RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
First, I never said I was a master logician. This is simply another in a long line of dozens of mischaracterizations of my posts that proves the fact that you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, choose to embelish what you read or assume things about what you read. What I said was that I stick to the facts and logic, not that I am a master logician Second, philosophers have been arguing over existence for a long, long time now. And the fact that I exist is pretty evident and obvious to me at least. Finally, I really have no interest in proving the obvious to you or anyone else. It is obvious that computers and technology have become critically important components of everyone's daily lives. It is obvious that the entire recorded history of occupations and public welfare laws in the United States points to the fact that as an occupation becomes increasingly important to the public welfare that licensing and other laws are passed to regulate it's behavior. It is obvious that without self-regulation that these laws will likely be passed by state governments and could be quite restricting and quite harsh. It is obvious that because of the computer industry's rather libertarian bent that we, as independent computer consultants and professionals, have no single voice with which to speak in order to combat laws and regulations that others would pass to regulate us. It is obvious that with self-regulation comes less of a need for government to pass laws and regulations hence keeping government off our backs. Yes Ed, it is obvious that I sit back in my chair with a nice smug smirk plastered right across my face because I know that if you don't like MY ethics, boy are you going to hate the ethics imposed upon you by government. It makes me laugh so hard that because you and others like you will not even admit to a simple, obvious, conflict of interest that you have doomed EVERYONE in IT to ever increasing government regulation. Why do I laugh? Shouldn't I care because I am in IT as well? I laugh because I don't care. I'll find something else to do. I am no crusader and Ed, frankly, people like you are not worth crusading for. In fact, you; in particular Ed, DESERVE to be regulated by the goverment. No, I cannot prove, or simply choose not to do all the work to prove, the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that we live on a planet that orbits a sun. I also cannot prove that either we regulate ourselves or someone else will do it for us. But, just because I cannot prove it does not mean that it is not true or a fact of life. I cannot prove the obvious. Then, contrary to your prior assertions, you are hardly a master logician. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. As I recall from my schooling in mathematics, even the obvious must be proved. Just because something is obvious to you doesn't mean that it is a truth. Mr. Deckler, I assert that much of what is obvious truth to your mind is not truth in the rest of the world's reality. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 6:19 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, you are correct Ed. I cannot prove the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that you live on the planet that orbits a sun. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
No soup for yougo away! _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:44 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 First, I never said I was a master logician. This is simply another in a long line of dozens of mischaracterizations of my posts that proves the fact that you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, choose to embelish what you read or assume things about what you read. What I said was that I stick to the facts and logic, not that I am a master logician Second, philosophers have been arguing over existence for a long, long time now. And the fact that I exist is pretty evident and obvious to me at least. Finally, I really have no interest in proving the obvious to you or anyone else. It is obvious that computers and technology have become critically important components of everyone's daily lives. It is obvious that the entire recorded history of occupations and public welfare laws in the United States points to the fact that as an occupation becomes increasingly important to the public welfare that licensing and other laws are passed to regulate it's behavior. It is obvious that without self-regulation that these laws will likely be passed by state governments and could be quite restricting and quite harsh. It is obvious that because of the computer industry's rather libertarian bent that we, as independent computer consultants and professionals, have no single voice with which to speak in order to combat laws and regulations that others would pass to regulate us. It is obvious that with self-regulation comes less of a need for government to pass laws and regulations hence keeping government off our backs. Yes Ed, it is obvious that I sit back in my chair with a nice smug smirk plastered right across my face because I know that if you don't like MY ethics, boy are you going to hate the ethics imposed upon you by government. It makes me laugh so hard that because you and others like you will not even admit to a simple, obvious, conflict of interest that you have doomed EVERYONE in IT to ever increasing government regulation. Why do I laugh? Shouldn't I care because I am in IT as well? I laugh because I don't care. I'll find something else to do. I am no crusader and Ed, frankly, people like you are not worth crusading for. In fact, you; in particular Ed, DESERVE to be regulated by the goverment. No, I cannot prove, or simply choose not to do all the work to prove, the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that we live on a planet that orbits a sun. I also cannot prove that either we regulate ourselves or someone else will do it for us. But, just because I cannot prove it does not mean that it is not true or a fact of life. I cannot prove the obvious. Then, contrary to your prior assertions, you are hardly a master logician. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. As I recall from my schooling in mathematics, even the obvious must be proved. Just because something is obvious to you doesn't mean that it is a truth. Mr. Deckler, I assert that much of what is obvious truth to your mind is not truth in the rest of the world's reality. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 6:19 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, you are correct Ed. I cannot prove the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that you live on the planet that orbits a sun. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I cannot prove that an apple is red - well they're not if it's a granny smith nor that the sky is blue - quite often isn't in Blighty! Happy Holidays - Peace and Goodwill to all men eh! ;-) This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. It should not be deemed to constitute a binding contract between TKC Group and the recipient(s) unless a purchase order number is quoted. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of TKC Group Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient(s), please do not copy or disclose its contents. Please return it to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] then delete the email. intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
In one breath, you claim that you're all about facts and logic. But in the next breath, you admit that you can't prove the obvious. The two statements, at least to me, are incompatible. What I draw from those two statements is that you have opinions you consider to be fact, and are incapable of proving them. The easiest proof, in your mind, is to call them obvious and walk away, which, of course, proves nothing. More comments inline. In summary, Greg, I think you ought to seek professional help. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 7:44 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 First, I never said I was a master logician. This is simply another in a long line of dozens of mischaracterizations of my posts that proves the fact that you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, choose to embelish what you read or assume things about what you read. What I said was that I stick to the facts and logic, not that I am a master logician See above. Second, philosophers have been arguing over existence for a long, long time now. And the fact that I exist is pretty evident and obvious to me at least. Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest. Perhaps you might care to explain its relevance to this discussion. Finally, I really have no interest in proving the obvious to you or anyone else. Then you have no grounds assert that what you say is grounded in facts and logic. So I am free to argue that everything you say is grounded in hot air. It is obvious To whom? that computers and technology have become critically important components of everyone's daily lives. I know at least one person who has no computer and derives very little benefit from them. So your point is wrong. It is obvious To whom? that the entire recorded history of occupations and public welfare laws in the United States points to the fact that as an occupation becomes increasingly important to the public welfare that licensing and other laws are passed to regulate it's behavior. That would be its. Again, obvious to whom? It is obvious To whom? that without self-regulation that these laws will likely be passed by state governments and could be quite restricting and quite harsh. This is conjecture, not facts or even logic. It is obvious that because of the computer industry's rather libertarian bent Deckler's rule #53 for arguing: When you can't prove something, give it a label that has all sorts of connotations. Yeah, Microsoft is real libertarian. This supposition shows just how little about computers and the computer industry you really understand. that we, as independent computer consultants and professionals, have no single voice with which to speak in order to combat laws and regulations that others would pass to regulate us. Personally, being that I am a member, the Computer Society of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers speaks for me. I do not interpret its standards of ethics to read that accepting a small gratuity from a partner company to be a massive conflict of interest. Sorry to bring this argument back on topic, but I felt that you're wandering off in some other direction. It is obvious Again, obvious to whom? that with self-regulation comes less of a need for government to pass laws and regulations hence keeping government off our backs. So, accepting a small gratuity from a partner vendor will cause the government to over-regulate the computer industry? Wow! I never realized the implications. I shall resign my MVP status at once to save the industry! Yes Ed, it is obvious To whom? that I sit back in my chair with a nice smug smirk plastered right across my face You always have that smug smirk. because I know that if you don't like MY ethics, This implies that all of this is obvious to you. Is that what you mean? It isn't obvious to me. Is it obvious to anyone else who might still be reading this thread at this point? boy are you going to hate the ethics imposed upon you by government. Oh my god! Now I'm resigning my MVP status for the good of the country! Maybe I can get some sort of medal for this. It makes me laugh so hard that because you and others like you will not even admit to a simple, obvious, conflict of interest that you have doomed EVERYONE in IT to ever increasing government regulation. You really believe this? Why do I laugh? Because you're insane? Shouldn't I care because I am in IT as well? I laugh because I don't care. I'll find something else to do. I am no crusader and Ed, frankly, people like you are not worth crusading for. In fact, you; in particular Ed, DESERVE to be regulated by the goverment. In other words, we're all damned to hell, but you'll go to heaven. Greg
