date:20140625

On 25 Jun 2014 at 5:44, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

 getting stuck for another decade with a Mustang that is still, at its
 core, the same vehicle it's been for the past 50 years just
 seems.backwards. 

Well said.  It's about time someone realized that this is where the 
automobile industry is stuck.

The modern ICEV is what the phono cartridge was in 1984 - an obsolete 
technology that's been refined until it performs 'way beyond what anyone 
would ever have expected of it.  It is a dead alley.  It only seems modern.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget

2014-06-25 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV



It's always a tough call to figure out how government spends it's money.   
Every department would LOVE to have an infinite budget.

I guess I've just grown unbelievably cynical about the government constantly 
crying they don't enough money then seeing first hand they waste
it instead of trying ..just a little...to do more with less.

I don't trust them anymore.   Not that I trust private industry more, Just that 
govt constantly cry wolf in order to get more funding so they don't
have to economize.

As far as road mileage tax is concerned,  The truth is most of the road 
infrastructure is tremendously overbuilt for just cars and is built very strong 
for 105,000 lb trucks and not 3000 lb automobiles.    That is why roads cost so 
much.   However the trucking industry is very competitive and would fight
like crazy to avoid paying a penny more. 

But the reason they are constantly trying to get bigger trucks on the road is 
because the rail industry is ridiculously lost in the 19th century and they
are so inbred they don't even want to deal with ainything less than a complete 
freight car.    For an exercise in frustration, try shipping a 400 lb item
via rail.   It's near impossible unless you own a sawmill, coal field, or oil 
refinery.     These people don't even know what competition is anymore.   


Ergo, bigger and bigger trucks, ergo more expensive roads and bridges, ergo 
trying to stick the bill onto the average taxpayerthen on down the
food chain to the poor EV driver.

God forbid we would have decent rail transportation instead of constantly 
raising the weight limit for trucks over and over, but asking for sanity appears

to be insane.

As weird as it sounds, IMHO the answer to the road tax is improved intercity 
rail freight.

My two ...(non fuel tax) cents anyway.


On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:02 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
 


Increased trucking costs would be shared by all, operators in lower pay or
pay increases, owners and stockholders in higher cost and lower margins,
and consumers in higher end cost and shipping cost, or taxpayers pay after
the fact when the infrastructure is already deteriorated instead of kept
well.  But roads need care.

I suppose the last point of taxation makes the least sense to me - as a
general tax.

It seems just fine to me that it is spread around among many as we all
benefit and so need to cover the cost of road building to some extent.  It
is a distortion to lay it all at the feet of one participant or another
whoever has the least clout.  I am not saying I know an answer, but I think
a road use tax of some sort is perhaps less of a distortion.

Maybe the point of greatest clout is where the tax should go - they would
be in more of a position so require that the money be used well.  However,
this troubles me because I think the owners and shareholders care the least
about the infrastructure.  Influence almost always makes for a way to get
more money, but not to spread it around

Anyway we all like to quibble about this, and I wish we would move along
quickly rather than dither over it.  It probably works out one way or
another.


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 06/24/2014 06:57 PM, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:

 The gas tax was effective many years ago. It is insufficient now. Electric
 cars are only a fraction of one percent of the vehicles on the roads. A
 simple survey of the patterns of damaged paving on our roads will
 demonstrate that automobiles are not damaging our streets. The roads are
 damaged by heavy trucks. The automobiles, whether ICE, EV or hybrid,
 should
 not be singled out for road maintenance funding. The trucks are carrying
 goods which benefit everyone. Therefore the gas tax should be maintained
 at
 present levels and a general sales tax increase should be enacted and
 designated for highway maintenance.  Perhaps the food for the families, or
 prescription medicines could be exempt. (As is done in Florida)

  Generally, I agree.  But the fuel tax is not a bad way to pay for roads.
  It used to work well before the value of the fixed tax was reduced due to
 inflation.  Even though they use much more fuel per mile, that doesn't
 really offset the damage done by trucks.  We should start with much higher
 fuel taxes that are some fraction of the fuel cost rather than a fixed
 amount per gallon.  I fail to understand why that is and has been such a
 political impossibility. People that worry about EVs and other light
 vehicles paying their fair share either fail to understand the problem or
 they are dishonest.  Neither is desirable in our officials.
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-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain

Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road (Raise it!)

 road wear is not the only social negative caused by vehicles.
 ... noise and air pollution are pretty close to the top.
 EVs have a positive impact on these factors.

Here's how we say it on this web page:
http://aprs.org/EV-and-gas-taxes.html

EV's are getting free ride on the highways, but are paying a huge
environmental benefit.
Gas cars are paying for the roads, but are getting a free ride on the
environmental damage they cause.

Therefore ANY tax added to EVs to pay for the roads MUST in FAIRNESS also
be added to gas cars to pay for their environmental cost.  So, Raise the
gas tax!  And add an Environmental tax on gas.  Then, it is only fair that
we EV's be willing to pay the increase to cover the roads, but we don't
pay the environmental tax.

The federal gas tax has been about 1 cent per mile (19 cents per gallon
for a 19 MPG car) for decades.   Seems reasonable to at least double it to
20 cents per gallon to account for the more than 40 MPG we are headed for.
That way,  it remains about 1 cent per mile for road tax.

We EV's can pay that 1 cent/mile too for road use.  But now add on another
1c per mile to gas cars for the Environmental and carbon emissions to make
them pay for the damage they are causing.  But EV's don't pay this
environmental tax because 93% run on renewable carbon free energy and that
figure only improves as the grid gets cleaner.
See http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html

Now that equates to a 40 cent rise in gas tax and a 1 cent per mile tax on
EV's.

Imagine trying to get the me-first-screw-everyone-else voters to approve
that!

Bob, WB4aPR


,  then that 1 cent per mile increase would be reasonable to chargmight
translate to
Sure it is nice if we take public incentives to encourage us to drive
EV's, but we must also avoid EV-animosity when the gas drivers feel we are
getting an unfair benefit.
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget

2014-06-25 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

To continue on the point I was making about rail infrastructure being 
hopelessly lost in the 19th century, here is an interesting read.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/us/chicago-train-congestion-slows-whole-country.html?pagewanted=all_r=0
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[EVDL] 1925 'T'

2014-06-25 Thread Electric Blue auto convertions via EV

I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the Kennedy 
Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will be putting 
on this summer. LOLOLOL  No range, no speed, just move it on  off the stage 
..guess whos paying for this??  can you say Tax payers..what a country  
LOLOL 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: I Want An EV Instead Of A 2015 Mustang-ice What both cars mean

Our definitions of obsolete must differ. In my book, neither are obsolete. 

Far from being obsolete in 1984, phono cartridges are still not obsolete, have 
been showing double digit growth, and are part of the most high end sound 
systems. I'm not aware of any upcoming technology to replace them, unless you 
consider lasers as a future replacement. But that doesn't make them obsolete.

And while electric drive vehicles will likely replace many ICEs, it will be 
many years before they could be considered obsolete, or when their sales are 
equivalent to horseshoe sales for transportation.


Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 25, 2014, at 6:27 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 On 25 Jun 2014 at 5:44, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
 
 getting stuck for another decade with a Mustang that is still, at its
 core, the same vehicle it's been for the past 50 years just
 seems.backwards. 
 
 Well said.  It's about time someone realized that this is where the 
 automobile industry is stuck.
 
 The modern ICEV is what the phono cartridge was in 1984 - an obsolete 
 technology that's been refined until it performs 'way beyond what anyone 
 would ever have expected of it.  It is a dead alley.  It only seems modern.
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
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[EVDL] gas tax

2014-06-25 Thread Electric Blue auto convertions via EV



The feds ant to raise the gas tax, OK do so, then the states will do it, they 
always do, now gas prices ar at an all time high, OK thats fine . Dont let the 
keystone pipe line go through,thats fine to, I get more work, thats great. When 
you put a tax on a thing they will always find a way to spend the money on 
something else, and say they dont have any money for road work, It always 
happens . 

