Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-09 Thread Robert Huff

Corey Mosher writes:

>  What would actually be quite nice is to have a fancy GUI install
>  in addition to the current one.  Then at the beginning of the
>  install you can decide whether you really want to install FreeBSD
>  or look at the pretty lights in the fancy GUI version.  Option 1
>  is choose the current way, option 2 is go the GUI method.  This
>  gives people the flexible "old fashioned" way to install while at
>  the same time getting people through the install who may be less
>  experienced buy using the GUI version.

There's an additional variable here, that I haven't seen
anybody mention.
It is desirable to have a uniform installation process, no
matter what the media.  This means the hard-working folks in Release
Engineering only have to wrangle one set of code.
It is also desirable to have a small installation process, so
deisrable I think this is a matter of official policy.  (Can anyone
confirm or deny this?)  As of ... somewhere late in 3.x or early in
4.x, I think ... one could run the entire essential install off one
3.5 floppy.
Then it was two.
Now it's three, if you need some not-so-uncommon drivers.
Will the sky fall if we go to four?  No.  But "cost" of each
additional disk goes up.  I don't assume everyone has a 52x CDROM,
any more than I assume thay have a 3mbps cable connection.
(I'm neither for or against a GUI installer. I just want to be
sure we're all playing with the same deck.)


Robert Huff





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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-09 Thread Corey Mosher
What would actually be quite nice is to have a fancy GUI install in 
addition to the current one.  Then at the beginning of the install you 
can decide whether you really want to install FreeBSD or look at the 
pretty lights in the fancy GUI version.  Option 1 is choose the current 
way, option 2 is go the GUI method.  This gives people the flexible "old 
fashioned" way to install while at the same time getting people through 
the install who may be less experienced buy using the GUI version.

I think in general though, most people who install FreeBSD are capable 
enough that they know what they are doing once you read the docs and 
follow the onscreen instructions.

Corey

Jud wrote:
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:28:44 -0500, Parv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

in message  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
wrote [EMAIL PROTECTED] thusly...

I just want to know what the moderator thinks about this and the
ethical conditions that are touched...


There is no official moderator per se.  I think whom you are looking
for is "nanny" or "philosopher" ...
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame17.html

Also are these kinds of posts tolerated?


Well, you are seeing them on this list, aren't you?  This will go on
until one side tires or looses interest, only to be revived some
time later.  As always.


Just to shoehorn this thread back a bit in the direction whence it came:

Looking at http://www.distrowatch.com/>, specifically the page 
hit  rankings (on the right and down a little), at the moment the 
5th-ranked  Linux distro with an upward trend is Debian, whose install 
makes FreeBSD's  look like an automated marvel in comparison.  
6th-ranked, also with an  upward trend, is Gentoo, whose install is also 
relatively non-automated  and whose install instructions (the equivalent 
of the Handbook sections on  installation) are often noted for their 
difficulty.  8th-ranked, again  with an upward trend, is Slackware, 
whose text-based install is very  similar to FreeBSD's, with perhaps a 
bit more help text available.

Granted that the top 4 distros either have automagic installs 
(Mandrake,  Fedora/Red Hat) or no install at all (Knoppix, the 
Debian-based "live  CD"), it appears not to be true that popularity (at 
least the *nix world  version) requires a graphical automated install, 
were that the goal of the  FreeBSD project.

Jud
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-09 Thread Chuck Swiger
Parv wrote:
in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
wrote Mark Frank thusly...
[ ... ]
It seems the Message-ID pattern has not changed.  Oops, did i say
that out loud?
Yes.  :-)  Well, this mailing list could use a little comedy now and again-- 
while I cannot say that amusing other people is a goal of mine, still, we all 
try to do our part.

--
-Chuck
PS: To Rommel aka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: if you've ever dealt with lawyers or 
that ilk, you'll rapidly encounter what are popularly called "nastygrams", 
which imply that horribly bad things will happen unless the receipient stops 
doing things you (meaning the laywer's client) don't want them to do. 
Nastygrams are typically sent via certified mail and look really impressive, 
but they generally don't mean much, unless they come from a judge.

The primary purpose is to cause the receipient to have to spend lots of time 
and resources arguing whatever the issue may be (hopefully more than the 
sender does), until one side gives up.  So much for justice, hmm?  True, once 
in a while, under airtight circumstances and in an ideal black-and-white 
world, you'll win summary judgement...otherwise, no matter who is wrong or 
right, expect to waste a great deal of time (and sometimes money).

