Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Jason, no pun intended. Adobe, pun intended: this marketing bu**s**t I think the term Flex is kind of confusing people though, as it can mean different things just like Flash cam. Sometimes people use Flex to refer to the framework and SDK, sometimes as Flexbuilder, sometimes as the technology, sometimes as MXML (and sometimes for working out at the gym). It's like how people confuse Flash with Flash CS3, the Flash CS framework or the Flash Platform (which has many tools that create content for it, including Flex, Thermo, Captivate, etc.) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
hi, certainly OOT, but for the sake of exactness, Ecodazoo was not made with papervision. Roxik (http://roxik.com/) used a custom 3d engine (Sharikura): http://temp.roxik.com/ Olivier Merrill, Jason a écrit : Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Olivier Besson (gludion) - (33 1) 44 64 78 99 http://.gludion.com http://blog.gludion.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I never spoke about 'cool' sites ;) I agree we cannot compare applications and event/marketing sites, or even experimental sites. As a precision, I view EcoDaZoo as the best flash site ever made (MHO). First, because of the way it communicates, and then because of its technicity (inhouse 3D engine, inhouse Tweening engine) AND simplicity. I saw some slick Flex Apps like Picnik and thought that's very slick and 'to the point'. What I love here ? It is all based on the foundations of what we used to call 'Flash'. Of course, for applications, Flex is better. But yet, I must say my team did develop a digital signage application completely built from scratch (no code reuse, whatever part) in Flash. There is a 'Player' and an 'Editor'. Both are very tough and let the users have freedom. So, all in all, I know I had to build up my own components, framework and UI zings. No doubt I could do it with Flex. I know I reinvented the wheel here, but I know all in all, with my specific needs, I don't have lost much time in the process of programming. The thing is I did all the flash part (design + code)... As a side and 'funny' note, I was contacted by a photographers team 3 months ago for building a Flash Gallery (quite advanced I must admit). I was in 'competition' with a Flex Agency. Funnily enough, they were 5 people working on the Flex side, I was 1 for the Flash part. Their budget was 6 times higher than mine, and their proposal was very 'conventional' (ie: using Flex components, some custom made, but overall UI would stick to what we know of Flex). I got the job, built some slick application, and thought, in the end, I had some 'chance' :) True conclusion: there is no way comparing Flash and Flex :P People working in teams and wanting to live honestly and that are not ready to imply their *lives* in the process should opt for FLEX. end point :) Cedric Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flashcoders- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
and that's when you don't do liquid layout in Flash ;) Yep - but to be honest the .fla still contains all the links to the external assets. Erm, Ian, all you need to reference in the FLA is ONE Class file; and that class file can then contain ALL the references to all the subclasses; so you never need to edit the FLA after day1 unless the stage size changes... or you need to change the publishing path. :) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Interesting, I thought I had first been introduced to it via the Papervision 3D site - regardless, it's very impressive. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olivier Besson Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 5:45 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash hi, certainly OOT, but for the sake of exactness, Ecodazoo was not made with papervision. Roxik (http://roxik.com/) used a custom 3d engine (Sharikura): http://temp.roxik.com/ Olivier Merrill, Jason a écrit : Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Olivier Besson (gludion) - (33 1) 44 64 78 99 http://.gludion.com http://blog.gludion.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
OK, you're right, you said, best and used words like slick, not cool - so I just assumed, sorry. I mean, we'd all probably agree opinions are all pretty subjective. Flash has been around a lot longer, so the developer community there certainly is more mature. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 6:32 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash I never spoke about 'cool' sites ;) I agree we cannot compare applications and event/marketing sites, or even experimental sites. As a precision, I view EcoDaZoo as the best flash site ever made (MHO). First, because of the way it communicates, and then because of its technicity (inhouse 3D engine, inhouse Tweening engine) AND simplicity. I saw some slick Flex Apps like Picnik and thought that's very slick and 'to the point'. What I love here ? It is all based on the foundations of what we used to call 'Flash'. Of course, for applications, Flex is better. But yet, I must say my team did develop a digital signage application completely built from scratch (no code reuse, whatever part) in Flash. There is a 'Player' and an 'Editor'. Both are very tough and let the users have freedom. So, all in all, I know I had to build up my own components, framework and UI zings. No doubt I could do it with Flex. I know I reinvented the wheel here, but I know all in all, with my specific needs, I don't have lost much time in the process of programming. The thing is I did all the flash part (design + code)... As a side and 'funny' note, I was contacted by a photographers team 3 months ago for building a Flash Gallery (quite advanced I must admit). I was in 'competition' with a Flex Agency. Funnily enough, they were 5 people working on the Flex side, I was 1 for the Flash part. Their budget was 6 times higher than mine, and their proposal was very 'conventional' (ie: using Flex components, some custom made, but overall UI would stick to what we know of Flex). I got the job, built some slick application, and thought, in the end, I had some 'chance' :) True conclusion: there is no way comparing Flash and Flex :P People working in teams and wanting to live honestly and that are not ready to imply their *lives* in the process should opt for FLEX. end point :) Cedric Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flashcoders- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
You should try using git with flex builder projects, amazing. Changing branches on the fly and Flex Builder with go right along with you, saving your different swfs as well. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Notoriously, version control systems are bad at handling differences/resolving differences between binary files, and the .fla format is binary. Although I should point out that this is going to change in future versions of the IDE, as the .fla will become an XML file rather than an .mxml file. Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
??? This is totally not a valid comment, either I don't understand the term liquid, or other's don't know how to implement it. Cedric Muller wrote: and that's when you don't do liquid layout in Flash ;) Yep - but to be honest the .fla still contains all the links to the external assets. Erm, Ian, all you need to reference in the FLA is ONE Class file; and that class file can then contain ALL the references to all the subclasses; so you never need to edit the FLA after day1 unless the stage size changes... or you need to change the publishing path. :) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
And who's fault is that? Anyone can write spaghetti code in any language whatever the markup. The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can easily turn into nesting hell. , unless the coders know what they are doing. The benefits of Flex databinding and UI are bogus, if you are an OOP programmer reusability exists with any OOP language. In the end it's just a language, so choose what you want. Elia ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can
easily turn into nesting hell. , unless the coders know what they are doing.
The benefits of Flex databinding and UI are bogus, if you are an OOP
programmer reusability exists with any OOP language.
Bogus?
Not at all. The benefits are in speed of development and clarity.
It is perfectly possible to replicate databinding in AS3 (after all,
the underlying implementation _is_ AS3).
But to do so will require considerably more code, and is harder to read.
Similarly for the UI - yes, you can replicate everything in MXML's
layout in AS3, but it also requires more code and is harder to read.
Consider this simple layout example in MXML:
mx:VBox width=100% horizontalAlign=center
mx:Label text=Testing/
mx:Button label=Cancel click=dispatchEvent(new
UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true))/
/mx:VBox
And in AS3:
var vbox:VBox=new VBox();
vbox.percentWidth=100;
vbox.setStyle(horizontalAlign,center);
var label:Label=new Label();
label.text=Testing;
vbox.addChild(label);
var button:Button=new Button();
button.label=Cancel;
button.addEventListener(MouseEvent.CLICK,onCancelClicked,false,0,true);
vbox.addChild(button);
addChild(vbox);
private function onCancelClicked(ev:MouseEvent):void
{
dispatchEvent(new UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true));
}
In what way is the AS3 clearer? In what way is it easier to maintain?
In what way is it easier to see how the objects are laid out on the
screen just by looking at the code? In what way is it _faster to
develop_?
In what way is the MXML more spaghetti-like?
I agree that - as with any layout language - you can get tangled up by
burying the implementation inside the layout. That's the same sort of
issue that exists in other languages - for example, PHP. But that's
simply about learning how to use it correctly.
I think it's foolish to entirely write off a useful syntax/language
based on examples written by people who don't understand how to use it
properly.
But then, I find MXML a useful tool for layout. It's your loss if you
don't use it.
Ian
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Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
This is by far the only problem of Flex. Cedric Apps that are not skinned or have some nice graphical touch to them are kinda disappointing, like the BMW site that was posted.. very poor IMO. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. Notoriously, version control systems are bad at handling differences/resolving differences between binary files, and the .fla format is binary. Additionally, the Flex compiler can be used on the command-line, and so is very easy to integrate with automated build systems. As an example, we can now build any of our products by typing one line at a command-prompt, and get out the other end a Flash app fully packaged up in a projector with an installer, help files and autorun - all ready to be burned on to CD. In the past using the Flash IDE, that's been much harder to achieve. HTH, Ian On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Notoriously, version control systems are bad at handling differences/resolving differences between binary files, and the .fla format is binary. Although I should point out that this is going to change in future versions of the IDE, as the .fla will become an XML file rather than an .mxml file. ...rather than a binary file, not .mxml file. I'm having a bad morning, apologies! Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Notoriously, version control systems are bad at handling differences/resolving differences between binary files, and the .fla format is binary. Although I should point out that this is going to change in future versions of the IDE, as the .fla will become an XML file rather than an .mxml file. Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Have you tried the ASWing GUI Builder? If you use it, then the examples you
provided below are not required at all. The code is generated for you.
Elia
- Original Message -
From: Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can
easily turn into nesting hell. , unless the coders know what they are
doing.
The benefits of Flex databinding and UI are bogus, if you are an OOP
programmer reusability exists with any OOP language.
Bogus?
Not at all. The benefits are in speed of development and clarity.
It is perfectly possible to replicate databinding in AS3 (after all,
the underlying implementation _is_ AS3).
But to do so will require considerably more code, and is harder to read.
Similarly for the UI - yes, you can replicate everything in MXML's
layout in AS3, but it also requires more code and is harder to read.
Consider this simple layout example in MXML:
mx:VBox width=100% horizontalAlign=center
mx:Label text=Testing/
mx:Button label=Cancel click=dispatchEvent(new
UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true))/
/mx:VBox
And in AS3:
var vbox:VBox=new VBox();
vbox.percentWidth=100;
vbox.setStyle(horizontalAlign,center);
var label:Label=new Label();
label.text=Testing;
vbox.addChild(label);
var button:Button=new Button();
button.label=Cancel;
button.addEventListener(MouseEvent.CLICK,onCancelClicked,false,0,true);
vbox.addChild(button);
addChild(vbox);
private function onCancelClicked(ev:MouseEvent):void
{
dispatchEvent(new UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true));
}
In what way is the AS3 clearer? In what way is it easier to maintain?
