Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Of course I understand that. But there are other options that don't require an 
ICE.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 26, 2017, at 3:59 PM, jim--- via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Apparently you can't comprehend that someone may want / need to drive 600 - 
> 1250 miles in a day - where even Tesla SuperCharger charge times would 
> substantially add to the length of day.  Or drive 100 miles of hard off road 
> (which eats gas FAR faster than highway) while carrying a ton or more of 
> stuff.
> 
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 09:35
> To: "Peri Hartman" 
> Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
> List" 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
> EV-range sweet spot
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Sorry, I should have been clearer.
> 
> You ended with the comment that we still need ICEs. I don't understand why.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Better to drive a rented ICE for a 1000 mile round trip a time or two per
year if it gives one the flexibility to then be able to drive an EV for
the other 15,000 miles on clean energy.

So being polluting 7% of the time to be clean the other 93% is "better"
than not buing an EV because of the annual trip to grammas and then being
dirty 100% of the time.

An EV is not supposed to solve all transportation problems.  But it is
best for the 90% solution that is local.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz
via EV
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 11:49 AM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi
EV-range sweet spot

Why would a polluting ICE be better than a ZEV?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:
>
> Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. At
least for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 100kW? That's
still 40-50 minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I can rent an ICE on those
occasions. But then we still need ICEs.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "brucedp5" 
> Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi
> EV-range sweet spot
>
>>
>>
>> % These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more
>> than 50 miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public
>> is only thinking what those same ice experts have told them: more
>> range is better, thus more range sells. %
>>
>> http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-sa
>> y-theres-no-need
>> 746 miles on a charge? Experts say there’s no need Oct 22, 2017
>> Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press
>>
>> [image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
>> http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1
>> /EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
>> (bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the brakes
>> on the idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be
>> tied to an ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet
>> spot for battery range might already have been reached ]
>>
>> DETROIT — Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be
>> able
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Seth Rothenberg via EV]

I definitely can see a need for about 300 miles - From Passaic to
Killington is 250 miles.
With Skis on the roof and heater on the toes, more will be needed.

But I believe the pressure will be on to solve the charge-in-transit
challenge.
I grew up in NYC.  Most people in NYC get to work by grid-connected EVs.
They call them Subways, and have for 100 years

Those exact methods won't work, but I imagine
it will be possible to charge inductively in motion in the future.

Then, onboard range will be someone less critical.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[jim--- via EV]

Apparently you can't comprehend that someone may want / need to drive 600 - 
1250 miles in a day - where even Tesla SuperCharger charge times would 
substantially add to the length of day.  Or drive 100 miles of hard off road 
(which eats gas FAR faster than highway) while carrying a ton or more of stuff.
 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
 


-Original Message-
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 09:35
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
EV-range sweet spot



Yes. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

You ended with the comment that we still need ICEs. I don't understand why.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Yeah, it could. Different discussion.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 26-Oct-17 3:01:24 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 
750mi EV-range sweet spot


I completely get and agree with what you say. But that trip can be done 
emission-free, and ICE-free with an FCEV. Hence my pushback on "But 
then we still need ICEs."


Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 26, 2017, at 9:40 AM, "Peri Hartman"  wrote:

Oh, simple. If I want to take a 300 mile trip, and my EV can go 200+ 
miles on a charge, I will need to stop for an hour to charge. You and 
I might be willing to do that, but most people will not. And some 
people drive 600 or miles in a day. They absolutely will not tolerate 
3 hours of down time.


Further, you might not find a level 3 charger at the right point, so 
you may need to charge when you still have 50-100 miles range left, 
meaning even more down time.


Further, what do you do during that hour? If there happens to be a 
level 3 charger at a place you want to be and you will enjoy the down 
time, no problem. If it happens to be at a convenience store with 
nothing of much interest near by, how many bottles of water and chips 
can you buy while passing the time?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 26-Oct-17 9:35:02 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for 
a 750mi EV-range sweet spot



Yes. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

You ended with the comment that we still need ICEs. I don't 
understand why.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2017, at 9:09 AM, "Peri Hartman"  
wrote:


Are you asking me? I'm sorry but I don't understand why you are 
asking the question. Personally, I don't think an ICE is better, 
environmentally, than an EV.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 26-Oct-17 8:49:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 
750mi EV-range sweet spot



Why would a polluting ICE be better than a ZEV?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:


Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. 
At least for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 
100kW? That's still 40-50 minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I 
can rent an ICE on those occasions. But then we still need ICEs.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 
750mi EV-range sweet spot





% These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for 
more than 50
miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is 
only thinking
what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, 
thus more

range sells. %

http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
746 miles on a charge? Experts say there?fs no need
Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press

[image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
(bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the 
brakes on the
idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied 
to an
ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot 
for battery

range might already have been reached
]

DETROIT ?\ Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should 
be able





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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Yes. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

You ended with the comment that we still need ICEs. I don't understand why.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 26, 2017, at 9:09 AM, "Peri Hartman"  wrote:
> 
> Are you asking me? I'm sorry but I don't understand why you are asking the 
> question. Personally, I don't think an ICE is better, environmentally, than 
> an EV.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Cc:
> Sent: 26-Oct-17 8:49:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
> EV-range sweet spot
> 
>> Why would a polluting ICE be better than a ZEV?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. At least 
>>> for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 100kW? That's still 
>>> 40-50 minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I can rent an ICE on those 
>>> occasions. But then we still need ICEs.
>>> 
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> Cc: "brucedp5" 
>>> Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
>>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
>>> EV-range sweet spot
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> % These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more than 50
>>>> miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is only 
>>>> thinking
>>>> what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, thus more
>>>> range sells. %
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
>>>> 746 miles on a charge? Experts say there?fs no need
>>>> Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press
>>>> 
>>>> [image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
>>>> http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
>>>> (bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the brakes on the
>>>> idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied to an
>>>> ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot for battery
>>>> range might already have been reached
>>>> ]
>>>> 
>>>> DETROIT ?\ Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be able
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Why would a polluting ICE be better than a ZEV?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. At least 
> for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 100kW? That's still 40-50 
> minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I can rent an ICE on those occasions. But 
> then we still need ICEs.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "brucedp5" 
> Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range 
> sweet spot
> 
>> 
>> 
>> % These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more than 50
>> miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is only thinking
>> what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, thus more
>> range sells. %
>> 
>> http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
>> 746 miles on a charge? Experts say there’s no need
>> Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press
>> 
>> [image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
>> http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
>> (bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the brakes on the
>> idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied to an
>> ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot for battery
>> range might already have been reached
>> ]
>> 
>> DETROIT ― Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be able 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Well, and that essentially proves my point. Tesla has truly fast 
chargers. The rest of us get about 50kW at best. The weak link at this 
point in adoption is the charging.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 26-Oct-17 10:06:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
EV-range sweet spot





On 10/26/2017 11:40 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Oh, simple. If I want to take a 300 mile trip, and my EV can go 200+ 
miles on a charge, I will need to stop for an hour to charge. You and 
I might be willing to do that, but most people will not. And some 
people drive 600 or miles in a day. They absolutely will not tolerate 
3 hours of down time.


Teslas charge at up to 400 mph.  For the lower half of the capacity, 
the rate is typically more than 200 mph.  With the normal SuperCharger 
spacing of about 100 miles, charge times are rarely as much as 1/2 
hour.  Tesla drivers pretty quickly learn to minimize charging time by 
using only the middle portion of the battery capacity, something like 
arriving with 20 miles of remaining range and charging to 150-180 miles 
of range.  Granted, sometimes an hour of charging is necessary but that 
happens infrequently.  For a 300 mile trip, with some charging 
opportunity at the destination, only about 15 minutes of charging would 
be needed somewhere in the last half of the trip.


Further, you might not find a level 3 charger at the right point, so 
you may need to charge when you still have 50-100 miles range left, 
meaning even more down time.


With a Tesla, you know how many working and available stalls are at 
your next stop.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 


I am not seeing Mark's posts.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Willie via EV]

On 10/26/2017 11:40 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Oh, simple. If I want to take a 300 mile trip, and my EV can go 200+ 
miles on a charge, I will need to stop for an hour to charge. You and I 
might be willing to do that, but most people will not. And some people 
drive 600 or miles in a day. They absolutely will not tolerate 3 hours 
of down time.


Teslas charge at up to 400 mph.  For the lower half of the capacity, the 
rate is typically more than 200 mph.  With the normal SuperCharger 
spacing of about 100 miles, charge times are rarely as much as 1/2 hour. 
 Tesla drivers pretty quickly learn to minimize charging time by using 
only the middle portion of the battery capacity, something like arriving 
with 20 miles of remaining range and charging to 150-180 miles of range. 
 Granted, sometimes an hour of charging is necessary but that happens 
infrequently.  For a 300 mile trip, with some charging opportunity at 
the destination, only about 15 minutes of charging would be needed 
somewhere in the last half of the trip.


Further, you might not find a level 3 charger at the right point, so you 
may need to charge when you still have 50-100 miles range left, meaning 
even more down time.


With a Tesla, you know how many working and available stalls are at your 
next stop.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 


I am not seeing Mark's posts.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Oh, simple. If I want to take a 300 mile trip, and my EV can go 200+ 
miles on a charge, I will need to stop for an hour to charge. You and I 
might be willing to do that, but most people will not. And some people 
drive 600 or miles in a day. They absolutely will not tolerate 3 hours 
of down time.


Further, you might not find a level 3 charger at the right point, so you 
may need to charge when you still have 50-100 miles range left, meaning 
even more down time.


Further, what do you do during that hour? If there happens to be a level 
3 charger at a place you want to be and you will enjoy the down time, no 
problem. If it happens to be at a convenience store with nothing of much 
interest near by, how many bottles of water and chips can you buy while 
passing the time?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 26-Oct-17 9:35:02 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 
750mi EV-range sweet spot



Yes. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

You ended with the comment that we still need ICEs. I don't understand 
why.


Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 26, 2017, at 9:09 AM, "Peri Hartman"  wrote:

Are you asking me? I'm sorry but I don't understand why you are asking 
the question. Personally, I don't think an ICE is better, 
environmentally, than an EV.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 26-Oct-17 8:49:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 
750mi EV-range sweet spot



Why would a polluting ICE be better than a ZEV?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. At 
least for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 100kW? 
That's still 40-50 minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I can rent an 
ICE on those occasions. But then we still need ICEs.


Peri

-- Original Message ------
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
EV-range sweet spot





% These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more 
than 50
miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is only 
thinking
what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, 
thus more

range sells. %

http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
746 miles on a charge? Experts say there?fs no need
Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press

[image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
(bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the 
brakes on the
idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied 
to an
ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot for 
battery

range might already have been reached
]

DETROIT ?\ Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be 
able





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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Are you asking me? I'm sorry but I don't understand why you are asking 
the question. Personally, I don't think an ICE is better, 
environmentally, than an EV.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 26-Oct-17 8:49:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
EV-range sweet spot



Why would a polluting ICE be better than a ZEV?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. At 
least for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 100kW? 
That's still 40-50 minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I can rent an 
ICE on those occasions. But then we still need ICEs.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
EV-range sweet spot





% These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more 
than 50
miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is only 
thinking
what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, 
thus more

range sells. %

http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
746 miles on a charge? Experts say there?fs no need
Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press

[image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
(bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the brakes 
on the
idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied to 
an
ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot for 
battery

range might already have been reached
]

DETROIT ?\ Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be 
able


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Yep. 240, or maybe 300, miles range is sufficient for road trips. At 
least for me. But charge time has to be quicker. At least 100kW? That's 
still 40-50 minutes for an 80% charge. For now, I can rent an ICE on 
those occasions. But then we still need ICEs.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 25-Oct-17 10:14:59 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi 
EV-range sweet spot





% These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more 
than 50
miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is only 
thinking
what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, thus 
more

range sells. %

http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
746 miles on a charge? Experts say there’s no need
Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press

[image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
(bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the brakes on 
the

idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied to an
ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot for 
battery

range might already have been reached
]

DETROIT — Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be able 
to

travel almost 746 miles on a single charge by 2020.

It was considered a bold statement from a CEO known for making bold
statements, but it was also a sentiment that reflected a widely held 
belief
in the inevitability of, and need for, increasingly longer-range 
electric
vehicles if the vehicles were ever to truly gain traction with 
consumers.


Electric vehicle battery technology has improved since that 2015 
prediction
and some vehicles continue to push the limits for range — some versions 
of
Tesla’s Model S luxury sedan already rate at more than 330 miles on a 
charge
under normal conditions, and an Italian Tesla owners group said in 
August

that it managed 670 miles driving with no air-conditioning at 25 mph.

But recent assessments by industry watchers and auto executives are 
tapping
the brakes on the idea that the foreseeable future of mainstream 
electric

vehicles will be tied to an ever-expanding range.

Some experts now say they believe the sweet spot for battery range 
might

already have been reached.

“I wouldn’t expect to see vehicles go much beyond about 300 miles per 
range
and I think most mainstream EVs are probably going to be in the, kind 
of
where the Bolt is now, 200 to 240 miles of range, and I think the 
200-mile
threshold is really kind of the sweet spot for EV,” said Sam 
Abuelsamid, a

senior analyst at Navigant Research who is based in the Detroit area.

The idea will get tested as an increasing number of automakers roll out 
new

electric vehicles in coming years.

Ford and General Motors, for instance, made major EV (shorthand for 
electric
vehicles) announcements in recent weeks, with Ford saying it would 
invest
$4.5 billion and introduce 13 new electric vehicles in the next five 
years
and GM promising to have more than 20 EVs on sale by 2023. Plenty of 
other
automakers — Volvo, Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz among them — have also 
made
recent EV announcements as countries like China threaten to eventually 
ban

gas engines.

A major reason that EV battery range might not see significant 
increases in

the near term is simply cost, which increases with more capable
electric-vehicle batteries. Adding more battery to an electric vehicle 
also
adds weight, which would affect vehicle payload — a consideration 
likely to

be more important as automakers launch electric trucks and SUVs.

When Nissan brought its 2018 Leaf to a technology conference in Detroit 
in

September, the company said it was targeting value customers with the
150-mile electric range vehicle, with a price tag starting at under 
$30,000.
That level marks an improvement over the previous version’s 84-mile 
range,

but it falls well short of the Bolt and the various Tesla models. The
company does plan to release a longer-range version, but the issue of 
adding

cost gets at a key issue for automakers.

Both the Bolt and the Tesla Model 3, Tesla’s attempt to launch an 
electric
vehicle for the masses — only get below $30,000 with government 
incentives.
The Model 3 starts at $35,000 but there’s a waiting list and the base 
model
may not offer what Tesla fans expect, meaning the true cost would 
likely be

higher. The Bolt, which is now available nationwide, starts at $37,495
before a $7,500 federal tax credit.

Abuelsamid noted that each manufacturer has a limited number of 
credits, and
he expects both GM and Tesla to hit that limit as early as next year. 
That

would mean the cost for some of the most popular EVs will likely go up
because the Trump administration is not ex

[EVDL] EVLN: (ice) Experts say there's no need for a 750mi EV-range sweet spot

[brucedp5 via EV]

% These were the same ice-bozos that said there is no need for more than 50
miles, nor 100 mile, nor 200+ mile range ... but the public is only thinking
what those same ice experts have told them: more range is better, thus more
range sells. %

http://www.theledger.com/news/20171022/746-miles-on-charge-experts-say-theres-no-need
746 miles on a charge? Experts say there’s no need
Oct 22, 2017  Eric D. Lawrence / Detroit Free Press

[image  / ERIC D LAWRENCE/DETROIT FREE PRESS
http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20171022/NEWS/171029803/EP/1/1/EP-171029803.jpg?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960
(bolt)  Industry watchers and auto executives are tapping the brakes on the
idea that the future of mainstream electric vehicles will be tied to an
ever-expanding range. Some now say they believe the sweet spot for battery
range might already have been reached
]

DETROIT — Elon Musk predicted two years ago that a Tesla should be able to
travel almost 746 miles on a single charge by 2020.

It was considered a bold statement from a CEO known for making bold
statements, but it was also a sentiment that reflected a widely held belief
in the inevitability of, and need for, increasingly longer-range electric
vehicles if the vehicles were ever to truly gain traction with consumers.

Electric vehicle battery technology has improved since that 2015 prediction
and some vehicles continue to push the limits for range — some versions of
Tesla’s Model S luxury sedan already rate at more than 330 miles on a charge
under normal conditions, and an Italian Tesla owners group said in August
that it managed 670 miles driving with no air-conditioning at 25 mph.

But recent assessments by industry watchers and auto executives are tapping
the brakes on the idea that the foreseeable future of mainstream electric
vehicles will be tied to an ever-expanding range.

Some experts now say they believe the sweet spot for battery range might
already have been reached.

“I wouldn’t expect to see vehicles go much beyond about 300 miles per range
and I think most mainstream EVs are probably going to be in the, kind of
where the Bolt is now, 200 to 240 miles of range, and I think the 200-mile
threshold is really kind of the sweet spot for EV,” said Sam Abuelsamid, a
senior analyst at Navigant Research who is based in the Detroit area.

The idea will get tested as an increasing number of automakers roll out new
electric vehicles in coming years.

Ford and General Motors, for instance, made major EV (shorthand for electric
vehicles) announcements in recent weeks, with Ford saying it would invest
$4.5 billion and introduce 13 new electric vehicles in the next five years
and GM promising to have more than 20 EVs on sale by 2023. Plenty of other
automakers — Volvo, Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz among them — have also made
recent EV announcements as countries like China threaten to eventually ban
gas engines.

A major reason that EV battery range might not see significant increases in
the near term is simply cost, which increases with more capable
electric-vehicle batteries. Adding more battery to an electric vehicle also
adds weight, which would affect vehicle payload — a consideration likely to
be more important as automakers launch electric trucks and SUVs.

When Nissan brought its 2018 Leaf to a technology conference in Detroit in
September, the company said it was targeting value customers with the
150-mile electric range vehicle, with a price tag starting at under $30,000.
That level marks an improvement over the previous version’s 84-mile range,
but it falls well short of the Bolt and the various Tesla models. The
company does plan to release a longer-range version, but the issue of adding
cost gets at a key issue for automakers.

Both the Bolt and the Tesla Model 3, Tesla’s attempt to launch an electric
vehicle for the masses — only get below $30,000 with government incentives.
The Model 3 starts at $35,000 but there’s a waiting list and the base model
may not offer what Tesla fans expect, meaning the true cost would likely be
higher. The Bolt, which is now available nationwide, starts at $37,495
before a $7,500 federal tax credit.

Abuelsamid noted that each manufacturer has a limited number of credits, and
he expects both GM and Tesla to hit that limit as early as next year. That
would mean the cost for some of the most popular EVs will likely go up
because the Trump administration is not expected to seek an extension of
those credits.

Britta Gross, GM’s director of advanced vehicle commercialization policy,
discussed the issue of battery range in August at a state conference
weighing the best route to expand Michigan’s public charging infrastructure,
saying that she does not believe the future of electric vehicles is in
batteries that can power a vehicle for close to 800 miles on a charge.

“No, I don’t see that happening at all,” she said, noting that longer ranges
add cost and an automaker’s priority now is in reducing the cost of
technology for electric