Re: [FairfieldLife] The dangers of pseudo-Advaita
Bad link --- yifuxero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: from http://www.angelfire.com BELOW THE INTRODUCTION FROM A PAPER BY AZIZ KRISTOF Although not always thought so as such, Advaita actually falls under the auspices of the three main branches of VEDANTA: Dvaita Vedanta - the dualistic approach Advaita Vedanta - the non-dualistic approach Kevala Advaita Vedanta - the pure non-dualistic school. The main exponent of Vedanta was the great sage Adi Sankara who was an adept of the Kevala Advaita Vedanta path. In western circles it is not unusual to blend the last two together as well as interposing the words Advaita and Vedanta as having the same meaning, becoming in a sense euphemisms of themselves (satsang is often included as well). Generally speaking it works OK, but when fine tuning the specifics then a more indepth process is usually required. (source). Jerry Katz, in a further clarification, in his Nonduality FAQ website, presents the following as well: Advaita means nonduality. Vedanta means end of the Veda. The Vedas, the most ancient texts of Indian literature, are books on mythology and sacrifice. Their origins are superhuman, their authority divine, the Orthodox believe. The end of the Veda marked the coming of the Upanishads, which are books on the nondual nature of reality, but which offer different levels of nondual understanding, and have even given rise dualism, which says that God and the human body are eternally separate. Providing the Introduction: the Wanderling -- -- The Dangers of Pseudo Advaita now proceeds: We would like to express our concern regarding the recent phenomenon of 'satsang-culture' which in our opinion has impoverished seriously the Orignial Spirit of Advaita. These days many individuals, who have very little or no knowledge at all about the Process of Awakening, feel qualified to give satsang and lead other souls on the Path. Enlightenment has become very cheap these days. Nobody actually really knows what is the meaning of this term as it virtually means everything and nothing. Nowadays, it is sufficient to say 'I am Awakened' in order to give satsang. Because of the unverifiable nature of Enlightenment, this term has been much manipulated. Satsang has been Americanized. In an average satsang-gathering everybody is laughing, showing signs of euphoric and unauthentic joy, while the teacher tries to look like he or she is in a bliss. Just like a TV show. Very few actually meditate. Why to meditate if we are already all Awakened? But Is this really Advaita? Is Advaita a poor repetition of a several slogans like 'There is nobody there,' 'You are That,' You are already Awakened' or 'There is no Path', etc.? Has this anything to do with teaching of great masters like N. Maharaj or Sri Ramana Maharishi? Ramana sat in caves for 20 years before he could be really complete. In his presence disciples had to meditate for months and years before they could receive from him the glimpse of the Self. It is true that New Millennium is a time of global awakening. But this awakening is mostly partial and relative to the level of most people's unconsciousness. It was Jesus who said that there would be a time when many false teachers will teach in the name of Light. It seems to be happening now. Many of these teachers are not necessarily 'bad people' but simply unqualified and lost, in truth. They have believed too quickly in the thought 'I am now ready to teach!' It seems that the pauper-isation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their 'Awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already Awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of Awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. By the endless investigation into states of all possible masters, and not being able to come to any true conclusion, he has been just confusing his students. The only thing
[FairfieldLife] The dangers of pseudo-Advaita
from http://www.angelfire.com BELOW THE INTRODUCTION FROM A PAPER BY AZIZ KRISTOF Although not always thought so as such, Advaita actually falls under the auspices of the three main branches of VEDANTA: Dvaita Vedanta - the dualistic approach Advaita Vedanta - the non-dualistic approach Kevala Advaita Vedanta - the pure non-dualistic school. The main exponent of Vedanta was the great sage Adi Sankara who was an adept of the Kevala Advaita Vedanta path. In western circles it is not unusual to blend the last two together as well as interposing the words Advaita and Vedanta as having the same meaning, becoming in a sense euphemisms of themselves (satsang is often included as well). Generally speaking it works OK, but when fine tuning the specifics then a more indepth process is usually required. (source). Jerry Katz, in a further clarification, in his Nonduality FAQ website, presents the following as well: Advaita means nonduality. Vedanta means end of the Veda. The Vedas, the most ancient texts of Indian literature, are books on mythology and sacrifice. Their origins are superhuman, their authority divine, the Orthodox believe. The end of the Veda marked the coming of the Upanishads, which are books on the nondual nature of reality, but which offer different levels of nondual understanding, and have even given rise dualism, which says that God and the human body are eternally separate. Providing the Introduction: the Wanderling -- -- The Dangers of Pseudo Advaita now proceeds: We would like to express our concern regarding the recent phenomenon of 'satsang-culture' which in our opinion has impoverished seriously the Orignial Spirit of Advaita. These days many individuals, who have very little or no knowledge at all about the Process of Awakening, feel qualified to give satsang and lead other souls on the Path. Enlightenment has become very cheap these days. Nobody actually really knows what is the meaning of this term as it virtually means everything and nothing. Nowadays, it is sufficient to say 'I am Awakened' in order to give satsang. Because of the unverifiable nature of Enlightenment, this term has been much manipulated. Satsang has been Americanized. In an average satsang-gathering everybody is laughing, showing signs of euphoric and unauthentic joy, while the teacher tries to look like he or she is in a bliss. Just like a TV show. Very few actually meditate. Why to meditate if we are already all Awakened? But Is this really Advaita? Is Advaita a poor repetition of a several slogans like 'There is nobody there,' 'You are That,' You are already Awakened' or 'There is no Path', etc.? Has this anything to do with teaching of great masters like N. Maharaj or Sri Ramana Maharishi? Ramana sat in caves for 20 years before he could be really complete. In his presence disciples had to meditate for months and years before they could receive from him the glimpse of the Self. It is true that New Millennium is a time of global awakening. But this awakening is mostly partial and relative to the level of most people's unconsciousness. It was Jesus who said that there would be a time when many false teachers will teach in the name of Light. It seems to be happening now. Many of these teachers are not necessarily 'bad people' but simply unqualified and lost, in truth. They have believed too quickly in the thought 'I am now ready to teach!' It seems that the pauper-isation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their 'Awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already Awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of Awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. By the endless investigation into states of all possible masters, and not being able to come to any true conclusion, he has been just confusing his students. The only thing which at the end remains clear from his seemingly 'sincere' efforts to find clarity is that nobody has the least idea 'What Enlightenment Is!' It is not our intention to suggest that nobody reaches Enlightenment. We just wish
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ... I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the gradual school perspective: dying the cloth, etc. I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and contact the Absolute. So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of us to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being structured in consciousness. The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ... I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the gradual school perspective: dying the cloth, etc. I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and contact the Absolute. So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of us to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being structured in consciousness. The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. You don't have to respond, but I still don't get your point! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ... I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the gradual school perspective: dying the cloth, etc. I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and contact the Absolute. So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of us to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being structured in consciousness. The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. You don't have to respond, but I still don't get your point! Thanks- I don't think it is worth pursuing. I am probably trying to clean glass with a dirty rag as it were. I *do* get your point, and agree... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and contact the Absolute. So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of us to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being structured in consciousness. The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. if a person cannot tell when they have ceased being totally at the mercy of their past actions, memories, tendencies or whatever then screw them. there are a good number of people that experience lights, sounds and all other Yogic stuff and are basically quite fu*ked up. the term liberation' might be better a description of the outcome of completely letting go rather than enlightenment. i thought the object is to become free and not get caught up in endless courses, programs, techniques and other nonsence. Someone mentioned Taoist texts awhile ago. Wasn't it Chuang Tzu that pointed out the absurdity of the various later developments in Taoist breathing, meditational and alchemy pursuits? This is what TM has become. A lot of horsecrap. What happened to capture the fort? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and contact the Absolute. So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of us to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being structured in consciousness. The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. if a person cannot tell when they have ceased being totally at the mercy of their past actions, memories, tendencies or whatever then screw them. there are a good number of people that experience lights, sounds and all other Yogic stuff and are basically quite fu*ked up. the term liberation' might be better a description of the outcome of completely letting go rather than enlightenment. i thought the object is to become free and not get caught up in endless courses, programs, techniques and other nonsence. Someone mentioned Taoist texts awhile ago. Wasn't it Chuang Tzu that pointed out the absurdity of the various later developments in Taoist breathing, meditational and alchemy pursuits? This is what TM has become. A lot of horsecrap. What happened to capture the fort? That was Zen; this is Tao. The movement decided that it was more in tune with Natural Law to buy the fort than to capture it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