In what way is it easier to see how the objects are laid out on the
screen just by looking at the code? In what way is it _faster to
develop_?
In what way is the MXML more spaghetti-like?
I agree that - as with any layout language - you can get tangled up by
burying the implementation inside the layout. That's the same sort of
issue that exists in other languages - for example, PHP. But that's
simply about learning how to use it correctly.
I think it's foolish to entirely write off a useful syntax/language
based on examples written by people who don't understand how to use it
properly.
But then, I find MXML a useful tool for layout. It's your loss if you
don't use it.
Ian
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___
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Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. I may be totally martian here, but ... hmmm, besides the FLA part, you can externalize everything in text files too (no code in the FLA, just assets (and even...) and external AS files). This is making me think that, as always, there are big differences between the framework provided and the technology used. Start from nothing, use Flash, try to build up a framework (at least, some app building logic), all on your own, and/or with the help of other Flashcoders. Then, you discover Flex, and this gives you the framework (ie: geniuses thought about this for you). You stick to the framework, learn to structure code / applications, and then get on the next part: being efficient. With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. But all the best Flash apps are Flex, because it is ... just simply ... simpler. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you tried the ASWing GUI Builder? If you use it, then the examples you provided below are not required at all. The code is generated for you. *ahem* Have you tried the Flex GUI Builder? If you use it, then the examples I provided are not required at all. The MXML is generated for you, and won't be spaghettified. :-D But on a more serious note - does ASWing support CSS skinning? Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Please let me be the mad analogies professor here: Flash is the Industrialization. Flex is the factories. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On a productivity basis, I totally agree with you. Flex made Flash take off. Working with Flash and teams was some hard task. Now I am all on my own, reinventing the wheel, and I feel happy and confident with this, no team, no versionning, even no components. I am nearing the end of a gallery application developpment. I don't know how it would have been possible to make the app look as it is with Flex but I know it would have taken twice less time, AND overall look and feel would have been cut by two (I did some serious integration there). When things are working, I do prefer personnality over technicity. Reusability ? yes, and no. I reuse my brain, that's it. ... and, of course, parts of my code :) but I am a Flex virgin (let's say so), so this message is personal, of no help, and no consequence On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Cedric Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. I may be totally martian here, but ... hmmm, besides the FLA part, you can externalize everything in text files too (no code in the FLA, just assets (and even...) and external AS files). Yep - but to be honest the .fla still contains all the links to the external assets. If one developer alters the library and saves the .fla file; and another developer does the same thing, it's very hard to reconcile the two different versions. Using Flex and embeds - or .properties files - it's very easy to get around that issue, because the list of links to assets are in a text file. Most good source control systems will sort that out for you without you having to care. :-) Don't get me wrong, in many cases it's not an issue. But in an app or framework of any size with more than a couple of developers on it, it can save a lot of frustration. :-) Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
This is what make great men you know. The mass, hmmm, is just the mass. You are welcome to your opinion but enjoy the solitude of your perspective. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Fair enough - but - I'm kind of separating out the argument here, now. The differences in version control and command-line stuff are not to do with the Flex _framework_ (UI, classes etc.) but to do with the Flex _compiler_ and environment. You don't have to touch MXML or embed any of the Flex classes to be using the Flex compiler and environment. HTH, Ian On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Cedric Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a productivity basis, I totally agree with you. Flex made Flash take off. Working with Flash and teams was some hard task. Now I am all on my own, reinventing the wheel, and I feel happy and confident with this, no team, no versionning, even no components. I am nearing the end of a gallery application developpment. I don't know how it would have been possible to make the app look as it is with Flex but I know it would have taken twice less time, AND overall look and feel would have been cut by two (I did some serious integration there). When things are working, I do prefer personnality over technicity. Reusability ? yes, and no. I reuse my brain, that's it. ... and, of course, parts of my code :) but I am a Flex virgin (let's say so), so this message is personal, of no help, and no consequence ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, this I understand. As I view Flex, it is definitely the way to go. I even thought, that maybe, in 5 years time (or 10...) Flash will disappear as a development tool (Adobe is already referring to Flash as the Platform, not the tool, or at least tries to beamcast it to our brains). Flash being the underlying technology, it is too hard, complex and dark to shine out as a development tool. It is an older generation. I just hope I won't be programming in 10 years ;) Fair enough - but - I'm kind of separating out the argument here, now. The differences in version control and command-line stuff are not to do with the Flex _framework_ (UI, classes etc.) but to do with the Flex _compiler_ and environment. You don't have to touch MXML or embed any of the Flex classes to be using the Flex compiler and environment. HTH, Ian On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Cedric Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a productivity basis, I totally agree with you. Flex made Flash take off. Working with Flash and teams was some hard task. Now I am all on my own, reinventing the wheel, and I feel happy and confident with this, no team, no versionning, even no components. I am nearing the end of a gallery application developpment. I don't know how it would have been possible to make the app look as it is with Flex but I know it would have taken twice less time, AND overall look and feel would have been cut by two (I did some serious integration there). When things are working, I do prefer personnality over technicity. Reusability ? yes, and no. I reuse my brain, that's it. ... and, of course, parts of my code :) but I am a Flex virgin (let's say so), so this message is personal, of no help, and no consequence ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, I'm aware that Flex generates MXML. I respect everyone that uses Flex, and employ it myself occasionally. Everybody has their preferences. Coming from a Java background MXML does not appeal to me, but I understand that it may to some. ASWing does not support CSS that I know of. It uses a LAF (Look And Feel) class, and can also easily be skinned with vectors (FLA file) or bitmaps (Photoshop template). Elia - Original Message - From: Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you tried the ASWing GUI Builder? If you use it, then the examples you provided below are not required at all. The code is generated for you. *ahem* Have you tried the Flex GUI Builder? If you use it, then the examples I provided are not required at all. The MXML is generated for you, and won't be spaghettified. :-D But on a more serious note - does ASWing support CSS skinning? Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
You shouldn't forget that Flash is brilliant for vector artwork and timeline animations. That's how we're using it these days internally - as an asset creation tool rather than as a programming environment. And, as Elia and others have said, it's great for non-standard UIs or for lightweight sites. It'll be interesting to see how Catalyst plays into all this. Ian On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Cedric Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, this I understand. As I view Flex, it is definitely the way to go. I even thought, that maybe, in 5 years time (or 10...) Flash will disappear as a development tool (Adobe is already referring to Flash as the Platform, not the tool, or at least tries to beamcast it to our brains). Flash being the underlying technology, it is too hard, complex and dark to shine out as a development tool. It is an older generation. I just hope I won't be programming in 10 years ;) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
If I can, I will let you show some of my works, modest works, but I say it out loud: Flash is brilliant. You shouldn't forget that Flash is brilliant for vector artwork and timeline animations. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, Catalyst is what we want to be looking at right now. Promising. You shouldn't forget that Flash is brilliant for vector artwork and timeline animations. That's how we're using it these days internally - as an asset creation tool rather than as a programming environment. And, as Elia and others have said, it's great for non-standard UIs or for lightweight sites. It'll be interesting to see how Catalyst plays into all this. Ian On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Cedric Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, this I understand. As I view Flex, it is definitely the way to go. I even thought, that maybe, in 5 years time (or 10...) Flash will disappear as a development tool (Adobe is already referring to Flash as the Platform, not the tool, or at least tries to beamcast it to our brains). Flash being the underlying technology, it is too hard, complex and dark to shine out as a development tool. It is an older generation. I just hope I won't be programming in 10 years ;) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
sorry about the flood ;) precision: Flash/Flex/AIR is brilliant!! Flash Lite is something I would like to hide. If I can, I will let you show some of my works, modest works, but I say it out loud: Flash is brilliant. You shouldn't forget that Flash is brilliant for vector artwork and timeline animations. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:17 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. I may be totally martian here, but ... hmmm, besides the FLA part, you can externalize everything in text files too (no code in the FLA, just assets (and even...) and external AS files). This is making me think that, as always, there are big differences between the framework provided and the technology used. Start from nothing, use Flash, try to build up a framework (at least, some app building logic), all on your own, and/or with the help of other Flashcoders. Then, you discover Flex, and this gives you the framework (ie: geniuses thought about this for you). You stick to the framework, learn to structure code / applications, and then get on the next part: being efficient. With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. But all the best Flash apps are Flex, because it is ... just simply ... simpler. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can easily turn into nesting hell. I would say ANY language can lend itself to that. What you're really attacking is the concept behind XML, not MXML. XML and nesting is an ADVANTAGE in my opinion when it comes to layout. It's not great for coding non-visual logic, that's what Actionscript is for. Most Flex developers will tell you they use MXML for UI and UI effects, and they use Actionscript for logic. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Elia Morling Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 3:31 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash And who's fault is that? Anyone can write spaghetti code in any language whatever the markup. The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can easily turn into nesting hell. , unless the coders know what they are doing. The benefits of Flex databinding and UI are bogus, if you are an OOP programmer reusability exists with any OOP language. In the end it's just a language, so choose what you want. Elia ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
But to do so will require considerably more code, and is harder to read.
Similarly for the UI - yes, you can replicate everything in MXML's
layout in AS3, but it also requires more code and is harder to read.
Consider this simple layout example in MXML:
Very well said and exampled Ian!
Jason Merrill
Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support
LLD
Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash
Platform Developer Community
Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning
Blog and subscribe.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Thomas
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 3:54 AM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can
easily turn into nesting hell. , unless the coders know what they are doing.
The benefits of Flex databinding and UI are bogus, if you are an OOP
programmer reusability exists with any OOP language.
Bogus?
Not at all. The benefits are in speed of development and clarity.
It is perfectly possible to replicate databinding in AS3 (after all,
the underlying implementation _is_ AS3).
But to do so will require considerably more code, and is harder to read.
Similarly for the UI - yes, you can replicate everything in MXML's
layout in AS3, but it also requires more code and is harder to read.
Consider this simple layout example in MXML:
mx:VBox width=100% horizontalAlign=center
mx:Label text=Testing/
mx:Button label=Cancel click=dispatchEvent(new
UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true))/
/mx:VBox
And in AS3:
var vbox:VBox=new VBox();
vbox.percentWidth=100;
vbox.setStyle(horizontalAlign,center);
var label:Label=new Label();
label.text=Testing;
vbox.addChild(label);
var button:Button=new Button();
button.label=Cancel;
button.addEventListener(MouseEvent.CLICK,onCancelClicked,false,0,true);
vbox.addChild(button);
addChild(vbox);
private function onCancelClicked(ev:MouseEvent):void
{
dispatchEvent(new UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true));
}
In what way is the AS3 clearer? In what way is it easier to maintain?