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Ed, you apparently have never had children that continually ask why. Why do you exist? Because it is obvious that you exist, you would not be standing here talking to me if you did not exist. Why? Well, because you first have to exist before you can talk. Why? Because otherwise you wouldn't have vocal cords. But why? And no Ed, I am not calling you a child, I am saying that you are acting like a child. Anyone can argue with anything as long as they deny the obvious. I can argue over my own existence and nobody will be able to prove that I exist as long as I want to deny the obvious fact that I exist. This is what you are doing and while you can deny the obvious, it does not mean that the obvious is not true, that you and I both exist and that the IT industry either regulates itself or will be regulated by government. Guess what? I know people that have never used an Auctioneer, but guess what? The Ohio Revised Code has explicit laws and regulations regarding the Auctioneer occupation. I know certain hippies that have never gotten a haircut. Guess what? The Ohio Revised Code has extensive laws and regulations regarding the Barber occupation. There are also laws and regulations for... Architects, Attorneys, Cosmetologists, Dentists, Embalmers, Telephone Solicitors, Innkeepers, Nurses, Pawnbrokers, Precious Metal Dealers, Chiropractors, Real Estate Brokers, Plumbers, Sanitarians, Secondhand Dealers; Junk Yards, Motor Vehicle Salvage, Hearing Aid Dealers, Private Investigators, Speech-Language Pathologists ...just to name a few In one breath, you claim that you're all about facts and logic. But in the next breath, you admit that you can't prove the obvious. The two statements, at least to me, are incompatible. What I draw from those two statements is that you have opinions you consider to be fact, and are incapable of proving them. The easiest proof, in your mind, is to call them obvious and walk away, which, of course, proves nothing. More comments inline. In summary, Greg, I think you ought to seek professional help. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 7:44 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 First, I never said I was a master logician. This is simply another in a long line of dozens of mischaracterizations of my posts that proves the fact that you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, choose to embelish what you read or assume things about what you read. What I said was that I stick to the facts and logic, not that I am a master logician See above. Second, philosophers have been arguing over existence for a long, long time now. And the fact that I exist is pretty evident and obvious to me at least. Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest. Perhaps you might care to explain its relevance to this discussion. Finally, I really have no interest in proving the obvious to you or anyone else. Then you have no grounds assert that what you say is grounded in facts and logic. So I am free to argue that everything you say is grounded in hot air. It is obvious To whom? that computers and technology have become critically important components of everyone's daily lives. I know at least one person who has no computer and derives very little benefit from them. So your point is wrong. It is obvious To whom? that the entire recorded history of occupations and public welfare laws in the United States points to the fact that as an occupation becomes increasingly important to the public welfare that licensing and other laws are passed to regulate it's behavior. That would be its. Again, obvious to whom? It is obvious To whom? that without self-regulation that these laws will likely be passed by state governments and could be quite restricting and quite harsh. This is conjecture, not facts or even logic. It is obvious that because of the computer industry's rather libertarian bent Deckler's rule #53 for arguing: When you can't prove something, give it a label that has all sorts of connotations. Yeah, Microsoft is real libertarian. This supposition shows just how little about computers and the computer industry you really understand. that we, as independent computer consultants and professionals, have no single voice with which to speak in order to combat laws and regulations that others would pass to regulate us. Personally, being that I am a member, the Computer Society of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers speaks for me. I do not interpret its standards of ethics to read that accepting a small gratuity from a partner company to be a massive conflict of interest. Sorry to bring this argument back on topic
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Comments inline. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:37 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Ed, you apparently have never had children that continually ask why. Oh, but I do. And I answer them to the best of my ability. Perhaps you should do the same. Why do you exist? Because it is obvious that you exist, you would not be standing here talking to me if you did not exist. We are not arguing my existence. We are arguing the whether accepting a small gift of appreciation and a title from a partner company for providing peer support is unethical. Why? Well, because you first have to exist before you can talk. Why? Because otherwise you wouldn't have vocal cords. But why? Let's get back to the topic instead of your feeble attempts to distract me. And no Ed, I am not calling you a child, I am saying that you are acting like a child. Now, that's the pot calling the kettle black. Anyone can argue with anything as long as they deny the obvious. You still haven't answered to whom these things are obvious. Just because something is obvious to you in your little fantasy world doesn't mean that they're obvious to me. I can argue over my own existence and nobody will be able to prove that I exist as long as I want to deny the obvious fact that I exist. I am not denying anyone's existence. I am denying that your value judgments are obvious. They are only obvious to you. This is what you are doing and while you can deny the obvious, To whom? it does not mean that the obvious is not true, You are the one stating your opinion as fact and as being obvious, so you have the burden of proof to show that your opinions are true and obvious. that you and I both exist I know you exist because I have seen and met you (unless Greg Deckler died between then and now and you is an impostor). I suspect that it is not necessarily obvious to many on this list that you exist. Perhaps I am the one who is mad and I invented you and I write this entire argument just for the list's entertainment (or whatever). So, you see, even the fact that you and I exist isn't necessarily obvious to all. But that isn't the subject here. The subject is whether accepting a small gratuity and title from a partner company for providing peer support is unethical. And on that point, you have yet to make a satisfactory case, in my opinion. and that the IT industry either regulates itself or will be regulated by government. Nice conjecture. Guess what? I know people that have never used an Auctioneer, but guess what? The Ohio Revised Code has explicit laws and regulations regarding the Auctioneer occupation. Is that because they became MVPs? I know certain hippies that have never gotten a haircut. Guess what? The Ohio Revised Code has extensive laws and regulations regarding the Barber occupation. Are there extensive laws and regulations regarding the hippie occupation? Your use of that term tells a lot, by the way. There are also laws and regulations for... Architects, Attorneys, Cosmetologists, Dentists, Embalmers, Telephone Solicitors, Innkeepers, Nurses, Pawnbrokers, Precious Metal Dealers, Chiropractors, Real Estate Brokers, Plumbers, Sanitarians, Secondhand Dealers; Junk Yards, Motor Vehicle Salvage, Hearing Aid Dealers, Private Investigators, Speech-Language Pathologists How many of those because regulated because they accepted MVP status? In any of your long-winded fatuous posts will you ever address exactly how this is unethical? ...just to name a few That reminds me of the and much more that always ends a list in television commercials. Okay, how many more are there? One, two? In one breath, you claim that you're all about facts and logic. But in the next breath, you admit that you can't prove the obvious. The two statements, at least to me, are incompatible. What I draw from those two statements is that you have opinions you consider to be fact, and are incapable of proving them. The easiest proof, in your mind, is to call them obvious and walk away, which, of course, proves nothing. More comments inline. In summary, Greg, I think you ought to seek professional help. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 7:44 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 First, I never said I was a master logician. This is simply another in a long line of dozens of mischaracterizations of my posts that proves the fact that you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, choose to embelish
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I cannot prove that an apple is red Of course not..Granny Smith's are GREEN. _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I cannot prove the obvious. Then, contrary to your prior assertions, you are hardly a master logician. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. As I recall from my schooling in mathematics, even the obvious must be proved. Just because something is obvious to you doesn't mean that it is a truth. Mr. Deckler, I assert that much of what is obvious truth to your mind is not truth in the rest of the world's reality. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 6:19 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, you are correct Ed. I cannot prove the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that you live on the planet that orbits a sun. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
If we only had a set of bike racks this would be 7th grade all over again Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Christopher Hummert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:55 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Sweet. Just when the Greg/Ed spamfest was dying down, we get a revival. Excellent middle schoolFight Fight/middle school -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 6:19 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, you are correct Ed. I cannot prove the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that you live on the planet that orbits a sun. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
The problem here is that Greg's opinion is that accepting gifts presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. The key point being the word perceived. The statement covers all eventualities. If the CoI is not real, it remains possible for it to be perceived - even by only one individual - therefore proving the statement correct, even when technically (not real) it is incorrect. Therefore we have a circular argument on which it seems people will not budge. I don't believe I have mis-characterised or mis-read any of the post and am addressing the basic premise. Now can we move on? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2003 00:52 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] Again, it does not matter if MVP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, results in world peace and gives every starving kid a home. None of that changes that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Again, it matters not one bit if MVP's act unethically or not, it is a conflict of interest plain and simple. I would be willing to bet that most if not all of the MVP's do NOT act unethically because of the title. Guess what? Doesn't matter. Still an violation of basic conflict of interest rules. So, I think its fair to say that you've not come even remotely close to proving to anyone where this alleged conflict of interest is, and how it negatively impacts our objectivity. I didn't say that it negatively impacts your objectivity, I said it has the *potential* to impact your objectivity. Why? Because it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? You obviously fail to understand what I am talking about. Roger
WAS RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 NOW my bad - sorry
