Re: Integration of TIFFRenderer in FOP

[The Web Maestro]

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On Mar 8, 2005, at 4:03 PM, vivek gupta wrote:
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--- "Peter B. West" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Renaud Richardet wrote:
Oleg,
I'm currently working on the AWTRenderer. The
basic idea is to create
a Java2DRenderer which provides the (abstract)
technical foundation.
Other renderers can subclass Java2DRenderer and
provide the concrete
output paths [1].
I think it would be a good idea to integrate your
TIFFRenderer, as you
propose in [2]. Would you like to integrate it
yourself? Otherwise I
would like to do it.
Regards,
Renaud
[1]
http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics-fop/FopAndJava2D
[2] http://www.tkachenko.com/fop/fop.html
Renaud,
This approach is obviously of interest to me, and I
will follow
developments closely.  The wiki page is very
general.  If the
Java2DRenderer is to be the "(abstract) technical
foundation", what will
the relationship to the concrete PDF renderer be?
The wiki is vague on
this point.
Peter
--
Peter B. West 
Folio 




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Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
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Re: Integration of TIFFRenderer in FOP

[The Web Maestro]

On Mar 8, 2005, at 7:23 AM, Renaud Richardet wrote:

I think it would be a good idea to integrate your TIFFRenderer, as you
propose in [2]. Would you like to integrate it yourself? Otherwise I
would like to do it.

I think that would be great! Just be careful when you do, that the 
output isn't restricted to 72-dpi (IIRC, I had some problems in the 
past when i tried to use Oleg's TIFFRenderer--I ended up using 
ImageMagick to complete my task).

Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Skype-conference on page-breaking?

[The Web Maestro]

I'd be happy to 'participate' although I don't have a skype acct yet. I 
don't know what I can offer, but I'm here to help!

Cheers!
On Mar 1, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Maybe I could hook you into a Skype conference by using SkypeOut. It's 
pretty
cheap to call to the Netherlands. According to the FAQ this is 
possible.

On 01.03.2005 22:26:50 Simon Pepping wrote:
On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:09:46PM +0100, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
To speed things up could we hold a conference (using Skype, for 
example)
to discuss further details on page-breaking? I'd volunteer to sum up 
any
results during that discussion for the archives. I have Finn on my 
Skype
radar already.
I do not have a broadband connection, and therefore no Skype or other
VoIP.
Jeremias Maerki
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: cvs commit: xml-fop/src/java/org/apache/fop/fo/flow TableBody.java

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:21 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
--- Jeremias Maerki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have nothing more to say about this. I want to
spend my time on more
productive things now.
Jeremias, I'm going to veto (-1) your change.  I would
like the content model restored to the XSL standard
and the FONode.removeNode() method removed.
The change gets a +1 from me.
I'm all for helping our community grow, and I believe that it takes a 
supportive environment for that to happen. Anything we can do to foster 
improvement can help, be it providing help on this list, or not scaring 
the bejeebers out of someone when we throw an NPE their way (a NPE? an 
NPE? who cares! :-)). Many of my early errors threw warnings instead of 
NPEs (overflowing table-cell content, unsupported [yet] attributes, 
etc.) helped me greatly. Some of them I chose to fix, and others I 
chose to ignore at the time, as the output worked.

I can understand the reasoning for a veto... As an avid reader of A 
List Apart, and some of the other gung-ho standards proselytizers, I 
respect the desire to have well-written code. At the same time, I also 
am guilty of throwing the occasional box-model hack or Mozilla-specific 
CSS extension into my CSS (e.g., -moz-border-radius-topright: 20px;).

However, I tend to err on the side of the supportive, hence my 
reasoning for supporting this change. I've long been annoyed that some 
browsers require a non-breaking space instead of a normal 'space' 
(  vs.  ) in order to function correctly.

Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Renaming the AWT Renderer to Java2D Renderer

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
I know...sad thing is, you're the closest committer to
me and California is thousands of miles away!  (We can
meet halfway though...perhaps Pittsburgh would be
good... ;)
Glen
With my luck, we'd still be on opposite sides of the continent! Would 
that be Pittsburgh, CA or Pittsburgh, PA? Actually, I'll be in Park 
City, UT this weekend and next (flying back to CA to work in between!). 
Don't worry, though, I'll think of FOP while I'm drinking! But I will 
try to keep away from my keyboard and mouse when there's a beer in the 
other hand! Wouldn't want to accidentally commit anything! ;-)

Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Renaming the AWT Renderer to Java2D Renderer

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 23, 2005, at 7:28 AM, Victor Mote wrote:
Renaud Richardet wrote:
Your note sounded hard to me. My apologies to you and the
other members of the team. In the future i'll use standard
English. Please do not take my writing style as a sign of
misrespect, as this was NOT my intention. This style is
pretty well accepted in Switzerland (in German, we have to
capitalize all Words, so this saves a lot of
Typing) and i find it personally nicer.
I doubt that anyone, including Glen, was offended by your style. You 
did
nothing wrong, nothing worthy of a public censure. I will resist the 
strong
temptation to flame the antagonist and simply say that politics are at 
work
as much in open source projects as they are anywhere else. I hope you 
will
not be offended either by what passes for leadership in FOP, or the 
awkward
silence from the rest of the team. Your efforts are appreciated, and I 
doubt
that I am the only subscriber to this list who was embarrassed by the
rudeness with which you were treated here.

