Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: :- Both of which are bugs imported from NetBSD. Obviously a matter of opinion. I think declarative DSLs for this kind of things are a good idea. But I understand some people want to do everything by hand in good-old C, and won't stop until it is ripped from their cold, dead fingers. ;-) -- Robert Withrow -- (+1 978 288 8256) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Nik Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That being the case, it wouldn't be too hard to do commant lang="ja_JP.EUCjp".../comment comment lang="es_ES.ISO_8859-1".../comment and so on, would it? If so, translated comment field can be obsolete while the author's one is always up-to-date. The comment field is edited by the original author, but translators are responsible for the others. Translation is not always done immediately. So, I think a way is needed to indicate whether the translation is old or not. Or does loading Japanese text in to a non-Japanese aware editor scramble the text? Probably it is not a big problem for editors, but other tools are OK? A file including characters in various encodings may confuse them. -- | Hiroki Sato/HRS [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | [EMAIL PROTECTED](univ) |[EMAIL PROTECTED](FreeBSD doc-jp Project) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jun Kuriyama writes: : Of course, source tree are for programmers. First thing we should : consider is not to stress programmers for that procedure. Nik's : suggestion is more conceptual one. We need more discussion for this : subject. I think that a large part of my reaction was the part about going out of our way to force this down the throats of the programmers. On relfection, having dozens of mumble.xml files through the tree that the doc project can use would be good. Having it be the only way to have kernel options might be desirable in some ways, ugly in others. If it is one big .xml file, then I'd have to think that that isn't desrable at all. We're trying to get away from that sort of thing. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Garrett
Wollman writes:
: using XML is same process such as using src/sys/dev/usb/usbdevs. As
: you know, generation of usbdevs{,_data}.h is done by awk script. And
: same procedure is done in src/sys/dev/pccarddevs for generating
: pccarddevs{,_data}.h.
:
: Both of which are bugs imported from NetBSD.
Agreed. I've not taken the time to clean this up. There are some
cross module issues in doing this that I'm not clear on how to solve.
Warner
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Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Withrow writes: : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: : :- Both of which are bugs imported from NetBSD. : : Obviously a matter of opinion. I think declarative DSLs for : this kind of things are a good idea. The problem is that they are generated files that are checked into the tree. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: : I was thinking of something analogous to the way syscalls.master is used : to generate several files. This works well for syscalls.master, but I don't think it would work well in the driver area. Call me crazy. I will readily admit that I know nothing about how the drivers are implemented, so perhaps I'm the crazy one. If it can be done, though, I think it would be a good idea. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:24:01PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 11:27:12AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: : Warner Losh wrote: : : Any reason that the .c/.h files of the drivers couldn't be used to : generate this information? : : Or perhaps the other way around. : : That's what I'd prefer. Any solution that relys on trying to parse : "structured comments" like that is a kludge at best. I'd rather get : all this information in to a usefully structured form now, and then : process it to produce the various output formats we need. I think that this will doom the information to always being obsolete. If the information is in the .h or .c files, then it will be looked at (and corrected) all the time by the programmers. If not, then it will rot as badly as LINT has been rotting. It has taken much effort to keep LINT as non-rotten as it has been kept. The .h file(s) should be generated from this XML config file, or some other mechanism needs to be put in place to prevent a (hardware) module from working if there isn't a functional entry for it in this XML config file. We've successfully demonstrated that hardware authors don't keep things like LINT up to date. We've also successfully demonstrated that getting volunteers to scan the mailing lists and keep HARDWARE.TXT and similar up to date is equally futile. It's time to turn the tables. I don't know enough about the -current build environment to say precisely how this could be done (yet). But God help you all if I scrape together sufficient resources to put together a box for -current. In the meantime, I'd appreciate suggestions as to how you (or anyone else) would go about abstracting some of the core information that a driver needs out of a source file. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : The .h file(s) should be generated from this XML config file, or some other : mechanism needs to be put in place to prevent a (hardware) module from : working if there isn't a functional entry for it in this XML config file. : : We've successfully demonstrated that hardware authors don't keep things : like LINT up to date. We've also successfully demonstrated that getting : volunteers to scan the mailing lists and keep HARDWARE.TXT and similar : up to date is equally futile. : : It's time to turn the tables. I'd violently oppose this. I'd rather see the XML file generated from the .h files that we already use to build the system with. You would be making it just as hard to keep things up to date with little gain from the programmer's point of view. You need to make it easier for the programmer to keep things up to date rather than harder. : I don't know enough about the -current build environment to say precisely : how this could be done (yet). But God help you all if I scrape together : sufficient resources to put together a box for -current. : : In the meantime, I'd appreciate suggestions as to how you (or anyone else) : would go about abstracting some of the core information that a driver needs : out of a source file. While I hate the idea, I'd love to see what you'd come up with. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : : Any reason that the .c/.h files of the drivers couldn't be used to : generate this information? : : Or perhaps the other way around. No. I'm saying that the .c and .h files (likely .h) are the source to the driver and driver maintanier are 1000% more likely to keep those up to date than they are xxx.xml. Right now, with modules, you can easily not have to worry about any config issues outside of those files. Forcing a doc file just to get docs and breaking this is undesirable. Expanding what the driver writers are already doing a little seems like a smarter move. I was thinking of something analogous to the way syscalls.master is used to generate several files. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: : I was thinking of something analogous to the way syscalls.master is used : to generate several files. This works well for syscalls.master, but I don't think it would work well in the driver area. Call me crazy. However, I'll take an open and honest look at anything people come up with in this area. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
So, this is what I worried about. :-)
At 29 Jun 2000 16:01:36 GMT,
Warner Losh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'd violently oppose this. I'd rather see the XML file generated from
the .h files that we already use to build the system with. You would
be making it just as hard to keep things up to date with little gain
from the programmer's point of view. You need to make it easier for
the programmer to keep things up to date rather than harder.
From the documentation point of view, XML source file should be used
to generate other "rendered" text such as *.c/*.h. In principle,
using XML is same process such as using src/sys/dev/usb/usbdevs. As
you know, generation of usbdevs{,_data}.h is done by awk script. And
same procedure is done in src/sys/dev/pccarddevs for generating
pccarddevs{,_data}.h.
I think what Nik wants to say is, suggesting standard scheme to
generate these files from human readable source file. And he suggests
XML as that source file format.
Of course, source tree are for programmers. First thing we should
consider is not to stress programmers for that procedure. Nik's
suggestion is more conceptual one. We need more discussion for this
subject.
# Nik, we should explain more about XML for freebsd-current people
# before stepping forward. :-)
--
Jun Kuriyama [EMAIL PROTECTED] // FreeBSD Project
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Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:08:50 +0900, Jun Kuriyama [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
using XML is same process such as using src/sys/dev/usb/usbdevs. As
you know, generation of usbdevs{,_data}.h is done by awk script. And
same procedure is done in src/sys/dev/pccarddevs for generating
pccarddevs{,_data}.h.
Both of which are bugs imported from NetBSD.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | O Siem / The fires of freedom
Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame
MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick
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Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Any reason that the .c/.h files of the drivers couldn't be used to generate this information? I think it would greatly enhance the ability of the aintainer to update it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:06:57PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : In my world, this XML file would be a replacement for many of the files : in src/sys/conf/. Or, at the very least, those files would be generated : from this XML file. As a developer, if you don't update the file the : system won't even know about your driver (or option). I'm not sure how well this would work. Modules already obviate the need to update stuff in sys/conf. S'fine, that's why this was cc'd to -current. I need input from people involved in the future technical direction of FreeBSD. How are we going to enumerate FreeBSD's supported hardware list in 5.x and beyond? N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:06:57PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : In my world, this XML file would be a replacement for many of the files : in src/sys/conf/. Or, at the very least, those files would be generated : from this XML file. As a developer, if you don't update the file the : system won't even know about your driver (or option). I'm not sure how well this would work. Modules already obviate the need to update stuff in sys/conf. S'fine, that's why this was cc'd to -current. I need input from people involved in the future technical direction of FreeBSD. How are we going to enumerate FreeBSD's supported hardware list in 5.x and beyond? N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:02:07PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : Another script would parse the above and generate HARDWARE.TXT. And another : could parse the above and spit out DocBook for the Handbook and FAQ. There's some problems witht his. the ed driver supports a whole raft of cards, but who can list them all? Initially, the driver's author. Over time, user submissions will indicate whether a particular driver supports a particular card. All I want to do is make sure that this information only needs to be maintained in one place. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:02:07PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : Another script would parse the above and generate HARDWARE.TXT. And another : could parse the above and spit out DocBook for the Handbook and FAQ. There's some problems witht his. the ed driver supports a whole raft of cards, but who can list them all? Initially, the driver's author. Over time, user submissions will indicate whether a particular driver supports a particular card. All I want to do is make sure that this information only needs to be maintained in one place. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Warner Losh wrote: Any reason that the .c/.h files of the drivers couldn't be used to generate this information? Or perhaps the other way around. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:49:34PM +0900, Hiroki Sato wrote: Nik Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [ That schema is not set in stone, and certainly requires more work. In particular, we probably need "lang" and "encoding" options on the comment element, to support comments in more than one language. ] LINT would then become a skeletal file for things which don't fit this sort of pattern, and the full LINT would be generated by a script which parsed the above and the skeletal file to generate the full LINT. I think it is difficult to maintain the files because few editors can handle various languages/encodings at the same time. So, especially for translators, it is better that the .xml files are separated on a encoding/language basis. Possibly. I was thinking that the only thing that would be language specific about each driver would be the comment section. comment.../comment All the other stuff is language independent. That being the case, it wouldn't be too hard to do commant lang="ja_JP.EUCjp".../comment comment lang="es_ES.ISO_8859-1".../comment and so on, would it? Or does loading Japanese text in to a non-Japanese aware editor scramble the text? N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 11:27:12AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: Warner Losh wrote: Any reason that the .c/.h files of the drivers couldn't be used to generate this information? Or perhaps the other way around. That's what I'd prefer. Any solution that relys on trying to parse "structured comments" like that is a kludge at best. I'd rather get all this information in to a usefully structured form now, and then process it to produce the various output formats we need. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
| I disagree. We're not Linux, where people can throw in code without thought | to the wider consequences -- one of the commitments you should make (that's | a generic "you" there, not you specifically) as a FreeBSD committer is to | maintain the documentation that's affected by your changes. A look at | HARDWARE.TXT shows that (with a few notable exceptions) the FreeBSD Developer | Community at large is *not* keeping it up to date. Perhaps it would be a good idea to assign someone the task of just maintaing the HARDWARE.TXT file, rather than expecting all developers to keep documentation up to date? Warner is the gatekeeper for UPDATING, and it seems to work rather well. If there is no one explicitly on the doc project that you'd like doing this, I'd take on the responsibility. -- Dan Moschuk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "Don't get even -- get odd!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
| Perhaps it would be a good idea to assign someone the task of just maintaing | the HARDWARE.TXT file, rather than expecting all developers to keep | documentation up to date? | | That is what I am currently doing (at least trying to.. ;-) for | FreeBSD/alpha. But considering that the alpha community is considerably | smaller this might be a problem in the much bigger x86 world. Right, but as someone that reads all the commit messages, catching new driver support and updating is more of a mundane task than anything. If maintainers emailed when they added new support (like when an entry in UPDATING is needed) it's even easier. -- Dan Moschuk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "Don't get even -- get odd!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:45:25PM -0400, Dan Moschuk wrote: | Perhaps it would be a good idea to assign someone the task of just maintaing | the HARDWARE.TXT file, rather than expecting all developers to keep | documentation up to date? | | That is what I am currently doing (at least trying to.. ;-) for | FreeBSD/alpha. But considering that the alpha community is considerably | smaller this might be a problem in the much bigger x86 world. Right, but as someone that reads all the commit messages, catching new driver support and updating is more of a mundane task than anything. If maintainers emailed when they added new support (like when an entry in UPDATING is needed) it's even easier. We can always dream, can we? ;-) I don't read all commit messages, rather procmail sifts: # want commit messages related to alpha saved :0: * ^Subject:.*cvs commit.*alpha $MAILDIR/commit-mail the alpha stuff from them. -- Wilko Bulte http://www.freebsd.org "Do, or do not. There is no try" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nlfug.nl Yoda - The Empire Strikes Back To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