Opps sorry my bad - only just read this one. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2003 01:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 The next person who wants to add something to this thread, please send your message directly to those who have demonstrated they care. It might be a little hard work the first time, but then all you have to do is hit reply to all. This list is not for you personal arguments. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:54 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Then tell people to quit bringing it up. Then quit beating this dead horse -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. It should not be deemed to constitute a binding contract between TKC Group and the recipient(s) unless a purchase order number is quoted. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of TKC Group Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient(s), please do not copy or disclose its contents. Please return it to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] then delete the email. intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Dude, STFU --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] Again, it does not matter if MVP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, results in world peace and gives every starving kid a home. None of that changes that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Again, it matters not one bit if MVP's act unethically or not, it is a conflict of interest plain and simple. I would be willing to bet that most if not all of the MVP's do NOT act unethically because of the title. Guess what? Doesn't matter. Still an violation of basic conflict of interest rules. So, I think its fair to say that you've not come even remotely close to proving to anyone where this alleged conflict of interest is, and how it negatively impacts our objectivity. I didn't say that it negatively impacts your objectivity, I said it has the *potential* to impact your objectivity. Why? Because it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? You obviously fail to understand what I am talking about. Roger -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. [1] 8 OpenBSD and 4 Linux, with 2 more Linux boxes due early next year _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Well said...this has gone on way too long and is making everybody involved look bad. Happy Holidays all, - Matt -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:03 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 The next person who wants to add something to this thread, please send your message directly to those who have demonstrated they care. It might be a little hard work the first time, but then all you have to do is hit reply to all. This list is not for you personal arguments. _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Greg, Ever go to a trade show and get something from a vendor table? Maybe fill out one of those mailers to get a free shirt, or perhaps a free book from Cisco. My office is full of them, I get every shirt I can lay my hands on as my wife likes to use them to sleep in or when the children are playing in paint. I have a really cool shirt that looks like a bear bottle I got at Tech-Ed this year, I couldn't even tell you who the vendor is on it as I have never looked, but that shirt is setting on the top of my book shelf here in the office. Shoot I even have free gifts from vendors that I can promise you I would never use or recommend to anyone, but they are cool gifts, and hey they are free. Your argument is flawed in saying that anyone who has X (coffee cup, T-Shirt, ball, backpack, mints in tin, pen's, calendar, notepad, hat, poster,.. or any 1 of a million free gifts) is, has, might, or could one day act unethically because it might cause them to favor that vendor over another. By your example any one in the food service business who samples the free food at the grocery store is suffering from a real or perceived conflict of interest. Maybe they were just having a snack craving! That's the problem with your never ending mantra about gifts and your issue about weather or not this is a conflict of interest. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] Again, it does not matter if MVP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, results in world peace and gives every starving kid a home. None of that changes that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Again, it matters not one bit if MVP's act unethically or not, it is a conflict of interest plain and simple. I would be willing to bet that most if not all of the MVP's do NOT act unethically because of the title. Guess what? Doesn't matter. Still an violation
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
For crying out loud, drop it already! Nobody cares! Sheesh. Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waters, Jeff Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:45 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Greg, Ever go to a trade show and get something from a vendor table? Maybe fill out one of those mailers to get a free shirt, or perhaps a free book from Cisco. My office is full of them, I get every shirt I can lay my hands on as my wife likes to use them to sleep in or when the children are playing in paint. I have a really cool shirt that looks like a bear bottle I got at Tech-Ed this year, I couldn't even tell you who the vendor is on it as I have never looked, but that shirt is setting on the top of my book shelf here in the office. Shoot I even have free gifts from vendors that I can promise you I would never use or recommend to anyone, but they are cool gifts, and hey they are free. Your argument is flawed in saying that anyone who has X (coffee cup, T-Shirt, ball, backpack, mints in tin, pen's, calendar, notepad, hat, poster,.. or any 1 of a million free gifts) is, has, might, or could one day act unethically because it might cause them to favor that vendor over another. By your example any one in the food service business who samples the free food at the grocery store is suffering from a real or perceived conflict of interest. Maybe they were just having a snack craving! That's the problem with your never ending mantra about gifts and your issue about weather or not this is a conflict of interest. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] Again, it does not matter if MVP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, results in world peace and gives every starving kid a home. None of that changes that it is a real
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Shove it up your terd cutter!!! Yeeah!!! _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jason Clishe Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:49 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 For crying out loud, drop it already! Nobody cares! Sheesh. Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waters, Jeff Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:45 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Greg, Ever go to a trade show and get something from a vendor table? Maybe fill out one of those mailers to get a free shirt, or perhaps a free book from Cisco. My office is full of them, I get every shirt I can lay my hands on as my wife likes to use them to sleep in or when the children are playing in paint. I have a really cool shirt that looks like a bear bottle I got at Tech-Ed this year, I couldn't even tell you who the vendor is on it as I have never looked, but that shirt is setting on the top of my book shelf here in the office. Shoot I even have free gifts from vendors that I can promise you I would never use or recommend to anyone, but they are cool gifts, and hey they are free. Your argument is flawed in saying that anyone who has X (coffee cup, T-Shirt, ball, backpack, mints in tin, pen's, calendar, notepad, hat, poster,.. or any 1 of a million free gifts) is, has, might, or could one day act unethically because it might cause them to favor that vendor over another. By your example any one in the food service business who samples the free food at the grocery store is suffering from a real or perceived conflict of interest. Maybe they were just having a snack craving! That's the problem with your never ending mantra about gifts and your issue about weather or not this is a conflict of interest. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone who starves children, but no one has refuted this most basic argument. I have never wavered from this argument, this has been the argument since the beginning that this all started. This is why companies tell their employees that they must send back gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS. Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy argument you want to throw at it, this is basic ethics people. If you want to change my mind, then prove the above argument false. Simple as that. Now, I don't bring this stuff up. All it causes is this kind of craziness. Other people bring this stuff up. Exactly why is a mystery to me. Look at the subject of this message thread for Christ's sake. Are you kidding me? And it is not like I even threw in one of my whimsical Microsoft barbs. If someone is going to bring this stuff up, I am always, ALWAYS going to stick to this perspective and explain things the way I see them. Nobody has proven this logic wrong in 8 years. But, hey, I'm willing to think that someone might. There may be a flaw in there somewhere, that I do not see. And all this nonsense about tone and stating things as my opinion is all crap, a waste of bytes and besides the point. People read what they want to read in my posts, plain and simple. What is straight talk to one person is rude to another
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone who starves children, but no one has refuted this most basic argument. I have never wavered from this argument, this has been the argument since the beginning that this all started. This is why companies tell their employees that they must send back gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS. Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy argument you want to throw
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Who says? Feel free to ask for your money back, otherwise delete anything you don't like or unsub. If you really want this thread to die, stop responding to it. Besides, shouldn't you be preparing for the Rose Bowl? -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Truly. I would much rather read off-topic posts, which this list has a history and culture of tolerating, than have to read the Quit posting off-topic messages messages, which are off-topic themselves! Nathan, why not just Sort by Conversation topic, and then you can ignore it ? Really, probably the only thing that you are doing is causing people to killfile your STOP posts. It's much better to use your own sorting and killfiling abilities, than to make other people stop posting. There, that was a post about Outlook, which isn't Exchange either, but is generally considered on topic for this list. Funny how life's like that sometime, isn't it? Jim -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Who says? Feel free to ask for your money back, otherwise delete anything you don't like or unsub. If you really want this thread to die, stop responding to it. Besides, shouldn't you be preparing for the Rose Bowl? -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
This forum should be 99% Exchange, when it is more like 30% it becomes pointless for the majority of subscribers. I am a professional who works with Exchange; I use this forum for work. It is the responsibility of those who wish to use the forum for personal purposes to take it off list. It is not like this thread is a few day's old. I've made my point and I am not adding anything more to the list. If you have something to say to challenge my point of view, I would be happy to e-mail you directly. -Original Message- From: Jim Helfer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Truly. I would much rather read off-topic posts, which this list has a history and culture of tolerating, than have to read the Quit posting off-topic messages messages, which are off-topic themselves! Nathan, why not just Sort by Conversation topic, and then you can ignore it ? Really, probably the only thing that you are doing is causing people to killfile your STOP posts. It's much better to use your own sorting and killfiling abilities, than to make other people stop posting. There, that was a post about Outlook, which isn't Exchange either, but is generally considered on topic for this list. Funny how life's like that sometime, isn't it? Jim -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Who says? Feel free to ask for your money back, otherwise delete anything you don't like or unsub. If you really want this thread to die, stop responding to it. Besides, shouldn't you be preparing for the Rose Bowl? -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception
RE: WAS RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 NOW my bad - sorry
You are not empowered to decide what this list is for. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Hackney Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 2:43 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: WAS RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 NOW my bad - sorry Opps sorry my bad - only just read this one. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2003 01:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 The next person who wants to add something to this thread, please send your message directly to those who have demonstrated they care. It might be a little hard work the first time, but then all you have to do is hit reply to all. This list is not for you personal arguments. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:54 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Then tell people to quit bringing it up. Then quit beating this dead horse -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. It should not be deemed to constitute a binding contract between TKC Group and the recipient(s) unless a purchase order number is quoted. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of TKC Group Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient(s), please do not copy or disclose its contents. Please return it to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] then delete the email. intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