That was Zen; this is Tao. The movement decided that it was more in tune with Natural Law to buy the fort than to capture it. now, the Fort is only spoken about, loyal followers imply it has been captured, detractors say it will only be purchased, a few people see only an empty useless lot with real estate people from Florida selling it as The Ideal Community to Live in at prices no-one can afford. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That was Zen; this is Tao. The movement decided that it was more in tune with Natural Law to buy the fort than to capture it. now, the Fort is only spoken about, loyal followers imply it has been captured, detractors say it will only be purchased, a few people see only an empty useless lot with real estate people from Florida selling it as The Ideal Community to Live in at prices no-one can afford. A favorite expression of mine by 'The Man' is: The world is as you are; live unbounded awareness. Can't ever quite get past that one... Re your writing above, how could 'loyal followers imply [the fort] has been captured'? If they have really captured the fort, in that context, they may be loyal but they could no longer, by definition, be followers. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
Re your writing above, how could 'loyal followers imply [the fort] has been captured'? If they have really captured the fort, in that context, they may be loyal but they could no longer, by definition, be followers. very good! but those Lions even after looking into the calm clear pool, still bray like the jackasses they associate with. their identity is still unclear. a profilic western interpreter of Zen once commented that Bankei Zenji, an eccentric and insightfull meditator was considered a successfull teacher precisely because he left no successors or followers. people DO get addicted to the medicine prescribed to cure their dis-ease. people DO fall in love with the doctor that intended only to cure their dis-ease. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? No because you just want to start an argument. And life's too short for that. Is not. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- Do nothing, accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has been. Obviously Do nothing, accomplish everything is NOT a philosophy of refraining from action. I believe I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of life in enlightenment. The prescription for how to live is: Established in Yoga, perform action. Curious how Maharishi recognized the problem of the teacher's words coming from his/her consciousness and being (mis)interpreted by his/her adherents' consciousness, yet fell prey to it just the same. I.e. Do nothing, accomplish everything, which is the subjective experience of the objective statement, established in Yoga, perform action. Of course, he also says over and over again, there are two steps of progress: rest and activity. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- Do nothing, accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has been. Obviously Do nothing, accomplish everything is NOT a philosophy of refraining from action. I believe I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of life in enlightenment. If that's how you interpret it, fine. Just for the record, that's how MMY teaches it, not just how I interpret it. But as a DEscription of life in enlightenment it's horseshit, too. IMO, of course. Well, if you ever get to the point of life in enlightenment, let us know what you find, 'K? The prescription for how to live is: Established in Yoga, perform action. Unless that action is Off The Program... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis? You would guess wrong. The phrase was already in vogue in 1967. Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that at first it was just Do less and accomplish more. Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and accomplish everything to be a prescription to refrain from acting? That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no? --and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that Do less and accomplish more had had a double meaning all along. As in doubletalk? :-) As in different meanings in different states of attention. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that at first it was just Do less and accomplish more. Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and accomplish everything to be a prescription to refrain from acting? That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no? Do less and accomplish more would seem to be the standard injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of giving householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from invoking their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in life. That's all this is about, no? I think people read way too much into these things. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis? You would guess wrong. The phrase was already in vogue in 1967. Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that at first it was just Do less and accomplish more. Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and accomplish everything to be a prescription to refrain from acting? Never. HOWEVER, there was a STRONG injunction from the TM movement that certain TYPES of action would not be condoned, if you were to continue to be a TMer or TM teacher in good standing. That included pretty much all forms of psycho- therapy, any techniques taught by other traditions, and went as far as techniques learned from books, INCLUDING such things as self-analysis as has been discussed here. Practices such as monitoring one's thoughts or actions in the sense of mindful- ness practice were definitely considered off the program. Since mindfulness IS the 'action' I now feel is necessary to fully realize enlightenment, I guess you'd have to say that Yes, I believe that there was a strong injunction to refrain from action. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ... I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the gradual school perspective: dying the cloth, etc.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that at first it was just Do less and accomplish more. Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and accomplish everything to be a prescription to refrain from acting? That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no? Do less and accomplish more would seem to be the standard injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of giving householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from invoking their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in life. That's all this is about, no? I think people read way too much into these things. I'd say you're correct about Do less and accomplish more. On its own terms, it has a clear, uncomplicated relative meaning. But Do nothing and accomplish everything is obviously *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it as a corollary to Do less and accomplish more, the latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. Now it refers to the experience of increasing identification with the Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the Non-Doer, the greater the sense that I [the Self] do not act at all. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and accomplish everything to be a prescription to refrain from acting? Never. HOWEVER, there was a STRONG injunction from the TM movement that certain TYPES of action would not be condoned, if you were to continue to be a TMer or TM teacher in good standing. OK, so you understand Do nothing and accomplish everything to mean Don't do A, B, or C if you want to continue to be a TMer or TM teacher in 'good standing.' But not even that has anything to do with what MMY means by Do nothing and accomplish everything. It isn't any kind of injunction; it isn't (as you had claimed) a philosophy. It's a simply a description (as I said) of what one is said to experience in enlightenment, i.e., the constant experience of and identification with the Self as the Non-Doer, while all the accomplishing is done by the gunas. I've never encountered any TMer who has understood it any other way, except you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
I think do nothing merely refers to the fact that the enlightened experience in a very real sense that they (the Self) are doing nothing. The body and all the other faculties may be working hard, as Maharishi always did, but there is the constant sense that I am not doing anything, in fact, I am not even here. This is more elightenment gibberish. The experience of a still center within might be interesting and different compared to other experiences but so what? Unless such an experience makes a measurable positive difference then its just more stuff. I am not here is an equally absurd declaration. Calling all descriptions and fictions about oneself and/or ones life not here should be obvious even to the average Joe. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ... I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the gradual school perspective: dying the cloth, etc.. I'll see if I can find the reference. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I
couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that
at first it was just Do less and accomplish more.
Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and
accomplish everything to be a prescription to
refrain from acting?
That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no?
Do less and accomplish more would seem to be the standard
injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a
householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of giving
householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from invoking
their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in life. That's
all this is about, no? I think people read way too much into these
things.