* From: Nik Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Possibly. I was thinking that the only thing that would be language * specific about each driver would be the comment section. * * comment.../comment * * All the other stuff is language independent. * * That being the case, it wouldn't be too hard to do * * commant lang="ja_JP.EUCjp".../comment * * comment lang="es_ES.ISO_8859-1".../comment * * and so on, would it? * * Or does loading Japanese text in to a non-Japanese aware editor scramble * the text? With ja_JP.eucJP, it certainly would, since that's an 8-bit encoding. If you use JIS, it should be ok (as long as people pretend they don't see all the ^['s hanging around and don't try to do anything cute). Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dan Moschuk writes: : Perhaps it would be a good idea to assign someone the task of just maintaing : the HARDWARE.TXT file, rather than expecting all developers to keep : documentation up to date? This can be difficult to do. It will take someone with enough cycles to grok the new hardware support, as well as monitoring lists for reports of trouble, etc. : Warner is the gatekeeper for UPDATING, and it seems to work rather well. Yes. Sometimes less well than other times. when I have about 2 hours a week to spend on it or more, it works a lot better than when I'm completely swamped... I think it is working because I wanted to stop the whining in -current about how hard it was to keep up with current. UPDATING has gone from a very terse warning bulletin to a less terse, fairly useful document as the rough spots in the road get written up well by others and I pick from the N different copies I get. Still, it is somewhat quirky. I'd Kinda like to see it somehow on the web pages updated in near real time (well, daily is close enough :-) : I'd take on the responsibility. Good luck! Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : : Any reason that the .c/.h files of the drivers couldn't be used to : generate this information? : : Or perhaps the other way around. No. I'm saying that the .c and .h files (likely .h) are the source to the driver and driver maintanier are 1000% more likely to keep those up to date than they are xxx.xml. Right now, with modules, you can easily not have to worry about any config issues outside of those files. Forcing a doc file just to get docs and breaking this is undesirable. Expanding what the driver writers are already doing a little seems like a smarter move. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : Or does loading Japanese text in to a non-Japanese aware editor scramble : the text? It can, if the user editing the text isn't careful, or the editor likes to do too many things automatically. Generally speaking, however, it shouldn't be a big problem. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 01:49:36PM -0400, Dan Moschuk wrote: | I disagree. We're not Linux, where people can throw in code without thought | to the wider consequences -- one of the commitments you should make (that's | a generic "you" there, not you specifically) as a FreeBSD committer is to | maintain the documentation that's affected by your changes. A look at | HARDWARE.TXT shows that (with a few notable exceptions) the FreeBSD Developer | Community at large is *not* keeping it up to date. Perhaps it would be a good idea to assign someone the task of just maintaing the HARDWARE.TXT file, rather than expecting all developers to keep documentation up to date? That is what I am currently doing (at least trying to.. ;-) for FreeBSD/alpha. But considering that the alpha community is considerably smaller this might be a problem in the much bigger x86 world. -- Wilko Bulte http://www.freebsd.org "Do, or do not. There is no try" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nlfug.nl Yoda - The Empire Strikes Back To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Nik Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [ That schema is not set in stone, and certainly requires more work. In particular, we probably need "lang" and "encoding" options on the comment element, to support comments in more than one language. ] LINT would then become a skeletal file for things which don't fit this sort of pattern, and the full LINT would be generated by a script which parsed the above and the skeletal file to generate the full LINT. I think it is difficult to maintain the files because few editors can handle various languages/encodings at the same time. So, especially for translators, it is better that the .xml files are separated on a encoding/language basis. However, separated .xml files according to encoding/language like FreeBSD Handbook also cause another problem. If these files are used to create actual configuration files as not only doc or advisory purpose, translated .xml files but are not synchronized with English version can be more harmful. For instance, the out-dated