Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[Alexander Rabtchevich]

Greg wrote:
> --- Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> I don't think though that we need more people pointing out the
>> 
> obvious
>   
>> flaws in GIMP.
>> 
>
> Obvious to whom?  Do you speak for the list members?
>
>   
I think this theme has been arisen here many times. And I believe the 
developers are bothered answering the same question  for the n-ty times. 
You can check it by searching in this list. Moreover, GEGL (floating 
point channel values and procedural layers) has been mentioned in this 
thread as to be embedded in GIMP in the next 2.6 version and even the 
roadmap has been explained several times.  Take a look at http://gegl.org .

What  do you really need to be told here? The developers are aware about 
more than 8 bits per channel and procedural layers. They promised to  
make it possible in the next GIMP version. GEGL has that features 
already implemented. So what more information do you  need?

If you just want to state that more than 8 bits per channel is good, the 
developers know that fact. I think it is mostly a holy war, as I can 
quoter Dan Margulis which said (my translation from Russian which is in 
turn translation from original English I do not have):

"During the last 3 years more than dozen of different experts, including me, 
have been doing serious attempts to find any evidences which testify to the 
benefits of corrections in 16-bit mode. The experts took the very different 
color photos from the real life, applied every possible treatment methods 
trying to find the tracks of the fact that this method provides better results 
than 8-bits one. How did we taunt the poor files! But we have not managed to 
find any benefits".

So I believe the benefits exist, but their value is too much overspoken!

>> We are all very well aware of them...
>> 
>
> We are?
>
>   
>> ...and you are just stealing our precious time.
>> 
>
> Again, do you speak for the rest of us?
>
> Now, granted, I'm fairly new here so I don't know what role you play in
> the GIMP world, but so far the only person I've seen bitching about
> "noise" is you.  I find these discussions informative, and as a GIMP
> user, useful.  As long as people don't start getting into how the
> source code does this or that, I don't have a problem the current line
> of discussions.
>
>
>   
Sven is the project leader and main contributor to the code. You can 
simply browse via
http://svn.gnome.org/svn/gimp/trunk/ChangeLog
to proven it.

-- 

With respect
Alexander Rabtchevich

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Re: [Gimp-user] remember last location for "save as", "save a copy", "save", "open"

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Thu, 2007-10-04 at 17:12 +0200, Raphaël Quinet wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:20:33 +0200, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If an image already has a filename associated to it, then open the Save
> > file-chooser in that folder. Otherwise use the folder of the most recent
> > save operation. Would that make sense?
> 
> Definitely.  That should be the default behavior.
> 
> If needed, the current behavior (always use the last directory) can be
> emulated with a temporary bookmark.  The opposite is not true: if you
> are working on several images and want to save each of them in the
> directory they came from, then the current file-chooser behavior gets
> in the way.

Huh? In GIMP 2.4 the Save As file-chooser opens in the directory where
you loaded the image from. Your last sentence seems to imply that this
is the behavior that you desire and I don't see why you describe it as
'gets in the way'.


Sven


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[Gimp-user] FW: Question on copy from selection

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Apologies if people get this duplicated but I didn't receive my own message and 
thought it may have been lost.

--

Hi there,

I have a question on copying a portion of an image in gimp.  First, a little 
context.  I needed to create a layer with only some features in an image.  For 
that, I first selected a suitable area in the image using the "Free Select" 
tool.  I then copied its contents (Edit -> Copy) and pasted it (Edit -> Paste) 
in a new layer (Layer -> New Layer).  This creates a new layer with only the 
desired features, as can be verified making the new layer the only visible 
layer.  Now, if I go to the "Channel Dialog", I can see the RGB and alpha 
channels looking right, with only the selected features there.  However, if I 
make a copy of one of the RGB channels (right-click on the R channel, for 
example, and duplicate it), there is more than just those features, as can be 
verified by making it the only visible channel.  

My question then is if this is a correct behavior and if so, how can I make a 
copy of a selection with only the contents of that selection?  Thank you,

Hermano

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Re: [Gimp-user] photo resolution

[Asif Lodhi]

Hi Leon,

> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:57:39 +1000
> From: Leon Brooks GIMP <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] photo resolution
> To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
> ..
> One possible/partial answer is to use some JavaScript to read
> the window's dimensions & alter the width & height parameters
> of the  tag to scale whatever you provide, so it fits.

Though I am not sure but may be you can find a CSS attribute or
something for this task instead of employing JavaScript.

--
Best regards,

Asif
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Re: [Gimp-user] plug-in vs. script

[David Gowers]

A plugin is an executable - ie. it's a program you can run, like you
can run Inkscape or GIMP.
A script is a set of text instructions which are run by a script
interpreter (script-fu).

Thus, it's easy to tell the difference:
* If it has a .scm extension, it's a script
* Failing that, if you can open it in a text editor and it looks
somewhat readable, it's a script.

On 10/5/07, Bettina Lechner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi gimpusers!
>
> please, what is the difference between a plug-in and a script? I am asking
> because I never know if I should copy a plug-in (e.g. from the
> registry.gimp.org - site) in to the plug-in or the script folder. I'ts
> always a try and error thing. And most of the times it's working when I am
> copying the plug-in into the scripts folder. but what is then a plug-in?
>
> thanks for explanations,
> tina
>
> --
>
> newhouse -  new media
> Bettina Karena Lechner
> neue str 16, 2565 neuhaus
> austria
>
> mobil: +43 660 46 25 0 25
> tel.: +43 26 74 878 72
> fax: +43 2674 878 81
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.newhouse.at
> ---
> Der Anfang ist die Hälfte des Ganzen.
> Aristoteles (384 - 322 v. Chr)
>
>
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Re: [Gimp-user] captcha

[Greg]

--- mike reqavey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> please point me in the direction of how I could make a captcha around
> 8.5 x 11.0 inches. 



