PMC chair nominations?

[Morgan Delagrange]

Sam said that we should obtain "nominations for chair
from people in the (potentially expanded) PMC ranks by
the 16th," followed by "[a]n election where every
member of the PMC has one vote...to be completed on
the 18th."

Whoops, we're late.

Are we obligated to choose a chair this month.  I
don't think we have enought time left for a proper
vote.

- Morgan

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Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

[Morgan Delagrange]

+1

- Morgan

--- Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The next board meeting is the 19th.  My suggestion
> is that current PMC 
> members nominate individuals that they believe
> should be on the PMC by 
> the 9th, then we hold a vote on these nominees to be
> complete on the 12th.
> 
> This is to be followed this up with nominations for
> chair from people in 
> the (potentially expanded) PMC ranks by the 16th.  
> An election where 
> every member of the PMC has one vote, will then
> commence, to be 
> completed on the 18th.
> 
> If there are concerns about not wishing one's votes
> to be known, I can 
> ask the board for an independent set of participants
> to tally the votes.
> 
> In any case, I can inform the board of the results
> (potentially jointly 
> with my intended successor) on the 19th.
> 
> How does this sound?
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Jeffrey Dever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members
> voting on releases 
> >> to the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the
> release prime for 
> >> Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on
> all issues all the 
> >> time, including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat
> unusual in commons 
> >> as it is rather a large project with a dedicated
> mailing list and a 
> >> rich family where many, such as myself, are
> primarily focused on just 
> >> one project, HttpClient.
> >
> >
> > The goal is to make all active committers PMC
> members.
> 
> 
> Then what, exactly, is the difference between a
> committer and a PMC 
> member?  
> 
> I thought the goal was to have the release primes be
> the PMC members. 
>  It is the Project Management Committee after all.

If the implication is that "release management =
project management", I don't agree.  Typically there
can only be one release manager, but it's takes lots
of people to keep a project going.  Certainly every
release manager should forward themselves as PMC
nominees, but the body of qualified candidates is much
larger.

- Morgan

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Re: Licensing again.

[Morgan Delagrange]

No there are plenty of works derived from Apache
projects.  Apache code may be freely modified or
redistributed, but as per the Apache license:

  The end-user documentation included with 
  [redistributions of Apache code], if any, 
  must include the following acknowlegement: 
  "This product includes software developed by the
  Apache Software Foundation 
  (http://www.apache.org/)."  Alternately, this 
  acknowlegement may appear in the software itself, 
  if and wherever such third-party acknowlegements 
  normally appear.

The fact that Apache code has an owner (the ASF
membership) and a copyright does not exclude it from
having an open-source license.  In fact, if the code
did not have an owner, the license would be
exceedingly difficult to defend.

- Morgan

--- Timothy Halloran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Does this mean the ASF has taken away the ability
> for others to do
> derived works (including derived works that make the
> code commercial or
> GPL -- with a simple name change)?  That would mean
> the license is no
> longer open source (by OSD anyway)?
> 
> This is a strange discussion thread.
> 
> On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 12:36, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 10/2/03 4:05 "Lawrence E. Rosen"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > >> It should be noted that Apache Software
> Foundation members
> > >> are the legal
> > >> *owners* of the software that is available
> under the Apache
> > >> Software License.  Indeed, that is one of the
> key benefits to
> > >> becoming an ASF member, as opposed to just a
> committer on one
> > >> or more projects.  It seems perfectly
> reasonable that
> > >> decisions on the license under which that
> software is
> > >> licensed should be made by the people that own
> it.
> > > 
> > > I'm curious.  What is the legal basis for this
> claim of ownership?
> > 
> > The fact that each contributor, prior access to
> our CVS repository, signs a
> > paper saying that for whatever goes in CVS, he
> assigns copyright and
> > ownership of the code to the ASF... No more no
> less than what any random
> > employee of a software company does with his
> employer...
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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Re: Logging strategy

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Ceki Gülcü <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 11:21 29.01.2003 +0100, Dani Estermann wrote:
> >Has jakarta got a strategy/guideline/regulation
> that recommends a certain 
> >logging api to be used by jakarta projects? Are
> existing and future 
> >jakarta projects allowed to choose between log4j,
> LogKit, commons-logging 
> >or even JDK1.4-Logging?
> >
> >We are currently choosing a logging api and
> implementation to be used 
> >in  our business projects. While I favor the power
> of the log4j 
> >implementation, I ask myself if it would be wise to
> use a -- maybe more 
> >future-proof -- thin bridge like commons-logging on
> top.
> 
> I believe log4j is here to stay. Its user base is
> large and
> growing. As time passes, more people will gravitate
> to it as it keeps
> improving. We have enough cool features in pipe to
> keep us busy for
> the foreseeable future. Simile, the future is bright
> and open!

I agree with Ceki, Log4j has a bright future indeed. 
If it were my project, I'd pick Log4J first, then the
Merlin logging (even if I were using JDK 1.4).  I
don't known too much about LogKit, but it's probably
fine as well.

Don't use commons-logging unless you're absolutely
sure you need it.  If you are distributing your code
to other companies, then you might have an argument
for a logging facade in order to plug into their
logging framework.  However, if your code is intended
for internal use only, using a facade is more work
with no benefit.

- Morgan

> >Daniel
> 
> --
> Ceki
> 
> 
> 
>
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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[Morgan Delagrange]

Are the current PMC members automatically re-upped? 
And it sounds like there won't have to be a massive
all-committer election like last year, which I'm sure
will be a relief to Dirk.  ;)  

Sounds like Jakarta PMC membership will become more
like Apache membership; once you're in, you can stay
in as long as you remain active.

- Morgan

--- Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Reorging the Jakarta PMC apparently has become an
> annual event.  This
> year will be no different.  I've had lengthy talks
> with the Apache
> Board, and this has caused me to revisit a number of
> assumptions.
> 
> Looking at http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/, it
> is clear that the
> ASF concept of a Project Management Committee
> permits a significantly
> larger number of PMC members per project than I, at
> least, had ever
> presumed.
> 
> Given the success that Jakarta has had to date, I
> don't want to propose
> any rapid, irreversable, or disruptive changes.  But
> the goal should be
> clear: the PMC should consist of *all* the people
> who are actively and
> consistently monitoring the code.
> 
> So for the first step, I'd like to nominate the
> following individuals
> who have contributed multiple times to the Jakarta
> newsletter and/or 
> recently served as a release manager of a Jakarta
> subproject:
> 
>[  ]  Nicola Ken Barozzi
>[  ]  Stephen Colebourne
>[  ]  Martin Cooper
>[  ]  Henri Gomez
>[  ]  John Keyes
>[  ]  Larry Isaacs
>[  ]  Otis Gospodnetic
>[  ]  Thomas Mahler
>[  ]  Remy Maucherat
>[  ]  Glenn Nielsen
>[  ]  Andrew C Oliver
>[  ]  Rob Oxspring
>[  ]  Martin Poeschl
>[  ]  Scott Sanders
>[  ]  David Sean Taylor
>[  ]  Mladen Turk
>[  ]  James Turner
>[  ]  Henri Yandell
> 
> Future steps will include introduction of a concept
> of an emeritus PMC
> member, reinstating prior PMC members who are still
> active, and more
> nominations (particularly those that chose to
> contribute to the
> newsletter, and/or act as release manager, hint,
> hint).
> 
> Longer term, the plan is to move the subprojects
> that chose to remain in
> Jakarta towards becoming a single community - in
> particular release
> votes will become a responsibility of the PMC.  That
> does not mean that
> all PMC members will vote on all releases, but that
> it will be from this
> pool of members that release votes will be cast. 
> Clearly there will
> need to be a number waves of additions like the one
> above to the PMC
> before we get to this point.
> 
> Meanwhile, my plan is to see to it that those
> subprojects that desire to
> become ASF projects will get the full cooperation
> and support of this PMC.
> 
> Now for some fine print:
> 
> * nominees may chose to decline without giving any
> reason
> 
> * only current PMC member's votes are binding
> 
> * once the vote completes, PMC membership is not
> effective until 48
> hours after a board member acknowledges receipt of
> these votes.
> 
> Let the voting begin!
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> P.S.  My vote is +1 on all.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 06:55 PM, Andrew
> C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> 
> > In this post Jon expresses his acceptance for
> other technology and how 
> > he values community and wishes to work closely
> together:
> >
>
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102029828404481&w=2
> > > I can't stand XSL...
> 
> Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?
> 

I adore XSL and don't understand why people think it's
so complicated.  To me, an XML syntax for an XML
transform makes a lot more sense than this:

---
  #match("document")

  
$context.applyTemplates()
  

#end

#match("section")
  
  Section: $attrib.name
  $context.applyTemplates("p")
#end

#match("p")
  
  $node.copy($node.children())
  
#end
---

Also, many of the transformation alternatives don't
seem to support features like xsl:include and
xsl:import.  Try dealing with a dozen twenty-five-page
DTDs, each slightly different, and you'll appreciate
the ability to create layers of styles.

I'm a stranger in a strange land.

- Morgan

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Re: Jakarta member seeking ASF membership

[Morgan Delagrange]

 for jakarta-commons-sandbox, but
> again, should be
> complimentary.  And why don't they have much
> documentation yet? 
> Because people haven't had time to write it up yet! 
> I don't think most
> things happen in 'secret', it's just that we don't
> always get around to
> documenting stuff publicly as soon as we should -
> since in an
> all-volunteer organization, it takes longer to do
> things sometimes.

Here I have to disagree.  I think a public discussion
should be a prerequisite to new project approval. 
Elements like charter points and PMC members are
_much_ more difficult to alter after a project is
approved.  Especially for projects like Commons, which
clearly tie to existing communities.  Jakarta Commons
is a very active community and our charter was created
very deliberately; I think we would have had a lot to
offer to the discussion.  And I don't think that j-c
has a monopoly here; projects like Commons are
relevant to all committers. 

