Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Hi, On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 21:38 +0100, drizzt wrote: The kernel internals are moving, and a lot, but this the user don't care about. you can rewrite gimp every day if you want, nobody (or no user at least) will care, if the user interface is stable. Sorry, but the GIMP user interface sucks and that urgently needs to change. We have plans to improve it and we are not going to make every change optional just to please some users that are not willing to follow us on the user interface changes. And we are going to make some much more drastic changes in the future. Whenever we do a change we try to be very careful so that we don't break existing work-flows. Sometimes we fail at this and introduce a regression for certain use cases we did not consider. Usually when this happens, we are perfectly willing to make further changes to fix this. This whole discussion is so pointless. You are making a comparison to the Linux kernel that is completely inadequate and at the same time you did not give a single concrete example of a change that you disliked. Or even bothered to explain what you dislike about it. It appears that your only problem is that things are changing. Sorry, but you will have to get along with that. We are not going to stop ourselves from changing the GIMP user interface to the better. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:13 AM, David Marrs wrote: As for customisability? I think that it's probably underestimated. Take the example of me spending half an hour or more on google this evening trying to work out how to enable menu tear-offs in Gnome. As far as I can tell, the feature just isn't there any more gconf-editor, /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_tearoff And it's on 1st page of google searhc result for gtkrc tear-off for me Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Hi, On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 14:52 -0700, drizzt wrote: Just think of the most used piece of code on a GNU/Linux system: the Linux kernel. Didn't you know that the user interface is stable ? How would you feel if between releases the behavior of interfaces changed, and when asking the kernel developers you were told just keep using the old kernel you used to. Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about here. The Linux kernel APIs are changing faster than anything else in the software world. If you had ever maintained a device driver outside the main kernel tree, you wouldn't have chosen the Linux kernel as an example of something that doesn't change its interface between releases. GIMP is very conservative compared to the Linux kernel. Our plug-in API has not seen an incompatible change for five years now. You also probably do not realize how much work an optional change is. Every option that is added doubles the complexity of the code. It is already impossible for us to test all possible configurations that GIMP offers. If we tried to make major interface changes optional, the code would become completely unmaintainable very soon. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Alexandre wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:13 AM, David Marrs wrote: As for customisability? I think that it's probably underestimated. Take the example of me spending half an hour or more on google this evening trying to work out how to enable menu tear-offs in Gnome. As far as I can tell, the feature just isn't there any more gconf-editor, /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_tearoff And it's on 1st page of google searhc result for gtkrc tear-off for me Did you test that? Because it doesn't work for me. ---AV Spam Filtering by M+Guardian - Risk Free Email (TM)--- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 08:02:13PM +0100, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 14:52 -0700, drizzt wrote: Just think of the most used piece of code on a GNU/Linux system: the Linux kernel. Didn't you know that the user interface is stable ? How would you feel if between releases the behavior of interfaces changed, and when asking the kernel developers you were told just keep using the old kernel you used to. Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about here. The Linux kernel APIs are changing faster than anything else in the software world. If you had ever maintained a device driver outside the main kernel tree, you wouldn't have chosen the Linux kernel as an example of something that doesn't change its interface between releases. GIMP is very conservative compared to the Linux kernel. Our plug-in API has not seen an incompatible change for five years now. Still that narrow minded? You obviously didn't read the drizzt's post at all! Drizzt was comparing the linux kernel _user_ interface with the gimp's _user_ interface. As a matter of fact, I personnaly know drizzt and an I can assure you he really knows what he is talking about regarding kernel developping as he does exactly that for a living. You also probably do not realize how much work an optional change is. Every option that is added doubles the complexity of the code. It is already impossible for us to test all possible configurations that GIMP offers. If we tried to make major interface changes optional, the code would become completely unmaintainable very soon. Well, of course, everything could be better if more people would be even allowed to work on gimp. But I guess this won't happen since even confirmed former contributors aren't even allowed to commit trivial patches without having to explain many times what these patches do, and pass many many controls. You did everything to discourage people to contribute, so now, please, don't tell people you need ressources to maintain the whole mess. Cheers, DindinX -- da...