[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
The latest TM teacher training course costs $16,500. They will give you scholarships up to $10,000 and loan up to $5000 that is forgivable if you go teach full-time for 2 years where they say. Reading between the lines of what videos about TTC say, if you are young enough (25ish), you can become a TM teacher for $1,500. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Let me reply on behalf of Michael. Ha! Proves It!. Just what we all suspected! Marshy tricked us all. Told us our meditation was the most important activity for the movement. But no, it was the kitchen activity. No doubt this was just a ploy on the his part to make us pay more for kitchen ingredients. Or, I know! He told us we needed to pay more for better ingredients, and the substituted cheap stuff. And no doubt Girish was there, making a note of it all. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Before a meeting with scientists in Seelisberg Maharishi was asked; Who is the most important person here now. Maharishi replied: the cook ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a result of his upbringing. Go figure. Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds of problems? Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well. Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at a Zen Session. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
You are an idiot.
Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen
introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan,
it is associated with the Soto school.
Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three
traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and
Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or
content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing
them to arise and pass away without interference.
On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
I love these
things that sound like 'designer', meditations or
designer martial arts techniques.
Our special tonight is shikantaza meditation, which
we will do while sitting in a modified Cheyenne sweat lodge,
which has been purified and smoked with a sandalwood
reduction incense which has been placed on hexagonal
charcoal base from a banyan tree in central
Tibet.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
mjackson74@... wrote :
I'd like to know
how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I
have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get
vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then
get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after
about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I
do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance
on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams punditster@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
and the New TM Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
for
itself. Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
Antivirus protection
is active.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since
you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around
as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at
it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about
what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders
are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused
under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted
to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime -
he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal
critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you
feel afterwards.
On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P
Jesus Christ,
what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a
means to enlightenment, you've arrived little
fella.
Between that, and your list
of Bourbons, you've got the spaced
covered.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
mjackson74@... wrote :
You
are an idiot.
Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a
Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the
Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated
with the Soto school.
Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is
the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in
Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It
emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors,
or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream
of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without
interference.
On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@...
steve.sundur@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
and the New TM Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 11:48 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: I came up with a different way of putting it recently: The TM class is a 4-day long koan, that is hopefully going to clarify the nonsensical phrase think a mantra effortlessly This reminds me of my attempt at sutra authoring: /*1.3 jus b reg 2 x y med, ne alt sans 3 guns, seps abs, n' eyes-wide shut; nodoze, no bear down, u enjoy.*/ --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I am happy that you have found a technique that works for you. Thanks for explaining something about it. But I see that you have not lost your ability to tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan Morris etc. I guess the Shikantaza form of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with TMO. Keep at it, and maybe you will have a breakthrough. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. I still say if you have hundreds of thousands of people doing something there are bound to be those who end up murdering people, dying, committing or attempting to commit suicide, winning the lottery or publishing a book. It has to do with statistics and probability. To try and pin mental illness or psychiatric breakdown primarily on the fact that someone rounded or started TM is a bit iffy. I've talked about this before with regard to those who go overboard on something. Do they go overboard (join Mother Divine, round non-stop for 6 months etc.) because they are obsessive or unbalanced to begin with or do they become unbalanced because they do too much of one thing? I am pretty sure if someone were to practice little old TM twice a day for 20 mins and ended up going stark ravers, they were bonkers to begin with.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Not to mention, we have no idea what the relative percentages are of TMers who commit suicide versus those in the general population. For all we know, the percentage of TMers could be smaller. Certainly suicidal TMers tend to draw more attention because it's so contrary to what TM promises. But does that mistakenly foster the idea that there are more of them than in the general population? Also, as Ann suggests, it would be important to look closely at TMers who end up in a bad way (or dead) to see whether they were headed in that direction before ever starting TM. There are just too many unknowns to suggest that TM practice in and of itself is the cause. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. I still say if you have hundreds of thousands of people doing something there are bound to be those who end up murdering people, dying, committing or attempting to commit suicide, winning the lottery or publishing a book. It has to do with statistics and probability. To try and pin mental illness or psychiatric breakdown primarily on the fact that someone rounded or started TM is a bit iffy. I've talked about this before with regard to those who go overboard on something. Do they go overboard (join Mother Divine, round non-stop for 6 months etc.) because they are obsessive or unbalanced to begin with or do they become unbalanced because they do too much of one thing? I am pretty sure if someone were to practice little old TM twice a day for 20 mins and ended up going stark ravers, they were bonkers to begin with.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/3/2014 5:25 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. The term Shikentaza means zazen - which is sitting meditation. In Zen Buddhism, zazen (literally seated meditation...is a meditative discipline practitioners perform to calm the body and the mind... in order to experience insight into the nature of existence and thereby gain enlightenment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazen --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain
circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. To say what you are
saying is to blame the victim - TM is not without side effects
On Sat, 5/3/14, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:30 PM
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
mjackson74@... wrote :
How
is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what
Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of
designer meditation - it has been around as part
of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking
pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't
care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster
Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and
how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS
caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted
suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more
are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born
and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very
vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences
sometime and see how you feel afterwards.
I still say if you have hundreds
of thousands of people doing something there are bound to be
those who end up murdering people, dying, committing or
attempting to commit suicide, winning the lottery or
publishing a book. It has to do with statistics and
probability. To try and pin mental illness or
psychiatric breakdown primarily on the fact that someone
rounded or started TM is a bit iffy. I've talked about
this before with regard to those who go overboard on
something. Do they go overboard (join Mother Divine, round
non-stop for 6 months etc.) because they are obsessive or
unbalanced to begin with or do they become unbalanced
because they do too much of one thing? I am pretty sure if
someone were to practice little old TM twice a day for 20
mins and ended up going stark ravers, they were bonkers to
begin with.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
not a tirade merely statement of facts - talk to Kyle like I suggest and see
whats what
On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:25 PM
I am happy
that you have found a technique that works for you. Thanks
for explaining something about it.