Victor Mote
Thanks for voicing up Victor... I'd intended to write a private note to 
Renaud showing the same conviction, but under the ciircumstances, I 
suspect a public note is more appropriate. Victor, I am grateful for 
your continued attention to all things FOP...

Renaud, I was not offended by your 'tone' of voice. I did take notice 
of your writing style, but I was not offended. I suspected your tone 
was one of camaraderie rather than disrespect. I figured at some point 
you would've modified your writing style to be similar to how others 
write, but it wasn't a big enough issue to me to send you an e-mail. 
Just the same, if I had made a comment, it would've been a private 
note.

Glen,
I also very much value your contributions to the FOP and XML Graphics 
community. I sincerely hope that in the future you will show some 
restraint in your communications style. You come off as gruff 
occasionally, but you are also a very valued member of the FOP 
community (in my opinion).

One thing I know for certain, is that it would be great if we could all 
get together for a beer (root beer or ginger ale is acceptable for 
those trying to cut down!)

Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Renaming the AWT Renderer to Java2D Renderer

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 22, 2005, at 8:16 AM, Glen Mazza wrote:
--- Jeremias Maerki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Now that we've got someone who will work on the AWT
Renderer I'd like to
know if someone is against renaming the AWT Renderer
to Java2D Renderer.
"AWT Renderer" has a rich history within FOP, it's a
popular renderer, and I have not heard of any
complaints or confusion from the user community about
its naming.  Its output is that neat-looking AWT/Swing
window, so it's not that incorrect a name.  The
internal technology we use to generate said window is
IMO less important than what the user sees.
Well stated, Glen. In the grand scheme of things, the name of the 2 
dimensional graphics renderer (?) doesn't matter much to me.

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Renaming the AWT Renderer to Java2D Renderer

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 21, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
So here are the proposed changes:
- Package org.apache.fop.render.awt becomes 
org.apache.fop.render.java2d
- AWTRenderer.java becomes Java2DRenderer.java (AWT*.java ->
Java2D*.java)

I think the viewer subpackage can stay as is under the renamed package.
Any objections?
[1] http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/2d/spec.html
Jeremias Maerki
None from me! The simple and more transparent, the better.
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: another nose for the grindstone

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:55 PM, Renaud Richardet wrote:
bonjour fop-devs
Salut! Bienvenue!
i would like to work on the awt renderer. Mark (or someone else) , are
you working on it?
i checked out the code from FOP 0.20.5. is it the latest maintenance 
version?

thanks, renaud
Actually, the fop-0.20.5 code is merely for reference. All FOP 
development has moved away from the fop-0.20-5 branch 
(fop-0_20-maintain OR 'maintenance' branch) in favor of  the re-design 
branch (HEAD). This was done because the 'maintenance' branch had 
significant problems that were not easily resolvable. The re-design 
branch occurred because of problems in implementing the XSL0FO 1.0 
spec--specifically with the 'keeps' I believe.

In any case, if you wish to contribute to FOP development, please check 
out the HEAD branch. You may look to fop-0.20.5 for reference, but any 
work you do on that branch will probably not be integrated into FOP 
1.0.

Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: need to update team page

[The Web Maestro]

You bet! I'm happy to do this for you/us...
BTW, you'll notice the skin looks funny *locally* until you upload 
(missing project logo, etc.). I'll work on getting the proper skin 
files into CVS so we can all look at it as it should be...

Cheers!
On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:13 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Thanks for updating the site, and also thanks for
teaching us how to fish here.  I will do this next
time I need an update to occur.
Glen
--- The Web Maestro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:30 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Clay,
I have a favor to ask--when you have the chance,
would
you please republish the FOP team page with my
recent
changes?  Much appreciated!
I've updated the FOP Team page (HTML & PDF).
FYI (and FMI), the quick and dirty way to generate a
new page (without
waiting for the whole site to generate) is to run
this command:
forrest -Dproject.start-uri=team.pdf
and then this one:
forrest -Dproject.start-uri=team.html
Do the PDF first--since there's no links in it,
forrest stops after
generating the PDF. Then do team.html, which starts
the normal process.
Because there was no change in the navigation
structure (no files added
or removed), you can just stop it (Ctrl-C).
One of these days I'll update the Doc Mgmt page[1]
to include this
information. Of course we need to set up the CVS
system for this to
work 'correctly', which will happen in due time.
Cheers!
[1] FOP Doc Management Page
http://xml.apache.org/fop/dev/doc.html
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -
<http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet


Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - <http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: need to update team page

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:30 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Clay,
I have a favor to ask--when you have the chance, would
you please republish the FOP team page with my recent
changes?  Much appreciated!
I've updated the FOP Team page (HTML & PDF).
FYI (and FMI), the quick and dirty way to generate a new page (without 
waiting for the whole site to generate) is to run this command:

forrest -Dproject.start-uri=team.pdf
and then this one:
forrest -Dproject.start-uri=team.html
Do the PDF first--since there's no links in it, forrest stops after 
generating the PDF. Then do team.html, which starts the normal process. 
Because there was no change in the navigation structure (no files added 
or removed), you can just stop it (Ctrl-C).