[ IANAL, TINLA. ]

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-09 Thread Jerry McAllister
> 
> > On Mar 8, 2004, at 10:17 AM, JJB wrote:
> >> My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
> >> search engines yet.
> >> www.a1poweruser.com
> >> Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
> >> step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.
> >
> > Please do not astroturf the FreeBSD mailing lists.
> >
> > By endorsing your own commercial site as if you had no connection with
> > it, you are violating 15 U.S.C. 52, see
> > http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/endorse:
> >
> > "§255.5 Disclosure of material connections.
> >
> > When there exists a connection between the endorser and the seller of
> > the advertised product which might materially affect the weight or
> > credibility of the endorsement (i.e.,  the connection is not reasonably
> > expected by the audience) such connection must be fully disclosed. [
> > ... ]"
> >
> > --
> > -Chuck
> 
> 
> As a relatively newcomer to these lists, I was wondering who is correct in
> their ideas? The guy who introduced his nifty "spider bot" or the guy
> telling us all that the other guy is breaking a law.  I don't like getting
> mixed up in flamewars or even minor skirmishes, I just want to know what
> the moderator thinks about this and the ethical conditions that are
> touched...
> Also are these kinds of posts tolerated?

Don't worry.   Soon they will get bored and go try to dig in
some other sandbox, or else their mommies will tell them it
is time to come in for lunch.

Then things will quiet down again and people can get some
usefule work done again.

jerry

> 
> Rommel
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-09 Thread Jud
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:28:44 -0500, Parv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

in message  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
wrote [EMAIL PROTECTED] thusly...
I just want to know what the moderator thinks about this and the
ethical conditions that are touched...
There is no official moderator per se.  I think whom you are looking
for is "nanny" or "philosopher" ...
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame17.html

Also are these kinds of posts tolerated?
Well, you are seeing them on this list, aren't you?  This will go on
until one side tires or looses interest, only to be revived some
time later.  As always.
Just to shoehorn this thread back a bit in the direction whence it came:

Looking at http://www.distrowatch.com/>, specifically the page hit  
rankings (on the right and down a little), at the moment the 5th-ranked  
Linux distro with an upward trend is Debian, whose install makes FreeBSD's  
look like an automated marvel in comparison.  6th-ranked, also with an  
upward trend, is Gentoo, whose install is also relatively non-automated  
and whose install instructions (the equivalent of the Handbook sections on  
installation) are often noted for their difficulty.  8th-ranked, again  
with an upward trend, is Slackware, whose text-based install is very  
similar to FreeBSD's, with perhaps a bit more help text available.

Granted that the top 4 distros either have automagic installs (Mandrake,  
Fedora/Red Hat) or no install at all (Knoppix, the Debian-based "live  
CD"), it appears not to be true that popularity (at least the *nix world  
version) requires a graphical automated install, were that the goal of the  
FreeBSD project.

Jud
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Parv
in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
wrote [EMAIL PROTECTED] thusly...
>
> I just want to know what the moderator thinks about this and the
> ethical conditions that are touched...

There is no official moderator per se.  I think whom you are looking
for is "nanny" or "philosopher" ...

  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame17.html


> Also are these kinds of posts tolerated?

Well, you are seeing them on this list, aren't you?  This will go on
until one side tires or looses interest, only to be revived some
time later.  As always.


  - Parv

-- 

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread rfa
> On Mar 8, 2004, at 10:17 AM, JJB wrote:
>> My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
>> search engines yet.
>> www.a1poweruser.com
>> Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
>> step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.
>
> Please do not astroturf the FreeBSD mailing lists.
>
> By endorsing your own commercial site as if you had no connection with
> it, you are violating 15 U.S.C. 52, see
> http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/endorse:
>
> "§255.5 Disclosure of material connections.
>
> When there exists a connection between the endorser and the seller of
> the advertised product which might materially affect the weight or
> credibility of the endorsement (i.e.,  the connection is not reasonably
> expected by the audience) such connection must be fully disclosed. [
> ... ]"
>
> --
> -Chuck


As a relatively newcomer to these lists, I was wondering who is correct in
their ideas? The guy who introduced his nifty "spider bot" or the guy
telling us all that the other guy is breaking a law.  I don't like getting
mixed up in flamewars or even minor skirmishes, I just want to know what
the moderator thinks about this and the ethical conditions that are
touched...
Also are these kinds of posts tolerated?

Rommel



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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Parv
in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
wrote Mark Frank thusly...
>
> * On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:17:00AM -0500 JJB wrote:
> > My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
> > search engines yet.
> > www.a1poweruser.com
> 
> Hey JJB, fbsd_user, Barbish or whoever you are this week,

It seems the Message-ID pattern has not changed.  Oops, did i say
that out loud?


  - Parv

-- 

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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Thompson, Jimi

Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user
friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat
or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for technology is to make people
lives easier right?


Before the flames start, let me state that I am a HUGE FreeBSD fan.  I use
it at home.  I use it at work.  We are migrating away from RedHat (since
it's no longer open source) to FreeBSD. I also own a Mac with OS X.  

I think that the point here is to coax the "average" Windows user, who has
an innate fear of the command line, to use FreeBSD.  The problem is that we
can discuss this as a technical issue until Satan hands out snow shoes, but
it won't change the fact that this is a HUMAN issue.  While I agree that an
OS without a GUI is by far TECHNICALLY superior, it is NOT the superior in
the minds of most end users.  It's a terror inducing, awe-striking behemoth.