\
  ---'
/


Sorry.  Couldn't resist.  :)


   

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Re: [Gimp-user] Image resizing based upon image content

[Konstantin Svist]

Daniel Hornung wrote:
> On Thursday 04 October 2007, Konstantin Svist wrote:
>   
>> Kevin Cozens wrote:
>> 
>>> Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>>   
 There is an amazing video describing an image resizing algorithm that
 removes (or adds) pixels based upon their importance to the subjecto
 of the photo. Can this be implemented in The Gimp?
 
>
> http://liquidrescale.wikidot.com/
> and the video for it is here
> http://liquidrescale.wikidot.com/en:examples
>
> Only problem now:  It's located in the layers menu, which should be changed 
> to 
> filters->something
>   
Actually, I think it's a feature.
See, it uses different layers to mark areas which should be preserved 
and areas to be removed (just paint it with paintbrush and go).
Unfortunately, it's nowhere near as fast as the one shown in the video. 
And, as a corollary, it can't be used to see the difference while resizing.
Someone mentioned (on some blog) that this plugin uses some generic math 
library and would work better with specialized algorithms.




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Re: [Gimp-user] photo resolution

[Bob Long]

From: "David Heino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> If I am producing images for the web, is 72 dpi still sufficient across 
> all
> possible monitors--a little lap top screen to a large screen HDTV?

Read here: http://scantips.com/no72dpi.html
More information about resolution, "DPI" etc. from the main site: 
http://scantips.com/

-- 
Bob Long 

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Re: [Gimp-user] photo resolution

[Konstantin Svist]

David Heino wrote:
> If I am producing images for the web, is 72 dpi still sufficient 
> across all possible monitors--a little lap top screen to a large 
> screen HDTV?

DPI has nothing to do with screen resolution. On screen, most images are 
displayed pixel-for-pixel (unless the application is told to resize the 
image). Unless you specify the resize in HTML, most (if not all) 
browsers will display your image pixel-for-pixel. This is why talking 
about DPI when saving "for the web" is meaningless.

DPI *is* relevant when an image is scanned or printed. It is also 
sometimes relevant for fonts rendered by your computer. If you tell your 
system your DPI in regards to font size, it will change the font size to 
make it easier to view -- but there are 2 problems with that: the fonts 
might look fuzzy (reasonably easy to fix) and many programs will not 
display their content correctly because their programmers did not 
realize that the user might scale their fonts.


As far as saving "for the web," as others mentioned you should think in 
pixels. Things to keep in mind:
* users with large screens might resize their browser windows to be much 
smaller
* users on dialup (there are still a lot of them) really hate large images
* some users might even turn off images while browsing (so please make 
good use of alt property)


Hope this helps
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Re: [Gimp-user] Image resizing based upon image content

[Daniel Hornung]

On Thursday 04 October 2007, Konstantin Svist wrote:
> Kevin Cozens wrote:
> > Dotan Cohen wrote:
> >> There is an amazing video describing an image resizing algorithm that
> >> removes (or adds) pixels based upon their importance to the subjecto
> >> of the photo. Can this be implemented in The Gimp?

http://liquidrescale.wikidot.com/
and the video for it is here
http://liquidrescale.wikidot.com/en:examples

Only problem now:  It's located in the layers menu, which should be changed to 
filters->something


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Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP learning sites

[Leon Brooks GIMP]

On Friday 05 October 2007 00:22:59 carol irvin wrote:
> http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/Gimp/OptimisingImagesForWeb?
> topic=WebHome 

> http://gimp.org/tutorials/

> http://meetthegimp.org/?cat=8

> http://www.gimpguru.org/

> http://gimp-savvy.com/BOOK/

> http://gug.sunsite.dk/

All mookbarked now, thank you! (-:

Cheers; Leon
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Re: [Gimp-user] photo resolution

[Leon Brooks GIMP]

On Friday 05 October 2007 00:03:14 David Heino wrote:
> is 72 dpi still sufficient across all possible monitors--a
> little lap top screen to a large screen HDTV?

There ain't no simple answer to that.

A simple laptop screen starts at about 1024x768 pixels (dots)
so a 72DPI picture to cover that entirely would be about 14
inches by 11 inches. You don't want to cover that much in a
web page, because there will be some actual page surrounding
the image, plus web browser window frames etc.

My wife's 19-inch CRT is set to about 2000x1500 pixels, so the
answer for that is about double.

Anyone using even larger monitors will be more than accustomed
to stuff not fitting.

One possible/partial answer is to use some JavaScript to read
the window's dimensions & alter the width & height parameters
of the  tag to scale whatever you provide, so it fits.

To get really fancy, provide several different images & have
your JS select the closest fit & scale that.

Cheers; Leon
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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: national park pictures (art & psychiatry)

[Leon Brooks GIMP]

On Friday 05 October 2007 04:21:32 carol irvin wrote:
>  I've always suspected that this is because art is my escape from reality.