@dindinx.net ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Hi, On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 20:29 +0100, David Odin wrote: Still that narrow minded? You obviously didn't read the drizzt's post at all! Drizzt was comparing the linux kernel _user_ interface with the gimp's _user_ interface. As far as I know the kernel doesn't have a user interface in the sense the term is used for a graphical user application such as GIMP. It does provide a lot of interfaces to device drivers and to the higher levels of the operating system though. And these interfaces are changing quite frequently. Perhaps this was a misunderstanding. I don't really understand the purpose of the Linux kernel example. Well, of course, everything could be better if more people would be even allowed to work on gimp. But I guess this won't happen since even confirmed former contributors aren't even allowed to commit trivial patches without having to explain many times what these patches do, and pass many many controls. No idea what you are referring to here. Can you explain to me what you are talking about? Of course there is a patch review process. It would be insane not to have one. But we are trying hard to review patches very fast. Did you really have to wait an unreasonable time to have your patches reviewed? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
David Odin wrote: Drizzt was comparing the linux kernel _user_ interface with the gimp's _user_ interface. Comparing a kernel user interface with an image editor user interface is just plain silly. [...] Well, of course, everything could be better if more people would be even allowed to work on gimp. But I guess this won't happen since even confirmed former contributors aren't even allowed to commit trivial patches without having to explain many times what these patches do, and pass many many controls. You did everything to discourage people to contribute, so now, please, don't tell people you need ressources to maintain the whole mess. I can't let you attack Sven like this without commenting on it. If you are talking about the patch I think you are talking about it was not a trivial patch. And there is nothing wrong with requiring changes to be of high quality. Getting commit access in open source projects is all about trust and the way you are acting is not very strategic if you want to regain trust to commit non-trivial stuff. But then that is of course not what you want. You announced a few months back that you officially quit the GIMP project. All you want to do is taking some kind of revenge by talking shit about Sven. It is pathetic. - Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 08:51:10PM +0100, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 20:29 +0100, David Odin wrote: Still that narrow minded? You obviously didn't read the drizzt's post at all! Drizzt was comparing the linux kernel _user_ interface with the gimp's _user_ interface. As far as I know the kernel doesn't have a user interface in the sense the term is used for a graphical user application such as GIMP. It does provide a lot of interfaces to device drivers and to the higher levels of the operating system though. And these interfaces are changing quite frequently. I won't say that the syscalls or the /proc interfaces are changing that frequently. And when they change, the older behaviour is still available as an option. A device driver isn't really a user of the kernel, but a part of it. Whatever. Perhaps this was a misunderstanding. I don't really understand the purpose of the Linux kernel example. Well, of course, everything could be better if more people would be even allowed to work on gimp. But I guess this won't happen since even confirmed former contributors aren't even allowed to commit trivial patches without having to explain many times what these patches do, and pass many many controls. No idea what you are referring to here. Can you explain to me what you are talking about? Of course there is a patch review process. It would be insane not to have one. But we are trying hard to review patches very fast. Did you really have to wait an unreasonable time to have your patches reviewed? No. I won't explain all that once more since having to explain the same thing over and over instead of doing the real work is precisely why I have quit the gimp development. And it is also why the gimp development is so slow. I now prefer to give my time to some more attractive projects. I'm still a gimp user, though and I'm very desapointed to see which directions it takes. At least, I'm still able to maintain my own private tree when I want a special feature that won't get in because it would just take years to explain to every one why it is useful to me. -- da...@dindinx.net ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Once again, I reply to many posts, and with a long message, but it seems that people are interested in the discussion, so I wont deceive them. Martin Nordholts a écrit : Comparing a kernel user interface with an image editor user interface is just plain silly. I don't think so, but maybe some people have difficulties seeing the parallel, so read ahead please. Sven Neumann a écrit : Hi, On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 20:29 +0100, David Odin wrote: Still that narrow minded? You obviously didn't read the drizzt's post at all! Drizzt was comparing the linux kernel _user_ interface with the gimp's _user_ interface. As far as I know the kernel doesn't have a user interface in the sense the term is used for a graphical user application such as GIMP. So for you a user interface is a GUI ? It does provide a lot of