> - Shane
> Disclaimers: ASF Member; xml-xalan, xml-commons
> committer; IBM
> Employee; Massachusetts, USA resident; lover of bad
> puns and cats.
> 
> =
> - Shane
> 
>  "Oohayu oyod?!"=gis. />
> 
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Re: Jakarta member seeking ASF membership

[Morgan Delagrange]

As far as I can tell, that's up to the ASF to decide
on a case-by-case basis.  So I suggest that if you
think your experince would make a valuable
contribution to the ASF, ask our PMC for sponsorship. 
The worst they can do is say no.

--- Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> If we're expected to nominate ourselves as such,
> it'd be nice to have some
> guidelines as to what we should be looking at in our
> day-to-day Apache
> goings on to know that the time has come. So we
> don't look like young
> punks :)
> 
> Hen
> 
> 
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > [from a previous thread on a previous list]
> >
> > > Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't know if I've yet achieved the status
> of a
> > > > "long-term [committer] who have earned the
> right
> > > to
> > > > set Apache-wide policies" [...]
> >
> > However, there's no time like the present to find
> out.
> >  Roy Fielding has suggested that not enough
> Jakarta
> > members seek membership in the ASF.  Until
> recently, I
> > was quite happy plugging along in my little
> Jakarta
> > world, developing software and trusting the Apache
> > world to continue onward as it has.
> >
> > However, recent events have shown me that my view
> may
> > be too narrow.  One specific example (sorry if you
> > subscribe to the reorg list, as this is repetition
> of
> > threads there): a top-level Apache project with
> the
> > same name and similar scope as a Jakarta
> subproject
> > can be proposed, discussed and approved (including
> a
> > PMC) without ever being mentioned on a list to
> which I
> > can subscribe.  This week, a mailing list was
> formed
> > to try to alleviate some of these communication
> > deficiencies, but in the words of a former U.S.
> > president, "trust, yet verify".
> >
> > So my specific goal in seeking ASF membership is
> to
> > look inside the black box.  I already know that
> > important decisions can be made that are hidden
> from
> > the view of most committers.  I'd like to know
> more
> > about the process, and hopefully help to make
> these
> > decisions more open and transparent to committers
> at
> > large; at present a very small percentage of
> Jakarta
> > members are actually ASF members.  Likewise, I
> > encourage other Jakarta committers to consider
> seeking
> > ASF membership if they are also concerned about
> > representation and the decision-making process. 
> The
> > Board seems very interested in increasing our
> numbers
> > in the ASF membership, and I think we should take
> them
> > up on this opportunity.
> >
> > Specifically, I'd like to ask a member of our PMC
> or
> > any current ASF member to sponsor my membership.,
> > Unfortunately I will probably not be able to
> attend
> > the next Foundation meeting, and so I'd also ask
> that
> > my sponsor act as my proxy, if possible.
> >
> > If I understand this process correctly, if I am
> > nominated, I fill out an application form and it's
> > discussed on the private "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> mailing
> > list until a decision spits out.  I guess I won't
> be
> > gaining any insight into the admission process at
> > first.  :)
> >
> > - Morgan
> >
> > =
> > Morgan Delagrange
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Jakarta member seeking ASF membership

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hi all,

[from a previous thread on a previous list]

> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> 
> > I don't know if I've yet achieved the status of a
> > "long-term [committer] who have earned the right
> to
> > set Apache-wide policies" [...]

However, there's no time like the present to find out.
 Roy Fielding has suggested that not enough Jakarta
members seek membership in the ASF.  Until recently, I
was quite happy plugging along in my little Jakarta
world, developing software and trusting the Apache
world to continue onward as it has.  

However, recent events have shown me that my view may
be too narrow.  One specific example (sorry if you
subscribe to the reorg list, as this is repetition of
threads there): a top-level Apache project with the
same name and similar scope as a Jakarta subproject
can be proposed, discussed and approved (including a
PMC) without ever being mentioned on a list to which I
can subscribe.  This week, a mailing list was formed
to try to alleviate some of these communication
deficiencies, but in the words of a former U.S.
president, "trust, yet verify".

So my specific goal in seeking ASF membership is to
look inside the black box.  I already know that
important decisions can be made that are hidden from
the view of most committers.  I'd like to know more
about the process, and hopefully help to make these
decisions more open and transparent to committers at
large; at present a very small percentage of Jakarta
members are actually ASF members.  Likewise, I
encourage other Jakarta committers to consider seeking
ASF membership if they are also concerned about
representation and the decision-making process.  The
Board seems very interested in increasing our numbers
in the ASF membership, and I think we should take them
up on this opportunity.

Specifically, I'd like to ask a member of our PMC or
any current ASF member to sponsor my membership.,
Unfortunately I will probably not be able to attend
the next Foundation meeting, and so I'd also ask that
my sponsor act as my proxy, if possible.

If I understand this process correctly, if I am
nominated, I fill out an application form and it's
discussed on the private "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing
list until a decision spits out.  I guess I won't be
gaining any insight into the admission process at
first.  :)

- Morgan

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Re: Criteria for commit access

[Morgan Delagrange]

> Just one question, have you ever voted -1 on a committer? (and not just to
> you, but to every committer on this list).
>
> Pier
>

Yes I'm several days behind in email.  :)  Catching up now...

I voted -0 on a couple of committers once because I didn't feel that their
qualifications were well-specified.  They were nominated for Commons, but
they had made either insubsubstantial or nonexistent (can't recall which) to
the Commons mailing lists.

It was very similar circumstances.  I was uncomfortable with the credentials
supplied, Costin, Remy and Jean-frederic clarified the proposed committers'
status in Jakarta, and I retracted my objection.  You can see part of the
thread here:

  http://www.mail-archive.com/commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org/msg03817.html

If I recall correctly, there was in my view a little unnecessary huffiness
in the discussion (like Pier, I just wanted clarification on who they were)
but I think it turned out satisfactorily in the end.

- Morgan


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Re: [Actual Action Taken] Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please see:
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/vendors.html
> 
> If this is acceptable (this is the best I could do
> on my lunch break ;-)
> )

Doesn't there need to be some legalese?  Jakarta does
not endorse those vendors; that should probably be
noted.

> -- I'll go ahead and update the site and I'll
> supply a patch for
> mail.html that asks that folks don't post commercial
> ads to the mail
> lists rather supply a patch for the vendor page to
> be applied at
> jakarta-site2 committer discretion.  

So, if a committer is competing with another company,
he can veto that company's patches?  How is this
governed, while still maintaining our integrity as a
non-for-profit volunteer organization?

> If you have minor suggestions for this, please
> supply them in the form
> of commits or patches that correct any minor errors
> or improve things. 
> I'm not interested in creating the "vendor
> superpage".
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Andy
> 
> PS I realize www.superlinksoftware.com is down at
> the moment.  Its
> undergoing upgrades.  It'll be back up at the end of
> the week.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2002-05-13 at 09:32, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > +1 from me.
> > 
> > While it's nice to see committers who are able to
> commercially work with
> > the experience they gain/use here, it would be
> very demeaning to the list
> > for every company who are using jsp/servlets/other
> to post their
> > consultant services to the general list.
> > 
> > Hen
> > 
> > On 13 May 2002, Leo Simons wrote:
> > 
> > > +1 to all of that.
> > >
> > > - Leo
> > >
> > > > Sun Micro, has a page of "here are Java
> companies"  -- lets "innovate"
> > > > it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here
> are companies and folks who
> > > > support Apache Jakarta software.  I volunteer.
> Secondly, lets Make a
> > > > rule NOT to post advertising to the mail
> lists, that is NOT what they
> > > > are there for.
> > > >
> > > > This does a few things:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Provides a good rationale to companies to
> use Apache Jakarta Software
> > > > (not a specific goal of the group but a
> personal goal of several people
> > > > here including myself as I like working with
> GOOD software)
> > > >
> > > > 2. Gives those companies a place to post thats
> relevant to Jakarta,
> > > > won't annoy people who might otherwise use
> them.
> > > >
> > > > 3. Give those companies a high visability web
> page to advertise on.
> > > >
> > > > 4. God I don't need more spam.  My spam filter
> entries will one day
> > > > reach the limit on the number of strings I can
> match on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> -- 
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software
> solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2
> Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best
> build/project
> structure
>   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on
> complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late
> for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
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> 


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http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.


> You're still missing the point ... The main detail to me is I'd like to
> use a combined collaborated project...  I'd -1 solely on that.
>  Centipede more completely fits MY needs and will make it easier for me
> to work with several projects that I need (not just tlaking about
> xsl)...  I'd -1 solely on that

Nope I'm not missing your point.  I'm just waiting for the salient points to
come out.  This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring.  You've said:

[Andy]
>  2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.

and Jon has said:

[Jon]
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...

I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he
picked up my "bike shed" argument.  I suspect you are too.  If we want to
see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table.
So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached
to the color of their shed.  However it's hard to even judge what would make
a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal.  If there are real
discrepencies, let's spell them out.

> BTW when did the Majority voting rule overrule the consenus based?   I
> regard this as a product change.

DVSL is a product change for Centipede.  XSL is a product change for Maven.
If the projects merge, different approaches will have to be reconciled by
the majority; essentially you would have a new product; there would be no
existing "product" to change.  Clearly most people don't known what, if
anything, they want to gain from this discussion.  Two compatible projects?
One merged project?  Let's work out some more detailed proposals before
chasing at shadows.

>
>
> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
> >I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
> >always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
> >would.  :)
> >
> >Let the community decide.  If 51% of the developers
> >want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
> >use.  If you don't like it, prove that your
> >alternative is better.  But dropping a whole project
> >because of a detail is needless.
> >
> >- Morgan
> >
> >--- Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
> >>>
> >>centipede on the projects I
> >>
> >>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
> >>>
> >>togheter.
> >>
> >>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
> >>>
> >>standard - regardless of how
> >>
> >>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
> >>>
> >>supports both.
> >>
> >>>Costin
> >>>
> >>You guys are so funny.
> >>
> >>Bike Sheds
> >>--
> >>
> >>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
> >>the Jakarta website. But
> >>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
> >>easy to use and took away
> >>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
> >>it all over the world.
> >>
> >>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
> >>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> >>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
> >>but no one changed the
> >>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
> >>Anakia sites on
> >>Sourceforget.net all the time.
> >>
> >>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
> >>Maven. Just like with
> >>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
> >>aren't doing the work and
> >>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
> >>shed and is thus not
> >>valid in my opinion.
> >>
> >>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
> >>learned that you can't
> >>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
> >>on it. Given our
> >>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
> >>argue for something like
> >>that. You hypocrite.
> >>
> >>Learning Technology
> >>---
> >>
> >>The argum

Re: You guys are so funny.

[Morgan Delagrange]

I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
would.  :)

Let the community decide.  If 51% of the developers
want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
use.  If you don't like it, prove that your
alternative is better.  But dropping a whole project
because of a detail is needless.

- Morgan

--- Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
> centipede on the projects I
> > have a vote on until they find a way to work
> togheter.
> > 
> > DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
> standard - regardless of how
> > you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
> supports both.
> > 
> > Costin
> 
> You guys are so funny.
> 
> Bike Sheds
> --
> 
> At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
> the Jakarta website. But
> then when I took the effort to make it simple and
> easy to use and took away
> the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
> it all over the world.
> 
> On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
> replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
> but no one changed the
> main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
> Anakia sites on
> Sourceforget.net all the time.
> 
> The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
> Maven. Just like with
> Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
> aren't doing the work and
> therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
> shed and is thus not
> valid in my opinion.
> 
> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
> learned that you can't
> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
> on it. Given our
> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
> argue for something like
> that. You hypocrite.
> 
> Learning Technology
> ---
> 
> The argument about learning minor technologies to
> make money is so silly it
> is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
> and have been
> responsible for hiring or directly approving the
> hiring of about 50-60
> people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
> but not small either.
> 
> Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
> knows minor technology
> X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
> most about was that the
> person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
> to learn something new.
> So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
> aptitude, I probably would not
> have hired you anyway.
> 
> On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
> the box because everyone
> else is doing it would make me instantly not like
> your personality. I like
> people who are free thinkers and who can think
> outside of the box. Software
> is an art form, not something that you can just
> cookie cutter produce (and
> have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
> free thinkers that have
> the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
> outside of the box shows that
> you care about the code and systems you are
> creating.
> 
> People
> --
> 
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
> more and more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
> Peter Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
> joining the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
> 
> :-)
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
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> 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))


> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
>
>http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAI
N
> >TING
> >
> >The language you use for transformation is, in the case of a
> >Maven/Centipete-type tool, largely internal to the project.  Gather some
> >developers, call a vote, and use what the majority decides.  Later on, if
> >you have an itch to switch, convert the files, put them in a staging
area,
> >and call another vote.  Both will do the job.
> >
> Right, I'm just stating that I dislike the goal of this (avoid
> collaboration, and enforce pet project use) so much that I'll -1 on any
> project I'm on that switching is brought up.

Seems like overkill to stop a project based on the stylesheet technology,
but it's your choice to make.

> So build your bike shed.
>  But if I have a say it will go unused because it doesn't suit my needs.
>  (unlike a combined collaborative effort that supports standards)

Hmm, that is sort of the point of the essay.  If it's not integral to the
success of the project, it shouldn't matter.  But as I say, your choice.

> >
> >Actually it may not even be necessary to pick one or the other
exclusively.
> >For example Latka maintains its documentation in docbook, but Dion added
a
> >transform to Anakia so it works with the site build.  Similarly you may
be
> >able to provide DVSL and XSL alternatives.
> >
> >This is not a slam on Oliver or anybody else.  This just happened to be
the
> >most recent post on this topic.
> >
> None taken.  But I prefer to go by my first name.

Ah, my profuse apologies.  I did know your name, it was just a momentary
synapse failure.  :P

- Morgan

> -Andy
>
> >
> >- Morgan
> >



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Morgan Delagrange]

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAIN
TING

The language you use for transformation is, in the case of a
Maven/Centipete-type tool, largely internal to the project.  Gather some
developers, call a vote, and use what the majority decides.  Later on, if
you have an itch to switch, convert the files, put them in a staging area,
and call another vote.  Both will do the job.

Personally I like XSLT.  I find it feature rich and I don't find it
difficult to use.  But I'll use DVSL if that's what the project requires.  I
think the quantity of developers who are literally incapable of using one or
the other is negligable.  If they are ideologically incapable, that's their
problem.

Actually it may not even be necessary to pick one or the other exclusively.
For example Latka maintains its documentation in docbook, but Dion added a
transform to Anakia so it works with the site build.  Similarly you may be
able to provide DVSL and XSL alternatives.

This is not a slam on Oliver or anybody else.  This just happened to be the
most recent post on this topic.

- Morgan

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))


> Guys,
>
> Bottom line (you could probably guess these but it needs to be said):
>
> 1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote
> on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined
> effort with centipede.
>
> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>
> So what decides (in the minds of the maven community) whether it is
> successful...  If its that a large set or all of the projects on
> jakarta/xml/etc use it well then collaboration is the easiest way (it
> removes my and several others objections).  If its to force us all to
> use your pet projects, well good luck.  Its certainly not turning out to
> be a springboard for collaboration.
>
> You want the hearts and minds, then we've outlined it.  Work towards
> collaboration.  Work towards standards support.  Then you'll reach a
> consensus.  If not, *shrug* then I'm sure some projects will use it, but
> it will imo kind of be a flop of the goals I assume it wants to achieve.
>
> -Andy
>
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >
> >> on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The
> >>> approaches
> >>> are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
> >>> external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs
> >>> generating one
> >>> etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision
> >>> to get
> >>> past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that
> >>> works and
> >>> is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
> >>> coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't
think,
> >>> IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
> >>
> >> I can't stand XSL...
> >
> >
> >
> > And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages...
> >
> > Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you
> > want to transform your documents.  You aren't locked into XSL if you
> > don't want.  THat's the beauty of it.  WIth Maven, you are locked into
> > DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/
> >
> > But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel
> > of a site?  If the theme exists--use it.  It's that simple.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: cross-project communications

[Morgan Delagrange]

Actually, I think general@jakarta is often rather high
traffic.  Personally, I'd rather not combine them and
receive a lot of potentially irrelevant emails
(particularly non-Java related emails).  If a
developer thinks s/he's missing out on Apache XML
activity, there's a very simple solution: subscribe to
general@xml (and vice-versa).

- Morgan

--- "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What do you think of combining the general@xml and
> general@jakarta
> mail lists?  By comparison to most other jakarta/xml
> mail lists I'm on.. 
>  Both
> are relatively low traffic aside from the barrage of
> "Hi We're company X 
> with
> an O/R mapping library we want to make into a
> subproject we've not got the
> source online and most of our employees have been
> sacked but we're sure it
> will just interest the heck out of everyone"
> messages, but through a bit 
> more discipline
> on all of our parts we could easily reduce the
> thread size of those.
> 
> -Andy
> 
> >
> > I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just
> looking for constructive 
> > solutions.
> >
> > Regards,
> >Santiago
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: News Page Problems

[Morgan Delagrange]

Thats probably my fault.  I'll fix it.

--- "Daniel F. Savarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> In message
>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Kur
> t Schrader writes:
> >It seems that whomever updated
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html
> >last somehow managed to generate it in such a way
> so that it has two
> >menus, instead of just one.  The jakarta-site2
> build from CVS appears to
> >work correctly though, so someone with karma
> probably just needs to
> >rebuild and update the site.
> 
> When I tried to update news.html I got a conflict,
> so I moved it to
> news.html.conflict and did an update for the sake of
> having the Web
> site look right.  I'll leave it to someone else who
> knows what was
> intended to resolve the conflict.
> 
> daniel
> 
> 
> 
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[ANNOUNCE] Jakarta Commons Collections 2.0 Released

[Morgan Delagrange]

Come and get the Commons Collections 2.0 release!

http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/components.html

Commons-Collections provides a suite of classes that extend or augment the
Java Collections Framework.  Collections 2.0 includes 11 new collections and
3 new comparators, as well as several enhancements and bug fixes.  Enjoy!

- The Commons Dev Team


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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API


> At 15:30 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
> >I am pro-Log4J.  I wish I lived in that Log4J-only world (until/unless
> >something better came along).  Generally, commons-logging neither
encourages
> >nor discourages use of Log4J.  However, I would argue that it _does_
> >encourage Log4J a bit by not forcing a logging implementation war.
>
> True. It does encourage it, but only initially. On the long run,
> however, people will run into problems with their logging (as is
> happening now). They will say this commons-logging+log4j stuff is too
> complicated, we'll switch to JDK 1.4 logging, at least that does not
> have any CLASSPATH problems.

I'm not convinced.  These sound like minor, temporary issues, not
showstoppers.  Classpaths do get a little complicated, but it's only one
additional JAR.

> >The fact is, JDK 1.4 logging in particular is going to become more and
more
> >common over time, and unless someone can summon forth a magic recantation
of
> >that JSR, then a component-level interface with popular loggers is
> >necessary.  Otherwise you have to pick, which only services us at the
> >expense of those who use other logger implementations.
>
> Possible but I would not be that sure.  We will have very strong new
> features in log4j 1.3 (the release after 1.2) which will leave JDK 1.4
> logging even further behind.  Just as importantly, log4j documentation
> is going to get a massive boost with the upcoming log4j book.

I hope you're right.  Log4J is a great tool.  Still, you cannot dictate
preference.

> Sun's me-too strategy is bound to fail. The question is whether the
> bigger jakarta community is going to help us defeat JSR47 or stand in
> the way.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it?

- Morgan

> --
> Ceki




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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API


> At 15:10 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> >Where is this world where "everyone" uses Log4J?
>
> That world = (world - jakarta)
>

I am pro-Log4J.  I wish I lived in that Log4J-only world (until/unless
something better came along).  Generally, commons-logging neither encourages
nor discourages use of Log4J.  However, I would argue that it _does_
encourage Log4J a bit by not forcing a logging implementation war.

The fact is, JDK 1.4 logging in particular is going to become more and more
common over time, and unless someone can summon forth a magic recantation of
that JSR, then a component-level interface with popular loggers is
necessary.  Otherwise you have to pick, which only services us at the
expense of those who use other logger implementations.



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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Jeff Schnitzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: Comments on the commons-logging API


> > From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> > Yes, the defining advantage to the commons-logging API that I see is
that
> > it
> > allows users to adopt a single logging implementation, which confers
real
>
> What needs to be appended to that statement is "...if everyone codes to
> the commons-logging API".

Every component that uses the Commons Logging proxy will play well with
every other component using the proxy, _plus_ all code using a single logger
implementation of your choice.

Saying that everyone must code to the commons-logging API is an
oversimplification.  More accurately, coding to commons-logging facilitates
integration with a single arbitrary logging implementation.  Any environment
that uses a combination of the logging facade and a single logging
implementation will work well.  Any environment that uses more than one
logging implementation will not work as well.

> The exact same statement can be reconstructed
> using "Log4J API" and it is equally true.

If you can guarantee that:

  1) All Jakarta developers will use Log4J in their code,
 eschewing even LogKit, another logging implementation
 under the Jakarta umbrella.

and

  2) All Jakarta _users_ will use Log4J in their code.

then there is no need for a proxy logger.

> If everyone uses commons-logging, then only one logger must be
> configured.  If everyone uses Log4J, then only one logger must be
> configured.

Where is this world where "everyone" uses Log4J?

> If third-party software is using different loggers, then
> you have to configure multiple loggers no matter what API your code
> uses.

Unless that third-party is Jakarta, and that software is utilizing a proxy
logger like commons-logging.  That's the whole point, we can't (and
shouldn't) dictate what implementations others may choose to use.  We can,
however, facilitate integration with their implementation.  Or we can leave
them to the wolves.

> It seems to me that the commons-logging API just adds Yet Another
> Logging API... especially when someone gets the bright idea to make a
> "native" implementation of the API for performance reasons.
>
> At least with Turbine, Struts, (Maverick :-), etc, there are some
> fundamentally different approaches to the problem of how to publish a
> web application.  Logging doesn't seem that complicated.  The massive
> duplication of this basic feature in the Jakarta codebase is silly, and
> trying to build an abstraction layer on top of it seems even sillier.

I'm not sure what "massive duplication" you're referring to, but you seem to
believe that an abstraction layer is unimportant because you think everyone
should use Log4J.  I think the LogKit folks would disagree.  I do too; for
simple logging in a JDK 1.4 environment, using the built-in logger should be
perfectly acceptable.  Because I made that choice, does that mean I should
not get any output from Jakarta components in my log?

- Morgan

> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API


> At 15:18 27.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> >Here's the problem, as I see it.
> >
> >Suppose Commons component A decides to adopt Log4J, Commons component B
> >decides to adopt LogKit, and Commons component C adopts JDK1.4 logging.
> >They will all minimally function with the right jars in the classpath.
> >However you (the end-user) are left with maintaining configuration for 3
> >different logging APIs, which is tedious at best.  When you take into
> >account cool features like variable log levels, Log4J appenders and the
> >like, you're pretty much guaranteed to swallow up useful configuration
> >options because sophisticated configurations are too difficult to
maintain
> >over mutiple logging implementations.
> >
> >Contrarily, if all three Commons components use a logging facade, you can
> >focus all your configuration efforts on one logging implementation.
Sure,
> >there is a trade-off; you don't have access to all the features, and the
> >interface between the facade and the implementation must be maintained.
But
> >the benefits are not just political; they potentially make the end-users
> >configuration much easier.
>
> So, if I understand correctly the reason for adopting commons-logging
> API is for convenience rather than non-intrusiveness as a library
> (with respect to logging).

Yes, the defining advantage to the commons-logging API that I see is that it
allows users to adopt a single logging implementation, which confers real
benefits particularly with regard to configuration.  Easy transitions from
one logging implementation to another are not particularly important; the
tangible benefit is to let disparate components have the _option_ to use the
same log without complicated bridges between logging implementations.

> With commons-logging, the end user will only have to configure the
> logging API that common-logging selects (or detects) but the selection
> mechanism is dynamic such that there are many ways and reasons for
> which the selected API will be the wrong one. This is the uncertainty
> factor I am talking about.  Uncertainty breeds confusion and confusion
> breeds despair.
>

I believe the order of precedence is well documented.  I think the logging
component would benefit from warning messages when a default implementation
is selected (like Log4J warns you when there is no log4j.properties file
available), but this doesn't require any fundamental change to the API.

If you want to take about confusion and despair, look at the environment
that's running three logging implementations simultaneously.

- Morgan


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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: Comments on the commons-logging API


> At 11:49 27.03.2002 -0600,  Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
>
> >But this isn't really the reason commons-logging was created.  Note that
> >most of the commons components are just that--tiny libraries meant to be
> >integrated/incorporated into larger frameworks and larger applications.
> >Some of these components need/want logging capabilities, or at least some
> >people need/want some components to have logging capabilities.  But it
seems
> >a obtrusive for some tiny library to dictate the logging framework (if
any)
> >that should be used by the larger application that contains it.  So the
> >component is stuck with a decision between not using logging at all, or
> >forcing some "standard" logging implementation upon the larger framework,
> >and the containing application is stuck with either converting everything
to
> >this "standard" logging implementation (and hoping that each component
> >agrees on what that is) or having a heterogeneous set of logs and logging
> >implementations.  Search-and-replace code switching isn't really an
option
> >for the commons components, or at least not a terribly good one.
>
> If your library chooses to use logging API XYZ, this does not impose
> XYZ to the clients of your library. Your clients can use the logging
> library they prefer (if they are using logging API) and your library
> can use XYZ. One choice does not necessarily influence the other. For
> example, the fact that JBoss uses log4j does not impose a logging
> library to the bean developer. Similarly, Tomcat's logging library
> does not prevent web-app developers from using log4j.

But it doesn't facilitate it either.

Here's the problem, as I see it.

Suppose Commons component A decides to adopt Log4J, Commons component B
decides to adopt LogKit, and Commons component C adopts JDK1.4 logging.
They will all minimally function with the right jars in the classpath.
However you (the end-user) are left with maintaining configuration for 3
different logging APIs, which is tedious at best.  When you take into
account cool features like variable log levels, Log4J appenders and the
like, you're pretty much guaranteed to swallow up useful configuration
options because sophisticated configurations are too difficult to maintain
over mutiple logging implementations.

Contrarily, if all three Commons components use a logging facade, you can
focus all your configuration efforts on one logging implementation.  Sure,
there is a trade-off; you don't have access to all the features, and the
interface between the facade and the implementation must be maintained.  But
the benefits are not just political; they potentially make the end-users
configuration much easier.

Even if all Commons components used the same logging implementation (Log4J
for example), other projects in Jakarta-land may choose otherwise.  If you
add enough Jakarta projects to your environment, you eventually end up with
the scenario described above.  It's a worthwhile effort to attempt a logging
solution that plays well with the Jakarta community at large.  I think in
many cases the Commons Logging component can fill that role.

To take your analogy of trading a nickel's worth of functionality for a
penny payoff later (only because I'm dying to play off of it, FEEL FREE TO
IGNORE THIS PARAGRAPH :), yes each logger implementation delivers that
nickel.  However Log4J is delivering a US nickel, LogKit a Canadian nickel,
and JDK 1.4 a wooden nickel.  Each end-user becomes a bank that must
constantly monitor the exchange rate between those nickels, including those
wooden nickels which aren't worth a damn.  Some banks would prefer the
guarantee of a good penny than deal with the hassle of all those nickels.
:)

> In other words, the argument about (jakarta-commons) components
> dictating a logging API to the containing application is widely
> accepted although very dubious in my opinion.
>

I don't know if the word "dictate" quite captures it.

>
> Anyway, I think we have been through all this already. I do not expect
> to be able to convince anyone altough I suspect uncertainty and the
> bug reports will, slowly but surely.

It may be difficult to maintain.  The most we can do to mitigate it is
frequent releases and careful version management.

> >Commons-Logging is meant to provide an alternative solution: create a
> >facade/adapter around an arbitrary logging API, use it at the common
> >component level, and allow the user (the containing application) to
select
> >which specific logging implementation (if any) to use.  Then the same
binary
> >works everywhere, and in many (most?) cases, the commons-logging will
just
> >quietly do what you hope it would. (If you've got log4j, it uses it. If
> >you've got JDK 1.4, it uses that. If all else fails, it doesn't do
> >

Re: Jakarta Overview

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Jakarta Overview


> Hi,
> I'll try not to keep banging on about this, I know its not that important
in
> the great scheme of Why We Are Here :-)
> but ..
>
> > Yes, that is the "Commit Then Review" philosophy.  You cannot
> > prevent anyone
> > from initially committing anything, but one it has been committed you
can
> > vote it down.
>
> Ok, thats fair enough.
>
> > Any changes to a "product" require
> > consensus approval.  Does the website fit under the definition of
> > a Jakarta
> > "product"?  A good question, which does not come up very often.  Usually
> > committers are more permissive of website changes then code changes.
>
> The issue for me is that the website is in a perpetual state of releasing
> the head of cvs every time a change is made, there is no un-released
> development state for the website, and while there is arguably a
conceptual
> pre-release state while things are being reviewed it isn't clear to people
> who don't know our ways that some documents may carry the full weight of
> approval, or be Rules, or Codes of Conduct, yet others, undifferentiated,
> are merely proposals and possibly contentious at that.
>
> [The PMC should, of course, have unfettered right to publish. Its part of
> their role.]

Yup, right now it's definitely an honor's system.  The website is not really
a subproject with a list of committers; it's more of a free-for-all.  We
rely on people to be responsible, not to make unsubstantiated claims, and
not to implicitly add to or contradict the rules of the Jakarta project
(only the PMC can do that).  As far as "guidelines" are concerned, it's
difficult to sneak in questionable policies; too many people (like me ;)
monitor the commits to jakarta-site2.  That's just my opinion though; I
haven't seen many abuses to date.

With regard to the current debate over the Jakarta Overview document, I
think things are progressing as they should.  Someone contributed it, Ted
committed and posted it, and now we're discussing it.  Unless current
concerns are quelled, it will (or at least should) never gain a permanent
link from the site.

And just to add my own two cents, I don't like that document.  To date, the
policy has been to promote top-level subprojects on the top level of the
site, and let the individual subprojects describe themselves.  I still think
that's the sensible approach.  Even if the contentious language of the
Overview document were reviewed, I don't think one monster document
describing every component of every project is maintainable or all that
useful.  I think the real issue is that some subprojects are a little hard
to drill into, but that should be addressed by each subproject, not by a
dubious meta-document.

> > We have that section.  It's called CVS.  :)  It operates exactly
> > the way you
> > describe.
>
> Not if the head is going to be built and released everytime someone
commits
> something new.
> and if it isnt then its harder for people to review new material.
>
> d.

The best way to address this is to subscribe to the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list and monitor the commits.  It's
fairly painless; jakarta-site2 is a surprisingly low-traffic repository.
Essentially you are right though.  It's important to be vigilant with the
site.  Occasionally I see, for example, someone post news items concerning
"Jakarta's view on X"; that's often inappropriate.

Also I think we can rest assured that current and emeritus PMC members watch
those commits too.

- Morgan


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Re: Jakarta Overview

[Morgan Delagrange]

I'm not Ted, but let me take a stab.  :)

- Original Message -
From: "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Jakarta Overview


> Ted,
> I don't want to have an argument, and I'm not criticising Philipp for
> offering, nor for the effort he obviously put in.
> I do have some reservations with this particular page, which I'm not going
> to raise again, if anyones interested they've already read them.
>
> I would like to take you up on a couple of points you make though,
>
> > The overview has been donated to the ASF, and is under Jakarta rules
> > now.
>
> Does this mean that anything "donated" is accepted on behalf of the
project,
> by anyone with karma, without discussion and can therefore only be openly
> opposed once it has already been accepted?

Yes, that is the "Commit Then Review" philosophy.  You cannot prevent anyone
from initially committing anything, but one it has been committed you can
vote it down.

> > If anyone wants to make it more objective, have at it. If not,
> > leave it alone and it will wither away.
>
> What if (and I don't, I'm just asking) modification and inaction are not
> enough for me, I want to veto it?
> I don't have enough Karma for Jakarta-site2, but if I did would I be
within
> my rights to arbitrarily remove it? I think, and hope, not.
> Therefore it seems that it is a bigger hurdle for a donation of this kind
to
> be vetoed than accepted.

You cannot arbitrarily remove it, but you can veto it.  Under the current,
slightly strange, default voting rules for Jakarta, Ted would have to talk
you out of your objection; if he could not, he might have to back out his
change (or you could do it for him).  Any changes to a "product" require
consensus approval.  Does the website fit under the definition of a Jakarta
"product"?  A good question, which does not come up very often.  Usually
committers are more permissive of website changes then code changes.

> > Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
> > author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
> > required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
> > book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
> > have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.
>
> You're absolutely right, I agree utterly with that statement, and I hope
my
> miserable grumping doesn't put him off.
>
>
> > Apache stands for patching ...
>
> But we don't want to have to patch any old thing that comes swinging by,
do
> we?
>
> Surely there could be a slightly better, and simple, way of accepting
> website proposals that makes it obvious that they are undergoing peer
> review?

Well you can always exercise your veto.  Then the committer backs it out,
discusses changes on the list, makes some modifications, and resubmits for
another vote.

> And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose --
> A "proposals" section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit
> any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus
> of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining
> the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance?
>
> d.

We have that section.  It's called CVS.  :)  It operates exactly the way you
describe.

- Morgan


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Re: Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)

[Morgan Delagrange]

We could save travel money if we slept under the bar.

- Original Message -
From: "acoliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 1:56 PM
Subject: Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)


> If a group were zealously opensource, a group Could publically boycott the
> JavaOne, hold a "countersession" called "JakartaOne" at a bar or club and
a
> certain club owner might make a killing in selling inebriation to geeks
and
> make a very public spit in a certain corporations eye.
>
> Hypothetically of course.  It would certainly make for interesting press..
>
> Moot for me because of my limited wealth.
>
> -Andy
>
> >On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:20:48   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote.
> >"Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> I would love to host JakartaOne at Studio Z. I think it would be a lot
of
> >> fun.
> >>
> >>   For free. *
> >>
> >> However, I do need to know the day/time/length of the event as well as
> what
> >> other things will be needed (chairs/tables/whatever). Unless some
people
> >> here volunteers, I can look into getting some great local
> >> techno/house/trance/ambient DJ's to spin music.
> >>
> >> We do have a DSL line into the space as well as ethernet drops
literally
> >> every five feet (the space was a .bomb before we moved in) and I will
> have
> >> an open 802.11b network available in the next week or so (as soon as
the
> >> Linksys is delivered). Bring your laptops. :-)
> >>
> >> Studio Z is not walking distance from Moscone, however, it is only
about
> a 5
> >> minute, $4-5 taxi ride. Not a big deal.
> >>
> >>
> >> * The only requirement is that the date/times not conflict with any
other
> >> events that we are putting on there.
> >>
> >>
> >> The Covalent deal also sounds cool, but I doubt they have a large dance
> >> floor and a big sound system. :-)
> >
> >And I can vouch for him... The space is _fantastic_... Been there, seen
> >that, wanna get back! :) Go JON! :)
> >
> >Pier (for free? Where's that nice scottish spirit of yours! :)
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds them

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "acoliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds
them


> >On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:01:31   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote.
> >"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Including whiteboards, etternet-hubs, wireless, telcon/phone, coffee,
> >> thee, softdrinks &c for one day (take your pick; tentative suggestion:
> >> that Tuesday).
> >
> >Plane tickets? :)
> >
>
> oooh h me too me too!  Throw in hotels and registration fees and I'm
> there dude!
>

I don't even need registration fees.  I'd much rather go to JakartaOne.  :)

- Morgan


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Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[Morgan Delagrange]

Congratulations to the new PMC members!  We couldn't ask for a more
qualified group.  :)

- Morgan


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.


> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>
>
> Thanks for voting.
>
> We received 75 valid ballot forms (from 219 committers). There where 462
> votes casted on nominees and 63 abstaining votes (i.e. with a total of
> 7x75=525 votes).
>
> None of the received ballot forms where rejected. No issues where found
> during the verification of the email sender/messages.
>
> The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order):
>
>   Stefan Bodewig
>   Craig McClanahan
>   Diane Holt
>   Conor MacNeill
>   Geir Magnusson Jr.
>   Costin Monolache
>   Sam Ruby
>
> The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately
> and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF
> board meeting.
>
> Should you have issue with those elections or its procedure then please
> contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your vote counters: Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dw.
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
> Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76
> Charset: noconv
>
> iQCVAwUBPHp8QjGmPZbsFAuBAQHXnAP+Jlfa5oCvFumrlYC07P27FZUL7SkJzML6
> OlvkCShXJBnsvN5glDkKhzPPLVDZMSuPEXRusT7B08hxoqyzLWhe9AXV2QPx3gUI
> nju20ZfQhn8a9OiLKbUEa8i4kP7bd8jXmRHmyTyYrC22ZE7ejvyQni4uvm98S5W1
> e1m8VWWhOds=
> =f3Ef
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
>
> --
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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic "advice" on this board

[Morgan Delagrange]

Also, stop crossposting to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Pick one list or the
other, please.

- Original Message -
From: "Esterkin, Alex" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic
"advice" on this board


> I hope not many enterprise applications are built using this ignorant
> 'advice'.  IBM argued against EJBs up until recently because of countless
> deficiencies in EJB container implementation in WebSphere 3.5.*.  Since
> WebSphere 4.0 introduction, they have clearly warmed up to using EJBs in
> their "best practices" white papers.
>
> As any other technology, EJBs can be abused. If one mapped a fully
> normalized DB schema consisting of 500 data tables to 500 entity beans,
this
> would be an idiotic architecture. In any case, this has nothing to do with
> MVC or Struts.
>
> I suggest members of this list stick to the main topic of discussion -
> Struts.  Struts has nothing to do with EJBs.  In a properly designed
> application, EJBs, DAOs or any other persistence related components
> shouldn't be accessed directly from presentation elements and components,
> such as JSP tags.
>
> Sticking closer to the topic of this list will allow to reduce the flow of
> postings to more reasonable levels.
>
> Best regards,
> 
>Alex Esterkin
> =
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:42
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
>
>
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
>
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems.
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
>
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC
> is all you need.
>
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
>
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
>
> lol,
> Vic
>
>
>
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jakarta-site2 karma please

[Morgan Delagrange]

Could someone grant me karma to jakarta-site2?

I'd like to post a copy of the versioning guidelines from Taglibs
(http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-taglibs/HOWTO-RELEASE?rev=1.8&content
-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup) and Commons
(http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-commons/xdocs/versioning.xml?rev=1.1&;
content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup) to the site, so that they can be
shared by those projects and any others that wish it.

- Morgan


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Re: Nominee's for the Jakarta PMC 2002. Last change to debug.

[Morgan Delagrange]

Yes, I noted this discrepancy in an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Thanks for
identifying which two messages were combined though; I only knew that half
of it wasn't written by Rod.

- Morgan

- Original Message -
From: "jean-frederic clere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: Nominee's for the Jakarta PMC 2002. Last change to debug.


> +++ CUT +++
> > Morgan Delagrange (accepted)
> >
> > I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC.  He's a founding
> > member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of
> > some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial
> > amount of code, documentation and organizational support to both
projects.
> >
> I think that is a wrong copy + paste:
> ++
> > He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> >
> > He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> > I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-*
projects.
> >
> ++
>
> See
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=101258374321720&w=2
> and
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=101284536210044&w=2
>
> Cheers
>
> Jean-frederic
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hi all,

Well, I shouldn't buck the trend;  here is some info about me.

I've been a Jakarta committer for approximately 13 months, 2 weeks.  I
started out on Taglibs, where I contributed a couple of taglibs to round out
the "scope" taglibs: session, application, request and application.  Soon
afterwards I donated the tag library which came to be known as "DBTags", a
tag library for basic JDBC access.  Ironically all of these tags will
probably be trumped by the "standard" tag library, which is now available as
an Early Access release.  Looks like I might need a new project!

I'm also a committer on the Commons project.  I have worked on DBCP, the
Logging component, HTTPClient, Latka (Latka is a functional testing program
with an XML interface), and the Commons charter.

Thanks for the nomination!

- Morgan


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Are 3 votes necessary for the PMC nomination? [was: Re: To jvote or not to jvote]

[Morgan Delagrange]

So, what was the answer to the question below?  If we really do need two +1s
for a nomination, then I have some campaigning to do!  (Unless someone else
wants to go ahead and +1 me, if only to shut me up.  ;)

- Original Message -
From: "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote


> ARE two +1 votes necessary?  That was not mentioned in the original email
> "Announcement: JakartaPMC elections for 2002".  (Just to stave off any
> potential debate here, the ASF-appointed administrator gets to decide how
> elections are run.  It's not our call.)
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:52 PM
> Subject: RE: To jvote or not to jvote
>
>
> > Thanks Dirk.
> >
> >
> > But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only
> > Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
> > +1s all sent to "jvote".
> >
> > How should this be fixed?
> >
> >
> > This is what I see in "general":
> > (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)
> >
> >  - Ted Husted
> >  The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Stefan Bodewig
> >  - Conor MacNeill
> >  Nothing went to "jvote".
> >  (I think that both are still missing votes.)
> >
> >  - Scott Sanders
> >  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Sam Ruby
> >  Nothing went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Peter Donald
> >  Nothing went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Paulo Gaspar
> >  Nothing went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Morgan Delagranje
> >  Only his acceptance went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Geir Magnusson
> >  Enough votes went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Diane Holt
> >  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Craig McClanahan
> >  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
> >
> >  - Costin Manolache
> >  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
> >
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> > > To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > >
> > > > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> > >
> > > > Why? What are the rules?
> > >
> > > See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure
it
> > > is clearer.
> > >
> > > What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> > > from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> > > be run in the election.
> > >
> > > Dw.
> > >
> > >
> > > T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> > > February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> > > nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> > > from the nominee being received.
> > >
> > > ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> > > description about who you are, what you want to
> > > accomplish.
> > >
> > > ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> > > message confirming that you are accepting the
> > > nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> > >
> > > ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> > > wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> > > you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> > > he or she would consent of course.)
> > >
> > > ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> > > be nominated.
> > >
> > > ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> > > the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: To jvote or not to jvote

[Morgan Delagrange]

ARE two +1 votes necessary?  That was not mentioned in the original email
"Announcement: JakartaPMC elections for 2002".  (Just to stave off any
potential debate here, the ASF-appointed administrator gets to decide how
elections are run.  It's not our call.)

- Original Message -
From: "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: To jvote or not to jvote


> Thanks Dirk.
>
>
> But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only
> Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
> +1s all sent to "jvote".
>
> How should this be fixed?
>
>
> This is what I see in "general":
> (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)
>
>  - Ted Husted
>  The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".
>
>  - Stefan Bodewig
>  - Conor MacNeill
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>  (I think that both are still missing votes.)
>
>  - Scott Sanders
>  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
>
>  - Sam Ruby
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Peter Donald
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Paulo Gaspar
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Morgan Delagranje
>  Only his acceptance went to "jvote".
>
>  - Geir Magnusson
>  Enough votes went to "jvote".
>
>  - Diane Holt
>  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
>
>  - Craig McClanahan
>  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
>
>  - Costin Manolache
>  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> >
> > > Why? What are the rules?
> >
> > See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> > is clearer.
> >
> > What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> > from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> > be run in the election.
> >
> > Dw.
> >
> >
> > T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> > February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> > nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> > from the nominee being received.
> >
> > ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> > description about who you are, what you want to
> > accomplish.
> >
> > ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> > message confirming that you are accepting the
> > nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> >
> > ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> > wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> > you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> > he or she would consent of course.)
> >
> > ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> > be nominated.
> >
> > ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> > the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > For additional commands, e-mail:

> >
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange

[Morgan Delagrange]

I accept this nomination, which was originally sent to the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.  Thanks Rod!

- Original Message -
From: "Waldhoff, Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Jakarta General List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange


> I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC.  He's a founding
> member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of
> some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial
amount
> of code, documentation and organizational support to both projects.
>


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PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Morgan Delagrange]

I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.

Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.

- Morgan Delagrange


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PMC Nomination - Ted Husted

[Morgan Delagrange]

I would like to nominate Ted Husted for re-election to the PMC.

Ted has a strong (and active) committment to documentation, probably the
most often neglected component of any project.  He also was a driving force
in the Commons project; it's unlikely that the Commons would have been so
successful in its first year if it weren't for Ted's influence.  Finally, he
may have the most level head in Jakarta.  That's a big plus.

- Morgan Delagrange



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Re: problem with Apache email?

[Morgan Delagrange]

Yup, a kind Jakarta member told me why mail wasn't working for me.  I had
to log into icarus and reconfigure Pine for the new server.  Everything
seems fine now.  Whew!

On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Glenn Nielsen wrote:

> Morgan,
> 
> My mail gets delivered to icarus just fine.
> I found that pine couldn't read the Mailbox for some reason
> and reported 0 messages.
> 
> ls -l Mailbox to see if you have email
> 
> If you do, then try using mutt.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Glenn
> 
> > "Delagrange, Morgan" wrote:
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 12:30 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: problem with Apache email?
> > > Importance: Low
> > >
> > >
> > > on 7/19/01 10:14 PM, "Delagrange, Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yup I've read all that.  The client patches are for Outlook
> > > 2000.  Our
> > > > network admins tell me that our Exchange
> > >
> > > There are client patches out there for all the versions.
> > >
> > > Also, it is still no excuse, you could get a free web based
> > > email account or
> > > something.
> > 
> > Of course I can download a new client or resubscribe somewhere online, but I'd 
>prefer to
> > use Pine, which I've been using since I became a committer.  Sigh.
> 
> -- 
> --
> Glenn Nielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] | /* Spelin donut madder|
> MOREnet System Programming   |  * if iz ina coment.  |
> Missouri Research and Education Network  |  */   |
> --
> 
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Re: problem with Apache email?

[Morgan Delagrange]

on 7/19/01 6:51 PM, "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> They are icarus and daedelus right?  I just tried icarus and it was no
> better.  But you're probably on to something, maybe something got goofed
> up in the transition to the new CVS server.  (I didn't actually get this
> email in my Apache account, by the way.  Had to paste it from
Outlook.  :(
> )  I know a few other folks use the SMTP server; is everyone
experiencing
> this?
> 
> - Morgan

The smart  thing to do is to setup a .forward file and keep the resource
usage on apache.org down. Oh wait, I just posted about that like 2 days
ago...sigh...

-jon

I probably didn't get the email.  :)  That's a good idea, I'll probably do
that, although it's a moot point at the moment...no email to forward.

I started using my Apache account, because at work we have to use
Outlook 98, which is incapable (yes, incapable) of sending emails without
reformatting them as HTML.  Some committers are very adamant about text
emails, eh Jon?  

- Morgan



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Re: problem with Apache email?

[Morgan Delagrange]

They are icarus and daedelus right?  I just tried icarus and it was no
better.  But you're probably on to something, maybe something got goofed
up in the transition to the new CVS server.  (I didn't actually get this
email in my Apache account, by the way.  Had to paste it from Outlook.  :(
)  I know a few other folks use the SMTP server; is everyone experiencing
this?

- Morgan


on 7/19/01 6:10 PM, "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Is something up with the email for committers?  I haven't received any
of
> the taglibs emails in my apache.org account today.
> 
> - Morgan

There are two boxes now...maybe mail is being delivered to one and not the
other?

-jon




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problem with Apache email?

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hi all,

Is something up with the email for committers?  I haven't received any of
the taglibs emails in my apache.org account today.

- Morgan



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Re: Binaries in CVS

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Costin Manolache wrote:
> >
> > One compromise may be to use a separate CVS only
> for binaries, with the
> > latest "released" version of each product.
> >
> > Users will have to check out the project cvs and
> the common binaries CVS.
> >
> > Benefits over checking in binaries in all
> projects:
> > - only pristine sources in all projects ( except
> the binary tree )
> > - consistent behavior and location for the
> binaries for all projects
> using
> > the binary tree
> > - less duplication and space ( and download time )
> > - a simple way to get the latest stable release
> for all jars ( a cvs
> > update will also get only what's changed, instead
> of requiring to
> > download and install x different tar.gz files )
> 
> +1
> 
> Perhaps we could even get a change into ant.bat and
> ant.sh to "
> -Djakarta.home=$JAKARTA_HOME".
>
> [big ol' snip]

A common binary repository sounds like the way to go. 
There's no strict need for everbody to buy into it
though.  If, for some reason, a new release of a JAR
breaks a particular subproject, that subproject can
always check in the required version of a binary
locally.  Or ignore the common repository and check
everything in locally, if they're dead set against the
idea.  To me, a common repository sounds like a lot
less work for the individual subproject owners, but
Jakarta members are nothing if not peculiar.

Of course, there are administrative details to
consider.  I would be very wary of putting anything
approaching a beta release in the common repository. 
We would need some ground rules to make sure that
didn't happen.

- Morgan


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Re: Jakarta PMC election results

[Morgan Delagrange]

Ah ha, I missed item 5.  That's exactly what I was
hoping would happen.  Re-elections are also a good
thing.  Thanks, Sam!  

And a damn fine spreadsheet.  I must admit, I'm not
familiar with the inner workings of the Jakarta CVS
system.  I didn't even know the avail file was out
there until Jon pointed me to it this afternoon.  Very
helpful in putting names to projects.

--- Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> >
> > Sam Ruby:
> >   Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his work
> >   (other that his Chairmanship, that is :)
> 
> Well, let me introduce myself then.
> 
> I was the release manager for Tomcat 3.1 and pretty
> much all of the
> releases of Ant until 1.0.  I was a very active
> coder in both (primarily
> focusing on getting both to work on JDK 1.1 and
> Windows) until they got
> "good enough" for my purposes at which point I
> focused on community
> building activities.  I spent some time nurturing
> the xml-soap subproject
> and getting the Bean Scripting Framework open
> sourced.  Most recently, my
> focus has been on a proposal for jakarta-alexandria
> by the name of "Gump",
> and occasionally nudging the commons proposal in the
> direction I would like
> to see it headed.
> 
> > Maybe Sam could comment on the roles of the
> nominees,
> > since I'm sure he knows what project they work on,
> > and the site is not specific enough.
> 
> Watch this space.  Take a look at the agenda I
> posted.  Pay particular
> attention to items 3.2 and 5.
> 
> Also item 4.2 is the key towards the long term
> solution.  I personally like
> the model of the Apache board where every year every
> board seat is up for
> re-election, and all of the members get an
> opportunity to nominate and vote
> for their choice.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> P.S.  If you want to see who has karma to which
> project, "cvs checkout
> CVSROOT".  Look at a file by the name of avail. 
> Meanwhile, here is that
> information in a more convenient form:
> 
> (See attached file: committers.zip)

> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/zip
name=committers.zip
>
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Re: Jakarta PMC election results

[Morgan Delagrange]

That list is perfect, Jon.  Thanks!

Perhaps the PMC might go as far as to designate point
person(s) for each subproject?  E.g. if nobody from
the PMC is monitoring the dev mailing list for a
particular project, they're not really in the know
despite their karma.  I know that those karma lists
are considerably longer than the people I hear from in
a typical week, which makes me fear that some are not
active participants.

--- Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 3/8/01 2:39 PM, "Morgan Delagrange"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > So if you cross-reference this list against
> Jakarta
> > subprojects, you get the following subproject
> > representation:
> > 
> 
> Ah, I see what you are trying to do.
> 
> Actually, it is better to just look at the avail
> file and get your data that
> way. That is about as specific as possible because
> it shows who has CVS
> write access to what.
> 
>
<http://www.apache.org/websrc/viewcvs.cgi/CVSROOT/avail>
> 
> From that POV, you can see that there are ASF
> members and or PMC members
> involved with *every* Jakarta Project currently
> available.
> 
> In reality, we should simply create another page on
> the website that lists
> things out in exact specifics. It would be something
> similar to what I
> started here:
> 
>
<http://www.apache.org/foundation/members-projects.html>
> 
> As you can see, I'm involved with quite a few
> projects. :-) It would be nice
> if others picked up the balls as well. I'm getting
> tired.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
>
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Re: Jakarta PMC election results

[Morgan Delagrange]

Sorry, two corrections:

  Jason van Zyl
No listing on Site

  Watchdog 0 (not 1)

--- Morgan Delagrange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah, so according to the site the proposed PMC
> represents:
> 
>   Peter Donald:
> Avalon, Ant
>   Diane Holt: 
> No listing on Site, don't know her 
> work
>   Ted Husted: 
> Site doesn't list Karma, but I know
> he at least works on Struts
>   Ceki Gülcü:
> Log4J
>   Geir Magnusson Jr.:
> Velocity
>   Daniel F. Savarese:
> Site doesn't list Karma, probably ORO
>   Hans Bergsten:
> Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his
> work, probably Tomcat?
>   James Duncan Davidson:
> Tomcat, Ant
>   Pierpaolo Fumagalli:
> Jserv, probably Tomcat?
>   Craig McClanahan:
> Jserv, Struts, probably Tomcat?
>   Sam Ruby:
> Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his work
> (other that his Chairmanship, that is :)
>   Jon S. Stevens:
> JServ, ECS, Turbine
>   Anil Vijendran:
> Tomcat
> 
> So if you cross-reference this list against Jakarta
> subprojects, you get the following subproject
> representation:
>  
>   Ant 2
>   Avalon 1
>   ECS 1
>   James 0
>   Jetspeed 0
>   JMeter 0
>   Log4J 1
>   ORO 1
>   Regexp 0
>   Slide 0
>   Struts 2
>   Taglibs 0
>   Tomcat 5
>   Turbine 1
>   Velocity 1
>   Watchdog 1
> 
> An improvement, I guess, but still not perfect.  The
> Apache board's compliant still seems legitimate,
> since
> we don't really know who's representing what.  
> 
> Maybe Sam could comment on the roles of the
> nominees,
> since I'm sure he knows what project they work on,
> and
> the site is not specific enough.
> 
> --- Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > on 3/8/01 11:44 AM, "Morgan Delagrange"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > I have no objection to the elections, but for
> the
> > > benefit of the Jakarta members, could a current
> > PMC
> > > member please list the PMC members (current and
> > > proposed) and which projects they are qualified
> to
> > > represent?  I at least would like to know who's
> > > speaking for what project.
> > > 
> > > - Morgan
> > 
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
> > 
> > -jon
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> 
> 
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Re: Jakarta PMC election results

[Morgan Delagrange]

Ah, so according to the site the proposed PMC
represents:

  Peter Donald:
Avalon, Ant
  Diane Holt: 
No listing on Site, don't know her 
work
  Ted Husted: 
Site doesn't list Karma, but I know
he at least works on Struts
  Ceki Gülcü:
Log4J
  Geir Magnusson Jr.:
Velocity
  Daniel F. Savarese:
Site doesn't list Karma, probably ORO
  Hans Bergsten:
Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his
work, probably Tomcat?
  James Duncan Davidson:
Tomcat, Ant
  Pierpaolo Fumagalli:
Jserv, probably Tomcat?
  Craig McClanahan:
Jserv, Struts, probably Tomcat?
  Sam Ruby:
Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his work
(other that his Chairmanship, that is :)
  Jon S. Stevens:
JServ, ECS, Turbine
  Anil Vijendran:
Tomcat

So if you cross-reference this list against Jakarta
subprojects, you get the following subproject
representation:
 
  Ant 2
  Avalon 1
  ECS 1
  James 0
  Jetspeed 0
  JMeter 0
  Log4J 1
  ORO 1
  Regexp 0
  Slide 0
  Struts 2
  Taglibs 0
  Tomcat 5
  Turbine 1
  Velocity 1
  Watchdog 1

An improvement, I guess, but still not perfect.  The
Apache board's compliant still seems legitimate, since
we don't really know who's representing what.  

Maybe Sam could comment on the roles of the nominees,
since I'm sure he knows what project they work on, and
the site is not specific enough.

--- Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 3/8/01 11:44 AM, "Morgan Delagrange"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I have no objection to the elections, but for the
> > benefit of the Jakarta members, could a current
> PMC
> > member please list the PMC members (current and
> > proposed) and which projects they are qualified to
> > represent?  I at least would like to know who's
> > speaking for what project.
> > 
> > - Morgan
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
>
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Re: Jakarta PMC election results

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hi all,

I have no objection to the elections, but for the
benefit of the Jakarta members, could a current PMC
member please list the PMC members (current and
proposed) and which projects they are qualified to
represent?  I at least would like to know who's
speaking for what project.

- Morgan


--- Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 3/7/01 8:04 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > Peter Donald:  five +1's, one +0, one -1. 
>   Passes.
> > Diane Holt:   six +1's.Passes.
> Beyond challenge.
> > Ted Husted:   five +1's, one +0.  Passes.
> > Ceki Gülcü:   seven +1's.  Passes.
> Beyond challange.
> > Geir Magnusson Jr.:four +1's, two +0's.
> Passes.
> > Daniel F. Savarese:four +1's, two +0's.
> Passes.
> > Jason van Zyl: four +1's, two +0's.
> Passes.
> 
> +1
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- 
> If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a
> way to take
> your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html>
> 
> 
>
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Re: [POLL] Re: Code Sharing Concepts

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hear hear!  I think that Taglibs is an excellent model
for a library-oriented subproject.  Here are some
features of Taglibs (some overlap with Craig's
comments) that I think would translate quite well:

  * individual landing pages for each taglib
(essentially sub-subprojects)
  * standardized documentation formats in most
taglibs
  * clearly defined divisions between tag 
libraries in the CVS repository
  * "courteous" interaction between taglib 
developers (i.e., I don't muck about with
your taglib without asking)
  * lots of user interaction on the dev list
esp. concerning release candidates (which
neutrilizes maverick developer
syndrome and reduces the necessary number
of committers)
  * reasonable scope boundaries (e.g. the JDBC
taglib doesn't do database pooling, that's
what utility libraries are for!)
  * it's fun to work on!

Although I'm not interested in being a committer on
any of the other proposed library sub-subprojects at
this time, I'd be happy to help out with the "Library
Infrastructure" sub-subproject, if the goal is a
Taglibs-like organization for the project and the
site.

- Morgan


--- "Craig R. McClanahan"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote:
> 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > If someone chooses to duplicate a piece of code,
> maybe the problem is with
> > > the way the code is written and shared.
> >
> > I think in some cases, its bacause people aren't
> aware that the stuff
> > exists.  Go through the Jakarta project sites, and
> find the number of
> > places that offer a separate, clean  tool
> that supports .
> > (Choose your tool and it's expected
> functionality).
> >
> 
> One small proto-model of "shared code" code
> components already exists within the
> Jakarta community, and might serve as a starting
> point for discussions -- the
> Jakarta Taglibs project, which is focused on
> creating reuseable JSP custom tag
> libraries.  The encouraged sharing is in this case
> at the end developer's
> application level, rather than within the Jakarta
> community itself, but some
> practices we created there might be useful models to
> look at.
> 
> Basically, developers on Taglibs agree to the
> following conventions and
> policies:
> 
> * No particular concern about overlaps of
> functionality -
>   different applications care about different
> features and
>   might appreciate alternative approaches.
> 
> * Committers essentially take ownership of the
> pieces
>   they care about, and agree to offer at least some
> level
>   of ongoing support.
> 
> * Organize their tag library directories according
> to standard
>   conventions (source, example app, documentation)
> and
>   package naming hierarchies that quickly become
> familiar
>   to library users.
> 
> * Construct semi-autonomous releases of individual
> tag libraries,
>   plus a convenient way to go grab them all.  Formal
> versioning
>   hasn't been an issue yet because the whole thing
> is pretty new,
>   but that will need to be addressed.
> 
> * Make information (essentially, the documenation
> associated
>   with each tag library) available online and
> accessible.  Having
>   one or more  modules in a shared library
> doesn't help
>   any more than the current situation, if I don't
> know about them
>   or cannot find anything out about them.
> 
> It would seem reasonable to adopt some set of
> conventions like this for the
> sorts of code modules we're discussing here.  That
> way, people whose itch is
> creating shareable modules have a place to showcase
> their wares, and people who
> would rather reuse than write have a place to
> "shop".
> 
> As long as you avoid a rule that there will be only
> one kind of  in the
> library, that should avoid most of the potential
> conflict issues.
> 
> In order to make this work, someone(s) needs to step
> up and organize the basic
> infrastructure, but after that it can be fairly
> self-sustaining.  (And maybe Sam
> can extend Gump to see which individual modules are
> being used in which projects
> -- having your shared code selected by some other
> project is a pretty good vote
> on it's quality, plus an indication of who you
> should talk to before changing
> APIs ;-).
> 
> 
> >
> > geir
> >
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
>
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Re: [POLL] Re: Code Sharing Concepts

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- "Craig R. McClanahan"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote:

[snip]

> > And back to the issue, that is kinda my point : if
> you have a group of
> > developers committed to producing a top quality db
> connection pool for
> > general use, it's not clear that there is much one
> could do to enforce
> > API stability in an external way that makes sense.
>  At some point, you
> > have to trust someone involved with the project...
> >
> 
> My personal preferences in this regard are fairly
> simple -- publish APIs (or use
> existing ones where there are reasonable standards)
> that you promise reasonably
> stable contracts for, and innovate on the
> implementation(s) inside those APIs.
> When changes ultimately do occur, they should be
> designed to minimize the pain
> of adapting (through techniques like providing
> convenience base classes that
> most alternative implementations would have started
> from).
> 
> For a connection pool in particular, the relavant
> API (for my needs, at least)
> is javax.sql.DataSource -- I want to be able to plug
> in *any* connection pool
> that conforms to that interface and use it. 
> Turbine's pool (still) does not do
> this -- and that makes perfect sense, because it
> existed before the DataSource
> API was standardized.  Changing Turbine's pool to
> conform to this would break
> the contracts for all existing Turbine apps that use
> it, which would not be a
> Good Thing.
> 
> But in the mean time, without a wrapper around it 
> -- I'm about 75% done with
> this, but unfortunately the wrapper will have to be
> bigger than the entire code
> for the Struts connection pool :-( -- the Turbine
> connection pool is not useful
> to me.  Whether it is in a shared repository or not
> makes no difference.

Supporting DataSources seems like a prerequisite of a
current database-pooling mechanism, but it would be
very useful to also support a pooling pseudo-driver. 
Otherwise, DriverManager-based clients to the database
pool (which may even include non-Jakarta projects)
will be required to reach into their code to use the
pool.  Pseudo-drivers are a very elegant way to
prevent that.

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Re: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

I think we've pretty much worn out this thread.  With
regard to database pools, the options seem to be:

1) Everybody does their own thing.
2) Everybody uses the Turbine pooling.
3) Everybody uses the Struts pooling.
4) We create a new utilities subproject, with database
pooling is a sub-subproject, and everybody uses that. 
The pool itself is a variant of either the Turbine or
the Struts pool.

My preference is option 4.

- Morgan

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Re: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 2/7/01 10:56 AM, "Morgan Delagrange"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > From their home pages, you wouldn't
> > even know that they featured database pooling.
> 
> Absolute bullsh*t.
> 
> The Turbine homepage *clearly* states:
> 
> "The point of Turbine is to collect that code into
> one location and make it
> easy to create re-usable components (such as
> ParameterParsing, Database
> Connection Pools, Job Scheduling, GlobalCaches,
> integration with other tools
> such as Castor, Velocity, Webmacro, etc...) all
> under a license (Apache)
> that allows you to create useful websites for your
> customers without
> worrying about viral code. Turbine is not the end
> all answer, but it sure is
> a nice way to make your development life easier."

My mistake, although stating that you have a database
connection pool component does not imply that it is
applicable outside of Turbine.

> The #2 item on the left side navigation on every
> single Turbine page is the
> "features" document...
> 
> <http://java.apache.org/turbine/features.html>
> 
> "Singleton based Database Connection Pool (JDBC)
> with built in support for
> all of the major databases"

Same issue here as above.  Pretend that I'm not
steeped in Turbine lore.  How am I to know that I can
use this elsewhere?

> I'm sorry, but I'm tired of people claiming
> ignorance when there is clear
> documentation to the contrary. I'm also tired of
> other projects refusing to
> work with Turbine when Turbine has clearly been the
> leader in this area for
> over 2 years now.
> 
> I also want to point out that Connection pools are
> more than just Connection
> pools, they also store information *about* the
> specific type of database
> that you are connecting to such as what type of SQL
> must be used to retrieve
> the last inserted id. This is something that Turbine
> depends on and I would
> make as a requirement that these features are
> available.
> 
> Now, feel free to create yet another project to
> house this Connection
> Pooling code, but I *refuse* to work with that
> project until I see others
> doing so first.

I'm thrown off by your charter:

  Turbine is a servlet based framework that 
  allows experienced Java developers to quickly 
  build secure web applications.

If I'm building a project that is not a web
application, why would I even investigate the features
of Turbine?  Let's review the best connection pooling
mechanism (maybe Turbine, maybe Struts or some
spinoff) and create a generic utilities project to
house it.  It's lame to have to include all the
Turbine classes just to get at something as low-level
as database pooling.

- M

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RE: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

r.  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Velocity : it's not just a good idea. It should be
> the law.
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> 
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RE: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

gt; 
> >> But, is that a bad thing?
> >
> >It's too specific.  See next comment.
> >
> >> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
> >> with servlets in part
> >> 
> >> I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately
> >> Java Servlet-related
> >> software.
> >
> >I didn't say there weren't servlet-related
> components
> >in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts
> >than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that
> >Struts is not entirely in-scope.  Much of Struts
> deals
> >with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks
> for
> >XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  Since
> >these are not specifically servlet-related, they
> would
> >have to be removed from the project.
> >
> >I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant
> >Java project, I'm just saying that a
> Servlet-oriented
> >charter is too inflexible.  I'd rather see a
> charter
> >that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and
> I
> >think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's
> >another argument).
> >
> >- Morgan
> >
> >
> >=
> >Morgan Delagrange
> >Britannica.com
> >
> >__
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>
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> 
> Ceki Gülcü   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred)
> av. de Rumine 5  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> CH-1005 Lausanne  
> SwitzerlandTel: ++41 21 351 23 15
> 
> 
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RE: What is Jakarta?

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote:
> >Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that
> definition.  
> 
> I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or
> not. It is evident
> that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the
> Jakarta Project. As
> it stands, the current mission given on the Web site
> is technically
> incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious
> that the ASF will
> require a board resolution to put things right. 

>From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that he'd
rather expand the scope than start pruning
subprojects.

> >If you make the definition of Jakarta this
> restrictive
> 
> Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted.
> The contract between
> the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is
> "charged with the
> creation and maintenance of open-source Java
> Servlet-related software
> for distribution at no charge to the public." 

Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of
scope according to the current charter.

> As you pointed out,  the Jakarta PMC has exceed its
> original charter.
> The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and
> presented two
> alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More
> PMCs. 
> 
> Some people seem to like the idea of a broader
> charter. Other people
> have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a
> followup to Roy's
> suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering
> Java-Apache for the
> out-of-scope projects makes any sense. 

Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the
java.apache.org domain.  The current Jakarta site
states:

  The older Java Apache Project will have its 
  projects merged into the Jakarta Project 
  in the near future (no set date). For more 
  information please see the announcement on that
  website. 

If this is still the case, fine.  If not, we need a
new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org
needs to go away.

> >Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta
> project to Servlet-based
> >technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very
> short:
> 
> But, is that a bad thing?

It's too specific.  See next comment.

> >projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal
> with servlets in part
> 
> I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately
> Java Servlet-related
> software.

I didn't say there weren't servlet-related components
in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts
than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that
Struts is not entirely in-scope.  Much of Struts deals
with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks for
XML parsing and database pooling, correct?  Since
these are not specifically servlet-related, they would
have to be removed from the project.

I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant
Java project, I'm just saying that a Servlet-oriented
charter is too inflexible.  I'd rather see a charter
that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and I
think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's
another argument).

- Morgan


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