Re: Translation
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 00:28, Peyman wrote: Persian has one of the most productive word formation systems. I would appreciate seeing some statistics to back that up, like you have done with the verbs. Do you have any? roozbeh ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: Translation
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 12:29, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Well, you're probably right, but then the suffixes are going to lose all their meaning as a suffix. After a while there would be no common sense between words ending with ak... (and yes, there would be no suffix, some new words). Guest what? The suffixes have already lost their meanings. This same -ak is a good example. You want language control and mathematical semantics, which is more than impossible with a language like Persian, IMHO. -gaan is not anything special, it's just aan for plural, joined to a word ending with hah-e naamalfooz. Just like saadegaan. So it means datas. But again AFAIK data and daade are both plurals. Don't know about paadegaan. I am sorry, I am not talking about *that* -gaan. I'm *only* talking about the -gaan in paadegaan. That's an abbreviation: FTP = gharaardaad-e enteghaal-e parvande: gheyn, alef, pe. If you have problems with abbreviations, don't use them. And write gharaardaad-e enteghaal-e parvande everywhere? Write FTP if you like, or whatever you prefer. Go with fetepe if you like that. Or call it chiz ;-) You're definitely not bound by any of the requirements of the Academy. This is the translation of the Redo menu, not the action of redo-ing. I agree that it's not that good, but I've not seen many good ones. Your suggestion? az no reminds me of reset in forms. dobaare and tekraar may have the same meaning as az no, but do it better, again IMHO. At last something I can pass. I'll ask the guys. * scroll - navardidan! The problem? Your suggestion? navardidan is completely another word, isn't? It do not hold the feeling of rolling in a single direction, and it contains a sense of a challenge, that cannot be ignored. My suggestion? Good question. OK, from my Moaser Persian Dictionary: [adabi] dar mohit, mantaghe, yaa masiri harekat kardan va az noghte-i be noghte-ye digar-e aan raftan. I can't see the sense of challenge there. I agree that it's not scrolling exactly, but what translation has the exact senses of its original word? Time will give all the senses to it. * output (device) - khorooji (Isn't khorooji also a noun in Persian?) It's *only* a noun in Persian, as far as I can tell. I'm not getting what you mean. Would you explain? From what I get, is that they are translating the output of a program as boroon-daad, but an output device as dastgaah-e khorooji. Exactly. What is the problem then? The problem is that, they are misusing their power to decide for the language! They have been asked to do so. We need an authority for the language. American English has Merriam-Webster, British English has Oxford, German has Duden, and French has its Academie. They are trying their best to provide authority. As far as I can tell, they are coming to a point of good output. Well, I could never ever think about defending the Academy, but I'm doing that. Why? First, because they're having some good-enough output (which, well, you don't agree to, which I can understand). But second, because I've seen the anarchy out here, everyone considering himself/herself the authority, without even consulting the references. Haven't you? Aren't we on the same front exactly because of that? You and I could have been decide on many technicall matters, and spread it all around the world by coding that here and there. But we have never done that so to decide for others. We have never done that, since we know our work is not authoritative enough. Because it has not been the result of a consensus of experts. Academy's output is partially the result of such a consensus. Better the propose words and wait some 5 or 10 years, and decide if that can be settled. rayane is setteled down. But the way they do it, they force many bodies to follow their word. Well, these are not exactly *new* words. The words have been around and used for a long time by some translators. ISI's word list (masterminded by Dr Mashayekh) is the main source for these, as is Mohammadifar's Computer Dictionary (published by Moaser), and the entrepreneurial works of Dr Rohani-Rankoohi and Dr Badi', all of whom are members of the computer terms committee (with a few other people). I can't say they haven't seen all the references: they have. I've talked all of them (but Dr Rohani-Rankoohi) on different matters, and I know they don't move an inch in these waters without contacting every reference they can find on the matter. It's easy to start calling them fossils, as we young people love to do, and close their dossier so easily, but we need to separate real work from just inventing random words (like some people we know have been doing). I really believe you should provide feedback to the Academy, and see what reasons they have. I'm meeting Dr Mashayekh (the head of the computer terms committee) to talk on exactly the same subject this Wednesday morning. I promise I forward