interfaces to device drivers and to the higher levels of the operating system though. And these interfaces are changing quite frequently. I feel like there's a need for some technical information in here. Have you ever heard of kernel space and user space ? The linux kernel code, and all module code, is running in kernel space, while all the remaining parts are in user space. On a linux system, you can take any 2.6 kernel, and still have your system up and running. Even using a 2.4 kernel will be possible, with only a few changes to some administrative tools (modutils and the like). Why ? Because the USER interface is stable. So much that when there is a need for a change, kernel programmers don't do it, they find another way, whatever it costs. The kernel internals are moving, and a lot, but this the user don't care about. you can rewrite gimp every day if you want, nobody (or no user at least) will care, if the user interface is stable. Perhaps this was a misunderstanding. I don't really understand the purpose of the Linux kernel example. It is an example I used on IRC when someone told me to use the old GIMP version if I did not like the new one. And chosed because everybody is using new kernels because of the improvements and the new drivers, which are added but still using the same user interface. If you cannot see the parallel, sorry. Then from your previous email: Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about here. From what you say, I would say I have much more idea than you have. The Linux kernel APIs are changing faster than anything else in the software world. If you had ever maintained a device driver outside the main kernel tree, you wouldn't have chosen the Linux kernel as an example of something that doesn't change its interface between releases. I would say only one thing: Why bother !!! Commit your driver to the kernel, and you'll have no more to do out of the tree !!! Keeping drivers out of the tree is nonsense. GIMP is very conservative compared to the Linux kernel. Our plug-in API has not seen an incompatible change for five years now. So the few developpers have nothing to do, but users have to learn the tool once again after every release ? Am I the only one feeling that there's a problem in this point of view ? You also probably do not realize how much work an optional change is. Every option that is added doubles the complexity of the code. It is already impossible for us to test all possible configurations that GIMP offers. If we tried to make major interface changes optional, the code would become completely unmaintainable very soon. No. Not at all. As I said, being a free software, The GIMP project may have some of the best programmers at hand. Once again, there are more options in the kernel than you can think about, and the code is maintained, maintainable, and often tested. If it's done correctly and early, everything can be tested using test tools. Once again you are saying implicitly that GIMP developers are newbies. Please don't. And making major changes is not required if you spent more time thinking. For example, for the menu, making it dockable with it's docking position being a saved configuration setting, would prevent an option. And it's already done for dialogs, so it's not more work, it should even be less work. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
drizzt wrote: Hi all ! This is a long post, replying to many previous posts, and adding some parts from IRC chats, and some even from discussions with Gimp developers. Hi, Long it was, for sure. Sorry but if you don't want the GIMP UI to evolve and change, don't upgrade to new versions. Basic rules of interaction design applies to both open source and commercial projects. Now, open source and commercial projects can have completely different goals, and often have, but basic rules of interaction design still applies. With all due respect it to me sounds like you have not looked into interaction design at all and is just ranting based on your highly personal preferences. Looking into the world of interaction design will give you valuable insights. I recommend you to read the book The Inmates Are Running the Asylum by Alan Cooper. It is not a handbook on how to design interactive systems, but more of an eye-opener of what's wrong with todays products and processes as far as interaction design goes. In that book he addresses a lot of the points you are making. BR, Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Martin Nordholts wrote: world of interaction design will give you valuable insights. I recommend you to read the book The Inmates Are Running the Asylum by Alan Cooper. It is not a handbook on how to design interactive systems, but I wouldn't bother. Whatever insights are contained in this book are completely clouded by the outright mistakes and predudice it containts. It is little more than a rant in itself. Graeme Gill. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