Most non-technical people like GUI's because they neither want to know nor
should they need to know the gazillion command line entries and options.
That's the kind of thing that makes us "the pros" at what we do.  PC's
didn't become popular for home use until the advent of the GUI.  Apple,
despite many technical decisions that I can't agree with, are still with us
because of the wonderful user interface.  Windows, all bashing aside, is not
the most desirable operating system for a variety of TECHNICAL reasons, but
it still maintains it market share.  Why?  Because it offers two things 1)
the comfort factor that comes with familiarity and 2) the "wizards" to
accomplish fairly complex tasks by making selections in a GUI.  This alone
should point out that the user interface is NOT a technical issue.

I think that the ultimate flaw in much of the logic I see here is in
assuming that we, being the programmers, system administrators, hackers,
etc., that we all are on list, know what end users want.  We soo are NOT
the average end user.  I think I can safely say that we left being end users
ourselves behind so long ago that we've forgotten what it's like. Think
about what your Mother (or at least mine :)) would want to use.  Actually
having to go to the command line, when you've been trained by decades of M$
products that this a very bad thing to do, and type stuff in terrifies her.
She's always certain that she's going to make a mistake and blow things up.


2 cents,

Jimi
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Lewis Thompson
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 09:53:15AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
> > 
> > On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:28:03PM -0500, JJB wrote:
> > > Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> > > to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management
> > > off, boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to
> > > auto, OS type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel
> > > sysinstall to set bios.
> > 
> > Or, alternatively, we could just put a URL to the documentation...
> 
> That works if it can read locally, can sysinstall handle html?  If it
> must go out to the net, can it do that?Probably not at that stage.
> Many of us can not afford to have an extra machine around to read
> online documentation while doing an install.  The install is on the
> only machine we have.

I was making the point that few people read the documentation /before/
they pop the CD in the drive.

  If a lot of people (I'm not saying this is you, at all) bothered to do
this it really would save them a lot of hassle.  As for PnP, IRQ
assignments, etc. -- these would /all/ be sorted /before/ the disc was
booted from.

  Your idea is quite nice though -- the Handbook could easily be
converted to plaintext and fired up on a virtual terminal.

-lewiz.

-- 
I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.  --Bob Dylan, 1964.

-| msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | url:www.lewiz.org |-


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Charles Swiger
On Mar 8, 2004, at 1:26 PM, JJB wrote:
Now just where does what you quote say anybody is endorsing
anything.  It's just an pointer to something that may meet the needs 
of the
poster.  Just like what happens hundreds of times every day in this 
list.
You've been advised of the law; if don't think the FTC has jurisdiction 
over such comments, go ask your laywer or the people from a company 
named Central Command, based in Ohio, who tried astroturfing 
comp.mail.sendmail about a product of theirs called Vexira MailArmor.

Please drop your un-professional attack and take it offline, it does
not belong here.
What are you talking about?  "Please do not astroturf the FreeBSD 
mailing lists" constitutes a polite request in response to deceptive 
behavior on your part.  It is not an attack, professional or otherwise.

--
-Chuck
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Chris
On Monday 08 March 2004 12:26 pm, JJB wrote:
> Now just where does what you quote say anybody is endorsing
> anything.
> It's just an pointer to something that may meet the needs of the
> poster.
> Just like what happens hundreds of times every day in this list.
>
> Please drop your un-professional attack and take it offline, it does
> not belong here.


What I find amusing about this, is there is a Copywrite on this?!?! 
I have been under the impression (as I checked into this a number of years 
back) You can't Copywrite public domain material.

I also don't see any credits listed pertaining to the name FreeBSD, it's 
handbook or anything relating to BSD, it's images, and most importantly - 
posting the written permission to use Beastie (and I might add, I think it 
must be done in a not-for-profit mannor) from Kirk McKusick 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Just my .02 

-- 
Best regards,
Chris
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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread JJB
Now just where does what you quote say anybody is endorsing
anything.
It's just an pointer to something that may meet the needs of the
poster.
Just like what happens hundreds of times every day in this list.

Please drop your un-professional attack and take it offline, it does
not belong here.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles
Swiger
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 1:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 'Free BSD Questions list'
Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly

On Mar 8, 2004, at 10:17 AM, JJB wrote:
> My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
> search engines yet.
> www.a1poweruser.com
> Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
> step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.

Please do not astroturf the FreeBSD mailing lists.

By endorsing your own commercial site as if you had no connection
with
it, you are violating 15 U.S.C. 52, see
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/endorse:

"§255.5 Disclosure of material connections.

When there exists a connection between the endorser and the seller
of
the advertised product which might materially affect the weight or
credibility of the endorsement (i.e.,  the connection is not
reasonably
expected by the audience) such connection must be fully disclosed. [
... ]"

--
-Chuck

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Charles Swiger
On Mar 8, 2004, at 10:17 AM, JJB wrote:
My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
search engines yet.
www.a1poweruser.com
Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.
Please do not astroturf the FreeBSD mailing lists.