One of these days I'll update the Doc Mgmt page[1] to include this 
information. Of course we need to set up the CVS system for this to 
work 'correctly', which will happen in due time.

Cheers!
[1] FOP Doc Management Page
http://xml.apache.org/fop/dev/doc.html
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: need to update team page

[The Web Maestro]

sure... (dusting off forrest knowledge...)
On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:30 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Clay,
I have a favor to ask--when you have the chance, would
you please republish the FOP team page with my recent
changes?  Much appreciated!
Thanks,
Glen
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Page breaking [was: Markers added to the wrong page]

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:57 AM, Victor Mote wrote:
The Web Maestro wrote:
I don't know how the spec deals with this, but I doubt the
spec cares which algorithm is used. That said, would it be a
good idea to determine which algorithm to use based on
something in userconfig.xml or something? If the Knuth system
is more 'expensive' in terms of resources, we could make
non-Knuth the default, and enable Knuth via a config file.
Hi Clay:
The good news is that this is an excellent idea. The bad news is that 
FOP's
determination to not even tolerate more than one algorithm is what 
drove FOP
and FOray apart. So you have stumbled in to a somewhat sensitive area, 
which
might explain the absence of responses (so far).
Thanks for the heads up, and also for the 'clue'... I never completely 
understood what happened, as it occurred before I was committed. ;-) I 
understand a bit more, thanks to this e-mail... I suspect there may be 
another 'side' to the story--there  always is--and that there's may be 
other contributing factors... but this helps me understand much more 
than I understood before. Your explanation below also helps! I probably 
just need to ask for help when I don't understand something... but I've 
got enough going in my head anyway...

FOP-DEV... Please don't take this as griping (it's not!), but I get 
lost in thee BP/BPD/IPD/AT speak now and again, which is one reason I 
tend to stay out of the fray on that stuff. If I get confused--and 
choose to attempt to contribute to a discussion--I'll speak up about 
anything that strikes my fancy. If there's something I don't get... 
I'll search Google first.

BTW, since it is relevant here, thanks for your kind comments last 
week in
another thread. You are ever the peacemaker, a very useful role. As 
long as
the differences remain as great as they are, we *need* more than one FO
implementation. In the meantime, I am much more useful and productive
outside of FOP than I am in it, and, the FOP developers probably are 
also.

To my perhaps still naive mind, layout consists of exactly two tasks: 
1)
finding line-breaks within logical blocks (nested blocks consisting of 
a new
logical block), and 2) finding page-breaks between and within logical
blocks. All other tasks can be conveniently handled within the two data
structures, not being dependent on any strategy. The Knuth-style 
algorithm
is by definition a total-fit algorithm. The scope of such an algorithm 
for
the first task is the logical block itself. The scope of the second 
task is
the page-sequence. So, to implement a Knuth-style algorithm (itself a 
good
idea) for item 2, requires the ability to see an entire page-sequence 
in the
AreaTree at one time. I am a little confused about whether FOP's 
design will
even allow that to happen right now. I understood both Keiron's and 
Finn's
design ideas (and Peter West's also) to be releasing pages from the 
AreaTree
long before a page-sequence was even completely parsed. However, I may 
have
misunderstood, especially Finn's, which I am especially fuzzy on.

I read somewhere that Peter Karow was going to try to implement a
Knuth-style algorithm for URW, and I have tried desperately and
unsuccessfully to get a copy of his book on the topic. If anybody 
knows that
status of that effort or how to find his out-of-print books, please 
let us
know.
Might these links help:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Peter+Karow+book&spell=1
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0387572236/102-3161708-3958541
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0387565094/102-3161708-3958541
The general approach that FOray hopes to take eventually is a first-fit
algorithm for the initial pass through a page-sequence, then a second
optimization look that I hope to make do a Knuth-style evaluation. 
That may
be sub-optimal, but it is my best guess right now about a reasonable 
way to
proceed.

Victor Mote
Thanks again for the explanation! Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - <http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Page breaking [was: Markers added to the wrong page]

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 7, 2005, at 7:21 AM, Luca Furini wrote:
Finn Bock wrote:
Using your description as a jumping point, here is my ideas for page
breaking. I suppose it is even more pie-in-the-sky since I haven't yet
written anything about it.
As I have been doing a few experiments about page breaking, I'm happy 
to
join in this conversation.
I rarely find myself feeling the urge to enter these conversations 
(it's not really my forte), but every now and then, I find I might 
offer an idea or two I think (hope) will be constructive...

The algorithm that the PageLM uses are a slightly modified knuth (no
need to maintain fitnessclass, and with the ability to decide on a 
break
when there is N pages of lookahead). The elements return from the LMs
are boxes (for lines), spaces and penalties.
Note that using the box - penalty - glue representation does not
necessarily involve using Knuth's algorithm.
A first-fit (or best-fit) algorithm could be enough in most situations;
and if there are no adjustable elements in the fo document (for exaple,
lots of paragraphs without adjustable spaces between them) Knuth's
algorithm becomes a best-fit.
Given its higher cost, maybe it could be used only when it could really
produce a better output.
I don't know how the spec deals with this, but I doubt the spec cares 
which algorithm is used. That said, would it be a good idea to 
determine which algorithm to use based on something in userconfig.xml 
or something? If the Knuth system is more 'expensive' in terms of 
resources, we could make non-Knuth the default, and enable Knuth via a 
config file.