So the poor slob that wants to go back  forth to work cant any more, he cant 
afford the gas. EVs and ICEs arnt the problem, congress is .. get rid of the 
lifers in Congress, elect new people  and start to put money where it will do 
the most good..Then we can stop pointing fingers, remember theres always 3 
pointing back at you 

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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget

2014-06-25 Thread Cal Frye via EV



 Lawrence Winiarski via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
 June 25, 2014 9:53 AM

 As weird as it sounds, IMHO the answer to the road tax is improved
 intercity rail freight.

 My two ...(non fuel tax) cents anyway.

Absolutely! Rail from city to city, local (electric!) delivery vehicles
to the destination from the city hub. Works for passengers, too, but I
won't get on my Amtrak soapbox here, I promise.


Best regards,
-- Cal Frye, www.calfrye.com
/Be an Internet Sceptic/  Stop. Think. Connect.
www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the
Internet as you are crossing the street!

A time comes when silence is betrayal. -- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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[EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little
sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for
trucks and road warriors).

BUT!

There is a future for hydrogen in utility scale applications for the
eventual Bazgigawatts of periodic solar and wind excess into electrolysis
of water to hydrogen. Think of it as energy storage (the holy grail of
renewables).

But then creating a HUGE infrastructure from zero to distribute this
hydrogen source in tiny little buckets to burn everywhere in tiny amounts
in millions of cars makes no sense, when the utilities can far, far more
easily burn it right there at their plants to provide a continuum of
electricity at night and/or low wind.

Another way to look at it is to have the utilities burn the excess hydrogen
to make electricity and use the grid to distribute that electricity to
EV’s. That is a far easier way to distribute “hydrogen stored energy”
since EV’s and the grid distribution already exist everywhere.

Of course, there will always be a market for SOME hydrogen fueled cars and
trucks that must do long trips or continuous road travel. No question.
But that is something like only 10% or our transportation energy… and easy
to implement along the interstates…

P.S. There is another thing I just became aware of. Other countries
versus the US with respect to Energy Storage.. Not everything is equal.
Germany has a different perspective on storage (hydrogen) for many
reasons… they have no natural gas like we do. They cannot use natural
gas plants to make-up solar/wind shortages. Where we view “storage” as a
short-term (max 12 hour overnight) need, they view storage as a long-term
requirement and not just for backup electricity, but for weeks or months…

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

How so? Aren't productions there funded by private donations?

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 25, 2014, at 7:10 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions  via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the 
 Kennedy Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will be 
 putting on this summer. LOLOLOL  No range, no speed, just move it on  off 
 the stage ..guess whos paying for this??  can you say Tax payers..what a 
 country  LOLOL 
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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

2014-06-25 Thread Cal Frye via EV

A little bit of online research shows that about half their income comes
from ticket sales, half from grants and donations. Of the grants and
donations, about half is public, half private. So only 25% taxpayer
supported. Not quite as bad as you thought.

Best regards,
-- Cal Frye, www.calfrye.com
/Be an Internet Sceptic/ Stop. Think. Connect.
www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the
Internet as you are crossing the street!

Go ahead, make mistakes. But make new mistakes; don't keep making the
same old ones. -- Robert Page.

Mark Abramowitz via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
June 25, 2014 10:38 AM
How so? Aren't productions there funded by private donations?

Sent from my iPhone

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Electric Blue auto convertions via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
June 25, 2014 10:10 AM
I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the
Kennedy Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they
will be putting on this summer. LOLOLOL No range, no speed, just move
it on off the stage ..guess whos paying for this?? can you say Tax
payers..what a country LOLOL
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[EVDL] No politics, please

Folks, a couple of threads here are edging into politics.  There be dragons!

Let's not get into flame wars.  Please check your political views at the 
door and stick to discussing EVs here.  

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

That's certainly possible, but the online sources I looked at indicate that the
taxpayer-funding is for operating the facility, not the programs.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Cal Frye c...@calfrye.com wrote:

A little bit of online research shows that about half their income comes from
ticket sales, half from grants and donations. Of the grants and donations,
about half is public, half private. So only 25% taxpayer supported. Not quite
as bad as you thought.

Best regards,
-- Cal Frye, www.calfrye.com
/Be an Internet Sceptic/ Stop. Think. Connect.
www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the
Internet as you are crossing the street!

Go ahead, make mistakes. But make new mistakes; don't keep making the same
old ones. -- Robert Page.

compose-unknown-contact.jpgMark Abramowitz via EV June 25, 2014
10:38 AM
How so? Aren't productions there funded by private donations?

Sent from my iPhone

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compose-unknown-contact.jpgElectric Blue auto convertions via EV
June 25, 2014 10:10 AM
I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the
Kennedy Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will
be putting on this summer. LOLOLOL No range, no speed, just move it on
off the stage ..guess whos paying for this?? can you say Tax
payers..what a country LOLOL
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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

I repeat - no politics, please.  (That's what this is really about.)

It's off topic, too.

The original post in this thread was provocative - I might even say 
trollish.  Don't take the bait.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

2014-06-25 Thread Martin WINLOW via EV

Surely there is a more efficient way of storing excess electric power than
this?! Even pumping water up into reservoirs and then dropping again through
turbines (like the UK national grid does in wales
http://www.fhc.co.uk/ffestiniog.htm ) must be more efficient? Wont work very
well in the Great Plains but most other places should have some hilly bits. MW

On 25 Jun 2014, at 15:36, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

BUT!

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

2014-06-25 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Actually it can work fine in some flat areas.  Anywhere there is mining, 
higher sections of old excvations can be flooded and drained down to 
lower excavations, then pumped back up later.  I read an article on this 
sometime back.  Search for pumped storage mines and you'll get lots of 
examples.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 25-Jun-14 8:28:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Surely there is a more efficient way of storing excess electric power 
than this?! Even pumping water up into reservoirs and then dropping 
again through turbines (like the UK national grid does in wales 
http://www.fhc.co.uk/ffestiniog.htm ) must be more efficient? Wont work 
very well in the Great Plains but most other places should have some 
hilly bits. MW



On 25 Jun 2014, at 15:36, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

 Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes 
little

 sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
 business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed 
for

 trucks and road warriors).



 BUT!



 There is a future for hydrogen in utility scale applications for the
 eventual Bazgigawatts of periodic solar and wind excess into 
electrolysis
 of water to hydrogen. Think of it as energy storage (the holy grail 
of

 renewables).



 But then creating a HUGE infrastructure from zero to distribute this
 hydrogen source in tiny little buckets to burn everywhere in tiny 
amounts
 in millions of cars makes no sense, when the utilities can far, far 
more

 easily burn it right there at their plants to provide a continuum of
 electricity at night and/or low wind.



 Another way to look at it is to have the utilities burn the excess 
hydrogen
 to make electricity and use the grid to distribute that electricity 
to

 EV’s. That is a far easier way to distribute “hydrogen stored energy”
 since EV’s and the grid distribution already exist everywhere.



 Of course, there will always be a market for SOME hydrogen fueled 
cars and
 trucks that must do long trips or continuous road travel. No 
question.
 But that is something like only 10% or our transportation energy… and 
easy

 to implement along the interstates…



 P.S. There is another thing I just became aware of. Other countries
 versus the US with respect to Energy Storage.. Not everything is 
equal.

 Germany has a different perspective on storage (hydrogen) for many
 reasons… they have no natural gas like we do. They cannot use natural
 gas plants to make-up solar/wind shortages. Where we view “storage” 
as a
 short-term (max 12 hour overnight) need, they view storage as a 
long-term
 requirement and not just for backup electricity, but for weeks or 
months…




 
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014




 Just some thoughts.

 Bob, WB4aPR
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Re: [EVDL] gas tax

Somebody has to pay for road repairs. Pipelines are a different issue.
I think government is the perfect way to manage common resources and
service like roads.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

The feds ant to raise the gas tax, OK do so, then the states will do it,
they always do, now gas prices ar at an all time high, OK thats fine . Dont
let the keystone pipe line go through,thats fine to, I get more work, thats
great. When you put a tax on a thing they will always find a way to spend
the money on something else, and say they dont have any money for road
work, It always happens .

So the poor slob that wants to go back forth to work cant any more, he
cant afford the gas. EVs and ICEs arnt the problem, congress is .. get rid
of the lifers in Congress, elect new people and start to put money where
it will do the most good..Then we can stop pointing fingers, remember
theres always 3 pointing back at you

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*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

2014-06-25 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

...that switching to EV's for commuting does nothing to solve 
congestion...