Re: Translation
On Saturday 04 October 2003 03:59, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Hi, You know that the 'book' in 'bookmark' is refering to the book/n/, not book/v/. The original word bookmark/v/ is kind of tricky, as it's not listed in dictionaries, and is a invented to be used in browsers. BTW, the standard Persian translation for bookmark/n/ is choob-alef. It may seem weird, but better we stick with it and spread it around, instead of replacing with a new word. I remember the word was there back in early 90s in Persian MS Windows 3.1s. And perhaps bookmark/v/ can be translated as choob-alef gozaashtan or literally choob-alef gozaardan. behdad This is exactly how we have translated bookmark for FarsiKDE. Greetings, Arash On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Ali A Khanban wrote: It seems to me something like sabt-e neshaani for bookmark is more relevant, if we look at the meaning and also think of book as register. So for bookmark this page we may say neshaani-ye in safhe raa sabt konid. -ali- Skip Tavakkolian wrote: Does any one knows a translation forBOOKMARK orBOOKMARK THIS PAGE in Persian? neshaane safheh or neshaane ketab? I don't know if such a phrase is actually in common use. Reminds me of my highschool physics teacher trying to explain where the word shaar (a replacement for flux) came from. After thinking about it, he said, it comes from Farsie be pedar o madar. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb -- The FarsiKDE Project www.farsikde.org ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: Translation
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 11:05, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: [snip my .02] So you mean ghaltak means abzaar-e ghalt-zadan?? I'm sorry, but language is not that exact, neither I am an expert in these. ghaltak means abzaar-e ghalt-zan. neshaanak may mean abzaar-e neshaan-zan (not exactly, yes). Also, these suffixes do not exactly bring a meaning with themselves, contrary to what we've been learning in high school. The -ak in sorkhak and zardak is just a suffix that creates a noun out of an adjective. In ghaltak and probably kaardak, it just makes a tool out of something else. Just don't try to be productive in the old sense, trying to assign exact meanings to each postfix and prefix. Well, you're probably right, but then the suffixes are going to lose all their meaning as a suffix. After a while there would be no common sense between words ending with ak... (and yes, there would be no suffix, some new words). [snip again] Unfortunately I'm loosing my last hopes on them. I can't fight for all these silly funny words (just a few of them are quoted): * database - daadegaan The relationship of base and -gaan is existing, I guess -gaan should have been a widely used postfix in Pahlavi. paadegaan? -gaan is not anything special, it's just aan for plural, joined to a word ending with hah-e naamalfooz. Just like saadegaan. So it means datas. But again AFAIK data and daade are both plurals. Don't know about paadegaan. * ftp - ghaap That's an abbreviation: FTP = gharaardaad-e enteghaal-e parvande: gheyn, alef, pe. If you have problems with abbreviations, don't use them. And write gharaardaad-e enteghaal-e parvande everywhere? I like Omid Milani's transliteration for HTML as echtemel, and XML as iksemel (I prefe eksemel myself though). * redo - az no This is the translation of the Redo menu, not the action of redo-ing. I agree that it's not that good, but I've not seen many good ones. Your suggestion? az no reminds me of reset in forms. dobaare and tekraar may have the same meaning as az no, but do it better, again IMHO. * scroll - navardidan! The problem? Your suggestion? navardidan is completely another word, isn't? It do not hold the feeling of rolling in a single direction, and it contains a sense of a challenge, that cannot be ignored. My suggestion? Good question. And their inconsistencies: * interface - vaaset, miaanaa * Graphical User Interface - miaanaa-ye ... (miana is the second choice for interface) There is still a debate going on over that. vaaset was already approved for a term in the Electricity