I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967,
like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to
the former. M. would say Do less accomplish more. then pause, and
then say, drawing it out a bit Do () nothing ... and accomplish
... Every . Thing! It always got a big laugh.
Many catch phrases that M. used had 2-3 levels of meaning. For
example, Knowledge is Structured in Consciousness. The liviness of
meaning on multiple levels is what made these phrases good one liners,
funny, insightful. But not all levels of meaning were literal.
I'd say you're correct about Do less and accomplish
more. On its own terms, it has a clear, uncomplicated
relative meaning.
The primary meaning of Do less and accomplish more per my take,
historically in hearing it live many times, was in relationship to the
bow and arrow analogy. A la .. 'We do a bit less, we take 20 min 2x,
to refresh the mind, etc. Though counter-intuitive, and sounding
paradoxical to stop action in order to achieve more, in practice it
actually works, we draw the arrow back, in the opposite direction of
achievement, and then let it go. We actually acheive more. Thus, we
do less (take a break from activity and yet accomplish more (due to
the deep rest, clarity or mind, etc.)'
Subtler, seconday meanings, relate to the mind settling down ('doing
less', not in the sense that TM is doing, but in the sense of the
mind's activity becoming less. In that more subtle state of mind
funcioning, we gain more -- more happiness, clarity, etc.
But Do nothing and accomplish everything is obviously
*not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it
as a corollary to Do less and accomplish more, the
latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. Now it refers
to the experience of increasing identification with the
Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the
Non-Doer, the greater the sense that I [the Self] do
not act at all.
To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make that
a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning.
My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh
getter, for Do less and accomplish more. In that vein, it was not
meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. It
was funny because one knew M was NOT advocating meditate and then do
nothing. Its power was tied to the scondary meaning below.
Secondary meanings, which make it a rich and witty phrase, include
the capture the fort idea: do nothing, that is transcend the field of
activity and accomplish everything by capturing the fort, or
highest first.
A third level of meaning is what Judy suggests, and adds to the
multi-dimensional sparkle of the phrase. But to be honest, in hearing
M say it live many times, I did not, and most others it appeared to me
-- from the group vibe and laugh -- seem much focussed on this third
level of meaning.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] But not even that has anything to do with what MMY means by Do nothing and accomplish everything. It isn't any kind of injunction; it isn't (as you had claimed) a philosophy. That is true. It's a simply a description (as I said) of what one is said to experience in enlightenment, i.e., the constant experience of and identification with the Self as the Non-Doer, while all the accomplishing is done by the gunas. I've never encountered any TMer who has understood it any other way, except you. Well, include me in the list who did not have your take (Judy's) as the primary meaning of the phrase (see adjacent post). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I
couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that
at first it was just Do less and accomplish more.
Back in 1967, did you understand Do nothing and
accomplish everything to be a prescription to
refrain from acting?
That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no?
Do less and accomplish more would seem to be the standard
injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a
householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of
giving householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from
invoking their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in
life. That's all this is about, no? I think people read way too
much into these things.
I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967,
like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to
the former. M. would say Do less accomplish more. then pause, and
then say, drawing it out a bit Do () nothing ... and accomplish
... Every . Thing! It always got a big laugh.
Many catch phrases that M. used had 2-3 levels of meaning. For
example, Knowledge is Structured in Consciousness.
Or Reincarnation is for the ignorant.
The liviness of
meaning on multiple levels is what made these phrases good one
liners, funny, insightful. But not all levels of meaning were
literal.
I'd say you're correct about Do less and accomplish
more. On its own terms, it has a clear, uncomplicated
relative meaning.
The primary meaning of Do less and accomplish more per my take,
historically in hearing it live many times, was in relationship to
the bow and arrow analogy. A la .. 'We do a bit less, we take 20
min 2x, to refresh the mind, etc. Though counter-intuitive, and
sounding paradoxical to stop action in order to achieve more, in
practice it actually works, we draw the arrow back, in the opposite
direction of achievement, and then let it go. We actually acheive
more. Thus, we do less (take a break from activity and yet
accomplish more (due to the deep rest, clarity or mind, etc.)'
Sure. I don't think that's incompatible with Vaj's take,
though, just more subtle, more abstractly expressed.
Subtler, seconday meanings, relate to the mind settling down ('doing
less', not in the sense that TM is doing, but in the sense of the
mind's activity becoming less. In that more subtle state of mind
funcioning, we gain more -- more happiness, clarity, etc.
But Do nothing and accomplish everything is obviously
*not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it
as a corollary to Do less and accomplish more, the
latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. Now it refers
to the experience of increasing identification with the
Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the
Non-Doer, the greater the sense that I [the Self] do
not act at all.
To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make
that a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning.
My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh
getter, for Do less and accomplish more.
Yup. But I'd say it was so funny because it instantly
changed the meaning of Do less and accomplish more,
or instantly added a whole new level of meaning to it.
In that vein, it was not
meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. It
was funny because one knew M was NOT advocating meditate and then
do nothing. Its power was tied to the scondary meaning below.
Right.
Secondary meanings, which make it a rich and witty phrase, include
the capture the fort idea: do nothing, that is transcend the field
of activity and accomplish everything by capturing the fort, or
highest first.
Yup.
A third level of meaning is what Judy suggests, and adds to the
multi-dimensional sparkle of the phrase. But to be honest, in
hearing M say it live many times, I did not, and most others it
appeared to me -- from the group vibe and laugh -- seem much
focussed on this third level of meaning.
Well, it's been the understanding of most TMers
in *my* experience, although they also appreciated
the other levels. Maybe it depends on the degree of
one's familiarity with I do not act at all from the
Gita and MMY's analysis thereof.
