date:20130608

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb


On 6/8/2013 5:37 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it is not a 
logically consistent concept to begin with. 


That's your metaphysical assumption.  It doesn't follow from QM.

If one starts from a logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical 
system whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a generic multiverse 
scenario.


In that case, how do you define 'physical'?

Brent



Saibal

Citeren meekerdb :


On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary oranges. 
Anything 'could be'.


That's my point.  Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical consistency 
(not self contradictory).  But in the sense of 'be' that requires a universe and 
observers there appear to be other, nomological constraints.  So there could be an 
animal that looks superficially like and elephant and lives on a planet who's 
atmosphere is as dense as water and is pink.  But it couldn't also have the same DNA 
and metabolic system as and elephant.  So it would only 'be a flying pink elephant' 
because we use the words to denote a certain similarity in appearance.


Brent


Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based conventional 
EVERYTHING List?
Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well? BTW - IMO  
flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 'gaseous' medium, so 'swimming' 
can be considered an alternate for flying. - PINK Whales? 

Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
JM

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb > wrote:


On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl  wrote:

They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on 
this list.
In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not 
strictly
forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.

Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense
atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this 
topic, it was
suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.


Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  Could the 
elephants
be pink?


Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Craig Weinberg

In my view, mathematics refers to two things:

1) A private experience of imagined sensory figures or symbols which 
represent quantitative values and linear reasoning.

2) When applied to public objects, math provides a logic which is derived 
from the common sense of spatial extension: fixed positions and linear 
process.

Math can be confusing because it is *a subjective representation of that 
which we perceive as most objective or the 'essence' of objectivity.*Unlike a 
private fiction, math can be publicly validated. Because math is 
actually a minimalist aesthetic, it can only produce one dimensional 
drivers for public objects. For this reason,, a multi-aesthetic experience 
like human consciousness can never be assembled from single aesthetic 
effects. Mathematics is effective, and is the essence of effectiveness 
because it has no affect - no feeling, disposition, preference, or 
intention. All appearances of affect related to mathematics are derived 
from the private, multi-dimensional experience of math (1) rather than the 
(2) motive of math after it has been compiled and reduced to a single 
dimension public effect.

Craig

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:31:19 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> For your entertainment: 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TbNymweHW4E#!

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

My complaint is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent definition of
existence!


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Stephen Paul King  wrote:

>
> smi...@zonnet.nl 
> via
>  googlegroups.com
> 8:37 PM (31 minutes ago)
>  to everything-list
>  But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that
> it is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts from
> a logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical system
> whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a generic
> multiverse scenario.
>
> Saibal
>
> Hi Saibal,
>
> Does existence mean "has a physical structure that can be measured by
> arbitrary observers"? If so, how can a number 'exist'?
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 8:37 PM,  wrote:
>
>> But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it
>> is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts from a
>> logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical system
>> whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a generic
>> multiverse scenario.
>>
>> Saibal
>>
>> Citeren meekerdb :
>>
>>  On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
>>>
 You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with
 imaginary oranges. Anything 'could be'.

>>>
>>> That's my point.  Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical
>>> consistency (not self contradictory).  But in the sense of 'be' that
>>> requires a universe and observers there appear to be other, nomological
>>> constraints.  So there could be an animal that looks superficially like and
>>> elephant and lives on a planet who's atmosphere is as dense as water and is
>>> pink.  But it couldn't also have the same DNA and metabolic system as and
>>> elephant.  So it would only 'be a flying pink elephant' because we use the
>>> words to denote a certain similarity in appearance.
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>>
>>>  Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based
 conventional EVERYTHING List?
 Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as
 well? BTW - IMO  flying is not restricted to a conventionally called
 'gaseous' medium, so 'swimming' can be considered an alternate for flying.
 - PINK Whales? 
 Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
 JM

 On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb >>> meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:


 On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl 
 wrote:

 They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even
 within
 conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed
 recently on this list.
 In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is
 not strictly
 forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.

 Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an
 extemely dense
 atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about
 this topic, it was
 suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.


 Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?
  Could the elephants
 be pink?


 Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

smi...@zonnet.nl
via
 googlegroups.com
8:37 PM (31 minutes ago)
to everything-list
But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it
is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts from a
logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical system
whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a generic
multiverse scenario.

Saibal

Hi Saibal,

Does existence mean "has a physical structure that can be measured by
arbitrary observers"? If so, how can a number 'exist'?


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 8:37 PM,  wrote:

> But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it
> is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts from a
> logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical system
> whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a generic
> multiverse scenario.
>
> Saibal
>
> Citeren meekerdb :
>
>  On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
>>
>>> You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with
>>> imaginary oranges. Anything 'could be'.
>>>
>>
>> That's my point.  Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical
>> consistency (not self contradictory).  But in the sense of 'be' that
>> requires a universe and observers there appear to be other, nomological
>> constraints.  So there could be an animal that looks superficially like and
>> elephant and lives on a planet who's atmosphere is as dense as water and is
>> pink.  But it couldn't also have the same DNA and metabolic system as and
>> elephant.  So it would only 'be a flying pink elephant' because we use the
>> words to denote a certain similarity in appearance.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>
>>  Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based
>>> conventional EVERYTHING List?
>>> Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as
>>> well? BTW - IMO  flying is not restricted to a conventionally called
>>> 'gaseous' medium, so 'swimming' can be considered an alternate for flying.
>>> - PINK Whales? 
>>> Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
>>> JM
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb >> meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even
>>> within
>>> conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed
>>> recently on this list.
>>> In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is
>>> not strictly
>>> forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.
>>>
>>> Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely
>>> dense
>>> atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about
>>> this topic, it was
>>> suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.
>>>
>>>
>>> Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  Could
>>> the elephants
>>> be pink?
>>>
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread smitra

But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that 
it is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts 
from a logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical 
system whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a 
generic multiverse scenario.


Saibal

Citeren meekerdb :


On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with 
imaginary oranges. Anything 'could be'.


That's my point.  Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is 
logical consistency (not self contradictory).  But in the sense of 
'be' that requires a universe and observers there appear to be other, 
nomological constraints.  So there could be an animal that looks 
superficially like and elephant and lives on a planet who's 
atmosphere is as dense as water and is pink.  But it couldn't also 
have the same DNA and metabolic system as and elephant.  So it would 
only 'be a flying pink elephant' because we use the words to denote a 
certain similarity in appearance.


Brent


Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based 
conventional EVERYTHING List?
Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as 
well? BTW - IMO  flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 
'gaseous' medium, so 'swimming' can be considered an alternate for 
flying. - PINK Whales? 

Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
JM

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb > wrote:


On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl  wrote:

They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed 
recently on this list.
In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that 
is not strictly

forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.

Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an 
extemely dense
atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago 
about this topic, it was

suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.


Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  
Could the elephants

be pink?


Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

I am trying to make a point about existence...


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 7:49 PM, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 6/8/2013 4:38 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi Brent,
>
>  So what would a computer generated simulation of a Pink Elephant in a
> simulated world be? Would it exist?
>
>
> It would exist in the computer simulation.  But would it be a "Pink
> Elephant" - that seems like a question of semantics.  We look at the screen
> and say, "That's a pink elephant." but we don't mean that literally.
> Simulated people in the simulation may say, "That's a pink elephant." and
> mean it literally.
>
> Brent
>
>
>
>
>  On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:39 PM, meekerdb  wrote:
>
>>  On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
>>
>> You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary
>> oranges. Anything 'could be'.
>>
>>
>>  That's my point.  Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical
>> consistency (not self contradictory).  But in the sense of 'be' that
>> requires a universe and observers there appear to be other, nomological
>> constraints.  So there could be an animal that looks superficially like and
>> elephant and lives on a planet who's atmosphere is as dense as water and is
>> pink.  But it couldn't also have the same DNA and metabolic system as and
>> elephant.  So it would only 'be a flying pink elephant' because we use the
>> words to denote a certain similarity in appearance.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>
>>  Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based
>> conventional EVERYTHING List?
>> Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well?
>> BTW - IMO  flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 'gaseous'
>> medium, so 'swimming' can be considered an alternate for flying. - PINK
>> Whales? 
>> Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
>> JM
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb  wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>>>
 They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
 conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this
 list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not
 strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.

 Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense
 atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this topic,
 it was suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.

>>>
>>> Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  Could the
>>> elephants be pink?
>>>
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb

On 6/8/2013 4:38 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:

Hi Brent,

So what would a computer generated simulation of a Pink Elephant in a simulated world
be? Would it exist?

It would exist in the computer simulation. But would it be a "Pink Elephant" - that seems
like a question of semantics. We look at the screen and say, "That's a pink elephant."
but we don't mean that literally. Simulated people in the simulation may say, "That's a
pink elephant." and mean it literally.

Brent

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:39 PM, meekerdb > wrote:

On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:

You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary
oranges.
Anything 'could be'.

That's my point. Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical
consistency
(not self contradictory). But in the sense of 'be' that requires a
universe and
observers there appear to be other, nomological constraints. So there
could be an
animal that looks superficially like and elephant and lives on a planet
who's
atmosphere is as dense as water and is pink. But it couldn't also have the
same DNA
and metabolic system as and elephant. So it would only 'be a flying pink
elephant'
because we use the words to denote a certain similarity in appearance.

Brent

Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based
conventional
EVERYTHING List?
Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well?
BTW - IMO
flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 'gaseous' medium, so
'swimming' can be considered an alternate for flying. - PINK Whales?
Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
JM

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently
on this
list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is
not
strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.

Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely
dense
atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this
topic,
it was suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.

Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA? Could the
elephants be pink?

Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

Hi Brent,

So what would a computer generated simulation of a Pink Elephant in a
simulated world be? Would it exist?


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:39 PM, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
>
> You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary
> oranges. Anything 'could be'.
>
>
> That's my point.  Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical
> consistency (not self contradictory).  But in the sense of 'be' that
> requires a universe and observers there appear to be other, nomological
> constraints.  So there could be an animal that looks superficially like and
> elephant and lives on a planet who's atmosphere is as dense as water and is
> pink.  But it couldn't also have the same DNA and metabolic system as and
> elephant.  So it would only 'be a flying pink elephant' because we use the
> words to denote a certain similarity in appearance.
>
> Brent
>
>
>  Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based
> conventional EVERYTHING List?
> Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well?
> BTW - IMO  flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 'gaseous'
> medium, so 'swimming' can be considered an alternate for flying. - PINK
> Whales? 
> Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
> JM
>
> On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb  wrote:
>
>> On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>>
>>> They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
>>> conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this
>>> list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not
>>> strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.
>>>
>>> Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense
>>> atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this topic,
>>> it was suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.
>>>
>>
>> Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  Could the
>> elephants be pink?
>>
>>
>> Brent
>>
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb

On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote:
You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary oranges.
Anything 'could be'.

That's my point. Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical consistency (not
self contradictory). But in the sense of 'be' that requires a universe and observers
there appear to be other, nomological constraints. So there could be an animal that looks
superficially like and elephant and lives on a planet who's atmosphere is as dense as
water and is pink. But it couldn't also have the same DNA and metabolic system as and
elephant. So it would only 'be a flying pink elephant' because we use the words to denote
a certain similarity in appearance.

Brent

Question: would such "anything" be topic for this physicalist-based conventional
EVERYTHING List?
Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well? BTW - IMO
flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 'gaseous' medium, so 'swimming' can
be considered an alternate for flying. - PINK Whales?

Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
JM

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb > wrote:

On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on
this list.
In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not
strictly
forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.

Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense
atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this
topic, it was
suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.

Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA? Could the
elephants
be pink?

Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread John Mikes

You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary
oranges. Anything 'could be'. Question: would such "anything" be topic for
this physicalist-based conventional EVERYTHING List?
Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well?
BTW - IMO  flying is not restricted to a conventionally called 'gaseous'
medium, so 'swimming' can be considered an alternate for flying. - PINK
Whales? 
Rem: of course 'they' all exist - if not otherwise: in our mind.
JM

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, meekerdb  wrote:

> On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>
>> They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
>> conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this
>> list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not
>> strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.
>>
>> Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense
>> atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this topic,
>> it was suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.
>>
>
> Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  Could the
> elephants be pink?
>
>
> Brent
>
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb


On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within conventional 
physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this list. In the MWI or in 
eternal inflation models, everything that is not strictly forbidden by the conservation 
laws will happen.


Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense atmosphere, there 
was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this topic, it was suggested that you could 
have flying whales on such planets.


Could you identify them as elephants and whales by their DNA?  Could the 
elephants be pink?

Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb


On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote:


On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: 
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/


A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e. don't exist even 
though their complete description is self-consistent.  Everythingists apparently reject 
this idea.  Platonists seem to equate 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime 
you must believe 17 exists. I think this is wrong.  If you believe that a flying pink 
elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists?



Flying pink elephants are pink and not pink. That's why flying pink elephant 
can't exist.



A pink elephant is pink by construction.

Brent

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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

"And so I can easily prove that flying pink elephant does not exist, as far
as I am consistent."

Ah, Dear Bruno, you are not the only one that must agree that the elephant
does not exist (unless you embrace that you are a consistent solipsist!)


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:28 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

>
> On 08 Jun 2013, at 07:41, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> " If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a
> flying pink elephant exists?"
>
> Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is true
> (ala Bruno).
>
>
> Right, but like I said, I believe also that flying pink elephant are not
> pink. And so I can easily prove that flying pink elephant does not exist,
> as far as I am consistent.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:15 PM, meekerdb  wrote:
>
>>  On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>>
>> Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this:
>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/
>>
>>
>> A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e. don't
>> exist even though their complete description is self-consistent.
>> Everythingists apparently reject this idea.  Platonists seem to equate
>> 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime you must believe 17
>> exists.  I think this is wrong.  If you believe that a flying pink
>> elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists?
>>
>> Brent
>>
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

I agree, Saibal, but we don't really need to have an actual creature living
and breathing creature; any simulation of an 'elephant' will do. All that
matters is that the resources that support the 'creature' are verifiable in
multiple independent ways.


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 8:23 AM,  wrote:

> They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within
> conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this
> list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not
> strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.
>
> Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense
> atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this topic,
> it was suggested that you could have flying whales on such planets.
>
> Saibal
>
> Citeren Bruno Marchal :
>
>
>> On 08 Jun 2013, at 07:41, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>>
>>  " If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you  believe
>>> a flying pink elephant exists?"
>>>
>>> Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is  true
>>> (ala Bruno).
>>>
>>
>> Right, but like I said, I believe also that flying pink elephant are  not
>> pink. And so I can easily prove that flying pink elephant does not  exist,
>> as far as I am consistent.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:15 PM, meekerdb   wrote:
>>> On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>>>
 Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this:
 http://plato.stanford.edu/**entries/fictionalism-**mathematics/

>>>
>>> A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e.  don't
>>> exist even though their complete description is self- consistent.
>>>  Everythingists apparently reject this idea.  Platonists  seem to equate
>>> 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime you  must believe 17
>>> exists.  I think this is wrong.  If you believe that  a flying pink
>>> elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink  elephant exists?
>>>
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King

Wrong Bruno, Flying pink elephants could be 'off mass shell', virtual
elephants. Their color is a superposition of pink and not pink, which makes
them, on average, colorless unless we look *very* carefully.

Your test for 'reality' is unphysical because it assumes that *infinite
computations that consume no resources* can be accessed for confirmation of
&p. The argument is simple: a proof of a sentence is equivalent to a
computation of the model of the sentence. If the sentence is inconsistent,
then the model cannot be generated.

The *Reality* of p is the by-product of mutual agreement of all possible
testers/provers/interviewers of p, not some transcendent *Being*. There
there is a flaw in the premise of Arithmetic realism. Thus I present
'fictionalism' as a way to illustrate my counterexample to your claim of
'absolute truth' for Bp&p..


On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:02 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

>
> On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote:
>
>  On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this:
> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/
>
>
> A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e. don't
> exist even though their complete description is self-consistent.
> Everythingists apparently reject this idea.  Platonists seem to equate
> 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime you must believe 17
> exists.  I think this is wrong.  If you believe that a flying pink
> elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists?
>
>
>
> Flying pink elephants are pink and not pink. That's why flying pink
> elephant can't exist.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> Brent
>
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>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread smitra

They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within 
conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on 
this list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that 
is not strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen.


Flying pink elephants can e.g. exist on planets with an extemely dense 
atmosphere, there was a NGC documentary a few years ago about this 
topic, it was suggested that you could have flying whales on such 
planets.


Saibal

Citeren Bruno Marchal :



On 08 Jun 2013, at 07:41, Stephen Paul King wrote:

" If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you  
believe a flying pink elephant exists?"


Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is  
true (ala Bruno).


Right, but like I said, I believe also that flying pink elephant are  
not pink. And so I can easily prove that flying pink elephant does 
not  exist, as far as I am consistent.


Bruno








On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:15 PM, meekerdb   wrote:
On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: 
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/


A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e.  
don't exist even though their complete description is self- 
consistent.  Everythingists apparently reject this idea.  Platonists 
 seem to equate 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime 
you  must believe 17 exists.  I think this is wrong.  If you believe 
that  a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink 
 elephant exists?


Brent

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Bruno Marchal

On 08 Jun 2013, at 07:41, Stephen Paul King wrote:

" If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you
believe a flying pink elephant exists?"

Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is
true (ala Bruno).

Right, but like I said, I believe also that flying pink elephant are
not pink. And so I can easily prove that flying pink elephant does not
exist, as far as I am consistent.

Bruno

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:15 PM, meekerdb
wrote:

On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:

Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/

A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e.
don't exist even though their complete description is self-
consistent. Everythingists apparently reject this idea. Platonists
seem to equate 'true' with 'exists'. If you believe 17 is prime you
must believe 17 exists. I think this is wrong. If you believe that
a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink
elephant exists?

Brent

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote:


On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:

Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: 
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/


A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e.  
don't exist even though their complete description is self- 
consistent.  Everythingists apparently reject this idea.  Platonists  
seem to equate 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime you  
must believe 17 exists.  I think this is wrong.  If you believe that  
a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink  
elephant exists?



Flying pink elephants are pink and not pink. That's why flying pink  
elephant can't exist.


Bruno





Brent

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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