The elements are not
returned from the LMs but pushed from the LM into the pageLM:
   parent.generateElement(new Space(resolveBefore());
   parent.generateElement(new Box(lineHeigth);
I'm not sure it is always possible to do this: sometimes the
representation of a block depends on the properties of a higher level
block. For example:
 outer block
 |
 -
 |   |
  innerinner
  blockblock
12
In order to decide whether there can be a page break between the lines
generated by innerBlock1 and innerBlock2, we must know:
- if inner block 1 has keep-with-next
- if inner block 2 has keep-with-previous
- if outer block has keep-together
This can be done if the outer BlockLM calls receives the elements 
created
by its child, looks at them and adds / removes / corrects; could this 
be
done if the inner BlockLMs directly give their element to the top-level
LM?

BTW, what about your great refactoring of all the knuth code?
Regards,
Luca
Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Glad you're still here! (was Re: Start using *-position traits?)

[The Web Maestro]

COMPLETELY OT...
On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:04 AM, Victor Mote wrote:
Jeremias Maerki wrote:

I don't share his opinion on point 3 because whenever we have
a change in reference-orientation we also have a new
reference-area which establishes a new coordinate system. So
I don't think it will be complicated to calculate the right
coordinates. But I may be wrong.
Opinions?
Hi Jeremias:
It is fascinating to me how many times you and I happen to be working 
on
exactly the same issue, as we are right now. FWIW, the FOray approach 
is as
follows: Areas do not store any location information at all. The only 
size
information stored is a "progressionDimension" value and a value for 
the
resolved "anteriorSpace". This is enough information, however, for 
each Area
to compute and return to the Renderer where it should be rendered. 
Every
Area either is or has an ancestor area that knows intrinsically what 
its
location is just from its properties. Every Area knows its own IPD and 
BPD.
So by considering the progressionDimension and anteriorSpace (the 
resolved
value of space-before/after or space-start/end) of other Areas already
stacked in the containing Area, any Area knows its location.

If these comments are not helpful, please let me know. I don't mean to
generate noise -- I just like to support good ideas when I see them.
Victor Mote
COMPLETELY OT:
I just wanted to say, that I'm impressed with your ability and desire 
to continue working with us Victor. I was disappointed with your 
decision to go your own way (foray out on your own as it were ;-)), but 
I think that we are all really benefitting from the experience... I am 
grateful that you continue to contribute to the FOP community, and look 
forward to your continued contributions. Occasionally there will be 
growing pains, as we figure out what our relationship is... I sincerely 
hope that we can some day find a way to bring your work back  into the 
Apache FOP fold (either in some sort of renderer or modular sort of way 
or... who knows.

Thanks for being here!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: cvs commit: xml-fop/test/layoutengine/testcases normal-breaking2.xml

[The Web Maestro]

On Feb 2, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
No, it don't think so. That bug happens in getNextBreakPoss() while 
mine
happens in addAdreas().
I thought it was called addAndreas(to,,list-of-folks,to,send,big,thanks)
;-)
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: FOP status

[The Web Maestro]

Ilya,
NOTE: This message does not reflect a decision of the FOP Development 
Team. Rather it is my own thoughts on the subject. If there are any 
mistakes or inaccuracies in my thinking or reasoning, I hope the FOP 
Team will let us know. My goal is to give Ilya and other an answer on 
this important subject.

The FOP Development Team is actively & diligently working to achieve a 
1.0 release of Apache FOP. As with many open source projects with 
limited resources (i.e., a small number of active volunteer 
developers[1]), release schedules suffer. It has been 18+ months since 
the most recent release of 'maintenance' branch of FOP (fop-0.20.5). As 
you are probably aware, there were problems with meeting the 
requirements of the XSL-FO 1.0 Spec via the 'maintenance' branch, so it 
was frozen. The hope was that a re-design could be released relatively 
quickly, which would enable the FOP Team to meet the needs of the 
XSL-FO Spec. This hasn't happened yet, but we haven't stopped working 
towards that goal.

Although there are Status[2], Change[3], ToDo[4], News[5] and other 
pages, a TIMELINE unfortunately is not presently on the site. Possible 
release dates and timelines for FOP 1.0 have been unofficially bandied 
about on the mailing lists. The most 'relevant' date I've seen is 
"summer of 2005". This is not any sort of a 'promise' of a release 
date. It's just what I've seen in the mailing lists. In the 
not-too-distant future, I suspect the FOP Development Team will discuss 
a timeline schedule for release. Perhaps we may even  add info on the 
FOP 'home' page or add a new page to the site, to communicate better 
with the FOP community.

I apologize I/we cannot provide more specific information.
Web Maestro Clay
[1] Who we are
http://xml.apache.org/fop/team.html
[2] Status
http://xml.apache.org/fop/status.html
[3] Changes
http://xml.apache.org/fop/changes.html
[4] Todo
http://xml.apache.org/fop/todo.html
[5] News
http://xml.apache.org/fop/news.html
On Jan 27, 2005, at 6:35 AM, Ilya Khandamirov wrote:
Dear FOP Developers,
I'm re-posting this mail from the user list, because there was no clear
answer there.
The main questions are:
- what are the plans concerning the future FOP releases? Is there a 
defined
timeline?
- what are the plans concerning the spec conformance?