Ah, well, at least you know what that is... & that an Open & Free
escape is much safer & more useful than one of those complex
psycho-whatsisnames. (-:

Cheers; Leon
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Re: [Gimp-user] dodge & burn tutorial?

[Rolf Steinort]

Am Donnerstag, den 04.10.2007, 21:03 +0100 schrieb norman:
> > On Thursday 04 October 2007 13:51:41 Geoffrey wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes on my install, it's the last icon, looks like a small black ball
> > > with an extension on it.  Keystroke shortcut is: Shift+D
> > 
> > Thanks..I know gimp has it, BUT I'm looking for a tutorial.
> 
> Why not ask meetthegimp, he does some great tutorials.
> 
> Norman

I did a bit on dodge and burning - not with the tool (I hate it!) but
with a layer in overlay mode: http://meetthegimp.org/?p=47

It' video - so nothing to read up. And the imgage was made by Normans
son. ;-)


Rolf 


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Re: [Gimp-user] dodge & burn tutorial?

[norman]

> On Thursday 04 October 2007 13:51:41 Geoffrey wrote:
> 
> > Yes on my install, it's the last icon, looks like a small black ball
> > with an extension on it.  Keystroke shortcut is: Shift+D
> 
> Thanks..I know gimp has it, BUT I'm looking for a tutorial.

Why not ask meetthegimp, he does some great tutorials.

Norman
> 

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Re: [Gimp-user] Image resizing based upon image content

[Konstantin Svist]

Kevin Cozens wrote:
> Dotan Cohen wrote:
>   
>> There is an amazing video describing an image resizing algorithm that
>> removes (or adds) pixels based upon their importance to the subjecto
>> of the photo. Can this be implemented in The Gimp?
>> 
> Of course it can be implemented in GIMP. It just takes someone with the time 
> and ability to write the code for a plug-in that implements the algorithm.
>   



Looks like someone has implemented it already:
http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=5479
http://zinx.xmms.org/colorize/

Trying to compile the supporting libraries.. it's a PITA, unfortunately.


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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[Greg]

--- Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think though that we need more people pointing out the
obvious
> flaws in GIMP. 

Obvious to whom?  Do you speak for the list members?

> We are all very well aware of them...

We are?

> ...and you are just stealing our precious time.

Again, do you speak for the rest of us?

Now, granted, I'm fairly new here so I don't know what role you play in
the GIMP world, but so far the only person I've seen bitching about
"noise" is you.  I find these discussions informative, and as a GIMP
user, useful.  As long as people don't start getting into how the
source code does this or that, I don't have a problem the current line
of discussions.


  

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Re: [Gimp-user] dodge & burn tutorial?

[Gracia M. Littauer]

On Thursday 04 October 2007 13:51:41 Geoffrey wrote:

> Yes on my install, it's the last icon, looks like a small black ball
> with an extension on it.  Keystroke shortcut is: Shift+D

Thanks..I know gimp has it, BUT I'm looking for a tutorial.

-- 
Gracia...Cooleemee, NC   Registered Linux user #263390 -ZENWALK 4.4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mynameistaken/
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carrying the cross- Sinclair Lewis
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Re: [Gimp-user] floating selection--how it arose

[Greg]

--- carol irvin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The way I cropped was to use the horizontal selection marquee tool
> and then pressed Image>Crop in the menu of the image.  When the crop 
> was completed, I had my nice cropped image BUT I also had a floating 
> layer and thus 2 layers in the layers palette.  The only tool which 
> would appear on the image thereafter was the move tool.  Until I
found
> the anchoring command, I was dead in the water.

You don't need the Selection tool.  Go right to the Crop tool and
you'll be all set.


   

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[Gimp-user] Fwd: national park pictures (art & psychiatry)

[carol irvin]

would you believe i won an award for one of those and from the park itself
no less?  LOL

i will be the first to admit that i am at home in the abstract, surreal
world and the closer you put me to realism artistically, the worse I get.
 I've always suspected that this is because art is my escape from reality.


I don't have a tremendous amount of ego invested in art.  My psychiatrist
back in 1980 suggested I take up art as a way to alleviate unipolar
depression, which I've had since a late teen (genetically runs in family
tree and both my nephews have had to contend with it also plus my
grandfather).  For many decades now, by using the correct drugs (zoloft and
buspar) plus using the art (which triggers the right side of my brain into
action, instead of the left side where the depression is), my depression has
stayed in complete remission.  the only fear my oncologist had with my
undergoing severe chemo was that the depression would resurface and that i
would kill myself.  i told him that as long as I did the art work and took
the 2 drugs, I didn't think it would.  I was right.  I remained depression
free throughout 24 agonizing weeks of leading edge colon cancer chemo for
colon cancer 2A..


In sum, it is hard to have ego about art work when it has already saved your
life more than once!  Both my psychiatrist and I were equally flabergasted
to discover that I had some ability at the art.  We hadn't planned on that.
 It was a therapeutic maneuver solely and he got me started with Betty
Edwards' DRAWING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BRAIN.  this book and her classes
have turned many people who thought they had no ability in quite good
artists.  she believes all people have art ability, as do I.