In any case, you confirm my main point, which is
that neither phrase means Do not engage in action,
on *any* level (including Do not engage in A, B,
and C). That would be an absurd misinterpretation,
given the number of genuine injunctions, PREscriptions
for action, such as Meditate and act, and the
unequivocal assertion by Krishna in the Gita that it's
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never encountered any TMer who has understood it any other way, except you. As we have established in the past, your experience in the TMO is fairly limited. :-) If you're hoping for an argument, you're not going to get one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967, like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to the former. M. would say Do less accomplish more. then pause, and then say, drawing it out a bit Do () nothing ... and accomplish ... Every . Thing! It always got a big laugh. Exactly. But Do nothing and accomplish everything is obviously *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it as a corollary to Do less and accomplish more, the latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. Now it refers to the experience of increasing identification with the Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the Non-Doer, the greater the sense that I [the Self] do not act at all. To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make that a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning. Exactly again. My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh getter, for Do less and accomplish more. In that vein, it was not meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/5/05 11:52 AM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Actually very close to what has happened: if you do a web search for Do nothing and accomplish everything the phrase is usually tied to get rich quick schemes. Interesting how greed begets greed. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967, like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to the former. M. would say Do less accomplish more. then pause, and then say, drawing it out a bit Do () nothing ... and accomplish ... Every . Thing! It always got a big laugh. Exactly. But Do nothing and accomplish everything is obviously *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it as a corollary to Do less and accomplish more, the latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. Now it refers to the experience of increasing identification with the Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the Non-Doer, the greater the sense that I [the Self] do not act at all. To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make that a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning. Exactly again. Just a reminder: the point is that it does NOT mean that one should refrain from action, or even that one should refrain from certain kinds of action. My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh getter, for Do less and accomplish more. In that vein, it was not meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Funny how MMY sabotaged all that marketing jive with the constant repetition of Meditate and act, eh? Also funny how Krishna anticipated the need to market to all those lazy Westerners with One who is in Union with the Divine and who knows the Truth will maintain, 'I do not act at all,' huh? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/5/05 11:52 AM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Actually very close to what has happened: if you do a web search for Do nothing and accomplish everything the phrase is usually tied to get rich quick schemes. Interesting how greed begets greed. Interesting indeed. I did such a search, and the only thing I could find that even came close to a get-rich- quick scheme was a book by Fred Gratzon called The Lazy Way to Success. But if you investigate the book, you find that it's Gratzon's take on MMY's phrase (he's a TM teacher) and not a get-rich-quick scheme at all. Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. --Franz Kafka Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. --Franz Kafka Great advice if what you want to do is turn into a cockroach. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. --Franz Kafka Great advice if what you want to do is turn into a cockroach. Cute, but no cigar. The amusing thing is that on the one hand, you advocate appreciating the Now instead of making an effort to improve onself; and on the other, when MMY advocates appreciating the Now, all of a sudden exerting effort to improve oneself is the sine qua non. Do you NEVER get tired of trying to turn everything into an argument? You're not going to get one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? No because you just want to start an argument. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? No because you just want to start an argument. And life's too short for that. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
No because you just want to start an argument. And life's too short for that. Tweedledee and Tweedledum agreed to have a fight. Touch football. Roughhousing. Nurf-stick battles. Come on, didn't you see Rama and Ravana wink at each other? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. --Franz Kafka Great advice if what you want to do is turn into a cockroach. Cute, but no cigar. The amusing thing is that on the one hand, you advocate appreciating the Now instead of making an effort to improve onself; and on the other, when MMY advocates appreciating the Now, all of a sudden exerting effort to improve oneself is the sine qua non. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. --Franz Kafka Great advice if what you want to do is turn into a cockroach. Cute, but no cigar. The amusing thing is that on the one hand, you advocate appreciating the Now instead of making an effort to improve onself; and on the other, when MMY advocates appreciating the Now, all of a sudden exerting effort to improve oneself is the sine qua non. Do you NEVER get tired of trying to turn everything into an argument? You're not going to get one. Just an observation, Barry. Relax. Appreciate the Now. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? No because you just want to start an argument. Want to buy a bridge? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? No because you just want to start an argument. And life's too short for that. And besides, there aren't any such links. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana was not only Enlightened, but was the greatest Sage of the 20th century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. Did he leave a body behind when he died? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip WHO is doing this, WHO is doing that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and HWL Poonja. This is our interface with the previous post on just Bbbeellvvee...and Be the Self!). Not so easy, and why? Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out the physiological component!!!. That's why MMY's contribution will be remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : TM as we practice it. HallaleulyaPraise God! I'd be a gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main method; which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY Realized in order to do it. Thus, it - Ramana's method - is rather inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross level like myself. I need something more substantial to get lifted up by the bootstraps; thus TMit works. Never could get anything out of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances. snip I agree on the one hand that the physiological component, as expounded by Maharishi, and obviously central to the practice of TM, is vital to achieve Enlightenment (though not exclusively through TM). I also see, though, that TM, with its road markers identified for TC, CC, GC, and UC, eventually runs the practitioner into a wall. At least with regard to what is actually taught. And the last bit, Self-Inquiry is then necessary to eliminate the final apparent obstacles to Self Realization or Enlightenment. In my experience, I have seen many practitioners of TM, myself included, verify experiences of all of the uncommon 4 states of consciousness, and yet remain either delusional, miserable, or both. So long term TM cultures the physiology so that Enlightenment can be achieved instantaneously, and yet, other than building people's dreams only to intentionally dash them, and by extension, leave them naked to themselves, Maharishi, and his Movement, doesn't speak of the Self-inquiry necessary for Enlightenment. Rather, the emphasis is wholly on uncovering the Self; making the situation ripe for Enlightenment. The missing piece for me, and I suspect many other long time TMers, is the knowledge that a conscious choice must then be made, once the physiology is cultured, to eliminate the obstacles to living the Self, to recognizing the Self as ourselves. And this is done through Self-inquiry. So to say on the one hand, you are Realized; live it, is half the process, just as to practice TM is half the process. Together, there is a solution. Thoughts? Comments? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip WHO is doing this, WHO is doing that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and HWL Poonja. This is our interface with the previous post on just Bbbeellvvee...and Be the Self!). Not so easy, and why? Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out the physiological component!!!. That's why MMY's contribution will be remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : TM as we practice it. HallaleulyaPraise God! I'd be a gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main method; which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY Realized in order to do it. Thus, it - Ramana's method - is rather inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross level like myself. I need something more substantial to get lifted up by the bootstraps; thus TMit works. Never could get anything out of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances. snip I agree on the one hand that the physiological component, as expounded by Maharishi, and obviously central to the practice of TM, is vital to achieve Enlightenment (though not exclusively through TM). I also see, though, that TM, with its road markers identified for TC, CC, GC, and UC, eventually runs the practitioner into a wall. At least with regard to what is actually taught. And the last bit, Self-Inquiry is then necessary to eliminate the final apparent obstacles to Self Realization or Enlightenment. In my experience, I have seen many practitioners of TM, myself included, verify experiences of all of the uncommon 4 states of consciousness, and yet remain either delusional, miserable, or both. So long term TM cultures the physiology so that Enlightenment can be achieved instantaneously, and yet, other than building people's dreams only to intentionally dash them, and by extension, leave them naked to themselves, Maharishi, and his Movement, doesn't speak of the Self-inquiry necessary for Enlightenment. Rather, the emphasis is wholly on uncovering the Self; making the situation ripe for Enlightenment. The missing piece for me, and I suspect many other long time TMers, is the knowledge that a conscious choice must then be made, once the physiology is cultured, to eliminate the obstacles to living the Self, to recognizing the Self as ourselves. And this is done through Self-inquiry. So to say on the one hand, you are Realized; live it, is half the process, just as to practice TM is half the process. Together, there is a solution. Thoughts? Comments? Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- Do nothing, accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has been. Meditation is a good start. Work must be done during the *entire* 23 hours or so that one is *not* practiciing TM to make realization a firm reality. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana was not only Enlightened, but was the greatest Sage of the 20th century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. Did he leave a body behind when he died? Yes, but within hours it turned into a pillar of sandlewood dust, floated into the air and took the shape of an OM. Quite impressive. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/4/05 4:37 PM, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana was not only Enlightened, but was the greatest Sage of the 20th century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. Did he leave a body behind when he died? Yes, but within hours it turned into a pillar of sandlewood dust, floated into the air and took the shape of an OM. Quite impressive. Come on Pete, everyone knows OM is bad for ya... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- Do nothing, accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has been. Obviously Do nothing, accomplish everything is NOT a philosophy of refraining from action. I believe I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of life in enlightenment. The prescription for how to live is: Established in Yoga, perform action. Curious how Maharishi recognized the problem of the teacher's words coming from his/her consciousness and being (mis)interpreted by his/her adherents' consciousness, yet fell prey to it just the same. I.e. Do nothing, accomplish everything, which is the subjective experience of the objective statement, established in Yoga, perform action. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/4/05 4:37 PM, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana was not only Enlightened, but was the greatest Sage of the 20th century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. Did he leave a body behind when he died? Yes, but within hours it turned into a pillar of sandlewood dust, floated into the air and took the shape of an OM. Quite impressive. Come on Pete, everyone knows OM is bad for ya... I see dead people... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- Do nothing, accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has been. Obviously Do nothing, accomplish everything is NOT a philosophy of refraining from action. I believe I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of life in enlightenment. The prescription for how to live is: Established in Yoga, perform action. Curious how Maharishi recognized the problem of the teacher's words coming from his/her consciousness and being (mis)interpreted by his/her adherents' consciousness, yet fell prey to it just the same. I wouldn't say it's curious, I'd say it's inevitable (in fact, I believe that's what *MMY* says). Even on the most basic level, there's no way you can eliminate *all* possibility of misunderstanding (or misrepresentation, for that matter), no matter how crystal- clear you are, any more than you can get around the mistake of the intellect at the level of the nitty- gritty. In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that Do less and accomplish more had had a double meaning all along. But I've never heard *anybody* suggest that either was a prescription for refraining from action, except in the present instance, so I doubt it's a common misunderstanding among TMers, even the rank and file. I.e. Do nothing, accomplish everything, which is the subjective experience of the objective statement, established in Yoga, perform action. Yup yup yup, nicely put. Both aspects are pretty thoroughly explained in MMY's Gita commentary: on one hand, I (the self) am helplessly driven to activity; on the other, I [the Self] do not act at all. That distinction and its ramifications are one of the main themes of the first six chapters of the Gita. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that Do less and accomplish more had had a double meaning all along. But I've never heard *anybody* suggest that either was a prescription for refraining from action, except in the present instance, so I doubt it's a common misunderstanding among TMers, even the rank and file. I dunno- the mood-making had to come from somewhere, and that seems as good a misunderstood expression as any. And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ...(Like when the governators at the TM commune/apple juice farm I worked on in 1981 knew very very little about running a business, and didn't do a lot of work, yet blamed every failure on negativity in the atmosphere. Wow!) One of those True, but... phrases. Anyway, he also said its a waste of time to look for the causes of ignorance, as I recall, so I won't go any further... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
on 10/4/05 7:33 PM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that Do less and accomplish more had had a double meaning all along. I think do nothing merely refers to the fact that the enlightened experience in a very real sense that they (the Self) are doing nothing. The body and all the other faculties may be working hard, as Maharishi always did, but there is the constant sense that I am not doing anything, in fact, I am not even here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that Do less and accomplish more had had a double meaning all along. But I've never heard *anybody* suggest that either was a prescription for refraining from action, except in the present instance, so I doubt it's a common misunderstanding among TMers, even the rank and file. I dunno- the mood-making had to come from somewhere, and that seems as good a misunderstood expression as any. Naah. There is just no basis whatsoever for the idea of *not acting*, and far too much to the contrary. Moodmaking is more likely to come from Take it as it comes, or Don't strain, or Act from your present state of consciousness, or even just Don't do what you think might be wrong. MMY does a very delicate balancing act between the idea of spontaneous right action as a result of transcending, on one hand, and prescriptions for behavior, on the other. But he pretty much leaves it up to the individual to reconcile the two, and different people do it different ways (perhaps even according to their current state of consciousness). And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ...(Like when the governators at the TM commune/apple juice farm I worked on in 1981 knew very very little about running a business, and didn't do a lot of work, yet blamed every failure on negativity in the atmosphere. Wow!) That sounds to me more like a misunderstanding of Do less and accomplish more in its objective, more superficial sense. One of the *real* misunderstandings is the idea of support of nature, but that's a whole 'nother issue. One of those True, but... phrases. Anyway, he also said its a waste of time to look for the causes of ignorance, as I recall, so I won't go any further... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 10/4/05 7:33 PM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case, MMY started out with Do less and accomplish more, which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, Do nothing, accomplish everything--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that Do less and accomplish more had had a double meaning all along. I think do nothing merely refers to the fact that the enlightened experience in a very real sense that they (the Self) are doing nothing. The body and all the other faculties may be working hard, as Maharishi always did, but there is the constant sense that I am not doing anything, in fact, I am not even here. Yup, that's what I was referring to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/2/05 9:21 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin tradition: Ramana Maharshi, HWL Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, Andrew Cohen, Adi Da, etc I just skimmed the article, so maybe this is answered and I missed it, but why would Ramana be a Neo-Advaitin? More generally, what's the distinction between pseudo- and Neo-Advaitins and Advaitins? My impression would be that Ramana was neo because he helped usher in a new trend where there wasn't teaching of techniques and methods. People came and hung out with him in satsangs rather than practicing all the various methods used in Advaita. IIRC all he taught was a form of self inquiry. Pseudo advaita seems to be a product of spiritual consumerism which seems to produce a kind of consumer narcissism. It not real nondualism but a faux nondualism. None of these people who hold satsangs possess any realization that is acknowledged or authenticated by a realized being or tradition that I have seen. They often follow a satsang format where those who feel they are awakened share their experiences with others. This movement seems to have really caught on via Papaji (Sri H.W.L. Poonja), whose comments on satsang culture are worth reading: David Godman interviews Papaji: David: ³You used to give experiences to a lot of people. Why did you do it if you knew that the effect would not be permanent?