Re: Belief in Big Bang?

2012-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/25/2012 11:04 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi John, On 1/25/2012 11:57 PM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:27 PM, Stephen P. King > wrote: Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> Wrote: > A "constant" that Einstein himself called th

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread acw
On 1/27/2012 05:55, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 26, 9:32 pm, acw wrote: There is nothing on the display except transitions of pixels. There is nothing in the universe, except transitions of states Only if you assume that our experience of the universe is not part of the universe. If you und

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2012 5:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: They literally are just internal though. It's only our understanding that links the stops and gos with anything other than exactly what they are. With a computer, the external sources of information can never be internalized, just loaded and executed.

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2012 5:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 26, 6:54 pm, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2012 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Ok, so how does it effect the entropy of the structures? The red house, the white house, and the mixed house (even if an interesting pattern is made in the bricks), all

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 9:32 pm, acw wrote: > There is nothing on the display except transitions of pixels. There is > nothing in the universe, except transitions of states Only if you assume that our experience of the universe is not part of the universe. If you understand that pixels are generated by equip

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Russell Standish
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 05:27:43PM -0800, Craig Weinberg wrote: > On Jan 26, 5:52 pm, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Jan 26, 1:19 am, Pierz wrote: > > > > > of my own here: no properties can emerge from a complex system that > > > are not present in primitive form in the parts of that system. The

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread acw
On 1/27/2012 03:27, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 26, 5:52 pm, Russell Standish wrote: On Jan 26, 1:19 am, Pierz wrote: of my own here: no properties can emerge from a complex system that are not present in primitive form in the parts of that system. There What about gliders emerging from t

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 5:52 pm, Russell Standish wrote: > On Jan 26, 1:19 am, Pierz wrote: > > > of my own here: no properties can emerge from a complex system that > > are not present in primitive form in the parts of that system. There > > What about gliders emerging from the rules of Game of Life? There a

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 6:13 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2012 2:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 26, 5:24 pm, meekerdb  wrote: > >> On 1/26/2012 1:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > My chasing you with an ax would be no different than colon cancer or > >>   >    heart disease

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 6:54 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2012 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > Ok, so how does it effect the entropy of the structures? The red > > house, the white house, and the mixed house (even if an interesting > > pattern is made in the bricks), all behave in a physically identical

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2012 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Ok, so how does it effect the entropy of the structures? The red house, the white house, and the mixed house (even if an interesting pattern is made in the bricks), all behave in a physically identical way, do they not? No they don't. They reflect ph

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 1:01 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > I thought that the whole point of information theory is to move beyond > > quality into pure quantification. > >  Yes. > > > > the suggestion that information can be defined as not having anything

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2012 2:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 26, 5:24 pm, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2012 1:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: My chasing you with an ax would be no different than colon cancer or >heart disease chasing you. You would not project criminality on the cancer Yes exactly,

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 5:24 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2012 1:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > >>> My chasing you with an ax would be no different than colon cancer or > >>> >  >  heart disease chasing you. You would not project criminality on the > >>> > cancer > > >> >  Yes exactly, I want any cancer in

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Russell Standish
On Jan 26, 1:19 am, Pierz wrote: > of my own here: no properties can emerge from a complex system that > are not present in primitive form in the parts of that system. There What about gliders emerging from the rules of Game of Life? There are no primitive form gliders in the transition table, n

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 1:19 am, Pierz wrote: > of my own here: no properties can emerge from a complex system that > are not present in primitive form in the parts of that system. There > is nothing mystical about emergent properties. When the emergent > property of ‘pumping blood’ arises out of collections

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2012 1:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: My chasing you with an ax would be no different than colon cancer or > > heart disease chasing you. You would not project criminality on the cancer > > Yes exactly, I want any cancer in my body to die and I want the guy > chasing me with a bloody a

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 26, 12:16 am, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012  Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > My chasing you with an ax would be no different than colon cancer or > > heart disease chasing you. You would not project criminality on the cancer > > Yes exactly, I want any cancer in my body to die and I

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2012, at 07:19, Pierz wrote: As I continue to ponder the UDA, I keep coming back to a niggling doubt that an arithmetical ontology can ever really give a satisfactory explanation of qualia. Of course the comp warning here is a bit "diabolical". Comp predicts that consciousness and

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-26 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > I thought that the whole point of information theory is to move beyond > quality into pure quantification. Yes. > > the suggestion that information can be defined as not having anything to > do with the difference between order and the

Re: Belief in Big Bang?

2012-01-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2012, at 00:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: This is what I am trying to say with Bruno about numbers starting from 1 instead of 0. From 1 we can subtract 1 and get 0, So we get 0 after all. Sure. Although 0 might be not be a number so much as neutralizing or clearing of the enumerating

Re: Belief in Big Bang?

2012-01-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Stephen, On 25 Jan 2012, at 20:01, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, I still think that we can synchronize our ideas! Well, assuming there is no flaws in UDA, and in AUDA (which assumes comp, but also the classical theory of knowledge, that is the axioms of the modal logic S4

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread acw
On 1/26/2012 15:28, Pierz wrote: Arithmetic itself can admit many interpretation and axioms tell you what '>arithmetic' isn't and what theorems must follow, not what it is I don't see that. I mean, sure you can't say what a number 'is' beyond a certain point, but everything falters on a certain

Re: Belief in Big Bang?

2012-01-26 Thread ronaldheld
I have no problem(for now) accepting the Big Bang theory+inflation paradigm. I admit I do not know what dark matter is or how many inflaton fields there are. I can accept the cosmological constant as the source of dark energy. It seems better at this time to have the two dark quantities than to alt

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread Pierz
>Arithmetic itself can admit many interpretation and axioms tell you what '>arithmetic' isn't and what theorems must follow, not what it is I don't see that. I mean, sure you can't say what a number 'is' beyond a certain point, but everything falters on a certain circularity at some point. With ma

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-26 Thread acw
On 1/26/2012 08:19, Pierz wrote: As I continue to ponder the UDA, I keep coming back to a niggling doubt that an arithmetical ontology can ever really give a satisfactory explanation of qualia. It seems to me that imputing qualia to calculations (indeed consciousness at all, thought that may be t

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-26 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > > Let me suggest a very simple case to understand better what you are > saying. Let us consider a string "10" for simplicity. Let us > consider the next cases. I will cite first the thermodynamic > properties of Ag and Al from CODAT