But I see that you have not lost your ability to
tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan
Morris etc.
I guess the Shikantaza form
of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse
effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with
TMO.
Keep at it, and maybe you
will have a breakthrough.
---In
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote
:
How is this dropping
names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you
mocked it as being some kind of designer
meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist
practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at
it just because I like it and you don't care for me
since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was,
what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much
damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused
under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted
suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more
are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born
and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very
vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences
sometime and see how you feel afterwards.
On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@...
steve.sundur@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
and the New TM Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P
Jesus Christ,
what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was
a
means to enlightenment, you've arrived little
fella.
Between that, and your list
of Bourbons, you've got the spaced
covered.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
mjackson74@... wrote :
You
are an idiot.
Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a
Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of
the
Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is
associated
with the Soto school.
Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?)
is
the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in
Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku).
It
emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects,
anchors,
or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the
stream
of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without
interference.
On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@...
steve.sundur@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
and the New TM Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Michael, why don't you post it. I mean, really, I'm a little burned out having read many of the smoking gun stories that you are certain prove the point of how bad is the TMO. My God, the latest expose of the mold in the vent at MUM didn't quite have the bang you might have expected. And then there was the courageous student challenging the teacher about a study. Turns out there were a few pertinent facts left out which may have bolstered or weakened the story. Did you hear that? Bolstered or weakened the story. But carry on oh Christian Soldier! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : not a tirade merely statement of facts - talk to Kyle like I suggest and see whats what On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:25 PM I am happy that you have found a technique that works for you. Thanks for explaining something about it. But I see that you have not lost your ability to tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan Morris etc. I guess the Shikantaza form of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with TMO. Keep at it, and maybe you will have a breakthrough. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. To say what you are saying is to blame the victim - TM is not without side effects On Sat, 5/3/14, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:30 PM ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. I still say if you have hundreds of thousands of people doing something there are bound to be those who end up murdering people, dying, committing or attempting to commit suicide, winning the lottery or publishing a book. It has to do with statistics and probability. To try and pin mental illness or psychiatric breakdown primarily on the fact that someone rounded or started TM is a bit iffy. I've talked about this before with regard to those who go overboard on something. Do they go overboard (join Mother Divine, round non-stop for 6 months etc.) because they are obsessive or unbalanced to begin with or do they become unbalanced because they do too much of one thing? I am pretty sure if someone were to practice little old TM twice a day for 20 mins and ended up going stark ravers, they were bonkers to begin with.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/3/2014 3:18 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. To say what you are saying is to blame the victim - TM is not without side effects Maybe you could explain to us how sitting down with your eyes closed for a few minutes and thinking something over would have a side effect. What, exactly would happen to the average person who would be thinking up a nonsense syllable, just like any other thought? Thanks for any help you can give me. Some random thoughts on meditation: It has already been established by John Knapp over on the Trance-nut web site that TM is nothing more than simply napping (no pundit intended) for the large majority of people. I've never heard of anyone complaining about taking a short nap, unless to say it wasn't long enough. Go figure. On the other hand, concentrated thinking on a complicated problem has been shown to produce a psycho-physical side effect known in medical and clinical studies as acute, severe headache. This has been demonstrated in scientific blind-studies, published in peer-reviewed, learned journals and on the internet. It's complicated. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/3/2014 4:24 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: And then there was the courageous student challenging the teacher about a study. Turns out there were a few pertinent facts left out which may have bolstered or weakened the story. This reminds me of the story Barry often tells, about the guy on TMO ATC that climbed over the wall to get some ice cream one evening and was taken to task by the yoga camp leader. It turns out that */ice cream-craving/* is one of the side effects of long rounding. If I ever attend an ATC I will insist on being served Promise Land Dairy warm milk before going to bed every night. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a result of his upbringing. Go figure. Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds of problems? Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well. Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at a Zen Session. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
use your common sense - if you don't like what I post, don't read it On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 9:24 PM Michael, why don't you post it. I mean, really, I'm a little burned out having read many of the smoking gun stories that you are certain prove the point of how bad is the TMO. My God, the latest expose of the mold in the vent at MUM didn't quite have the bang you might have expected. And then there was the courageous student challenging the teacher about a study. Turns out there were a few pertinent facts left out which may have bolstered or weakened the story. Did you hear that? Bolstered or weakened the story. But carry on oh Christian Soldier! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : not a tirade merely statement of facts - talk to Kyle like I suggest and see whats what On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:25 PM I am happy that you have found a technique that works for you. Thanks for explaining something about it. But I see that you have not lost your ability to tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan Morris etc. I guess the Shikantaza form of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with TMO. Keep at it, and maybe you will have a breakthrough. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
By all accounts MJ was a very conscientious baker. I suspect that his leaving left a void in the operation for a spell. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a result of his upbringing. Go figure. Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds of problems? Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well. Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at a Zen Session. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : well, I feel a compulsion to comment on things that I think are skewed. plus, and really, I don't mean to burst your bubble, so, I will try to whisper it, but you invited me to follow up on something you posted! This is making me laugh. For whatever reason, Steve, I'm diggin' your posts of late.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Before a meeting with scientists in Seelisberg Maharishi was asked; Who is the most important person here now. Maharishi replied: the cook ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a result of his upbringing. Go figure. Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds of problems? Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well. Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at a Zen Session. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that
I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for
that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to
increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Richard is just a guy who
likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in
bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said.