² Papaji: ³I did it to get rid of the leeches who were sticking to me, never allowing me to rest or be by myself. It was a very good way of getting rid of all these leeches in a polite way. I knew that in doing this I was giving lollipops to the ignorant and innocent, but this is what these people wanted. When I tried to give $100 bills to them, they rejected them. They thought that they were just pieces of paper. So I gave them lollipops instead. David: Many of the people you gave lollipops to left Lucknow thinking that they were enlightened. Does the fact that they accepted the lollipop and left indicate that they were not worthy to receive the $100 bills? Papaji: ³If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real teaching. Many people think that they have attained the final state of full and complete liberation. They have fooled themselves, and they have fooled many other people, But they have not fooled me. A person in this state is like a fake coin. It may look like the real thing. It can be passed around and used by ignorant people who use it to buy things with. People who have it in their pocket can boast of having a genuine coin, but it is not real. It has no value. When it is finally discovered to be a fake, the person who is circulating it, claiming that it is real, is subject to the penalties of the law. In the spiritual world, the law of karma catches up and deals with all people who are trafficking in fake experiences. I have never passed on the truth to those whom I could see were fake coins. These people may look like gold and they may glitter like gold, but they have no real value. There are many people who can put on a show and fool other people into believing they are enlightened.² --- Most if not all of the westerners behind this movement are fake coins from what I can grok. It's really about feeling good about small self and consolidating ego. No practices necessary. Thus the term pseudo. Traditional advaita Vedanta is a rather systematic path. Often when the student is ripe, the teacher imparts the experience of the nondual state. And of course there are other forms of Advaita as well, like Sri Vidya (Guru Dev's path). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/2/05 9:21 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin tradition: Ramana Maharshi, HWL Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, Andrew Cohen, Adi Da, etc I just skimmed the article, so maybe this is answered and I missed it, but why would Ramana be a Neo-Advaitin? More generally, what's the distinction between pseudo- and Neo-Advaitins and Advaitins? My impression would be that Ramana was neo because he helped usher in a new trend where there wasn't teaching of techniques and methods. People came and hung out with him in satsangs rather than practicing all the various methods used in Advaita. IIRC all he taught was a form of self inquiry. Pseudo advaita seems to be a product of spiritual consumerism which seems to produce a kind of consumer narcissism. It not real nondualism but a faux nondualism. None of these people who hold satsangs possess any realization that is acknowledged or authenticated by a realized being or tradition that I have seen. They often follow a satsang format where those who feel they are awakened share their experiences with others. Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 8:49 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. Not what I was trying to convey. Papaji was the real juju. He transmitted the non-dual state to some of his American students who felt they were now enlightened. They returned to the US and helped foster what is now termed pseudo-advaita--at least in the current sense, it's probably older. Andrew Cohen was one of the leeches who brought back his alleged enlightenment. Around this that time pseudo-advaita become a larger and more noticeable trend. It seems that the pauperisation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] The Dangers of Pseudo-advaita
I'll be giving my Non-Dual Satsang every Wednesday night. Beer and pretzels will be served. --- akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Dangers of Pseudo-advaita BELOW THE INTRODUCTION FROM A PAPER BY AZIZ KRISTOF INTRODUCTION Although not always thought so as such, Advaita actually falls under the auspices of the three main branches of VEDANTA: 1. Dvaita Vedanta - the dualistic approach 2. Advaita Vedanta - the non-dualistic approach 3. Kevala Advaita Vedanta - the pure non-dualistic school. The main exponent of Vedanta was the great sage Adi Sankara who was an adept of the Kevala Advaita Vedanta path. In western circles it is not unusual to blend the last two together as well as interposing the words Advaita and Vedanta as having the same meaning, becoming in a sense euphemisms of themselves (satsang is often included as well). Generally speaking it works OK, but when fine tuning the specifics then a more indepth process is usually required. (source). Jerry Katz, in a further clarification, in his Nonduality FAQ website, presents the following as well: Advaita means nonduality. Vedanta means end of the Veda. The Vedas, the most ancient texts of Indian literature, are books on mythology and sacrifice. Their origins are superhuman, their authority divine, the Orthodox believe. The end of the Veda marked the coming of the Upanishads, which are books on the nondual nature of reality, but which offer different levels of nondual understanding, and have even given rise dualism, which says that God and the human body are eternally separate. Providing the Introduction: the Wanderling The Dangers of Pseudo Advaita now proceeds: We would like to express our concern regarding the recent phenomenon of 'satsang-culture' which in our opinion has impoverished seriously the Orignial Spirit of Advaita. These days many individuals, who have very little or no knowledge at all about the Process of Awakening, feel qualified to give satsang and lead other souls on the Path. Enlightenment has become very cheap these days. Nobody actually really knows what is the meaning of this term as it virtually means everything and nothing. Nowadays, it is sufficient to say 'I am Awakened' in order to give satsang. Because of the unverifiable nature of Enlightenment, this term has been much manipulated. Satsang has been Americanized. In an average satsang-gathering everybody is laughing, showing signs of euphoric and unauthentic joy, while the teacher tries to look like he or she is in a bliss. Just like a TV show. Very few actually meditate. Why to meditate if we are already all Awakened? But Is this really Advaita? Is Advaita a poor repetition of a several slogans like 'There is nobody there,' 'You are That,' You are already Awakened' or 'There is no Path', etc.? Has this anything to do with teaching of great masters like N. Maharaj or Sri Ramana Maharishi? Ramana sat in caves for 20 years before he could be really complete. In his presence disciples had to meditate for months and years before they could receive from him the glimpse of the Self. It is true that New Millennium is a time of global awakening. But this awakening is mostly partial and relative to the level of most people's unconsciousness. It was Jesus who said that there would be a time when many false teachers will teach in the name of Light. It seems to be happening now. Many of these teachers are not necessarily 'bad people' but simply unqualified and lost, in truth. They have believed too quickly in the thought 'I am now ready to teach!' It seems that the pauper-isation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their 'Awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already Awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of Awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. By the endless investigation into states of all possible masters, and not being able to come to any true conclusion, he has been just
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 8:49 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. Not what I was trying to convey. Papaji was the real juju. He transmitted the non-dual state to some of his American students who felt they were now enlightened. They returned to the US and helped foster what is now termed pseudo-advaita--at least in the current sense, it's probably older. Andrew Cohen was one of the leeches who brought back his alleged enlightenment. Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve conflicts primarily by making everything that is in disagreement with it wrong and everything that agrees with it right. We all are such frigging morons! Or we treat any and all thoughts as just thoughts -- not giving it any special status as true just because its mine. The (trained) intellect can help discern between thoughts that are true and useful, and those that don't hold up, and are a relection of some inner limitation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's your opinion? Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into an acceptance of that which is standing right in front of us. :-) Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are called in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole- hearted or empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long as we are consistent and integral. Or inconsistent and fragmented; no matter; also good. This too, and this neither. Believe in the dream or not, waking up is inevitable, and we always support the dream in its entirety, whether we are consciously aligned with this support or not. :-( :-) :-( :-) There is no real way we can speed up or slow down the Realization that will never happen and that has already happened. Until we swallow time, and embrace the imperfection, we are swallowed by it, and embraced by it. So? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? HA! We see what we need to see, all right. If we cannot accept imperfections with unconditional Love, we will see them everywhere until we can! (you-know-what coming up a few lines below; you may want to stop reading now) (Seriously, stop reading now or you may get mildly irritated) (or even more than mildly irritated) (well you can't say I didn't warn you) :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve conflicts primarily by making everything that is in disagreement with it wrong and everything that agrees with it right. We all are such frigging morons! Or we treat any and all thoughts as just thoughts -- not giving it any special status as true just because its mine. The (trained) intellect can help discern between thoughts that are true and useful, and those that don't hold up, and are a relection of some inner limitation. Here's a thought. Are *any* thoughts true and useful? And is this your thought or mine? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 8:49 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. Not what I was trying to convey. Papaji was the real juju. He transmitted the non-dual state to some of his American students who felt they were now enlightened. They returned to the US and helped foster what is now termed pseudo-advaita--at least in the current sense, it's probably older. Andrew Cohen was one of the leeches who brought back his alleged enlightenment. Around this that time pseudo-advaita become a larger and more noticeable trend. It seems that the pauperisation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. So we see that the Jhanas are not only at the heart of his teaching, but also were at the heart of his own practise. EVEN SO, ALL EIGHT JHANAS WERE STILL NOT ENOUGH. THE BUDDHA'S BREAKTHROUGH TRANSPIRED ONLY AFTER HE HAD SURPASSED THE EIGHTH AND FINAL JHANA!! HIS AWAKENING DID NOT OCCUR IN THE EIGHTH JHANA BUT BEYOND IT. IT IS IN THAT REALM OF BEYOND BEYOND THE BEYOND WHEREIN THE JEWEL OF THE ANCIENTS CAN BE REALIZED BY ALL. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