By endorsing your own commercial site as if you had no connection with 
it, you are violating 15 U.S.C. 52, see 
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/endorse:

"§255.5 Disclosure of material connections.

When there exists a connection between the endorser and the seller of 
the advertised product which might materially affect the weight or 
credibility of the endorsement (i.e.,  the connection is not reasonably 
expected by the audience) such connection must be fully disclosed. [ 
... ]"

--
-Chuck
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Peter Risdon
Shaun T. Erickson wrote:

JJB wrote:

WD
My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
search engines yet.
www.a1poweruser.com
Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.


1) Surreptitiously plugging your own site, is crass, at best.
2) Not telling him you charge for everything there, is devious.
Yet another 2c' worth...

If anyone writes any documentation for FreeBSD, an operating system they 
got for free and learned about for free, partly through reading free 
documentation submitted by others, I'd personally admire their efforts 
more if it was submitted to the handbook. Luckily for us all, some 
people have taken this view already.

The reason FreeBSD does not have graphical tools and wizards for the 
installation (or anything else, really) is that nobody who could has 
felt inclined to write the code for them. That's for some pretty obvious 
reasons. For example, no functional advantage would be gained from 
hundreds of hours of work. A bigger user base comprising more unskilled 
users would not work, even with smart graphical tools, without some kind 
of support infrastructure. Where's that going to come from? A lot of 
people are sick of wrestling with systems that have gui tools that 
either don't work properly or don't work at all (though this has 
improved in recent years), and don't let you beneath them so you can fix 
the problem directly.

But there's nothing stopping anyone using the existing code and writing 
some snazzy tools, then selling it as a commercial distribution. It's 
almost worth typing that again for emphasis. A commercial distro would 
be the channel through which support infrastructures could be developed.

The various Linux distros illustrate this. Red Hat, Mandrake and others 
charge money and provide graphical installs. Debian, probably the Linux 
distro closest to FreeBSD in orientation, does neither.

Hardware compatibility aside, it's arguable that the answer to this is 
that if you want a graphical, simple to use version of FreeBSD, then buy 
Apple OS X.

PWR.

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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread JJB
There's no need to be so down right rude.
I could say the same thing about you.

So keep your un-professional comments to your self.
There is no place on an open list for such behavior.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shaun T.
Erickson
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 11:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: W. D.; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly

JJB wrote:

> WD
> My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
> search engines yet.
> www.a1poweruser.com
> Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
> step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.

1) Surreptitiously plugging your own site, is crass, at best.
2) Not telling him you charge for everything there, is devious.

Perhaps you should also tell him that when you respond to posts for
help, on this list, that you frequently ignore the person's
questions
and instead rant on about the evils of whatever it is they are
trying to
do/use. Perhaps you should tell him that, at least in the area of
networking, you haven't got a clue about what you are talking about
(I
specifically refer you to the completely inaccurate information you
gave
me regarding, for instance, the generation of fragments.)

Based on the many posts of yours that I've seen, on this list and
another, I've concluded that you  do know some things and have some
usefull information to impart, but that your ranting and
mis-information
obscure them to such a degree that you're comments are not worth
paying
much attention too.

-ste

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Jerry McAllister
> 
> Need more info about what you mean by write it up and submit it.
> 
> Who or where do I submit it?
> 
> By  write it up you mean, write the short text  for each sysinstall
> option.

Since FreeBSD is completely a volunteer project, everyone can contribute.
Make the changes necessary and submit them as updates.
There is information on the FreeBSD web page about contributing 
to the project.  Check out:

 http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/index.html

Don't feel limited by the what is needed list.

But, be prepared to find people who disagre, often with good cause,
with suggested changes.

> How about reorganizing the sysinstall process. Like moving all the
> non critical install options from the main process stream to the
> post install category?
> 
> I looked in the /stand directory and it contains binaries. Where is
> the source for the sysinstall process,  maybe I can just change it
> at it's source?

I haven't looked specifically for /stand/sysinstall , but pretty much 
everything is somewhere under /usr/src - of course, you will have had 
to opt to install source for it to be there.  NOTE, It is not quite as 
simple as one program.  The installation program uses major chunks of 
the OS.  But, the messages it uses mostly come from just a few places.