On Fri, 5/2/14, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:20 AM
---In
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote
:
On
5/1/2014 7:48 PM, Michael Jackson
wrote:
Only to a Marshy/Benjy Creme
sycophant like you
Nabster - Curtis comes across as pretty rational and
balanced to
people not wearing a My-Guru-Makes-Me-Special
blinders.
What you need to realize is that Curtis and Barry sold the
names of
the Hindu gods for money and THEN they did a 180 after
twenty
years - so why would anything they say now be
taken as
rational?
C: I've done
180 on beliefs I held yesterday Richard. Haven't you?
Your standard for judging rationality from the perspective
of the past is seriously flawed. But on the other hand I
don't ever expect anyone to assume anything I say is
anything, that is up to you to decide its value today. Not
from the perspective of ideas I once held and then
discarded. When Lincoln was accused of flip flopping on a
POV he said I do not
think much of a man who is not wiser today than he
was yesterday.
R:According to Sam Harris, if a person declares a belief in
something
like human levitation, this alone should immediately make
their
every statement suspect in the eyes of anyone they are
dialoging
with - because asserting a similarly non-evidentiary point
on a
religious doctrine ought to be met with similar disrespect.
C: I guess it is precisely
the evidentiary nature of the experience you are referring
to that is the relevant issue isn't it?
R: Which is not to say they aren't nice people and
talented, but even
common sense would dictate that they be questioned closely
concerning their own beliefs. Which is not to say that you
aren't a
nice person and talented, but you are acting like a True
Believer
yourself, if for no other reason than you are practicing a
Chinese
Kung Fu religion for two years and sucking up to Curtis and
Barry
now. Go figure.
C: I
didn't get that last part but I would be the first to
advocate being highly skeptical of anything I write here and
use your own proof system and bullshit detector. i certainly
try to run the same thing on myself and others here but am
as subject to human folly and personal bias as anyone. That
means anyone. We do our best and still get it wrong anyway.
I am happy to approach being less obviously wrong about what
I believe. That seems like enough to bite off for me.
Are you doing any better?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:11 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 8:18 PM, Share Long wrote: Richard, sense of self vanishing and having greater well being sounds like what happens during TM! That's because mindfullness training is just like TM practice, Share, and has the same goals - mental and physical well-being. TM practice is essentially Buddhist yoga. It's a lot easier to understand when you realize that meditation is just thinking things over in your conscious mind. It's not complicated. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:10 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I agree, Richard that what's needed is to study these different brain states in a scientific way. For one thing, to counter the flood of New Age beliefs that we now deal with in addition to the old age beliefs! A lot of the New Age beliefs, like it's better to be filter free, are actually in reaction to the old age when people were so enslaved by religious beliefs. For example, I think patients do better in surgery when they believe in a positive outcome. So in that situation, a filter is good. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:01 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 8:04 PM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com wrote: I am writing a journalism in this particular thread for an audience who are looking in to where it [TM] is at now. There seems to be only one person on this list, Lawson, that has been keeping up with the scientific studies done on TMer meditators or Hindu and Buddhist meditations, and it's not Curtis, Barry, or Sally. If anyone gets around to reading Sam Harris, they will know that he wants to incorporate spirituality in the domain of human reason and that he draws inspiration from the practices of Eastern religion, in particular that of meditation, as described principally by Hindu and Buddhist practitioners. It's a good thing that Rick brought up the subject of Sam Harris and it would be interesting to ask Harris about how states of mind and consciousness could be subjected to formal scientific investigation, without incorporating the myth and superstition that often accompanies meditation in the religious context. It's obvious that Curtis, Barry and Sally are not up to this task, considering their obvious biases. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Christopher Hitchens would agree with him if Barry were to say such a thing.
On Fri, 5/2/14, authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 1:14 PM
Right. You just regularly barge into
such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that
anyone who believes there is is worse than a
fool.