gimp-developer-boun...@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu wrote: Hi all ! This is a long post, replying to many previous posts, and adding some parts from IRC chats, and some even from discussions with Gimp developers. ... I have a degree of sympathy with this post although it seems to go to the other extreme. Backwards compatibility *is* overrated. Autotools is a great example of what happens if you don't trim the crud out of your software. No doubt, I can compile Gimp on every Unix platform ever conceived between now and 1972 but I still have to learn about 4 different languages before I can begin to start understanding how it works, let alone deciphering the scripts. Call me an idiot if you like, but it shouldn't be easier to learn the finer points of C++ than the tool that simply builds it. On the other hand, we have KDE 4. Plenty of improvements, no doubt, but no users left to appreciate them. :) As for customisability? I think that it's probably underestimated. Take the example of me spending half an hour or more on google this evening trying to work out how to enable menu tear-offs in Gnome. As far as I can tell, the feature just isn't there any more. Luckily for me, canvas right-click still provides the feature. I needed it, btw, because I wanted to add several guides to my project, one after the other. Rather than having to navigate all the way to that menu item every time, it's much easier to just have it available on the screen. That's not the only use of this feature, btw. Another good use is for learning keyboard shortcuts. No need to hover the mouse over an icon for half a second; just glance at the menu. Like I said, I don't know what's happened to this (really nice) feature but I did find a clue in some Java/GTK SDK documentation which states that usability studies have concluded that menu tear-offs are a bad idea and should be avoided. Oh dear, I thought. Someone's been conducting usability studies. Not that I have anything particularly against UI studies, but the method had better be sound, the assumptions had better be correct, and the results had better be applied appropriately. If the conclusion comes as a surprise, re-examine the experiment...carefully. Anyway, getting back to the Gimp, I'd be willing to bet real money that whatever ideas you have about a typical Gimp user are probably wrong. By all means, design for whatever you think the common use case is likely to be but remember that Gimp is (to borrow a programming term) a low-level IMP. That makes it even more likely that usage patterns from one user to the next will be radically different. If you don't enable Gimp's users to do the things that you can't think of, you'll just have non-plussed Gimpers. If you take away those things? Well, good luck with all the hate. :) ---AV Spam Filtering by M+Guardian - Risk Free Email (TM)--- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Hi all ! This is a long post, replying to many previous posts, and adding some parts from IRC chats, and some even from discussions with Gimp developers. Some may think this is rubbish, others that I'm no one to say so, but as a matter of fact, I don't care. read ahead and have fun using GIMP, which is an excellent image manipulation program :) First remember what GIMP means ! GNU Image Manipulation Program And what GNU is, it's goal(s) and the philosophy behind. And much more important When you introduce a new UI feature, make it optional When you remove or change one part of the UI, make it optional instead, and do a first release with the choice on. Those who want will remove it, the others won't. Then do a second release, keeping user options, and with a new default set to what you think is better. This is THE way to perform modifications. Just think of the most used piece of code on a GNU/Linux system: the Linux kernel. Didn't you know that the user interface is stable ? How would you feel if between releases the behavior of interfaces changed, and when asking the kernel developers you were told just keep using the old kernel you used to. Please, keep this in mind when thinking about the user interface of GIMP. * On Tue Mar 10 08:14:44 PDT 2009 hOSHI wrote Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: A tool should work out of box and help getting the work done right away. When people rely on customization instead, they *usually* create interfaces that require customization *before* you actually can start doing anything. Okay i agree on that. I really would love gimp to work as i need it to do right from the start. but as many like it to work otherwise that won't be happening soon ;) It should !!! If developers go on as I stated in my introduction, it would !!! A new user will have the said to be better new interface, and old users will be able to go on using their tools, and change the behavior when a new one is better for them. This is creating good UI. * On Tue Mar 10 08:01:32 PDT 2009 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote A tool should work out of box and help getting the work done right away. But if each time you take your tool out of the box, it's behavior has changed, you cannot use it. So maybe you are creating a thing new users can play with, but please keep in mind that there are people currently using the tool !!! When people rely on customization instead, they *usually* create interfaces that require customization *before* you actually can start doing anything. What's wrong with this ? It's the case for any decent window manager, and they are the proeminent UI of your computer. One told me that windows' window manager does not need configuration. this made me laugh. And a lot. If the goal is to reproduce this please do it with something else (Paint ?). Remember once again that GIMP is GNU's image manipulation program, not microsoft's one. * On Tue Mar 10 03:21:45 PDT 2009 hOSHI wrote In a professional prog like Gimp there is more of a need to fulfill personal needs than in a simple browser or a image viewer. Yes, this is right ! A browser is here to fulfill one single task, and should do it on the spot. A complex tool like gimp cannot. If you want to, please use paint. I will do a parallel (some may have difficulties understanding, but I don't care) I am working with people who need UI to control tools, and have human lives in their hands (yes, I'm speaking of medical tools) When they try a new tool, they don't even care of the default configuration. What they look for is simple, and it resumes in two points: * does it do the same thing as