jerry


> McAllister
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:11 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Donald Turnbull; Bob Johnson; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly
> 
> >
> > Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
> > be improved?
> >
> > Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> > to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management
> off,
> > boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto,
> OS
> > type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel
> sysinstall
> > to set bios.
> 
> This is a good idea.   Go ahead and submit an update for it.
> 
> > That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
> > using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that
> point
> > on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
> > disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
> > source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set
> root
> > password and timezone.
> 
> 
> Ehhh.Maybe as only one last option.
> 
> > Then for the original way, for each option question, give info
> about
> > what this option enables and why one would enable it.
> 
> I think all documentation should include more 'why' and 'why not'
> discussion.So, sure.   Go ahead and write it all up and submit
> the update.Try to be systematic in your writing style though
> and make sure it does not reflect personal prejudices about
> particular
> software and styles of system use, etc.  The below paragraph is a
> start, but is a little ragged and would need some work before
> including
> it in an update submission, for example.
> 
> jerry
> 
> > Example
> >
> > enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File
> server)
> > An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
> > have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
> > share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan.
> Answering
> > yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc
> on
> > the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the
> NFS
> > servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan.
> Can
> > be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you
> know
> > for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
> > future.
> >
> > This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
> > question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
> > with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
> > front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
> > handbook.
> >
> > That is what I see is missing from the sysinstall process and why
> it
> > is so user unfriendly to all but experienced FBSD users.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob
> Johnson
> > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:22 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: Donald Turnbull
> > Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly
> >
> > On Sunday 07 March 2004 

RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread JJB
Thanks Mark Frank for pointing that out.

Yes I have just put my web site online to sell my
FreeBSD Stable 4.9 Release Install guide.

An Up to date, Step by Step, How-To, Instructional Guide
to Installing FreeBSD from scratch, Specifically written with
background information covering the why and how the different
components are used together to create an home or small enterprise
network for the new-be and inexperienced FreeBSD computer hobbyist.
Not an General reference type of document, but an true learning aid
containing details unique to the stable version
of FreeBSD your installing.

After 30 months of answering the same questions over and over again
on this questions list, It became apparent that some thing must be
wrong
with the current documentation that so many people are having
problems with it.

No matter how many times I read posts from stanch supports of the
sysinstall process and the current documentation, their posts can
not
dispute the statistical facts so apparent in this questions list.
Every thing is reference material for the experienced user and not
written to the knowledge level appropriate to the first time
installer.

So I addressed that problem. It may not be appropriate for you, but
there are many who it is appropriate for.

Those who are interested can check it out at

www.a1poweruser.com





-Original Message-
From: Mark Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:45 AM
To: JJB; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly

* On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:17:00AM -0500 JJB wrote:
> WD
> My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
> search engines yet.
> www.a1poweruser.com
> Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
> step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.

Hey JJB, fbsd_user, Barbish or whoever you are this week,

You had to use a web spider to find your OWN (pay for use & written
using MS FrontPage) web site?

$ whois a1poweruser.com

[snip]

Technical Contact:
   BARBISH
   JOSEPH BARBISH ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   +1.14407294115
   Fax: +1.NONE
   8732 CAMELOT DRIVECHESTERLAND, OH 44026
   US



--
Mark Frank
Director of Technical Services - eDoxs Corp.
Please send all service requests/issues to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Shaun T. Erickson
JJB wrote:

WD
My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
search engines yet.
www.a1poweruser.com
Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.
1) Surreptitiously plugging your own site, is crass, at best.
2) Not telling him you charge for everything there, is devious.
Perhaps you should also tell him that when you respond to posts for 
help, on this list, that you frequently ignore the person's questions 
and instead rant on about the evils of whatever it is they are trying to 
do/use. Perhaps you should tell him that, at least in the area of 
networking, you haven't got a clue about what you are talking about (I 
specifically refer you to the completely inaccurate information you gave 
me regarding, for instance, the generation of fragments.)

Based on the many posts of yours that I've seen, on this list and 
another, I've concluded that you  do know some things and have some 
usefull information to impart, but that your ranting and mis-information 
obscure them to such a degree that you're comments are not worth paying 
much attention too.

	-ste

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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread JJB
Need more info about what you mean by write it up and submit it.

Who or where do I submit it?

By  write it up you mean, write the short text  for each sysinstall
option.

How about reorganizing the sysinstall process. Like moving all the
non critical install options from the main process stream to the
post install category?

I looked in the /stand directory and it contains binaries. Where is
the source for the sysinstall process,  maybe I can just change it
at it's source?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jerry
McAllister
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Donald Turnbull; Bob Johnson; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly

>
> Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
> be improved?
>
> Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management
off,
> boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto,
OS
> type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel
sysinstall
> to set bios.

This is a good idea.   Go ahead and submit an update for it.

> That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
> using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that
point
> on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
> disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
> source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set
root
> password and timezone.


Ehhh.Maybe as only one last option.

> Then for the original way, for each option question, give info
about
> what this option enables and why one would enable it.