Or we just see them as old friends. If we know how to relax into the natural state, we can take notice and they self-liberate--as the yogis say 'like dew in the sun'. In self-liberation observing the object¹ (gcer-grol), by looking directly at the discursive, intuitive or super-subtle thought that is present at a given moment, what the thought is in truthwhich is also what the mental subject looking at it is in truthis recognized; in other words, the state of knowledge [Tib: rigpa, Skt: vidya] fully manifests. This has been compared to the recognition of an old friend, because what is thus recognized is one¹s own Essence. One recognizes one¹s own original face which precedes any form something more intimate and more one¹s own than the most intimate of friends. This recognition is not the recognition of an object in terms of a concept or idea, but completely surpasses that type of recognition. It¹s not that one thinks to oneself: the thought or concept now presenting itself is nothing other than the true condition or the primordial nature of all existence¹, but that the mental subject disappears together with the thought that it had taken as an object. Since the duality of a subject and an object instantly disappears, together with the importance that we normally attribute to our experience, the tensions that normally tie up our existence are instantly cut, like the string tying a bundle of wood. As soon as this happens, the primordial state manifests in absolute relaxation. This mode or capacity of liberation is illustrated with the image of recognizing an old friend¹ in many Dzogchen texts, and is indicated by the words namtok no she pe drolwa¹ (rnam-rtog ngo-shes-pas grol-ba). On 10/3/05 10:25 AM, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve conflicts primarily by making everything that is in disagreement with it wrong and everything that agrees with it right. We all are such frigging morons! Or we treat any and all thoughts as just thoughts -- not giving it any special status as true just because its mine. The (trained) intellect can help discern between thoughts that are true and useful, and those that don't hold up, and are a relection of some inner limitation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? I must have missed that. Please explain. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? HA! We see what we need to see, all right. If we cannot accept imperfections with unconditional Love, we will see them everywhere until we can! Heck, and here I thought that if Papaji's contempt for his students wasn't an imperfection, I didn't have to take MMY's contempt for *his* students as an imperfection either. You should be complimenting me for having managed to turn it around and seeing perfection where I once saw imperfection. (you-know-what coming up a few lines below; you may want to stop reading now) (Seriously, stop reading now or you may get mildly irritated) (or even more than mildly irritated) (well you can't say I didn't warn you) :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? I must have missed that. Please explain. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. What would you like to have explained? And what's your response to my question? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? HA! We see what we need to see, all right. If we cannot accept imperfections with unconditional Love, we will see them everywhere until we can! Heck, and here I thought that if Papaji's contempt for his students wasn't an imperfection, I didn't have to take MMY's contempt for *his* students as an imperfection either. You should be complimenting me for having managed to turn it around and seeing perfection where I once saw imperfection. I thought I was! :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 11:23 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? I must have missed that. Please explain. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. What would you like to have explained? And what's your response to my question? You're right: no. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 11:23 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? I must have missed that. Please explain. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. What would you like to have explained? And what's your response to my question? You're right: no. So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's a virtue; but MMY shows contempt for his students, and that's not a virtue. OK, just wanted to get that straight. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's a virtue; He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not contemptuous. but MMY shows contempt for his students, and that's not a virtue. I don't know that he has shown contempt. OK, just wanted to get that straight. OK. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's a virtue; He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not contemptuous. Well, actually he was saying, I did it to get rid of the leeches who were sticking to me and similar remarks (as quoted by you). but MMY shows contempt for his students, and that's not a virtue. I don't know that he has shown contempt. You don't believe what people have reported here? OK, just wanted to get that straight. OK. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's your opinion? Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into an acceptance of that which is standing right in front of us. :-) Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are called in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole- hearted or empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long as we are consistent and integral. Or inconsistent and fragmented; no matter; also good. This too, and this neither. Believe in the dream or not, waking up is inevitable, and we always support the dream in its entirety, whether we are consciously aligned with this support or not. :-( :-) :-( :-) There is no real way we can speed up or slow down the Realization that will never happen and that has already happened. Until we swallow time, and embrace the imperfection, we are swallowed by it, and embraced by it. So? :-) Swallowing time! I like that! Gulp... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's a virtue; He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not contemptuous. Yes. I am thinking that a taste of the non-dual, whether from a teacher or from drugs, is probably still perceived as coming from the outside; one probably then still hasn't fully understood the mechanics of ignorance and of self-recognition... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's your opinion? Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into an acceptance of that which is standing right in front of us. :-) Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are called in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole- hearted or empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long as we are consistent and integral. Or inconsistent and fragmented; no matter; also good. This too, and this neither. Believe in the dream or not, waking up is inevitable, and we always support the dream in its entirety, whether we are consciously aligned with this support or not. :-( :-) :-( :-) There is no real way we can speed up or slow down the Realization that will never happen and that has already happened. Until we swallow time, and embrace the imperfection, we are swallowed by it, and embraced by it. So? :-) Swallowing time! I like that! Gulp... Aaaah... the taste that refreshes! :-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 12:37 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's a virtue; He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not contemptuous. Well, actually he was saying, I did it to get rid of the leeches who were sticking to me and similar remarks (as quoted by you). I loved that. but MMY shows contempt for his students, and that's not a virtue. I don't know that he has shown contempt. You don't believe what people have reported here? I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excellent article on previous postmakes it all the more important to formulate a set of objective/relative signs which attest to one's Enlightenment, realization of the Self. But this is problematic within the context of the groundrules laid out by the proponents of Pseudo-Advaita, of where are many in the Web. A quick google can uncover a few dozen of them. snip What's your opinion? The crux of your inquiry seems to be not so much how do we know we are enlightened, but how do we share that or convince others that we are? First, anyone with a thirst to let others know how enlightened they are is mired in deep ignorance, and is either expoliting their followers, or has self-esteem issues. How do we convince others that we are enlightened? It has always worked for me on a frequency level, like a radio. Whenever I am in the presence of someone enlightened, my body resonates at that frequency of Wholeness. it is simple, obvious and unmistakable. As far as my own criteria for my own enlightenment, it has always been a simple one; how much am I enjoying myself, or suffering? Gets rid of the BS right away. ...And I've never had much success convincing myself that if only external element A -Z were changed, I'd be happier. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
The crux of your inquiry seems to be not so much how do we know we are enlightened, but how do we share that or convince others that we are? What about - is there such a state labelled Enlightenment and is it worthwhile attaining it? Forget about the entertainment of lights, energy and sleep witnessing. First, anyone with a thirst to let others know how enlightened they are is mired in deep ignorance, and is either expoliting their followers, or has self-esteem issues. Same with money, sex, fame...etc. How do we convince others that we are enlightened? It has always worked for me on a frequency level, like a radio. Whenever I am in the presence of someone enlightened, my body resonates at that frequency of Wholeness. it is simple, obvious and unmistakable. The same can be said to happen when in proximity to charimatic, wealthy and attractice people too. Just some more subjective stuff arising from feelings etc.. As far as my own criteria for my own enlightenment, it has always been a simple one; how much am I enjoying myself, or suffering? Gets rid of the BS right away. ...And I've never had much success convincing myself that if only external element A -Z were changed, I'd be happier. Now, THATS a viewpoint that has merit. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
