Re: Does all computation generate heat?

The Quran states The Deen-e-Qayimah (الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ) in three ayaat. It is generally translated as The Correct Religion, but I have come to realise that a more literal translation is The Standing Law. The following are the three laws which though we are free to choose to not to obey, we have b

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/3/2019 2:00 PM, cloudver...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" then does that mean there is realm for (A)

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/3/2019 1:35 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:19 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/3/2019 11:44 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List mailto:

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

As you see in the article on functionalism: Functionalism developed largely as an alternative to identity theory ... which is at least in the same ballpark as my view. @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 6:56:16 PM UTC-5, John C

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:50 PM wrote: > *I don't believe in the "functional equivalence" principle* > If you don't believe in that then logically you must believe you are the only conscious being in the universe. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I don't believe in the "*functional* equivalence" principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_(philosophy_of_mind) as it does not capture the nature of what is needed for consciousness (as many critics - some listed there - have pointed out). If I had to pick something vs. "cyber

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Then you're missing the point of the alternative I've been offering. It's not about the *matter itself*, it's about the cybernetic dynamics implemented in the matter. So I would predict that you could replace your brain neuron by neuron with functional equivalents and your consciousness wouldn't ch

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Well we know *some* matter has a psychical aspect: *human brains*. Unless one is a consciousness denier. - https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 4:58:04 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > Panpsychism of any flavor that iden

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Panpsychism of any flavor that identifies matter with a psychic aspect is subject to the problems I described earlier. It never occurred to me to google something like "theoretical psychology" but there's a lot there. How much of it is inter

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:44 PM wrote: *> Now one can generalize "computer": * > Turing could and did generalize a computer and did so way back in 1935. That's why he's famous, ...well for that and for breaking the German Enigma code. *> All software that has ever run has run on computers made

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

There is a whole spectrum of panpsychisms (plural) - from micropsychism to cosmophychism: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ cf. https://www.iep.utm.edu/panpsych/ That is not a "real science" yet is its basic problem of course. But consciousness science in general really isn't yet

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:00 PM wrote: > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] >> computation" then does that mean there is realm for (A) con

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 3:50 PM wrote: > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:19:00 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:58 AM wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 7:10:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/1/2019 4:24 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >>>

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" > then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) > physical [or material

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:19:00 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:58 AM > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 7:10:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/1/2019 4:24 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >>> > I would say that one could have a Jupiter planet-si

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

My question for panpsychists is similar to my question for Cosmin: what does it buy you in terms of explanations or predictions? Just blanket-asserting that all matter is conscious doesn't tell me anything about consciousness itself. For example, what would it mean for my fingernails to be conscio

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:19 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/3/2019 11:44 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> I think that is ri

Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology"

For this to work, as a function built into the universe (baked in), we'd need a substrate for the mind, I reckon.  -Original Message- From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List To: everything-list Sent: Fri, May 3, 2019 1:41 pm Subject: Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A conscio

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloudver...@gmail.com wrote: If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) physical [or material] computation? No, the theory is that all possible computations (the

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:44 PM wrote: > > > All software that has ever run has run on computers made of materials and > assembled in factories. > > There is no *spiritual/heavenly realm *- as fat as I know - where > software is running. > > Can you show me such a place? Have you seen it? > > The

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/3/2019 11:44 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: I think that is right.  But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. a computation written out on paper (or Bruno's mov

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:58 AM wrote: > > > On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 7:10:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/1/2019 4:24 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> > I would say that one could have a Jupiter planet-sized network of >> > Intel® Core™ processors + whatever distributed program run

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I see the coin made (as the ones lying on my desk right now made of metal) of matter. The two sides of the coin (of matter) are *physical *and *psychical*: https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/matter-gets-psyched/ If ὕ – the first Greek letter for “hyle”, upsilon (υ) with diacritics da

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

The argument assumes mathematical realism. It's not much of an assumption, and it has an intuitive appeal. Do we create properties of numbers or discover them? It seems more natural to me that we discover them, but reasonable people could argue. Asserting "there are no such things as mathematical

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I see them as two sides of the same coin - as in, you don't get one without the other. On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 3:00 PM wrote: > > > If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" > then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) > physical [or

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Re: " timeless mathematical reality" *there are no such things as mathematical objects* https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ cf. https://www.iep.utm.edu/mathfict/ @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 1:55:05 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > You should check ou

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

You should check out Bruno's Universal-Dovetailer-Argument (UDA). It shows that inasmuch as you believe your brain could substituted by an artificial one, the physical world must therefore be generated by computation. If so, all computation exists in a timeless mathematical reality, and our experie

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) physical [or material] computation? Is A like some spirit or ghost that invades the domain of B? Or does B invade A? @philipthrift On Friday, M

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Consciousness "executing" in an immaterial (nonphysical) realm is what Christians call *Heaven*. God made this place. Mormons have a more material afterlife idea, I think. @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 12:10:04 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > I think that is right. But when you consid

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > I think that is right. But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. > a computation written out on paper (or Bruno's movie graph) it becomes > apparent that consciousness must ultim

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

All software that has ever run has run on computers made of materials and assembled in factories. There is no *spiritual/heavenly realm *- as fat as I know - where software is running. Can you show me such a place? Have you seen it? @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 9:33:58 AM UTC-5,

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On 5/3/2019 8:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 3 May 2019, at 14:06, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: Pleasure for the all loving god to have creatures to torture ? But the problem of evil is not that simple. Indeed. But note that just the second theorem of Gödel provide

Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology) '

On 5/3/2019 7:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The current darkness comes from the separation of theology from science, making exact science inexact and human science inhuman. Religion is the only goal, That's the kind of absolutist pronouncement that priests and despots have used to justify o

Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology"

I once corresponded with Greg Stone (https://www.near-death.com/science/articles/dying-brain-theory.html), who advanced a similar theory and claimed that he could detach from his body and be present at places remote from it.  I offered to fund a research program by him (at the time I controlled

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I think that is right.  But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. a computation written out on paper (or Bruno's movie graph) it becomes apparent that consciousness must ultimately refer to other things.  Much is made of "self-awareness" but this is usually just having an internal model

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On 5/3/2019 6:06 AM, cloudver...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:18:33 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 1 May 2019, at 19:58, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 11:30:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 1 May 2019, at 10:56, clou

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On 5/3/2019 6:06 AM, John Clark wrote: /> Remembering God through prayer, and Praising God by repeatedly declaring that God is free from all imperfection, helps us to/[...] The religious believe that repeatedly declaring that God is sooo big and sooo strong and sooo super nice helps

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

Political control. Brent On 5/3/2019 4:46 AM, smitra wrote: What's the point of creating criminals and then to torture those criminals for eternity in hell? On 03-05-2019 04:41, Samiya Illias wrote: Considering how vast we have come to realise the Universe to be, do you honestly think our pr

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

> On 3 May 2019, at 14:06, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > Pleasure for the all loving god to have creatures to torture ? > > But the problem of evil is not that simple. Indeed. But note that just the second theorem of Gödel provides a clue. With provable(p) written []p consistent(p) = ~provable(

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

> On 3 May 2019, at 04:41, Samiya Illias wrote: > > Considering how vast we have come to realise the Universe to be, do you > honestly think our praise or our insults affect God in any way? Yes, []f does not implies f, in G (terrestrial reality) > Do you even realise how great the Creator

Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology) '

> On 1 May 2019, at 22:54, spudboy100 via Everything List > wrote: > > I will add, whether testable or not testable (yet) I ask, (my stubborn > ignorance free of charge! How can this make life better? Subjective, I know! Maybe my answer on quora might give light on this: How can we bring in

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

What happened to "only brains can be conscious"? Are you familiar with virtual machines? Machines simulated in software? On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM wrote: > > > The general response here is that there has never existed a program that > has executed outside a computer. And computers are ma

Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology"

> On 1 May 2019, at 18:15, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > But does Kastrup's TOE yield any testable predictions? Good question. Or does it at least lead to any retrodictions, based on less hypothesis (simpler)? Bruno > > Brent > > On 5/1/2019 12:28 AM, cloudver...@gmail

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

The general response here is that there has never existed a program that has executed outside a computer. And computers are made of matter. Now one can generalize "computer": There were things like the abacus and slide rule, that executed "programs". Or one executes programs in the head (so

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated with the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the fact that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a brain in software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing occur

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:41 PM Samiya Illias wrote: > *Considering how vast we have come to realise the Universe to be, do you > honestly think our praise or our insults affect God in any way?* > No I don't think so but the religious do. When I was a grade school kid I had a Catholic catechism

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:18:33 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 1 May 2019, at 19:58, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 11:30:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 1 May 2019, at 10:56, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> By "heat" I just mean

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

There is some back story to why we are here and need to be forgiven. We have been given some insights to our predicament here: 1. Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath p

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

Pleasure for the all loving god to have creatures to torture ? But the problem of evil is not that simple. Le ven. 3 mai 2019 à 12:46, smitra a écrit : > What's the point of creating criminals and then to torture those > criminals for eternity in hell? > > On 03-05-2019 04:41, Samiya Illias wro

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

What's the point of creating criminals and then to torture those criminals for eternity in hell? On 03-05-2019 04:41, Samiya Illias wrote: Considering how vast we have come to realise the Universe to be, do you honestly think our praise or our insults affect God in any way? Do you even realise