Although
I fully understand that some people get off on debating the
existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me
more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go
there.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Uh, duh. Barry has said such a thing, many times. My point was that while he professes to a hands-off approach to the issue, claiming to be bored by it, in fact he is driven to make frequent pronouncements of his perspective whenever it's discussed. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Christopher Hitchens would agree with him if Barry were to say such a thing. On Fri, 5/2/14, authfriend@... mailto:authfriend@... authfriend@... mailto:authfriend@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 1:14 PM Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. From: authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Richard is just a guy who likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said. Richard does what Bawwy does, repeats himself endlessy. The difference is that Ricky doesn't take himself seriously, in fact, he's laughing a himself while he does this. Bawwy, on the other hand, thinks he's shocking and disturbing people with is deep insights and renegade individuality.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 11:04 PM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: Nobody reads my tape loops anyway - so thanks for reading my tape loop. Now, about that Rama levitation tape loop... It's true. Loop de loop. Loopy. Sloppy Sloopy. Nobody wants to talk about human levitation, the centerpiece of the TMO and the Rama cult - the programs Curtis and Barry tried to sell for twenty years. NOW they want us to read their new loops? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. C: Sorry to bust your righteousness buzz but I was not. You are a current poster. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 4:46 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Everyone knows that chi is the life force mentioned by MMY - pure consciousness. You are either being really stupid or trying to trick us with your false claims about meditation practice. According to Sam Harris, the whole purpose of meditation is the well-being of the individual. Richard is just a guy who likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said. It's just that you are being hypocritical about basic TM and claiming to practice meditation and calling it chi gung' instead of TM. What I am saying is that meditation is meditation and that you are just being prejudiced against Hindus because you got fired from a waiter job in Iowa twenty years ago. Chi Gung is Kung Fu, you idiot. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: I still continue to practice a sitting meditation most days -- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed, dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it because I enjoy it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel refreshed and experience a clarity that I would possibly miss if I stopped. It's sorta like I've gone back to the first days of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done primarily because of its benefits in activity, not done for itself. Although, to be honest, I often don't get in two sitting meds per day. Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us that meditation is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Just making an observation, Barry. Since it's factually accurate, there's no basis to argue about it. In any case, some of the discussions of belief in God have been entirely pleasant until you stuck your nose in and insulted the participants. So in that sense, if I'm a pathetic old hag, so are you. Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. From: authfriend@... authfriend@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Okey-doke, glad to hear it. I don't recall anyone trying to stick you with Barry's perspective on Lenz's alleged levitation exploits, though, previous poster or otherwise (it wasn't entirely clear what previous poster meant--it could have referred to a poster not involved in the current discussion). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. C: Sorry to bust your righteousness buzz but I was not. You are a current poster. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Okey-doke, glad to hear it. I don't recall anyone trying to stick you with Barry's perspective on Lenz's alleged levitation exploits, C: I didn't claim this, I just said Barry's perspective. J: though, previous poster or otherwise (it wasn't entirely clear what previous poster meant--it could have referred to a poster not involved in the current discussion). C: Thanks for the edit. It was purposely vague because I didn't want to derail the discussion off the topic that interests me here, as so often happens on FFL. I believe Richard has some more valuable input than discussing other people who used to post here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. C: Sorry to bust your righteousness buzz but I was not. You are a current poster. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 6:47 AM, Share Long wrote: Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. According to MMY, TM is based on thinking - anyone who can think can meditate. So, everyone is already meditating to a certain degree. According to Charles Lutes, meditation means to think, and transcend means to go beyond thinking. The idea is to experience subtler states of awareness, free from distracting thoughts. Most people remain on the gross surface level of thinking - they don't dive very deep within very much at all. TM and other techniques provide a more direct angle for the diving. Everyday conscious thinking is more like a belly flop into a pool, which gets them into the water, but at the same time causes waves all around - compared to using a technique to dive deep into the water without disturbing everyone around them. Both get you into the water, but sometimes a belly flop can be quite stressful and cause you to think you're a klutz - when that happens it can be disconcerting. meditation –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Richard, belly flop is a really good analogy imo. And I also agree with you that everyone transcends even without a technique. I know you've said it before, but this time it hit me just right. Thanks. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:00 AM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/2/2014 6:47 AM, Share Long wrote: Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. According to MMY, TM is based on thinking - anyone who can think can meditate. So, everyone is already meditating to a certain degree. According to Charles Lutes, meditation means to think, and transcend means to go beyond thinking. The idea is to experience subtler states of awareness, free from distracting thoughts. Most people remain on the gross surface level of thinking - they don't dive very deep within very much at all. TM and other techniques provide a more direct angle for the diving. Everyday conscious thinking is more like a belly flop into a pool, which gets them into the water, but at the same time causes waves all around - compared to using a technique to dive deep into the water without disturbing everyone around them. Both get you into the water, but sometimes a belly flop can be quite stressful and cause you to think you're a klutz - when that happens it can be disconcerting. meditation –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have
been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I
feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss
starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss
gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
for
itself. Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
This email is free from viruses and malware
because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Certainly. Would be as interesting as your interviews over at batgap, putting everyone at sleep. Really Nabby? Have you spoken with “everyone”? Because batgap continues to grow by leaps and bounds. About 10,000/day engage with it in one way on another. http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywarid=515FB27823A7407Ea=10001310322279js=noresp=imgcf10=CP
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation,
C: It was Barry who described his practice this way. I don't accept the
conceptual model of samadhi to describe my meditation experiences anymore. My
experience with mindfulness meditation is that it is almost in the opposite
direction to diving deep. It is a more full awareness of the what I am
experiencing right now without any evaluation of 'deep or not.
I am not sure that bliss is a term that fits my perspective. Both forms of
meditation are subjectively enjoyable but in different ways. It is the
differences that I am hoping to discover as i continue to practice.
I am the last person to go to for meditation advice my brother! I am a one
step up from shitting in my own diaper baby with meditation. (But as a factor
of comfort, that upgrade makes all the difference in the world!0
I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the
bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The
bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do?
Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams punditster@... mailto:punditster@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
for
itself. Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. And what a phenomenal lack of imagination you have, Bawee. From: authfriend@... authfriend@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. I think Share might have pushed Bawee's belly button. From: Share Long sharelong60@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote: From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
FWIW, Maharishi said at one point, Bliss isn't blissful. By which he meant, I assume, that to experience blissfulness required some degree of waking-state consciousness. IOW, you wouldn't experience blissfullness in transcendental-consciousness-by-itself--but you would be in a state of bliss by definition (the ananda part of sat-chit-ananda). I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, C: It was Barry who described his practice this way. I don't accept the conceptual model of samadhi to describe my meditation experiences anymore. My experience with mindfulness meditation is that it is almost in the opposite direction to diving deep. It is a more full awareness of the what I am experiencing right now without any evaluation of 'deep or not. I am not sure that bliss is a term that fits my perspective. Both forms of meditation are subjectively enjoyable but in different ways. It is the differences that I am hoping to discover as i continue to practice. I am the last person to go to for meditation advice my brother! I am a one step up from shitting in my own diaper baby with meditation. (But as a factor of comfort, that upgrade makes all the difference in the world!0 I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
And right on cue, the two Robin cultists try to bring him up to derail yet another pleasant discussion. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting. I guess they don't call them 'BLISS NINNIES' for nothing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 7:13 AM, Share Long wrote: I agree, Richard that what's needed is to study these different brain states in a scientific way. For one thing, to counter the flood of New Age beliefs that we now deal with in addition to the old age beliefs! That's what I'm saying! A lot of the New Age beliefs, like it's better to be filter free, are actually in reaction to the old age when people were so enslaved by religious beliefs. For example, I think patients do better in surgery when they believe in a positive outcome. So in that situation, a filter is good. That's what drives me to distraction when the informants here try to discredit the science, and then turn around a 180 and try to convince me that their beliefs are more rational than my beliefs. I don't believe in levitation or reincarnation, or that anyone could fill a whole room with golden light, or that Chi Gung isn't Kung Fu. It's just a word game - an endless circular loop. Reductio ad absurdum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum So, I simply think that meditation is what intelligent people do. I do believe in karma: what life does to you and what you do back. I'm open to the idea that thoughts can cause change at will, but it has not been proven by science. Like Randi, I've never seen anyone levitate for real and so making such a claim is counter-productive and absurd. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : And right on cue, the two Robin cultists try to bring him up to derail yet another pleasant discussion. I have yet to experience anything about you, Bawee, that is pleasant. Don't kid yourself. From: awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Curtis didn't mean me, as it turns out. (I had thought by previous poster he meant someone not involved in the current discussion.) However, I'd been nagging Curtis about not calling Barry on his abusive behavior (as opposed to his perspective) long before Robin ever showed up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:13 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. Curtis is probably alluding to me - I'm the informant that wants answers about the human levitation without obvious physical means of support. Also, I'd like answers to a reincarnating soul monad claim by an avowed atheist, and why MMY would have anything to do with an individual transcending or not. So many questions - so few answers. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:14 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. According to my beliefs, only a God could levitate in front of a crowd of people over a hundred times, and then die to be reborn as a Zen Master up in Tibet. That's just my beliefs. Go figure. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
By abusive behavior, I include lying, as Barry does below. I hadn't mentioned Robin when Barry made this post and did so only after Ann did, to exclude Robin. Ann wasn't aware that Curtis's refusal to criticize Barry's behavior was a longstanding bone of contention between us. And she wasn't trying to bring him up to derail another pleasant discussion anyway. The discussion in question was hardly pleasant (see below), and Ann was simply trying to clarify who Curtis might have meant by previous poster. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : And right on cue, the two Robin cultists try to bring him up to derail yet another pleasant discussion. From: awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:20 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: Christopher Hitchens would agree with him if Barry were to say such a thing. Hitchens would */NOT/* agree with Barry that Fred Lenz levitated hundreds of times. That's a dumb thing to say and not even include the quote you're referring to. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:45 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. So, it's all about Judy. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:09 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Richard is just a guy who likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said. Richard does what Bawwy does, repeats himself endlessy. The difference is that Ricky doesn't take himself seriously, in fact, he's laughing a himself while he does this. Bawwy, on the other hand, thinks he's shocking and disturbing people with is deep insights and renegade individuality. I'm laughing because MJ didn't seem to realize that the chi in Chi Gung is the pure consciousness in TM. Chi is Sanskrit means consciousness. I don't have to prove anything - all I have to do is point out the obvious self-contradictions to show that his point doesn't even exist beyond a reasonable doubt. LoL! --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:34 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
so how d'ya transcend bliss?
On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM
From: Michael Jackson
mjackso...@yahoo.com
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2,
2014 5:01 PM
Subject: Re:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive
deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some
shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss
I feel after a little while and then get up and go do
something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so
its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets
tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that
Curtis?
I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider
bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as
relying on subjective experience as one's standard for
what constitutes truth or reality or providing
value.
In many spiritual traditions bliss is
considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never
get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the
lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend
bliss and get to something more interesting.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Ann, I'd say that many people who are blissed out are simply running too much energy in the upper parts of the body. They could bring it down and ground themselves simply by stomping their feet a few times! Someday, we'll be able to measure all this maybe. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:31 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting. I guess they don't call them 'BLISS NINNIES' for nothing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. Don't rely on buzzwords, Share. Define those terms. Start with most healthy way and continue on to optimally conducive to life. We'll wait. And continue waiting. :-) On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:34 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
And I find int interesting that some traditions associate bliss w/ lower astral
realms when Marshy put such emphasis on the bliss of the Absolute and all that
jazz
On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM
From: Michael Jackson
mjackso...@yahoo.com
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2,
2014 5:01 PM
Subject: Re:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive
deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some
shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss
I feel after a little while and then get up and go do
something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so
its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets
tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that
Curtis?
I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider
bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as
relying on subjective experience as one's standard for
what constitutes truth or reality or providing
value.
In many spiritual traditions bliss is
considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never
get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the
lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend
bliss and get to something more interesting.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
so how d'ya transcend bliss?
Stop regarding it as something to either value, or hold onto.
Without those value judgments, what does it actually DO for you? Or, and
possibly more important, for people around you?
On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM
From: Michael Jackson
mjackso...@yahoo.com
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2,
2014 5:01 PM
Subject: Re:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive
deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some
shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss
I feel after a little while and then get up and go do
something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so
its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets
tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that
Curtis?