And I've never had much success convincing myself that if only external element A -Z were changed, I'd be happier. So you would not be happier if people stopped, in your view, dissing the ballsy Rory? (even when in reality its all back and forth fun). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The crux of your inquiry seems to be not so much how do we know we are enlightened, but how do we share that or convince others that we are? What about - is there such a state labelled Enlightenment and is it worthwhile attaining it? Forget about the entertainment of lights, energy and sleep witnessing. snip Yes, Yes, Yes!!! The whole object of the exercise as I see it is two fold; to establish ourselves in a permanent state of non-changing existence, and therefore eliminate suffering. Everything else is either getting there, or enjoying it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I've never had much success convincing myself that if only external element A -Z were changed, I'd be happier. So you would not be happier if people stopped, in your view, dissing the ballsy Rory? (even when in reality its all back and forth fun). Good question. Sure, I experience transient desires and their fulfillment, or lack thereof, and associate feelings with those experiences. That is a joy of being alive! In fact I am more fully engage in the transient events of my life than I ever was before, paradoxically. It just doesn't go all that deep. Nor would I stake my identity on the conformance on nonconformance of some percieved outside element in my life. Rather, the challenge is always to integrate myself with that preceived outside element. Hope that answers your question. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
First, anyone with a thirst to let others know how enlightened they are is mired in deep ignorance, and is either expoliting their followers, or has self-esteem issues. I'd say that anyone who *cares* how enlightened someone other than him- or herself is is wasting a lot of energy they could be using to either help other people or have fun or both. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do we convince others that we are enlightened? It has always worked for me on a frequency level, like a radio. Whenever I am in the presence of someone enlightened, my body resonates at that frequency of Wholeness. it is simple, obvious and unmistakable. The same can be said to happen when in proximity to charimatic, wealthy and attractice people too. Just some more subjective stuff arising from feelings etc.. You are right, it is a resonant frequency with the beautiful and charismatic, though a different 'station' tuned in on the radio. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] The Dangers of Pseudo-advaita
The Dangers of Pseudo-advaita BELOW THE INTRODUCTION FROM A PAPER BY AZIZ KRISTOF INTRODUCTION Although not always thought so as such, Advaita actually falls under the auspices of the three main branches of VEDANTA: 1. Dvaita Vedanta - the dualistic approach 2. Advaita Vedanta - the non-dualistic approach 3. Kevala Advaita Vedanta - the pure non-dualistic school. The main exponent of Vedanta was the great sage Adi Sankara who was an adept of the Kevala Advaita Vedanta path. In western circles it is not unusual to blend the last two together as well as interposing the words Advaita and Vedanta as having the same meaning, becoming in a sense euphemisms of themselves (satsang is often included as well). Generally speaking it works OK, but when fine tuning the specifics then a more indepth process is usually required. (source). Jerry Katz, in a further clarification, in his Nonduality FAQ website, presents the following as well: Advaita means nonduality. Vedanta means end of the Veda. The Vedas, the most ancient texts of Indian literature, are books on mythology and sacrifice. Their origins are superhuman, their authority divine, the Orthodox believe. The end of the Veda marked the coming of the Upanishads, which are books on the nondual nature of reality, but which offer different levels of nondual understanding, and have even given rise dualism, which says that God and the human body are eternally separate. Providing the Introduction: the Wanderling The Dangers of Pseudo Advaita now proceeds: We would like to express our concern regarding the recent phenomenon of 'satsang-culture' which in our opinion has impoverished seriously the Orignial Spirit of Advaita. These days many individuals, who have very little or no knowledge at all about the Process of Awakening, feel qualified to give satsang and lead other souls on the Path. Enlightenment has become very cheap these days. Nobody actually really knows what is the meaning of this term as it virtually means everything and nothing. Nowadays, it is sufficient to say 'I am Awakened' in order to give satsang. Because of the unverifiable nature of Enlightenment, this term has been much manipulated. Satsang has been Americanized. In an average satsang-gathering everybody is laughing, showing signs of euphoric and unauthentic joy, while the teacher tries to look like he or she is in a bliss. Just like a TV show. Very few actually meditate. Why to meditate if we are already all Awakened? But Is this really Advaita? Is Advaita a poor repetition of a several slogans like 'There is nobody there,' 'You are That,' You are already Awakened' or 'There is no Path', etc.? Has this anything to do with teaching of great masters like N. Maharaj or Sri Ramana Maharishi? Ramana sat in caves for 20 years before he could be really complete. In his presence disciples had to meditate for months and years before they could receive from him the glimpse of the Self. It is true that New Millennium is a time of global awakening. But this awakening is mostly partial and relative to the level of most people's unconsciousness. It was Jesus who said that there would be a time when many false teachers will teach in the name of Light. It seems to be happening now. Many of these teachers are not necessarily 'bad people' but simply unqualified and lost, in truth. They have believed too quickly in the thought 'I am now ready to teach!' It seems that the pauper-isation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their 'Awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already Awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of Awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. By the endless investigation into states of all possible masters, and not being able to come to any true conclusion, he has been just confusing his students. The only thing which at the end remains clear from his seemingly 'sincere' efforts to find clarity is that nobody has the least idea 'What Enlightenment Is!' It is not our intention to suggest that nobody reaches Enlightenment. We just wish to make it clear (similar as
Re: [FairfieldLife] The Dangers of Pseudo-advaita
On 10/2/05 5:05 PM, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because of the unverifiable nature of Enlightenment, this term has been much manipulated. Satsang has been Americanized. In an average satsang-gathering everybody is laughing, showing signs of euphoric and unauthentic joy, while the teacher tries to look like he or she is in a bliss. Just like a TV show. Very few actually meditate. Why to meditate if we are already all Awakened? I had posted this here before, glad to see it again. The thing you have to understand is that not everyone is a follower of a commercial guru. Many people have been trained in all the various bhumis or stages of the path, and often completely in numerous paths. In addition there will be people who have different levels of experience on these paths and their signs--inner, our and secret. What happens when they see people who, claiming to be enlightened or awakened but lack the experiences and the accumulations--and the signs--of aspects of the path? What of those who have had their View authenticated by their lineage and hear awakened ones expressing incorrect View. These people do know. Others may not, but 'you can only fool some of the people, some of the time.' It's naïve to assume these states are unverifiable. The are verifiable by other experiencers. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin tradition: Ramana Maharshi, HWL Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, Andrew Cohen, Adi Da, etc I just skimmed the article, so maybe this is answered and I missed it, but why would Ramana be a Neo-Advaitin? More generally, what's the distinction between pseudo- and Neo-Advaitins and Advaitins? The problem arises since Ramana Maharshi himself stated that any talk of I'm Enlishtened is a lot of nonsense since there's no I left to claim it. Seems to me one shouldn't get so hung up on words that one is left without a way to communicate one's state of consciousness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's your opinion? Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into an acceptance of that which is standing right in in front of us. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's your opinion? Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into an acceptance of that which is standing right in in front of us. :-) Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are called in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole-hearted or empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long as we are consistent and integral. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
This begs the question then - are these real symptons of a Ego are just apparent symptoms ? I say - a cow is a cow regardless. What's your opinion? A person self-stimulates themselves while viewing/reading a pornographic magazine. The resulting physiological reaction is actual. The feelings arising are quite real to the person. The person proclaims I am the greater lover of all. Real to them. Maybe others that read porno books and do self-stimulation can relate. Illusion? Reading so-called Holy Books and effortlessly thinking some special word can create interesting feelings and physiological reactions. Enlightenment or illusion? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
