Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Tom. Well i will say after being away with my parents for a couple of days and not able to get online (bt anywhere my foot!), I find it very encouraging to find this at virtually the top of the mighty pile of mails I have to read. I for one am glad something so ridiculous as an arguement won't have such major long lasting effects on the community, it's members or games being develped in the future. i Do very much hope that we all can show a litle respect and understanding here and be willing not to let a couple of moments of irrationality and some angry words have a long lasting negative effect, frankly i would hope we are all a bit more grown up than that. For myself I'm glad Tom will be sticking around, and look forward to playing Mota at whatever time Tom is ready to release it. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
I also appreciate your work Thomas. And just to let you know, I'm not just saying that. When a good friend of mine told me about final conflict, alpha 3.5 I believe it was then, I spent around 3 hours looking for your site at the time... talk about fanatical! Lol. But I'm so glad to see you back on the list! Lets hope such dramas don't occur anywhere else on the list. Here's hope for the future, Ben. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
I agree entirly. the first game I ever played that was made for the blind, was stfc. Glad your back. - Original Message - From: "Jess Varnell" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Welcome back Thomas. Just so you know, there are people here who appreciate your work and don't bug you about when games are going to be released. I know it takes work to make those games, and you're a hell of a developer. smiles, Jess - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Welcome back Thomas. Just so you know, there are people here who appreciate your work and don't bug you about when games are going to be released. I know it takes work to make those games, and you're a hell of a developer. smiles, Jess - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now. I have been angry, upset, moody, and very stressed out over a number of personal and professional issues. Normally, most people who know me know that I am usually a very rational down to earth kind of person. However, anyone no matter who they are can be pushed beyond their emotional fortitude an
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Glad to see you back Thomas. - Original Message - From: "Lisa Hayes" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Welcome back Thomas welcome back and it took guts to write this and I hope it is taken in the spirit it was written. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 10:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now. I have been angry, upset, moody, and very stressed out over a number of personal and professional issues. Normally, most people who know me know that
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Let me begin by saying I have no dog in this fight. MOTA is not a game I'm interested in at all, but the fact that I've spent a fair amount of time commenting favorably on Jeremy's games should not be construed as evidence of anything other than that I like his ideas, and he and I have had fruitful dialogue from consumer to developer. I feel I've been able to contribute to the success of his games, if only by a few suggested tweaks here and there that may have made play easier for some. But I have no dog in this fight. What I have is a lot of experience in community building. I am a part of several distinct and often stormy communities, and I've learned a thing or two about traumatic events, which the discussions leading to Thomas' departure and return to this list qualifies as. So, I'm going to speak from a deal of experience, as a former programmer, as a man with a wife and family whom I adore more than anything else in this world, as a game consumer, and as someone who lives out in the real world of professionalism, and as someone who has been on email lists since their beginnings. The claim has been made by several people that the medium, i.e. email makes misunderstandings more prevalent as we miss tone and other clues to context. This is true to a point, but it is all too often used as a crutch, an excuse or a mitigating circumstance for appalling behavior. Remember, as blind folk, we are supposed to be really good at pulling meaning out of incomplete information; I make my living doing this, so do many of you, at least indirectly. The sighted world doesn't give a toss that its visual information and even body language cues aren't available to us, you learn to adapt, or you become a socially damaged person who fails at interaction. To put all the onus on the reader of an email is a misdirection of responsibility. That holds true for everyone here, and I'm not aiming that comment only at Thomas, though he may rightly take himself as an exemplar of this phenomenon. Let me go out of my way to live up to my own standard here by saying that I do not mean to say that Thomas is a social failure; I don't know him in personal life, and all my interactions with him have been cordial, even on the subject of Python, which sparked a recent iteration of the programming debate. Now, the moment I saw the thread comparing Jeremy's programming speed to others, (which I stopped reading quickly) I knew something awful was going to happen. It truly isn't fair comparing Thomas' and Jeremy's projects, love Jeremy's programs though I do. It might be that others could learn by Jeremy's example to create a more rapid time line for development, but that's not relevant or constructive in this community. I don't remember exactly how things got started, and I frankly ignored most of the kerfuffle, being too busy