In what way is it easier to see how the objects are laid out on the
screen just by looking at the code? In what way is it _faster to
develop_?
In what way is the MXML more spaghetti-like?
I agree that - as with any layout language - you can get tangled up by
burying the implementation inside the layout. That's the same sort of
issue that exists in other languages - for example, PHP. But that's
simply about learning how to use it correctly.
I think it's foolish to entirely write off a useful syntax/language
based on examples written by people who don't understand how to use it
properly.
But then, I find MXML a useful tool for layout. It's your loss if you
don't use it.
Ian
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Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Any great Flex books you'd recommend? On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Joel Stransky [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I love the responses so far. It's really helping me wrap my head around the division of the two tools. I'm going to take Jason's advice and just jump in and do something in Flex (probably using FlashDevelop) and see where I come out. The comparison example is definitely enticing and helps me realize that I can't objective until I have a taste. Even if it only makes my UI creation easier, I suppose it will be worth it. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:17 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. I may be totally martian here, but ... hmmm, besides the FLA part, you can externalize everything in text files too (no code in the FLA, just assets (and even...) and external AS files). This is making me think that, as always, there are big differences between the framework provided and the technology used. Start from nothing, use Flash, try to build up a framework (at least, some app building logic), all on your own, and/or with the help of other Flashcoders. Then, you discover Flex, and this gives you the framework (ie: geniuses thought about this for you). You stick to the framework, learn to structure code / applications, and then get on the next part: being efficient. With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. But all the best Flash apps are Flex, because it is ... just simply ... simpler. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I love the responses so far. It's really helping me wrap my head around the division of the two tools. I'm going to take Jason's advice and just jump in and do something in Flex (probably using FlashDevelop) and see where I come out. The comparison example is definitely enticing and helps me realize that I can't objective until I have a taste. Even if it only makes my UI creation easier, I suppose it will be worth it. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:17 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. I may be totally martian here, but ... hmmm, besides the FLA part, you can externalize everything in text files too (no code in the FLA, just assets (and even...) and external AS files). This is making me think that, as always, there are big differences between the framework provided and the technology used. Start from nothing, use Flash, try to build up a framework (at least, some app building logic), all on your own, and/or with the help of other Flashcoders. Then, you discover Flex, and this gives you the framework (ie: geniuses thought about this for you). You stick to the framework, learn to structure code / applications, and then get on the next part: being efficient. With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. But all the best Flash apps are Flex, because it is ... just simply ... simpler. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
perhaps that's a bit of a problem that flex has; any flex app using default components and skin will look like it has been build in flex any flex app using custom components /custom skin will look like it has been build in flash so if I try to find cool flex apps.. well I haven't seen many because the cool ones are hiding too well :) I wish there were some good examples online of advanced skinning with flex, maybe I'm not looking into the right places, but all the examples of flex that I looked into made me shudder and turn quickly back to flash,simply because most examples/tutorials use the default skins and looks horrible. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:17 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Getting back to the original question, Ross, another benefit of the Flex compiler - whether you're writing MXML or AS3 - over the Flash IDE is that all the source files for a Flex app (barring assets - images etc.) are text files. Text files are much easier to deal with in version control systems such as SVN or CVS - and version control systems are critical for development within a group of developers. I may be totally martian here, but ... hmmm, besides the FLA part, you can externalize everything in text files too (no code in the FLA, just assets (and even...) and external AS files). This is making me think that, as always, there are big differences between the framework provided and the technology used. Start from nothing, use Flash, try to build up a framework (at least, some app building logic), all on your own, and/or with the help of other Flashcoders. Then, you discover Flex, and this gives you the framework (ie: geniuses thought about this for you). You stick to the framework, learn to structure code / applications, and then get on the next part: being efficient. With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. But all the best Flash apps are Flex, because it is ... just simply ... simpler. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- M.A. van't Kruis http://www.malatze.nl/ ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
You could consider the The Essential Guide to Flex 3 book by FriendsOfED. I consider it as a nice book for beginners in the world of Flex. More information at: http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590599500 ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I like Adobe's Flex training from the source series, and also the O'Reilly Flex Cookbook. Usually if you stick with Friends of Ed, O'Reilly, or Adobe press, you can't go wrong. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weyert de Boer Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:57 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You could consider the The Essential Guide to Flex 3 book by FriendsOfED. I consider it as a nice book for beginners in the world of Flex. More information at: http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590599500 ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Of course, this problem might disappear when Flex 4 is production ready! Flex 4 makes skinning and similar activities a lot easier. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
That would be very cool, I think people like me, who are still using flash but only use it for asset management and flashdevelop(or whatever) for coding, would be more motivated in making a hop over. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Weyert de Boer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, this problem might disappear when Flex 4 is production ready! Flex 4 makes skinning and similar activities a lot easier. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- M.A. van't Kruis http://www.malatze.nl/ ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Thanks for all the input everyone... Nothing like a good ol' software debate ; - ) That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. This was my question in the original email, not which was tool is better. Should be fun experimenting in both. Also, thanks for the book recommendation. Ross -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Merrill, Jason Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:15 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
(Don't know if anyone's seen the new proposals for Flex and Coldfusion demoed at Max... essentially in a single MXML file you now write both the client-side code _and_ the server-side code, and Flex and Coldfusion between them sort out which code is published to where during the compile phase... brilliant idea. I've never used Coldfusion, but I have to say that this has tempted me...) Yes, that was an AWESOME demo. I've never used CF but what they showed with the two rocked and is quite tempting to start digging into it. Lots of interesting stuff came out of this years MAX. All I gotta say is my workload just tripled with the amount info they released. No sleep for the flash guys! B. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with Jason. And in particular, at the moment, I'm loving the CSS skinning - even if it's still not particularly well implemented in terms of selectors etc., the skinnability of Flex components (and how easy it is to add CSS support to your own components) is excellent. We've been experimenting lately with adding all sorts of things to CSS files - whole themes, including sounds as well as appearance. :-) Flash for animations, unusual user interfaces, tight compact minimalist code. Flex for applications with structured layouts, form elements, lots of data and server calls. (Don't know if anyone's seen the new proposals for Flex and Coldfusion demoed at Max... essentially in a single MXML file you now write both the client-side code _and_ the server-side code, and Flex and Coldfusion between them sort out which code is published to where during the compile phase... brilliant idea. I've never used Coldfusion, but I have to say that this has tempted me...) Ian On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:04 PM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. That's what bothers me about Flex, and maybe that's where the comparisons are at; Maybe shouldn't be comparig flash and flex, but more flex vs ajax. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- M.A. van't Kruis http://www.malatze.nl/ ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I find Flex far, far better than Flash for writing code. Code hinting, the debugger, refactoring and the general environment are very good. My current programs are all Flex ActionScript projects which have no mxml. As Ian says, Flash is great for building vector based assets for use with Flex. John Ian Thomas wrote: You shouldn't forget that Flash is brilliant for vector artwork and timeline animations. That's how we're using it these days internally - as an asset creation tool rather than as a programming environment. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. This really depends. I've used flash created animated navigations in flex. They were created in flash exported to SWC and then made into a flex component. Zing it had! B. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cedric Muller Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:07 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash You are right. I may have been mislead here, but I still think that a site like EcoDaZoo or sites done by agencies like Gringo, or Firstborn are Flash, not Flex. I am getting specific here, which is irrelevant regarding this thread. Cedric With both you can be efficient. As a proof, all the best Flash sites are Flash, not Flex. How do you know? I have seen some amazing Flash sites I thought were build in the Flash IDE, and I found out later they were Flex apps, with some really great skinning going on. I have also seen some flex-like sites that were cool that I discovered were Flash IDE made sites. But in a lot of cases, there is no real way to tell what the development environment was - maybe if you pulled apart the .swf you could tell, but other than that, it's difficult. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Having come from a background of bespoke database-driven development where bare functionality is the primary consideration above gloss, I can say that Flex is a breath of fresh air. For many companies flash is dismissed as a serious contender for serious work because as those companies know, flash is just for silly animations and froth. There's always been a barrier to using flash for serious development in large companies because it's not regarded as a 'serious' development platform and those companies will go with Microsoft technologies or use Java. Flex is the development system that can appeal to those companies because the development teams that work in those companies can understand it's paradigm and they understand the toolset and language. This isn't some anti-flash statement it's just the way things are. Traditional developers don't understand the timeline, don't want to understand it and want a development system that works like the 'serious' languages they are used to. Flex gives them that and as a bonus it gives them the sophisticated effects and UI they didn't have access to before. It allows them to work with the server-side technologies they are used to and they don't get the ribbing they would be prone to if they suggested using flash for a front-end. This is a Flash forum and everything seems to be being discussed as though Flex is some kind of Flash killer or replacement. It isn't and Flex goes where flash has not trod. Flex is really complimentary to flash, not a replacement. There are always going to be superb flash sites with timeline animation and all kinds of bells and whistles. Flex doesn't compete with that. If a Flex developer want's things that are better done in flash they'll use flash and integrate that component with flex. You can write badly in Flex. You can write badly in Flash. You can just write badly even without either Flex or Flash. Flex and Flash fit different niches with a broad crossover between them. It's not Flex vs. Flash - it's Flex, Flex and Flash or just Flash, depending on what you want to achieve. Paul - Original Message - From: Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Meinte van't Kruis wrote: Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. That's what bothers me about Flex, and maybe that's where the comparisons are at; Maybe shouldn't be comparig flash and flex, but more flex vs ajax. Hmm, didn't Jesse Warden discuss such problems with Flex on his blog? ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. This really depends. I've used flash created animated navigations in flex. They were created in flash exported to SWC and then made into a flex component. Zing it had! Uh, but wait, you still used Flash to create the zing... you didn't use Flex to create the zing. Flash is much better at the zing, even though Flex can do some as well. I think we're on the same page though, just saying it differently,. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