Me, too.  But at least when stuck in a jam, EV's aren't belching out 
pollution :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 25-Jun-14 8:55:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)


 About the only solution I can think of [wont] fly politically...
 charge a ... license renewal fee based on the weight of the vehicle.


Yes, but some people use the roads a lot more than others. It is better
if we balance cost, for use.

Most of us don't like the VMT (vehicle miles traveled) and tax-counters
inside the vehicle. On the other hand, Toll roads and their rapid
electronic payment possibilities do provide a pay-as-you-use system and
also serve to discourage congestion.

All my excitement and commitment to EV's is somewhat embarrassingly
weakened by the observation that switching to EV's for commuting does
nothing to solve congestion and encourage public transit.

My preferred solution there is to provide free 120v outlets on 2 hour
timers at Park-N-ride lots for EV's. EV drivers get free electricity 
(10
mile replenishment) as an incentive to carpool/transit from the lots 
and

the cost to the state is a 40 cent incentive per vehicle (kept off the
road). This 40 cents is a BARGAIN compared to the nearly $6 per DAY 
some

states give as incentive to take transit.

See http://aprs.org/Energy/Charging/ParkNride.doc

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

On Jun 25, 2014, at 7:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by needed for trucks and road warriors, but those
that actually have to put up the money would disagree about the strength of the
business model for hydrogen cars.

Or do you have some expertise in business that I'm not aware of?

BUT!

Here, you are correct.

Again, where do you get makes no sense?

Certainly this is a way to allow EV drivers to use renewable energy when not
able to charge from solar generated power at home.

Energy storage is about scale and storage time. In some uses, just like for
vehicles, batteries make sense.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

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Re: [EVDL] No politics, please

I have run a few lists that were open except regarding attitude and
politeness.  That works pretty well.

I am interested in other peoples politics, but not getting hollered at.  It
is the flames, not the ideas that are a problem,  not so?


On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 10:43 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Folks, a couple of threads here are edging into politics.  There be
 dragons!

 Let's not get into flame wars.  Please check your political views at the
 door and stick to discussing EVs here.

 Thanks.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (trucking)

 Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes
 little sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their
 garage).  The business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it
 is needed for trucks and road warriors).

 I'm not sure what you mean by needed for trucks and road warriors

Long haul Trucks and travelers need to drive long distances in 8 hours.
That is a range of about 500 miles with as little time lost in re-fueling.
It will never make sense to try to make an EV do this job by carrying a 500
mile range battery for such continuous use, so some kind of fast-refueling
chemical fuel will always be best for these applications.

Hydrogen which can be generated (though inefficiently) from 100% renewable
and excess renewable solar and wind energy fills this niche without any
reliance on carbon.  And though it makes no sense to try to deliver hydrogen
to 600 million car tanks (most of which can do fine with a 50 mile daily
battery) it does make sense to provide hydrogen refueling along the
interstates for routine long-distance transportation in a future carbon free
world.

 but those that actually have to put up the money
 would disagree about... the business model for hydrogen cars.

... True (my point) ... Until there are no more dead dinosaurs and no other
solution for carbon-free 100% renewable long distance transportation left.

We need to be designing for the future, not racing to the bottom line until
it is too late to peacefully effect change.

Bob, Wb4APR
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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

2014-06-25 Thread Alan Brinkman via EV

Wayne,

How about a 1927 Ford Track T rat rod? Electric even!

eBay item number:   181442550341

I saw this yesterday on E-bay, and some other interesting electric vehicles as 
well. I have no financial interest in this vehicle.

Alan

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Electric Blue auto 
convertions via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:10 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

^I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the Kennedy 
Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will be ^putting 
on this summer. LOLOLOL  No range, no speed, just move it on  off the stage ..

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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

2014-06-25 Thread Matthew Park house via EV

And what is the problem with a few stage hands rolling this Model T vehicle on 
and off stage?
Why does it need to be self- propelling?

Matthew Parkhouse, RN
hobomatt@ aol.com



 On 25 Jun 2557 BE, at 10:28, Alan Brinkman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Wayne,
 
 How about a 1927 Ford Track T rat rod? Electric even!
 
 eBay item number:   181442550341
 
 I saw this yesterday on E-bay, and some other interesting electric vehicles 
 as well. I have no financial interest in this vehicle.
 
 Alan
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Electric Blue auto 
 convertions via EV
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:10 AM
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: [EVDL] 1925 'T'
 
 ^I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the 
 Kennedy Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will be 
 ^putting on this summer. LOLOLOL  No range, no speed, just move it on  off 
 the stage ..
 
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Re: [EVDL] gas tax (EV transmission lines, not oil pipelines)

Bob,

One high priority reason we have AC transmission is due the difficulties
sending DC over long distances. It is the old Edison Tesla war brought to
the 21st century. Fortunately, solar is fairly abundant all over.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

Somebody has to pay for road repairs.
Pipelines are a different issue.

Rather than spending $billons of dollars on a pipeline monument to the
past, it is better to make that same investment into electrical
transmission lines for now and the future instead.

The only thing holding back a near infinite supply of FREE renewable
energy is the lack of the long haul transmission lines to get the solar
and wind energy from where it is abundant (the plains) to where it is
needed. Pipelines do the same thing for oil but are an ultimate dead-end.

Anyone want to invest in finding a way to send copper conductors through
old pipelines to convert obsolete pipelines to underground DC transmission
lines?

Bob, Wb4aPR
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] No politics, please

On 25 Jun 2014 at 12:17, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

 I am interested in other peoples politics, but not getting hollered at.
  It is the flames, not the ideas that are a problem,  not so? 

Some places have lively, animated, intelligent discussions about politics. 
(I hear that's the way it goes in France, but haven't experienced it.)  

Others just hunker down and flail at each other from within their respective 
with us or against us camps.  That seems to be the American way now, and 
in fact it seems to be overspreading most of the world.  

I've been moderating the EVDL to one extent or another for a good 15 years 
or more.  There is a remarkable degree of civility here, but experience has 
shown me that it breaks down pretty quickly when partisan politics comes up. 

These threads aren't quite there, but they're dancing in that direction.  

Yes, there's a political component to EVs.  That's inevitable, since some 
governments encourage EV development and uptake with political action of 
various types.  But in the interest of peace (and not seeing subscribers 
depart en masse as has happened in the past), I ask that EVDLers please 
check their partisan politics at the door.   

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

2014-06-25 Thread Pestka, Dennis J via EV

Hey don't say that too load !
Wayne should make a pretty decent profit on this one.

Dennis

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Park house via 
EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:39 AM
To: Alan Brinkman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

And what is the problem with a few stage hands rolling this Model T vehicle on 
and off stage?
Why does it need to be self- propelling?

Matthew Parkhouse, RN
hobomatt@ aol.com

 On 25 Jun 2557 BE, at 10:28, Alan Brinkman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Wayne,

 How about a 1927 Ford Track T rat rod? Electric even!

 eBay item number:   181442550341

 I saw this yesterday on E-bay, and some other interesting electric vehicles 
 as well. I have no financial interest in this vehicle.

 Alan

 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Electric Blue auto 
 convertions via EV
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:10 AM
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

 ^I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the 
 Kennedy Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will be 
 ^putting on this summer. LOLOLOL  No range, no speed, just move it on  off 
 the stage ..

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 20, Issue 35

2014-06-25 Thread K O via EV

Steven ! EXCELLENT opportunistic EV promotion..I Knew that sound right away but 
we aren't 'sposed to be discussing it here ;- }

As to mileage tax for roads in CALIFORNIA, the state government is very good at 
using tax money for roads on other projects, so the roads are a wreck. Mileage 
tax is probably inevitable but I guarrentee that won't improve roads here!

 
I don't shop where I can't charge.
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Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

2014-06-25 Thread Dennis Miles via EV

the stage-hands usually pull vehicles onto the stage with a rope if the
scene calls for a movement onto the stage or off during a scene. But
letting the car move itself is a simple task electrically.  And it is not
the 19 th Century, it is the 21 st...

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Hey don't say that too load !
 Wayne should make a pretty decent profit on this one.

 Dennis

 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Park
 house via EV
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:39 AM
 To: Alan Brinkman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1925 'T'

 And what is the problem with a few stage hands rolling this Model T
 vehicle on and off stage?
 Why does it need to be self- propelling?

 Matthew Parkhouse, RN
 hobomatt@ aol.com



  On 25 Jun 2557 BE, at 10:28, Alan Brinkman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
  Wayne,
 
  How about a 1927 Ford Track T rat rod? Electric even!
 
  eBay item number:   181442550341
 
  I saw this yesterday on E-bay, and some other interesting electric
 vehicles as well. I have no financial interest in this vehicle.
 
  Alan
 
  -Original Message-
  From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Electric Blue
 auto convertions via EV
  Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:10 AM
  To: ev@lists.evdl.org
  Subject: [EVDL] 1925 'T'
 
  ^I will be getting a 1925 model T truck to convert, of all people the
 Kennedy Center of preforming arts in DC. They want it for a play they will
 be ^putting on this summer. LOLOLOL  No range, no speed, just move it on 
 off the stage ..
 
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 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

2014-06-25 Thread Geoff Pullinger via EV

On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

BUT!

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

I saw an article last week about a couple of scientists who thought
hydrogen could be transported much more easily as ammonia (NH3). They
have suposedly discovered a method to convert ammonia to hydrogen with
out using catalysts and with good efficiency. I can not find the
article now but sounded like a game changer - if true.

Geoff Pullinger
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Re: [EVDL] What's your sign?

Fred,
Your suggestion: a cone with a sign EV parking only sounds good.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of fred via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:12 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] What's your sign?

Okay, let's get our minds out of the 60s and 70s and into today's
century and the world of the EV.

I am hoping to attend the Orlando Maker Faire in September 2014 at the
Orlando Science Center. Conveniently there is a parking structure across
the street with either 2 or 3 EVSE stations on the ChargePoint network,
of which I am a card-carrying member in good standing. I've been in
communications with the two organizations and have been allowed to use
the parking garage, even though it is off-limits to exhibitors.
Apparently EV drivers qualify for one of these.

From the photos I've been provided by the contact person and other
information, the spots are in a convenient location to be ICE'd in short
order. I plan to arrive near dawn on the Saturday of the event but
that's no assurance of an open EVSE, of course. The organizer has asked
if I think a traffic cone placed in the spot would be a good idea. She
believes that an ICE driver would be disinclined to move it, while an EV
driver would do so. I suggested that an EV driver would also believe
that the space is unavailable for an undisclosed reason.

I further suggested that the cone could have a sign atop reading EV
parking only and an EV driver would then move the cone to park.

That's as far as the thought processes in my alleged mind were able to
travel on this subject. I now request from the massive wisdom of the
EVDL your suggestions for affordable, easily implemented options to
prevent ICEing of an EV space, where parking space is a premium in
general. The easily implemented part is important, I believe, in the
short run, in order to make it happen that much more quickly, but it's
also possible that the Orlando Science Center would want to be aware of
a more permanent, perhaps-less-easily implemented option as well. From
our frame of reference, EV parking isn't an issue that should go away
and it should be easier to manage over the long run. I have until
September to solve my problem that may not be a problem, while the OSC
has from today onward to approach a solution.

The people with whom I have been in contact have been quite supportive
and it's a good feeling to be on the receiving end of such assistance.

fred
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

2014-06-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV


switching to EV's for commuting does nothing to solve congestion...


Rick Woodbury's Tango EV does. See www.commutercars.com

The Tango is a 4-wheel car that's only 3 feet wide and 8 feet long. It's 
the same size as a motorcycle. Four of them can park in the same parking 
place that holds just one normal car (4x the parking). They can 
lane-split on the highway (doubling the capacity of the roads). They can 
park crossways on a railroad flat car, allowing commuter trains with 
side drive-on / drive-off ramps.


--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
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[EVDL] Pig in A Poke?:Car Charging Grp takes Tesla up on offer

TeslaOpensDoortoItsTechnology
Good news, or did Car Charging Group get a pig in a poke.

Along with many others, I was happy to hear about Tesla opening up their
intellectual property and making it available to others. But I've yet to find
any details about the Tesla promise not to enforce their patents if used in
good faith. I've seen reference to equating their action with releasing open
source software. But there have been several types of open source software.
Which type of license are these patents being released under? Can these
licenses to use the Tesla patents be revoked by Tesla?

Is there a safe path forward for companies like Car Charging Group wanting to
take advantage of the release of Tesla patents?

Anyone have any information on this?

June 24, 2014 in Electric Drive, EVs, Infrastructure, Technology by Rich
Piellisch | No Comments
Car Charging Group Says Immediately It Will Integrate It with Blink
Miami Beach-based Car Charging Group says it will take up Elon Musk’s
proclamation that Tesla Motors won’t enforce its many electric vehicle patents,
and will integrate Tesla’s EV charging technology into Blink EV charging
stations.

The Tesla wall of patents is no more.
CarCharging notes that Tesla’s Model S currently includes an adaptor for SAE’s
J1772 connector, which is the standard for public EV charging stations in North
America. CarCharging expects to take this interchangeability further,
“incorporating the technology of Tesla Motors’ charging port into Blink
charging stations” – and accommodating as well as the J1772 combo that allows
DC fast charging.
“By integrating these charging ports and connectors with its current J1772 and
CHAdeMO connectors, CarCharging will expand the charging options currently
available for EV drivers,” states a CarCharging release.
‘A Solution Compatible for All EV Drivers’
“Like Tesla Motors, CarCharging believes that the market potential for electric
vehicles is vast and we are dedicated to doing all that we can to assist in its
acceleration,” said CarCharging founder and CEO Michael Farkas said in a
release. “By sharing its technologies, Tesla Motors provides CarCharging with
the ability to leverage all of the locations in its portfolio and offer a
solution that is compatible for all EV drivers, which is a win-win for the
drivers and the industry.”

Musk wants a nicer world.
Tesla chief Elon Musk said earlier this month that patents prominently
displayed at bits Palo Alto, Calif. headquarters have been removed, and that
“Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith,
wants to use our technology.”
“Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport,”
Musk said in a blog post. “If we clear a path to the creation of compelling
electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property landmines behind us to
inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary to that goal.”
Musk Wants More EVs for a Better Planet
“Electric car programs (or programs for any vehicle that doesn’t burn
hydrocarbons) at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent,
constituting an average of far less than 1% of their total vehicle sales,” Musk
wrote.
“Given that annual new vehicle production is approaching 100 million per year
and the global fleet is approximately 2 billion cars, it is impossible for
Tesla to build electric cars fast enough to address the carbon crisis. By the
same token, it means the market is enormous.
“Our true competition is not the small trickle of non-Tesla electric cars being
produced, but rather the enormous flood of gasoline cars pouring out of the
world’s factories every day.”

---
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Source: Car Charging Group Tesla with Fleets Fuels follow-up

inShare

Posted in Electric Drive, EVs, Infrastructure, Technology and tagged
CarCharging, Tesla Motors.
LeaveaRepl

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

I've heard of this many times, but personally I've real concerns about the use
of ammonia.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Geoff Pullinger via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little
sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for
trucks and road warriors).

BUT!

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

Bob, WB4aPR
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I saw an article last week about a couple of scientists who thought hydrogen
could be transported much more easily as ammonia (NH3). They have suposedly
discovered a method to convert ammonia to hydrogen with out using catalysts
and with good efficiency. I can not find the article now but sounded like a
game changer - if true.

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

2014-06-25 Thread Dennis Miles via EV

The difficulty in using Ammonia is, the ammonia used is Anhydrous Ammonia
100% and that is deadly poison at only a few percent when breathed.
Household ammonia is less than 5% concentration in water and not useable in
the process. Forget It !! I don't want to certainly die by poisoning in a
minor collision. Hasm protocol calls for an evacuation of 3 mile radius in
the event of an Anhydrous ammonia spill...

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

USA

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Geoff Pullinger via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little
sense compared to EV's (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for
trucks and road warriors).

BUT!

Another way to look at it is to have the utilities burn the excess
hydrogen
to make electricity and use the grid to distribute that electricity to
EV's. That is a far easier way to distribute hydrogen stored energy
since EV's and the grid distribution already exist everywhere.

P.S. There is another thing I just became aware of. Other countries
versus the US with respect to Energy Storage.. Not everything is equal.
Germany has a different perspective on storage (hydrogen) for many
reasons... they have no natural gas like we do. They cannot use natural
gas plants to make-up solar/wind shortages. Where we view storage as a
short-term (max 12 hour overnight) need, they view storage as a long-term
requirement and not just for backup electricity, but for weeks or months...

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-
storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

I saw an article last week about a couple of scientists who thought
hydrogen could be transported much more easily as ammonia (NH3). They have
suposedly discovered a method to convert ammonia to hydrogen with out using
catalysts and with good efficiency. I can not find the article now but
sounded like a game changer - if true.

Geoff Pullinger

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

2014-06-25 Thread Dennis Miles via EV

Sorry, that is Hazardous Material Handling protocol.

*Dennis Lee Miles *

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Dennis Miles dmiles33...@gmail.com wrote:

Ha
z
m
at
protocol calls for an evacuation of 3 mile radius in the event of an
Anhydrous ammonia spill...

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 %28863%29%20944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

USA

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Geoff Pullinger via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

BUT!

But then creating a HUGE infrastructure from zero to distribute this
hydrogen source in tiny little buckets to burn everywhere in tiny
amounts
in millions of cars makes no sense, when the utilities can far, far more
easily burn it right there at their plants to provide a continuum of
electricity at night and/or low wind.

Of course, there will always be a market for SOME hydrogen fueled cars
and
trucks that must do long trips or continuous road travel. No question.
But that is something like only 10% or our transportation energy... and
easy
to implement along the interstates...

P.S. There is another thing I just became aware of. Other countries
versus the US with respect to Energy Storage.. Not everything is equal.
Germany has a different perspective on storage (hydrogen) for many
reasons... they have no natural gas like we do. They cannot use natural
gas plants to make-up solar/wind shortages. Where we view storage as a
short-term (max 12 hour overnight) need, they view storage as a long-term
requirement and not just for backup electricity, but for weeks or months...

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/06/energy-
storage-a-different-view-from-germany?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-June24-2014

Just some thoughts.

I saw an article last week about a couple of scientists who thought
hydrogen could be transported much more easily as ammonia (NH3). They have
suposedly discovered a method to convert ammonia to hydrogen with out using
catalysts and with good efficiency. I can not find the article now but
sounded like a game changer - if true.

Geoff Pullinger

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Re: [EVDL] gas tax (EV transmission lines, not oil pipelines)

 [the main] reason we have AC transmission
 is due the difficulties  sending DC over long distances.

But for very long distances, high voltage DC now wins.  At very long
distances AC transmission is inefficient due to capacitance (and much
shorter when underground or underwater).  AC also has additional Peak vs RMS
IsquareR losses.

On the other hand, DC loads the line capacitance once, and then it is no
longer a problem and it can operate at the peak voltage rating of the line,
not the average.  Hence less overall loss for DC for the same conductor.

But DC conversion does cost more.  Hence the tradeoff.  DC is now needed for
very long point-to-point transmission which is what we now need to get
inter-regional transmission of power from Wind.   (Solar is not involved
because it can be generated anywhere at the load for less cost than trying
to bring it in 2000 miles from Arizona).

Bob

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
 Somebody has to pay for road repairs.
 Pipelines are a different issue.

Rather than spending $billons of dollars on a pipeline monument to the
past, it is better to make that same investment into electrical
transmission lines for now and the future instead.

The only thing holding back a near infinite supply of FREE renewable
energy is the lack of the long haul transmission lines to get the solar
and wind energy from where it is abundant (the plains) to where it is
needed.  Pipelines do the same thing for oil but are an ultimate dead-end.

Anyone want to invest in finding a way to send copper conductors through
old pipelines to convert obsolete pipelines to underground DC transmission
lines?

Bob, Wb4aPR
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-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
Dalai Lama

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

And that is also why I am so happy about the success of another EV,
the e-Bike. You do not always need 3,000 pounds of dead weight
around you to go for an errand or to bring your laptop to work.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:48 AM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

 switching to EV's for commuting does nothing to solve congestion...

Rick Woodbury's Tango EV does. See www.commutercars.com

The Tango is a 4-wheel car that's only 3 feet wide and 8 feet long. It's

the same size as a motorcycle. Four of them can park in the same parking

place that holds just one normal car (4x the parking). They can 
lane-split on the highway (doubling the capacity of the roads). They can

park crossways on a railroad flat car, allowing commuter trains with 
side drive-on / drive-off ramps.

-- 
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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[EVDL] Anti-icing methods : What's your sign?

2014-06-25 Thread Bruce EVangel Parmenter via EV

In the early 1990's when I first got outlets put in at a work-site
parking spot in the middle of the hp Cupertino, CA parking lot for my EV
charging use, there was no painting or signage. I placed a cone with a
sign  Electric car only . But it was moved and or just plain ignored
(these were the early days of hate-talk radio totally dissing EVs,
etc.).

Later, I changed the sign on the cone to  reserved  and got better
results with less icing. I surmised the less you state what you are
doing, the better. Later still as I gained experience in handling ice'd
EV spots, I also used this  cone+ reserved  method when I coordinated
EVents with good results.

But at some EVents where I was there to give support, where it seemed
too likely to have the EV spot(s) ice'd, I would take more drastic
measures. One method was to have an ice on either side of the spot(s),
place the cones with  reserved  signage at the end of the empty EV
spot(s), and a yellow plastic caution-tape running between the two ice
bumpers that was parked on either side of the EV spot(s). The tape was
also tied to the cones so it would be a lot of effort for the ice driver
to move or run-over them.

A worst case method I saw at other EVents was to get a car (EV or not)
to park in the EV spot(s) with a cone and  reserved  signage at the rear
of the car to prevent icing, and be able to move their car out when
charging is needed. In practice, an EV that showed up at the EVent
wanting a charge, would drive the owner of the parked car in the EV spot
to the EV spot, move the car out of the spot for the EV to charge, then
drive them both back to the EVent in the car that was parked in the EV
spot, ... repeat.


{brucedp.150m.com}




On Wed, Jun 25, 2014, at 11:11 AM, fred via EV wrote:
 Okay, let's get our minds out of the 60s and 70s and into today's century
 and the world of the EV.
 
 I am hoping to attend the Orlando Maker Faire in September 2014 at the
 Orlando Science Center. Conveniently there is a parking structure across
 the street with either 2 or 3 EVSE stations ...
 
 From the photos I've been provided by the contact person and other
 information, the spots are in a convenient location to be ICE'd in short
 order. I plan to arrive near dawn on the Saturday of the event but that's
 no assurance of an open EVSE, of course. The organizer has asked if I
 think a traffic cone placed in the spot would be a good idea. She
 believes that an ICE driver would be disinclined to move it, while an EV
 driver would do so. I suggested that an EV driver would also believe that
 the space is unavailable for an undisclosed reason.
 
 I further suggested that the cone could have a sign atop reading EV
 parking only and an EV driver would then move the cone to park ...
-

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

2014-06-25 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV

AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency 
of various fuels.  Their standard was an EV with the equivalent of 50 
MPG.  A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced from reformatted 
natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the equivalent of 30 mpg while 
hydrogen produced by electrolysis was the equivalent of 12 mpg.


There a number of technical problems with fuel cells:
1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours.  Since my average 
driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell every 60K 
miles.  Therefore, a different fuel cell construction technique would 
have to be used.
2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed to 
aid in acceleration.  Therefore, a faster way of transferring the 
proton through the electrolyte is needed.  Think of a proton as a 
person needed to run through air as opposed through water or molasses.
3) The storage of hydrogen to go 300 miles in a Toyota Camry needed 3 
specially carbon wound tanks where the internal pressures reached 700 
bar.  A bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch.  This equates to 5 tons per 
square inch in a 2 ton vehicle.  Catastrophic failures would be 
catastrophic.  The hydrogen, therefore, needs to be stored in a 
molecular sponge where the hydrogen freely flows in and out of storage 
without much energy inducements.  One real scheme required 800 degree 
Fahrenheit temperatures to release the hydrogen from storage.


Given the number of technical problems that need to be solved, I don't 
see hydrogen fuel celled vehicles coming into common use anytime soon.



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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

If you look at the sliced open Toyota FCV you will see two
Hydrogen tanks and in between a largish (slightly larger than the Prius'
hybrid) battery pack. So, one tank under the trunk and one under the
rear seat. The two front seats were directly over the fuel cell and the
front
of the vehicle had the electric drive.
As said before - when (not if) FCV fails, just rip out the tanks and
fuel cell and mount a large capacity battery and a charger. instant EV.

Note: since Hydrogen / Fuel Cell is a contentious issue, it is not
recommended to continue discussion of its merits  drawbacks, so let's
steer back the discussion to EVs.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency

of various fuels.  Their standard was an EV with the equivalent of 50 
MPG.  A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced from reformatted 
natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the equivalent of 30 mpg while

hydrogen produced by electrolysis was the equivalent of 12 mpg.

There a number of technical problems with fuel cells:
1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours.  Since my average 
driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell every 60K 
miles.  Therefore, a different fuel cell construction technique would 
have to be used.
2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed to 
aid in acceleration.  Therefore, a faster way of transferring the 
proton through the electrolyte is needed.  Think of a proton as a 
person needed to run through air as opposed through water or molasses.
3) The storage of hydrogen to go 300 miles in a Toyota Camry needed 3 
specially carbon wound tanks where the internal pressures reached 700 
bar.  A bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch.  This equates to 5 tons per 
square inch in a 2 ton vehicle.  Catastrophic failures would be 
catastrophic.  The hydrogen, therefore, needs to be stored in a 
molecular sponge where the hydrogen freely flows in and out of storage 
without much energy inducements.  One real scheme required 800 degree 
Fahrenheit temperatures to release the hydrogen from storage.

Given the number of technical problems that need to be solved, I don't 
see hydrogen fuel celled vehicles coming into common use anytime soon.


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[EVDL] EVhousing: Electric Car Ready Townhome, Apt, Studio, Cabana

2014-06-25 Thread brucedp5 via EV

% while I was searching, I came across several craigslist housing listings
touting how EV friendly they were. Several of these listings were ended by
the lister (assume it was rented), so below is only the ones that were
viable at the time of the searches.

Clearly, the EV movement has matured to the point where having EVSE is
good-for-business! %

WANT A DEAL!! WE'VE GOT ITSAVE OVER $1000 OFF RENT ...
1 day ago ... Electric Vehicle EV Charging Stations, Located Near Banner
Gateway Hospital MD Anderson, Apartments, Cat, Accepts Credit Card ...
https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/apa/4536627041.html

Largest Luxury Studios
6 days ago ... ... Storage Available*; Destination Cabanas in a Lush
Landscaped Alcove; Onsite Recycling Program; Smoke-Free Community; Electric
Vehicle ...
losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/apa/4528429372.html

Hollywood, Pasadena, Downtown within minutes
1 day ago ... ... Storage Available*; Destination Cabanas in a Lush
Landscaped Alcove; Onsite Recycling Program; Smoke-Free Community; Electric
Vehicle ...
losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/apa/4536658401.html

Burbank, Pasadena, Atwater Village, Glendale Luxury
20 hours ago ... Laundry Drop Off and Pick Up, Icis, Personal Onsite Storage
Available*, CA, Smoke-Free Community, Electric Vehicle EV Charging Stations,
...
losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/apa/4537552234.html

Brand New Tri-level 2/2.5 Luxurious Townhome w/ Attached Garage
Jun 12, 2014 ... Specially-upgraded 220v outlet dedicated for Electric
Vehicle charging 2nd Level - - Open living room, dining area, and kitchen
with laminate ...
sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/apa/4518159550.html

Electric Car Ready Hills Townhome w Views
Jun 16, 2014 ... Large 1749 sqft 4 level 3 bed 3 full bath townhouse with
bay views hill views, 2 car garage with your own private electric car ( EV
) Level 2 ...
sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/reb/4523018393.html

New Construction With Electric Car Charge!
3 hours ago ... $649900 / 4br - 2747ft² - New Construction With Electric Car
Charge! (Lake Oswego). image 1 · image 2 · image 3 · image 4 · image 5.
https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/reb/4538588640.html

For all EVLN posts use:
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{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] Pig in A Poke?:Car Charging Grp takes Tesla up on offer

I think you should ask Tesla. http://www.teslamotors.com/contact

I have left them a message to direct me to information in this regard. I
will report back if/when i get something.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

TeslaOpensDoortoItsTechnology
Good news, or did Car Charging Group get a pig in a poke.

Along with many others, I was happy to hear about Tesla opening up their
intellectual property and making it available to others. But I've yet to
find any details about the Tesla promise not to enforce their patents if
used in good faith. I've seen reference to equating their action with
releasing open source software. But there have been several types of open
source software. Which type of license are these patents being released
under? Can these licenses to use the Tesla patents be revoked by Tesla?

Is there a safe path forward for companies like Car Charging Group wanting
to take advantage of the release of Tesla patents?

Anyone have any information on this?

June 24, 2014 in Electric Drive, EVs, Infrastructure, Technology by Rich
Piellisch | No Comments
Car Charging Group Says Immediately It Will Integrate It with Blink
Miami Beach-based Car Charging Group says it will take up Elon Musk’s
proclamation that Tesla Motors won’t enforce its many electric vehicle
patents, and will integrate Tesla’s EV charging technology into Blink EV
charging stations.

The Tesla wall of patents is no more.
CarCharging notes that Tesla’s Model S currently includes an adaptor for
SAE’s J1772 connector, which is the standard for public EV charging
stations in North America. CarCharging expects to take this
interchangeability further, “incorporating the technology of Tesla Motors’
charging port into Blink charging stations” – and accommodating as well as
the J1772 combo that allows DC fast charging.
“By integrating these charging ports and connectors with its current J1772
and CHAdeMO connectors, CarCharging will expand the charging options
currently available for EV drivers,” states a CarCharging release.
‘A Solution Compatible for All EV Drivers’
“Like Tesla Motors, CarCharging believes that the market potential for
electric vehicles is vast and we are dedicated to doing all that we can to
assist in its acceleration,” said CarCharging founder and CEO Michael
Farkas said in a release. “By sharing its technologies, Tesla Motors
provides CarCharging with the ability to leverage all of the locations in
its portfolio and offer a solution that is compatible for all EV drivers,
which is a win-win for the drivers and the industry.”

Musk wants a nicer world.
Tesla chief Elon Musk said earlier this month that patents prominently
displayed at bits Palo Alto, Calif. headquarters have been removed, and
that “Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good
faith, wants to use our technology.”
“Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable
transport,” Musk said in a blog post. “If we clear a path to the creation
of compelling electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property
landmines behind us to inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary
to that goal.”
Musk Wants More EVs for a Better Planet
“Electric car programs (or programs for any vehicle that doesn’t burn
hydrocarbons) at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent,
constituting an average of far less than 1% of their total vehicle sales,”
Musk wrote.
“Given that annual new vehicle production is approaching 100 million per
year and the global fleet is approximately 2 billion cars, it is impossible
for Tesla to build electric cars fast enough to address the carbon crisis.
By the same token, it means the market is enormous.
“Our true competition is not the small trickle of non-Tesla electric cars
being produced, but rather the enormous flood of gasoline cars pouring out
of the world’s factories every day.”

---
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to purchase a subscription.
Source: Car Charging Group Tesla with Fleets Fuels follow-up

inShare

Posted in Electric Drive, EVs, Infrastructure, Technology and tagged
CarCharging, Tesla Motors.
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you

Re: [EVDL] gas tax (EV transmission lines, not oil pipelines)

I thought I²R heating was greater for DC. I am not an EE so this is not a
rhetorical comment.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

[the main] reason we have AC transmission
is due the difficulties sending DC over long distances.

But for very long distances, high voltage DC now wins. At very long
distances AC transmission is inefficient due to capacitance (and much
shorter when underground or underwater). AC also has additional Peak vs
RMS
IsquareR losses.

On the other hand, DC loads the line capacitance once, and then it is no
longer a problem and it can operate at the peak voltage rating of the line,
not the average. Hence less overall loss for DC for the same conductor.