trying to survive to worry about the programming religious wars. I may have missed some of the nuances. What I have not missed is some extremely unprofessional behavior on the part of a list moderator, someone who voluntarily took on the health of this community as one of his goals. Forgive my seeming coldness, but Thomas' family problems have no bearing on his behavior on list, any more than would my own stresses about where my August rent is coming from would be an acceptable excuse for me to behave in an unseemly fashion. To other members of this community, there is a difference between genuine forgiveness and a simple papering over of differences in the interests of conflict avoidance. For one thing, forgiveness does not equal forgetfulness. I believe Thomas is genuinely contrite, but the community must honor the feelings of those he has offended as much as his contrition in order for genuine, community-wide healing to proceed. Telling someone to be quiet because Thomas has apologized is (forgive the pun) short-sighted and won't address the opportunity this community has to consciously choose how to heal itself from the breach. It also tells people that, in a community of equals, some people are more equal than others. That is not a state of affairs that can be productive. I urge the following steps be taken. Thomas should immediately resign from his position as moderator. Thomas should not be banned or sanctioned in any other way at this point, allow him to move forward with his life, with the production of MOTA and Raceway, and any other projects catch his interest. Let us proceed as though he had asked us for our patience, citing his family problems as a reason, something no compassionate person could fail to give him. Any future moderators of this group must be ready to step on any discussions of programming practices that depart from purely technical matters. Finally, and most importantly, this community has to make a conscious decision. Are we a bunch of consumers in a forum with a few developers, or are we a single community with the goals of mutual support with the idea of creat
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Thomas, I am glad to see you are back. The way I see it, that kind of thing can happen to anyone, and I think that we will most likely find it in our hearts to accept your apology. I am just glad that something like an argument over programming languages has not caused as much grief as it quite literally almost did. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Damien C. Pendleton Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 10:24 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hi Thomas, As I said to the list at large yesterday when all this blew up, I can see why you became angry and frustrated. I guessed it was something that was happening over time with pressure and harassment from people from all areas. However, some of the things you said in your message was totally uncalled for and intolerable. I have gotten very angry in the past, but I have tried to keep that anger to myself. Though I can see why you might have wanted to write a message like that (sometimes I am guilty of acting without thinking, though not to such a public extent), I felt totally shocked, especially from a co-moderator's point of view, at some of your choicest phrases in that message. I am well aware of how reasonable you generally are, and as I said to the list, I thought you might come back after calming down. I especially admire you for having the strength and courage to apologise to the list publicly, and taking this into consideration and your past behaviour on list I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I will be sending you a personal email shortly regarding the moderator side of things. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 1:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I'd like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two h
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
I would like, very much, for us to simply leave this problem in the past. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Jeremy, You wrote: The events that unfolded recently, were a direct result of you jumping into a Castaways thread, to push more of that Same! views you had been asked, and told, were offending people. My reply: No, that's not exactly how I see the situation. As I recall Dark asked a very specific question which was how and why you could produce games so fast. I responded that it was because you were using Visual Basic and explained Visual Basic as well as Microsoft's newer .Net languages were designed for rapid development and deployment as there isn't as much work involved in doing this or that. Unfortunately, for me I made the huge mistake of using the word lazy in the message and the situation got out of hand from there. However, my soul intent was to explain how a programmer can cut corners, speed up development, etc and a few days later your opinion of that conversation was that I was trying to push my views on others. All I did was answer Dark's question. Nothing more nothing less That's how I see it.. However, I have not forgotten your response in that same thread. You made a comment to the effect perhaps I was seeking attention etc. As I said I was merely answering a question, or thought I was, but you chose to treat it as attention seeking rather than someone replying to a question that was asked. Attention seeking was not on my mind, and just goes to show how little you really know me, on a personal level, and have drawn some drastically wrong conclusions here. Let's face it you and I have gotten off on the wrong foot, and maybe you and I should start over and just bury this discussion in the past where it belongs. Certainly arguing about this forever doesn't do any good. You wrote: For you, well I believe you need to simply stop giving people programming advice, unless they specifically ask for it. I also don't think this means someone asking 1 question, should lead to a 10 post long campaign about why you should, or shouldn't, do something. My reply: Yes, I already know. I've already come to that conclusion and have apologised apologized or my past behavior. I can't absolutely sware I won't do it again, as old habits die hard, but I am aware of it and am willing to try and not behave that way in the future. So can we put this in the past and move on now? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi, I for one hope it is, yesterday was a rough day. Dave On 7/21/11, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > Hi all, > I've kept my mouth shut throughout this whole ordeal because I wasn't > exactly sure what angle I wanted to look at this from. However, I > think I've formulated something that could be considered a diplomatic > opinion now. > I tend to agree with Daron in many of the points he raised in the past > couple of days. If someone is having personal problems, they need to > prioritize their lives. What is more important, getting a program out > by a certain deadline, or working on the problems you have and then > being able to come back with a clearer head, which would perhaps > strengthen not only the end result, but how the community feels about > you as a whole? Personally, I would take the latter route, and not try > to dump my problems on others when the going gets tough. Yes, it's > wrong for people to constantly harass someone because the game hasn't > come out on time or hasn't met their standards, and to those people I > say get a life, get off your computer and be patient. > As for the cursing and everything that went down yesterday, everyone > has their breaking points, that's true. But to dig yourself a hole > that you might not be able to climb out of seems pretty > counterproductive. You can come back and apologize all you want, but > the damage has already been done. In time people may forgive and > forget, and some are more willing to than others, but as Jeremy > pointed out, I don't think this is the first or last time we will see > something like this. > > On 7/21/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky wrote: >> *Aprone begins to raise his hand, looks around, then slowly lowers it >> again.* Haha, just kidding, but I understand what you're saying. >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi all, I've kept my mouth shut throughout this whole ordeal because I wasn't exactly sure what angle I wanted to look at this from. However, I think I've formulated something that could be considered a diplomatic opinion now. I tend to agree with Daron in many of the points he raised in the past couple of days. If someone is having personal problems, they need to prioritize their lives. What is more important, getting a program out by a certain deadline, or working on the problems you have and then being able to come back with a clearer head, which would perhaps strengthen not only the end result, but how the community feels about you as a whole? Personally, I would take the latter route, and not try to dump my problems on others when the going gets tough. Yes, it's wrong for people to constantly harass someone because the game hasn't come out on time or hasn't met their standards, and to those people I say get a life, get off your computer and be patient. As for the cursing and everything that went down yesterday, everyone has their breaking points, that's true. But to dig yourself a hole that you might not be able to climb out of seems pretty counterproductive. You can come back and apologize all you want, but the damage has already been done. In time people may forgive and forget, and some are more willing to than others, but as Jeremy pointed out, I don't think this is the first or last time we will see something like this. On 7/21/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky wrote: > *Aprone begins to raise his hand, looks around, then slowly lowers it > again.* Haha, just kidding, but I understand what you're saying. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
*Aprone begins to raise his hand, looks around, then slowly lowers it again.* Haha, just kidding, but I understand what you're saying. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Wow! 2 guys have a fight, all this person cares about is that MOTA isn't getting canceled. some of you are just incredible. is a programmer simply an automaton around here? - Original Message - From: "Greg Steel" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hi Tom I read about what happened yesterday and I was bumbed out yesterday because I had deleted mota 20 from my system and I'm glad to here your back. I'm still looking forward to the game because I love the sounds and I think that it is going to be a very fun game and I don't think that you should throw all of the hard work away over a programming language. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family oblig
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