Your answers are greately appreciated. It would help me to decide, if i
should go FOP.
Regards,
Ilya
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: block-containers with BPD set

[The Web Maestro]

We can't unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, you need to send an e-mail to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Maestro Clay
On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Feifei Lu wrote:
please remove my email address in this list. Thanks.
--- Victor Mote <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Andreas L. Delmelle wrote:
In either case it seems to make little sense to speak of
'remaining space'
as in 'the space not allocated by descendant FOs inside the
b-c', unless you mean the space remaining on the _page_ after
the first child viewport for the b-c is added. The sum of the
b-p-d of the two child viewports will be five units, period.
Just to be clear (not argumentative), I was saying something quite
different. For the example that Andreas has given, my understanding
is that
there would only be one child viewport area, containing the entire
contents
of both blocks, but that it would be pushed onto the following
column/page.
Only if the contents didn't all fit into the first viewport would
additional
ones be created (and then only if the overflow properties are set
properly).
The user has dogmatically told us how big the viewport(s) should be.
Victor Mote


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Background images

[The Web Maestro]

On Jan 20, 2005, at 2:19 AM, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Team,
I'm going to implement background images as one of my next steps. I
found that even in 1.1 WD there's no way to scale the background image.
Should we skip that or should we define our own properties? Maybe Glen
wants to talk to the WG about that.
Jeremias Maerki
+1 for enabling this attribute/feature.
Since that's something that is oft-requested (well, considering how 
many requests we get), I think it's a good idea to implement this. 
Perhaps, since it's not part of the 1.0 or 1.1 spec (yet), it should be 
made as an extension (although i don't know how this would work since 
it's an attribute... maybe by enabling content-width & 
content-height?)?

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Another Future User Reporting In

[The Web Maestro]

On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Paul Hill wrote:
Web Maestro Clay,
You can add my name to the list of people who intend to use FOP as  
part of a larger product/service... FOP has a perfectly positioned  
functionally to meet the needs of may application developers We  
are very interested in you perception of where the project is  
currently. Thanks for you comments...

Great work I read and save every e-mail.
Paul
Thank you for your kind comments, and welcome to the Apache FOP  
community!

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to offer beyond the Apache FOP web  
site's Status page[1]. As for the best estimate of a release of FOP  
1.0, I'd check this POST by Jeremias[2].  FWIW, the FOP HEAD the branch  
is where *all* development is happening, and FOP 1.0 will be the result  
of work on HEAD. As with most Open Source projects, this is not a firm  
date, but is probably the best guess anyone could give.

Thank you again for your kind words. BTW, I suspect this type off  
discussion would be better served in [EMAIL PROTECTED], as this  
mailing list (fop-dev@xml.apache.org) is primarily for developers to  
ask questions regarding PATCH submissions, bug reports and design  
issues.

[1]
http://xml.apache.org/fop/status.html
[2]
http://mail-archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=fop- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msgNo=10437

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Stability Question

[The Web Maestro]

Charles,
I believe this is more a question for [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
([EMAIL PROTECTED] to subscribe), but...

On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Charles Griswold wrote:
I've considering embedding FOP is a product I'm developing.
How stable and complete is the puppy?
One of my clients found it stable enough to process 300,000+ bills per 
month. And it's complete enough for said client to do what it needs to 
do. Many of the areas which are not complete (e.g., keep-*, etc.) have 
workarounds which can be implemented. All development has moved away 
from the 'release' Maintenance version (fop-0.20.5) in favor of the CVS 
TRUNK version (fop-1.0) to ensure all available resources go towards 
the re-design. We welcome constructive assistance (i.e., HELP WANTED!! 
:-p).

For more information about what's complete and what isn't, check out 
the FOP Compliance page[1], which identifies 'level of compliance' (for 
lack of a better term).

Good luck! and Welcome!
[1] FOP Compliance
http://xml.apache.org/fop/compliance.html
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: marketing Defoe

[The Web Maestro]

Peter,
FWIW, I was shocked by the tone of your statement as well. Not so much 
by any misleading or such. Rather, it was more in the way that I'm 
shocked by the manner that, in the US companies can discuss differences 
with other products in their advertisements.

Had you also 'advertised' FOray in the same way you promoted Defoe, it 
might've taken a bit of the tone down (I don't know--you didn't mention 
FOray so I don't *know* how it would've come off).

In any case, as I suspect is true for with the rest of the FOP team, I 
am grateful to your continued contributions to the FOP project, and I 
hope your contribution will continue.

Web Maestro Clay
On Jan 17, 2005, at 3:07 AM, Peter B. West wrote:
Jeremias,
Do you disagree with the assessment?  Clearly people might, but I 
didn't say anything I don't believe is the truth about the state of 
FOP.  If it is true, isn't it fair to let newcomers know the state of 
play?  Finn has already talked about a radically different approach in 
order to solve the large files problem, and I'm sure he will present 
you with a swag of patches to do just that at some time in the future. 
 I just hope he doesn't do it so soon as to render Defoe moot.  One of 
its underlying features will be what is effectively a stream parsing 
mechanism.  It's acceptance, which I take to be a fait accompli, there 
being no other design contenders, will be particularly galling for me, 
in light of the the blanket refusal to consider it when I proposed it, 
as I still do.