I think all documentation should include more 'why' and 'why not'
discussion.So, sure.   Go ahead and write it all up and submit
the update.Try to be systematic in your writing style though
and make sure it does not reflect personal prejudices about
particular
software and styles of system use, etc.  The below paragraph is a
start, but is a little ragged and would need some work before
including
it in an update submission, for example.

jerry

> Example
>
> enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File
server)
> An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
> have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
> share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan.
Answering
> yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc
on
> the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the
NFS
> servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan.
Can
> be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you
know
> for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
> future.
>
> This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
> question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
> with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
> front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
> handbook.
>
> That is what I see is missing from the sysinstall process and why
it
> is so user unfriendly to all but experienced FBSD users.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob
Johnson
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Donald Turnbull
> Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly
>
> On Sunday 07 March 2004 02:49 pm, Donald Turnbull  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation
more
> > user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for
> example
> > like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for
> technology
> > is to make people lives easier right?
> >
>
> It seems pretty friendly to me.  It really helps to read the
> directions
> first, though.
>
> By "user friendly" do you mean "pretty", or do you have a specific
> complaint about some aspect that needs to be improved?  Which
> SPECIFIC
> part of the install should be changed, and how should it be
changed?
>
> - Bob
>
> ___
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> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Mark Frank
* On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:17:00AM -0500 JJB wrote:
> WD
> My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
> search engines yet.
> www.a1poweruser.com
> Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
> step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.

Hey JJB, fbsd_user, Barbish or whoever you are this week,

You had to use a web spider to find your OWN (pay for use & written
using MS FrontPage) web site?

$ whois a1poweruser.com 

[snip]

Technical Contact:
   BARBISH
   JOSEPH BARBISH ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   +1.14407294115
   Fax: +1.NONE
   8732 CAMELOT DRIVECHESTERLAND, OH 44026
   US



-- 
Mark Frank
Director of Technical Services - eDoxs Corp.
Please send all service requests/issues to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread JJB
WD
My web spider robot found this web site which is not on any of the
search engines yet.
www.a1poweruser.com
Looks like it offers what you want in the way of user-friendly
step-by-step instructions to installing FBSD.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of W. D.
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 11:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Installation - More user friendly

At 22:28 3/7/2004, JJB, wrote:
>Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
>be improved?
>
>Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
>to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management
off,
>boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
>type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
>to set bios.
>
>That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
>using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that point
>on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
>disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
>source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set root
>password and timezone.
>
>Then for the original way, for each option question, give info
about
>what this option enables and why one would enable it.
>Example
>
>enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File server)
>An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
>have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
>share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan.
Answering
>yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc on
>the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the
NFS
>servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan.
Can
>be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you know
>for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
>future.
>
>This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
>question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
>with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
>front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
>handbook.
>
>That is what I see is missing from the sysinstall process and why
it
>is so user unfriendly to all but experienced FBSD users.

Man!  This would be great!  I am trying to convert from the evil
Windows world, and online comments like this would be great.

If we really want to make FreeBSD more popular, we should make it
easy for people to change from Windows and/or Linux, right?

Start Here to Find It Fast!(tm) ->
http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Jerry McAllister
> 
> Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
> be improved?
> 
> Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management off,
> boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
> type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
> to set bios.

This is a good idea.   Go ahead and submit an update for it.

> That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
> using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that point
> on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
> disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
> source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set root
> password and timezone.


Ehhh.Maybe as only one last option.

> Then for the original way, for each option question, give info about
> what this option enables and why one would enable it.

I think all documentation should include more 'why' and 'why not' 
discussion.So, sure.   Go ahead and write it all up and submit
the update.Try to be systematic in your writing style though 
and make sure it does not reflect personal prejudices about particular
software and styles of system use, etc.  The below paragraph is a
start, but is a little ragged and would need some work before including
it in an update submission, for example.

jerry

> Example
> 
> enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File server)
> An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
> have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
> share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan. Answering
> yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc on
> the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the NFS
> servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan. Can
> be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you know
> for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
> future.
> 
> This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
> question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
> with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
> front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
> handbook.
> 
> That is what I see is missing from the sysinstall process and why it
> is so user unfriendly to all but experienced FBSD users.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob Johnson
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Donald Turnbull
> Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly
> 
> On Sunday 07 March 2004 02:49 pm, Donald Turnbull  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more
> > user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for
> example
> > like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for
> technology
> > is to make people lives easier right?
> >
> 
> It seems pretty friendly to me.  It really helps to read the
> directions
> first, though.
> 
> By "user friendly" do you mean "pretty", or do you have a specific
> complaint about some aspect that needs to be improved?  Which
> SPECIFIC
> part of the install should be changed, and how should it be changed?
> 
> - Bob
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> 
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Jerry McAllister
> 
> On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:28:03PM -0500, JJB wrote:
> > Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> > to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management off,
> > boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
> > type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
> > to set bios.
> 
> Or, alternatively, we could just put a URL to the documentation...