I think with everything that happened, the focus got shifted from 1 problem, to another. It's a little like going to the doctor for a broken toe, but getting shot while in the waiting room. Of course the bullet wound is a more pressing matter, so everyone turns their attention to That! problem. After a few hectic hours, you sit in a hospital bed with your gunshot wound repaired and bandaged, but you still have your broken toe. Thomas' return reminds me of this. The actual issue was about Thomas pushing his programming practices onto other developers. Whether he admits it or not, he makes comments that put others programmers down, in order to raise himself up. The excuse was that he never meant to come across as condescending, but the problem was people being overly sensitive, and misunderstanding his comments. Only a fool would believe this is the true problem here. If he honestly has only good intentions in his posts, to other programmers about what methods they use, why then, would he continue to write those posts even after people tell him they don't want to hear it anymore? This kind of reoccurring pressure is the problem that started this entire thing. Lets not forget about the broken toe that brought us to the hospital to begin with! Of course as thread went on, people got irritated, and things heated up. While "defending" his actions, Thomas write all about his marriage problems. This was completely unrelated, but everyone went off on That! topic, because it seemed more pressing. His raving, curse filled attack of Che, became an entirely new problem. Now we were focusing on his vulgar language, and how he, a moderator, reacted when faced with a post he didn't like. Once again, focus shifted to something that seemed more pressing. Now that Thomas is back, and he has written his apology, we find ourselves in that hospital bed. In many people's minds, his home life situation, and his apology, have mended the wound caused by his cussing rant. People have discussed how unfair it is for people to pressure him about his game releases, so that wound is treated and healing. But we are still sitting in the hospital bed with this broken toe. Of course there are exceptions to this, but in general, the people here, who are not developers, were the ones who pushed focus off of the way developers have been treated because it is more important for them to focus on the other issues. Well the other issues have been taken care of now, and time will likely heal those wounds. We can't just ignore a problem because it doesn't specifically impact us, because the point is, it is affecting Someone! If anything good is going to come out of this situation, it has to be the fixing of the original problem, otherwise we are right back where we started! Thomas, I respect you as a developer, but you have a few things you need to work on. We all have faults, but the important thing is that we acknowledge them so that we can keep them under control. I laugh about it on the list sometimes, but the truth is, I honestly DO! have a Fault! that I can't stick to a single project for very long. When I work on things, I must finish them within a certain amount of time, or I know I'm in danger of dropping it for something new. This is a huge annoyance, but since I've learned I can't help it, I must change my behavior accordingly. I believe You! must do the same. You may not see it this way, but to many people around here, you come across as an elitist programmer, who puts himself above everyone else. When you give "advice" and "suggestions", you strongly appear to be putting others down who disagree. In the past I have seen other developers harassed by you in this way, and after stepping in on one of those conversations, I too started being badgered endlessly in the same way. Only after finally losing my temper, did you stop pushing your views on me, and as it turned out, this was only a temporary break. The events that unfolded recently, were a direct result of you jumping into a Castaways thread, to push more of that Same! views you had been asked, and told, were offending people. I personally think you Are! an elitist, based on much evidence written in your posts, but even if you Aren't! That is how you come across to other developers. I suppose in the end, how others perceive what you say, is the most important thing to consider. So, I can't stick to a project, and you offend other developers with "advice". We both have our faults, and we must both alter our behavior so that the faults don't get in the way. For me, I know that if I'm going to start on a project, I need to push myself 100% so that it can stand on its own before my problem kicks in, and I abandon it for something new. For you, well I believe you need to simply stop giving people programming advice, unless they specifically ask for it. I also don't think this means someone
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Thomas, As I said to the list at large yesterday when all this blew up, I can see why you became angry and frustrated. I guessed it was something that was happening over time with pressure and harassment from people from all areas. However, some of the things you said in your message was totally uncalled for and intolerable. I have gotten very angry in the past, but I have tried to keep that anger to myself. Though I can see why you might have wanted to write a message like that (sometimes I am guilty of acting without thinking, though not to such a public extent), I felt totally shocked, especially from a co-moderator's point of view, at some of your choicest phrases in that message. I am well aware of how reasonable you generally are, and as I said to the list, I thought you might come back after calming down. I especially admire you for having the strength and courage to apologise to the list publicly, and taking this into consideration and your past behaviour on list I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I will be sending you a personal email shortly regarding the moderator side of things. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 1:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Thomas. I'm glad that you are back. I've known you electronically for a while now. I've been around to see the loss of the stfc source code and also the whole mysteries of the ancients saga. I know that writing mota in its current form is not exactly the game you want to create, but at the time you felt you would be letting down paying customers if you made a 3d game as replacement to montizooma's return. I really wouldn't be able to do something like this for long without suffering serious burnout. This is not an excuse, but at least it explains the situation a bit more. In the end you make your own decisions and you have to sleep in the bed you make so to speak. Take it easy. Take a break if you need it. The end is in site at least where mota is concerned. Maybe people will then stop nagging about a release. I actually think so many people nagging you have slowed you down. I've been in a similar psychological block at school with mathematics. At a stage it I dreaded math so much that any time my mother called me I would think of math and ignore her. Wow what fights I had with her and my teachers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Well said. It was very brave of Thomas to come back and apologise like that. Now could we please get back to what we are supposed to be discussing? Thanks very much everyone. Amanda -- From: "Bryan Peterson" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:05 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Please Daron, don't stir things up again. That was a sincere apology and should be taken as such. Nobody's perfect after all. There's a lot more I could say but I'll refrain from cluttering up the list any further. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "darren harris" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Thomas, You said: I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I think that the use of colourful language was pretty well understood. You "were" a moderator on this list at that time. as a moderator you would in the passed pull people up for using such trivial words as hell, yet yesterday you knowingly go and break practically every single rule in the book. But then again we can look back in the passed and see you breaking rules whilst pulling people up for said very same thing so perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised. You said: In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Well Thomas sorry to hear you're having problems. Relationship difficulties are never easy. I very nearly allowed my relationship to be destroyed through my lack of willingness to accept that I suffer from depression. It was only when my wife to be hit breaking point and nearly left me that I pulled my finger out my butt and decided to do something about things instead of mood swinging in multiple directions. But we all have choices in life. Looks like you need to reassess your priorities or not only could you be losing a wife you could be losing a son as well and I think that's sad to be very honest. But having said that, your problems are no more the responsibility of this community than it is responsible for my depressive states. Sorry to sound blunt but that really is the way it is. so what if it takes you longer to develop your games and software, if that saves your marriage then isn't that worth it? you're letting other people put pressure on you when really it's you that needs to take a firm hand of your situation. You said: Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. I'm not surprised. The forth of july is a celebratory event which happens once a year and should be spent with family friends and loved ones. Also kids lets be honest they aren't going to stay kids for ever are they? My partner does things sometimes with me that I enjoy but she doesn't necessarily enjoy so much if at all. thus the saying give and take. You said: Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging,
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Thomos. It's lovely to have you back. Amanda -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 1:02 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now. I have been angry, upset, moody, and very stressed out over a number of personal and professional issues. Normally, most people who know me know that I am usually a very rational down to earth kind of person. However, anyone no matter who they are can be pushed beyond their emotional fortitude and snap given enough time and stress. Which brings us to Wednesday morning. I was already upset, not in a good mood, when I opened gmail and began reading my mail that
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Please Daron, don't stir things up again. That was a sincere apology and should be taken as such. Nobody's perfect after all. There's a lot more I could say but I'll refrain from cluttering up the list any further. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "darren harris" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Thomas, You said: I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I think that the use of colourful language was pretty well understood. You "were" a moderator on this list at that time. as a moderator you would in the passed pull people up for using such trivial words as hell, yet yesterday you knowingly go and break practically every single rule in the book. But then again we can look back in the passed and see you breaking rules whilst pulling people up for said very same thing so perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised. You said: In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Well Thomas sorry to hear you're having problems. Relationship difficulties are never easy. I very nearly allowed my relationship to be destroyed through my lack of willingness to accept that I suffer from depression. It was only when my wife to be hit breaking point and nearly left me that I pulled my finger out my butt and decided to do something about things instead of mood swinging in multiple directions. But we all have choices in life. Looks like you need to reassess your priorities or not only could you be losing a wife you could be losing a son as well and I think that's sad to be very honest. But having said