When I was a customer (I worked for two), we had conflict of interest rules, although somewhat looser than those in some branches of government. Neither considered my being an MVP to be a conflict of interest. However, I respect such rules and agree that there sometimes are a need for them. Nonetheless, this is not an argument about anybody's particular situation with ethics. Mr. Deckler has repeatedly indicted EVERYONE who is an MVP, regardless of his or her personal situation. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Fretz Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:58 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Just to throw some salt in the wounds, the Federal Government has a law that states that any federal employee or govenrment contractor cannot accept any gift from a vendor with a value greater than $80. Anything over that is considered improper and a conflict of interest. If you accept the gift and you are a government contractor, you risk getting busted fined by the GAO as well risk losing your contract. Greg, last time I checked, pens and paper were less that $80.00. Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Ely, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:35 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up and to which you keep responding. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. However misguided it may be. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk... That's all you do, too. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:02 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
And yes, I expressed concern EIGHT YEARS AGO and since then have never brought it up. Yet another lie. You brought it up in this forum. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:06 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I never asked you to modify your behavior. Do what you want. It is a GOOD thing for me that people do not have my particular views on ethics. I have won clients and I keep clients, in part, based on my ethics. My clients know that come heck or high water, I am going to be fanactically loyal to my clients and no one else, ever. And yes, I expressed concern EIGHT YEARS AGO and since then have never brought it up. It keeps being brought up by other people. Let it go. You are the only person who ever expressed any perceived conflict of interest. I am not going to modify my behavior to conform to your standards. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You brought it up: Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism... Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:11 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Ed, honestly, WTF does this have to do with ANYTHING? My list of credentials is longer than yours?? I mean, sure, what the heck. I will state this in the hopes that we can all move past this. Everyone, everyone, listen up, here it is: Ed Crowley has a longer list of credentials than I do. In fact, my list of credentials is small, puny and weak and I almost never show it to anyone. Jeez God man. Not knowing anything about your educational background, I will still readily and happily stack my educational and professional credentials against yours any day. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
If you're doing that, why do we need to stop? Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Nold Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I adding this subject line to my x-wall.. PLEASE STOP! -Original Message- From: Eric Fretz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:09 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 DAMN YOU for filling up my Deleted Items bin! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:11 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Ed, honestly, WTF does this have to do with ANYTHING? My list of credentials is longer than yours?? I mean, sure, what the heck. I will state this in the hopes that we can all move past this. Everyone, everyone, listen up, here it is: Ed Crowley has a longer list of credentials than I do. In fact, my list of credentials is small, puny and weak and I almost never show it to anyone. Jeez God man. Not knowing anything about your educational background, I will still readily and happily stack my educational and professional credentials against yours any day. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I can see how you'd come to that conclusion in the Bizarro Deckler Universe (BDU). Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ely, Don Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:34 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending products H... I get it now!!! All of the MVP's RECOMMEND MS products on the various newsgroups, they don't actually SUPPORT the products... See Ed, you've been recommending that everyone use an MS Solution this whole time, you haven't been offering support of said products... That's why you and all the MVP's are wrong about this Code of Ethics... -Original Message- From: Erik Sojka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:35 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 http://www.infonition.com/marathon.shtml Interesting. -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang = english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
According to your definition, everyone I've ever met, including the true professionals you've mentioned in earlier posts, has a conflict of interest, except the lowest of the low on the totem pole. Therefore, your definition is so trivial as to be practically meaningless. Thanks for admitting that your point is completely irrelevant! I'm glad that you've finally confirmed what I already know. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:45 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You still haven't demonstrated that the Conflict of Interest exists. =20 When you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, that is a conflict of interest. Where's the conflict in me (an MS-leaning IT manager) hiring a MS-knowledgeable person to implement MS-based technology in my MS-based enterprise? =20 The MVP I'm hiring has not swayed me towards the decision to *use* MS software. I've already made that call. If I decide to rip out all of = my MS software and deploy chimpanzees with abacuses to run my business, I will = hire staff/conslutants with comparable experience. Where's the frigging = conflict of interest? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Fortuitous, that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
This forum should be 99% Exchange, when it is more like 30% it becomes pointless for the majority of subscribers. I am a professional who works with Exchange; I use this forum for work. It is the responsibility of those who wish to use the forum for personal purposes to take it off list. It is not like this thread is a few day's old. I think that this forum should be 87.5 % Exchange, except on Weekends and U.S. National holidays, when it should be 33-1/3%. And threads should be closed when they reach a max of 28 days, except on leap year (when it's 29 days). You cannot tell me why my rules are arbitrary and yours aren't, nor can you tell me why you get to make that decision. I've made my point and I am not adding anything more to the list. If you have something to say to challenge my point of view, I would be happy to e-mail you directly. Don't you see the Catch-22 you have entered into? You want to post to protest Off-topic posting, but in doing so, you engage in the very behavior that you are railing against ! What you are looking for is a _moderated_ forum or mailing list. With a moderate who has congruent views on proper postings as you do, of course. Jim H -Original Message- From: Jim Helfer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Truly. I would much rather read off-topic posts, which this list has a history and culture of tolerating, than have to read the Quit posting off-topic messages messages, which are off-topic themselves! Nathan, why not just Sort by Conversation topic, and then you can ignore it ? Really, probably the only thing that you are doing is causing people to killfile your STOP posts. It's much better to use your own sorting and killfiling abilities, than to make other people stop posting. There, that was a post about Outlook, which isn't Exchange either, but is generally considered on topic for this list. Funny how life's like that sometime, isn't it? Jim -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Who says? Feel free to ask for your money back, otherwise delete anything you don't like or unsub. If you really want this thread to die, stop responding to it. Besides, shouldn't you be preparing for the Rose Bowl? -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:52 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] Again, it does not matter if MVP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, results in world peace and gives every starving kid a home. None of that changes that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Again, it matters not one bit if MVP's act unethically or not, it is a conflict of interest plain and simple. I would be willing to bet that most if not all of the MVP's do NOT act unethically because of the title. Guess what? Doesn't matter. Still an violation of basic conflict of interest rules. So, I think its fair to say that you've not come even remotely close to proving to anyone where this alleged conflict of interest is, and how it negatively impacts our objectivity. I didn't say that it negatively impacts your objectivity, I said it has the *potential* to impact your objectivity. Why? Because it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? You obviously fail to understand what I am talking about. Roger -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. [1] 8 OpenBSD and 4 Linux, with 2 more Linux boxes due early next year
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You are not the list owner. You are not authorized to dictate what this list is for. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boyd, Nathan Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 5:03 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 The next person who wants to add something to this thread, please send your message directly to those who have demonstrated they care. It might be a little hard work the first time, but then all you have to do is hit reply to all. This list is not for you personal arguments. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:54 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Then tell people to quit bringing it up. Then quit beating this dead horse -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Composing that was a far greater waste of time than a rule deleting all messages with this subject. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boyd, Nathan Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:14 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
This is as much on-topic as many in this forum. Please use the Delete key or create a rule. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boyd, Nathan Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:20 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You are free to leave at any time. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boyd, Nathan Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:41 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This forum should be 99% Exchange, when it is more like 30% it becomes pointless for the majority of subscribers. I am a professional who works with Exchange; I use this forum for work. It is the responsibility of those who wish to use the forum for personal purposes to take it off list. It is not like this thread is a few day's old. I've made my point and I am not adding anything more to the list. If you have something to say to challenge my point of view, I would be happy to e-mail you directly. -Original Message- From: Jim Helfer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Truly. I would much rather read off-topic posts, which this list has a history and culture of tolerating, than have to read the Quit posting off-topic messages messages, which are off-topic themselves! Nathan, why not just Sort by Conversation topic, and then you can ignore it ? Really, probably the only thing that you are doing is causing people to killfile your STOP posts. It's much better to use your own sorting and killfiling abilities, than to make other people stop posting. There, that was a post about Outlook, which isn't Exchange either, but is generally considered on topic for this list. Funny how life's like that sometime, isn't it? Jim -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Who says? Feel free to ask for your money back, otherwise delete anything you don't like or unsub. If you really want this thread to die, stop responding to it. Besides, shouldn't you be preparing for the Rose Bowl? -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -Original Message- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -Original Message- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company
RE: [Migrating from GroupWise 6.5] NOW: Complete waste of time!