the previous one I used ? * can I tune it so it does it the way I'm used to. (Or would like to) If you do not reply to these two points, then your tool is just good to the garbage. Even if a new user can use it out of the box Even if you have an improvement that will change the face of the world Keep in mind that users ask others what tool they use. Keep in mind that new user will always ask older ones about how to do this or that. If the older ones can't answer, then the newer one will drop the tool. On Tue Mar 10 03:02:09 PDT 2009 Michael Schumacher wrote Von: hOSHI mutenhoshi at gmail.com Then why can i define my own window and status bar format in gimp? There have been comments that there's too much information shown there, and most of it isn't needed, so imagine what might change in that regard... :) Then make it customizable, or dockable, or optional But do not DROP it On Tue Mar 10 02:39:12 PDT 2009 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 12:33 PM, hOSHI wrote: It's a good practice to avoid user comfort through customization? Customization is overrated. ??? Customization is the essence of GNU/Linux systems. It's what makes their interest. Keep it in mind please. On Tue Mar 10 02:18:13 PDT 2009 peter sikking wrote hOSHI wrote: peter sikking wrote:
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:52 AM, drizzt wrote: A tool should work out of box and help getting the work done right away. But if each time you take your tool out of the box, it's behavior has changed, you cannot use it. So maybe you are creating a thing new users can play with, but please keep in mind that there are people currently using the tool !!! I feel justified to reply only to this one, but it basically covers all of your email. You seem to be separating users into two groups: 1) those who like GIMP the way it is now and do not want any other UI and 2) new users who don't care what the previous UI looked like. And you seem to be in the first group. Too bad, because this distinction is incorrect. There's plenty of actual GIMP users who desperately want a better UI , a lot of users who kind of don't mind a new UI and a whole lot of users who don't know yet how much they will love a new UI. Now regarding old tool/new tool. Do you know what is one of most disgusting things in applications like ACD Canvas that are over 20 years old? It's the ugly way their developers never ever refine them. Just like you say they keep all the old tools, all the old behaviours, everything they don't feel comfortable to throw away. And it piles up. How about A hotkey that is in use by three (sic!) different tools depending on tool group? How about 3-level nested toolbox? How about separate erasers for bitmap and vector objects? These applications become a horror to use for both old-timers and novices. Now please give this a lot of thought before replying. P.S. Shouting is of no help in this list. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
peter sikking wrote: that is why we will have _one_ setting in the View menu, that sets the overall strategy to either one-window or multi-window. all further behaviour follows from that. There could be more settings in the preferences though. Couldn't there? looking forward to that version ;) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22430291.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
hOSHI wrote: peter sikking wrote: that is why we will have _one_ setting in the View menu, that sets the overall strategy to either one-window or multi-window. all further behaviour follows from that. There could be more settings in the preferences though. Couldn't there? it is good design practice to avoid that like the plague. --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
peter sikking wrote: it is good design practice to avoid that like the plague. It's a good practice to avoid user comfort through customization? Did i get that right? -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22430746.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Von: hOSHI mutenho...@gmail.com Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Customization is overrated. Then why can i define my own window and statusbar format in gimp? ;] There have been comments that there's too much information shown there, and most of it isn't needed, so imagine what might change in that regard... :) Regards, Michael -- Computer Bild Tarifsieger! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a -- Computer Bild Tarifsieger! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Michael Schumacher wrote: There have been comments that there's too much information shown there, and most of it isn't needed, so imagine what might change in that regard... :) i like customization. As long as it is well structured (and maybe accessible only if advanced options is checked) in a professional prog like Gimp there is more of a need to fulfill personal needs than in a simple browser or a imageviewer. i often changed programs i used, because i couldn't get it do to what i want or need. so customization isn't always bad, i guess it depends on the intended audience. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22431423.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 1:21 PM, hOSHI wrote: (and maybe accessible only if advanced options is checked) Which is also usually considered as bad practice. Sorry :) Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Which is also usually considered as bad practice. Sorry :) considered by whom? in a professional tool there need to be some settings. photoshop/3ds max/blender/maya/openoffice(grin) they just need to be structured right. maybe settings that are not so important should go for important ones. In that i would agree. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22431626.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