that, your problems are no more the responsibility of this community than it is responsible for my depressive states. Sorry to sound blunt but that really is the way it is. so what if it takes you longer to develop your games and software, if that saves your marriage then isn't that worth it? you're letting other people put pressure on you when really it's you that needs to take a firm hand of your situation. You said: Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. I'm not surprised. The forth of july is a celebratory event which happens once a year and should be spent with family friends and loved ones. Also kids lets be honest they aren't going to stay kids for ever are they? My partner does things sometimes with me that I enjoy but she doesn't necessarily enjoy so much if at all. thus the saying give and take. You said: Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Again it boils down to priorities. Do
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hello Thomas, You said: I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I think that the use of colourful language was pretty well understood. You "were" a moderator on this list at that time. as a moderator you would in the passed pull people up for using such trivial words as hell, yet yesterday you knowingly go and break practically every single rule in the book. But then again we can look back in the passed and see you breaking rules whilst pulling people up for said very same thing so perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised. You said: In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Well Thomas sorry to hear you're having problems. Relationship difficulties are never easy. I very nearly allowed my relationship to be destroyed through my lack of willingness to accept that I suffer from depression. It was only when my wife to be hit breaking point and nearly left me that I pulled my finger out my butt and decided to do something about things instead of mood swinging in multiple directions. But we all have choices in life. Looks like you need to reassess your priorities or not only could you be losing a wife you could be losing a son as well and I think that's sad to be very honest. But having said that, your problems are no more the responsibility of this community than it is responsible for my depressive states. Sorry to sound blunt but that really is the way it is. so what if it takes you longer to develop your games and software, if that saves your marriage then isn't that worth it? you're letting other people put pressure on you when really it's you that needs to take a firm hand of your situation. You said: Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. I'm not surprised. The forth of july is a celebratory event which happens once a year and should be spent with family friends and loved ones. Also kids lets be honest they aren't going to stay kids for ever are they? My partner does things sometimes with me that I enjoy but she doesn't necessarily enjoy so much if at all. thus the saying give and take. You said: Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Again it boils down to priorities. Don't get me wrong, people hassling someone over how long something is going to take to be develop is rather stupid an I'd be the first one to agree with that point. But you can choose how to deal with it. you can either put your wife and child first and slow work down on your projects, or you can continue working on your projects at the same speed if not faster and as a result lose your family effectively. It comes down to balancing things out. What's more important to you after all said and done? that's the biggest question. You said: Which brings us to Wednesday morning. I was already u
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Tom. You know what bro? stuff hapendes! People make mistakes! As far as I am concerned all is forgiven and we can move on I must say after what was said yesterday I was shocked and disappointed. But You have clearly thought things out and you are trying to come to grips with your situation. I for one am married and I understand what it's like to have a family and responsibilities. I would hope that my fellow gamers on and off this list would extend the same toward you and that we can just move on. However, don't expect to make everyone happy and don't expect that everyone will be happy to see you back on list. I hope that I am wrong and that we can all welcome you back with open arms. Now lets just forget this hole thing and get back to gaming. BTW did you get the sounds I sent to you? Do you need me to resend them? Thanks, and have a great day. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:03 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I'd like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
I may not be married anymore and certainly have no kids, but I can still understand totally where you're coming from. You're only human like the rest of us, and every single one of us has their breaking point. You ust finally reached yours yesterday. I can't honestly say I'd have lasted as long as you did were I in your position LOL. I'd probably have snapped long before now and gotten myself banned from any lists I was on at the time (smile). I at least am glad you're back at least for now. You're definitely one of those I'd consider a friend. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Botto
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hi Tom I read about what happened yesterday and I was bumbed out yesterday because I had deleted mota 20 from my system and I'm glad to here your back. I'm still looking forward to the game because I love the sounds and I think that it is going to be a very fun game and I don't think that you should throw all of the hard work away over a programming language. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now. I have been angry, upset, moody, and very stressed out over a number of personal and professional issues. Normally, most people who know me know that I am usuall