I think I have earned the right to speak my mind on these issues.
Peter
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Peter,
it's ok if you make other people aware of your project but the way you
did that in your last post disturbs me. We know that you disagree with
FOP's approach, but I would have preferred a more constructive form of
making Mark aware of Defoe. Maybe I'm overreacting...

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unsubscribe

[The Web Maestro]

We can't do it for you. You have to do it yourself.
Instructions are here:
  http://xml.apache.org/fop/dev/index.html#mail-fop-dev
But all you need to do, is send an e-mail here *from the e-mail address 
with which you subscribed* (presumably [EMAIL PROTECTED]):

  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Jan 13, 2005, at 3:02 PM, Peter King wrote:
Please unsubscribe me from the list
Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: New year -> update copyright years

[The Web Maestro]

I've updated the copyright years for http://xml.apache.org/fop/ but I 
noticed a different glitch in my xmlgraphics logo. It says xmlgraphics, 
but it shows xml.apache.org/ (ahem! now who can I blame this on? ;-)). 
Anyway, I'll fix that little one soon...

Also, the "Group" link is still to Apache XML Project and I need to 
change that to Apache XML Graphics Project. Speaking of which I think 
it makes sense that links to http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/ be 
re-directed to http://xml.apache.org/fop/ (and the same for /batik/). 
Are there any objections to my making this *low* priority request to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Jan 4, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Web Maestro Clay wrote:
I'll take care of the web pages when I upload the site...
On Jan 4, 2005, at 12:44 AM, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
People,
we have a new year again, so don't forget to update the copyright 
years
if you change a file.

Jeremias Maerki
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Merry Christmas everyone!

[The Web Maestro]

On Dec 23, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Merry Christmas!
Buon Natale!
Vrolijk Kerstfeest!
Glædelig Jul!
Froehliche Weihnachten!
Zalig Kerstfeest!/Joyeux Noël!
(OK, think I got everybody...  ;-)
Regards,
Glen
Thanks Glen! And (just to be complete...):
Happy Chanukah!
Happy Kwanzaa!
Happy Winter Solstice!
Happiness!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: replace extension bookmarks with XSL 1.1 ones?

[The Web Maestro]

sounds good to me... +1
On Dec 12, 2004, at 8:01 AM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Team,
Silly confirmation question here -- is the 1.1 XSL
Spec's fo:bookmark-tree, fo:bookmark, and
fo:bookmark-title [1] basically the same thing as our
fox:bookmarks, fox:outline, and fox:title,
respectively?   (i.e., they're for off-document PDF
bookmarks?)  Its mandated location [2] in the FO is
the same place where our fox: equivalents are.  (The
only issue giving me pause is that fo:bookmark
apparently generates inline areas according to the
spec [3], i.e., it appears to be something that is
*on* the document.)
Anyway, if they're equivalent, I would like to bring
these three 1.1 elements in (I'm guessing a new
pagination.bookmarks package, we can move it around
later) and drop our fox: equivalents.  Backwards
compatibility with 0.20.5 is already broken because of
the addition of fox:bookmarks in 1.0, as well as the
enforced validation scheme, so we can fortunately
focus on the best design here.
There is a differing namespace issue that will need to
be taken care of eventually but I think we can tend to
that afterwards without much hassle.  (We can handle
it now, if anyone has ideas.)  My primary goal for the
moment is to pull out our bookmark extension elements
and put in the official XSL elements (even if 1.1)
instead.
Thoughts?  Objections?
Thanks,
Glen
[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl11/#d0e12873
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl11/#fo_root
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl11/#fo_bookmark

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unnecessary zipping and backups?

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 25, 2004, at 2:56 AM, Christian Geisert wrote:
The Web Maestro wrote:
[..]
On a similar note, I am 'contemplating' committing the xml-fop/build/ 
folder ('built' by apache-forrest-0.6). My reasoning for this is 
two-fold: 1. it contains the FOP web site (which I've spent a 
significant amount of time to re-create).
The generated website should actually be commited to the xml-site
repository (targets/fop) and the live site updated from there.
Sorry, no more time right now (hopefully I'll get some this evening)
Christian
I'm having trouble setting this up in CVS. Can you give me more info on 
how you would set this up? I've got a working COMMITTERs connection to 
CVS, but I can't seem to make it work.

Once I have it set up I'll need to figure out how to transfer from 
targets/fop/ to /www/xml.apache.org/fop/.

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - <http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Good news: Jeremias has been elected as an ASF member!

[The Web Maestro]

On Dec 1, 2004, at 2:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
Hi FOP people,
I have the great pleasure to announce that Jeremias Maerki has been 
elected as an ASF member at the last member's meeting during 
ApacheCon.
Congratulations Jeremias! And to ASF as well! Jeremias is a 
hard-worker, and ASF is fortunate to have him as a member.

I'm sure you will agree that this is well deserved, given all the 
energy that Jeremias has been pouring tirelessly in FOP, Batik, the 
XML federation and probably many things here that I don't know about.