That works if it can read locally, can sysinstall handle html?
If it must go out to the net, can it do that?Probably not at
that stage.   Many of us can not afford to have an extra machine around 
to read online documentation while doing an install.  The install is
on the only machine we have.   Of course, I know some of you are flush
with extra HW just setting around just waiting to do some browsing, but
I for one, find food and even housing to be important expenses that
need to be covered.

jerry

> 
> -lewiz.
> 
> --=20
> I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.  --Bob Dylan, 1964.
> 
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[Fwd: Re: Installation - More user friendly]

2004-03-08 Thread gaf
Hello everybody.
IÂve been reading all comments onthis subject and just wanted to add my 
opinion. A couple of months ago i was only using windows. Only for 
downloading stuff and listen to music. My windows skills extended only 
to install windows and applications, I never messed with regedit or 
whatever itÂs called. So I have a very limited os experience/skills. 
However I got sick of microsoft and wanted to try something else and I 
stumbled on FreeBSD. Without much reading of the handbook I found it 
quite simple to install. Even configuring X was no problem. My biggest 
problem was that I didnÂt know my hardware, monitor specs and so on. I 
did the installation a couple of times to practice and I haveÂnt had any 
big problems at all with sysinstall. After that I tried to install 
Debian Linux and found it more difficult.
It was after installing FreeBSD my problems started, to configure 
things. Now I need to spend a lot of time, that I donÂt have (according 
to my girlfriend), reading  the handbook (which I sometimes find 
confusing) and searching other sites for information. Also choosing apps 
is complicated, which to choose?!.
So my conclusion is that installation is no problem, the handbook told 
me everything I needed to know. If somebody wants an OS and at the 
sametime learn it thoroghly FreeBSD is perfect but it will take some 
reading. I want to learn. If I wanted to be up and going quickly and 
only klicking my way through, I  would stick to XP. I have also tried 
Mandrake, it is easy to install but one must still read and learn if you 
only know windows. So I go for FreeBSD to learn thoroughly (not popular 
with my girlfriend).
I hope I havenÂt insulted anyone or anything (except micro.).
Kind regards
Nicolas
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Jud
On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:06:38 -0600, Vulpes Velox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:28:03 -0500
"JJB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
handbook.
...which is why I always tell friends who ask about installing FreeBSD to  
print the relevant Handbook sections (and read them, and ask questions  
about what they've read) in advance so the information will be sitting  
there in front of them.

Jud
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-08 Thread Lewis Thompson
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:28:03PM -0500, JJB wrote:
> Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management off,
> boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
> type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
> to set bios.

Or, alternatively, we could just put a URL to the documentation...

-lewiz.

-- 
I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.  --Bob Dylan, 1964.

-| msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | url:www.lewiz.org |-


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Vulpes Velox
On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:28:03 -0500
"JJB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
> be improved?
> 
> Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
> to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management off,
> boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
> type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
> to set bios.

5.2.1 all ready askes about ACPI... not sure about previous ones...
Don't see what about the current system prevents them from rebooting
and checking the bios...
 
> That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
> using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that point
> on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
> disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
> source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set root
> password and timezone.
> 
> Then for the original way, for each option question, give info about
> what this option enables and why one would enable it.
> Example
> 
> enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File server)
> An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
> have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
> share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan. Answering
> yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc on
> the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the NFS
> servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan. Can
> be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you know
> for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
> future.

This could get annoying... probally be easier just to have a button
that could be hit to bring up help...
 
> This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
> question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
> with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
> front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
> handbook.

See above... regardless, reading it should be done... and new users
should all ways be pointed towards it and/or some unix tutorials...
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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread W. D.
At 22:28 3/7/2004, JJB, wrote:
>Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
>be improved?
>
>Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
>to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management off,
>boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
>type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
>to set bios.
>
>That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
>using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that point
>on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
>disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
>source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set root
>password and timezone.
>
>Then for the original way, for each option question, give info about
>what this option enables and why one would enable it.
>Example
>
>enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File server)
>An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
>have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
>share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan. Answering
>yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc on
>the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the NFS
>servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan. Can
>be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you know
>for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
>future.
>
>This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
>question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
>with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
>front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
>handbook.
>
>That is what I see is missing from the sysinstall process and why it
>is so user unfriendly to all but experienced FBSD users.

Man!  This would be great!  I am trying to convert from the evil
Windows world, and online comments like this would be great.

If we really want to make FreeBSD more popular, we should make it
easy for people to change from Windows and/or Linux, right?

Start Here to Find It Fast!™ -> http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/

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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread JJB
Well I do have  specific comments about some aspects that needs to
be improved?

Right at the beginning of sysinstall should be warning  about what
to set PC bios options to, like plugNplay off, power management off,
boot time virus check disabled, PCI irq assignments set to auto, OS
type set to non-windows, ect. Give then option to cancel sysinstall
to set bios.

That should be followed with option  for standard basic install
using whole hard drive from cdrom, and no questions from that point
on. Behinds the scenes, fdisk deletes all hard drive partitions,
disklable uses auto config, skip config is taken, distro of kernel
source, no x-server, and no to all other questions, except set root
password and timezone.