But who's keeping score? Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Fretz Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:05 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: WAS: [Migrating from GroupWise 6.5] NOW: Complete waste of time! Just in-case some of you just recently tuned in, the current score is: Ed: 46,298 Deckler:0 Keep up the good work guys! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [MVP] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 3:03 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Fortuitous, that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Migrating from GroupWise 6.5] NOW: Complete waste of time!
Well, it's obviously not Deckler... -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [MVP] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 4:36 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: [Migrating from GroupWise 6.5] NOW: Complete waste of time! But who's keeping score? Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Fretz Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:05 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: WAS: [Migrating from GroupWise 6.5] NOW: Complete waste of time! Just in-case some of you just recently tuned in, the current score is: Ed: 46,298 Deckler:0 Keep up the good work guys! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [MVP] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 3:03 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Fortuitous, that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
If you can't see the difference, you are never going to see the difference. Greg, Ever go to a trade show and get something from a vendor table? Maybe fill out one of those mailers to get a free shirt, or perhaps a free book from Cisco. My office is full of them, I get every shirt I can lay my hands on as my wife likes to use them to sleep in or when the children are playing in paint. I have a really cool shirt that looks like a bear bottle I got at Tech-Ed this year, I couldn't even tell you who the vendor is on it as I have never looked, but that shirt is setting on the top of my book shelf here in the office. Shoot I even have free gifts from vendors that I can promise you I would never use or recommend to anyone, but they are cool gifts, and hey they are free. Your argument is flawed in saying that anyone who has X (coffee cup, T-Shirt, ball, backpack, mints in tin, pen's, calendar, notepad, hat, poster,.. or any 1 of a million free gifts) is, has, might, or could one day act unethically because it might cause them to favor that vendor over another. By your example any one in the food service business who samples the free food at the grocery store is suffering from a real or perceived conflict of interest. Maybe they were just having a snack craving! That's the problem with your never ending mantra about gifts and your issue about weather or not this is a conflict of interest. -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 People mis-characterize and read things into my posts that are not there. This one I have to do in-line. First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. No one in 8 years has proven the statement flawed or illogical that when you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry that it presents a real or perceived conflict of interest. This has been the point since day one, is the point today and will be the point tomorrow and the next day and the next. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Yes, I understand and know all that, but that was not the point. Ethics go far, far beyond mere laws. Lawyers can be disbarred for ethics violations but not face any criminal prosecution. Yes, they can also be disbarred AND face criminal prosecution, but the point was made in response to an argument that indicated that ALL ethics must be legislated. Don't take things out of context. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. I don't say this. I say that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest and hence a violation of basic ethics. I have stated repeatedly that MVP's may well NEVER cause anyone to ACT unethically. And guess what? It is irrelevant, it is still a real or perceived conflict of interest. What part of this are you missing? Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] Again, it does not matter if MVP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, results in world peace and gives every starving kid a home. None of that changes that it is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Again, it matters not one bit if MVP's act unethically or not, it is a conflict
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You sir, are absolutely, 100% correct. Why others cannot understand this basic point is well beyond my ability to comprehend but I'm glad someone out there gets it. Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the gift (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say could be. The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics.=20 Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the not even the appearance of impropriety standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the line that divides ethical from unethical.=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Ed, I am not calling you a liar, but you are wrong. You yourself brought up this conversation. And yes, I expressed concern EIGHT YEARS AGO and since then have never brought it up. Yet another lie. You brought it up in this forum. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:06 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I never asked you to modify your behavior. Do what you want. It is a GOOD thing for me that people do not have my particular views on ethics. I have won clients and I keep clients, in part, based on my ethics. My clients know that come heck or high water, I am going to be fanactically loyal to my clients and no one else, ever. And yes, I expressed concern EIGHT YEARS AGO and since then have never brought it up. It keeps being brought up by other people. Let it go. You are the only person who ever expressed any perceived conflict of interest. I am not going to modify my behavior to conform to your standards. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Yes, you are correct Ed. I cannot prove the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that you live on the planet that orbits a sun. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Sweet. Just when the Greg/Ed spamfest was dying down, we get a revival. Excellent middle schoolFight Fight/middle school -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 6:19 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, you are correct Ed. I cannot prove the obvious. I cannot prove that an apple is red or that the sky is blue or that you live on the planet that orbits a sun. If you are not willing to accept the obvious, then I will never be able to prove anything to you. Likewise, and more importantly sinc, you haven't proven your statement true. It is only a real or perceived conflict of interest in your own mind. You haven't proven anything beyond that. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Oh for f**ks sake get over this. At the end of the day we are *only* IT Professionals providing a service. We're not that important in the bigger picture. Sure, some will abuse their position and that's a not too nice part of human nature - greed and nepotism. Full stop. It happens all the time in business and in ALL society. If you really have a problem with 'ethics' then direct it towards bigger fish like the fact the White House administration (amongst many other 'democratic' administrations) awards the billion dollar contracts to their buddies. Now that would make an interesting read. And don't get me started on your definition of money intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
GD wrote: Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. Well I can't entirely knock the 'perceived' CoI because you certainly perceive it and I'm sure you are not alone so I'll have to leave that aside. Obviously there are serious CoI's that might arise from taking 'gifts' in all sort of situations and noone is disputing that. This is not to say they anyone agrees the MVP programme falls on this side of the divide. There are awards in other professional fields that I see as clearly analogous with the MVP awards - particularly awards given to sportsmen. (In fact in the USA don't sportsmen receive MVP awards of another sort?) In cricket, for example, the BBC commentary programme Test Match Special gives an award at every match called the Champagne Moment. This is given to the player who provides a moment of entertainment that the commentary team feel would have particularly pleased one of their former members, now sadly deceased. This award is not necessarily given for _good_ play, sometimes quite the opposite. Furthermore the 'title' is accompanied by a sizeable quantity of good quality Champagne. Is there a conflict of interests here? Would a player ever deliberately clown around to the detriment of his team? No, there isn't and he wouldn't. Zinedine Zidane has just won what is probably the most prestigious award of this sort in sport - World Footballer of the Year. There was nothing he could do to gain this award other than impressing the diverse judges with his performance in his job. There is nothing he can do to retain it save _continue_ to perform well. However the award is worth more in terms of prestige and cold hard cash opportunities than any of us is ever likely to amass in our lifetime. Is Zidane's professionalism in question? Do Real Madrid (his main employers) perceive a conflict of interests? I wouldn't have thought so. The far less glamorous and lucrative Microsoft MVP award is broadly similar. It has no set criteria that one can work towards but is given for excellent performance and there is no obvious way to retain the award. We're talking about a player-of-the-season award and nothing more. The information contained in this e-mail is intended for the recipient or entity to whom it is addressed. It may contain confidential information that is exempt from disclosure by law and if you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any act in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete from your system. _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
player-of-the-season award Nice analogy This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. It should not be deemed to constitute a binding contract between TKC Group and the recipient(s) unless a purchase order number is quoted. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of TKC Group Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient(s), please do not copy or disclose its contents. Please return it to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] then delete the email. intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Dude, STFU. --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone who starves children, but no one has refuted this most basic argument. I have never wavered from this argument, this has been the argument since the beginning that this all started. This is why companies tell their employees that they must send back gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS. Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy argument you want to throw at it, this is basic ethics people. If you want to change my mind, then prove the above argument false. Simple as that. Now, I don't bring this stuff up. All it causes is this kind of craziness. Other people bring this stuff up. Exactly why is a mystery to me. Look at the subject of this message thread for Christ's sake. Are you kidding me? And it is not like I even threw in one of my whimsical Microsoft barbs. If someone is going to bring this stuff up, I am always, ALWAYS going to stick to this perspective and explain things the way I see them. Nobody has proven this logic wrong in 8 years. But, hey, I'm willing to think that someone might. There may be a flaw in there somewhere, that I do not see. And all this nonsense about tone and stating things as my opinion is all crap, a waste of bytes and besides the point. People read what they want to read in my posts, plain and simple. What is straight talk to one person is rude to another. What is polite to one is rambling, annoying and pointless to another. There are way too many people in this world to try to please so I speak in my own voice. It is a matter of fact voice that sticks to known facts and logic. If you are offended by my posts, well, there is not much I can do. I am not going to worry over every word and sentence for perfect structure and politeness. I simply do not have the time. First of all, from a grammatical point-of-view, you only need to state that it is your opinion at the beginning of a paragraph or passage because it is fundamentally understood that follows the first phrase or sentence further backs up your opinion. It is my opinion that you are more worried about reveling in your moral and symantec righteousness than achieving the mental clarity to realize that your 1200 word marathon responses make you look like a total prat. But that is just my opinion. Disagreement is a necessary part of life and the human condition. If we all got along, we'd all think the same way and life would get very dull. You can disagree with someone (even with Ed) without saying they are wrong. This is the difference between stating a fact vs. opinion. By saying that someone is wrong, you are implying that you are correct and your reasons are based upon fact or accepted truth. Allrightythen! I guess this means that we aren't due to bring this topic up until June. Thanks for the comic relief, Greg! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:50 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 In my opinion, there are those with the opinion that stating anything as a fact and not an opinion is abrasive and rude. In my opinion, this opinion is absurd because it is fundamentally understood that anything that comes out of anyone's mouth is simply an opinion and not a fact. In my opinion, there may be some people with the opinion that people should not go around stating their opinions