I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider
bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as
relying on subjective experience as one's standard for
what constitutes truth or reality or providing
value.
In many spiritual traditions bliss is
considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never
get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the
lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend
bliss and get to something more interesting.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, for most healthy way I'd go with the parameters that doctors use such as specific blood pressure, heart rate, etc. For the brain, I'd use parameters that neuroscientists use such as certain brain wave frequency, etc. I don't think these parameters are completely developed, but they're a start. On Friday, May 2, 2014 11:48 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. Don't rely on buzzwords, Share. Define those terms. Start with most healthy way and continue on to optimally conducive to life. We'll wait. And continue waiting. :-) On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:34 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:20 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. These are excellent points from Curtis and Barry. The problem is that both Buddhism and Hinduism teach that there's no reality to the material world, it's a false, momentary illusion. If so, and there's no transcendental, then you're left with what - no material world and no transcendental field - nothing. I'm not sure if nihilism is where you want to go. If there's nothing and no self and no Self, then there's just emptiness, how are you going to reincarnate and with what and where? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:20 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. This is where discussion gets really tricky - /where exactly is the *spirit* in *spirituality*?/ Is it in the object of perception, perception itself, or in the object, or is it separate from these? The tern spiritual implies a spirit, somewhere. Otherwise, you're just talking in circles. Is there a spiritual path with no spirit? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 11:47 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. Don't rely on buzzwords, Share. Define those terms. Start with most healthy way and continue on to optimally conducive to life. We'll wait. And continue waiting. :-) You first, define spiritual. We'll wait. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
TM practice starts to create higher alpha-1 (slower range of alpha band) EEG coherence in the part of the brain that most scientists agree is important for our sense of self. In the long-term, TM practice, alternated with normal activity, starts to create a situation where teh EEG signature of TM starts to be found more strongly outside of TM. Given teh above, is it rocket science to say that TM practice spontaneously strengthens sense of self outside of TM practice? It is certainly the case that TM practice creates a situation where alpha-1 EEG coherence in he part of the brain that most scientists agree is important for our sense of self becomes higher than before. It is certainly the case that many people interpret whatever internal discussable experience associated with this alpha-1 EEG coherence happens to arise in terms of self. In fact, about 20 years ago or so, a psychologist published a paper on 6 of his patients who had been practicing TM for beteen 1.5 and 20 years, who all complained of some kind of permanent uninvolved self. The fact that they had no psychological compliant other than a concern about how weird it was to have a self that didn't do anything, led the psychologist to call for a reinterpretation of depersonalization. In teh DSM-IV, they ended up adding a spiritual practices exemption for people who practiced TM and other forms of meditation: if they were having some kind of depersonalization/dissociative state that had no pathology and appeared to result from meditation practice, they didn't have dissociative disorder. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Different meditation practices create different situations in the brain. Most meditation practices other than TM create a situation where the connection between the self-centers and the rest of teh brain becomes less, rather than more, during meditation practice. http://www.amaye.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/med-connectivity-EEG-tomog.pdf http://www.amaye.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/med-connectivity-EEG-tomog.pdf In fact, the authors specifically suggest that this may be why many spiritual traditions talk in terms of destroying or reducing self: In experienced meditators (13 Tibetan Buddhists, 15 QiGong, 14 Sahaja Yoga, 14 Ananda Marga Yoga, 15 Zen), 19-channel EEG was recorded before, during and after that meditation exercise which their respective tradition regards as route to the most desirable meditative state ... Conventional coherence between the original head surface EEG time series very predominantly also showed reduced coherence during meditation. ... The globally reduced functional interdependence between brain regions in meditation suggests that interaction between the self process functions is minimized, and that constraints on the self process by other processes are minimized, thereby leading to the subjective experience of non-involvement, detachment and letting go, as well as of all-oneness and dissolution of ego borders during meditation. On the other hand, Fred Travis and Alaric Arenander have both talked to the above researchers, and they are now doing several studies specifically on TM. The first of them is to redo the above study but using experienced TMers instead of people experienced in other meditation practices. That should be published later this year, I think. Since TM researchers are excited about the study, I think it is safe to assume that TM has a different physical effect that the effect documented in the first study using non-TM. By the way, in case you haven't watched it, this video by Alaric Arenander (part of his promotion of his new EEG and TM course) gives a very good feel for what might be an explanation for GC and UC in terms of EEG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_b-LS6SzQlist=UU0iwNoV7Sptxi1qqWz_R9IA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_b-LS6SzQlist=UU0iwNoV7Sptxi1qqWz_R9IA In the first parts of teh video, first, you see alpha-1 EEG coherence during TM practice between 2 leads in the front, representative of increased EEG coherence in the self-centers. Later, you see EEG coherence bouncing up and down between two leads in the back, what Alaric calls the world [represented in the brain]. Then, you see EEG coherence bouncing up and down between two leads: front back: left front back: right, indicating that the integration between the front of the brain and back of the brain (self and world as Alaric puts it) is becoming more integrated. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that his is a signature of growing GC, when it appears outside of meditation: you are starting to perceive more and more subtle aspects of the world, simply because there is a quiet background upon which the world is projected. In the last 5-6 minutes of the video, you see the before/after EEG coherence of someone who has been on the Invincible America course, doing TM and the TM-SIdhis 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 2 years or so. It is only the coherence in the frontal lobes that is shown, but unless Alaric tells me differently, I assume it applies to the other leads as well: not only is alpha-1 EEG *extremely* coherent during TM, but beta and gama are showing much higher EEG coherence than in the before picture. If this pattern holds for the other leads, you could say that all electrical activity in the brain is harmonic fluctuations of alpha-1 EEG, so that in a physical way, perception of reality IS fluctuations of pure consciousness and it is conceivable that Unity Consciousness is simply where this situation becomes so pronounced that the meditator becomes aware of it without having to look at an EEG trace: it is there own default way of looking at the world. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote: From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Maharishi himself admits that 7 states of consciousness is anartificial way of looking at growth towards enlightenment. However it is convenient, and in my previous post, I pointed out how growth in EEG coherence in the meditator might parallel Maharishi's artificial categories to some extent. One thing I left out is that within 1 year of TM practice, alpha-1 EEG coherence between all leads, not just the front ones like teh video shows, starts to get very high. There's still plenty of room for growth between 0.9 and 0.99 coherence, and that continues to grow indefinitely for the rest of the meditator's life. it is outside of meditation where the most obvious changes in alpha-1 EEG coherence take place, as most people have relatively low alpha-1 when they are doing things, but people reporting stabilized pure consciousness during waking, dreaming and sleeping show much higher levels of alpha-1 EEG coherence in the frontal lobes, approaching what is found during TM in 1-year meditators. So, even though global EEG coherence in all frequencies starts to show up relatively quickly during TM, it takes a long time for that to happen outside of TM. And HOW the higher EEG coherence appears in each frequency probably varies a bit from individual to individual, though the beginnings of a broad pattern is already obvious: During meditation, first alpha1 EEG coherence in teh areas responsible for sense of self starts to become greater. Then alpha1 EEG coherence between teh self-centers and teh rest of teh brain becomes greater. At the same time, I would suspect, EEG coherence in all frequencies in all areas of the brain is becoming greater, but I bet it tends to appear first in the frontal lobes, just as it did for alpha 1. Growth in EEG coherence outside of meditation probably mirrors how it occurs during TM, so the broad CC/GC/UC pattern is broadly accurate, but with individuals varying all over the place, even well outside the official average pattern that MMY called CC = GC = UC. Of course, the above only applies to TM or something else that induces the same kind of pattern during meditation as TM does. Some studies on Zen and Ch'an suggest the same kind of pattern, but it is very uneven in the scientific literature, presumably because Zen and Ch'an meditation teachers aren't as consistently trained as TM teachers. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelong60@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote: From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Are you saying that TM is a technique? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Richard, belly flop is a really good analogy imo. And I also agree with you that everyone transcends even without a technique. I know you've said it before, but this time it hit me just right. Thanks. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:00 AM, Richard J. Williams punditster@... wrote: On 5/2/2014 6:47 AM, Share Long wrote: Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. According to MMY, TM is based on thinking - anyone who can think can meditate. So, everyone is already meditating to a certain degree. According to Charles Lutes, meditation means to think, and transcend means to go beyond thinking. The idea is to experience subtler states of awareness, free from distracting thoughts. Most people remain on the gross surface level of thinking - they don't dive very deep within very much at all. TM and other techniques provide a more direct angle for the diving. Everyday conscious thinking is more like a belly flop into a pool, which gets them into the water, but at the same time causes waves all around - compared to using a technique to dive deep into the water without disturbing everyone around them. Both get you into the water, but sometimes a belly flop can be quite stressful and cause you to think you're a klutz - when that happens it can be disconcerting. meditation –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Nope, L, I'm saying belly flopping a technique (-: On Friday, May 2, 2014 7:25 PM, lengli...@cox.net lengli...@cox.net wrote: Are you saying that TM is a technique? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Richard, belly flop is a really good analogy imo. And I also agree with you that everyone transcends even without a technique. I know you've said it before, but this time it hit me just right. Thanks. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:00 AM, Richard J. Williams punditster@... wrote: On 5/2/2014 6:47 AM, Share Long wrote: Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. According to MMY, TM is based on thinking - anyone who can think can meditate. So, everyone is already meditating to a certain degree. According to Charles Lutes, meditation means to think, and transcend means to go beyond thinking. The idea is to experience subtler states of awareness, free from distracting thoughts. Most people remain on the gross surface level of thinking - they don't dive very deep within very much at all. TM and other techniques provide a more direct angle for the diving. Everyday conscious thinking is more like a belly flop into a pool, which gets them into the water, but at the same time causes waves all around - compared to using a technique to dive deep into the water without disturbing everyone around them. Both get you into the water, but sometimes a belly flop can be quite stressful and cause you to think you're a klutz - when that happens it can be disconcerting. meditation –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
[Absolute] Bliss [Consciousness] isn't blissful -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Different traditions say different things. Do you REALLY think that MMY made up his discussion of bliss and so on? They are very much taken from his guru's expositions of the same, as far as I know, using updated terminology and geared for talking to Westerners. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And I find int interesting that some traditions associate bliss w/ lower astral realms when Marshy put such emphasis on the bliss of the Absolute and all that jazz On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com; FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
That is true. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 7:25 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: Are you saying that TM is a technique? A technique is something you do. The ability to dive is a technique. The practice of TM is a technique. The result of diving is immersion. The result of TM is samadhi. In the yoga tradition, it is the eighth and final limb identified in the Yoga Sutras of Patañjali. Samadhi is a state of beingness. Samadhi is like an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience. Samadhi is based on attention and memory. According to Nisargadatta Maharaj, When you say you sit for meditation, the first thing to be done is understand that it is not this body identification that is sitting for meditation, but this knowledge ‘I am’, this consciousness, which is sitting in meditation and is meditating on itself. When this is finally understood, then it becomes easy. When this consciousness, this conscious presence, merges in itself, the state of ‘Samadhi’ ensues. It is the conceptual feeling that I exist that disappears and merges into the beingness itself. http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/nisargadatta_quotes_from_ultimate_medicine.php --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 7:28 PM, Share Long wrote: Nope, L, I'm saying belly flopping a technique (-: Diving is a technique to go deep into the water - a belly flop is a technique, but it is just a splash on the surface of the water. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I love these things that sound like 'designer', meditations or designer martial
arts techniques.