This is a Flash forum and everything seems to be being discussed as though Flex is some kind of Flash killer or replacement. It isn't and Flex goes where flash has not trod. Flex is really complimentary to flash, not a replacement. Exactly, well said. I don't think anyone is bashing Flash IDE at all, though some may have taken it that way. They are two different environments that both in the end produce .swfs. Both rock, they compliment each other. They also both have their annoyances. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
MXML is a piece of crap, mixture of XML and AS code. Very bad overview and readability. That's an interesting take on things. For me, I believe the exact opposite - the separation of UI/layout into MXML makes perfect sense, and follows the model used by many other desktop application development environments. UI and layout fits sensibly in a declarative framework, which is what MXML gives you. The only AS you need in your MXML is that for event handlers. Everything else can be extracted into separate AS files quite easily. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
But that's the point! They work well together! ;) B. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. This really depends. I've used flash created animated navigations in flex. They were created in flash exported to SWC and then made into a flex component. Zing it had! Uh, but wait, you still used Flash to create the zing... you didn't use Flex to create the zing. Flash is much better at the zing, even though Flex can do some as well. I think we're on the same page though, just saying it differently,. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, that was an AWESOME demo. I've never used CF but what they showed with the two rocked and is quite tempting to start digging into it. I think that CF is by far the best back-end platform for Flex apps right now, never mind what's coming down the pike. CF natively supports AMF, includes LCDS Community Edition, it's dead simple to write services in CF, and if you do use LCDS, provides a one-click ORM generator to build your CF beans/gateway/assembler and your corresponding AS value objects. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
MXML should be used for layout as described here: http://www.boostworthy.com/blog/?p=216 However, it's often used for spagetti coding. The misuse of something is not an accurate measure of its value. Every Flash programmer should know this, given that 90% of the Flash content on the web is annoying, time-wasting crap that would be better done in HTML. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Notoriously, version control systems are bad at handling differences/resolving differences between binary files, and the .fla format is binary. With all due respect, and without getting in the middle of the 'war' that is taking place here: I code in AS3 very heavily and nearly 0% of my code is in the FLA file, it's all in separate class files, which are text files - so this benefit of flex/cvs only applies to projects that are using time-line animations or the vector graphic assets. Presumably in flex you would _also_ be using fla components to do custom vector assets and time-line animations [the hybrid approach], so the advantage of flex over flash for CVS is totally moot, IMHO. Flex uses flash fla's when needed; just like AS3 uses flash fla's when needed too. With regards to the MXML vs. AS3. MXML is great, but it's not impossible to do it all via AS3 and have a great interface doing it. I've written re-usable classes that take care of much of the UI advantages of MXML; making MXML less of a vital addition to my pallet than if I was fresh to Flash/Flex. If I want a liquid design, I just initialize my custom liquid AS3 class; if I want a left nav, I just instantiate a leftNav class [and pass it the UI element/object as part of the constructor]. And unlike components that need to be skinned, I can set up my AS3 files to simply accept ANY asset/object I want; the only pre-requisit is that the asset follows some standard convention. So for me to make a custom pre-loader couldn't be more simple. I would agree that all languages can become spaghetti. AS3 is no exception as I can personally testify to major de-noodling in my painful but well paid debugging career... ;) The pros and cons listed between the two by others are valid. Let me also add that Flex is really great if you were a developer/programmer coming to Flash; whereas AS3/Flash is more approachable if you are a designer/animator coming to Programming. Since Flex there has been a flood gate of programmers from other languages moving to flash because the Flex environment is familiar to them; hence easily absorbed - this is a goodness for Flash because Flash has been evolving. But I've been playing with flash now ever since Flash 3; and I can assure you that back then there was mainly designers and animators who were 'advanced' if they also knew HTML, let alone Javascript or Java or C. Those original flash people have either become hybrid designer/animator/programmers; left the boat, or focussed on time-line/animation/UI design at the exclusion of the programming evolution. Seb. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yep - but to be honest the .fla still contains all the links to the external assets. Erm, Ian, all you need to reference in the FLA is ONE Class file; and that class file can then contain ALL the references to all the subclasses; so you never need to edit the FLA after day1 unless the stage size changes... or you need to change the publishing path. :) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, too bad it runs on Java. I never been able to get that going on my webservers under Centos/Debian. g Yes, that was an AWESOME demo. I've never used CF but what they showed with the two rocked and is quite tempting to start digging into it. I think that CF is by far the best back-end platform for Flex apps right now, never mind what's coming down the pike. CF natively supports AMF, includes LCDS Community Edition, it's dead simple to write services in CF, and if you do use LCDS, provides a one-click ORM generator to build your CF beans/gateway/assembler and your corresponding AS value objects. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Well said. Paul Andrews wrote: Having come from a background of bespoke database-driven development where bare functionality is the primary consideration above gloss, I can say that Flex is a breath of fresh air. For many companies flash is dismissed as a serious contender for serious work because as those companies know, flash is just for silly animations and froth. There's always been a barrier to using flash for serious development in large companies because it's not regarded as a 'serious' development platform and those companies will go with Microsoft technologies or use Java. Flex is the development system that can appeal to those companies because the development teams that work in those companies can understand it's paradigm and they understand the toolset and language. This isn't some anti-flash statement it's just the way things are. Traditional developers don't understand the timeline, don't want to understand it and want a development system that works like the 'serious' languages they are used to. Flex gives them that and as a bonus it gives them the sophisticated effects and UI they didn't have access to before. It allows them to work with the server-side technologies they are used to and they don't get the ribbing they would be prone to if they suggested using flash for a front-end. This is a Flash forum and everything seems to be being discussed as though Flex is some kind of Flash killer or replacement. It isn't and Flex goes where flash has not trod. Flex is really complimentary to flash, not a replacement. There are always going to be superb flash sites with timeline animation and all kinds of bells and whistles. Flex doesn't compete with that. If a Flex developer want's things that are better done in flash they'll use flash and integrate that component with flex. You can write badly in Flex. You can write badly in Flash. You can just write badly even without either Flex or Flash. Flex and Flash fit different niches with a broad crossover between them. It's not Flex vs. Flash - it's Flex, Flex and Flash or just Flash, depending on what you want to achieve. Paul - Original Message - From: Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Sure - I mean again, it just comes down to what KIND of sites you are comparing - a cool site RIA could be equally cool as a cool 3D Flash site like EcoDaZoo (which was done with Papervision3d by the way, and could have been done in Flex - if there was a need for the Flex framework) - but comparing one site with another for coolness is really subjective, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If a site dynamically allows product selection interactions with effects was seen as cool - and a site like EcoDaZoo was done with Flash + Papervision and is thought of as cool, well, which one is cooler? You can't do the comparision because they are completely different types of sites. Yes, for sites that have a lot of UI zing - animations and effects, and really wild transitions and layouts, well, Flex would not be the best choice. That's why you have to decide which tool is best for what kind of project you have. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes, too bad it runs on Java. I never been able to get that going on my webservers under Centos/Debian. g If you're serious about running CF on those distros, you might find this site helpful: http://www.talkingtree.com/ Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Dave Watts wrote: Yes, too bad it runs on Java. I never been able to get that going on my webservers under Centos/Debian. g If you're serious about running CF on those distros, you might find this site helpful: http://www.talkingtree.com/ Thanks! I will have a look at it. Currently, I am using RubyAMF and some home-brew stuff to make it all work. Getting Ruby/Rails going together with the Passenger module is terrible easy (www.phusion.nl). ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Hi Ian,
While it is true that to write this code [below] in AS3 it would take
more lines of code; this is not true once you have done it 'once' and
you can then re-use your code.
For example: I made a class called 'AdvButton' which extends 'Button' a
long time ago and I re-use it in all my projects. I then extended the
AdvButton with another class called 'WrapButton' which accepts a GUI
element and automatically sizes the invisible button to match, events
are defaulted to my cross-project standard, and position is matched to
passed object... Making it so trivial now to add interactive visual
elements..
So if I want to array an interface I just call a loop, pass a visual
element and viola, I am done. Better still, once I write a class that
does a loop-placement, I can then re-call that same class from any new
projects...
So yes: its more work once, but only the first time. Once the AS is
written, It's very fast and the liens of code to write are
super-minimal; just like in Flex.
example:
Flash file [with visual assets]
^
|
Core [extends MovieClip]
^
|
Navigation [extends extends Sprite]
^
|
WrapButton [extends AdvButton]
^
|
AdvButton [extends Button]
^
|
Button
In my Core all I need to write that is project-specific is:
public function Core ()
{
new ProcessXML (xml/nav.xml,this,returnFunction);
}
public function returnFunction (__xmldata:XML):void
{
leftNavHolder = new Sprite ();
var margin = 10; //pixels between each nav element
var vertical = true; //whether the nav is vertical or horizontal
leftNav = new Navigation
(__xmldata,NavItem,leftNavHolder,margin,vertical);
//Where 'NavItem' is a movieclip Class asset in the *.fla that follows
//established UI standards the Navigation is expecting.
leftNavHolder.x = 20; //screen position X
leftNavHolder.y = 20; //screen position Y
this.addChild (leftNavHolder);
}
Where I feel your comparison falls short is that you are assuming that
the AS2/3 person would code every UI logic from scratch, which is just
not true!!
I could do the same you implied by making a class that handles all the
placement, event association and adding children to the timeline and
then encapsulate that into a programmer-friendly instantiation process:
var myButton:AdvButton = new AdvButton (UserEvent.CANCEL,true);
vBox.addChild (myButton);
And if you wanted, you could also include the 'label' as part of it too;
((would depend though on context if that would be useful to abstract or
not.))
Long story short: Once I have this above interaction established, I can
now create any navigation you want, left aligned, right aligned and with
any margin I want between what ever visual element I want in just 5
lines of code; which can be even less, if you don't mind density...
-=-=-
So in my opinion the real advantages of Flex over Flash for
UI/data-binding is:
1. A standard that is commonly shared in the industry, making it easier
for teams to develop collaboratively. [I pray my system makes sense to
anyone, but it's still a custom-made system and thus by definition, less
interchangeable]
2. A boon for people who are new to Flash and don't have dozens/hundreds
of pre-made AS classes already made from other projects that they can
re-use.
Sincerely,
Sebastian.
Ian Thomas wrote:
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The language itself lends itself to spaghetti coding, because MXML can
easily turn into nesting hell. , unless the coders know what they are doing.
The benefits of Flex databinding and UI are bogus, if you are an OOP
programmer reusability exists with any OOP language.
Bogus?
Not at all. The benefits are in speed of development and clarity.
It is perfectly possible to replicate databinding in AS3 (after all,
the underlying implementation _is_ AS3).
But to do so will require considerably more code, and is harder to read.
Similarly for the UI - yes, you can replicate everything in MXML's
layout in AS3, but it also requires more code and is harder to read.
Consider this simple layout example in MXML:
mx:VBox width=100% horizontalAlign=center
mx:Label text=Testing/
mx:Button label=Cancel click=dispatchEvent(new
UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true))/
/mx:VBox
And in AS3:
var vbox:VBox=new VBox();
vbox.percentWidth=100;
vbox.setStyle(horizontalAlign,center);
var label:Label=new Label();
label.text=Testing;
vbox.addChild(label);
var button:Button=new Button();
button.label=Cancel;
button.addEventListener(MouseEvent.CLICK,onCancelClicked,false,0,true);
vbox.addChild(button);
addChild(vbox);
private function onCancelClicked(ev:MouseEvent):void
{
dispatchEvent(new UserEvent(UserEvent.CANCEL,true));
}
In what way is the AS3 clearer? In what way is it easier to maintain?
In what way is it easier to see how the objects are laid out on the
screen just by looking at the code? In what way is it _faster to
develop_?
In what way is the MXML
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
So in my opinion the real advantages of Flex over Flash for UI/data-binding is: Sebastian, This discussion has barely touched on databinding (just one or two mentions of it being an advantage of the native Flash framework over Flex), so I'm starting to wonder, have you done any databinding in Flex? Databinding doesn't exist in Flash CS3 or Flash CS4 frameworks, it's simply not a feature like it is in the Flex 2/3 framework. Have you done much work with Flex before? Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I see that many people can't decide wheter to use flex. I can't. So, i think i am going to wait for Thermo. Does anyone know the release year and month? I hope that Thermo will really fill the gap between Flash and Flex. If it will, i am sure to start learning Thermo. *Pedro Damian Kostelec* [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So in my opinion the real advantages of Flex over Flash for UI/data-binding is: Sebastian, This discussion has barely touched on databinding (just one or two mentions of it being an advantage of the native Flash framework over Flex), so I'm starting to wonder, have you done any databinding in Flex? Databinding doesn't exist in Flash CS3 or Flash CS4 frameworks, it's simply not a feature like it is in the Flex 2/3 framework. Have you done much work with Flex before? Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I'm sorry, I don't really buy that argument.
What it sounds like you are describing is the creation of a component.
Fine - you can do that in AS3 or MXML; or a mix of the two. Doesn't
really matter which.
Then - surely - for every project you need to stitch together your
components. Because in no two projects are the same components
arranged in the same way.
What I (and others) have been saying is that MXML is a pretty good
solution for that phase - the layout.
I'm not saying MXML is the be-all and end-all. It absolutely isn't. I
really like - and use - AS3. But MXML is _useful_ as part of the
view/layout definition; it's an easy, readable, concise shorthand for
connecting things together. There's no reason you can't use AS3. But
that's no reason to argue _against_ MXML, particularly.
What you seem to be saying is 'but I can achieve the same in AS3 with
a bit of work first'. Fine. What you haven't said is 'and I think
using MXML is a bad idea because...'
I'm not even really sure why this is an argument, and exactly what you
are arguing.
Yes - with a bunch of coding up front - such as you describe - you can
minimise the amount of AS3 you need to write each time.
But I'm describing Flex/AS3/MXML straight out of the box. Why write a
bunch of code up front that you don't actually need to? Why fix what
isn't broken? If you love writing your own libraries - great, go
ahead. If you feel the Flex components don't suit your needs - again,
go ahead. My argument was AS3 is more verbose and less readable for
layout than MXML. That's true however you spin it.
At the root of it, MXML is just AS3. It just goes through a
translation stage first. I'm not clear why it seems to offend you so
much.
What I was answering was Elia's post stating that 'it's crap'. I find
that a poor value-judgement. As I've said in other mails - we use it.
It's a useful tool. There are others. If you choose not to use it,
then that's fine.
I'm pretty sure the original original question was asking about the
situations in which you'd use Flash over Flex, and vice versa, and
what might be the technical reasons for doing so. I think we've
drifted. MXML isn't Flex. AS3 isn't Flash.
Ian
(I think I've had enough of this, now - I just seem to be repeating myself...)
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:52 PM, sebastian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Ian,
While it is true that to write this code [below] in AS3 it would take more
lines of code; this is not true once you have done it 'once' and you can
then re-use your code.
For example: I made a class called 'AdvButton' which extends 'Button' a long
time ago and I re-use it in all my projects. I then extended the AdvButton
with another class called 'WrapButton' which accepts a GUI element and
automatically sizes the invisible button to match, events are defaulted to
my cross-project standard, and position is matched to passed object...
Making it so trivial now to add interactive visual elements..
So if I want to array an interface I just call a loop, pass a visual element
and viola, I am done. Better still, once I write a class that does a
loop-placement, I can then re-call that same class from any new projects...
So yes: its more work once, but only the first time. Once the AS is written,
It's very fast and the liens of code to write are super-minimal; just like
in Flex.
example:
Flash file [with visual assets]
^
|
Core [extends MovieClip]
^
|
Navigation [extends extends Sprite]
^
|
WrapButton [extends AdvButton]
^
|
AdvButton [extends Button]
^
|
Button
In my Core all I need to write that is project-specific is:
public function Core ()
{
new ProcessXML (xml/nav.xml,this,returnFunction);
}
public function returnFunction (__xmldata:XML):void
{
leftNavHolder = new Sprite ();
var margin = 10; //pixels between each nav element
var vertical = true; //whether the nav is vertical or horizontal
leftNav = new Navigation (__xmldata,NavItem,leftNavHolder,margin,vertical);
//Where 'NavItem' is a movieclip Class asset in the *.fla that follows
//established UI standards the Navigation is expecting.
leftNavHolder.x = 20; //screen position X
leftNavHolder.y = 20; //screen position Y
this.addChild (leftNavHolder);
}
Where I feel your comparison falls short is that you are assuming that the
AS2/3 person would code every UI logic from scratch, which is just not
true!!
I could do the same you implied by making a class that handles all the
placement, event association and adding children to the timeline and then
encapsulate that into a programmer-friendly instantiation process:
var myButton:AdvButton = new AdvButton (UserEvent.CANCEL,true);
vBox.addChild (myButton);
And if you wanted, you could also include the 'label' as part of it too;
((would depend though on context if that would be useful to abstract or
not.))
Long story short: Once I have this above interaction established, I can now
create any navigation you want, left
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I hope that Thermo will really fill the gap between Flash and Flex. If it will, i am sure to start learning Thermo. Thermo produces MXML, which is what Flex uses (partially) to describe the resulting .swf. So it's still helping you with Flex, and therefore, you're going to want to learn Flex if you care about understanding the code Thermo helps you write. I'm not sure it really has a relation to Flash per se in the sense you are thinking of as it can take design comps from Photoshop, Fireworks, etc (not sure if it will take designs from Flash CS4). I could be wrong though, I missed Max this year. :( I think the term Flex is kind of confusing people though, as it can mean different things just like Flash cam. Sometimes people use Flex to refer to the framework and SDK, sometimes as Flexbuilder, sometimes as the technology, sometimes as MXML (and sometimes for working out at the gym). It's like how people confuse Flash with Flash CS3, the Flash CS framework or the Flash Platform (which has many tools that create content for it, including Flex, Thermo, Captivate, etc.) Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pedro Kostelec Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:24 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash I see that many people can't decide wheter to use flex. I can't. So, i think i am going to wait for Thermo. Does anyone know the release year and month? I hope that Thermo will really fill the gap between Flash and Flex. If it will, i am sure to start learning Thermo. *Pedro Damian Kostelec* [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So in my opinion the real advantages of Flex over Flash for UI/data-binding is: Sebastian, This discussion has barely touched on databinding (just one or two mentions of it being an advantage of the native Flash framework over Flex), so I'm starting to wonder, have you done any databinding in Flex? Databinding doesn't exist in Flash CS3 or Flash CS4 frameworks, it's simply not a feature like it is in the Flex 2/3 framework. Have you done much work with Flex before? Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Hi Ian, Not trying to say MXML isn't good, or that it isn't the best choice; like I hope I stated clearly earlier, I agree with all the arguments for why Flex is the better choice for the reasons given. What I was trying to do, is to clarify that I felt your comparison of code isn't really true in a real-world situation because one is likely to use a lot more abstractions and a lot less manual UI programming in AS3 than you were implying. This simplification might mislead someone into thinking you can't also achieve the same UI abstraction in AS3 as you can in MXML. But the truth is, you can -- just not out of the box. Then - surely - for every project you need to stitch together your components. Because in no two projects are the same components arranged in the same way. Well, 99% of all the UI that is ever made can be viewed as a 'component' -if thats what you want to call it. Yes and no, it's not all that many when you think about it, and 99% of all interfaces are the same. There is a 'button' it has different roll over states, there is some associated animation. Sometimes you have arrays of similar buttons etc... the permutations are not all that complex or extensive... For organic interfaces that don't follow a standard you will need to write custom code, but surely this is the same in Flex. I've had great success writing AS3 core classes [aka components]. What I (and others) have been saying is that MXML is a pretty good solution for that phase - the layout. Agreed. I'm not saying MXML is the be-all and end-all. It absolutely isn't. I really like - and use - AS3. But MXML is _useful_ as part of the view/layout definition; it's an easy, readable, concise shorthand for connecting things together. There's no reason you can't use AS3. But that's no reason to argue _against_ MXML, particularly. Sure, and as I stated at the end of my last post; especially when you don't already have a lot of AS3 classes hanging around in your com folder. Which I do, so Flex is less useful for my solo flash projects. What you seem to be saying is 'but I can achieve the same in AS3 with a bit of work first'. Fine. What you haven't said is 'and I think using MXML is a bad idea because...' That's true, because I don't think MXML is bad! :D [I'm not black and white] I'm not even really sure why this is an argument, and exactly what you are arguing. Just trying to clarify that we AS3 programmers don't code UI from scratch either! We also use UI classes just like you do in MXML; only ours are not 'out-of-the-box'. But I'm describing Flex/AS3/MXML straight out of the box. Why write a bunch of code up front that you don't actually need to? Why fix what isn't broken? Well skinning is a b*tch, and custom classes give me more flexibility - granted it's not always worth the effort. But somehow it is for me. If you love writing your own libraries - great, go ahead. If you feel the Flex components don't suit your needs - again, go ahead. My argument was AS3 is more verbose and less readable for layout than MXML. That's true however you spin it. Flex is great for applications; and especially for team-based application development. I'm using Flex to work on application development with others, and it's good -- faster is some regards, convoluted in others. Granted I am still a little sappling in Flex compared to Flash. Like I already stated, I think Flex is great and ultimately; better for UI because not all coders have, or would want to, code their own UI classes. At the root of it, MXML is just AS3. It just goes through a translation stage first. I'm not clear why it seems to offend you so much. It doesn't! that was another person... :P What I was answering was Elia's post stating that 'it's crap'. I find that a poor value-judgement. As I've said in other mails - we use it. It's a useful tool. There are others. If you choose not to use it, then that's fine. Yeah, I don't think it's crap. It has a really great value, and like AS3; you can code it like crap, or you can code it well. I'm pretty sure the original original question was asking about the situations in which you'd use Flash over Flex, and vice versa, and what might be the technical reasons for doing so. I think we've drifted. MXML isn't Flex. AS3 isn't Flash. Oh we've totally drifted! But that it was interesting to read all the emotions... ;) Always love your contributions Ian, All the best, Sebastian. (I think I've had enough of this, now - I just seem to be repeating myself...) Yeah, me too! ;) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Hi Merrill, This discussion has barely touched on databinding (just one or two mentions of it being an advantage of the native Flash framework over Flex), so I'm starting to wonder, have you done any databinding in Flex? Databinding doesn't exist in Flash CS3 or Flash CS4 frameworks, it's simply not a feature like it is in the Flex 2/3 framework. Have you done much work with Flex before? Sorry didn't mean to glob in data-binding. I'm using Flex to develop 2 applications right now with a team, one of which is on PureMVC. And it's good, still learning, but learning fairly quickly. Definitely better for this utility than using Flash to do the same because of the standards we can share. :) Best, Sebastian. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:49 PM, sebastian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just trying to clarify that we AS3 programmers don't code UI from scratch either! We also use UI classes just like you do in MXML; only ours are not 'out-of-the-box'. Okay - last comment. :-D Just want to raise a flag to say I'm an AS3 programmer too. :-D Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
- Original Message - From: Pedro Kostelec [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash I see that many people can't decide wheter to use flex. I can't. So, i think i am going to wait for Thermo. Does anyone know the release year and month? I hope that Thermo will really fill the gap between Flash and Flex. If it will, i am sure to start learning Thermo. From what I've seen of thermo, it's a bit like having fireworks as a gui design tool for flex - it spews out all that you need to translate the design created in Thermo for use straight off in Flex. A lot of people are getting quite excited about it but my gut feeling is that there will be a lot of limitations - for example there may not be the concept of a round-trip for code/design iterations. I don't see thermo as some kind of stepping stone between Flash and Flex or in any way a replacement for Flash in conjunction with Flex. Maybe I'm wrong. Really speaking a discussion on Thermo should be in another thread probably. A lot of Flex developers hardly bother with the existing design mode in FlexBuilder. Paul *Pedro Damian Kostelec* [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
And if you install the CF extension for FlexBuilder half your app is written for you :-) Breeze presentation: http://adobe.breezecentral.com/p60842493/ Muzak - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Yes, that was an AWESOME demo. I've never used CF but what they showed with the two rocked and is quite tempting to start digging into it. I think that CF is by far the best back-end platform for Flex apps right now, never mind what's coming down the pike. CF natively supports AMF, includes LCDS Community Edition, it's dead simple to write services in CF, and if you do use LCDS, provides a one-click ORM generator to build your CF beans/gateway/assembler and your corresponding AS value objects. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
- Original Message - From: Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] A lot of Flex developers hardly bother with the existing design mode in FlexBuilder. Paul There's a Design mode in FlexBuilder??? :) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
[Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
If you are building an application-like user interface with buttons, forms, dialog boxes, etc, I would really recommend Flex. MXML lets you write such things very concisely. It has a powerful layout engine and a nice set of containers which automate a lot of stuff you'd have to write by hand otherwise. If your program is mostly animation and graphics, I guess Flex wouldn't have a lot to offer. Flex is certainly a big chunk to add to your binary size, so I wouldn't choose it lightly. We wrote playcrafter.com in Flex and have no regrets about the choice. You can certainly write anything in plain AS3 that you can write in MXML with the Flex library. You just need to decide if the code in the Flex library is code you'd need to be writing anyway. Dave On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Hi, Flex is more geared towards applications than Flash - not to say you have to build applications with Flex and websites with Flash though. Flex's interface is based around coding, but as a bonus, if you have Adobe's Flex Builder rather than just the Flex SDK + Eclipse, you can also use the drag and drop wysiwyg editor to start building application interfaces very quickly. Behind the scenes, there are lots of useful bits built in - data binding is a hugely useful thing in Flex and the component set is a lot richer: I am building an application at the moment with Flex and am currently spiking some ideas which involve using a lot of data from the server. I have found it very quick to get some ideas up and running with minimal coding - just wiring up drag-n-drop, plus data handling to display data - this is where it becomes nice, but I am also heavily involved with a touch screen interface for a product we make that runs out of Flash, admittedly it uses AS1 2 coding, but it's in the state where it is quicker to add stuff the Flash way - I am looking at porting this over to AS3, but am not decided whether to use Flash or Flex yet. As it's touchscreen, lots of the components are very simple large because they are operated by fingers, so custom building / skinning them is required. Saying this, I have built a CDROM Flash based App couple of websites using Flex - skinned them with the Flash IDE + Flex components FLA. With the websites, I did create my own mini-framework which basically meant I could change the skin and the XML configuration and the position of screens to build the sites much quicker. Needless to say, you can build stuff in Flash it just depends on what your approach is - coding / visual and also how willing you are to spend a lot of time learning about the other side visual / coding... I am stuck somewhere to the coding side of centre, but use Flex Flash for different things and prefer neither (although I use Flash Develop for coding Flash rather than the IDE because the Flash IDE sucks for coding) It's totally up to you - I recommend playing with Flex if you have the time and inclination and don't mind messing with (M)XML / Script. Glen Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Glen Pike 01326 218440 www.glenpike.co.uk http://www.glenpike.co.uk ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Its a matter of development speed. Being a flash guy for the past 9ish years, after using flex, I prefer to code in flex. Much faster dev time. Fully customizable graphics, just got to get your head around the how. http://flex.org/showcase/ B. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Joel Stransky [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
MXML is a piece of crap, mixture of XML and AS code. Very bad overview and readability. Better to roll with an AS3 project in Flex, or FDT plugin for Eclipse. In regards to flex being better for UI, then you have to take into account the open source ASwing UI library for AS projects. It also has a GUI builder for building swift GUIs. Elia ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Elia, I would respond if anything you said made any logical sense or even had a remote tinge of truth, but it doesn't sorry. I'd love to see you post what you just said on [EMAIL PROTECTED] just to see the kind of responses you would get from professional Flex developers and the Adobe Flex team. Perhaps you just had a bad experience with MXML or used some bad practices in project structure. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Elia Morling Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:26 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash MXML is a piece of crap, mixture of XML and AS code. Very bad overview and readability. Better to roll with an AS3 project in Flex, or FDT plugin for Eclipse. In regards to flex being better for UI, then you have to take into account the open source ASwing UI library for AS projects. It also has a GUI builder for building swift GUIs. Elia ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/11/19, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I'm with Jason. And in particular, at the moment, I'm loving the CSS skinning - even if it's still not particularly well implemented in terms of selectors etc., the skinnability of Flex components (and how easy it is to add CSS support to your own components) is excellent. We've been experimenting lately with adding all sorts of things to CSS files - whole themes, including sounds as well as appearance. :-) Flash for animations, unusual user interfaces, tight compact minimalist code. Flex for applications with structured layouts, form elements, lots of data and server calls. (Don't know if anyone's seen the new proposals for Flex and Coldfusion demoed at Max... essentially in a single MXML file you now write both the client-side code _and_ the server-side code, and Flex and Coldfusion between them sort out which code is published to where during the compile phase... brilliant idea. I've never used Coldfusion, but I have to say that this has tempted me...) Ian On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:04 PM, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Oh yes, and I would totally agree with you Juan - some stuff just needs to be done with the timeline, no doubt about that. Cool thing though, you can also hybrid projects, where some stuff is done in Flash, some stuff in Flex. Some stuff in Actionscript, some stuff in MXML. Whatever makes the most sense for what you are doing. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Juan Pablo Califano Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:56 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/11/19, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
I doubt most would agree that being able to mark up the entire presentation layer of an application in an xml based language is 'crap'. MXML is succinct and convenient in separating presentation and control. You are welcome to your opinion but enjoy the solitude of your perspective. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Elia Morling Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:26 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash MXML is a piece of crap, mixture of XML and AS code. Very bad overview and readability. Better to roll with an AS3 project in Flex, or FDT plugin for Eclipse. In regards to flex being better for UI, then you have to take into account the open source ASwing UI library for AS projects. It also has a GUI builder for building swift GUIs. Elia ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
MXML should be used for layout as described here: http://www.boostworthy.com/blog/?p=216 However, it's often used for spagetti coding. If you want to burst your solitude bubble you can go here, or use google. :) http://www.ultrashock.com/forums/flex/mxml-do-we-need-it-87269.html Elia - Original Message - From: Lukas Ruebbelke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Flash Coders List' flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:32 AM Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash I doubt most would agree that being able to mark up the entire presentation layer of an application in an xml based language is 'crap'. MXML is succinct and convenient in separating presentation and control. You are welcome to your opinion but enjoy the solitude of your perspective. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Elia Morling Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:26 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash MXML is a piece of crap, mixture of XML and AS code. Very bad overview and readability. Better to roll with an AS3 project in Flex, or FDT plugin for Eclipse. In regards to flex being better for UI, then you have to take into account the open source ASwing UI library for AS projects. It also has a GUI builder for building swift GUIs. Elia ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Now we are on this topic: Are the components fast reskinnable ? I can guess not: That default flex preloader pops out everywhere .. Not to mention that blue-greyish backgroundcolor: If they had made the default pink that lazy man would think :) Latcho Juan Pablo Califano wrote: However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/11/19, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Is the reason this can't be answered easily because it's a really good question? So far I understand the strengths of Flex to be: liquid layouts great component selection data binding And the reasons to choose mxml over flash are: need for lots of UI need for quick prototypes I can do liquid layouts in flash and without the extra file size I really wanted to be convinced to just ditch the flash authoring tool for anything but content creation but unless my project at hand meets the needs I listed above I'm going to stick with Flash. I just don't see the point of using MXML solely for layout if that's all you're choosing flex for. Someone should build a form for determining weather or not you should use flex. It could even be built in flex! :) On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Latcho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now we are on this topic: Are the components fast reskinnable ? I can guess not: That default flex preloader pops out everywhere .. Not to mention that blue-greyish backgroundcolor: If they had made the default pink that lazy man would think :) Latcho Juan Pablo Califano wrote: However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/11/19, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Doing liquid layouts with Actionscript will take 10 times longer than doing them with MXML. And it really depends on the type of project. There is no definitive Flex is better in this area and this, but not this and this and this - that's kind of an overly simplistic way to view it. You really need to jump in and learn it, experience both tools to really know which tool is suited for which kind of projects. And Flex is NOT just for the UI aspects. See the other e-mails in this thread. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Stransky Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Is the reason this can't be answered easily because it's a really good question? So far I understand the strengths of Flex to be: liquid layouts great component selection data binding And the reasons to choose mxml over flash are: need for lots of UI need for quick prototypes I can do liquid layouts in flash and without the extra file size I really wanted to be convinced to just ditch the flash authoring tool for anything but content creation but unless my project at hand meets the needs I listed above I'm going to stick with Flash. I just don't see the point of using MXML solely for layout if that's all you're choosing flex for. Someone should build a form for determining weather or not you should use flex. It could even be built in flex! :) On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Latcho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now we are on this topic: Are the components fast reskinnable ? I can guess not: That default flex preloader pops out everywhere .. Not to mention that blue-greyish backgroundcolor: If they had made the default pink that lazy man would think :) Latcho Juan Pablo Califano wrote: However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/11/19, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Yes the components are reskinnable - super easy with CSS. MUCH easier than re-skinning components in Flash. For example, you can re-skin a Button component (or all buttons if you choose) in about 30 seconds in Flex. I don't know what you mean by the default preloader for components - that is at the application level in Flex - and you can change the way that looks too. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Latcho Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:48 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Now we are on this topic: Are the components fast reskinnable ? I can guess not: That default flex preloader pops out everywhere .. Not to mention that blue-greyish backgroundcolor: If they had made the default pink that lazy man would think :) Latcho Juan Pablo Califano wrote: However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/11/19, Merrill, Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And it's not just the advantages Flex has with comboboxes and dropdown menus and the like. There are a ton of other advantages, like for example, databinding, easy to code layout, including liquid layout, easy component creation, easy skinning, TONS of components Flash doesn't have,which are not necessarily just for applications, they could be for games and other interactions, like color pickers, charts, tree, and things like webservice components for data connections (no longer available with Flash). Flexbuilder also has bandwidth profiling and better coding tools that Flash doesn't. For fancy animation stuff, Flash is the clear choice - but anymore, I tend to look at both equally for projects. For large complex stuff, I would go with Flex, - for less complex or animation driven, I would go with Flash. However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. Jason Merrill Bank of America Instructional Technology Media · GCIB Staff Support LLD Interested in Flash Platform technologies? Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Interested in innovative ideas in Learning? Check out the Innovative Learning Blog and subscribe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dr.ache Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:22 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash unbelievable bad quality this site. would have expected something better from bmw. Joel Stransky schrieb: I'm struggling with this a bit myself. For web based applications that include lots of UI like checkboxes, tabs, dropdowns etc. Flex is the clear choice. That's what it was built for.For small flash elements like banners, animations and video, Flash is probably the best option. But what seems hard to answer is weather or not mxml is a good option for full (FWA quality) flash sites. Look at bmwusfactory.com. All Flex, but did it need to be? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Lehr, Ross (N-SGIS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this is somewhat off topic, but I'm new to the whole Flex thing. What are some of the reasons one would build something in Flex instead of Flash? Is it just a preference thing, or are there real technical reasons one should build a particular app in Flex? Thanks ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
- Original Message - From: Juan Pablo Califano [EMAIL PROTECTED] I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano And you can easily bring those into your Flex project :) You can add labels to your timeline animations and then use those in Flex in combination with states. http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/articles/flex_flash.html The actual article is a pdf: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/articles/flex_flash/flex_flash.pdf regards, Muzak ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
With Coldfusion you can compile mxml on the server (and have it cached). Think that's been in there since Flex 1.0. Actually if I remember correctly, Flex 1.0 was only compilable on the server. MXNA was one of those early CF/Flex apps. May in the meantime have changed/been upgraded. http://www.asfusion.com/mxna/ Coldfusion has something called Flash Forms: http://www.asfusion.com/blog/entry/coldfusion-flash-forms-macromedia http://www.adobe.com/devnet/coldfusion/articles/flashforms.html http://www.asfusion.com/apps/realestate/ Totally agree on the CSS part. There's nothing like it.. For those not familiar with Flex, it's component framework etc.. have a look at these: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/samples/code_explorer/ http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/samples/style_explorer/ And make sure to check out the source code for those applications (right click on them - view source). The new CF stuff sounds very interesting!! regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: Ian Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash I'm with Jason. And in particular, at the moment, I'm loving the CSS skinning - even if it's still not particularly well implemented in terms of selectors etc., the skinnability of Flex components (and how easy it is to add CSS support to your own components) is excellent. We've been experimenting lately with adding all sorts of things to CSS files - whole themes, including sounds as well as appearance. :-) Flash for animations, unusual user interfaces, tight compact minimalist code. Flex for applications with structured layouts, form elements, lots of data and server calls. (Don't know if anyone's seen the new proposals for Flex and Coldfusion demoed at Max... essentially in a single MXML file you now write both the client-side code _and_ the server-side code, and Flex and Coldfusion between them sort out which code is published to where during the compile phase... brilliant idea. I've never used Coldfusion, but I have to say that this has tempted me...) Ian ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
- Original Message - From: Elia Morling [EMAIL PROTECTED] MXML should be used for layout as described here: http://www.boostworthy.com/blog/?p=216 However, it's often used for spagetti coding. And who's fault is that? Anyone can write spaghetti code in any language whatever the markup. If you want to burst your solitude bubble you can go here, or use google. :) http://www.ultrashock.com/forums/flex/mxml-do-we-need-it-87269.html Elia Rubish article and ditto comments from people who had a few bad experiences due to having been part of bad dev teams. The same statement from above applies. I think this comment on the article sums it up quite nicely: Flex is about CODE!. If you don't know AS you will never go beyond a certain point, and should partner with a coder to architect the app and get the job done. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash
Ever since I started using Flex 2 (I had been playing with Flex 1 a bit) I gave up on Flash. I haven't done a single AS3 project in Flash and hardly touched on Flash CS3, only to make changes to older (AS2) projects. And every time I open one of those older projects I wanna close them ASAP. I agree on the default look and feel of components. Apps that are not skinned or have some nice graphical touch to them are kinda disappointing, like the BMW site that was posted.. very poor IMO. The default preloader is a bit harder to skin, which is why most people just skip it (including me). Some time ago, Ted Patrick come up with this: http://www.onflex.org/ted/2006/07/flex-2-custom-preloaders.php And Jesse Warden wrote an article about it as well: http://jessewarden.com/2007/07/making-a-cooler-preloader-in-flex-part-1-of-3.html There's probably more on google (as always). regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: Latcho [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash Now we are on this topic: Are the components fast reskinnable ? I can guess not: That default flex preloader pops out everywhere .. Not to mention that blue-greyish backgroundcolor: If they had made the default pink that lazy man would think :) Latcho Juan Pablo Califano wrote: However, Flex DOES have animation and effects built into it too, and you can animate with Actionscript in Flex, so it's really more a question of what kind of project you are working on. I must say first that I haven't used Flex a lot. But, even though you can animate stuff with code (either in Flex or in Flash), one of the advantages of Flash is that you can create and edit animations on a timeline, which is a more natural setup for the kind of people that could generally make great animations (designers, artists, animators, etc); most animations done in code, generally by coders, could be almost decent depending on your goal and, yes, simple stuff is usually a one line no-brainer with a tweening engine; but for complex, more interesting and pro animations, a good animator with a timeline could do much better job and in less time, in my opinion. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. I've been following this thread pretty closely and have begun going through all the responses. Flex to me has seemed to discredit a lot of the flash developers out there buy putting advanced functionality at the finger tips of the average user. I do think that flex will eventually be leveraged correctly, but the idea that a whole new IDE must be built simply to build form based applications is bizarre to me. I have to imagine that the potential for Flex would extend far beyond Form RIA or else it wouldn't exist. But then again, that's macromedia for you. The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Those things are free to develop on, more prove and seemingly scale a hell of a lot better. Yes, it's not as simple as an EASY button, but if work was easy it'd be fun and we'd all be broke. Merrill, Jason wrote: At my previous employer, wanted to build a project with Flex 1.5, client couldn't/wouldn't pay for it, so we built it with Flash - took 5 times longer, and was 5-times buggier but it was do-able. Basically had to write the same kinds of classes for Flash that macromedia already built for Flex, and make it renderable by descriptive XML. It was a fun project, but I wish I had Flex. It was a very large interactive portal with different elements which also displayed metrics dashboards. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Coning Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:45 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE This may be a dumb question, but has anyone ever developed a project in Flex and towards the end decided that Flash would have been a better tool for the project? Or vice-a-versa? If so, why? I'm trying to determine if there are any pitfalls of deciding to use Flex over Flash for larger projects. Hope that makes sense... Doug Coning Senior Web Development Programmer FORUM Solutions, LLC This e-mail and any attachment(s) are intended for the specified recipient(s) only and are legally protected. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to sender's e-mail address with notification of the error and then destroy this message in all electronic and physical forms. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. It is to me. There are a lot of things you can do with Flex in a day that would take weeks to do in straight Flash/Actionscript. This is a fact. For an example, one of the features of the application I worked on required a Flex-like panel (if you know what I mean by a Flex panel) to contain content that could be built on the fly, to any size, look, feel, etc. Flex has a built in Panel renderer to host content. You create a panel with a single XML statement - takes literally 5 seconds. To do this in Flash, it required me to build and test a large Panel class that would scale and render the panel correctly - I won't tell you how long it took, but it was a lot longer than 45 seconds. The result was the same, but the time spent was drastically different. Now, the Actionscript class I built was far more customizable than the Flex one because I had access to everything that rendered the panel, but I didn't need all that for the project. That to me is a representation of the different strengths each app has. Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:44 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. I've been following this thread pretty closely and have begun going through all the responses. Flex to me has seemed to discredit a lot of the flash developers out there buy putting advanced functionality at the finger tips of the average user. I do think that flex will eventually be leveraged correctly, but the idea that a whole new IDE must be built simply to build form based applications is bizarre to me. I have to imagine that the potential for Flex would extend far beyond Form RIA or else it wouldn't exist. But then again, that's macromedia for you. The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Those things are free to develop on, more prove and seemingly scale a hell of a lot better. Yes, it's not as simple as an EASY button, but if work was easy it'd be fun and we'd all be broke. Merrill, Jason wrote: At my previous employer, wanted to build a project with Flex 1.5, client couldn't/wouldn't pay for it, so we built it with Flash - took 5 times longer, and was 5-times buggier but it was do-able. Basically had to write the same kinds of classes for Flash that macromedia already built for Flex, and make it renderable by descriptive XML. It was a fun project, but I wish I had Flex. It was a very large interactive portal with different elements which also displayed metrics dashboards. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Coning Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:45 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE This may be a dumb question, but has anyone ever developed a project in Flex and towards the end decided that Flash would have been a better tool for the project? Or vice-a-versa? If so, why? I'm trying to determine if there are any pitfalls of deciding to use Flex over Flash for larger projects. Hope that makes sense... Doug Coning Senior Web Development Programmer FORUM Solutions, LLC This e-mail and any attachment(s) are intended for the specified recipient(s) only and are legally protected. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to sender's e-mail address with notification of the error and then destroy this message in all electronic and physical forms. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
Well, I think you should just stick with the tool that works for you. I´m currently using Flash 8 IDE to build the layout and assets, and, for me, it is pretty good to build forms as well. The rest I do outside Flash, in FlashDevelop and compile with MTASC ;) It´s just another way to build the views... and there are tons of ways you can do that... what really matters to me is the advent of AS3 that is for sure above all this discussion... Marcelo. On 5/25/06, Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. I've been following this thread pretty closely and have begun going through all the responses. Flex to me has seemed to discredit a lot of the flash developers out there buy putting advanced functionality at the finger tips of the average user. I do think that flex will eventually be leveraged correctly, but the idea that a whole new IDE must be built simply to build form based applications is bizarre to me. I have to imagine that the potential for Flex would extend far beyond Form RIA or else it wouldn't exist. But then again, that's macromedia for you. The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Those things are free to develop on, more prove and seemingly scale a hell of a lot better. Yes, it's not as simple as an EASY button, but if work was easy it'd be fun and we'd all be broke. Merrill, Jason wrote: At my previous employer, wanted to build a project with Flex 1.5, client couldn't/wouldn't pay for it, so we built it with Flash - took 5 times longer, and was 5-times buggier but it was do-able. Basically had to write the same kinds of classes for Flash that macromedia already built for Flex, and make it renderable by descriptive XML. It was a fun project, but I wish I had Flex. It was a very large interactive portal with different elements which also displayed metrics dashboards. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Coning Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:45 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE This may be a dumb question, but has anyone ever developed a project in Flex and towards the end decided that Flash would have been a better tool for the project? Or vice-a-versa? If so, why? I'm trying to determine if there are any pitfalls of deciding to use Flex over Flash for larger projects. Hope that makes sense... Doug Coning Senior Web Development Programmer FORUM Solutions, LLC This e-mail and any attachment(s) are intended for the specified recipient(s) only and are legally protected. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to sender's e-mail address with notification of the error and then destroy this message in all electronic and physical forms. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. It is to me. There are a lot of things you can do with Flex in a day that would take weeks to do in straight Flash/Actionscript. This is a fact. For an example, one of the features of the application I worked on required a Flex-like panel (if you know what I mean by a Flex panel) to contain content that could be built on the fly, to any size, look, feel, etc. Flex has a built in Panel renderer to host content. You create a panel with a single XML statement - takes literally 5 seconds. To do this in Flash, it required me to build and test a large Panel class that would scale and render the panel correctly - I won't tell you how long it took, but it was a lot longer than 45 seconds. The result was the same, but the time spent was drastically different. Now, the Actionscript class I built was far more customizable than the Flex one because I had access to everything that rendered the panel, but I didn't need all that for the project. That to me is a representation of the different strengths each app has. I would say it's far from being an advantage of Flex itself, but more of the component library with MXML representation. The same thing can be done in Flash/ActionScript2. For instance the people of the ActionStep project worked on such an XML representation that could instanciate the UI. Nicolas ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
would say it's far from being an advantage of Flex itself, but more of the component library with MXML representation. The same thing can be done in Flash/ActionScript2. For instance the people of the ActionStep project worked on such an XML representation that could instanciate the UI. Nicolas Yes. I think the technology (flash platform) should be put above all this and then adobe can build different IDE´s gueared towards different needs, so, for example, form-based RIA´s would be faster to build with FlexBuilder and more customized apps with Flash IDE, but both would use the SAME framework and compiler ;) Just my 2 cents, - Marcelo. On 5/25/06, Nicolas Cannasse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. It is to me. There are a lot of things you can do with Flex in a day that would take weeks to do in straight Flash/Actionscript. This is a fact. For an example, one of the features of the application I worked on required a Flex-like panel (if you know what I mean by a Flex panel) to contain content that could be built on the fly, to any size, look, feel, etc. Flex has a built in Panel renderer to host content. You create a panel with a single XML statement - takes literally 5 seconds. To do this in Flash, it required me to build and test a large Panel class that would scale and render the panel correctly - I won't tell you how long it took, but it was a lot longer than 45 seconds. The result was the same, but the time spent was drastically different. Now, the Actionscript class I built was far more customizable than the Flex one because I had access to everything that rendered the panel, but I didn't need all that for the project. That to me is a representation of the different strengths each app has. I would say it's far from being an advantage of Flex itself, but more of the component library with MXML representation. The same thing can be done in Flash/ActionScript2. For instance the people of the ActionStep project worked on such an XML representation that could instanciate the UI. Nicolas ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
For instance the people of the ActionStep project worked on such an XML representation that could instanciate the UI. Funny, that's essentially the same thing I was doing on this project - the Panel was defined in XML, and a Panel class I wrote rendered it in the player. It just took a whole lot longer than it would have if I could have done it in Flex. In Flex, you skip the class writing and go straight to the XML. You just miss out on some of the added customization you get with Flash/Actionscript rendering. Christian, if you think I'm somehow bashing traditional Flash development, you're completely missing my point. :) Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicolas Cannasse Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:03 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE Obviously this may sound harsh, but because the app you wrote was buggier or harder to build isn't a reflection of the technology in my opinion. It is to me. There are a lot of things you can do with Flex in a day that would take weeks to do in straight Flash/Actionscript. This is a fact. For an example, one of the features of the application I worked on required a Flex-like panel (if you know what I mean by a Flex panel) to contain content that could be built on the fly, to any size, look, feel, etc. Flex has a built in Panel renderer to host content. You create a panel with a single XML statement - takes literally 5 seconds. To do this in Flash, it required me to build and test a large Panel class that would scale and render the panel correctly - I won't tell you how long it took, but it was a lot longer than 45 seconds. The result was the same, but the time spent was drastically different. Now, the Actionscript class I built was far more customizable than the Flex one because I had access to everything that rendered the panel, but I didn't need all that for the project. That to me is a representation of the different strengths each app has. I would say it's far from being an advantage of Flex itself, but more of the component library with MXML representation. The same thing can be done in Flash/ActionScript2. For instance the people of the ActionStep project worked on such an XML representation that could instanciate the UI. Nicolas ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Those things are free to develop on, more prove and seemingly scale a hell of a lot better. Yes, it's not as simple as an EASY button, but if work was easy it'd be fun and we'd all be broke. Have you looked into FDS? http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flexdata_services2/ When you say: develop the front ends in flash You mean the Flash IDE? What makes you think developing in Flex does not allow you to communicate with any traditional back-end? Flex Builder is just an IDE. The end result is an swf the same as with the Flash IDE. It's just that an swf published from Flash is currently a different version. regards, Muzak ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
What are you basing that on? The underlying Player, not framework handles the low level connections, so it is the same regsardless of whether the content was built in Flash Authoring or the Flex Framework. In fact, Flex was originally built and designed with scalability as a primary goal (as it was originally focused at the Enterprise space). And Flex based apps can easily communicate with backends such as ASP, PHP, etc... mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] On May 25, 2006, at 5:43 AM, Christian wrote: The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Those things are free to develop on, more prove and seemingly scale a hell of a lot better. Yes, it's not as simple as an EASY button, but if work was easy it'd be fun and we'd all be broke. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
Hi, I've been too busy developping in Flash lately to give a try to the new Flex yet, so excuse me if the following question sounds stupid: Flex use to be a server product, but with the new Flex Builder can you simply build a swf file like you do with flash and include it in regular html page? (and therefore php,etc...) Or do you absolutely need to have a specific Flex server of some sort running in order to deliver those files? Thank you, Frank -Original Message- From: Muzak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:45 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Those things are free to develop on, more prove and seemingly scale a hell of a lot better. Yes, it's not as simple as an EASY button, but if work was easy it'd be fun and we'd all be broke. Have you looked into FDS? http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flexdata_services2/ When you say: develop the front ends in flash You mean the Flash IDE? What makes you think developing in Flex does not allow you to communicate with any traditional back-end? Flex Builder is just an IDE. The end result is an swf the same as with the Flash IDE. It's just that an swf published from Flash is currently a different version. regards, Muzak ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Flex vs. Flash IDE
Flex to me has seemed to discredit a lot of the flash developers out there buy putting advanced functionality at the finger tips of the average user. This is the nature of programming; what was once difficult becomes simple, and what was once impossible becomes difficult! Once upon a time, if you wanted to build Windows applications, you used C/C++ and MFC. Then, you could use Visual Basic, and now, you can use .NET. The other issue i see with flex is it's ability to scale. It doesn't seem to have the ability to handle a ton of simultaneous connections very well, ala Flash Media Server. Perhaps I'm off base here, but I'd prefer to develop the front ends in flash and communicate back and forth with a traditional back-end I.E. ASP, PHP, etc. Flex 2 has no required server component. There are optional server components, which based on what I've seen scale incredibly well, but you can use Flex 2 to build interfaces that talk to any server-side application you want. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