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
yourself are guilty of just that by posting such messages. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 6:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone who starves children, but no one has refuted this most basic argument. I have never wavered from this argument, this has been the argument since the beginning that this all started. This is why companies tell their employees that they must send back gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS. Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy argument you want to throw at it, this is basic ethics people. If you want to change my mind, then prove the above argument false. Simple as that. Now, I don't bring this stuff up. All it causes is this kind of craziness. Other people bring this stuff up. Exactly why is a mystery to me. Look at the subject of this message thread for Christ's sake. Are you kidding me? And it is not like I even threw in one of my whimsical Microsoft barbs. If someone is going to bring this stuff up, I am always, ALWAYS going to stick to this perspective and explain things the way I see them. Nobody has proven this logic wrong in 8 years. But, hey, I'm willing to think that someone might. There may be a flaw in there somewhere, that I do not see. And all this nonsense about tone and stating things as my opinion is all crap, a waste of bytes and besides the point. People read what they want to read in my posts, plain and simple. What is straight talk to one person is rude to another. What is polite to one is rambling, annoying and pointless to another. There are way too many people in this world to try to please so I speak in my own voice. It is a matter of fact voice that sticks to known facts and logic. If you are offended by my posts, well, there is not much I can do. I am not going to worry over every word and sentence for perfect structure and politeness. I simply do not have the time. First of all, from a grammatical point-of-view, you only need to state that it is your opinion at the beginning of a paragraph or passage because it is fundamentally understood that follows the first phrase or sentence further backs up your opinion. It is my opinion that you are more worried about reveling in your moral and symantec righteousness than achieving the mental clarity to realize that your 1200 word marathon responses make you look like a total prat. But that is just my opinion. Disagreement is a necessary part of life and the human condition. If we all got along, we'd all think the same way and life would get very dull. You can disagree with someone (even with Ed) without saying they are wrong. This is the difference between stating a fact vs. opinion. By saying that someone is wrong, you are implying that you are correct and your reasons are based upon fact or accepted truth. Allrightythen! I guess this means that we aren't due to bring this topic up until June. Thanks for the comic relief, Greg! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:50 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 In my opinion, there are those with the opinion that stating anything as a fact and not an opinion is abrasive and rude. In my opinion, this opinion is absurd because it is fundamentally understood that anything that comes out of anyone's mouth is simply an opinion and not a fact. In my opinion, there may
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all about opinion, so don't go claiming it's all about known facts. There isn't a single fact in your diatribe except for those that say or imply, I believe I do agree that it's a fact that you believe some ridiculous point. People do read what you say in your posts, as opposed to reading what they read. Everyone recognizes
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Dude, STFU. --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all about opinion, so don't go claiming it's all about known facts. There isn't a single fact in your diatribe except for those that say or imply, I believe I do agree that it's a fact that you believe some ridiculous point. People do read what you say in your posts, as opposed to reading what
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
This is the BEST group, ever. I don't have to watch the soaps. All I've got to do is read this list! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:51 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Goes double from me. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Hanna Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:59 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Dude, STFU. --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all about opinion, so don't go claiming it's all about known facts. There isn't a single fact in your diatribe except for those
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You are the only person who ever expressed any perceived conflict of interest. I am not going to modify my behavior to conform to your standards. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:20 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all about opinion, so don't go claiming it's all about known facts. There isn't a single fact in your diatribe except for those that say or imply, I believe I do agree that it's a fact that you believe some
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Sometimes ethics are legislated, sometimes they are not. Regardless, you have not demonstrated that there is any ethical issue here outside your own mind. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:51 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Not knowing anything about your educational background, I will still readily and happily stack my educational and professional credentials against yours any day. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:51 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take the example of an Exchange deployment project. First thing to be decided: Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one can do to get an MCSE. You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Just to throw some salt in the wounds, the Federal Government has a law that states that any federal employee or govenrment contractor cannot accept any gift from a vendor with a value greater than $80. Anything over that is considered improper and a conflict of interest. If you accept the gift and you are a government contractor, you risk getting busted fined by the GAO as well risk losing your contract. Greg, last time I checked, pens and paper were less that $80.00. Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Ely, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:35 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Well said. Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Steve Hanna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:59 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Dude, STFU. --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. Why should you? It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all about opinion, so don't go claiming it's all
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
It's another thrilling round of Exchange Admin Deathmatch! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Adam Staub [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:58 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is the BEST group, ever. I don't have to watch the soaps. All I've got to do is read this list! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:51 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I never asked you to modify your behavior. Do what you want. It is a GOOD thing for me that people do not have my particular views on ethics. I have won clients and I keep clients, in part, based on my ethics. My clients know that come heck or high water, I am going to be fanactically loyal to my clients and no one else, ever. And yes, I expressed concern EIGHT YEARS AGO and since then have never brought it up. It keeps being brought up by other people. Let it go. You are the only person who ever expressed any perceived conflict of interest. I am not going to modify my behavior to conform to your standards. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Oh my! I'm hurt! Crushed I tell ya... What's not substantive about my posts? I can't provide facts for things which do not exist. You say the MVP's are violating a code of ethics. I'm asking for SUBSTANTIATED proof. Per your usual, you skirted everything I questioned meaning you have nothing to backup your opinion meaning your opinion is worth... Well, it think you know what your opinion is worth... If you don't, I'm sure others have made it clear that your opinion is worth squat, your skills as a consultant are at the very minimum humorous, and your ability to work with others... Severely lacking... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Ed, honestly, WTF does this have to do with ANYTHING? My list of credentials is longer than yours?? I mean, sure, what the heck. I will state this in the hopes that we can all move past this. Everyone, everyone, listen up, here it is: Ed Crowley has a longer list of credentials than I do. In fact, my list of credentials is small, puny and weak and I almost never show it to anyone. Jeez God man. Not knowing anything about your educational background, I will still readily and happily stack my educational and professional credentials against yours any day. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
DAMN YOU for filling up my Deleted Items bin! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:11 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Ed, honestly, WTF does this have to do with ANYTHING? My list of credentials is longer than yours?? I mean, sure, what the heck. I will state this in the hopes that we can all move past this. Everyone, everyone, listen up, here it is: Ed Crowley has a longer list of credentials than I do. In fact, my list of credentials is small, puny and weak and I almost never show it to anyone. Jeez God man. Not knowing anything about your educational background, I will still readily and happily stack my educational and professional credentials against yours any day. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I adding this subject line to my x-wall.. PLEASE STOP! -Original Message- From: Eric Fretz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:09 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 DAMN YOU for filling up my Deleted Items bin! Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:11 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Ed, honestly, WTF does this have to do with ANYTHING? My list of credentials is longer than yours?? I mean, sure, what the heck. I will state this in the hopes that we can all move past this. Everyone, everyone, listen up, here it is: Ed Crowley has a longer list of credentials than I do. In fact, my list of credentials is small, puny and weak and I almost never show it to anyone. Jeez God man. Not knowing anything about your educational background, I will still readily and happily stack my educational and professional credentials against yours any day. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Yes, and titles are priceless. Just to throw some salt in the wounds, the Federal Government has a law that states that any federal employee or govenrment contractor cannot accept any gift from a vendor with a value greater than $80. Anything over that is considered improper and a conflict of interest. If you accept the gift and you are a government contractor, you risk getting busted fined by the GAO as well risk losing your contract. Greg, last time I checked, pens and paper were less that $80.00. Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Ely, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:35 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. Kindly define significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles. Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a thank you, if you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed me to do a single thing. Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express my
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Thank-you for proving my point. Oh my! I'm hurt! Crushed I tell ya... What's not substantive about my posts? I can't provide facts for things which do not exist. You say the MVP's are violating a code of ethics. I'm asking for SUBSTANTIATED proof. Per your usual, you skirted everything I questioned meaning you have nothing to backup your opinion meaning your opinion is worth... Well, it think you know what your opinion is worth... If you don't, I'm sure others have made it clear that your opinion is worth squat, your skills as a consultant are at the very minimum humorous, and your ability to work with others... Severely lacking... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
How ironic, my clients (when I was in private practice) knew that too. -Ben- Ben M. Schorr, MVP-OneNote, CNA, MCPx4 Director of Information Services Damon Key Leong Kupchak Hastert http://www.hawaiilawyer.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:06 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I never asked you to modify your behavior. Do what you want. It is a GOOD thing for me that people do not have my particular views on ethics. I have won clients and I keep clients, in part, based on my ethics. My clients know that come heck or high water, I am going to be fanactically loyal to my clients and no one else, ever. And yes, I expressed concern EIGHT YEARS AGO and since then have never brought it up. It keeps being brought up by other people. Let it go. You are the only person who ever expressed any perceived conflict of interest. I am not going to modify my behavior to conform to your standards. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
http://www.infonition.com/marathon.shtml Interesting. -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang= english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I used to work for a MS partner and they definitely got freebies! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David, Andy Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Dude, STFU --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Thanks alot guys. You have me considereing to start smoking again and drink more than socially From: Steve Hanna [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Exchange Discussions [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Exchange Discussions [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:41:40 -0500 Dude, STFU --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Personal attacks are generally the clearest sign that someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. So now I am a wife beater, a liar, I starve children and I get beat up a lot. I keep learning things about myself that I never knew before, I love this list. You got beat up a lot in High School didn't you... You should have asked them (while being beaten to a pulp) to leave you some brain cells to operate with... _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You still haven't demonstrated that the Conflict of Interest exists. Where's the conflict in me (an MS-leaning IT manager) hiring a MS-knowledgeable person to implement MS-based technology in my MS-based enterprise? The MVP I'm hiring has not swayed me towards the decision to *use* MS software. I've already made that call. If I decide to rip out all of my MS software and deploy chimpanzees with abacuses to run my business, I will hire staff/conslutants with comparable experience. Where's the frigging conflict of interest? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending products H... I get it now!!! All of the MVP's RECOMMEND MS products on the various newsgroups, they don't actually SUPPORT the products... See Ed, you've been recommending that everyone use an MS Solution this whole time, you haven't been offering support of said products... That's why you and all the MVP's are wrong about this Code of Ethics... -Original Message- From: Erik Sojka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:35 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 http://www.infonition.com/marathon.shtml Interesting. -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang = english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Is there an MVP award for Chimps or the Abacus for that matter? -Original Message- From: Erik Sojka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:40 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You still haven't demonstrated that the Conflict of Interest exists. Where's the conflict in me (an MS-leaning IT manager) hiring a MS-knowledgeable person to implement MS-based technology in my MS-based enterprise? The MVP I'm hiring has not swayed me towards the decision to *use* MS software. I've already made that call. If I decide to rip out all of my MS software and deploy chimpanzees with abacuses to run my business, I will hire staff/conslutants with comparable experience. Where's the frigging conflict of interest? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ely, Don Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending products H... I get it now!!! All of the MVP's RECOMMEND MS products on the various newsgroups, they don't actually SUPPORT the products... See Ed, you've been recommending that everyone use an MS Solution this whole time, you haven't been offering support of said products... That's why you and all the MVP's are wrong about this Code of Ethics... -Original Message- From: Erik Sojka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:35 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 http://www.infonition.com/marathon.shtml Interesting. -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang = english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Only if the chimps were using Microsoft Abacus 2003 Eric Fretz L-3 Communications ComCept Division 2800 Discovery Blvd. Rockwall, TX 75032 tel: 972.772.7501 fax: 972.772.7510 -Original Message- From: Ely, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:35 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Is there an MVP award for Chimps or the Abacus for that matter? -Original Message- From: Erik Sojka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:40 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You still haven't demonstrated that the Conflict of Interest exists. Where's the conflict in me (an MS-leaning IT manager) hiring a MS-knowledgeable person to implement MS-based technology in my MS-based enterprise? The MVP I'm hiring has not swayed me towards the decision to *use* MS software. I've already made that call. If I decide to rip out all of my MS software and deploy chimpanzees with abacuses to run my business, I will hire staff/conslutants with comparable experience. Where's the frigging conflict of interest? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Yes, we pay Microsoft to be a partner and get freebies. As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
You still haven't demonstrated that the Conflict of Interest exists. =20 When you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, that is a conflict of interest. Where's the conflict in me (an MS-leaning IT manager) hiring a MS-knowledgeable person to implement MS-based technology in my MS-based enterprise? =20 The MVP I'm hiring has not swayed me towards the decision to *use* MS software. I've already made that call. If I decide to rip out all of = my MS software and deploy chimpanzees with abacuses to run my business, I will = hire staff/conslutants with comparable experience. Where's the frigging = conflict of interest? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Yes, we did a phenomenal job for Marathon and Microsoft, without or knowledge, chose to include us in their case study about Marathon. http://www.infonition.com/marathon.shtml Interesting. =20 -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 =20 =20 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? =20 =20 =20 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 =20 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as=20 the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your=20 decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all=20 of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. =20 You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you=20 feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not=20 change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict=20 of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. =20 My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = =3D=20 standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes=20 time to make=20 hiring =3D decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants,=20 how should I=20 proceed? Let's take =3D the example of an Exchange=20 deployment project.=20 =3D20 =20 First thing to be decided:=3D20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? =20 Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help=20 with =3D my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their=20 expertise somehow? =20 The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP=20 status is, IMO. =20 =3D You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box=20 tops, as one =3D can do to get an MCSE. =3D20 =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will=20 automatically recommend technology from their masters *for=20 their own =3D=20 personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed=20 (to use him =3D as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already=20 made the =3D=20 decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best=20 person I can =3D find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for = their knowledge? =20 =20 =20 =20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchanget ext_mode=3Dlang =3Denglish To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchangetext_mode=3D= lang=3D english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
First of all, I've seen plenty of statements by people who accurately depict reasons that your opinion is bunk. You've either not read or not comprehended them. I've seen your comments repeatedly over the years, and continue to disagree with them. Its also painfully obvious to a casual observer that you're using incorrect statements in defense of your position. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. While this is technically accurate, in fact it is inaccurate. Both these professions require licenses to practice. Lawyers who decide to cross a relatively arbitrary line involving a conflict of interest can and have been disbarred - in other words, their license to practice law is revoked. Doctors, too, can have their medical license suspended or revoked. In either case, they are not allowed to practice their profession without that license. Ergo, those professions' codes of ethics *are*, if somewhat indirect, law. Your most asinine statements, however, are your explicit statements that being awarded a vendor sponsored honor automatically removes any and all objectivity for those on whom the honor is bestowed. The fact that you repeatedly use that argument shows me how weak your argument really is, especially since you can't show a single instance of where this actually has happened. Because the MVP community is both under NDA's to Microsoft and also has private community newsgroups, you don't see that MVP's as a group are some of the most critical of Microsoft's products and policies. But none of that matters to you, because we're all just in Microsoft's pockets anyways. Its not like 12 of the 24 servers I've deployed this year run non-Microsoft OS's or anything.[1] So, I think its fair to say that you've not come even remotely close to proving to anyone where this alleged conflict of interest is, and how it negatively impacts our objectivity. And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? Roger -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. [1] 8 OpenBSD and 4 Linux, with 2 more Linux boxes due early next year -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
So Microsoft are unethical because they accepted payments from you? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: 17 December 2003 20:42 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, we pay Microsoft to be a partner and get freebies. As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode =lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? I'm biased towards my employer and they didn't even give me any initials. What a gyp! -Ben- Ben M. Schorr, MVP-OneNote, CNA, MCPx4 Director of Information Services Damon Key Leong Kupchak Hastert http://www.hawaiilawyer.com _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Schorr Sent: 17 December 2003 21:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? I'm biased towards my employer and they didn't even give me any initials. What a gyp! Have you spoke to a union about this? Shameful! _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Then quit beating this dead horse -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I have no interest in winning. Can this thread please go away...You're not going to win Greg... _ John Bowles Exchange Engineer OIG/HHS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]=20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Dude, STFU. --steve -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 3:58 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, we did a phenomenal job for Marathon and Microsoft, without or knowledge, chose to include us in their case study about Marathon. http://www.infonition.com/marathon.shtml Interesting. =20 -Original Message- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 =20 =20 As a Microsoft Partner, does your company get any freebies? =20 =20 =20 -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 =20 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as=20 the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your=20 decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all=20 of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. =20 You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you=20 feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not=20 change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict=20 of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. =20 My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = =3D=20 standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes=20 time to make=20 hiring =3D decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants,=20 how should I=20 proceed? Let's take =3D the example of an Exchange=20 deployment project.=20 =3D20 =20 First thing to be decided:=3D20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? =20 Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help=20 with =3D my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their=20 expertise somehow? =20 The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP=20 status is, IMO. =20 =3D You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box=20 tops, as one =3D can do to get an MCSE. =3D20 =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will=20 automatically recommend technology from their masters *for=20 their own =3D=20 personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed=20 (to use him =3D as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already=20 made the =3D=20 decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best=20 person I can =3D find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for = their knowledge? =20 =20 =20 =20 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchanget ext_mode=3Dlang =3Denglish To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchange text_mode=3D= lang=3D english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I thought Hawaii banned unions? -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. -Original Message- From: Robert Moir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:04 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Schorr Sent: 17 December 2003 21:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? I'm biased towards my employer and they didn't even give me any initials. What a gyp! Have you spoke to a union about this? Shameful! _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I don't care who wins, I just wanna get out of the sand box and back into the classroom. John Parker, MCSE IS Admin. Senior Technical Specialist Alpha Display Systems. Alpha Video 7711 Computer Ave. Edina, MN. 55435 952-896-9898 Local 800-388-0008 Watts 952-896-9899 Fax 612-804-8769 Cell 952-841-3327 Direct [EMAIL PROTECTED] Be excellent to each other ---End of Line--- -Original Message- From: Roger Seielstad [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 3:31 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I thought Hawaii banned unions? -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. -Original Message- From: Robert Moir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:04 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Schorr Sent: 17 December 2003 21:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? I'm biased towards my employer and they didn't even give me any initials. What a gyp! Have you spoke to a union about this? Shameful! _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
They were going to but the unions wouldn't allow it. (Hawaii, traditionally, is one of the most union-run states in the country. Up until his recent corruption conviction public union leader Gary Rodrigues was often referred to as the most powerful man in the state.) -Ben- Ben M. Schorr, MVP-OneNote, CNA, MCPx4 Director of Information Services Damon Key Leong Kupchak Hastert http://www.hawaiilawyer.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roger Seielstad Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:31 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I thought Hawaii banned unions? -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. -Original Message- From: Robert Moir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:04 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Schorr Sent: 17 December 2003 21:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? I'm biased towards my employer and they didn't even give me any initials. What a gyp! Have you spoke to a union about this? Shameful! _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
He could move to the UK then. I mean who wouldn't, if they lived in Hawaii? Oh. Wait. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roger Seielstad Sent: 17 December 2003 21:31 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I thought Hawaii banned unions? -- Roger D. Seielstad - MTS MCSE MS-MVP Sr. Systems Administrator Inovis Inc. -Original Message- From: Robert Moir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:04 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Schorr Sent: 17 December 2003 21:03 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 And, in the interest of full disclosure, two of the three accolades in my signature line are from Microsoft, obviously the last two. The first (MTS) was bestowed by my employer. Does that mean I'm instantly biased towards my employer? I'm biased towards my employer and they didn't even give me any initials. What a gyp! Have you spoke to a union about this? Shameful! _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchanget ext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
I've got just one question... Is Greg a reincarnation of Drew Nicholson? There's just about about as much chance of getting substantiated proof from either one of them, they both tend to drone on incessantly in circular arguments and you'll never win an argument with either of them. You will just get drawn into the quagmire of his Drewness...er, Gregness. :::sigh::: Let it die people. -Original Message- From: Ely, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:03 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Oh my! I'm hurt! Crushed I tell ya... What's not substantive about my posts? I can't provide facts for things which do not exist. You say the MVP's are violating a code of ethics. I'm asking for SUBSTANTIATED proof. Per your usual, you skirted everything I questioned meaning you have nothing to backup your opinion meaning your opinion is worth... Well, it think you know what your opinion is worth... If you don't, I'm sure others have made it clear that your opinion is worth squat, your skills as a consultant are at the very minimum humorous, and your ability to work with others... Severely lacking... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:02 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Yes, really. Laws are designed to define the floor. Ethics are designed to define the ceiling. No, I am simply someone that has a particular view of things that people seem to be utterly fascinated with and keep bringing it up. I am not a spokesman, I have an opinion. I have come to my conclusions about you because all I see is talk, talk, talk in your posts but nothing substantive. I have yet to see you make an intelligent comment or argument yet. A personal attack from me goes so much deeper, but I'll leave that be. On to bigger and brighter things!!! And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. Oh really! This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Now we're getting somewhere!!! Tell me Greg, are YOU the spokesman for the IT industry? Does the IT industry have party affiliations? Are Ed and the rest of the MVP's the Liberal's in this case where you're the Conservative? Who voted you to be the spokesman for the IT industry and why didn't I/we get to vote? Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism,...(bunch of other shinola) Not educated on Ethics? Oh, I'm very educated in many things, IT just happens to be one of them. I'm just interested in how you came to these conclusions, actual facts to backup your statements, and anyone else who follows your beliefs if that is what you want to call them... NEXT! -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:51 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 What was it then, a compliment? You cannot even be honest in your criticism. And ethics are not passed as laws. There is no law that a company's employees cannot accept gifts. The ethics that lawyers and doctors follow are also not laws. This discussion is about the IT industry, as a whole or in part, deciding what is and is not ethical. We, as an industry, do that, not a legislative body. Look, it is obvious that you are discussing something that you have not bothered educate yourself on, are not being honest in your criticism, have nothing to say and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, that being said, yes, you are brilliant and you win. Happy? Oh, that was not a personal attack... And I don't lose arguments... I tell ya what. You find me the documentation to support your claim for our industry and I might be inclined to believe you. I'll need actual laws passed by Federal/Local Governments or a consortium of some kind AND any cases that were brought to trial on this subject. Please provide these details in a time stamped format so I can see at what point in time these laws went into effect... There ARE laws on the books regarding this perceived ethical violation, right? Everyone should probably cease assisting you with your Groupwise migration since it might get those of us who are not MVP's nominated for such things and it would be unethical of us to assist you. So, please stop asking for help as the answers we provide will be unethical in nature... -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:34 PM To: Exchange Discussions
RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
To me, you sound like a crank. Business customs in places in the world that exchange lots of gifts as a matter of business ettiquette would tend to falsify your hypothesis. But I suspect that doesn't matter to you. You stand alone against the World, eh? You aren't building some sort of monster in the basement to exact revenge on those fools at the Academy are you? Jim H -Original Message- From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Alright, this is a good question. Bottom line is that if, as the hiring body, you don't care then ethics are irrelevant in your decision and you do what you want. Ethics do not have to be the end all, be all of decision making. And, it is also absolutely not the case that MVP's will always recommend Microsoft software for their own personal gain. You are exactly correct, you have final say about what you feel is and is not relevant about your hiring decisions. But, this does not change the situation that the MVP title is a real or perceived conflict of interest. Of course it is, but whether or not you care is up to you. My company, Consolidated Widgets, Inc., has previously decided to = standardize on MS software at all levels. When it comes time to make hiring = decisions, whether for FTEs or for conslutants, how should I proceed? Let's take = the example of an Exchange deployment project. =20 First thing to be decided:=20 Do I want a generic technologist? Do I want an unrelated technology guru? Do I want a Windows/Exchange guru? Assuming I choose the last option: Do I want someone who has heard of Exchange and may be able to help with = my deployment after reading some books? Do I want someone who is an expert, and can demonstrate their expertise somehow? The demonstration of the expertise is all that the MVP status is, IMO. = You don't attain MVP status by sending in a bunch of cereal box tops, as one = can do to get an MCSE. =20 You whole premise is that an employee/conslutant with an MVP will automatically recommend technology from their masters *for their own = personal gain*. I don't see this being the case. If I'm hiring Ed (to use him = as an example) to help with my Exchange migration, I've already made the = decision to use that MS technology. At that point, I want the best person I can = find and afford. Why hire a consultant, if not for their knowledge? _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchangetext_mode=lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