Word-Choosing Group, but the Computer group wanted miaanaa. That is not finalized, so they are listing both candidates for feedback. vaaset is so common. The problem should be kind of Arabic vs Ferdowsi. ;) * output (device) - khorooji (Isn't khorooji also a noun in Persian?) It's *only* a noun in Persian, as far as I can tell. I'm not getting what you mean. Would you explain? From what I get, is that they are translating the output of a program as boroon-daad, but an output device as dastgaah-e khorooji. Exactly. They never bothered themselves to identify nouns and verbs in their list. They do, in the final published list. They are assuming it's evident from the translation. But in this certain case, I agree that they have not translated output in the verb sense. The problem is that, they are misusing their power to decide for the language! You and I could have been decide on many technicall matters, and spread it all around the world by coding that here and there. But we have never done that so to decide for others. Better the propose words and wait some 5 or 10 years, and decide if that can be settled. rayane is setteled down. But the way they do it, they force many bodies to follow their word. roozbeh behdad ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: Translation
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: vaaset is so common. The problem should be kind of Arabic vs Ferdowsi. ;) I find this discussion very educational. Isn't this problem easier to handle in Arabic than in Farsi? From my limited knowledge of Arabic, it seem that, because Arabic's diction and vocabulary are in harmony with its grammar, inventing new words are a matter of straight forward application of existing rules; that is also exactly the reason why it is hard in Farsi. Exactly, and that's why I don't like these using suffixes for any random meaning. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: Translation
The problem of new word coinage is not because of language components (affixes) although Persian has one of the most productive word formation systems. The problem for making new words in our language is lack of simple verbs (as quoted by Dr. Bateni). We have roughly 340 simple verbs 110 of which is active only. We normally make compound verbs. Contrary to Persian, Arabic has the most nonproductive new word formation systems (but enriched semantics). e.g. the beautiful word nAtarAvAyi in Persian (impenetrability) has its equivalent in Arabic as a sentence lA emkAna qAbeliyat attarashoh. The affixes in Persian are the most powerful components in our language. If you are interested to know the problem you can read the article FArsi zabAni aqim? by Dr. BAteni. He is a genius who wrote about these problems 40 years ago. Peyman --- Behdad Esfahbod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: vaaset is so common. The problem should be kind of Arabic vs Ferdowsi. ;) I find this discussion very educational. Isn't this problem easier to handle in Arabic than in Farsi? From my limited knowledge of Arabic, it seem that, because Arabic's diction and vocabulary are in harmony with its grammar, inventing new words are a matter of straight forward application of existing rules; that is also exactly the reason why it is hard in Farsi. Exactly, and that's why I don't like these using suffixes for any random meaning. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: Translation
Hi, You know that the 'book' in 'bookmark' is refering to the book/n/, not book/v/. The original word bookmark/v/ is kind of tricky, as it's not listed in dictionaries, and is a invented to be used in browsers. BTW, the standard Persian translation for bookmark/n/ is choob-alef. It may seem weird, but better we stick with it and spread it around, instead of replacing with a new word. I remember the word was there back in early 90s in Persian MS Windows 3.1s. And perhaps bookmark/v/ can be translated as choob-alef gozaashtan or literally choob-alef gozaardan. behdad On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Ali A Khanban wrote: It seems to me something like sabt-e neshaani for bookmark is more relevant, if we look at the meaning and also think of book as register. So for bookmark this page we may say neshaani-ye in safhe raa sabt konid. -ali- Skip Tavakkolian wrote: Does any one knows a translation forBOOKMARK orBOOKMARK THIS PAGE in Persian? neshaane safheh or neshaane ketab? I don't know if such a phrase is actually in common use. Reminds me of my highschool physics teacher trying to explain where the word shaar (a replacement for flux) came from. After thinking about it, he said, it comes from Farsie be pedar o madar. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