/me happy ;-)
-Bertrand
+!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: FOP Web site updated

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 28, 2004, at 2:10 PM, bearklaw wrote:
Minor bug for you.  On the Resources page, "Other products" section, 
the links for FOray and Defoe are backwards.  Clicking on Defoe takes 
you to the FOray home, and vice-versa.  BTW, should issues like this 
be sent to this list, posted in Bugzilla, something else?

-Barry Klawans
Thanks! Fixed! As for where to post? Bugzilla is the place (the 
fop-dev@ mailing list gets CC'd a message).

Thanks again!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Preview for a general XSL-FO processing API

[The Web Maestro]

This all sounds great to me. I like the sound of it very much. As for  
the javadocs stuff, there's ongoing discussion on the Forrest DEV  
list[1] which discusses 'RAW' files (the category in which Javadocs  
fall). Since that isn't ready yet, perhaps we'll have to go for some  
other javadocs implementation?

As for a 'location' for JAFOP, how about the Objects for Formatting  
Objects (OFFO[2])?

Web Maestro Clay
[1]
http://mail-archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg? 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msgNo=15979

[2]
http://offo.sourceforge.net/
On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
I'm extremely sorry about not making it clearer that I don't intend to
launch a new API discussion for FOP or that I don't want to force  
anyone
to do anything. This JAFOP thing is just a personal project I thought
others might be interested in.

Thank you for your suggestions. However, I don't think that EXSLFO  
would
be the right place as it is focused to standardize on the XSL-FO
language as such, not necessarily on Java API bindings. It could, on  
the
other side, be launched as a JSR if there is sufficient interest in the
community. It also occured to me that the API might be strong enough to
accomodate other dialects like SVG. But these are just random synaptic
shots.

On 27.11.2004 06:36:47 Glen Mazza wrote:
As long as a FOP user is not *required* to use it, (i.e., they can
ignore JAFOP entirely and still call FOP's native JAXP-based API as in
our embed examples), and as long as JAFOP is implemented using our
current API, then I don't think I would have much problem with it.  I
don't want us to lose our present JAXP capabilities though--JAXP is a
useful skill for our users to become proficient in, and something I
would like us to continue promoting.
But your idea -- an interface that allows for run-time swapping of FO
processors (like JAXP allows for Xalan and Saxon to be switched) is  
not
bad at all.  I wish the folks at AH and RX would create such an
interface that we could just implement.  Two thoughts come to mind:   
(1)
perhaps we should try to reactivate that EXSLFO group and move this
topic to them, and (2) you may wish to take a look at the JAXP
specification, if you haven't recently, and see if there are any
issues/ideas/things you perhaps forgot to take into account, etc.,  
with
JAFOP.  That spec should show you what needs to be done for a common
interface to be accepted, including things you may have missed.

Jeremias Maerki

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: For our American readers...

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 25, 2004, at 9:09 AM, Andreas L. Delmelle wrote:
Happy Thanksgiving! (--that is the 25th, right? :-P)
Greetz,
Andreas
I would consider it not just for Americans, but I also give thanks for 
the entire FOP community which gives so much, and takes so little!

Cheers!
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unnecessary zipping and backups?

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 24, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Peter B. West wrote:
Clay,
Let me say, Clay, thank you *very*, *very* much for taking care of the 
alt-design tab.  Have I drawn your attention to the fact that I am 
*very happy* that you have taken care of this?

(I have thanked Clay personally out-of-band for his work on this.)
Peter
You are welcome, Peter. Thank you for your kind words! I am just glad 
to finally be done with that process. FWIW fop-dev, I created a 
mini-site of alt.design and put it on my home page:

http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/defoe/
(the only change, is that I skinned it, and created the few 
Forrest-specific files: forrest.properties, skinconf.xml, site.xml & 
tabs.xml).

I also zipped it up:
http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/defoe.zip
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unnecessary zipping and backups?

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 24, 2004, at 1:39 PM, The Web Maestro wrote:
On Nov 24, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:

Also, the output on minotaur should be viewable via
ViewCVS anyway, correct?  (We were doing manual
updates to the website to fix the breadcrumb issue--we
went through ViewCVS to find the correct pages to
update IIRC.)
Sort of. minotaur is a different location
(actually I believe minotaur does both, but the *web site* is a 
different location... the rest of my comment is unchanged)

Also, Andreas is correct that the site is built from the source (and I 
didn't forget that! ;-)). As long as the wholesite files are turned 
off, you get a BUILD SUCCESSFUL(!) at the end of a Forrest run.

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - <http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: foundation page updated

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 24, 2004, at 1:36 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
XML Graphics is now listed on the foundation page,
thanks to David Crossley/Forrest Team:
http://www.apache.org/foundation
Glen
Looks like the listed us, but didn't add us to the links in the site 
nav. In addition, does it make sense to add XML Graphics somewhere on 
the xml.apache.org page? They already need to move Forrest (and perhaps 
Lenya, there may be others...).

I'm thinking the should remove FOP & Batik from the "Projects" heading 
and create:

XML Graphics
* Overview (http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/)
* FOP (http://xml.apache.org/fop/)
* Batik (http://xml.apache.org/batik/)
They could also add some sort of blurb to the CONTENT area on their 
home page about the Apache XML Graphics Project creation and their 
assumption of managing FOP & Batik...