I've also discovered over the decades that I can never predict what someone
is going to like.  The purple one of the tree in river, in the natural park
pictures, was picked by a long time friend of mine as his birthday gift to
hang in his office at the US Navy Yard where he is a head electrical
engineer working on submarines. That is about the last image I thought he
would have picked in a million, billion years.  I simply don't have a clue
as to what someone else will like when I throw the work up for exhibit.  It
is a huge mystery to me.  I rarely even think about it anymore I am so
clueless about this.  When I used to have my work in art museum shows, I was
always extremely puzzled by what the jurors accepted and rejected.  I
thought my most creative work was the most frequently rejected.  I don't
think anyone knows anything when it comes to "judging" creative work.  It is
all a crapshoot.


carol

On 10/4/07, Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>
> --- carol irvin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I know it is terribly easy for me to end up with mud after I overdo
> it
> > with all the plug-ins, styles, custom shapes and so forth that I've
> > amassed in the PS program.
>
> Like your national park pics? :)  Actually, I like the surrealistic
> look it gives them.
>
>
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Re: [Gimp-user] remember last location for "save as", "save a copy", "save", "open"

[Pere Pujal i Carabantes]

El dt 02 de 10 del 2007 a les 18:20 +0200, en/na Sven Neumann va
escriure:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, 2007-10-01 at 23:31 +0200, Pere Pujal i Carabantes wrote:
> 
> > I see the "Recently Used" (files) entry in file-chooser. Can it hold
> > "Recently Used Dirs" ?
> 
> For the Save dialog, this would probably make more sense than presenting
> recently used files. Would probably make sense to bring this up for
> discussion on the gtk-developer list or at least file a bug report for
> it against the GTK+ file-chooser.

Done, see:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2007-October/msg00010.html




> 
> If an image already has a filename associated to it, then open the Save
> file-chooser in that folder. Otherwise use the folder of the most recent
> save operation. Would that make sense?

I have to disagree, that can be very confusing. (and very powerfull BTW,
you can change the default saving directory on  the fly):

open a/b/c.xcf (named file)
new unnamed.xcf
new unnamed1.xcf
save unnamed.xcf to d/e/f.xcf (file-chooser comes up)
default saving directory comes d/e
save a/b/c.xcf ( CTRL+S  file-chooser doe not appear as the file has yet
a name)
default saving directory comes a/b nearly without notice
save unnamed1.xcf

What happens? a/b is presented when I just manualy selected d/e in the
previous opened file-chooser.  

What about this?:
If an image already has a filename associated to it, then open the Save
file-chooser in that folder. Otherwise use the folder of the most recent
save operation that implies the use of file-chooser.


Yours
Pere


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Re: [Gimp-user] Bit-depth Processing

[Greg]

--- carol irvin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know it is terribly easy for me to end up with mud after I overdo
it
> with all the plug-ins, styles, custom shapes and so forth that I've 
> amassed in the PS program.

Like your national park pics? :)  Actually, I like the surrealistic
look it gives them.


   

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Re: [Gimp-user] dodge & burn tutorial?

[Geoffrey]

Gracia M. Littauer wrote:
> I found on for PS (which should be useful), but wondered if gimp has one

Yes on my install, it's the last icon, looks like a small black ball 
with an extension on it.  Keystroke shortcut is: Shift+D


-- 
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
  - Benjamin Franklin
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[Gimp-user] dodge & burn tutorial?

[Gracia M. Littauer]

I found on for PS (which should be useful), but wondered if gimp has one
-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] What's the opinion here of "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to Professional"?

[Olivier Lecarme]

Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What's the opinion here of "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to
> Professional", by Akkana Peck,  Apress, 2006?

I think that Peck's book is by far the best available book about the
subject. It has some slight defects (what book does not have?), but its
coverage is excellent and its way to describe matters very good. It is
onnly a pity that the printer could not manage a better color rendering.

> It's supposed to cover GIMP 2.4.

It covers version 2.4 fairly well. No important feature is missing.

-- 


Olivier Lecarme
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[Gimp-user] plug-in vs. script

[Bettina Lechner]

hi gimpusers!

please, what is the difference between a plug-in and a script? I am asking
because I never know if I should copy a plug-in (e.g. from the
registry.gimp.org - site) in to the plug-in or the script folder. I'ts
always a try and error thing. And most of the times it's working when I am
copying the plug-in into the scripts folder. but what is then a plug-in?

thanks for explanations,
tina

-- 

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Bettina Karena Lechner
neue str 16, 2565 neuhaus
austria

mobil: +43 660 46 25 0 25
tel.: +43 26 74 878 72
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Re: [Gimp-user] remember last location for "save as", "save a copy", "save", "open"

[Raphaël Quinet]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:20:33 +0200, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If an image already has a filename associated to it, then open the Save
> file-chooser in that folder. Otherwise use the folder of the most recent
> save operation. Would that make sense?

Definitely.  That should be the default behavior.

If needed, the current behavior (always use the last directory) can be
emulated with a temporary bookmark.  The opposite is not true: if you
are working on several images and want to save each of them in the
directory they came from, then the current file-chooser behavior gets
in the way.

-Raphaël
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[Gimp-user] bit processing and deconstruct editing--AUTO delete

[carol irvin]

Since I read that many of us are in agreement about not wanting to continue
reading about the ongoing feud, I just wanted to let everyone know that I
will not be reading any more emails which have the above two headings.
Those seem to be the two that the feuders are using.  Thus, if a comment is
expected from me on any query, you will have to put something else in the
subject line as all of those will be deleted unread henceforth.  If they
start up on another subject line with the ongoing feud, those will be
deleted unread as well.  I try to answer all queries but you will have to
gain my attention on the subject line as a non-feuder in order for me to see
your comment.  Thanks to those of you already changing to new subject
lines.  My inbox appreciates it!