translation couldn't create an appropriate LINT, so non-English readers cannot know modifications in the original file. Thus, configuration items that don't need to translate should be common, and others such as description field that can be translated should be separated, and it is better that latter separated .xml files (i.e. translated one) have a additional marker that indicates whether a file is synch'ed with the original version or not. Nik Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The aim is that we have one file that describes the drivers -- this file will be used by us to keep the documentation up to date, but it will also be used by the system -- if the driver writer doesn't update this file then the system won't know about their driver, and won't build it. They'll *have* to keep it up to date. One file...why? A port in Ports Collection depends on some files not one file, but it works fine. I think we can maintain more easily several small files than big one file. -- | Hiroki Sato/HRS [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | [EMAIL PROTECTED](univ) |[EMAIL PROTECTED](FreeBSD doc-jp Project) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
XML driver config file to replace LINT
[ Sent to -doc, for info, -current for some expert advice on the feasability of this approach with FreeBSD's migration to a kernel consisting only of aggregated devices. ] We have a problem with keeping our documentation up to date. One of the most glaring examples of this is the hardware compatability list. We currently list hardware information in LINT, HARDWARE.TXT, the FAQ, and the Handbook. Any time this information changes it has to be updated in all these places (and possibly more). This does not always happen. I'm thinking of abstracting out our list of supported hardware in to one file, marked up according to an XML DTD. Something like [...] device classkeyboard controller/class configdevice atkbdc0 at isa? port IO_KBD/config commentThe keyboard controller; it controls the keyboard and the PS/2 mouse./comment /device device classkeyboard/class configdevice atkbd0 at atkbdc? irq 1/config commentThe AT keyboard/command options optionATKBD_DFLT_KEYMAP/option commentSpecify the built-in keymap/comment optionKBD_DISABLE_KEYMAP_LOAD/option commentRefuse to load a keymap/comment optionKBD_INSTALL_CDEV/option commentInstall a CDEV entry in /dev/comment /options flags flag0x01/flag commentForce detection of keyboard, else we always assume a keyboard/comment flag0x02/flag commentDon't reset keyboard, useful for some new ThinkPads/comment flag0x04/flag commentOld-style (XT) keyboard support, useful for older ThinkPads/comment /flags /device [ That schema is not set in stone, and certainly requires more work. In particular, we probably need "lang" and "encoding" options on the comment element, to support comments in more than one language. ] LINT would then become a skeletal file for things which don't fit this sort of pattern, and the full LINT would be generated by a script which parsed the above and the skeletal file to generate the full LINT. Another script would parse the above and generate HARDWARE.TXT. And another could parse the above and spit out DocBook for the Handbook and FAQ. Still another (CGI) script could sit on the website. I'm enamoured of BSDi's hardware selection CGI script on their website. You can choose from a drop down list of supported hardware and/or manufacturers, or do a free text search, and get back a formatted list of all the matching hardware, entries for the kernel config file, links back to the manufacturer's website where necessary, and comments about the suitability or otherwise of specific hardware for specific tasks. We could do something similar today without the above, XML stuff, but it would require duplicating the hardware list in yet another place, which would be a bad thing. The solution I'm proposing would keep all the hardware information in one place, where it would be the driver developer's responsibility to maintain. What I don't know is how this scheme fits in with FreeBSD's future direction. From scanning -current I know that the aim is to have a kernel with very few devices compiled in to it -- devices will be probed once, and if the probe runs true the rest of the device driver will be loaded in. In particular, the phrase "config(8) must die" is bandied about with increasing frequency. I assume, however, that there will still be a place for a statically compiled and configured FreeBSD kernel -- embedded devices, or where you don't want the kernel to load certain devices, or whatever. Can -current provide -doc with a roadmap of where we're heading in this respect, and how a scheme like the above should fit in. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