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unnecessary zipping and backups?

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 24, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
For #1) Wouldn't we have to keep doing that whenever a
change is made to the website as a result?  I'm
concerned with it falling out of sync with the
production website.
True, and this is a significant concern. Whomever updated the web site 
would have to also upload said changes to build/ which can/will become 
problematic.

Also, the output on minotaur should be viewable via
ViewCVS anyway, correct?  (We were doing manual
updates to the website to fix the breadcrumb issue--we
went through ViewCVS to find the correct pages to
update IIRC.)
Sort of. minotaur is a different location, and I don't even know if it 
has CVS (I just upload the darn site using FTP--actually *cough* 
Dreamweaver does it for me). Once a forrestbot is set up, it can be 
done via a web-based interface, although that may take a while. I 
believe they're waiting for some new servers or something, and their 
hair started going gray some time ago... Hopefully, when the forrestbot 
is built, they'll let infrastructure@ know, and fop-dev can take the 
steps to create a forrestbot to handle xml-fop.

FWIW, as far as I understand, forrestbot is not much more than:
- run the /forrest/ command
- if successful, cp -R build/ /www/xml.apache.org/fop
- let fop-dev@ know whether or not it was successful when it's done
For #2) Oh ye of little faith! ;) Aren't we eventually
going to have a full-site PDF anyway?  Then
non-internet installations can just save a copy of the
PDF locally after they download the software.  (I
guess they have to be connected at some time to the
'Net though...)  Perhaps saving the full site PDF once
we get it may be more efficient.
Glen
D'oh! I agree. having a wholesite.pdf file is a *much* better solution. 
As Emily Litella would say, "Never mind..."

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unnecessary zipping and backups?

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 24, 2004, at 11:52 AM, The Web Maestro wrote:
On a similar note, I am 'contemplating' committing the xml-fop/build/ 
folder ('built' by apache-forrest-0.6). My reasoning for this is 
two-fold:
1. it contains the FOP web site (which I've spent a significant amount 
of time to re-create).
2. it can serve as off-line of documentation (for those installations 
not connected to the internet).

We may not need to do this since it *is* on minotaur.apache.org...
I meant to ask FOP-DEV... what are your thoughts on my COMMITTING 
xml-fop's Forrest-generated build/ directory structure?

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - <http://homepage.mac.com/webmaestro/>
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Unnecessary zipping and backups?

[The Web Maestro]

Yeah, Glen...
On Nov 23, 2004, at 8:18 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
Clay,
I'm noticing a lot of .zips and .bak backup files in our cvs 
directories [1] -- this seems unnecessary and a bit messy for a 
version control system, as everyone who "cvs checkout"s or "cvs 
updates" is now downloading these files.  Instead of zip files, 
usually the solution is just to "cvs remove" the files -- they will 
automatically go into the cvs attic as a result (they are not actually 
deleted -- ViewCVS lists them as "dead" but they are always still 
retrievable.)

For backup files, we can always go to older versions by clicking on 
the first column in ViewCVS ([2], for an example version list).  So I 
don't think we have a need for creating any ".bak" files either.  If 
there is a message you wish to store with a particular version before 
moving forward, just make a *very* minor change to the file (say, move 
a character or add a blank line), and add your comment when you cvs 
commit.

Can we get these zip's and bak's removed?  Just "cvs remove" them -- 
get them in the attic so people aren't downloading them on a cvs 
checkout.
I actually added those, so they'd be put in the attic... I'd intended 
to remove them shortly thereafter but I've been a bit busy with... 
erm... other stuff. Thanks for the 'ping' about it!

On a similar note, I am 'contemplating' committing the xml-fop/build/ 
folder ('built' by apache-forrest-0.6). My reasoning for this is 
two-fold: 1. it contains the FOP web site (which I've spent a 
significant amount of time to re-create).
2. it can serve as off-line of documentation (for those installations 
not connected to the internet).

We may not need to do this since it *is* on minotaur.apache.org...
BTW -- thanks *very* much for taking care of the alt-design tab, I 
greatly appreciate the effort in simplifying our site.
Glad to be of service. If there are other things which anyone thinks 
can improve the site (e.g. consolidating pages, removing 
moved/incorrect/inappropriate content, etc.) please let me know.

Thanks,
Glen
[1] http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml-fop/
[2] 
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml-fop/build.bat?rev=1.22&view=log
Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet

Re: Adding competing products to FOP Resources page

[The Web Maestro]

On Nov 22, 2004, at 5:56 PM, Victor Mote wrote:
Clay Leeds wrote:
I'm contemplating adding the following products to the FOP Resources
page:
- FOray
- Defoe
...while I'm at it, I might as well add:
- RenderX - XEP
- AntennaHouse - XSL Formatter
Thanks for doing that Clay. I think this will be good for FOP's users, 
and
it should be good for FOP too. Essentially FOray can be testing and
improving these modules and interfaces while FOP works on the layout. 
Kind
of a competitive cooperation, or something like that.

Victor Mote
I agree. I think it's good for FOP, and I believe others agreed as 
well. Keep up the good work!

Web Maestro Clay
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 
My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.
- HH The 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet