Re: Now about JNDI
Also, there is a load of simple (mostly in-memory) open source JNDI implementations. Several others with Apache compatible licenses too. If you want to make something new, that's not it either. Good luck, Paulo Noel J. Bergman wrote: What about JNDI libs? Is it been built as part of Geronimo, or is there a single project to keep it´s developement? See http://incubator.apache.org/directory/ --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
Same here. (although I am glad I am not as popular as you! 300???!!!) I was getting afraid that some servers would just start blocking my email from this address... but this got to such a dimension that I am sure all sysadmins must know how it works by now. There was a time I thought I was really somehow infected, but I am offline during weekends and I just get too much warnings from antivirus email filters on Monday. So, people: just get your machine offline for a while if you use Outlook and have this kind of doubt. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: sexta-feira, 27 de Junho de 2003 17:48 To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses That is exactly what happens with this particular worm. If your address is in the address book of someone who gets infected, not only do *you* start to receive the messages, messages with forged from headers with your name on them also go out. Then, the volume of messages is made worse by all of those helpful spam filters that catch the fact that the virus is included, and return a notification to the (forged) sender. Obscuring email addresses in the archives would have zero impact on this particular problem. Craig (just cleaned out about 300 of these from this morning's mail) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Linux Magazine article
Jon's predictions never became truth... ...probably because J2EE is not interesting enough! =;o) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken;apache.org] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:09 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article ... Some history info: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-frameworkm=97567909732611w=2 -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
yeah. And it's got a template language called Smarty which is *way* better than velocity!!! From the problems we are having with Smarty, it does not seem good enough even for a Alpha release. =:oP Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Leo Simons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:04 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost??? Is that site generated by maven ? ;)) Mvgr, Martin Anakia I hate to admit it here, but the output is .html files which are then processed through PHP. I'm going to be moving away from even using Anakia and just using PHP. PHP is terribly fugly and encourages the worst code design ever, but you can get a lot more done with it in a short amount of time and there is no way in hell I would ever lower myself to using JSP. =) yeah. And it's got a template language called Smarty which is *way* better than velocity!!! :P - Leo, who figured there was another flamefest when he saw all those e-mails and is now eagerly waiting for a picture of a crossdressing jon... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
ROTFL BTW, nice touch that photo! =;o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:13 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost??? Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] we should be getting some more powerful mail list servers, just in case. Not needed. Trust me. Pier (the mail master) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html With a file name like this, I miss a pink hearts background. Does anyone have one of those to contribute? Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 9:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost??? on 7/17/02 11:21 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ROTFL BTW, nice touch that photo! =;o) Have fun, Paulo http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html Amazing what a symlink can do. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
And even better is there is a revenge: - Lots of pictures! =:o) Paulo -Original Message- From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:58 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost??? Tool late ;) We want to see that picture.. Mvgr, Martin On Thu, 2002-07-18 at 01:54, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 7/17/02 4:30 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pier, I have pictures of you that I can blackmail you with as well...=) Okokokok :) I'll just shut up now! :) I swear I'm not going to do that anymore! :) :) :) :) Pier -- [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
PHP is terribly fugly and encourages the worst code design ever, but you can get a lot more done with it in a short amount of time and there is no way in hell I would ever lower myself to using JSP. Same here. I am starting to have stuff that must be done in PHP too and those are exactly my thoughts. But I still make weird stuff faster with my Java thing which includes using Velocity + Pnuts. (Pnuts is a Java based scripting language that can compile to Java bytecode on the fly: http://javacenter.sun.co.jp/pnuts/ ) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost??? on 7/17/02 3:43 PM, Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that site generated by maven ? ;)) Mvgr, Martin Anakia I hate to admit it here, but the output is .html files which are then processed through PHP. I'm going to be moving away from even using Anakia and just using PHP. PHP is terribly fugly and encourages the worst code design ever, but you can get a lot more done with it in a short amount of time and there is no way in hell I would ever lower myself to using JSP. =) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002
+1 Paulo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:42 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002 On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Peter Donald wrote: I would actually prefer no peer review (or at least no binding peer review). If people want to have a say what goes into it then they should get off their butts and write something for it ;) +1 Costin I am sure that the writers will be at responsible enough (and if not we can yank their privlidges to post it to announcement list) At 04:19 PM 6/5/2002 +0100, you wrote: Rob Oxspring [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jakarta Newsletter == Issue: 0 Date: May 2002 Great job... I'd like to propose the following: peer review on this mailing list, vote request, and then send it off on announcements... This can be done every month if Rob is willing to keep up with the pace of my flamewars. Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002
GREAT job Rob. I like the level of detail very much. For me it should be no less detailed: if it is to save me the hassle of following a list, the newsletter MUST have some detail. I am not expecting a management digest - I am a developer and not a manager. I am talking in the first person but I am guessing that we do not have many of those managers that like to avoid the technical details around. The mail archive URLs are also very nice. Regards, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Rob Oxspring [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:41 AM To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002 Thanks Erik, I think its gonna take a few of us keeping it high priority to get the ball rolling properly - it took me long enough to get around to this one (though whats 6 months between software engineers) - i.e. although a calendar alarm has been set for next month, prods and reminders are definitely appreciated :) You are probably right re the level of detail - its partially just my style showing through but also because I thought it'd look a bit empty with just general, ant and commons on there. I think a lot of this sort of thing will vary with the style of the individual column authors and the level of activity within each project, IMHO this variation should make it a more interesting read and should be encouraged - at least for the first few months while we don't know what's best. Rob -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 5 June 2002 23:45 To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002 Rob, Very nice. I've been keeping this idea high on my to-do list and I'm glad to see you finally get to it. This is more detailed than future ones probably should be, and that would likely be the case when other projects get incorporated anyway. Great job, and you can count on me assisting you with this in any way possible in the future. Erik - Original Message - From: Rob Oxspring [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:57 AM Subject: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002 Jakarta Newsletter == Issue: 0 Date: May 2002 A Jakarta newsletter has been mentioned a few times on the general list and so I figured it was high time that one was produced. The discussions previously seemed to settle on a monthly affair with a a regular change of editorship. The aim is that for the future, different people will take over different sections for a limited period so that nobody gets bogged down with the chore unless they want to - some lists may have a series of volunteers step up, other projects may choose to add newsletter editing as a regular responsibility for each of their active committers. Hopefully this will lead to a dynamic monthly newsletter that can be sent out on the announcement list (or a new newsletter one) and try to keep people informed of what all the projects are up to without having to monitor all the projects This issue is entirely edited my myself rather than a set of developers and as a direct result is limited to the dev lists I monitor properly. With luck others will help out future issues providing a varied style and more complete content. Rob Oxspring General === This month saw the first ever veto of a new committer in the Tomcat subproject. [1] The resulting threads from this discussed how much a person should have to do before being given committer rights [2] and what they should have had to do. This in turn lead to a proposed rethink of the current rights and roles at Jakarta - can non-coders be committers? should people be given voting rights without CVS access? - should they be given CVS access without the hassle of voting rights? The answers seemed to be probably, possibly and probably not respectively [3] On a similar note, there was a brief look at how best to welcome and nurture volunteers to keep Jakarta growing and progressing [4] An announcement of a new in house mail archive using EyeBrowse [5] lead to a few threads regarding the infrastructure available at Jakarta. The main focus was on whether to switch from Bugzilla to Scarab [6,7] although Subversion was also mentioned with anticipation. There was also discussion of the best way to measure project activity and how useful such a metric would be [8]. Related to the infrastructure and to project activity, Maven was advocated by Jon Scott Stevens as a build system we should all be using. The ensuing flame war included a lot of Centipede vs Maven, XSL vs Velocity, and other Ego clashes. The result seems
RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...
Despite all the arguments I still can NOT see why it should be more complicated than this (Sam + Jon definitions). Probably the system is already as good as it can get. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities... ... A developer can suggest a change. A committer can make it happen. - Sam Ruby Anyone can suggest a change. A developer can submit a patch. A committer can make it happen. ;-) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
Do you want a list of other funny channels? =;o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:19 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. Sorry, didn't intend to throw the whole mail at you. I haven't been around as long as you (probably a little over a year), but this is one of my favorite lists. It's far more entertaining than television :-) Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 10:00 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. Hey Jeff, I can agree with all you say but I don't understand why you throw this on my direction. I have been defending the existence of competing projects since the Tomcat 3.3 versus Tomcat 4 wars until my most recent posts at the commons-dev list. Maybe you do not follow the same lists I do. Maybe not for long enough. If you read Jon's postings along this thread, you will also be better informed about whom has a thin skin problem. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:59 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly to those that agree with him. For the record, I've even committed the cardinal sin of creating a MVC webapp framework which is not Turbine (http://mav.sourceforge.net), and Jon is still pretty friendly to me :-) You guys all need to lighten up. It's not like this is a workplace where everyone is competing for promotions or something. How this social game plays out isn't going to affect your paycheck or the people who hang out with you or whether or not you're going to get laid this weekend. A fair amount of banter is healthy in any community. Poking fun at each other, lighthearted insults, competition, and yes conflict are a standard part of any sitcom production. Sure, there's a time for we all love each other mushy-type stuff but if it was like that all the time it would get boring really damn fast. It is my observation that Apache works because of thick skins, not because of peace, love, and happiness vibes. There's nothing wrong with a limited number of competing projects under one roof. It's probably even a good idea. It's not like Maven and Centipede are competing implementations of the same API - this is pretty much a research field, and it's impossible to categorically predict at this point whether it is better to extend or generate the Gump descriptors, or to use XSLT or DVSL, etc. Until the science becomes engineering, this mad driving need (among some) to merge merge merge is a pathology. Let it be. Use the software you like. Write the software you like. Berate people over the truly important things, like choice of text editor :-) Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ed is the *standard* text editor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
Hey Jeff, I can agree with all you say but I don't understand why you throw this on my direction. I have been defending the existence of competing projects since the Tomcat 3.3 versus Tomcat 4 wars until my most recent posts at the commons-dev list. Maybe you do not follow the same lists I do. Maybe not for long enough. If you read Jon's postings along this thread, you will also be better informed about whom has a thin skin problem. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:59 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly to those that agree with him. For the record, I've even committed the cardinal sin of creating a MVC webapp framework which is not Turbine (http://mav.sourceforge.net), and Jon is still pretty friendly to me :-) You guys all need to lighten up. It's not like this is a workplace where everyone is competing for promotions or something. How this social game plays out isn't going to affect your paycheck or the people who hang out with you or whether or not you're going to get laid this weekend. A fair amount of banter is healthy in any community. Poking fun at each other, lighthearted insults, competition, and yes conflict are a standard part of any sitcom production. Sure, there's a time for we all love each other mushy-type stuff but if it was like that all the time it would get boring really damn fast. It is my observation that Apache works because of thick skins, not because of peace, love, and happiness vibes. There's nothing wrong with a limited number of competing projects under one roof. It's probably even a good idea. It's not like Maven and Centipede are competing implementations of the same API - this is pretty much a research field, and it's impossible to categorically predict at this point whether it is better to extend or generate the Gump descriptors, or to use XSLT or DVSL, etc. Until the science becomes engineering, this mad driving need (among some) to merge merge merge is a pathology. Let it be. Use the software you like. Write the software you like. Berate people over the truly important things, like choice of text editor :-) Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ed is the *standard* text editor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Maven is growing
It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to say Amen to everything he says and the way he says it. There must be a balance somewhere. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose this alternative: http://www.krysalis.org/jon/ ;-) Yep - that is the one I was going to find. I think it's right up there with the other one to help people come to terms with Jon... ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Maven is growing
Andy, I generally agree with what says in the page you pointed to. When I disagree with what Jon says I push back and when I agree I am not afraid of saying so. If you read my recent postings here you will notice I generally agree with Jon about the Velocity vs. XSLT issue. OTOH I tend to disagree on stopping some project because there is already a similar one. And now we both think Maven is a good thing, although similar projects already existed. I don't feel I go after Jon like a mad dog. I just feel that I am not afraid of disagreeing with him. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:31 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: Maven is growing Ehh, just don't take it seriously when you go after him like a mad dog. I find myself balancing between saying amen to everything he says and going after him like a mad dog. Perhaps I over did it this time...oh well. always have a real angle... collaboration and integration rulez: http://www.krysalis.org/alt/cents/index.html ^ created by the maven module (aka cent) for centipede. you gotta love that. I'll be joining the maven list for a short while to get a few bugs in maven fixed (absolute links being interpreted as relative). isn't that delicious? -Andy PS Centipede docs are well on there way to being up to snuff. On Sat, 2002-05-04 at 13:08, Paulo Gaspar wrote: It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to say Amen to everything he says and the way he says it. There must be a balance somewhere. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose this alternative: http://www.krysalis.org/jon/ ;-) Yep - that is the one I was going to find. I think it's right up there with the other one to help people come to terms with Jon... ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Maven is growing
And there is. Find it. geir Maybe I did. But it is NOT your balance - it is mine. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:28 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Maven is growing On 5/4/02 1:08 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to say Amen to everything he says and the way he says it. There must be a balance somewhere. And there is. Find it. geir Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose this alternative: http://www.krysalis.org/jon/ ;-) Yep - that is the one I was going to find. I think it's right up there with the other one to help people come to terms with Jon... ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Maven is growing
Ok. I am glad you understood it, Paulo -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 8:40 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Maven is growing On 5/4/02 2:03 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And there is. Find it. geir Maybe I did. But it is NOT your balance - it is mine. We each do things our own way. Maybe we can put this thread to bed? geir Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:28 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Maven is growing On 5/4/02 1:08 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to say Amen to everything he says and the way he says it. There must be a balance somewhere. And there is. Find it. geir Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose this alternative: http://www.krysalis.org/jon/ ;-) Yep - that is the one I was going to find. I think it's right up there with the other one to help people come to terms with Jon... ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr. Research Development, Adeptra Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-203-247-1713 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates! Sorry Steven, I know well both XSLT and Velocity and Velocity sure is more productive. Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly to those that agree with him. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Steven Noels [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:34 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. Jon wrote: People -- Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar. Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped). Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu! :-) Cool. I like being funny :-) Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates! /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are the standards. Costin, Being you quite a brilliant guy, I don't understand two troubles you seem to have: 1) Getting too upset about what Jon says (Jon says a lot of crap); 2) Blindly accepting a standard just because someone says it is a standard. A standard only stands if you accept it. Example: almost no one really knows anymore what the Standard Pascal programming language was. Most people that know Pascal, know Turbo-Pascal or (now) Delphi. In the last 10 years, most commercial Pascal compilers claimed to be Turbo Pascal compatible and not ISO or ANSI or whatever is the Pascal standard's name. These are the standards that matter: those chosen by their users an not by some committee. XSLT as a template mechanism is a piece of crap. I tried several alternatives and I got better productivity with a much smoother learning curve with almost all of them. The point is that someone should not have to be a rocket scientist just to build a damn template. Since designers... - Generally (all I know) hate XSLT and love Velocity; - Are completely dependent on me with XSLT but are almost completely independent maintaining Velocity templates; - Are much better designing web pages than me... ... and since Velocity can do all that is needed with a fraction of the trouble one gets from XSLT, there must be something wrong with this XSLT standard. Maybe XSLT is good for something else. Not HTML templates. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:27 PM To: Jon Scott Stevens ... I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are the standards. ... Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
I got proven wrong from the point of view that enough people wanted T3 to survive. I got proven right that T3 distracted a limited set of resources (ie: people) from T4. Uau! You already got HALF way. You just still don't understand that T4 probably has more resources thanks to T3 staying at Jakarta - with the collaboration that is going on. If T3 had been banned from Jakarta, maybe most of those that are collaborating would have gone elsewhere with T3. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:21 PM on 5/2/02 12:23 PM, GOMEZ Henri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like that. You hypocrite. Again and again, the same bullshits. Jon, take a closer look into tomcat-dev and you'll see that projects could works together, using others ways in JTC, coyote, jk/jk2, are the proof that tomcat developpers from 4.x and 3.3.x could works together... Sure, the developers are working together on *some* stuff, but the core products they are not and my original Tomcat arguments were that it was lame to have two different containers. I got proven wrong from the point of view that enough people wanted T3 to survive. I got proven right that T3 distracted a limited set of resources (ie: people) from T4. Centipede is to Tomcat 3 as Maven is to Tomcat 4. You can't force the developers of T3 to work on T4. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
People who are clearly without a clue. Hypocrites. But then it seems that any one that disagrees with you gets included in one (or both) of the above categories. And you often don't recognize these ones even if they bite you: Real suggestions for improvement. Intelligent discussion. Several did already bite during this thread. Did you notice them? Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: You guys are so funny. on 5/2/02 4:57 PM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not with it enough to be worthy of being listened to. Craig I listen to the following: Code. Patches. Real suggestions for improvement. Intelligent discussion. I don't listen to the following: Flame wars about technologies used. Whiny people who can't learn a new technology. Whiny people who only use 'standards'. People who are clearly without a clue. Hypocrites. My original posting was simply trying to encourage people to adopt Maven because I think it is a cool technology that can save hundreds of hours of development time and headaches. It can help unify us to survive the perceived M$ .Net invasion. It can help us gain more popularity among our users because our tools are easy to build and install. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
So, Google uses Tomcat and Apache SOAP...
http://www.beblogging.com/blog/20020417-221452 Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem - after all there really is a problem
Ok, I was convinced by Pier too soon. There really is a problem since the 553 error comes from the Apache server. Our (KRANKIKOM) server just reported that error back to me. So, some SPAM filter does not let me answer too many webmaster emails in a short time. =:o/ Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:40 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem LOL! (Yeah, laughing about silly me!) Thanks Pier, Paulo -Original Message- From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:15 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem Not something we can take care of It's krankikom.de's problem... :) (look the From header below! :) Pier Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My mails (as webmaster) were filtered as spam. Something must be missing at that spam filter. This way it is hard to play webmaster. Error email follows Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable The original message was received at Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:04:35 +0200 from firewalled-137.krankikom.de [194.77.169.137] (may be forged) - The following addresses had permanent fatal errors - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Transcript of session follows - ... while talking to jakarta.apache.org.: DATA 553 Spam or junk mail threshold exceeded. See http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1) 554 [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Service unavailable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem - after all therereally is a problem
Ok, I leave it in your capable hands! Thanks, Paulo -Original Message- From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 6:59 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem - after all therereally is a problem It is actually a problem on Daedalus, then... Moving discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] :) Pier Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, I was convinced by Pier too soon. There really is a problem since the 553 error comes from the Apache server. Our (KRANKIKOM) server just reported that error back to me. So, some SPAM filter does not let me answer too many webmaster emails in a short time. =:o/ Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:40 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem LOL! (Yeah, laughing about silly me!) Thanks Pier, Paulo -Original Message- From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:15 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem Not something we can take care of It's krankikom.de's problem... :) (look the From header below! :) Pier Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My mails (as webmaster) were filtered as spam. Something must be missing at that spam filter. This way it is hard to play webmaster. Error email follows Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable The original message was received at Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:04:35 +0200 from firewalled-137.krankikom.de [194.77.169.137] (may be forged) - The following addresses had permanent fatal errors - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Transcript of session follows - ... while talking to jakarta.apache.org.: DATA 553 Spam or junk mail threshold exceeded. See http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1) 554 [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Service unavailable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem
LOL! (Yeah, laughing about silly me!) Thanks Pier, Paulo -Original Message- From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:15 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem Not something we can take care of It's krankikom.de's problem... :) (look the From header below! :) Pier Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My mails (as webmaster) were filtered as spam. Something must be missing at that spam filter. This way it is hard to play webmaster. Error email follows Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable The original message was received at Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:04:35 +0200 from firewalled-137.krankikom.de [194.77.169.137] (may be forged) - The following addresses had permanent fatal errors - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Transcript of session follows - ... while talking to jakarta.apache.org.: DATA 553 Spam or junk mail threshold exceeded. See http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1) 554 [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Service unavailable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: Typo in webpage title
Could someone fix this little thing? The typo is still there. He is talking about the title tag value. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Ernst de Haan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 8:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Typo in webpage title Hi, There's a small typo in the title of http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/news.html The page is titled: The Jakarta Site - New and Status ^ 's' missing :) Regards, Ernst -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Ant won JavaWorld Editor's Award
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/ Yeah! Maven looks too cool! =:oD Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ant won JavaWorld Editor's Award on 4/12/02 8:58 PM, Jim Azeltine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just got done using Ant to create the coolest thing I have ever seen. It is going to allow developers (who don't know that much about Java), who are using tools to autogenerate Java code to compile the code and add it to a common jar, ftp the jar (including backing up), set the file permissions, and notifying all of the developer group via email all with one command. Too cool! James Azeltine Indus International http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/ -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] Switching development to C#
Do you have anything against Fortran or Cobol? There will be .Net implementations for those, you know? And we could leverage the power of all those legacy academic and enterprise programmers. (I bet there are a lot of Cobol guys getting a lot of free time on their hands after the Y2K mess.) Paulo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:10 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [VOTE] Switching development to C# On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Marc wrote: Having become convinced by Andy that C# and .NET are the wave of the future, I'm proposing that we switch poi development to C#. To the Jakarta community at large: will this affect our status as a Jakarta project? I mean, I can see where a lot of projects are eventually going to follow this same path ... I'm ok with using .NET, but I think you should use BASIC as language, not C#. .NET is language independent, and other jakarta projects already switched to BASIC. Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Comments on the commons-logging API
Ceki, What about making clear that commons-logging is only supposed to be used by other components so that the application developer picks the logging API that suits him best? Do you really believe that all application developers will use Log4J? Or do you want to force them into doing that? Do you have any doubt that lots of companies will follow the policy of using the JDK 1.4 Logging API just because it is the one that comes with Java? Do you really think that the persons imposing such decision will care about what is good and what is bad? And then the ones getting the mess will be the developers and the commons-logging will help those. And will also help them to use the components/libs that use it. This sounds like just another of your pro-log4j-anti-anything-else campaigns, containing the usual amount of FUD of any blind campaign. A blind campaign is one where the single motivation of the campaigner is defending some interest/belief against all others... without really trying to SEE or get precise information on what those others really are. The blindness towards the other alternatives tends to grow a considerable amount of misinformation on the blind campaigner and, then, he vigorously spreads it - hence the resulting spread of FUD. You seem to be following a pattern here, since you are doing just the same as you usually do against LogKit, including the misinformation bit. Although both you and Peter turn a bit silly when under the influence of another-logger-war, I always notice that you know much less about LogKit than Peter knows about log4j. (And yes, I know both well enough to clearly notice that). It is sad that you show to be more interested on destroying the competition than on learning from it. Well, at least you did not accuse the commons-logging guys from plagiarism just yet, as you did about the LogKit guys. Ceki, I know you are quite smart, constructive and helpful and I respect you for that. But when you get in these logging wars, you don't seem to be the same person. You could at least try to be well informed and inform well when you talk about other logging APIs. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:14 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API At 15:30 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote: I am pro-Log4J. I wish I lived in that Log4J-only world (until/unless something better came along). Generally, commons-logging neither encourages nor discourages use of Log4J. However, I would argue that it _does_ encourage Log4J a bit by not forcing a logging implementation war. True. It does encourage it, but only initially. On the long run, however, people will run into problems with their logging (as is happening now). They will say this commons-logging+log4j stuff is too complicated, we'll switch to JDK 1.4 logging, at least that does not have any CLASSPATH problems. The fact is, JDK 1.4 logging in particular is going to become more and more common over time, and unless someone can summon forth a magic recantation of that JSR, then a component-level interface with popular loggers is necessary. Otherwise you have to pick, which only services us at the expense of those who use other logger implementations. Possible but I would not be that sure. We will have very strong new features in log4j 1.3 (the release after 1.2) which will leave JDK 1.4 logging even further behind. Just as importantly, log4j documentation is going to get a massive boost with the upcoming log4j book. Sun's me-too strategy is bound to fail. The question is whether the bigger jakarta community is going to help us defeat JSR47 or stand in the way. -- Ceki My link of the month: http://java.sun.com/aboutJava/standardization/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: news@jakarta
... [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I sure like this one! =:o) Paulo -Original Message- From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 11:28 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: news@jakarta Or.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. leave those notes you're not sure if anyone reads or not. -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:53 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: news@jakarta On 3/7/02 4:48 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or call it usefull-tidbits or something :-), gossip@, watercooler@, the-bar@, coffeshop@, wathever ;-) Something clearly meant for out of scope things. How about 'ot@' -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.
Indeed, a very nice group. =:o) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 3:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot. Congratulations to the new PMC members! We couldn't ask for a more qualified group. :) - Morgan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Thanks for voting. We received 75 valid ballot forms (from 219 committers). There where 462 votes casted on nominees and 63 abstaining votes (i.e. with a total of 7x75=525 votes). None of the received ballot forms where rejected. No issues where found during the verification of the email sender/messages. The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order): Stefan Bodewig Craig McClanahan Diane Holt Conor MacNeill Geir Magnusson Jr. Costin Monolache Sam Ruby The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF board meeting. Should you have issue with those elections or its procedure then please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your vote counters: Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem. Thanks, Dw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPHp8QjGmPZbsFAuBAQHXnAP+Jlfa5oCvFumrlYC07P27FZUL7SkJzML6 OlvkCShXJBnsvN5glDkKhzPPLVDZMSuPEXRusT7B08hxoqyzLWhe9AXV2QPx3gUI nju20ZfQhn8a9OiLKbUEa8i4kP7bd8jXmRHmyTyYrC22ZE7ejvyQni4uvm98S5W1 e1m8VWWhOds= =f3Ef -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge)
Actually, there is searching. See the Search Apache Sites link at: http://jakarta.apache.org/ Maybe we need a nice textbox for searching at every page! (Hey, don't look at mee!) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: James Strachan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:35 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge) I think one thing this conversation seems to have highlighted is that there's plenty of good documentation all over the apache sites, we could just do with some more sitemap / indexing / searching features to be able to find stuff. (quickly ducking before people think I'm volunteering). James - Original Message - From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:31 PM Subject: RE: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge) Ok, thanks a lot, Marc and Jon. Included are some links from xml.apache.org, luckily they resemble Jakarta's documents a lot. I know nothing about other Apache projects; I started adding links from httpd.apache.org like crazy, but then realized that the TOC was losing focus exponentially. Probably, someone else should tackle this problem. Now, including the valuable contributions of Marc and Jon, the annotated Apache manual TOC would look like this. 1.- Introduction Who we are, why are we doing this. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html http://xml.apache.org/whoweare.html http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html 2.- Project proposal Proposal stage, committers needed, community. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/getinvolved.html http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html 3.- Apache rules Who gets to vote what. Voting rules, valid votes, +1/+0/0/-0/-1. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html http://xml.apache.org/roles.html http://xml.apache.org/decisions.html http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml-admin/charter.txt 4.- Code organization and repositories Naming of packages, repositories, what to find in them. Who touches what. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/dirlayout.html http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html http://jakarta.apache.org/site/agreement.html 5.- Code quality Add copyright notice, add authors. Format your code but not others'. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/agreement.html http://xml.apache.org/source.html 6.- Testing Adding test cases. Solving bugs, errors, showstoppers. Security problems. http://httpd.apache.org/security_report.html 7.- Build system Use Ant, use Ant, use Ant. Use Gump. Use Scarab. Not done yet. 8.- Dependencies What jar's to use and what to avoid. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jars.html 9.- Documentation Where to look for it. What to expect, what not to expect. Not done yet. 10.- Releases When to release, what to release. Release process. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html 11.- Support Whom you should ask, what you should figure out yourself. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html http://xml.apache.org/mail.html 12.- Licensing and guarantee Why you should use Apache license, and what's wrong with other licenses. What you can do with Apache products. Giving credit. All that implied warranty things. http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html http://xml.apache.org/dist/LICENSE.txt -Mensaje original- De: Marc Saegesser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: miércoles 20 de febrero de 2002 20:19 Para: Jakarta General List Asunto: RE: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge) Alex, That's a really good start. My only comment right now is to point out that some of the topics in this list are Jakarta specific and Apache is much bigger than Jakarta. It would be cool if a manual such as this covered how other Apache projects handle similar tasks. I'd also include a chapter on Apache and Jakarta rules. For example, voting rules, what constitutes a valid vote, what are the voting types and when they apply, what are meanings of +1/+0/0/-0/-1 in the various voting types. A collection of release instructions for various projects might also be useful. When I was the release manager for Tomcat 3.2.x I got some initial help from Craig, but after that I had to invent most of the process myself (and I'll be the first admit that I didn't document that process :-( ). I'm sure I think of more after giving it some more thought. Good start, though. Marc Saegesser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: grammer issue
-Original Message- From: Dave Palmer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 3:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: grammer issue Hello, Just thought I'd drop you a quick line to let you know that there is a slight grammer issue on the home page of the jakarta site: Please considerate and do your homework before asking our volunteers to donate additional time and energy to your project. I think you mean: Please be considerate... :) Keep up the excellent work! ./dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: distribute minimal jar
The common logging wrapper also looks familiar... ...from Velocity??? Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ylan Segal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 1:10 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: distribute minimal jar I have started a project (http://apricot.sourceforge.net) and use several jakarta projects (LogKit, Log4J, oro, velocity, xerces...). I took a look at your project. It looks just like jakarta's site. Why? Is it in anyway related? Ylan Segal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
Ok, now that I understand better how a PMC nomination works, it looks like I have to say something about me besides just saying that I accept - which I do. I work on software development for almost 15 years and I only started using Apache software less than 2 years ago. I got addicted very fast. As many of you probably noticed, I do not believe on quietly accepting the facts. I also believe on defending my interests without hurting others and I often spend too much effort defending what I consider fair. And I do it for selfish reasons - I am depending on loads of Jakarta software and I do not believe the Jakarta Project will survive unless we all win something. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
Yeahh! Costin tends to be too quiet sometimes. I hope he is reversing that trend because I learn something most of the times he talks. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 6:07 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'. Lol. Sellout ! You're joining the establishment now ! ;-) I think I'll vote for you :) Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
I second that nomination. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of jean-frederic clere Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To jvote or not to jvote
From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? If they all should, then a lot are missing! Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To jvote or not to jvote
Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To jvote or not to jvote
Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
Cool! That was what I understood but the tone of some remarks left me wondering. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection Just to be clear, I'm not leaving Jakarta entirely, you will still have to put up with my bullshit every now and then...I'm just not going to participate in the PMC politics any longer... -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: J2EE considered harmful
This is getting interesting and we have e lot of pieces for this kind of puzzle around Apache. Why must standards be ruled just by the BigCo's??? De facto standards happen when a product is really good. This reminds me how the then tiny dog Borland turned Turbo Pascal into the de facto standard Pascal language in a couple of years. All Pascal language related products wanted to be compatible with it and not with whatever was the standard Pascal. All the big dogs had to run away. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:54 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful From: Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Are you just talking about creating a new language, or what? What is your idea? I cannot tell. That's a good question, and ultimately one which would be determined by the constraints of the technology. Prototyping would probably involve using an existing language and platform, and maybe we would ultimately discover that it is possible to build a system like this on top of a JVM (or CLR). My suspicion is that it is not, and may be undesirable for legal reasons anyways. The later part of my diatribe was a hastily phrased way of approaching this subject: Unless you want to go back to the dark ages of C++, the future is shaping up to look like a choice between writing for the Sun platform or the Microsoft platform. This does not make me comfortable, especially considering that Sun's approach to Java so far has been *wholly* anathema to the principals of Open Source. At least Microsoft has submitted C# and the CLI to ECMA. Quoth Jon: *WAKE UP PEOPLE* I am tantalized by the idea of a third choice: the Apache platform. I propose a discussion of just what that might be. Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
Paul already talked about a couple ways of tuning the use of remote calls without having to do it on a case by case basis. However, the thumb rule is that: - Either you build the system to be scalable (which might make it a bit less efficient when having it working in a single machine when compared to a non scalable system); - Or you use some transparency mechanism and you tend to loose robustness/control when compared to a system that is aware of possible communications issues and tries to handle them. Some communications issues can be recovered from and some not. And sometimes the decision to try to recover or not depends on the kind of operation you are performing. And I also agree with Paul that the RemoteException is NOT a bit help. Do you believe on magic bullets that work everywhere? We keep trying to get as close to having them as possible but... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:19 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful So what if you need to move an object that is defined as local to be load balanced across machines? I think you're wrong on that one. If you have to define it as local you loose scalability by definition unless you accept the hardware vendor's edition of scalability (buy an E1 instead and junk your old machine ;-) ). On Fri, 2002-02-01 at 08:06, Paulo Gaspar wrote: I do not think so. Handling in a proper way situations that are specific to a remote call does not mean that the architecture of the app must be less scalable. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:03 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful Albeit at the expense of scalability On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 09:51, Paulo Gaspar wrote: I think that the key bit is: and it is a mistake to try to program as though a remote call had the same characteristics as a local one. Your app will always be more robust if you do NOT ignore the specific issues of a remote call. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:50 PM To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful Hi Tim. I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs as much as possible. But there's one thing I don't understand. -Mensaje original- De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation techniques would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, instead of requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But personally, I think RPC is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program as though a remote call had the same characteristics as a local one. Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was flawed. Un saludo, Alex. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
At least it seems that your are in for serious fun! Hard to imagine a better reason to quit the PMC. I hope you enjoy it and thanks for making things happen. All the best, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection Hey all, I just wanted to say that I'm not going to accept my Jakarta PMC nomination and do not want to be included in the voting for the next election. I have been involved with Java Apache/Jakarta since Sept 1996 and I think that it is time for me to move on from being politically responsible for this group. Honestly, I'm jaded and burned out on it all. That said, I recently signed a 10 year lease on a prime event space in downtown San Francisco and I am moving towards spending more time being a big time night club owner than working on Jakarta. More info: http://www.studioz.tv/ (p.s. that site is built with Anakia smile) I also just released Scarab 1.0b1 and am focused primarily on making Scarab the best issue tracking tool around. Expect to see more great developments on this project. It is by far, one of the best designed, largest and most complex pieces of software that I have ever had the pleasure of helping develop. It will be around for a very long time and will eventually put Bugzilla out of business. More info: http://scarab.tigris.org/ thanks, -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AltRMI chat (was: [OT] J2EE considered harmful)
Moving this to the Commons. Please reply only in the commons-dev list. Sorry Paul, I meant AspectJ. I do not understand the incompatibility between Dynamic proxies and BeanShell. What is it. Did you try pnuts? I already found a documented way to run a pnuts compiled class, although it demands the presence of some Runtime support classes. Anyway, with pnuts you can generate/compile code in memory. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Paul Hammant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:33 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [OT] J2EE considered harmful Paulo, Paul just answered to what I meant in a better way than I would be able to do. BTW Paul, you know JAspect and Dynamic Proxies don't you? Yes, BUT : I am not skilled enough in Jaspect, AspectJ, BCEL, JCFE to able able to use them for AltRMI's proxy generation. I know *exactly* what I need to do in Java so have ripped (with attribution) Jaspers compiler invoker and placed it in the tree for AltRMI, then written Java source to a temp dir. This can be done in advance (like rmic) or at runtime on the server for truly dynamic opration. Refelctions Dynamic proxys were not quite good enough for AltRMI either. Reason - I love beanshell and use it to poke interfaces for testing. An example I always cite is for JAMES : bsh jamesAdmin = getAltRMIObject(james.host,8999,JamesAdmin); bsh fred = jamesAdmin.addUser(Fred Flintstone); bsh jamesAdmin.enableUser(fred); All that is possible (given the JAMES API) with beanshell / AltRMI now without and James classes pre-existing in beanshell's classpath. The thing that makes it so much easier to use is that the arriving jamesAdmin instance supports getMethods() in the nromal way which is very beanshell friendly. - Paul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: Error on site-internal link
-Original Message- From: Rolf Heckemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rolf Heckemann Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Error on site-internal link Hi The page http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html contains the link http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/ action/SetAll/project_id/2 which brings up a NoClassDefFoundError. I need the Faq-O-Matic - please help. Rolf -- Rolf Heckemann (Dr. med.) Research Fellow Department of Imaging Hammersmith Hospital, London -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken
-Original Message- From: Jonathan Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken I cannot get the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic to work correctly. http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/action/Set All/project_id/2 displays the following error message: Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648) at org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158) at org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.doPerform(D efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(Application FilterChain.java:247) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(ApplicationFilterCh ain.java:193) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapperValve.ja va:243) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardContextValve.ja va:201) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValve.java:164 ) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispatcherValve. java:170) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5 64) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValve.java:170 ) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5 64) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngineValve.java :163) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProcessor.java: 1011) at org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor.java:1106 ) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484) It would be good if this can be fixed relatively quickly (it's been like this for a couple of days now) as it seems to present a very bad picture of Jakarta Tomcat if the Jakarta team cannot get their own Java-enabled website running correctly. All the best, -- Jonathan Miller Cartesian Limited Descartes House 8 Gate Street London WC2A 3HP web: www.cartesian.co.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: J2EE considered harmful
*persistence transparency* = *waste of efficiency* There are no good systems that solve that yet. It only works for very simple schemas. Besides, (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to concatenate Strings; (2) The use of Javabeans is abused. For (1) I use SQL generators for the most common operations and SQL templates - defined in an XML file - for the others. Having SQL defined outside the Java code often saves a lot of time and avoids the concatenation mess. For (2)... just go to the jakarta-commons mail archives and check the discussions about the DynaBeans stuff. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful ... Well, if EJB (or others) are doing it wrong, it doesn't mean that Object Relational approach is bad. I agree that objects mapped straight to the rows one to one are not of much use by themselves. But they provide something that you will need to build your less fine grained objects, namely *persistence transparency*. By the same token you can say that any objects that use Java Bean pattern are useless, since all they have is get and set methods. But well, some people may like to concatenate SQL strings every time they want to get some data written or read to/from the database. The keyword here is productivity. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik http://objectstyle.org list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
I accept. I want to see the end of the movie. =;o) And I believe I will (would) survive if the lower probability result happens. I am already too involved anyway. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:41 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar You mean that you accept? (You need to accept or decline) -Original Message- From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar Now I am speechless! (Never happened before as you well know!) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code that we have been producing. He has experienced first hand the pains that are inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are made based on the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist. Throughout it all he has never been one to hold back his opinions. Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly involved in the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: J2EE considered harmful
A bit more of OT inline: =;o) -Original Message- From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:50 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful At 09:11 PM 1/31/2002 +0100, Paulo Gaspar wrote: (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to concatenate Strings; Yes, am pretty sure there are ways to make life easier with SQL, sorry for bad comparison. No reason to be sorry. The traditional approach you pointed is a PITA. I am just mentioning alternatives. See, despite all of the skepticism about O/R mechanisms, I believe in this approach for one reason - I used a good O/R tool for major development for about 4 years now. I am talking about WebObjects. I believe this was the first application server out there (I think before even the term was coined). Now it lives in a relative obscurity since NeXT (the inventor of it) was bought by Apple, and Apple has no reputation for enterprise solutions. I always read good thinking about WebObjects. I am really getting curious about it. The bottom line here is that developer productivity goes up significantly. Code produced is incomparably easier to understand and maintain. And performance price is not that big (definitely not comparable to the impact EJB would make). UAU! Good performance too? I did read a lot about its productivity but nothing about performance. (2) The use of Javabeans is abused. Totally agree. Still does not make this pattern bad. One use is a transport mechanism for data between the application parts. Clean and easy to understand. Yes, but I think javabeans should be reserved for complex business logic where it shines on the clean easy aspects. For data transport a lot can be automated in Java using approaches like the Dynabeans. I mean, code like this: bean1.field1 = someOtherSource.getObject(field1); bean1.field2 = someOtherSource.getObject(field2); ... bean1.field47 = someOtherSource.getObject(field47); is really dumb and painful. Sorry for an OT post, this J2EE licensing discussion got a bit off hand. A lot of interesting discussions go on OT all the time. =;o) ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik http://objectstyle.org list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
Sometimes I (argh!) love Jon! =;o) Paulo -Original Message- From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:07 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml] Why is that? -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml] I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial matter at the top of the home page, and would like to move it to the news and status page. -Ted. Original Message Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta WebSite CVS List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jon 02/01/30 13:53:04 Modified:docs index.html xdocsindex.xml Log: lets have a little fun. Revision ChangesPath 1.52 +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html Index: index.html === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v retrieving revision 1.51 retrieving revision 1.52 diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52 --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 - 1.51 +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 - 1.52 @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@ table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2 width=100% trtd bgcolor=#525D76 font color=#ff face=arial,helvetica,sanserif + a name=That flaming fireball in the sky...strongThat flaming fireball in the sky.../strong/a +/font + /td/tr + trtd +blockquote +p +In a recent a href=http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Sun Interviewarticle/a, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say: +/p +p +The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts +don't impact the viability of that effort. +/p +p +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE licensing +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed it, it does). +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java Community +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim that +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's +licensing terms, feel free to contact a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED];[EMAIL PROTECTED]/a and let us know what you +think. Thanks. +/p +/blockquote +/p + /td/tr + trtdbr//td/tr +/table +table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2 width=100% + trtd bgcolor=#525D76 +font color=#ff face=arial,helvetica,sanserif a name=WelcomestrongWelcome/strong/a /font /td/tr 1.21 +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml Index: index.xml === RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v retrieving revision 1.20 retrieving revision 1.21 diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21 --- index.xml 20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 - 1.20 +++ index.xml 30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 - 1.21 @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@ body +section name=That flaming fireball in the sky... +p +In a recent a +href=http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Su nInterview + +article/a, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say: +/p + +p +The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts +don't impact the viability of that effort. +/p + +p +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE licensing +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed it, it does). +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java Community +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim that +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary +interfaces'. If you would like to express your
FAQ-o-matic down at least since yesterday...
4 complains and counting! Can someone take care of this? Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FAQs web page It seems that the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic is having problems. It retrieves a Java error so I thought I would mention it in case you were not aware of it. I noticed it this past weekend and it's still having a problem. I found the link to it at this page : http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html Which points to -http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaq s/action/SetAll/project_id/2 Not sure if the link is incorrect or some other issue. __ Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca -Original Message- From: Brumer, Haim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 8:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: faq o matic Hi, please fix the faq-o-matic (Jakarta). I need info and the faq has been down for over a wk. thanks, haim -Original Message- From: Chanoch Wiggers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:53 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: there seems to be a major problem with the faqomatic link on http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html which leads to the following: http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/ action/Set All/project_id/2 which gives class not found exception copied in below. Hope this helps... chanoch technical editor wrox press ltd Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648) at org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158) at org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d oPerform(D efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A pplication FilterChain.java:247) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati onFilterCh ain.java:193) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp erValve.ja va:243) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte xtValve.ja va:201) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv e.java:164 ) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat cherValve. java:170) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:5 64) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv e.java:170 ) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:5 64) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine Valve.java :163) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:5 66) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce ssor.java: 1011) at org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor .java:1106 ) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484) -Original Message- From: Valerio Gruppo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: page ERROR - problel with FAQ link http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/action/Set All/project_id/2 it doesnt work!!! Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648
FW: Web site error
-Original Message- From: Allen Chesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 10:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Web site error The URL http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/ action/SetAll/project_id/2 which is the Official Jakarta Faq-o-matic link from URL http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html produces a set of JAVA exceptions as follows: Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648) at org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158) at org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d oPerform(DefaultSessionValidator.java:101) at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A pplicationFilterChain.java:247) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati onFilterChain.java:193) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp erValve.java:243) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:566) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte xtValve.java:201) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:566) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv e.java:164) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:566) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat cherValve.java:170) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:564) at org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv e.java:170) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:564) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine Valve.java:163) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel ine.java:566) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline. java:472) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce ssor.java:1011) at org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor .java:1106) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: More abuse of coding styles...
This thread goes so loong with all of you
showing yours that I can't resist showing mine:
public void setSomething(Object i_something)
{
m_something = i_something;
}
Or even...
public void setSomething(Object i_something)
{
Object something; // a local something
something = fixThat(i_something);
if (isCool(something))
{
m_something = i_something;
}
else
{
throw new IllegalArgumentException(What a bad thing we have
here!!!);
}
}
Prefix paranoia huh?
But I never mix class members with parameters or with local
vars due to similar spellings and misspellings and so.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
-Original Message-
From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:26 PM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: More abuse of coding styles...
Sam Ruby wrote:
Stephane Bailliez wrote:
I can understand why:
public void setSomething(Object something){
something = something;
}
Another solution is
public void setSomething(Object something) {
this.something = something;
}
Just beware of this bug:
public void setSomething(Object somthing) { // something misspelled
this.something = something;
}
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RE: Code conventions
LOL!
Are you taking these guys seriously?
=;o)
Have fun,
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Carlos Alonso Vega [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:31 PM
To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Code conventions
Tim Vernum wrote:
It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s,
Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.
Don't you know?
The less space your source code takes, the less space
your class file will take.
And smaller classes run faster.
Well, I could be wrong, but if i remember it well, the same
compiler produces the same object code no matter the number of
spaces, newlines, and tabs are between tokens, statements, and
so. They are not important for object code, just for readability.
Compiler could take a bit (quite bit) more to compile a file, but
once the class is generated, the result object file should be the same.
(Forgive me if i am wrong)
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RE: [OT] Code conventions
What about at leat a clue ([OT]) that this is completely out of topic? =;o) (Yeah! I should have done this before myself.) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Armin Zeltner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:31 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Code conventions Hi folks, what about micro-printed on-screen code, watched through glasses? faster? or slower? JAVA is a myst Kurt Schrader wrote: On Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: What about if you set the font size really small? LOL -Andy Perhaps Microsoft just has their font size set really big. :) -Kurt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mission ...
Production quality sounds MUCH better to me! Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:31 AM To: general at jakarta Subject: Re: Mission ... Personally, While I don't have strong feeling about this, and a Mission statement is what it is... I don't know that commercial-quality is a positive thing these days. Alternatively, I'd say high-quality. Its a stupid distinction I know but I've used some duds that were supposedly commercial-quality (especially from *cough*microsoft*cough* the big vendors). I feel Jakarta should champion OS software as being equal to or better than commercial-quality even when OS software is commecial (if that makes any sense). Like I said pedantic but it just stuck out at me. -Andy -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: crushed
Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev list and the relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now all is good over there. Keep in mind (maybe not Peter but other readers of this post) that: 1) Both groups always had common long term objectives but disagreed on the way to achieve them or had different short term targets; 2) If there had been a strict imposition from above, TC3.3 could have been forked and a lot of that group could have gone elsewhere. Maybe this would have permanently destroyed many synergies between the 2 groups that were always there (like with the connectors) and others that are now evolving. In the process, maybe some TC3.3 ideas proved their worth to some TC4 guys, which means increased cross pollination. In this case strict control would have prevented several positive things from happening. Similar situation with the Logging APIs, just that this time on separate projects: 1) Now both groups are quite a bit incompatible and forcing a merge would destroy or send away one of the projects; 2) Still, some projects prefer Log4J and others LogKit; 3) Each of these Logging libraries seems to have its advantages and different strong and week spots. I am quite sure of this since at the company I work for we have been using LogKit and Log4J for different projects and I have been doing some logging work with both; 4) The need of other projects (e.g.: commons components) to use both is already putting some pressure into cross pollination. With time, it can happen that: - They will finally be able to merge; - One of them will learn all the advantages from the other and become dominant. Either way, positive cross pollination is bound to happen. This is why I would prefer to have both projects around instead of just forcing them to merge. Lets put some peer pressure on them without destroying them. Many general strict rules - like forcing to merge what seems to be the same thing - would be very destructive in this kind of situation. Common sense must be applied (like: no, you can not fork Tomcat in another project) on a case by case basis. And yes, I am aware of how uncommon common sense seems to be but I still believe there is enough of it around here. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:12 PM On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote: I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails on design: The problem with singlemindedness and strict control (or design) is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's not like we know that B is our final destination. -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much prefer that all Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are talking about. Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev list and the relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now all is good over there. Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side competing? Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the end (though maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers). -- Cheers, Pete - First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us. - -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Turbine and Avalon serve very distinct purposes, uses and users. They just have a load of components trying to do the same thing. Those could be shared and unified by placing them in the commons. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:13 PM On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:04, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/7/02 2:45 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote: Peter, So are you proposing to become a log4j committer? Would there be a point to that? sarcasm Exactly. Collaboration on a single logging tool would be a terrible idea. /sarcasm so would collaboration on a web framework -- Cheers, Pete - Clarke's Third Law: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. - -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles. Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma. =:o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:54 AM Paulo Gaspar wrote: No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page! =:o/ But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of minutes for someone who does know. karma follows clue, i.e., get a clue, and you get karma. A good place to start is by going to http://jakarta.apache.org;, and clicking on About this site. One thing that a handful of us are painfully aware of... there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of couple of minute tasks that come up a week - granting someone karma, moderating spam from the mailing lists, chasing down build breakages. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then. No demands required. Wrong guess. =;o) I am noisy but not a committer in any Apache projects. Just posted a few patches on a couple of projects. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 7:01 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed) Paulo Gaspar wrote: I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles. Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma. =:o) My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then. No demands required. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Volunteer Wanted
LOL I am willing to help but I will not stop being a pain in your ass when I find it necessary. Please remember that I do not systematicaly disagree with you. I just disagree when I can not agree. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Volunteer Wanted I want to remove my name from this page: http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Volunteer Wanted
Ok Ted, At the moment I do not have enough time to assume the responsibility for the whole thing but I am willing to help. (I also do not have the time for flaming days like yesterday.) One more making some of the work must be of some help. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:21 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Volunteer Wanted The Webmaster box is a group account, and its easy to share. Just hit reply-all so the other webmasters know you replied. Peir used to help out, but he's off now. Another committer helps out now and again, but its mostly just me now. Which is fine, but I thought I would float the offer since it came up. I also just put up one of Jon's famous gatekeeper pages, http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contact.html which may cut down the traffic a bit (which isn't much now). It's really not a problem. -T. Ceki Gülcü wrote: First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta. Second, acting as a receptionist at desk with a million visitors a day is not what I call a dream job. The task should left to one person but shared on a rotational basis. I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. Any other volunteers? Regards, Ceki At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote: I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster emails, that would be great. Jon Scott Stevens wrote: I want to remove my name from this page: http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
I would still prefer having both around. There are users and committers for each that are not willing to move to the other. IMO, community rules. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:45 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote: Peter, So are you proposing to become a log4j committer? Would there be a point to that? -- Cheers, Pete --- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. - Sun Tzu, 300 B.C. --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]
As a newbie (only 1.5 years around) I found the small bio posted by Stefano on the Cocoon-dev list very interesting and instructive. This post was triggered by curiosity and know-your-community concerns that popped up in a couple of Cocoon-dev threads less than 2 months ago. IMO, the fact that it is written in the first person only helps. To ease the task of searching for it, I am just attaching it. Maybe Ted and others can use it as an historic source. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 3:48 PM Ted Husted wrote: At this point, I'm reconciled to do more work on the Jakata site using XML in the old-fashioned way. I can't resonate more with your feelings. That's exactly what made me started the 'forrest' effort: the coherence on xml.apache.org and the ease of update has been slowly falling apart until now when people can't even run in on their machines without getting fonts problems (yeah, blocked by fonts problems! go figure!) We have some unratified guidelines that expand on the ones (you?) originally set down. No, that wasn't me to edit that page, even if much was taken from my java.apache constitution (as you indicate below), which on my side, took from the old dev.apache.org guidelines for [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html If you were able to review them, I would of course very much like to have your comments before making a final update and calling for a vote. I'm honored. I'll do it ASAP. I would also like to add more rationale for some of the guidelines. The recent dicussion regarding coding conventions had less to do with the conventions themselves, and more to do with why we even have conventions. (And having conventions, why don't we enforce them.) Good point. As Jakarta grows, it becomes more and more important that we have better ways to introduce peoole into the fold. Right now, there is a tendency to make someone a Committer and let them find their own way around. At this time, I'd like to go to work on a Committer's guidebook that would help explain how things are done (starting with How to do a Release -- which raised the JAR discussion the other day). Oh, gosh, you are probably unaware of the fact that I'm the one that continously pisses people off on the ASF member list (unfortunately private) about having those 'committer guidelines' up and running. James Davidson and I were the one who made the page on how to setup your SSH tunnel for CVS. Yes, this is the right direction, but people must commit to keep those guidelines up 2 date and many people (expecially apache root's) failed miserably to do it. Also we must make those easy to find. Again, Forrest will help. I think the real solution to improving the noise:signal ratio is to move away from the oral (email) tradition we have now, and move back toward providing more grassroots documentation, as you did in the preamble to the original constition. http://java.apache.org/main/constitution.html Absolutely. An actual history of Jakarta might also be useful to give people a better perspective. Here's one passages I tucked away (to be joined by your own snippets of late). Pier to Jon - Thu, 21 Dec 2000 We've traveled a long way together, from my very first steps in open-source land in January 1998, to our marvelous meeting at the first ApacheCON in October 1998, the Jakarta room meeting, all JavaONEs, and all we did together to bring this project where it is right now. Pier again, same day And we, as the newly formed Apache Software Foundation, accepted that code in donation as a point of start for the Jakarta Project. I was there, in that meeting room, that day when we outlined how the process would have evolved, with Jon, Stefano and Brian. And I was there, on stage at JavaONE, when Patricia Sueltz announced the spinoff of the project againg with Jon, Stefano and Brian. If that has been a wrong decision, we four are the people to blame... A coherent history might help with many of the questions about why we do things the way we do. (Or why we don't do some things at all.) I think clearly documenting the Apache Way would be an important first step to unifying the Apache Projects. Great point. I absolutely agree. I would also like to personally commend Jon with his efforts to better document Jakarta. He has put a lot into the Web site (probably 90%), and we all owe him a great debt. Oh, I never even thought about questioning this. I personally owe everything to Jon: without his kind messages, I wouldn't have remained around the community enough to get the 'apache feeling' out of it. Jon and I have very different technical views and very different ways of doing software architectures and sometimes some friction develops, but all
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Jon wrote: There is no community. There is projects which have people who follow them blindly. I do not believe that. What I am seeing are the same signs Sam sees: Sam wrote: In my, admittedly biased, perspective, I see significant improvement in terms of community over the course of the past eleven months or so. For starters, the following results would have been inconceivable at the time: http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2002-01-07/ I also see an initiative by Ted and others to build a commons are which promotes reuse. Conscientious objectors notwithstanding, they plow relentlessly ahead, continuing to make incremental and enduring progress. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 5:05 PM on 1/7/02 3:14 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would still prefer having both around. There are users and committers for each that are not willing to move to the other. IMO, community rules. There is no community. There is projects which have people who follow them blindly. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of our system of checks and balances. I just love checks and balances. It is the least perfect system except for all the others already tried. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 6:04 PM on 1/7/02 8:55 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Be forewarned that the Apache tradition is to allow people with enough fire in their belly to tackle a particular problem that is important to them the freedom to do so. If the problems you see are something that you feel need tackling and the only effective way in which this can be accomplished is for you to become the Jakarta PMC chair, then I could certainly arrange for an election to take place. I can't guarantee the results of the election or the success of your quest, but I can do my part to enable you to pursue your goals. Think about this for a while, and let me know if this is a path you wish to pursue. - Sam Ruby Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of our system of checks and balances. In other words, I don't see PMC chair being any more important or special or enabled than simply being a member of the PMC, which I already am. As I already said, I also don't think I have enough backing to: #1. Get voted into being the PMC chair. #2. Make enough of a change to help turn Jakarta around from a slow spiraling death. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Which projects are those? Can you really compare them - and their community - with Jakarta? I just want to know more. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:16 PM ... Exactly. I feel that this lack of semblance of control from the top has actually hurt us. Looking at the success of other projects which have more control at the top makes me realize this. Jakarta to me is now a complete anarchy where people can do whatever they want without having to worry about consequences over the long term. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
I do what I can at the pace I am able. Which is quite impressive. Especially considering that you probably have other duties and a live. I agree 100% with the rest (especially with the mass revolt bit). Checking mechanisms (automatic or manual) and systematic nagging look much more constructive and efficient to me than occasional bursts of flames. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:17 PM Jon Stevens wrote: There were no documents like that before I wrote it. Forgive me, but I still hold to my belief that that at the time it was written, that document wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Just like there was no nag.pl before I came up with the idea to implement it. You can believe what you want. It was part of my master plan. If anything, you initially resisted nag.pl. One way I know this is because as the PMC Chair, you refused make it a requirement of projects to have it enabled. Instead, you relied on social pressures to work their magic. This actually extended the amount of time it took for people to adopt Gump and raise its awareness. It also caused quite a bit of pain (as you say below) as projects had votes against it. IIRC, your plan was to send nags on succcesses as well as failures. Re: mass conversion - I still believe that there would have been mass revolt instead. I do not have enough arms and legs to be everywhere at all times. I have deliberatedly paced the rate at which I have incorporated new codebases based on how many battles I felt that I could concurrently fight. There are quite a few code bases that took a number of iterations before the either saw the light or resigned themselves to the fact that I wasn't going to relent. Exactly. I feel that this lack of semblance of control from the top has actually hurt us. Looking at the success of other projects which have more control at the top makes me realize this. Jakarta to me is now a complete anarchy where people can do whatever they want without having to worry about consequences over the long term. I do what I can at the pace I am able. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cross-pollination
A document in some web page buried deep in the structure of a large web site is not open to public discussion because unless you are privy to reading all the web site you don't know about it. Hey... that is why not so many people knew about Intake!!! ...and it is even harder to find out that there is a Connection Pool in Turbine. I casually found DBCP the first time I visited the commons page in a couple of minutes but had to use Google before loosing my patience trying to find it at the Turbine pages. Forrest is very recent and maybe the xml.apache guys should have already posted a note about it HERE and on several other spots. However, making information public across Apache demands a bit more work than just posting it at a single spot, web site or mailing list. Just trying to make sure you understand how much effort can take to make information public across such large community and how easy is to fail when everybody does not read everything. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cross-pollination I care what is openly documented on websites. A mailing list discussion is not an open discussion because unless you are privy to reading all the mail, you don't know about it. -jon on 1/7/02 11:08 AM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has been discussed on general@xml. Check the archives. Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: crushed
I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails on design: The problem with singlemindedness and strict control (or design) is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's not like we know that B is our final destination. -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 UAU! Another guy that saw the light!!! =:oD Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jeff Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:51 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: crushed On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Guys, This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan who is like an idol of mine said this: We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects that only want the name recognition value of being under Apache, and don't have a development community compatible with Apache's style. That's much more important than whether it's server-side versus client-side, or in one repository versus another. Seemingly directed at POI. I don't see what the problem is. Read it carefully.. for that statement to apply, POI would have to: - _only_ want the name recognition. - have a development community incompatible with Apache's style Do either of those statements apply to POI? Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all up for me: The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there should be one and only one implementation of any particular functionality -- one size fits all is a very rare phenomenon in my experience, and having some choice is helpful. I have _never_ seen a user complain about having too many choices. Not even between notorious duplications like Tomcat 3/4 and Crimson/Xerces. I _have_ seen users want comparisons, and better docs to help them make the choice. Choice is good. Documented choice is infinitely better :) I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails on design: The problem with singlemindedness and strict control (or design) is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's not like we know that B is our final destination. -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 --Jeff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: crushed
Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the process and then following that process. Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close to agreement on it. Jon, I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative. Sam already suggested performing an automated check and NAG the trespassers. Do you see a better alternative? I believe you already slapped me around a few times for complaining instead of acting. Your turn to act. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: crushed on 1/7/02 3:51 PM, Jeff Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem with singlemindedness and strict control (or design) is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you going to consistently know where you actually want to end up? It's not like we know that B is our final destination. -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 That isn't entirely what I'm asking for (re: singlemindedness and strict control). Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the process and then following that process. Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close to agreement on it. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Questions
If we were to elect a new PMC Chair tomorrow, who would you like to see elected? Why is that question important??? Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:07 AM on 1/7/02 1:36 PM, Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look, I think Sam is irreplaceable and so are you. I don't want to even think about what would happen if anything happened to any of you. Heaven forbid. That's all I have to say on this. You and Ted are focusing on the wrong part of the question. Let me rephrase the same question another way so that you can see how your focus is on the wrong thing: If we were to elect a new PMC Chair tomorrow, who would you like to see elected? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here... How can you know? I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is not that obvious to me. I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that good. I do not like their documentation that much. JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for something with a lot of demand, unlike Jakarta products like Tomcat or Velocity. Give me a better case and/or concrete reasons, please. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:25 AM on 1/7/02 4:26 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which projects are those? Can you really compare them - and their community - with Jakarta? Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here... -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cultural homogeneity
So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish Lira today). I would give at least 2 Euros for this one! =:o) Couldn't say it better... or I would have done it before! =:o) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:30 AM Jon Scott Stevens typed the following on 04:22 PM 1/6/2002 -0800 on 1/6/02 3:46 PM, Kief Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although I haven't been participating, I've been following this discussion, and would like to donate my 30,000 Turkish Lira (roughly $0.02 at today's rates). Yes, everyone has an opinion and it is easy to express, but no one stands up to actually make anything of it. So, therefore, the opinion is actually worthless (ie: $0.00). I'm sorry you feel that way Jon, but I don't entirely see that you're making anything of your opinions either. Not to disrespect your contributions to Jakarta, but if we're discussing what's wrong with Jakarta, what's your solution? So far the most concrete solution I've seen from you is that Geir or Ceki would make a better PMC than Sam, presumably because they would govern with a more iron fist. So, if that's what you want, do something about it, you're a PMC member, call for a vote. Otherwise, what do you suggest be done? What exactly *is* the problem with Jakarta from your POV? My interpretation of your comments is that Jakarta needs to be more tightly managed (more Cathedral than Bazaar?) I see this as more of a philosophical problem: some people prefer a more loosely knit organization, consensus rather than command, some prefer a more tightly run ship. You say that the current management philosophy has sunk the ship, Jakarta is a big failure, etc., but what *exactly* has gone wrong? - Code standards are not being enforced. An issue, maybe, but IMO not something that has killed the project, I can't see that it's had a negative effect on the quality of the code or its success in the industry: it's just untidy. And I think it's perfectly correctible within the current regime. Somebody who doesn't like it can implement the system Sam suggested to monitor and nag code formatting. If nobody can be arsed to implement that, it can't be that big a problem, can it? - Duplication of code (logging, validation, etc.) Partly a philosophical problem. As Craig says, diversity is good. On the other hand, maybe Jakarta should present a clear, unified interface to its users. I have to straddle the fence here, (sorry, I'm failing to make something again), and say I agree that Jakarta could be better, but I don't think a more dictatorial central command would achieve that. For example, you suggest Sam should take authority and mandate documentation requirements. Why not propose it, and have the community agree on it? If the community doesn't want to do it, Sam or someone else imposing rules from on high isn't going to make them do it. I can see your frustration - there are lots of things like the above issues that you would like to see changed, and if the only way to make them happen is for an interested person to make it so, then you're faced with the alternatives of doing it yourself (and you already do a lot of shit, and apparently on the edge of burning yourself out), or seeing it not get done. Having someone else take charge and impose order probably seems like the ideal solution. But if someone were to actually do that at Jakarta, the suspect the results would be massive defections, and a severe shrinking of the project. A laissez-faire community can tolerate people who want more order, but an authoritarian regime can't tolerate those who want more freedom. Maybe defections of those who don't want a tightly run ship would suit you, Jakarta would be reduced to a smaller, more easily managed project, more like the old days, perhaps. So I'm still not contributing anything to this. Why not? Because Jakarta as it exists suits my needs very well. I'm always finding more useful stuff in Jakarta, and although there are rough edges - build processes aren't consistent, and it does occasionally annoy me to have to install a different package for logging or such - for the most part, these things are much more consistent than what I find on sourceforge. If I can find a Jakarta package that does what I need, I don't usually care if what's on sourceforge is better, I'll use the Jakarta version because it shares the build processes, package dependencies, and process for contributing changes, that I'm used to. The sourceforge projects I've dabbled with just aren't put together the way I like. So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish Lira today). Kief -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Answer inline, -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:18 AM on 1/7/02 5:18 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here... How can you know? I hosted their project on my servers for the first couple of years they were alive and have had a boat load of conversations with Marc. You sure seem to be well informed. =;o) I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is not that obvious to me. I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that good. I do not like their documentation that much. JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for something with a lot of demand I think it is more than that though...they have worked to develop a community and a LOT of interest. At least that is what their website suggests. It could be a result of what you say, but Jakarta's success isn't necessarily because of our projects or our community...it is because of the Apache name behind it. I think you overvalue Apache's name on that and undervalue the quality of what is done here. I moved here less than 2 years ago and I believe my POV is more impartial about that, since I was not immersed on Jakarta since day one as you did. If you want a detail account of how a newbie arrives and stays at Apache: The fact that Apache made the famous Apache Web server did not motivate me to get an immediate adept of its Java stuff at all. I thought: So, they have Java. Having people that know how to make a Web server does not mean they know how to do anything else. Probably it is not even the same people. But since I had found Apache's Java page by accident, I decided to take a look. New to web development, JServ did not impress me at all. I wanted to use Java since Servlets and JSPs looked much better designed and easier to use than ISAPI Extensions and ASPs (yes... coming from the MS platform). Servlets looked even simpler and more powerful than using Delphi for the ISAPI extensions (I did not even consider using VC++). Since JServ looked so basic, I went on trying JRun (argh! it sure was buggy) and Sun's Java Web Server (argh! buggy and heavy and slooowww!!!). I took a look at a load of other Servlet engines. Some were way too expensive for what they were worth... or it was just not sure at all they were worth something at all. Others were too basic or fragile. Then I found out many people saying that JServ was very robust, found about Tomcat, tried both and started using JServ (and started getting into flame wars with Jon about TC 3.3 (o;= ). So I did not come here because of the Apache name, but because JServ had its own reputation for robustness and because Tomcat was almost there. (And I tested and played with Tomcat much more than with JServ to be sure of that.) It was the same with all other Java software and source code I am using. I tried to find alternatives everywhere, used Google, spent hours digging on Java publications and on source code. In the end most of what I use is Apache again. I once had a list of around 10 projects/project-families which Docs and Source I considered worth checking with some detail after a lot of pre-selection work (which already included taking a look at bits of code and reading a lot of docs). Among these project families were big monsters like JBoss, Exolab, Locomotive, etc. I even subscribed most JBoss lists and some from Exolab. In terms of the source code I adapted, everything I ended up using was Apache. Only recently did I integrate a couple of other classes. Only one non-Apache project taught me something really meaningful that I really used. (I learned a lot other stuff, of course. But I am not using it - most of it is JNDI and otherwise J2EE related.) In terms of libraries, lets take a look at my lib directory... Sun Java APIs, JDBC drivers, a couple of scripting engines (I recommend Pnuts - damn fast) and Apache stuff again! A Search Engine and a Logging API used in my company ended up coming to Apache - Log4J and Lucene. btw-ot-remark I currently use LogKit in my stuff, wrapped by (an adapted) Avalon's common logging interface. One size does not fit all and, unless one of them changes a lot, I would rather have both. /btw-ot-remark That I ended up with Apache for almost everything as nothing to do with the Apache brand. It just has to do with: 1 - The quality of the product; 2 - This crazy and brilliant community. And yes, my eyes are not closed to the world outside Apache and I keep checking other tools and libraries. But I end up learning more about good outside Apache tools form Apache related sources than from all other sources together - which means that many others
RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Ceki, I believe all you say. However that does not mean that JBoss does better elsewhere than it would do here. Jon stated that some non-Apache projects show that there are better ways of doing Open Source and gave JBoss as an example. But we just do not know how it would be if they were her. IMHO, JBoss is much cleaner of nonsense and much easier to get working than all the other Open Source app servers. That's it - no competition. It would probably also have no competition at Apache just by having the same core developers and core orientations (or just most of them). I just think they always had the best direction by a long way and that it would be like that anyway. Orion, although cheap and good, is payware... and I think I would choose JBoss even if Orion was Open Source (but I am not even 80% sure, much because Orion isn't OS). Me thinks Jon must come up with a better example to prove his POV. Me also thinks it will not be easy since Apache is quite good. And I am not a Jakarta founder. I took a look around with impartiality. I think Jon is undervaluing Jakarta because he helped creating it and he is comparing what it is with what he dreamed it would be. Things tend not to work according to our high expectations. I am comparing it with what I see elsewhere. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:36 AM The JBoss guys are very smart. Scott Stark is extremely high caliber. Mark is no idiot either. Jboss is successful because it is so fucking good. From where I stand, the other appservers are just copying JBoss. Where do you think the MBean architecture in Weblogic 6.x came from? The problem with JBoss is that while they innovate BEA and IBM make all the dough. Such is the nature of opensource. Bloody fucking hell! (From what I hear Orion is pretty good too.) At 02:18 08.01.2002 +0100, you wrote: Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here... How can you know? I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is not that obvious to me. I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that good. I do not like their documentation that much. JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for something with a lot of demand, unlike Jakarta products like Tomcat or Velocity. Give me a better case and/or concrete reasons, please. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: crushed
That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I have the energy to actually go through with it anymore. Did you ever run or walk a Marathon? Or just 20 Km? Or swim 10Km? It is one step (or stroke) after the other or you get too tired just by thinking about it. I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me? It does not have to be you. And I do not have to give a new idea since: - Sam's idea looks good enough for checking code style and nagging the offenders; - Stefano work on Forrest might improve a lot the site. It will take a couple of months for xml.apache to talk jakarta into it, have a couple of flame wars, adapting tools and layouts, etc... But the first step is taken and we all just need a bit of good will; - Someone already suggested (sorry, forgot whom!) having a search engine to help on finding information in Apache. Obvious solution, placing at the Jakarta home page: - A REALLY VISIBLE LINK TO http://search.apache.org/ - A simplified version of the form in that URL. (It is simple to shorten that form so that it only searches in Jakarta, or xml.apache, or Jakarta + xml.apache, etc. ) Even if this did not exist (and considering the problems of putting Lucene on an Apache BSD server) we could even use Google! It looks like they are keeping their indexes on Apache up to date (the new home page is indexed) and they have a free solution: http://www.google.com/services/free.html So, I think there are already a few solutions for the most immediate problems. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:00 AM on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative. That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I have the energy to actually go through with it anymore. I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
What about just a version of this form: http://search.apache.org/ or a link to it??? Take a look at my previous posting (the crushed thread) for more details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any sub-domain just by changing its HTML. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed) on 1/7/02 6:26 PM, Jeff Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The idea of a Jakarta code search engine has arisen a few times. Any lucene or alexandria developers care to comment? Cocoon docs are already searchable apparently, though this functionality isn't online. Alternatively, a simple link to Google (restricted by site:jakarta.apache.org) from the front page might help. --Jeff Good suggestion! Maybe setting up LXR would also be a cool idea. Not sure how much it will help since people have a hard enough time figuring out how to format code and send mail to the right mailing list... :-) That said, I'm sure there is a lot of stuff to learn from Mozilla.org as well. They seem pretty successful and have much larger numbers than us. :-) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page! =:o/ But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of minutes for someone who does know. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed) on 1/7/02 7:59 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about just a version of this form: http://search.apache.org/ or a link to it??? Take a look at my previous posting (the crushed thread) for more details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any sub-domain just by changing its HTML. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar Ok Paulo, do it. Make it happen. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
COOL! =:o) -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:03 AM On 1/8/02 12:05 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page! =:o/ But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of minutes for someone who does know. Done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
Well, I did learn how to change a Jakarta web page! This time the theory, next time the patch! =:o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed) on 1/7/02 9:05 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No karma Submit a patch. , no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page! RTFM http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html Oh well, Geir did your work for you, so you don't learn anything. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
Here we go again, -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:45 AM Playing Devil's advocate. I think it's fair to push back on adding things to Jakarta... On 1/5/02 9:53 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please read these posts and then tell me where you're not clear? http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02681.html Isn't it fair to guess that the majority of your server side use would be reading documents for presentation, indexing, searching? WHY for presentation? Most of the time you would batch convert Word and Excel docs to HTML if needed, and there are specialized tools for that. However, you point out in the above link that the thing that makes POI special is it's ability to *write*? What's the % of mainly writing to mainly reading on the serverside? As mentioned in my previous posting, it is JUST like Velocity writing HTML. http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02685.html Paulo might use VB to make a client side app, but I wouldn't if I wanted portability, especially if I was looking to the handheld or embedded application that could access a document remotely... Are there many uses for writing Word/Excel documents in a client-side device that has not Word or Excel installed??? And AFAIK, if you have Word and Excel, you have at least some Basic scripting... but maybe you do not have Java. ... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
Again... -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:14 PM On 1/6/02 12:11 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Lots of is it server or is it client talk ... I just mean that sometimes saying that something is server-side or client-side just makes no sense. As Ceki puts it, maybe JMeter is one of the few clearly server-side products in Jakarta. BTW... is Log4J server-side? =;o) From what I read, POI is an API that accesses data in XLS files... Theres a huge difference. And Cocoon isn't part of Jakarta, is it? :) JUST because it is XML centric, which POI is not. Right. I wasn't advocating it going to XML-land - it doesn't seem to belong there either. It am still not aware of any valid argument that clearly states why it does not belong to Jakarta or why it belongs. It is just like BCEL or Log4J - some people wanted those projects here because they had use for them or were already using them. Nothing to do with serversideness!!! BTW, do you know they use Velocity for something??? Who, POI? NO! Cocoon! ... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cultural homogeneity
Or maybe we should just recognize that use of those terms is relatively arbitrary for many (most?) of the jakarta projects and throw it away completely? That is exactly what I think. Paulo -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:57 PM On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:57, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: So the problematic part of the conversation is that we are hung up on the literal semantics behind the words 'client' and 'server' and would be good to explore that. Or maybe we should just recognize that use of those terms is relatively arbitrary for many (most?) of the jakarta projects and throw it away completely? -- Cheers, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cultural homogeneity
I was just using it as a platform for the topic I really want to discuss. Go for the topic. =:o) I think that we are already discussing that topic but POI is now becoming more of a distraction than an example. Name the topic and I will try not to get distracted. =;o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:14 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Cultural homogeneity On 1/6/02 1:08 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would again try to get is to consider that we have a great chance to use a strong community to anchor a new project. Jakarta can't grow forever. When do you decide to actually step up and try to make a change? I hope it's *before* the outside perception of Jakarta changes from that of a place of high-quality projects with strong communities and colorful characters, to Apache Sourceforge for Java. And I want to add something for the record, as I am frustrated and will try (try!) to shut up : This has nothing to do with the relative merits of POI. I am sure, given the clarity of thought and debate from Andrew, as well as the support from Stefano, that it will be a swell addition to the Jakarta fold. I was just using it as a platform for the topic I really want to discuss. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
Biting the bait: Maybe you and me are following different lists Jon. AFAIK there is cooperation between Tomcat 3x and Tomcat 4x people. I sure hope we will have a Tomcat 4 at least as nice to use as 3.3 is at the moment. I am sure that most Tomcat 3.x users will upgrade as soon as they feel confident about that being the case. It is possible that many already did it. Most 3.3 supporters have no emotional attachments to either the 3.3 or the 4.x code base. Many of us just believed 3.3 was the shortest path to a production quality Tomcat. _Maybe_ there was more people with other interests on the 4.x side. Either way, the main focus is on 4.x now and I do not see any ongoing flame wars on the Tomcat lists. Everybody wants its success. IMO it is better to stop feeding the flaming and let it die. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache] on 1/5/02 3:02 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look closely, Xerces 2 is the designated successor to *both* Xerces 1 and Crimson. The developers *are* working together. I won't pretend that everything is 100% smooth sailing, but significant progress is being made. Yea...just like Tomcat 3x and Tomcat 4x...suuueee... -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]
Hi Andrew, Before trying to organizize too much how Open Source development works, maybe you should consider that impositions of organization and discipline could kill the Golden Eggs Chicken. I can not express this POV better than Linus did in posts reported by this article: http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 Any corporation organizizes things and I do not see better user understanding there. Besides, there is no such thing as an Open Source external customer. Those that contribute to it (the authors and even noisy guys like me) ARE the customers. People PAY Open Source by participating. If something is wrong FIX IT! (Ok! I confess I learned this stuff mostly from Jon.) If you do not like an Open Source product as it is, contribute (fight) to change it. If most of the project owners do not let you, FORK. At least you can learn a lot and save a lot of work. You probably know what I am talking about since POI is Open Source. For complex enough software, Winston Churchill's remarks about democracy apply quite well to Open Source as we know it by rephrasing them a bit: Open Source is the worse form of developing complex software, except all those others that have been tried. ( The original Winston Churchill quote: Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been. ) Relax and have fun, organic growing works or we wouldn't be here! Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 1:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache] Not that I should have much of a role in this discussion but I'd like to contribute some thoughts stemming from an offline discussion I had. I think this discussion is still missing the point. There are a lot of outsider articles on what is wrong with Apache these days, most of them refer to the total disinterest (by many developers in the projects) on the market meaning what do the user's actually want. I'd say this is a component. (Please take this as somewhat of an outsider who has a lot of experience with Apache work-products) (as a symptom of this: Apache is OBVIOUSLY a better Web Server, TOMCAT is obviously a better App server of sorts, and though not a apache project JBOSS is a great enterprise serverso why is IIS gaining ground despite its overall suckiness?) The second component is an overall lack of unity-of-purpose. XML.apache.org hasn't reached a critical mass and in my opinion may never because it does have unity-of-purpose and I think that is part of why Stefano recommended I approach Jakarta first. POI has a lot to contribute to XML.apache.org but it has a lot of stuff that *would* contribute more to Jakarta's purpose if it had one. This isn't a slam, hear me out. The Apache group had a unity of purpose early on. They had a product: a webserver. Everything that Apache did had something directly to do with that product. Some things were semi-independent so subgroups seemed like the best way to handle it. Java-Apache had this unity-of-purpose: Java on Apache. Well for Java on Apache you need a mod to handle that (since everything is a mod in Apache) so you get mod-jserv, of course you have a lot of things that roll in and out of that based on serverside components for developing with your java mod. But you have unity-of-purpose. (or at least for a time) What is Jakarta's mission? server side java stuff. What is your product (look at the homepage)whoa thats a big list of subprojects... Wait is ant a server side java tool? Well..kinda sorta (build server)... what kind of server-side java stuff. XML.apache.org has a few well-defined products with the main one being Cocoon. This may change slightly as the web services thing comes to a head (as the speaker coordinator for my JUG www.trijug.org I can tell you this is coming to a head) and more web-servicey things happen with XML rather than publishing (Cocoon) and maybe at that time there should be a webservices.apache.org (and webservices will expand beyond XML), but for the moment you've got real products and a unity-of-purpose. (Which parts of POI fit well into..the cocoon 2 serializers for instance and others do not) So what do most people (users) come to Jakarta for? Tomcat. Why? Go to the front page. A big rattled on list of componentsIf I don't know what I'm looking for suffice to say I won't find it. If I say Tomcat the general IT population knows what I'm talking about. (and the rest know what I mean if I say the successor to JServ) Here's my 2c worth (and unless asked its the only thing I'll contribute to this discussion
RE: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache
-Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 3:16 PM ... Under the hood, I imagine that POI has more in common with things like FOP than things like Lucene. I fail to understand why you assume this. Why? I do not see POI making the generation of Word documents by FOP that much easier (it just takes care of a small bit of a very long path) but I see it taking care of most of the work of indexing Word and Excel documents with Lucene. Of course that maybe the Lucene guys do not want to support the indexing of specific document formats... Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Code conventions
In the process Hitler and his gang played a surprisingly high number of dirty tricks. Surprising at least for a non German, since we only get an overview of the WW2 history. Since I work in Germany I have the benefit of the many documentaries about the Nazi era played on TV (history is not forgotten here). I am often quite surprised about how twisted and sophisticated some of those tricks and strategies were. BTW, a lot of those strategies involve scaring and distracting the people with some fictional or real enemy. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Gerhard Froehlich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 5:59 PM Hi, skip/ Any democratic system is imperfect and hence flawed. Hitler was elected democratically although he soon moved to dismantle the system that brought him to power. D'oh, that damn Godwin's Law! Nein ;), Hitler and his NSDAP gets only ~30%. He became Reichskanzler because the other so called democratic parties like Volkspartei and Socialist where so quarreled that they were unable to form a strong coalition to kick this asshole out and preserve my country from this dark 15 years. Therefore the current Reichspräsident Hindenburg called Hitler for the new Reichskanzler, because the existing Parlament was to weak. After his dead '35 Hitler began with the so called Gleichschaltung. Hitler slowly destroyed the democratic system, but he was *never* elected democratic!! skip/ Gerhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Code conventions
I am sure Gerhard can give a better answer, but IMHO he abused a lot the system. The truth is that it can happen anywhere if people are not very alert and ready to fight for their rights. It could even happen in the USA and it is quite dangerous to think otherwise (because then you are not alert). Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:14 PM Gerhard, Is it fair and accurate to say that he came to power within the bounds and rules of a democratic system? At 17:58 04.01.2002 +0100, you wrote: Hi, skip/ Any democratic system is imperfect and hence flawed. Hitler was elected democratically although he soon moved to dismantle the system that brought him to power. D'oh, that damn Godwin's Law! Nein ;), Hitler and his NSDAP gets only ~30%. He became Reichskanzler because the other so called democratic parties like Volkspartei and Socialist where so quarreled that they were unable to form a strong coalition to kick this asshole out and preserve my country from this dark 15 years. Therefore the current Reichspräsident Hindenburg called Hitler for the new Reichskanzler, because the existing Parlament was to weak. After his dead '35 Hitler began with the so called Gleichschaltung. Hitler slowly destroyed the democratic system, but he was *never* elected democratic!! skip/ Gerhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
I am 100% for that. Even because: - How server specific is Ant? - And BCEL? - And Log4J? - And ORO? - And Regexp? - And Xerces? - And commons collections, DBCP, Beanutils... And I could push it a bit more. Of course that they are useful to build server stuff... as they could be useful to build client stuff, which is exactly what happens with POI! I think the QUALITY distinction is much more important than the server issue and that should probably be formalized. For me the important arguments being presented are those going on between Stefano and Jon - if there is enough commitment and support for it. (IMO Stefano record looks great. It only makes it better that he knows how and to whom to delegate responsibilities.) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:14 PM Sam Ruby wrote: P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? The thing with XML is that core products like Xerces are cross-platform. I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation Jakarta != Java Thinking about it more carefully, I would venture to say that POI (along with Battick, FOP, and Xang) may belong under Jakarta. But I'm not sure that we want to say that Jakarta != Java or XML==Java. I do think it might be helpful to drop the server stipulation from the Jakarta charter. I realized that we are all born of the HTTPD Apache server, but I think the ASF is growing past that. Jakarta should be about the development of open source products on the Java platform. And the ASF should be about promoting meritocratic development, regardless of what it has any ties to the Apache HTTPD. This coincides nicely with the other ASF projects, which are also based around given languages, like PHP. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cvs commit: jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump/site/xdocsant.xml
And this tool might help on formatting the code according to (whatever) standards you want to follow: http://jrefactory.sourceforge.net/cspretty.html Have fun, Paulo Gaspar http://www.krankikom.de http://www.ruhronline.de -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:17 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: cvs commit: jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump/site/xdocsant.xml Well Ted. the jokes on you... Have a look at ActionServlet versus this coding standard. :)) (no offense to anyone, this is in jest) Erik p.s. I've given CheckStyle a try... its a tough one to live with as its stringent, but perhaps this could be used during builds to spit out code standard non-compliance warnings: http://checkstyle.sourceforge.net - Original Message - From: Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: Re: cvs commit: jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump/site/xdocsant.xml Atta boy, Jon! (This may be your politest, most professional message yet ;-) Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/2/02 6:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +if (runtime != null) +depend.setAttribute(runtime, runtime.getValue()); All Java Language source code in the repository must be written in conformance to the Code Conventions for the Java Programming Language as published by Sun. http://java.sun.com/docs/codeconv/html/CodeConventions.doc6.html#449 :-) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache
You are right. I agree 100% with what you say here. My remark is no argument. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:35 PM on 1/3/02 10:15 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Andrew remarks, it goes quite well with Lucene. It opens the door to interesting synergies like: Slide + Lucene + HTML+PDF+Word+Excel = indexed repository of the most popular document formats! Have fun, Paulo Gaspar There is no reason why those synergies can't work with a project that isn't hosted at the ASF. As long as the licenses are compatible, projects should work together just fine. I don't want the outside world to get the idea that the ASF refuses to work with projects that are not within the ASF. That would just plain suck. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Another Comment for Apache.org
He might have used automatic translation. I recently had to read a Japanese web page translated to English that way and it sounded just the same. Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 7:06 PM See what you got with your flame fest? Now Frans has started making jokes! I must agree with Jon, this mail does not make much sense. But then, who cares. Alex. -Mensaje original- De: Frans Thamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: miércoles 12 de diciembre de 2001 18:21 Para: Jakarta General List Asunto: Another Comment for Apache.org The best place to post a question like this is ..., where there are more people to help you. I like this,, very wise sentence... When we help each other, we will smarter, and life will be enjoyable.. I discussed this with my friend, if the and idiot (not a dummies, remember the for dummies book), can contribute a good code to a project..what happen in the future of this book.. Who will kick Bill's ass, you as a commiter or that idiot people..? Sorry this is only a joke.. I join the mailing list, in last 2 years, just for add friendship, and i think i like this.. but sorry for my brain, may be i am not talent like all of you Jons.. But, if you life in my country (a specialist cannot life here), as a technical, you will understand it..haha.. but life will go on my friends. Frans _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Comment for Apache.org
He's busy these days, so we can all take turns proxying for him, with the caveat that you have to work hard on Jakarta stuff like he does to be a proxy. Who are you trying to fool? You would be never able to impersonate him!!! =;o) Paulo P.S.: And I am not talking about working hard. -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:27 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org On 12/11/01 5:12 PM, GOMEZ Henri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the Jakarta project Everybody could disagree with someone but the generally accepted rule is to stay correct with the person. There is many forums on the web to do run such dialogs. Better, I suggest people who want to flam Jon, to do it directly and leave this list a bit more quiet. The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not [EMAIL PROTECTED] How about we set up that list, and use PayPal to collect donations for some worthy cause (chosen by jon, of course) for people that want to publicly flame jon... He's busy these days, so we can all take turns proxying for him, with the caveat that you have to work hard on Jakarta stuff like he does to be a proxy. Anyone with $$ can flame, of course. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Comment for Apache.org
Yes, Jon could improve the package deal a lot if he wanted (just by cutting the minus side of it) but it does not look like it is going to happen. And I still prefer having him around than the alternative. Just my 2 (Euro) cents. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 3:08 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them. I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen. lloyd wrote: Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: commentary by Linus Torvalds
Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never written a real webapp with it. Lemmings! Isn't the JDK 1.4's logging API story similar? The guys did not pay that much attention to Ceki's remarks, did they? And in terms of logging-in-Java, Ceki is THE authority, isn't he? =:o/ Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:38 PM on 12/5/01 11:27 PM, Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an example of design-driven technology which may very well look really stupid in another few years, especially given its atrociously slow mutation rate. If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually *using* it, it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary keys... Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] The same can be said of JSP. Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never written a real webapp with it. Lemmings! -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mailing lists problem...
I am receiving no mail from any Apache mailling list for a couple of days. I am also getting no answer from the mailling list management robot. Do you know what is happening? Thanks, Paulo Gaspar P.S.: I do not have access from my usual mail address at paulo.gaspar at krankikom.de so I am trying too with this hotmail address. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. It is only a pity when he speaks his mind BEFORE making his mind. Sometimes his remarks just have no grounds because he did not study a subject before talking about it. And this seems to be the case. OTOH, one sure can learn a lot from him... being persistent enough jumping over the (many) crapy bits he dumps in the way. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. I am not going to say: - Jon, all that crap you sometimes do does not matter because you are an Apache cornerstone. All I can say is: - Jon, respect for others and yourself ALWAYS matters even if you were THE BOSS at Apache. Still, calling him (or anyone else) ungracious parts of the body is just another form of disrespect. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ASPizer Endre, Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond | sooner. | | A few comments: | | ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used | on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the | intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such | as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining | venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is | to continue in that direction. | | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon?? I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is just amazing! Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!! YEAH! Endre. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
