Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread brucedp5 via EV

(Corrections requested)
With convenience stores (7-11, etc.) trying to be gas stations, and gas
stations trying to be convenience stores, whatever pump you pull up to, the
business draws power and people.

24 hour stations are the normal here and are located just off a highway (101
or 280). Customers range from those with less cash on hand that only buy
enough to get home (5 minutes at the pump), to those with large (puffy)
trucks or SUVs that swallow 30+ gallons (15 minutes at the pump). 
(Average: 10 minutes at the pump for each customer). 
Midnight to 6 the customer count is less.

Using a station I see when going to my local VA hospital as an example
http://www.sanfrangasprices.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=11=37.462992015873=-122.224724292755=15611=All

 it has two pumps at each of two islands, each pump can handle a customer on
each side for a total of 8 customers at a time (they are usually always in
use)
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsYDkH1F85Z2d7raR2yj45ADCgKmbnAkN6RDGgzrvxv-CFeJaj8w

Plus there is power drawn for the mini convenience store as well as two
fully functional ice repair-smog bays, each with their own car lifts
http://www.kings76.com/var/m_8/89/891/216858/CACHED_288910-990-500.jpg

I would guesstimate that the station has a 208VAC 100A circuit and in a 24
hour period is on average only using 50% of its capacity:
 208VAC *  100A * .8 * .5 * 24hours = 199.680kWh per day.

8 customers every 10 minutes figuring they have half as many customers from
midnight to 6am:
 8 * 6 * 24hours * .75 = 864

So 200kWh used, serving 864 customers in a 24 hour period.

200kWh / 864 = 0.23kwh per customer in a 24 hour period.




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Re: [EVDL] Coal in Your Stocking

2015-12-05 Thread ralph bagwell via EV
Piped natural gas helped end much coal use

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:19 PM, lektwik via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> EVDL Folks...
>
> I debated whether to tag this as OT or not. Could be considered political I
> suppose if you _must_ separate an interest in EVs from conscious
> stewardship of the environment. To me, it couldn't be more -on topic-.
>
> Yes, I just pulled the following quote from another thread for use here-
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >Once upon a time, everyone burned coal in factories, businesses, and homes
> for heating and cooking. City air quality was often atrocious. There were
> even some epidemics and mass deaths as a result.
>
> I remember my grandparents using coal, at least into the late 1950's. But
> somehow, it all stopped rather suddenly. I was too young to know why or how
> this was achieved.
>
> What caused the sudden change? And, could that same effect happen again, to
> bring us to a "tipping point" so encourage a rapid change from coal and oil
> to cleaner technologies?<
> 
>
>
> Reading this made me think about the great EV-related stories Lee has
> written over the years. This seems like a good start on an outline for the
> next great Lee Hart story! :-)
>
> Being the Holiday Season, it is always time to bring these classics to the
> folks that may not have had the pleasure of reading them before.
>
> A Christmas Car, By Lee Hart
> http://www.evdl.org/pages/xmascar.html
>
> And... It took me a while to find this one-
>
> How The Grinch Sold Green-ness, by Lee A. Hart
> http://www.davesevs.com/grinch.htm
>
> More here-
> http://www.evdl.org/lib/index.html#ifun
>
>
> Happy New Year!
> Roy LeMeur
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Archaic red tape threatens New_Orleans-LA home-EVSE (v)

2015-12-05 Thread jerry freedomev via EV
ystems purchased after June 30, 2018.

“It’s ironic that the biggest tax credit in the country was coming from the
Louisiana Legislature, one of the reddest in the country, and New Orleans,
one of the most liberal cities in the country, has nothing to encourage
solar panels” or electric vehicles, Ghelase said.

“They’ve had 10 years since the electric cars came out and became mainstream
to come up with a policy to allow private curbside electric charging
installs,” Ghelase said.

The community of electric vehicle owners is still relatively small in New
Orleans. Jeff Cantin, owner of rooftop solar installer Solar Alternatives
and head of the Gulf States Renewable Energy Industries Association, said
there are about 100 in the city, but the demand for charging stations is
growing.

“There’s getting to be a few more in town, so you see the need for more as
they get more vehicles and people are asking around,” Cantin said.

Solar Alternatives has helped install seven charging stations around town
that use 240 Volts, including two at each of the Whole Foods locations in
the city. That type of charge takes up to four hours to fully charge a
typical electric vehicle, while converting the charge from a regular
household 120-Volt outlet can take 12 hours for a full charge.

Solar Alternatives also helped get a donation from Nissan Motors to install
the state’s only DC fast-charging station at the Rouse’s Market downtown. It
can fully charge most electric cars – except the larger Teslas – in just 20
minutes. Those smaller cars can go about 80 miles on a full charge.