-- 
carol
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[Gimp-user] GIMP learning sites

[carol irvin]

http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/Gimp/OptimisingImagesForWeb?topic=WebHome

http://gimp.org/tutorials/

http://meetthegimp.org/?cat=8

http://www.gimpguru.org/

http://gimp-savvy.com/BOOK/

http://gug.sunsite.dk/

-- 
carol
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Re: [Gimp-user] photo resolution

[gimp_user]

On Thursday 04 October 2007 07:03:14 David Heino wrote:
> Hello,
> If I am producing images for the web, is 72 dpi still sufficient across all
> possible monitors--a little lap top screen to a large screen HDTV?

Think in pixels. If you need to cater for full screen digital projection 
1024x768 pixels is pretty standard. 
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[Gimp-user] photo resolution

[David Heino]

Hello,
If I am producing images for the web, is 72 dpi still sufficient across all
possible monitors--a little lap top screen to a large screen HDTV?
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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[gimp_user]

On Thursday 04 October 2007 04:42:55 Raphaël Quinet wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 02:55:35 -0700, gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 02 October 2007 13:02:02 Simon Budig wrote:
> > > Not "just noise", his points have some merit. But they are directed to
> > > the wrong audience and the intended audience already knows about his
> > > points. That ironically makes his mails pointless...
> >
> > If you regard my contributions as noise then please do not waste you time
> > reading them unless you are trolling to start a flame war. If so you will
> > not be successful here because I will follow a policy I have followed
> > over 30 years on mail lists -- keep on topic and, apart from making a
> > polite qrequest to keep on topic,  ignore trolling provocations designed
> > to take threads off topic by making personal comments.
>
> I assume that you have read the part of Simon's message that you have
> quoted above.  He did not write that your contributions are noise.  He
> wrote that they are addressed to the wrong audience.  Furthermore, the
> developers (who may be a better audience for feature requests) are
> already aware of the benefits of non-destructive editing, and the GEGL
> library is a step in that direction.
>
> Considering that most developers are already aware of the benefits
> (and overhead) of non-destructive editing, I am wondering why you keep
> on arguing about it.
>
> You are posting this on the user list. Although this list can provide
> good feedback about what some users like or do not like, this may not
> be the best place to argue about how to implement a feature that has
> already been discussed several times.  Well, unless you think that
> some members of this list who are not already developers would be so
> convinced by your arguments that they would decide to learn
> programming, study the GIMP internals, and start redesigning the whole
> GIMP core on their own.  But I consider this to be rather unlikely.
>
> So please think twice before arguing about these issues.  I suggest
> that you take a look at GEGL if you haven't looked at it already.
> Then feel free to bring back this topic on this list or on the
> developers list in about two years if you think that GIMP is not
> making progress in the right direction.
>
> -Raphaël
>
> P.S.: The suggestion to bring this back in two years is not a way to
>   keep you away.  It is just a reflection on the speed at which
>   GIMP is developed and probably the earliest date at which some
>   of the suggested features could be reviewed.
> ___
I think you miss the point and I do not agree that it is the wrong audience-- 
because the question arose from users.

Users hear about non-destructive editing but do not understand it. Artists use 
tools to achieve results. When discussing tools, as users do on a user list, 
the most important discussions to them are discussions of the potentials and 
the limits of the tool set. To be able to do that they need an understanding 
of the concepts otherwise they do not realize they can use Gimp when they 
might otherwise think they are forced to use PS.

I hear you coming from a developer perspective and feel you are in danger of 
misinterpreting discussion of non-destructive editing as a critique of 
developers, development strategy etc.

Discussion of tool potential and limitation is what users of graphic tool sets 
expect to discuss!! If they cannot discuss these things then they cannot 
discuss things that are important to them. This is a perspective I do not 
expect developers to understand but they should not treat such discussion as 
anathema either. Users who are enthusiatic about tools will push the tools to 
their limits. I aim to help them do that.
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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[Johan Vromans]

gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> [...] This layer would hold instructs that would apply my
> adjustment [...]

Yes! In fact, when I first started to work with layers I'd expected
the layers to work like this (i.e. store change instructions instead
of pixels).

Being an old Unix hacker, I'd go for a way to have Gimp dump the
changes in some structured way to an external (text) file, one that
can be editied and re-applied.

-- Johan
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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[Raphaël Quinet]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 02:55:35 -0700, gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 02 October 2007 13:02:02 Simon Budig wrote:
> > Not "just noise", his points have some merit. But they are directed to
> > the wrong audience and the intended audience already knows about his
> > points. That ironically makes his mails pointless...
> >
> If you regard my contributions as noise then please do not waste you time 
> reading them unless you are trolling to start a flame war. If so you will not 
> be successful here because I will follow a policy I have followed over 30 
> years on mail lists -- keep on topic and, apart from making a polite qrequest 
> to keep on topic,  ignore trolling provocations designed to take threads off 
> topic by making personal comments.  

I assume that you have read the part of Simon's message that you have
quoted above.  He did not write that your contributions are noise.  He
wrote that they are addressed to the wrong audience.  Furthermore, the
developers (who may be a better audience for feature requests) are
already aware of the benefits of non-destructive editing, and the GEGL
library is a step in that direction.

Considering that most developers are already aware of the benefits
(and overhead) of non-destructive editing, I am wondering why you keep
on arguing about it.

You are posting this on the user list. Although this list can provide
good feedback about what some users like or do not like, this may not
be the best place to argue about how to implement a feature that has
already been discussed several times.  Well, unless you think that
some members of this list who are not already developers would be so
convinced by your arguments that they would decide to learn
programming, study the GIMP internals, and start redesigning the whole
GIMP core on their own.  But I consider this to be rather unlikely.

So please think twice before arguing about these issues.  I suggest
that you take a look at GEGL if you haven't looked at it already.
Then feel free to bring back this topic on this list or on the
developers list in about two years if you think that GIMP is not
making progress in the right direction.

-Raphaël

P.S.: The suggestion to bring this back in two years is not a way to
  keep you away.  It is just a reflection on the speed at which
  GIMP is developed and probably the earliest date at which some
  of the suggested features could be reviewed.
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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[gimp_user]

On Thursday 04 October 2007 03:41:05 Michael Schumacher wrote:
> > Von: gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > If you regard my contributions as noise then please do not waste you time
> > reading them unless you are trolling to start a flame war. If so you will
> > not be successful here because I will follow a policy I have followed
> > over 30 years on mail lists -- keep on topic and, apart from making a
> > polite qrequest to keep on topic,  ignore trolling provocations designed
> > to take threads off topic by making personal comments.
>
> Then what do you do if the topic you keep on to can be regarded as
> a trolling provocation?
>
> I'm not sure if many do still follow this thread. If you want to get back
> on track, you should probably provide a short summary, for example:
>
> - who is your intended target audience
> - what are you trying to tell them
> - what do you expect from them
>
>
> Also, it would be interesting to know if you are aware of the future plans
> for GIMP.
>
In response to your questions:

1. As far as your trolling remark I cannot see what is in the heads of others 
and I would strongly recomend the policy I adopt. 

It has kept me out of flame wars for over thirty years. There are always 
people on the net  with strange agendas who get offended for no rational 
reason. 

I remember a classic case on a mailing list (using email on on a uucp system) 
in 1978 when someone used the words "this project has been aborted" and there 
was a whole string of responses objecting to the language - it went on for 
weeks and nobody seemed to think of anything else.

People who are easily offended respond irrationally and suspect others of 
underhand motives.  They usuially are unable to take what people say at face 
value. So I tend to feel a little sorry for them rather than take personal 
offense.

I am not responsible for how others respond and I try and respond to 
irrationality by ignoring the dross and concentrating on on-topic elements. 
If you really think I am trolling then you are fee to ignore my contributions 
safe in the knowledge I will not treat anyone else with unwarranted 
suspicions or encourage flame wars!!.

As far as your other questions:

1. The audience is those that I respond to or respond to me and either discuss 
or answer on topic. 
2. What is in my contributions.. 
3. Only what they want to offer. What I like to see is openess, integrity, 
humanity and respect for others (preferably including myself).

I interpret your questioning  as an indication you suspect I have some kind of 
agenda that goes beyond what I say. lf you are harbouring such suspicions 
then they are misplaced. My response to the interpretation is to wonder what 
your responses tell me about you.

All  I can say is I am at a stage in life (around 70)  when I have seen much 
come and go and have benefited artistically from the contributions of many. I 
like to give back a bit and know that creativity does not come without a 
struggle.

As far as the future plans of Gimp I read the technical  detail but find it 
hard to put my finger on a sense of mission that enables me to place its 
future in context. However my focus here is on what I and other users can do 
now with the tools that are available. Artistically I need to solve my 
challenges with the tools I have and understand what they can and cannot do 
for me. So for me, being firmly, as far as Gimp is concerned, on the user 
side, I am not therefore too concerned about plans but am glad to hear that 
16bit is on the agenda along with non-destructive editing. When it comes 
along I will be the first to try it and assess both its potentials and its 
limitations. 

When I paint I do not use a fine camel hair brush to put on large swathes of 
thick paint and the brush manufacturer would not feel the least offended if I 
told a student "hey you might want to use a palette knife here". The brush 
manufacturer would know that if I saw a student trying to do something with a 
palette knife that would be better done with a camel hair brush I would be 
equally honest in the reverse direction.

Watching this list (which I have done for many years)  I wonder if the Core 
tem developing Gimp are a little too emotionally committed to the toolset and 
are not able to see that good tools are pushed to their very limit by users 
and that during his/her development good artists need to know where the 
limits are. Developers, by definition , are primarily interested in what is 
coming -- after all that is only to be expected because they are creating 
it!! 

On the other hand users are focused not on the plans for Gimp but on what they 
can and cannot  do with Gimp NOW!!

FWIW I wonder whether Gimp developers all too easily misinterpret user 
discussion of current limits as a critique of Gimp. Some even react as though  
developers themselves are under attack. Having both technical and artistic 
background I see such discussion as  an artistic necessity, an appre

Re: [Gimp-user] What's the opinion here of "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to Professional"?

[Carsten Agger]

On 10/4/07, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What's the opinion here of "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to
> Professional", by Akkana Peck,  Apress, 2006?
>
> It's supposed to cover GIMP 2.4.
> 

I'm a "novice", having used the Gimp to process photos for the last two
years but without learning image processing in a structured way.

I recently bought the book (it was recommended in a video podcast
at www.meetthegimp.org) and did the first four chapters ... and think
it looks good; i already learned a lot, and it only seems to be getting
better. It looks good for not-so-advanced users, IMHO.

best regards
Carsten

PD: I must get used to live withour Reply-To-munging - sorry for the omission
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[Gimp-user] What's the opinion here of "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to Professional"?

[Dick Moores]

What's the opinion here of "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to
Professional", by Akkana Peck,  Apress, 2006?

It's supposed to cover GIMP 2.4.


Dick Moores
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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[Michael Schumacher]

> Von: gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> If you regard my contributions as noise then please do not waste you time 
> reading them unless you are trolling to start a flame war. If so you will
> not be successful here because I will follow a policy I have followed 
> over 30 years on mail lists -- keep on topic and, apart from making a 
> polite qrequest to keep on topic,  ignore trolling provocations designed 
> to take threads off topic by making personal comments.  

Then what do you do if the topic you keep on to can be regarded as 
a trolling provocation?

I'm not sure if many do still follow this thread. If you want to get back on 
track, you should probably provide a short summary, for example:

- who is your intended target audience
- what are you trying to tell them
- what do you expect from them


Also, it would be interesting to know if you are aware of the future plans for 
GIMP. 


HTH,
Michael
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Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser
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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[gimp_user]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 11:52:13 Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> * gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-02-07 13:47]:
>  Much unnecessary quote removed.
>
> > One thing I forgot to mention is that if you are simply trying to edit an
> > image for your own use and can revisit the original then the absense of
> > non-destrucitve editing features may not be a handicap. The point is to
> > know what you can and cannot do with each and every toolset and when a
> > tool is appropriate to your needs and when it is not.
>
> You keep getting back to this "non-destructive editing".  WHO can edit
> an image for what-ever purpose and not retain the original?  HOW can
> you edit  and not have a copy of  to begin with?
>
Your question is a good one and the distinctions are sometimes simple, 
sometimes complex.

In this response I am going to try and explain my perception here. First the 
distinction between the original and the process of editing.

You are correct to point out that sensible processors will retain a copy of 
their original. Here your question   suggests a lack of clarity on my part. 

1. The term non-destructive editing is term that describes a process chosen 
for editing rather than the simple retainment of a copy of the original 
(which is simply a back up). 

2. There is no external authority who precisely defines what is and what is 
not non-destructive editing but it is a term in wide use and has a certain 
group of expectations attached to it that sometimes loosely and sometimes 
quite precisely define it.

3. The term Non-destructive editing is  generally taken to have a meaning that 
goes well beyond the simple keeping of a record of exactly what has been done 
at every stage so one can troll back through the record to recreate each 
stage.

4. The  non-destructive specific record from editing is not the same as a 
separate record of every action or stage in the process.

5. Now I will attempt to amplify.

Let us say we are beginning work on a basic image.

(a) I am not entirely happy with the exposure of the image as a whole. If I 
was editing destructively I would use a tool to change the exposure and the 
original image chnages accordingly. If I am editing non-destructively then I 
need a tool to help me. For example it could creates an entirely different 
layer that appears in a layer stack above the original image. This layer 
would hold instructs that would apply my adjustment to a selection of  layers 
that appear below the adjustment layer. However this is only stage one and 
does not quite yet meet current expectations of non-destructivenness. We have 
to be able to two further requirements:
   the ability to revisit the adjustment layer and tweak it at any later
  
time (no matter how many subsequent changes have been made).
   The ability to turn on and off the effect. This is most important 
because it enables one to view the image with and without the effect at any 
subsequent time and also create other layers providing the same effect but 
applying different values.
 
(b) I now carry out many more edits each one of which is similarly handled.  
Furthermore when I close that image it can be reopened and all the adjustment 
layers are there for subsequent tweaking by \anyone to whom I choose to pass 
the file.

IF I can present a third party with a full copy of my work, and they can go 
back in and tweak each effect to their satifaction than I can honestly tell 
them the image has been editied non-destructively. However if they had to 
retrace my steps from the history then the edit would definitely not be 
regarded as non-destructive.

How is the record different?

Usually with non-destructive editing you have the history (which is the same 
as a record of every step). 

However more importantly the adjustment layers only record for each effect 
what actually modifies the original to produce  the final image. So the noise 
in the history from work that I did,  but discarded, does not clutter up the 
non-destructive editing record.

For example if I had adjusted the exposure up and down repeatedly the final 
adjustment layer would only hold my final setings rather then the ones I had 
discarded.

However if I had two layers holding exposure adjustments I could have both 
affect the final record or either or none!

It is important to appreciate that for the professional interested in high 
quality images the image at the base of the stack will normally be the raw 
image stored at 16 bit per channel. However when one is working using HD the 
actual image could be 48 bit per channel as a result of combining three 
images to produce the base.






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Re: [Gimp-user] non-destructive editing

[gimp_user]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 13:02:02 Simon Budig wrote:

>
> Not "just noise", his points have some merit. But they are directed to
> the wrong audience and the intended audience already knows about his
> points. That ironically makes his mails pointless...
>
If you regard my contributions as noise then please do not waste you time 
reading them unless you are trolling to start a flame war. If so you will not 
be successful here because I will follow a policy I have followed over 30 
years on mail lists -- keep on topic and, apart from making a polite qrequest 
to keep on topic,  ignore trolling provocations designed to take threads off 
topic by making personal comments.  

So here is my polite request:

"You are not obliged to read my posts so please be thoughtful of others and  
either contribute on topic or keep quiet."

I would add:

Maybe you are not comfortable with the topic but please leave anyone else who 
has a different point of view, free to contribute in comfort. Topics in which 
noone is interested die early. 

Most people realize that one person's noise may be another's music. I find the 
most interesting and valuable contributions come from people who have sound 
arguments well expressed and who, when they disagree with another's argument, 
are able to find ways to respond and be personally respectful at the same 
time.


Thanks


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[Gimp-user] Creativity Ceilings

[gimp_user]

In response to an excellent suggestion from Carol I have reposted this item 
under the above title. Should anyone wish to continue this discussion then 
please do so here rather than under the Bit-depth Processing title as it gets 
a bit confusing when discussions drift off topic.

Thanks Carol

ORIGINAL Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Bit-depth Processing
Date: Wednesday 03 October 2007
From: gimp_user <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 23:11:19 Leon Brooks GIMP wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 October 2007 04:35:36 David Southwell wrote:
> > IMHO photoshop is NOT a tool designed for the "average user".
>
> "Average" can mean "typical" & it can mean numbers (as in
> mean/mode/median), either way, PS fits the bill.

You are right - I should have defined my use of the term more precisely to 
guard against misinterpretation. In this context I used "average" when I 
should have referred to those who are not professional  image makers 
producing high quality/high resolution images for whom a whole range of 
tools, including photoshop become necessary. There area much larger number of 
people whose primary use of a camera is for taking snaps on holiday and do 
not have the time, energy or inclination to devote to image processing or 
becoming familiar with complex applications such as photoshop and gimps. So 
perhaps my perception of "average user" is different to yours. 
>
> So if you want to struggle with an "average" creativity ceiling
> & suffer "average" problems, you would choose CS.
>
I do not see either PS or Gimp creating ceilings on creativity. My experience 
of creative people is that they find ways to be creative no matter what tool 
set they happen to be using at the time. This is rather like the painter who 
will sometimes use an extremely limited pallette to achieve a desired affect. 
Just because s/he has all the colours/media available it does not mean one 
needs to use them on every occasion.

IMaybe I should also have distinquished between issues related to creativity 
and issues that are related to having techniques available to meet the 
demands set by the creative goal. For example the technical requirements for 
projecting an image at 1024x768 resolution or for producing a monster 3x2 
metre high resolution print may make equal demands in the creativity 
department but the technical demands of the media are fantastically 
different. The choice of image capture and processing techniques are IMHO far 
more closely related to what I will call "the exhibiting media".
> A lot of people (can't offer you numbers on this one, have to
> settle for "many") regard "average" as the only reasonable
> alternative to "failure." They won't necessarily _say_ this when
> discussing it, but that's how it operates in Real Life.
>
I hear your sentiment -- some people do have that type of psychological 
framework but I am not certain whether one can generalize from it because 
people approach choices in so many different ways.
> The essence of this approach is that it makes them allergic
> to true success & to attributes like innovation. When "marketing"
> to these users (or their bosses) I suspect you'd have to figure
> out what they're hedging against in specifying PS, then show
> how GIMP clearly offers them better results _in_their_terms_.
>
For some Gimp will meet some or all of their requirements. IMHO it is not 
about "better results" but about appropriate tools for certain tasks. If for 
example the task requires raw and non-destructive editing (for whatever 
reason ranging from artistic to client requirement) then one  chooses an 
appropriate toolset - Critera also frequently limit the range of available 
methods. 


> This is doubly hard because opening discussion on the very topic
> which subtly terrifies them simply raises internal horror & shuts
> down communication. So you have to be subtle about it, &
> probably approach it under the guise of "the fabulous new gadget
> I found which seems to solve X, Y & Z" rather than "this PS
> replacement that we're going to bet the boat on."
>
If they are terrified then perhaps their terror would have been sufficient to 
have destroyed their creativity!! Creative people use many different types of 
tools and brushes and are rarely horrified by having more choices. They are 
also most unlikely to bet on any individual choice! As I see it gimp is a 
valuable tool within my  8 most frequently used digital image manipulation 
programs. I also have numerous tools I use much less frequently. 

IAs a creative artist I do not want to limit my output by seeking replacements 
but widen my potential by adding to my tool sets. I try to ask myself what is 
the best tool for me to achieve this particular result? I often find myself 
using more than one tool set on the same piece of work. I suppose my choices 
come from an approach that prioritizes devotion to the creative output rather 
than to a specific tool or method. Others will cho

Re: [Gimp-user] can we change "bit processing" header in subject line?

[Doug]

carol irvin wrote:
> "bit processing" is now such a huge email that I am having trouble 
> telling when I want to read it and when I don't.  There is some really 
> good creative info coming in on it which I don't want to miss.  But 
> there is also some sort of continuing feud going on under that same 
> heading, which I do not want to read.  Perhaps the people who want to 
> post continuing creative insights could title theirs on the subject 
> line "creativity" and if they want to limit it even further could add 
> "camera" or "painting" or "art".  As for the feuders, I don't really 
> know what they can label theirs but I would really like something that 
> earmarks it so I can delete it unread as I don't want to devote 
> further time to scanning through them just to delete them.  I suppose 
> you could just label it "feud continues" and those who want to follow 
> it can and those who want to delete unread can do so.  
>
> Thank you.
>
I strongly agree: while the feud may be interesting to the participants, 
for someone standing outside (me) it reads like an endless recycling of 
the same arguments in different words. Put it down to my ignorance.
I'd join Carol in appreciating it if the "feuders" and the "creators" 
could use different titles for their posts.

Thanks
Doug
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