At 26 Jun 2000 09:33:30 GMT, nik wrote: We have a problem with keeping our documentation up to date. One of the most glaring examples of this is the hardware compatability list. We currently list hardware information in LINT, HARDWARE.TXT, the FAQ, and the Handbook. Any time this information changes it has to be updated in all these places (and possibly more). This does not always happen. I don't like "Everything should be written in XML" type thought. But consept for automatic updating of document would be fine. So first of all, we (documentation project) should develop prototype tool to achive that conversion. And we should keep that master text simple to ease modification by hackers. If we force to write complex markups, hackers will *forget* to update that master text. :-) LINT would then become a skeletal file for things which don't fit this sort of pattern, and the full LINT would be generated by a script which parsed the above and the skeletal file to generate the full LINT. I think developpers may dislike to install doc toolchain to build LINT file. $CVSROOT/src tree should not depend on doc toolchain. Another idea is to write some script to convert LINT to LINT.xml for documentation. And website and documents depend on it. Yes, this is not ideal world from the point of SGML/XML view, but we should not bother hackers' development in the source tree. -- Jun Kuriyama [EMAIL PROTECTED] // FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:27:39PM +0900, Jun Kuriyama wrote: So first of all, we (documentation project) should develop prototype tool to achive that conversion. And we should keep that master text simple to ease modification by hackers. If we force to write complex markups, hackers will *forget* to update that master text. :-) The aim is that we have one file that describes the drivers -- this file will be used by us to keep the documentation up to date, but it will also be used by the system -- if the driver writer doesn't update this file then the system won't know about their driver, and won't build it. They'll *have* to keep it up to date. LINT would then become a skeletal file for things which don't fit this sort of pattern, and the full LINT would be generated by a script which parsed the above and the skeletal file to generate the full LINT. I think developpers may dislike to install doc toolchain to build LINT file. $CVSROOT/src tree should not depend on doc toolchain. Agreed. But Perl (already in the base system) plus a Perl XML module should be OK? Another idea is to write some script to convert LINT to LINT.xml for documentation. And website and documents depend on it. Yes, this is not ideal world from the point of SGML/XML view, but we should not bother hackers' development in the source tree. I disagree. We're not Linux, where people can throw in code without thought to the wider consequences -- one of the commitments you should make (that's a generic "you" there, not you specifically) as a FreeBSD committer is to maintain the documentation that's affected by your changes. A look at HARDWARE.TXT shows that (with a few notable exceptions) the FreeBSD Developer Community at large is *not* keeping it up to date. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
Jun Kuriyama wrote: And we should keep that master text simple to ease modification by hackers. If we force to write complex markups, hackers will *forget* to update that master text. :-) I'm not sure I would *forget* it, but I my indulge in "forget"ing it. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Windows works, for sufficently small values of "works". To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:40:44PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: Jun Kuriyama wrote: And we should keep that master text simple to ease modification by hackers. If we force to write complex markups, hackers will *forget* to update that master text. :-) I'm not sure I would *forget* it, but I my indulge in "forget"ing it. :-) How about a couple of fields in the driver source itself, along the lines of http://publicsource.apple.com/projects/headerdoc/ If it's part of the source that the developers are working with, then it's more likely to stay "right". Of course we all know that comment bugs exist. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:40:44PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: Jun Kuriyama wrote: And we should keep that master text simple to ease modification by hackers. If we force to write complex markups, hackers will *forget* to update that master text. :-) I'm not sure I would *forget* it, but I my indulge in "forget"ing it. :-) Typical, I've found the files I was looking for after I make the post. In my world, this XML file would be a replacement for many of the files in src/sys/conf/. Or, at the very least, those files would be generated from this XML file. As a developer, if you don't update the file the system won't even know about your driver (or option). N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : In my world, this XML file would be a replacement for many of the files : in src/sys/conf/. Or, at the very least, those files would be generated : from this XML file. As a developer, if you don't update the file the : system won't even know about your driver (or option). I'm not sure how well this would work. Modules already obviate the need to update stuff in sys/conf. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: XML driver config file to replace LINT
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nik Clayton writes: : Another script would parse the above and generate HARDWARE.TXT. And another : could parse the above and spit out DocBook for the Handbook and FAQ. There's some problems witht his. the ed driver supports a whole raft of cards, but who can list them all? Other than that, I like the idea. There's a real, pressing need to know if pccard FOO-bar is supported or is known to work or not in the current version. The PAO folks did a great job with this in their lists of cards known to work. Figuring out how to setup a database with all of this information is going to be tricky. The Japanese nomads were talking about this at one point, and if they come up with someting for pccard, it could likely be extended to all types of cards. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