So far, most of the publicly available charging stations are free to use,
with businesses like Whole Foods and Rouse’s picking up the tab to provide
the electricity. The basic etiquette is for the car owners to shop at the
store while charging their vehicle there.

“It’s interesting. You see a lot of the need for it when you go somewhere to
charge and somebody’s there,” Cantin said. “You say, ‘Gee, I wish there was
somewhere else I could go.’”

That’s why privately installed charging stations on public property are so
useful, Ghelase said. There’s a smart phone application called the PlugShare
App where anyone can find area charging stations on a map, with information
about each one.

His is marked on the map with a note saying it’s free to anyone, as long as
he isn’t using the charger at the moment.

It only takes about $1.80 worth of electricity to fully charge the typical
electric car, Ghelase said, but it doesn’t even cost him that much. He
produces all of his household energy with his solar panels, and he said they
paid for themselves years ago.

While the state’s tax credit program for the nascent electric car industry
is extremely generous, its progressive solar tax credit is far more popular,
much more costly and therefore, about to come to an end. That’s why Ghelase
says it’s high time for the city to step up to the plate.
[© wwltv.com]
...
http://nola.curbed.com/archives/2015/12/02/electric-car-charger-algiers-point.php
City Says No to Algiers Point Man's Electric Car Charger
December 2, 2015




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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Brandon Hines via EV


I am guessing that there is less brand loyalty for convenience stores
than for gas stations.  At the very least there will be consolidation
among convenience stores.  I cannot imagine the market supporting four
convenience stores within a block of each other.  But more importantly,
these convenience stores are only convenient because people have to stop
for gas.  If people no longer need to stop the market will consolidate
and many will go away.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/gas+stations/@33.5239679,-112.1133195,17.25z


-Brandon

On 12/05/2015 10:00 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> Why would they go away?  People don't go to convenience stores to buy
> gas.  Certainly buying gas encourages buying something inside but the
> demand for convenience shopping was around long before service station
> morphed into convenience stores with gas pumps.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Brandon Hines via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 05-Dec-15 7:22:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
> pumping gas too!)
>
>> If people primarily charge at home then wouldn't most convenience stores
>> go away?
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>> On 12/05/2015 11:44 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>>  That's great info, Tom!
>>>
>>>  I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing
>>>  your numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or
>>>  so miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!
>>>
>>>  It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store
>>>  is an anomaly.
>>>
>>>  Peri
>>>
>>>  -- Original Message --
>>>  From: "Tom Keenan" 
>>>  To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
>>>  List" 
>>>  Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
>>>  pumping gas too!)
>>>
  About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner
  what the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said
  about 350 kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas
  heating). I asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no,
  that was the amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill
  as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that
  amount per month.

  Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers
  (about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight
  gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter
  of the total energy use for his station.

  If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves
  perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is
  between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
  (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account
  their 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and
  cigarettes or not.

  Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
  equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly
  more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total
  energy used per vehicle would need to include that power used as
 well.

  Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to
  customer attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh
  available per day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250
  Wh/mi, that would translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of
  electric driving. Or enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs
  doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition
  model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to
  shut down one gas station.

  Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

  Tom Keenan

>   On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>  wrote:
>
>   That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an
>  answer, based on this EIA graph:
>
>   http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
>
>   Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of
>  residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from
>  EIA, for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average
>  commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.
>
>   https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
>
>   Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
>  accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver
>  goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
>
>   So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses
>  enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
>
>   Peri
>
>   -- 

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Tom Keenan via EV
 Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer, 
>>>> based on this EIA graph:
>>>> 
>>>>  http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
>>>> 
>>>>  Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of 
>>>> residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, for 
>>>> residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average commercial 
>>>> location uses 8.8MwH per year.
>>>> 
>>>>  https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
>>>> 
>>>>  Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
>>>> accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes 
>>>> 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
>>>> 
>>>>  So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses 
>>>> enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
>>>> 
>>>>  Peri
>>>> 
>>>>  -- Original Message --
>>>>  From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>  Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
>>>>  Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping 
>>>> gas too!)
>>>> 
>>>>>>  : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>>>>>>  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by overloading
>>>>>>  our power network, senior Tories fear.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Typical right wing ignorance.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas 
>>>>> stations
>>>>>  remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume  
>>>>> My
>>>>>  wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.  Now
>>>>>  add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
>>>>>  turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
>>>>>  distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity consumed
>>>>>  pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
>>>>>  owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell me 
>>>>> how
>>>>>  many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the number 
>>>>> of
>>>>>  cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with the
>>>>>  statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric bill.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare 
>>>>> notes.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Bob
>>>>>  ---
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

That's great info, Tom!

I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing your 
numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or so 
miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!


It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store 
is an anomaly.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Tom Keenan" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)


About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner what 
the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said about 350 
kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas heating). I 
asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no, that was the 
amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill as proof.  I 
was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that amount per month.


Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers 
(about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight 
gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter 
of the total energy use for his station.


If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves 
perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is between 
125 and 175 Watt-hours
(0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account their 
'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and cigarettes or 
not.


Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the 
equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly 
more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total energy 
used per vehicle would need to include that power used as well.


Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to customer 
attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh available per 
day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250 Wh/mi, that would 
translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of electric driving. Or 
enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs doing forty-mile 
(round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition model would appear 
to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to shut down one gas 
station.


Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

Tom Keenan

 On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


 That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an 
answer, based on this EIA graph:


 http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21

 Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of 
residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, 
for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average 
commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.


 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3

 Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver 
goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.


 So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses 
enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.


 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)



 : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
 BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by 
overloading

 our power network, senior Tories fear.


 Typical right wing ignorance.

 What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas 
stations
 remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station 
consume  My
 wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's. 
 Now
 add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, 
and

 turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
 distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity 
consumed

 pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!

 Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if 
the
 owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will 
tell me how
 many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the 
number of
 cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with 
the
 statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric 
bill.


 But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare 
notes.


 Bob
 ---






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Re: [EVDL] Archaic red tape threatens New_Orleans-LA home-EVSE (v)

2015-12-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

... Ghelase said he’s been told his charger is in violation of the
law and he has to shut it down, giving him no way to keep his
electric vehicle operating.

From the city’s perspective... for safety reasons, the law prohibits
allowing electrical wires to cross property lines, even from a
privately owned lot to the public right of way in front of it


Well, there are ways around that one, at least. Transmit the power 
across the property line by some means other than electrically.


For example, get a big isolation transformer. Put the primary on his 
property, and the secondary on the city's property, so only the core 
itself crosses the line. The energy crosses the line magnetically. 
Transformers this size are over 90% efficient, so energy loss is minimal.


Or, use a motor-generator setup. The shaft that couples the two crosses 
the property line. The shaft could be a couple feet long, if you wanted 
something that makes the non-electrical separation plainly visible.


Or, do it hydraulically. An electric motor drives a pump. The fluid goes 
through pipes to a matching hydraulic motor, which spins a generator. 
The two ends could be separated as far as you like, though efficiency 
isn't as good (maybe 50%).


Of course, the best solution is to fix the stupid laws!
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons. -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Coal in Your Stocking

2015-12-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

lektwik via EV wrote:

Reading this made me think about the great EV-related stories Lee has
written over the years.

A Christmas Car, By Lee Hart
http://www.evdl.org/pages/xmascar.html

How The Grinch Sold Green-ness, by Lee A. Hart
http://www.davesevs.com/grinch.htm

More here-
http://www.evdl.org/lib/index.html#ifun


Thanks lektwik! It was fun revisiting them. I've written hundreds of 
stories and poems like these, though most aren't EV related.


> This seems like a good start on an outline for the
> next great Lee Hart story! :-)

Hmm... I'll have to start thinking about it.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons. -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] article: All-electric Porsche Mission E goes into production

2015-12-05 Thread robert winfield via EV
perhaps the articles could be alternately titledTesla producing Roadster in 
2008 and model S since 2012, both Porsche mission E killers
  From: brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2015 1:49 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: All-electric Porsche Mission E goes into 
production
   

The link previously posted:

http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/12/all-electric-porsche-mission-e-goes-into-production/
 ... the Porsche Mission E has been confirmed for production and will arrive
in the showrooms around 2020 ...

 states Porsche is 3 years away from giving it to their dealers.
I already posted about this R EV PR back in Sept.:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Porsche-Mission-e-concept-600hp-800V-r-500km-4real-this-time-tp4677599.html
EVLN: Porsche Mission-e concept 600hp 800V r:500km ?4real this time?
Sep 15 2015


?So why do I currently see the newswires so clogged with the Mission-e
topic?
Well IMO it's feel-good PR. VW is still reeling from all its bad PR when it
was caught being dishonest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche#Relationship_with_Volkswagen

Even GM knows there is nothing like exploiting the public's child-like/FOMO
short-term memory with lots of fluff and puff distracting PR. And the media
loved Porsche long before it even began to like Tesla.


I do not dislike Porsche nor VW. I just know from experience of searching
the news for plugins since 1990, that Porsche has a habit of announcing
something great sounding, just to see it later dashed/dropped/killed, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Porsche-Boxster-E-concept-ts-124mph-0-60mph-5-5s-241hp-t-398ft-lbs-tp3557413.html
Porsche Boxster E concept ts:124mph 0-60mph:5.5s 241hp t:398ft-lbs
May 28, 2011

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1099229_porsche-reportedly-bringing-electric-pajun-concept-to-frankfurt
Porsche Reportedly Bringing Electric 'Pajun' Concept To Frankfurt
Jul 21, 2015 ... In 2011, the company revealed the Boxster E Electric
Prototype, and recent patent filings indicate we could see also a fuel cell
model at some point. And now we have more information on Stuttgart's latest
all-electric effort ...

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/porsche-pajun-concept-performance-news-specs/
Porsche Pajun Concept | Performance, News, Specs ...
Jul 21, 2015 - A report coming out of France finds Porsche's on-again,
off-again sub-Panamera sedan will be presented to the public this September
at the ...


The wording 'on-again, off-again' really sums up how flaky their efforts
have been. For years Porsche makes a lot of PR noise about Electrics, but
nothing really happens.

I will wait 3.5 years to see if the Porsche Mission-e is an EV or pih, and
if it actually becomes available for the public to buy. Remember, by that
time, there will be a new U.S. administration (a new ball game). Maybe that
is what they are killing time for ...

I mean when the Chinese can hack-n-steal designs then clone a best-selling
car, and their is quick 3D printing to accelerate the R
prototyping/tuning, ... why does it take years for these archaic/old-school
brick-and-mortar automobile companies to produce a product? 




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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Tom Keenan via EV
About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner what the 
normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said about 350 kWh in 
summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas heating). I asked if this was 
for an entire month, and me said no, that was the amount used for a single day! 
 He showed his power bill as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses 
roughly that amount per month. 

Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers (about a 
dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight gasoline and two 
diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter of the total energy use 
for his station. 

If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves perhaps 2,000 
vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
(0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account their 'use' of 
powering the store, whether they buy soda and cigarettes or not. 

Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the equation- 
extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly more amounts of 
energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total energy used per vehicle would 
need to include that power used as well. 

Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to customer 
attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh available per day for 
the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250 Wh/mi, that would translate to 
1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of electric driving. Or enough miles/power to 
satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas 
station attrition model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE 
vehicles to shut down one gas station. 

Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

Tom Keenan

> On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer, based 
> on this EIA graph:
> 
> http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
> 
> Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of residential 
> (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, for residential is 
> 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average commercial location uses 8.8MwH 
> per year.
> 
> https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
> 
> Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
> accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes 
> 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
> 
> So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses enough 
> electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas 
> too!)
> 
>>> : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>>> BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by overloading
>>> our power network, senior Tories fear.
>> 
>> Typical right wing ignorance.
>> 
>> What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas stations
>> remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume  My
>> wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.  Now
>> add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
>> turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
>> distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity consumed
>> pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!
>> 
>> Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
>> owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell me how
>> many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the number of
>> cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with the
>> statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric bill.
>> 
>> But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare notes.
>> 
>> Bob
>> ---
> 
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[EVDL] Archaic red tape threatens New_Orleans-LA home-EVSE (v)

2015-12-05 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/14148883-172/city-tells-algiers-point-man
City tells Algiers Point man to remove his electric vehicle charger, at
least for now
Nov. 30, 2015  JEFF ADELSON

[image  / JOHN McCUSKER
http://theadvocate.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=K8yexkMnkEr9PW2IgniMFM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYvNw0W9RkE9a$aKw3f8f7$3WCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-=image/jpeg
Vlad Ghelase with his electric car and charging station in front of his
Algiers Point home
]

Red tape threatens to pull the plug on man’s electric car charging station

After considering making the switch to an electric vehicle for years, Vlad
Ghelase finally bought a used Nissan Leaf two weeks ago.

Like many houses in older New Orleans neighborhoods, Ghelase’s lacks a
driveway, so he couldn’t put the charging station for the car next to his
Algiers Point house. Stretching a power cord across the sidewalk to the
street could present problems. So he had an electrician apply for a permit
to install a charging station next to the curb in front of his home.

And that’s when he ran into a problem that New Orleans apparently hasn’t yet
grappled with, but which is likely to become more common in the future: how
to deal with charging stations on the public property that lines the city’s
streets.

Ghelase said he’s been told his charger is in violation of the law and he
has to shut it down, giving him no way to keep his electric vehicle
operating.

City officials said they’re looking into what to do about both his charger
and what they expect to be an increasing number of similar situations in
coming years.

In the meantime, however, Ghelase said he’s been frustrated trying to figure
out how to get his charger into compliance with the law.

“That’s the irony of it. We’re in a red state with a Republican Legislature
that has incentives for electric vehicles, and the most progressive city in
the state is actually blocking it,” he said.

At least 11 people have received permits to put charging stations on their
property, according to city records. But those were actually on their
property, something that isn’t possible in areas of the city where driveways
are scarce.

From the city’s perspective, there are two separate problems with Ghelase’s
set-up, Director of Safety and Permits Jared Munster said. Anyone who builds
on city property must pay for it under rules designed to abide by the
prohibition against using public property for private gain, he said. In
addition, for safety reasons, the law prohibits allowing electrical wires to
cross property lines, even from a privately owned lot to the public right of
way in front of it, he said.

Neither of those presents insurmountable problems, Munster said.

The city’s Department of Property Maintenance could sign off on a lease of a
portion of the right of way, he said, though Ghelase said when he tried to
go that route he was told it wasn’t possible. As for the issue of crossing
property lines, Munster said the city’s Board of Building Standards and
Appeals could clear the way for Ghelase’s set-up.

But in the meantime, Munster said, the department is asking Ghelase to
disconnect his charging station.

Officials from the Department of Safety and Permits and the Department of
Property Maintenance plan to meet to discuss Ghelase’s specific issue and,
potentially, the broader topic of how to permit such charging stations in
the future.

“It’s absolutely something we’re looking at,” Munster said. “This is going
to become a more common issue. The more electric vehicles are on the road,
the more it’s going to happen.”

The issue has come up only once before, when a property owner Uptown
requested a permit for a similar set-up. At the time, city officials did not
realize that installation was going to be on public property and so issued a
permit, though they’re planning to revisit the issue, Munster said.

Another problem is that a charging station in the right of way next to the
street would not give its owner a specific claim to the adjacent parking
spot, and he couldn’t prevent others from using the charger.

Ghelase said he’d already been working under that assumption, based on
regulations in place in Berkeley, California. He handed out fliers based on
Berkeley’s law to his neighbors, letting them know the charger didn’t give
him any special rights and they could use both the spot and the station.

Jeff Cantin, owner of Solar Alternatives, said his company has installed
several chargers for residents and has not run into any problems. But with
the price of electric vehicles coming down and interest in the technology
rising, he said, New Orleans should look to other cities that have
instituted a streamlined process to allow chargers in front of people’s
homes.

“Other cities around the country have figured this out,” Cantin said.
“Fortunately, as usual, New Orleans is a little bit 

[EVDL] EVLN: Walkden's 1992 Subaru Brumby Electric conversion save$

2015-12-05 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.theadvocate.com.au/story/3528789/big-bucks-saved-through-electric-conversion/
Big bucks saved through electric conversion
Dec. 1, 2015  LUCY SWINNEN

[image  
http://nnimgt-a.akamaihd.net/transform/v1/crop/frm/silverstone-feed-data/32668bd5-7d6e-4971-9d8f-b2addb7e5bb8.jpg/r0_14_847_493_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg
PLUG IN: Christopher Walkden of Seabourne explains the conversion of his
1992 Subaru Brumby to Labor leader Bryan Green yesterday. Picture: Jason
Hollister
]

CONVERTING your petrol guzzler into an electric car could save you
thousands, say electric car drivers.

The secretary of the Tasmanian Australian Electric Vehicle Association and
electric car enthusiast, Christopher Walkden, of Seabourne, near Hagley,
spends roughly $5 per 100 kilometres in his converted electric car.

Mr Walkden has been keen on going electric for a long time.

In 2012 he converted a much-loved family car, a 1992 Subaru Brumby 4WD into
an electric car.

The conversion gave the car a new lease on life, and it is cheaper to run
and service than ever.

Reaching speeds of 130km/h, the car has also made Mr Walkden the first
Tasmanian record holder for electric car drag racing.

He was invited by Tas Dragway and completed 1/8th of a lap in just over 12
seconds.

The only downside for Mr Walkden is that for every 100 kilometres he needs
to recharge his car overnight, using a regular power point.

There is a very limited range of places Mr Walkden can go in Tasmania to
recharge efficiently.

See your ad here
"We have had inquiries from the mainland, people want to find out where they
can charge when they come down," Mr Walkden said.

Charging stations along the highway would significantly improve the range
and capacity for local and interstate drivers, Mr Walkden said.

"It would open up the state for tourism from the mainland."
[© 2015 Fairfax Media]




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[EVDL] EVLN: New Nissan EV will offer an i3-like rex option

2015-12-05 Thread brucedp5 via EV


'i-MiEV EV is dead', 'Mazda’s h2-rotary-rex'

http://www.motoring.com.au/nissan-ev-range-extender-in-2016-100413/
Nissan EV range extender in 2016
December 01, 2015  Feann Torr

Range anxiety issues to be addressed with Nissan's first extended-range
electric car

BMW’s i3 has one, the now-discontinued Holden Volt had one, and soon Nissan
will offer an electric vehicle (EV) with a compact range-extender engine.

To be revealed in 2016, the new vehicle will be self-proclaimed EV market
leader Nissan’s first attempt at offering an electric car with a small
combustion engine. Unlike regular and plug-in hybrids, the (usually tiny)
engines have no connection to the driving wheels.

Instead, they act purely as a generator, sometimes doubling effective
cruising ranges.

Yoshi Shimoida, Nissan’s Deputy General Manager, EV and HEV engineering
division, revealed to motoring.com.au that there will be “no engine” for the
LEAF in future, ruling out the world’s best-selling EV as a donor car.

“But in the future Nissan will add [a new vehicle] to the line-up of EV
systems an engine that is only for generating energy,” said the EV
technology specialist.

When talk turned to the BMW i3 and its range-extender, Shimoida said it was
similar in execution.

“It’s something like that [range extender]. But we call it a series hybrid,”
he said, which is another name given to the range-extending EV technology.

The Japanese EV guru wouldn’t be drawn on the Nissan EV’s range, or whether
it would match that of the range-extender BMW i3. The BMW EV can travel
around 150km while the range-extender versions, which get a 650cc scooter
engine and a small fuel tank, effectively double that distance to 300km
between charges/fills via a 9.5-litre fuel tank.

Shimoida wouldn’t say what the new vehicle will be called although he did
reveal it’s going to be announced sooner rather than later.

“Next year we announce what it’s called,” he stated.

If the new vehicle is not going to be a LEAF, it’s possible an all-new
vehicle premiering the range-extending EV technology for Nissan could be
introduced.

In September this year, Nissan revealed a new battery pack for the 2015 LEAF
electric car for overseas markets that goes from 24kWh to 30kWh, extending
the range from 228km to 280km.

Chris Jordan, Nissan Australia’s Corporate Communications Supervisor, said
the upgraded LEAF will not be offered in this country, but wouldn’t rule out
the arrival a new range-extender EV – which would be far more palatable to
Aussie buyers.

“You’d have to see what it was first,” he said. “We look at all products but
I can’t add anything more than that.”
[© motoring.com.au]



http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/12/mitsubishis-electric-i-miev-is-dead-hybrid-is-the-future/
 ... Mitsubishi is killing off the i-MiEV to focus on hybridifying (yep,
that’s a word) the rest of its vehicle line-up in the next couple of years
...
http://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/g/2015/12/mitsubishi_imiev.jpg
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/30/i-miev-doesnt-survive-mitsubishis-updated-ev-plan/
i-MiEV doesn't survive Mitsubishi's updated EV plan
...
http://artofgears.com/2015/12/02/mitsubishis-electric-only-i-miev-to-be-discontinued/
Mitsubishi's Electric Only i-MiEV To Be Discontinued



http://www.wired.com/2015/12/mazdas-confusing-plan-to-resurrect-the-famously-dirty-rotary-engine/
 ... despite the rotary engine’s ample promise as a [h2] range extender,
Mazda’s managing executive officer Kiyoshi Fujiwara insists that is not how
the engine will return. “I want to introduce a new rotary without
electrification first,” he says. “If I introduce it with both, people will
say electrification helped the rotary engine.”  So pride is clearly an
issue. And there’s still no guarantee [h2] will ever become a widely
available fuel source, hence the old joke, [h2] is the fuel of the
future—and always will be ...




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[EVDL] EVLN: Zoe EV'r is 'courtesy-ice-co$ts' furious at long parts wait

2015-12-05 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/151406/watchdog-costs-spiral-as-petrol-courtesy-car-replaces-ev
Watchdog: Costs spiral as petrol courtesy car replaces EV
Dec 1, 2015  Joe Finnerty

[image  
http://cdn2.carbuyer.co.uk/sites/carbuyer_d7/files/styles/16x9_720/public/unp-autoexp-33826-renault-zoe-12_0.jpg?itok=Ds_sN-oB
(Zoe w/ broken side mirror)
]

Owner left furious at long wait for Renault ZOE parts as courtesy car sends
her bills soaring

Should you be compensated for the running costs of a courtesy vehicle while
your own car is in for repairs? On the one hand, there's no legal
requirement for a garage to provide a car to keep you mobile, but on the
other it's considered good customer service.