I think it's not about customization or not. Is about avoiding a cluttered prefs menu with gazillions of options and provide smart ways to customize instead. Look at this for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5IjbClO8Sk (the upcoming Blender 2.5) There you have an example of a highly customizable environment without the need of marking checkboxes in the preferences section. Gez ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Guillermo Espertino wrote: I think it's not about customization or not. Is about avoiding a cluttered prefs menu with gazillions of options and provide smart ways to customize instead. Look at this for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5IjbClO8Sk (the upcoming Blender 2.5) There you have an example of a highly customizable environment without the need of marking checkboxes in the preferences section. that is an example of just put it as you like it as you go along. although the pop-up menu to set the content of the areas is weird... --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 1:37 PM, hOSHI wrote: Which is also usually considered as bad practice. Sorry :) considered by whom? in a professional tool there need to be some settings. In my long-time observation people who express their opinion in the lines of fine with me as long as you make it optional and get what they ask for end up with ultimately cluttered UIs. A tool should work out of box and help getting the work done right away. When people rely on customization instead, they *usually* create interfaces that require customization *before* you actually can start doing anything. Can you still recall the mess called This is the first time you run GIMP, so go make yourself a pint of coffee, sit back and go through this long and stupid wizard? This is why I say that customization is overrated. What I suggest you is to look really well at your proposal: it basically boils down to making a good deal of proposed functionality not obvious. And while having side-by-side views definitely has a place in workflow of an art-director or a collage designer, hiding correspondent prefs would be a nightmare. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: A tool should work out of box and help getting the work done right away. When people rely on customization instead, they *usually* create interfaces that require customization *before* you actually can start doing anything. Okay i agree on that. I really would love gimp to work as i need it to do right from the start. but as many like it to work otherwise that won't be happening soon ;) but with dialogs dockable as a default (without settings) i would not mind. (dockable in a main window i mean) ;) Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: What I suggest you is to look really well at your proposal: it basically boils down to making a good deal of proposed functionality not obvious. And while having side-by-side views definitely has a place in workflow of an art-director or a collage designer, hiding correspondent prefs would be a nightmare. okay, i see your point. so let's not use preferences but a nice icon to enable that view ;) i think i like that even better. (and just one (maybe clustered) transform-tool icon instead of the 6 now) ;) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22436485.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Mirai Warren wrote: Sorry if this was a bit long-winded and tangential, but I hope I clarified my original point Sorry, but i still cannot see why a tabbed one-window docked-dialog interface (with option of multiple gimp-windows and maybe a splitable view for two or more images) would not be better than the current n-windows, n-tasks interface so many complain about. i can only say: I use Photoshop many years now. I love the CS3 interface (which i tried to simulate a little bit in my screen above). It's got a very fast workflow and is costumizable though cutom views (savable). The only thing i would love in Photoshop that's still missing are tabs to faster access different open images. So why not tabs for quicker navigation? -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22134216.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
peter sikking wrote: that is why we will have _one_ setting in the View menu, that sets the overall strategy to either one-window or multi-window. then, i think, there will be nothing to complain about anymore ;) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22135121.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Mirai Warren wrote: How do tabs work with the idea of docked dialogue windows? Hi, i think (and would really love Gimp to look) like this: http://www.nabble.com/file/p22117088/gimp-wannabe02.jpeg It's a bit better than the photoshop interface because you can always switch between images with only one click. A good idea might be a compare view with more than one image inside. There is also always the possibility of opening 2 gimp-applications at one time. greetinx hOSHI* -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22117088.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
2009/2/20 hOSHI mutenho...@gmail.com: Mirai Warren wrote: How do tabs work with the idea of docked dialogue windows? Hi, i think (and would really love Gimp to look) like this: http://www.nabble.com/file/p22117088/gimp-wannabe02.jpeg ... what about this? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wmx3OgdATU0/RzAo7-Kcm4I/AXc/a1GlaE7tXWE/s1600-h/Gimp-brainstorms-3.jpg Dockable windows should be dock-able on the sides too and the image windows should behave like dock-able windows. That way, you can almost build the UI the way you want. -- Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal http://lankerisms.blogspot.com (+91) 9945036093 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
... Hmmm.. the list doesn't set a reply-to? Here's the answer again anyway. I'd be rather careful with this approach. It'll appeal to some, especially power users will probably embrace it, but all the flexibility could also become a nuisance. Please have a look at the choices Blender has made, if you're a long term Blender user (like me) then please think back at the time when you began using it. Eventually, you get used to it and start to like it, but it's quite a hurdle out of the box. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just be careful with the idea of letting the user 'build the UI he wants', it could easily get out of hand. Greetings, Fredrik. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 16:22, Laxminarayan Kamath kamat...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/2/20 hOSHI mutenho...@gmail.com: Mirai Warren wrote: How do tabs work with the idea of docked dialogue windows? Hi, i think (and would really love Gimp to look) like this: http://www.nabble.com/file/p22117088/gimp-wannabe02.jpeg ... what about this? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wmx3OgdATU0/RzAo7-Kcm4I/AXc/a1GlaE7tXWE/s1600-h/Gimp-brainstorms-3.jpg Dockable windows should be dock-able on the sides too and the image windows should behave like dock-able windows. That way, you can almost build the UI the way you want. -- Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal http://lankerisms.blogspot.com (+91) 9945036093 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Laxminarayan Kamath wrote: what about this? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wmx3OgdATU0/RzAo7-Kcm4I/AXc/a1GlaE7tXWE/s1600-h/Gimp-brainstorms-3.jpg I think that's almost the same as i thought. Important for me is, that u can define a default behaviour for new opened images. What did u think about that compare-view? Adobe Brigde has such a function. greetinx hOSHI* -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22122897.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Fredrik Alströmer-2 wrote: I'd be rather careful with this approach. It'll appeal to some, especially power users will probably embrace it Did you mean my Approach? What's power-user like in it? It's like standard photoshop. I think Gimp as it is is only open for power users that don't mind n-windows in the taskbar. I mind ;) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22123294.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Fredrik Alströmer wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just be careful with the idea of letting the user 'build the UI he wants', it could easily get out of hand. now that this discussion fires up and that it has been casually road-mapped for 2.10... I also see that this can easily can get out of hand, but I am committed no to not let it. That means that I will be aiming for a system with a low number of settings that naturally follows users' actions and keeps layouts together. side-by-side comparison: we'll see if that can be done without confusion about what the active image is. a mix of multiple windows with multiple tabs: we'll see if that can be done without confusion about how the next (new) image opens (tab or window?). I do not intent to introduce more than 2 new menu items in the menubar, so that really puts the brakes on how out of hand this is going to get. --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
I've been following this thread with interest (as a user). One extremely common action I perform is to grab one layer from another image (in the layer palette) and drag it into a different image. How would that action be performed with this proposed tabbed image interface? -Rob A Hi, i think (and would really love Gimp to look) like this: http://www.nabble.com/file/p22117088/gimp-wannabe02.jpeg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Rob Antonishen wrote: I've been following this thread with interest (as a user). One extremely common action I perform is to grab one layer from another image (in the layer palette) and drag it into a different image. How would that action be performed with this proposed tabbed image interface? Drag to tab's caption to open that image, drop. Works just fine in gazillion of other tabbed apps :) Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
RobA wrote: One extremely common action I perform is to grab one layer from another image (in the layer palette) and drag it into a different image. How would that action be performed with this proposed tabbed image interface? -Rob A Hey, i know exactly what you mean. I do that in Photoshop. Maybe you could drag it on the TAB itself? Maybe it's another point for the compare-view i mentioned. Maybe that could be accomplished with two open Gimp-Applications... Maybe... someday ;) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dockable-Dialogs-Should-be-Dockable-Everywhere-tp21279278p22127261.html Sent from the Gimp Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Heh, I almost forgot that I made that comment. What I was trying to say was that tabs were a different topic than docking dialogues. Besides, if it were up to me, every image could have a customised set-up for its tools and information windows to fit the need for of the task at hand, although I can already see a few logistical issues with that. But concerning tabbed image windows, be sure to evaluate the usage of other tabbed apps before considering that the gimp should have them. In your browser windows and text editors the majority of manipulation is part of the nature of the media; that is, your tools are in your work itself. With images, you work with a number of different tools that are commonly accessed by ways outside of the image (in menu bars, tool box buttons, palette selectors, and various other dialogues) and putting those access points in different places would seriously cut down on ease of use (a big problem with multiple windows with multiple menu bars). 3D modelling and CADD programs (such as blender and autocad) can definitely provide a lot of guidance here due to their similar paradigms. Note their success--like heavy reliance on keyboard short-cuts and (partially) homogeneous modes of interaction--but also their failings--steep learning curves and technical barriers to repetitive tasks. Sorry if this was a bit long-winded and tangential, but I hope I clarified my original point --MW ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
How do tabs work with the idea of docked dialogue windows? Wouldn't each window have the same (or optionally specialised) arrangements of dialogues for each image window? I mean, the main point of the program is editing images so the ui should be focused around the image window. --MW ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 02:28 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: 2009/1/5 Jakub Friedl wrote: I don't really see a problem with having a small image in a big maximized tab-based window. screen estate is often precious. i often want to see more images at the same time This isn't really a problem. GTK+ widget extensions like CurlyAnkles allow both tabbed and tiled content. The real issue is that sometimes one wants to see (or work on) more than one image at a time, or e.g. to compare two views with different filters. Multiple windows each of which can have tabs might work, like a tabbed Web browser. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: 2009/1/5 Martin Nordholts wrote: I myself picture a toggle in the Windows sub-menu that switches between a one-window tab based layout and the current multi-window layout. me too ;^} Is usability team planning to work on this? we plan to work on this when it is road-mapped... --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
I would love to be able to dock all dialogs into the main GIMP window, including the toolbar. The only thing I dislike about the current interface is that there are three windows instead of one. It would be a major improvement if I could simply dock the toolbar and dialogs into the main window. - Matt ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Matt Buscemi wrote: I would love to be able to dock all dialogs into the main GIMP window, including the toolbar. The only thing I dislike about the current interface is that there are three windows instead of one. It would be a major improvement if I could simply dock the toolbar and dialogs into the main window. - Matt There have been discussions about this and this feature will probably be implemented at some point. - Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Matt Buscemi wrote: It would be a major improvement if I could simply dock the toolbar and dialogs into the main window. But what should happen if you have multiple image windows open? Having the docks attached to only one of them probably isn't very useful... -- Kurt Bernhard Pruenner --- Haendelstrasse 17 --- 4020 Linz --- Austria ...It might be written Mindfuck, but it's spelt L-A-I-N... np: Vangelis - Vadavarot (Blade Runner Trilogy - BR 25 (Disc 3)) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Kurt Pruenner wrote: Matt Buscemi wrote: It would be a major improvement if I could simply dock the toolbar and dialogs into the main window. But what should happen if you have multiple image windows open? Having the docks attached to only one of them probably isn't very useful... The proposed solution is a tab-based interface. - Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
Jakub Friedl wrote: But what should happen if you have multiple image windows open? Having the docks attached to only one of them probably isn't very useful... The proposed solution is a tab-based interface. How can tabbed interface show more images at once? And how can it provide a big window for a big image and small window for a small image? For me, this is a problem even in Firefox... but in an image editor? Jakub Friedl You can make a tab-based interface in a great number of ways and there is no decision on exactly how it should look or work, only that it might make sense with a tab based interface. I myself picture a toggle in the Windows sub-menu that switches between a one-window tab based layout and the current multi-window layout. Maybe that's a good idea, maybe it's not. I don't really see a problem with having a small image in a big maximized tab-based window. But again, basically no decision on how to do this has been taken. It is not even 100% it will be done at all... Also please keep the discussion on the list. BR, Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
I don't really see a problem with having a small image in a big maximized tab-based window. screen estate is often precious. i often want to see more images at the same time Also please keep the discussion on the list. sorry, too fast clicking in an oversimplified GUI interface :) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dockable Dialogs Should be Dockable Everywhere
2009/1/5 Jakub Friedl wrote: I don't really see a problem with having a small image in a big maximized tab-based window. screen estate is often precious. i often want to see more images at the same time This isn't really a problem. GTK+ widget extensions like CurlyAnkles allow both tabbed and tiled content. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