Re: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Welcome back Thomas welcome back and it took guts to write this and I hope it is taken in the spirit it was written. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 10:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now. I have been angry, upset, moody, and very stressed out over a number of personal and professional issues. Normally, most people who know me know that I am usually a very rational down to earth kind of person. However, anyone no matter who they are can be pushed beyond their emotional fortitude and snap given enough time and stress. Which brings us to Wednesday morning. I was
[Audyssey] A Sincere Apology to the List
Hello Everyone, I’d like to take the time here to offer my sincere apologies for my extremely disgraceful behavior yesterday morning. I know there are some here who will most likely view my behavior as childish, immature, etc. it was certainly unprofessional of me to say some of the things I said, and do some of the things I did. Yet, now that I've had some time to get away from the list, get away from the situation, cool down, and get some perspective I can see both sides of this issue a little clearer. I realize that certain members of the list, other game developers, felt they were being bullied, pressured, and Che felt it was his job to stand up and defend them the only way he knew how to. I take his points, even though he was much harsher than he needed to be, and I'll attempt to be more diplomatic in the words and things I say on this list in the future. I must honestly confess that it is hard for me not to comment on a topic or give my opinion even when the person or persons involved don't want to hear it. So I need to monitor my urge to write a quick reply and make absolutely sure it says what I mean, and that the message does not contain any words that can be misinterpreted by the intended party or parties receiving it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this. E-mail is a very impersonal form of communication. To us it is just a bunch of text on the screen that gets read back to us via our screen reader of choice without any sense of the emotion, intent, or purpose behind it. It is us, the reader, who interpret it and assign emotions and intent to that message. It sometimes is interpreted correctly, and sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides. Which is what I feel happened yesterday. I certainly do not want to offer you any excuses for my actions yesterday, but I do feel I owe you an explanation of why I did what I did. What I'm about to say isn't being said to get sympathy, lay a guilt trip on anybody, or hand you a sad story, etc. I merely want to give you a few facts that lead up to my behavior yesterday in the first place. You are free to reject or accept this as you will. In my message yesterday I made reference to some problems with my marriage, and let me say these are quite true, and as you might expect it is a very stressful and painful time for me. I consider the issue very personal so I don't want to get into it at any real length, but my wife and I have been having problems for quite a long time now and the situation has tended to progress from bad to worse. We have been arguing about everything from our family finances to how much time I spend on my computer working on games when she feels I should be spending that time with her or my son. Here is an example of what I mean. On July 4th my wife wanted to go to the fireworks as a family as we do every year, but I didn't want to go because for me listening to fireworks is nothing but a bunch of loud noise. I felt those two hours or so could be better spend at home working on game code, editing sounds, and working on game documentation. It went over with her like a rock, and that started an argument that ruined the entire evening for us both. Having these kinds of personal issues is bad enough, but there are certain individuals in this community who are pushing, nagging, and putting pressure on me to release Mysteries of the Ancients and Raceway on some unrealistic time table I can't simply meet and have any kind of time for my family, work, etc. I don't know if it is their ignorance of how much time and energy it takes to complete a game of any size, they are just self-centered, or both. Either way you look at it their constant nagging, complaining, etc just makes the situation that much worse for me because I have to make a daily choice how to assign my free time which comes down to work on said games or spend it with my family. Those of you who aren't married, don't have family obligations and responcibilities, might not understand exactly what that feels like, or appreciate the situation I am in here. Bottom line, what I am trying to say is that I've not been myself for quite a while now. I have been angry, upset, moody, and very stressed out over a number of personal and professional issues. Normally, most people who know me know that I am usually a very rational down to earth kind of person. However, anyone no matter who they are can be pushed beyond their emotional fortitude and snap given enough time and stress. Which brings us to Wednesday morning. I was already upset, not in a good mood, when I opened gmail and began reading my mail that morning. It was to everyone's misfortune that Che chose that day, of all days, to write a message to the list standing up for his fellow developers, and weather he intended to or not I felt extremely insulted by him calling me a programming elitist as well as a few other things he said in his messages, and that basically was enough to push