The answer to the question becomes further muddled when your car is an EV –
which offers 2p-a-mile motoring – and the courtesy car runs on petrol, which
racks up fuel bills. It's a dilemma Elizabeth Haslehurst, from Barnsley,
South Yorkshire, faced when the gearknob on her Renault ZOE fell off.

She’d bought the car from Harratts Renault, Wakefield, in March, and in May
the car needed to be booked in for repairs. It was fixed, but on the drive
home the gear selector was locking in drive. So she then booked it in at
Evans Halshaw Sheffield.

Unfortunately, things didn’t improve. Elizabeth contacted Auto Express after
the car had been off the road for seven weeks with parts “on back order”. We
contacted Renault, and within a few days the parts arrived. However, the
gearknob still felt loose and by the weekend it had fallen off. Elizabeth
said: “I bought the car for financial reasons, as it's advertised the ZOE
will cost 2p per mile to run, but the replacement hire car I was given

is a normal combustion engine. I’m significantly out of pocket as I’m paying
for both fuel and the battery lease on something which I can’t drive.”

This time the dealer screwed the gearstick in place, but Elizabeth wanted to
reject the car. However, Renault said the fix was a permanent one, and so
there was no case to answer. Elizabeth told us: “It looks like I’m going to
be stuck with a car I’ve no faith in.”

We contacted Renault to pursue a compensation claim, and the manufacturer
offered a free four-year servicing plan or two months’ reimbursement of
battery hire – but nothing for the courtesy car expenses.

A spokesman said: “We will always try to ensure spare parts are available
within 24 to 48 hours of order. We ensured she remained mobile with a free
courtesy vehicle and kept her fully informed at
all times. We have offered a gesture of goodwill in relation to her
experience.”
[© carbuyer.co.uk]




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Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Re: article: All-electric Porsche Mission E goes into production

2015-12-05 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
I hope they realize this won't be that strong a competitor to Tesla.  It has a 
few incremental improvements over today's Tesla Model S, but the Model S will 
be 10 years old when the Mission E is released (if they are on time).  

Where do they think Tesla will be in 5 years?  That is where they should be 
aiming.

Mike


On December 4, 2015 11:49:44 PM MST, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>The link previously posted:
>
>http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/12/all-electric-porsche-mission-e-goes-into-production/
>... the Porsche Mission E has been confirmed for production and will
>arrive
>in the showrooms around 2020 ...
>
> states Porsche is 3 years away from giving it to their dealers.
>I already posted about this R EV PR back in Sept.:
>
>
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Porsche-Mission-e-concept-600hp-800V-r-500km-4real-this-time-tp4677599.html
>EVLN: Porsche Mission-e concept 600hp 800V r:500km ?4real this time?
>Sep 15 2015
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Coal in Your Stocking

2015-12-05 Thread Thos True via EV
As did the relatively easy conversion to heating oil based furnaces. Many
oil distributors started as coal and kerosene
delivery businesses.

-Tom

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 5:00 AM, ralph bagwell via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Piped natural gas helped end much coal use
>
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:19 PM, lektwik via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> > EVDL Folks...
> >
> > I debated whether to tag this as OT or not. Could be considered
> political I
> > suppose if you _must_ separate an interest in EVs from conscious
> > stewardship of the environment. To me, it couldn't be more -on topic-.
> >
> > Yes, I just pulled the following quote from another thread for use here-
> >
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >Once upon a time, everyone burned coal in factories, businesses, and
> homes
> > for heating and cooking. City air quality was often atrocious. There were
> > even some epidemics and mass deaths as a result.
> >
> > I remember my grandparents using coal, at least into the late 1950's. But
> > somehow, it all stopped rather suddenly. I was too young to know why or
> how
> > this was achieved.
> >
> > What caused the sudden change? And, could that same effect happen again,
> to
> > bring us to a "tipping point" so encourage a rapid change from coal and
> oil
> > to cleaner technologies?<
> > 
> >
> >
> > Reading this made me think about the great EV-related stories Lee has
> > written over the years. This seems like a good start on an outline for
> the
> > next great Lee Hart story! :-)
> >
> > Being the Holiday Season, it is always time to bring these classics to
> the
> > folks that may not have had the pleasure of reading them before.
> >
> > A Christmas Car, By Lee Hart
> > http://www.evdl.org/pages/xmascar.html
> >
> > And... It took me a while to find this one-
> >
> > How The Grinch Sold Green-ness, by Lee A. Hart
> > http://www.davesevs.com/grinch.htm
> >
> > More here-
> > http://www.evdl.org/lib/index.html#ifun
> >
> >
> > Happy New Year!
> > Roy LeMeur
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> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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-- 
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
ns when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
>>>> stations
>>>>  remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station
>>>> consume  My
>>>>  wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.
>>>> Now
>>>>  add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
>>>>  turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
>>>>  distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity
>>>> consumed
>>>>  pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!
>>>>
>>>>  Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
>>>>  owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell
>>>> me how
>>>>  many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the
>>>> number of
>>>>  cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with the
>>>>  statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric bill.
>>>>
>>>>  But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare
>>>> notes.
>>>>
>>>>  Bob
>>>>  ---
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Brandon Hines via EV
If people primarily charge at home then wouldn't most convenience stores
go away?

Brandon

On 12/05/2015 11:44 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> That's great info, Tom!
>
> I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing
> your numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or
> so miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!
>
> It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store
> is an anomaly.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Tom Keenan" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
> pumping gas too!)
>
>> About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner
>> what the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said
>> about 350 kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas
>> heating). I asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no,
>> that was the amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill
>> as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that
>> amount per month.
>>
>> Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers
>> (about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight
>> gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter
>> of the total energy use for his station.
>>
>> If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves
>> perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is
>> between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
>> (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account
>> their 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and
>> cigarettes or not.
>>
>> Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
>> equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly
>> more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total
>> energy used per vehicle would need to include that power used as well.
>>
>> Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to
>> customer attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh
>> available per day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250
>> Wh/mi, that would translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of
>> electric driving. Or enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs
>> doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition
>> model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to
>> shut down one gas station.
>>
>> Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...
>>
>> Tom Keenan
>>
>>>  On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an
>>> answer, based on this EIA graph:
>>>
>>>  http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
>>>
>>>  Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of
>>> residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from
>>> EIA, for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average
>>> commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.
>>>
>>>  https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
>>>
>>>  Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
>>> accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver
>>> goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
>>>
>>>  So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses
>>> enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
>>>
>>>  Peri
>>>
>>>  -- Original Message --
>>>  From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
>>>  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>>  Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
>>>  Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
>>> pumping gas too!)
>>>
>  : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
> overloading
>  our power network, senior Tories fear.

  Typical right wing ignorance.

  What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
 stations
  remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station
 consume  My
  wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50
 EV's.  Now
  add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations,
 and
  turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
  distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity
 consumed
  pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!

  Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see
 if the
  owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will
 tell me how
  many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the
 number of
  cars and the amount of gas since he is in 

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Why would they go away?  People don't go to convenience stores to buy 
gas.  Certainly buying gas encourages buying something inside but the 
demand for convenience shopping was around long before service station 
morphed into convenience stores with gas pumps.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Brandon Hines via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 05-Dec-15 7:22:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)


If people primarily charge at home then wouldn't most convenience 
stores

go away?

Brandon

On 12/05/2015 11:44 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

 That's great info, Tom!

 I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing
 your numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 
or

 so miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!

 It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this 
store

 is an anomaly.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Tom Keenan" 
 To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
 List" 
 Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
 pumping gas too!)


 About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner
 what the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said
 about 350 kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas
 heating). I asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no,
 that was the amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill
 as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that
 amount per month.

 Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers
 (about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight
 gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a 
quarter

 of the total energy use for his station.

 If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves
 perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is
 between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
 (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account
 their 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and
 cigarettes or not.

 Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
 equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use 
vastly

 more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total
 energy used per vehicle would need to include that power used as 
well.


 Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to
 customer attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh
 available per day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250
 Wh/mi, that would translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of
 electric driving. Or enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 
EVs

 doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition
 model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to
 shut down one gas station.

 Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

 Tom Keenan

  On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 


 wrote:

  That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an
 answer, based on this EIA graph:

  
http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21


  Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of
 residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from
 EIA, for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average
 commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.

  https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3

  Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
 accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver
 goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.

  So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station 
uses

 enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.

  Peri

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
  Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
  Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
 pumping gas too!)


  : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
 overloading
  our power network, senior Tories fear.


  Typical right wing ignorance.

  What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
 stations
  remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station
 consume  My
  wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50
 EV's.  Now
  add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas 
stations,

 and
  turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
  distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity
 consumed
  pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!

  Tonight I'm going to drop