But DC conversion does cost more. Hence the tradeoff. DC is now needed
for
very long point-to-point transmission which is what we now need to get
inter-regional transmission of power from Wind. (Solar is not involved
because it can be generated anywhere at the load for less cost than trying
to bring it in 2000 miles from Arizona).

Bob

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
Somebody has to pay for road repairs.
Pipelines are a different issue.

Rather than spending $billons of dollars on a pipeline monument to the
past, it is better to make that same investment into electrical
transmission lines for now and the future instead.

Anyone want to invest in finding a way to send copper conductors through
old pipelines to convert obsolete pipelines to underground DC transmission
lines?

--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
Dalai Lama

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

This works too - I have one and like it a lot
http://organictransit.com/ for a 50 mile round trip commute.
I still need someone to take care of the roads.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

And that is also why I am so happy about the success of another EV,
the e-Bike. You do not always need 3,000 pounds of dead weight
around you to go for an errand or to bring your laptop to work.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:48 AM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

switching to EV's for commuting does nothing to solve congestion...

Rick Woodbury's Tango EV does. See www.commutercars.com

The Tango is a 4-wheel car that's only 3 feet wide and 8 feet long. It's

the same size as a motorcycle. Four of them can park in the same parking

place that holds just one normal car (4x the parking). They can
lane-split on the highway (doubling the capacity of the roads). They can

park crossways on a railroad flat car, allowing commuter trains with
side drive-on / drive-off ramps.

--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

The story that gas tax is needed to pay for road maintenance and
construction is a fallacy,

most money for roads come from real estate taxes.

So, whether you own or rent a home, you pay for roads even if you have
no car.

Bicyclists are subsidizing roads for large trucks, since bicyclists pay
for the roads but

don't cause any wear. Remember that next time someone yells at you to
get off

the road because you are not paying for it

Off my soapbox now!

 

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
http://www.proxim.com 
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
http://www.cvandewater.infom 
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626



From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 4:23 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

 

This works too - I have one and like it a lot

http://organictransit.com/ for a 50 mile round trip commute.

I still need someone to take care of the roads.

 

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

And that is also why I am so happy about the success of another EV,
the e-Bike. You do not always need 3,000 pounds of dead weight
around you to go for an errand or to bring your laptop to work.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626 



-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:48 AM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

 switching to EV's for commuting does nothing to solve congestion...

Rick Woodbury's Tango EV does. See www.commutercars.com

The Tango is a 4-wheel car that's only 3 feet wide and 8 feet long. It's

the same size as a motorcycle. Four of them can park in the same parking

place that holds just one normal car (4x the parking). They can
lane-split on the highway (doubling the capacity of the roads). They can

park crossways on a railroad flat car, allowing commuter trains with
side drive-on / drive-off ramps.

--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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-- 

Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?  

Dalai Lama 

 

Tell me what it is you plan to do

With your one wild and precious life?

Mary Oliver, The summer day.

 

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html 

 

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

Warren Buffet

 

Michael E. Ross

(919) 550-2430 Land

(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones  Google
Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com 



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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

That real estate taxes cover roads is not true in North Carolina, although
a municipality can pile on with more tax. I don't think there is much
uniformity. In fact, here developers can get quite sweet deal and build
subdivisions of larger tracts, and pay very little towards infrastructure
beyond installing utilities. In my county developers pay almost nothing
for the schools that must be built to support the residents.

I am not saying this makes sense, but it is, once again, a case of who has
influence, and who has the most immediate incentive to seek influence. It
is no surprise that real estate developers covet seats on town councils and
zoning commissions.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

The story that gas tax is needed to pay for road maintenance and
construction is a fallacy,

most money for roads come from real estate taxes.

So, whether you own or rent a home, you pay for roads even if you have
no car.

Bicyclists are subsidizing roads for large trucks, since bicyclists pay
for the roads but

don't cause any wear. Remember that next time someone yells at you to
get off

the road because you are not paying for it

Off my soapbox now!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
http://www.cvandewater.infom
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 4:23 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working...(tolls and Park-N-ride)

This works too - I have one and like it a lot

http://organictransit.com/ for a 50 mile round trip commute.

I still need someone to take care of the roads.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

And that is also why I am so happy about the success of another EV,
the e-Bike. You do not always need 3,000 pounds of dead weight
around you to go for an errand or to bring your laptop to work.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626

switching to EV's for commuting does nothing to solve congestion...

Rick Woodbury's Tango EV does. See www.commutercars.com

The Tango is a 4-wheel car that's only 3 feet wide and 8 feet long. It's

the same size as a motorcycle. Four of them can park in the same parking

place that holds just one normal car (4x the parking). They can
lane-split on the highway (doubling the capacity of the roads). They can

park crossways on a railroad flat car, allowing commuter trains with
side drive-on / drive-off ramps.

___
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?

Dalai Lama

Tell me what it is you plan to do

With your one wild and precious life?

Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross

(919) 550-2430 Land

(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.

**

Sounds like a very old analysis.

Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your first 
clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But it's just not 
productive to focus on those as have all the negative Nellies for decades. 
I've heard over 30 years of can't, can't, can't about electric drive vehicles 
of all types. 

In the 80's, the agencies were saying that, too. They also said can't, can't, 
can't about cleaning up the air any further. So they got sued in federal court 
by a private citizen, who, to make a long story short, won. 

The air was supposed to get better until the early 90's, and then get worse due 
to growth. Check out the timing of clean air progress since the 80's, and also 
look at when the ZEV mandate was originally adopted.

So, do you want some cheese to go with your w(h)ine?



Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 25, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency of 
 various fuels.  Their standard was an EV with the equivalent of 50 MPG.  A 
 similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced from reformatted natural gas 
 and fed into a fuel cell, was the equivalent of 30 mpg while hydrogen 
 produced by electrolysis was the equivalent of 12 mpg.
 
 There a number of technical problems with fuel cells:
 1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours.  Since my average 
 driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell every 60K 
 miles.  Therefore, a different fuel cell construction technique would have to 
 be used.
 2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed to aid 
 in acceleration.  Therefore, a faster way of transferring the proton 
 through the electrolyte is needed.  Think of a proton as a person needed to 
 run through air as opposed through water or molasses.
 3) The storage of hydrogen to go 300 miles in a Toyota Camry needed 3 
 specially carbon wound tanks where the internal pressures reached 700 bar.  A 
 bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch.  This equates to 5 tons per square inch 
 in a 2 ton vehicle.  Catastrophic failures would be catastrophic.  The 
 hydrogen, therefore, needs to be stored in a molecular sponge where the 
 hydrogen freely flows in and out of storage without much energy inducements.  
 One real scheme required 800 degree Fahrenheit temperatures to release the 
 hydrogen from storage.
 
 Given the number of technical problems that need to be solved, I don't see 
 hydrogen fuel celled vehicles coming into common use anytime soon.
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

There are a number of you that think that this is a technology food fight. It's 
not. Any food fight is one way, and fortunately you're just shouting into your 
own echo chamber.

That's a good thing, because despite the ignorance being espoused (much like I 
hear from the climate change deniers), we are in trouble unless fuel cells are 
successful. It is just not feasible to meet clean air requirements with just 
battery electrics. Sorry, but it's true. Anyone with any air quality planning 
competence will tell you that. And even with fuel cells, there still exists a 
major challenge.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 25, 2014, at 5:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 Mark,
 Are the laws of Physics different in California?
 It is simply be design and following science that tells us that
 Hydrogen powered cars will never be cost-effective.
 Of course, a state can set up a grande grant-scheme and create
 an artificially unbalanced market that will collapse as soon as
 the money runs out or voters get fed up with the money being
 poured into a fallacy that is not sustainable.
 EVs have proven to be sustainable and efficient, they are 
 subsidized via tax breaks to sweeten the deal and ramp up
 the market faster. But the Physics of a BEV tells us that it is
 efficient and effective. Limited, maybe but good enough for
 about 95% of most people's trips.
 
 The situation is quite different for FCV and that is why even
 organizations that promote Fuel Cell development have pulled out of
 the unsustainable Hydrogen Fuel Cell development. (Except those that
 are more interested in grants than in practical applications and
 progress)
 We will see where Toyota lands, time will tell.
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz
 via EV
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:17 PM
 To: Peter Eckhoff; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
 
 Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.
 