Then for the original way, for each option question, give info about
what this option enables and why one would enable it.
Example

enable NFS server (yes / NO)   NFS stands for (Network File server)
An advanced function where by this system you are installing will
have an (Local Area Network) behind it and you want this system to
share It's disk space with the other FBSD PC's on the lan. Answering
yes will start the NFS server on this system and all the FBSD pc on
the Lan must have the NFS client running to access and share the NFS
servers disk space. Will not work with MS/windows PC on the Lan. Can
be enabled later by rc.conf statements. Only answer yes if you know
for certain you are going to use this function in the immediate
future.

This kind of pointed detailed information embedded into each
question installer is asked to respond to, provides the installer
with  the info necessary to make an informed chose right there in
front of them where it belongs and not off in some un-accessible
handbook.

That is what I see is missing from the sysinstall process and why it
is so user unfriendly to all but experienced FBSD users.







-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob Johnson
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Donald Turnbull
Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly

On Sunday 07 March 2004 02:49 pm, Donald Turnbull > wrote:
> Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more
> user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for
example
> like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for
technology
> is to make people lives easier right?
>

It seems pretty friendly to me.  It really helps to read the
directions
first, though.

By "user friendly" do you mean "pretty", or do you have a specific
complaint about some aspect that needs to be improved?  Which
SPECIFIC
part of the install should be changed, and how should it be changed?

- Bob

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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Bob Johnson
On Sunday 07 March 2004 02:49 pm, Donald Turnbull > wrote:
> Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more
> user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example
> like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for technology
> is to make people lives easier right?
>

It seems pretty friendly to me.  It really helps to read the directions 
first, though.

By "user friendly" do you mean "pretty", or do you have a specific 
complaint about some aspect that needs to be improved?  Which SPECIFIC 
part of the install should be changed, and how should it be changed?

- Bob

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RE: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Remko Lodder
The you know how it works stuff has a very good resource online
www.freebsd.org/handbook
It teaches you from the basics through rather advanced stuff.

Like every OS you need to learn it, FreeBSD is robust and userfriendly
but not with the installation as you want it.. It requires you to
educate yourself a little bit.. {dont feel offended, don't mean it like
that}

cheers :)

--

Kind regards,

Remko Lodder
Elvandar.org/DSINet.org
www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the
hackerscene

mrtg.grunn.org Dutch mirror of MRTG

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jorn Argelo
Verzonden: zondag 7 maart 2004 22:02
Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Onderwerp: Re: Installation - More user friendly



Well, basicly, most people I know don't like the graphical installations
like Red Hat and Mandrake. When I worked with Mandrake some time ago I
never chosed the graphical installation either ...

And as far as I know, FreeBSD isn't aiming as much to user
friendly-enviroments as Mandrake is. FreeBSD is an operating system you
need to take your time for, and you need to read the proper
documentation. FreeBSD is user friendly enough when you know how it
works (take the ports-tree for example), but it requires that the user
is willing to invest time in the Operating System.

Cheers,

Jorn.
On 3/7/2004, "Donald Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user
friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat
or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for technology is to make people
lives easier right?
>
>
>
>-
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster.
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Jorn Argelo

Well, basicly, most people I know don't like the graphical installations
like Red Hat and Mandrake. When I worked with Mandrake some time ago I
never chosed the graphical installation either ...

And as far as I know, FreeBSD isn't aiming as much to user
friendly-enviroments as Mandrake is. FreeBSD is an operating system you
need to take your time for, and you need to read the proper
documentation. FreeBSD is user friendly enough when you know how it
works (take the ports-tree for example), but it requires that the user
is willing to invest time in the Operating System.

Cheers,

Jorn.
On 3/7/2004, "Donald Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for 
>the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux 
>installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right?
>
>
>
>-
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster.
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Re: Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Matthew Seaman
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:49:14AM -0800, Donald Turnbull wrote:
> 
> Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for 
> the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux 
> installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right?

Oooh.  That's a can of worms you're opening there.  Careful lest it
blows up in your face.

Plans exist aplenty.  Talk is cheap.  See, for instance the libh
project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- which
was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to produce any
results for about the last two years.  What is missing are concrete
pieces of code: applications that work.  If you think you can do
better than what we have presently, you are very welcome to submit
samples of works in progress.

On the other hand, your contention that FreeBSD installation is
user-unfriendly particularly for the nieve user, is not entirely born
out in practice.  Most people take a few minutes to get used to the
way it works, and then find that they can navigate around the menus
and get things done very effectively.

You'll also have a great deal of difficulty persuading experienced
users that they need a glitzy X based installer which won't work over
a serial line connection, and that doesn't permit the same flexibility
as the current sysinstall(8).  Style palls very quickly unless it is
backed up by substance, but substance makes up for any amount of lack
of style.

Anyway, this is a topic more suitable for
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to set appropriately.

Cheers,

Matthew

-- 
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   26 The Paddocks
  Savill Way
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow
Tel: +44 1628 476614  Bucks., SL7 1TH UK


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Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Donald Turnbull

Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for 
the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux 
installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right?



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Installation - More user friendly

2004-03-07 Thread Donald Turnbull

Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for 
the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux 
installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right?



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