Our special tonight is shikantaza meditation, which we will do while sitting
in a modified Cheyenne sweat lodge, which has been purified and smoked with a
sandalwood reduction incense which has been placed on hexagonal charcoal base
from a banyan tree in central Tibet.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have
been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I
feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss
starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss
gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams punditster@... mailto:punditster@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
for
itself. Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:54 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: That is true. Or, barging into a conversation with claims that his teacher levitated hundreds of times, as if that would prove that he is what, more spiritual than others? You can't prove a non-existent, but you can prove something exists, or not. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. What happens when people get older and wiser? Do you think that happens? I would say it does often happen. It sure happened to my Dad, and actually many if not most older people.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: so how d'ya transcend bliss? Stop regarding it as something to either value, or hold onto. Without those value judgments, what does it actually DO for you? Or, and possibly more important, for people around you? Ninnies.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
TM isn't even a technique, but simply a strategy that hopefully is absorbed by the meditator after sitting in on the TM course for the requisite number of days. I came up with a different way of putting it recently: The TM class is a 4-day long koan, that is hopefully going to clarify the nonsensical phrase think a mantra effortlessly L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 7:25 PM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote: Are you saying that TM is a technique? A technique is something you do. The ability to dive is a technique. The practice of TM is a technique. The result of diving is immersion. The result of TM is samadhi. In the yoga tradition, it is the eighth and final limb identified in the Yoga Sutras of Patañjali. Samadhi is a state of beingness. Samadhi is like an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience. Samadhi is based on attention and memory. According to Nisargadatta Maharaj, When you say you sit for meditation, the first thing to be done is understand that it is not this body identification that is sitting for meditation, but this knowledge ‘I am’, this consciousness, which is sitting in meditation and is meditating on itself. When this is finally understood, then it becomes easy. When this consciousness, this conscious presence, merges in itself, the state of ‘Samadhi’ ensues. It is the conceptual feeling that I exist that disappears and merges into the beingness itself. http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/nisargadatta_quotes_from_ultimate_medicine.php http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/nisargadatta_quotes_from_ultimate_medicine.php --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 2:22 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote: The siddhis pretty much killed it for most rational people. Apparently you thought it was a good idea since you continued to publicize the human flying for years after you left the TMO, to the point that you claimed you had actually seen Rama levitate hundreds of times. So, if you guys were lying for all those years and selling the snake oil for money, why would anyone believe anything you say now? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 2:22 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Yup. And many are catching the non-religious meditation wave thanks to the secularization of mindfulness techniques. Maybe Barry needs to be reminded that Buddhism is a religion with it's own beliefs in celestial Buddhas. Barry seems to be one of the few who think Buddhism supports atheism. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Richard, sense of self vanishing and having greater well being sounds like what happens during TM! On Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:10 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Just sitting and noticing. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 7:48 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: Only to a Marshy/Benjy Creme sycophant like you Nabster - Curtis comes across as pretty rational and balanced to people not wearing a My-Guru-Makes-Me-Special blinders. What you need to realize is that Curtis and Barry sold the names of the Hindu gods for money and THEN they did a 180 */after twenty years/* - so why would anything they say now be taken as rational? According to Sam Harris, if a person declares a belief in something like human levitation, this alone should immediately make their every statement suspect in the eyes of anyone they are dialoging with - because asserting a similarly non-evidentiary point on a religious doctrine ought to be met with similar disrespect. Which is not to say they aren't nice people and talented, but even common sense would dictate that they be questioned closely concerning their own beliefs. Which is not to say that you aren't a nice person and talented, but you are acting like a True Believer yourself, if for no other reason than you are practicing a Chinese Kung Fu religion for two years and sucking up to Curtis and Barry now. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 8:04 PM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com wrote: I am writing a journalism in this particular thread for an audience who are looking in to where it [TM] is at now. There seems to be only one person on this list, Lawson, that has been keeping up with the scientific studies done on TMer meditators or Hindu and Buddhist meditations, and it's not Curtis, Barry, or Sally. If anyone gets around to reading Sam Harris, they will know that he wants to incorporate spirituality in the domain of human reason and that he draws inspiration from the practices of Eastern religion, in particular that of meditation, as described principally by Hindu and Buddhist practitioners. It's a good thing that Rick brought up the subject of Sam Harris and it would be interesting to ask Harris about how states of mind and consciousness could be subjected to formal scientific investigation, without incorporating the myth and superstition that often accompanies meditation in the religious context. It's obvious that Curtis, Barry and Sally are not up to this task, considering their obvious biases. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 8:18 PM, Share Long wrote: Richard, sense of self vanishing and having greater well being sounds like what happens during TM! That's because mindfullness training is just like TM practice, Share, and has the same goals - mental and physical well-being. TM practice is essentially Buddhist yoga. It's a lot easier to understand when you realize that meditation is just thinking things over in your conscious mind. It's not complicated. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:10 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 8:30 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Just sitting and noticing. Thanks for digging that up. Don't just do something, sit there. Now, about that Rama levitation event. LoL! --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