 **
 
 Sounds like a very old analysis.
 
 Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your
 first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But
 it's just not productive to focus on those as have all the negative
 Nellies for decades. I've heard over 30 years of can't, can't, can't
 about electric drive vehicles of all types. 
 
 In the 80's, the agencies were saying that, too. They also said can't,
 can't, can't about cleaning up the air any further. So they got sued in
 federal court by a private citizen, who, to make a long story short,
 won. 
 
 The air was supposed to get better until the early 90's, and then get
 worse due to growth. Check out the timing of clean air progress since
 the 80's, and also look at when the ZEV mandate was originally adopted.
 
 So, do you want some cheese to go with your w(h)ine?
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jun 25, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the
 efficiency of various fuels.  Their standard was an EV with the
 equivalent of 50 MPG.  A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced
 from reformatted natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the
 equivalent of 30 mpg while hydrogen produced by electrolysis was the
 equivalent of 12 mpg.
 
 There a number of technical problems with fuel cells:
 1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours.  Since my
 average driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell
 every 60K miles.  Therefore, a different fuel cell construction
 technique would have to be used.
 2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed
 to aid in acceleration.  Therefore, a faster way of transferring the
 proton through the electrolyte is needed.  Think of a proton as a
 person needed to run through air as opposed through water or molasses.
 3) The storage of hydrogen to go 300 miles in a Toyota Camry needed 3
 specially carbon wound tanks where the internal pressures reached 700
 bar.  A bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch.  This equates to 5 tons per
 square inch in a 2 ton vehicle.  Catastrophic failures would be
 catastrophic.  The hydrogen, therefore, needs to be stored in a
 molecular sponge where the hydrogen freely flows in and out of storage
 without much energy inducements.  One real scheme required 800 degree
 Fahrenheit temperatures to release the hydrogen from storage.
 
 Given the number of technical problems that need to be solved, I don't
 see hydrogen fuel celled vehicles coming into common use anytime soon.
 
 
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 For EV drag

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

It is just not feasible to meet clean air requirements with just
battery electrics.
- this is news to me. Care to elaborate?
I always thought that between BEV and plug-in HEV we would be in good
shape.
Just the other day I looked at the MPG display of my Prius (which is not
even plug-in) and saw to my amazement that we are beating EPA rating by
getting 48.5 MPG over 6,000 miles of mixed driving (and that in a 2002).

Did someone with vested interests write something into the law that only
one solution is capable of meeting? Inquiring minds like to know.

Thanks,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:53 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

There are a number of you that think that this is a technology food
fight. It's not. Any food fight is one way, and fortunately you're just
shouting into your own echo chamber.

That's a good thing, because despite the ignorance being espoused (much
like I hear from the climate change deniers), we are in trouble unless
fuel cells are successful. It is just not feasible to meet clean air
requirements with just battery electrics. Sorry, but it's true. Anyone
with any air quality planning competence will tell you that. And even
with fuel cells, there still exists a major challenge.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 25, 2014, at 5:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Mark,
 Are the laws of Physics different in California?
 It is simply be design and following science that tells us that
 Hydrogen powered cars will never be cost-effective.
 Of course, a state can set up a grande grant-scheme and create
 an artificially unbalanced market that will collapse as soon as
 the money runs out or voters get fed up with the money being
 poured into a fallacy that is not sustainable.
 EVs have proven to be sustainable and efficient, they are 
 subsidized via tax breaks to sweeten the deal and ramp up
 the market faster. But the Physics of a BEV tells us that it is
 efficient and effective. Limited, maybe but good enough for
 about 95% of most people's trips.
 
 The situation is quite different for FCV and that is why even
 organizations that promote Fuel Cell development have pulled out of
 the unsustainable Hydrogen Fuel Cell development. (Except those that
 are more interested in grants than in practical applications and
 progress)
 We will see where Toyota lands, time will tell.
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Abramowitz
 via EV
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:17 PM
 To: Peter Eckhoff; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
 
 Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.
 
 **
 
 Sounds like a very old analysis.
 
 Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your
 first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But
 it's just not productive to focus on those as have all the negative
 Nellies for decades. I've heard over 30 years of can't, can't,
can't
 about electric drive vehicles of all types. 
 
 In the 80's, the agencies were saying that, too. They also said
can't,
 can't, can't about cleaning up the air any further. So they got sued
in
 federal court by a private citizen, who, to make a long story short,
 won. 
 
 The air was supposed to get better until the early 90's, and then get
 worse due to growth. Check out the timing of clean air progress since
 the 80's, and also look at when the ZEV mandate was originally
adopted.
 
 So, do you want some cheese to go with your w(h)ine?
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jun 25, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the
 efficiency of various fuels.  Their standard was an EV with the
 equivalent of 50 MPG.  A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced
 from reformatted natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the
 equivalent of 30 mpg while hydrogen produced by electrolysis was the
 equivalent of 12 mpg.
 
 There a number of technical problems with fuel cells:
 1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours.  Since my
 average driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell
 every 60K miles.  Therefore, a different fuel cell construction
 technique would have to be used.
 2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed
 to aid in acceleration.  Therefore, a faster way of transferring the
 proton through the electrolyte is

Re: [EVDL] gas tax (EV transmission lines, not oil pipelines)

2014-06-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I can see that my original statement was confusing.   What I meant was that
for the same conductor and same I^2R loss, DC can deliver nearly 40% more
power because the DC line can operate at the PEAK voltage rating of the
line, whereas the AC line only delivers that same current power at RMS
voltage, not peak.  40% increase is  worth doing for long point-to-point
transmission (with no taps)


It's not that simple. Insulators have different voltage withstand 
capabilities on AC or DC. You can't easily compare them.


One example: DC always has the same polarity, so leakage currents 
through the insulation cause corrosion and electrodeposition effects. 
This lowers the maximum voltage that an insulation can withstand on DC.


Another example: If there's an arc, it self-extinguishes on AC at the 
next zero-crossing. On DC, the arc will *continue* until some external 
device interrupts the flow of current.


Another example: On AC, corona is more likely to occur. The higher the 
frequency, the worse it gets.


--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] No politics, please

On 25 Jun 2014 at 12:17, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

 I am interested in other peoples politics, but not getting hollered at.  It is
 the flames, not the ideas that are a problem,  not so?

Some places have lively, animated, intelligent discussions about politics. 
(I hear that's the way it goes in France, but haven't experienced it.) 

Others just hunker down and flail at each other from within their respective 
with us or against us camps.  That seems to be the American way now, and 
in fact it seems to be overspreading most of the world.

I've been moderating the EVDL to one extent or another for a good 15 years 
or more.  There is a remarkable degree of civility here, but experience has 
shown me that it breaks down pretty quickly when partisan politics comes up.

These threads aren't quite there, but they're dancing in that direction.  

Yes, there's a political component to EVs.  That's inevitable, since some 
governments encourage EV development and uptake with political action of 
various types.  But in the interest of peace (and not seeing subscribers 
depart en masse as has happened in the past), I ask that EVDLers please 
check their partisan politics at the door.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

In the 1990's Honda sold an ICE Accord that had zero emissions. In LA it
made cleaner exhaust than what it aspirated. (Ignoring the CO2) The
meaning if zero is slippery, but the point is still there - even ICE can be
pretty good WRT to clean air, if not carbon.

A main problem with H2 is inefficiency and if the source of the power to
make the H2 is not clean and renewable then it is a poor choice. It is
better to take solar and wind and charge batteries than to use the
electricity to form H2, storing the power in H2, then burning it in even
less efficient fuel cells.

With batteries less is wasted and cells like LFP are quite environmentally
benign, lithium titanate will be even better. The hardware needed for H2
generation and use is considerably more complex and expensive than the
solar to battery path.

We have an H2 demo in the building beside my lab here, the electrolyzer is
run with a kW solar array of thin film on the roof. You would not be able
to have this in your own garage, it is far too expensive, so H2 cannot be
dispensed at home, which is quite a nice thing about BEVs.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

Old news.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/planning/vision/docs/vision_for_clean_air_public_review_draft.pdf

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2014, at 6:06 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

- this is news to me. Care to elaborate?
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With your one wild and precious life?
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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts