On 5/3/2019 11:44 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:I think that is right. But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. a computation written out on paper (or Bruno's movie graph) it becomes apparent that consciousness must ultimately refer to other things.Right, the movie graph argument shows that consciousness doesn't supervene on physical computation. Nevertheless, the character of my consciousness still corresponds with the kind of cybernetic system implemented by e.g. my brain and body, as instantiated by the infinity of programs going through my state.
What makes it "your state"? It's just a bunch of programs. Why those programs and not others?
Much is made of "self-awareness" but this is usually just having
an internal model of one's body, or social standing or some other
model of the self. It is not consciousness of consciousness...that
is only a temporal reflection: "I was conscious just now."
I see it a little differently. The self-model/ego is a higher-order
construct that organizes the system in a holistic way.
? That sounds like a kind of dualism. You're postulating something that creates a "higher-order construct". If you're following Bruno's idea things have to just come out of the UD threads. There's nothing to create anything more.
We take this for granted - it's the water we swim in - but our minds are radically re-organized as children by the taught narrative that we have an identity
You don't have teach a kid he has an identity. He knows who's hungry. He has a view point.
Brent
and this unitary identity is the /cause/ of our behavior (when the evidence shows that we merely rationalize our behavior in terms of that narrative). Point being, the way the cybernetic system is organized takes a quantum leap in complexity as a result - and this is responsible for the subjective awareness of ourselves as people.In the dream state (except for lucid dreaming), our self-model is not energized - ongoing experience in dreams is not organized in terms of that narrative of being someone. When lucid dreaming begins, it is because we can say "I am dreaming", which is to say that the self-model becomes active. In that moment, the character of that dream consciousness changes dramatically.In general terms we could say consciousness is awareness of the evironment, where that includes one's body. Damasio identifies emotions as awareness of the bodies state. The point is that the stuff of which we are aware and which we find agreement with other people's awareness is what we infer to be the physical world. It might be possible to be conscious in some sense without a physical world, but it would be qualitatively different.Yes. However, it's not clear what it would mean for a conscious agent to experience something that wasn't a "physical" world, even if the environment was completely virtual. The Matrix illustrates that nicely.Terren Brent On 5/3/2019 6:27 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated with the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the fact that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a brain in software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing occur, it would be conscious in the same kind of way. I find this idea compelling because it makes the link between brains and consciousness without requiring matter, and provides a framework for understanding consciousnesses of other kinds of machines. All that's required is to assume there is something it is like for computation to occur. Terren On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:26 AM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, [email protected] wrote:Apparently *matter* is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple of particles.Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus something else, that everyone calls "mind", but you're going to call it "matter" and add it to everyone else's list of matter so you can still call yourself a materialist. Brent But everything reducing to the physics of particles is thought of as *physicalism* (not materialism): *Physicalism and materialism* Reductive physicalism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductive_physicalism>...is normally assumed to be incompatible with panpsychism. Materialism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism>, if held to be distinct from physicalism, is compatible with panpsychism insofar as mental propertiesWhat mental properties? intention? reflection? remembering? That's what I mean by saying attributing "experience" to matter is an unprincipled half-measure. Brent Brains are matter, just as livers, legs, trees, tables, rocks, comets, planets, stars, cockroaches, galaxies, bacteria .. are matter. Brains produce intentions, reflections, remembrances, ... . So (at least some) matter of the cosmos has psychical (mental) properties. The body+mind idea, the idea that mind is something separate from body, is perhaps the worst idea ever invented. @philipthrift-- You received this message because you are subscribed to theGoogle Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to theGoogle Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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