Re: [Gimp-user] Layers in reverse

[Oon-Ee Ng]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
 wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Misty Day wrote:
>
>> Is there a way to take a flattened image and reverse that so you can
>> manipulate the layers?
>
> You mean, an already saved image? No.
>
> Of course, if you mean undoing flattening while the project is still
> open, it's perfectly doable via Undo History dialog..
>
>>  Photoshop allows it.
>
> I very much doubt that.
>
Actually I think when opening PDFs with layer information Photoshop
does allow it. PDFs aren't 'images' of course.
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Re: [Gimp-user] resizing images to fit the canvas

[Olivier]

2012/8/12 Misty Day :
> I can size the canvas perfectly, but when I add an image as a layer and try
> to resize the image, it will not resize to fit the canvas.  How is this
> done?

Resize the layer, not the canvas. Image: Layer -> Scale Layer or Layer
to Image Size.

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Layers in reverse

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Misty Day wrote:

> Is there a way to take a flattened image and reverse that so you can
> manipulate the layers?

You mean, an already saved image? No.

Of course, if you mean undoing flattening while the project is still
open, it's perfectly doable via Undo History dialog..

>  Photoshop allows it.

I very much doubt that.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] re help install

[Olivier]

2012/8/12 Misty Day :
> Please tell me how to install help for GIMP 2.8

For what operating system?
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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Burnie wrote:
> On 08/12/2012 08:20 AM, R Kimber wrote:
>>
>> Or even making widely used plugins like 8bf work in Gimp
>
> bug #?

What would you need it for? :)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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[Gimp-user] resizing images to fit the canvas

[Misty Day]

I can size the canvas perfectly, but when I add an image as a layer and try to 
resize the image, it will not resize to fit the canvas.  How is this done?___
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[Gimp-user] re help install

[Misty Day]

Please tell me how to install help for GIMP 2.8___
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[Gimp-user] Layers in reverse

[Misty Day]

Is there a way to take a flattened image and reverse that so you can manipulate 
the layers?  Photoshop allows it.___
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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[Burnie]

On 08/12/2012 08:20 AM, R Kimber wrote:

Or even making widely used plugins like 8bf work in Gimp

bug #?
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Archie Arevalo]

On Sunday 12 August 2012 09:01:21 Ken Warner wrote:
> Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new
> interface cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices
> that led to this discussion.
> On 8/12/2012 8:25 AM, isabel brison wrote:
> > Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred?
> > Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP
> > users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you
> > seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user
> > can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't,
> > then they don't.

I am usually silent on matters like these but too much is too much. A crystal 
clear explanation has been given. Why can't it just be, "OK I understand what 
you are saying, Alexandre. Thank you and goodbye"?

I support the new interface. I am one of the silent one who is now standing 
up.

-- 
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Will Rogers never met you.
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Archie Arevalo]

On Sunday 12 August 2012 21:02:07 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, daniel wrote:
> > Is there any reason you skipped over the part about the damage caused by
> > deviations from the accepted standard for user interface behavior and how
> > it affects not only the user work flow in GiMP but also in other programs
> > a user may use at the same time?
> 
> Yes, there is a reason. I'm bored to death explaining that this is not
> a deviation. But since you are specifically asking about it...
> 
> GIMP is targeted at workflows that involve multilayered projects,
> masks, paths etc. If you pick pretty much any serious digital media
> production tool that combines bits of data inside, you'll see that it
> only saves to its native file format and maybe to a few exchange file
> formats such as AAF or OMF.
> 
> Compositing software such as Nuke or Ramen? Check.
> Digital audio workstations such as Logic or Ardour? Check.
> Non-linear video editors such as Premiere or Kdenlive? Check.
> 
> Do their provide optional saving behavior? Check.
> 
> I've already heard people coming with professional background in media
> production wondering, why folks make all this fuzz about save/export.
> Because the change makes sense to them, and it's exactly the kind of
> people we are targeting.
> 
> And targeting a certain group of people (or, rather, their workflows)
> doesn't mean that we hate other groups of users and their workflows or
> neglect them. The whole secondary workflow was designed to address the
> needs of people who want to just save changes back to the original
> file. This is how we "hate" you.
> 
> > We've gone from "it seemed like a good idea at the time" to "it's too late
> > to change, the decision has been made."
> 
> _We_ haven't.
> 
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org

Thank you yet again for the repeated explanation, Alexandre.

Allow me to just add in simple terms, GIMP, as excellent as an editor that it 
is aimed at WORKFLOWS, and although a simple Open File > Resize > Export 
(Ctrl+E or Shift+Ctrl+E ... or if anyone wishes, remap the shortcut to Ctrl+S) 
is also tolerable, the developers' target is serious GIMP use.

The choices are simple. If users cannot adapt, stay with 2.6 or look for 
another editor that works for the users' purposes. Or learn to adapt, which 
requires very little amount of effort and brain function. If you feel, you've 
been left out, that is just too bad. Learn to live with it.

Give it up with the "hate" messages. It is clear that the changes are here to 
stay. I want it to stay, as do many others.

Respect to those who deserve,
Archie

-- 
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ASHes to ASHes, DOS to DOS.
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Re: [Gimp-user] Extreme newby needs some help please!

[Liam R E Quin]

On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 17:04 -0700, Jessica Tomlinson wrote:
> Hi all,
>  I'm really pleased to discover such a complete, free application
> which grew out of a community spirit.  However, I'm a little
> frustrated because I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out just what
> makes it tick ;0.

I'd suggest getting hold of "gimp for artists" or for a more traditional
aproach :-) Akkana Peck's book on gimp.

For your immediate question... inkscape is easier than gimp for making a
font, but, to use gimp...

put each image in a separate file. You'll then open an image, go to the
Layers dialogue (control-l, or it starts out life docked next to the
image if you didn't move it already), right-click on the "background"
layer and choose 'add alpha channel' - this lets the image include
transparency.

Use the eraser and/or paintbrush to clean up the image; if you scanned
it, look under the colours menu for Levels and press the Auto button,
and for Curves and drag the ends of the diagonal line horizontally
towards the middle, making a steeper line, to increase contrast.

next, go to the layer menu and, under transparency, choose Colour to
Alpha. You can probably just click OK to get the white in the image to
be transparent.

Finally, go to the File menu and use Export As to export as PNG (this
will give better results than GIF in most cases).

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Re: [Gimp-user] Extreme newby needs some help please!

[Partha Bagchi]

Hi,

Try the following. Click on the Color Menu Item and then Color to
Alpha. White should already be selected and so hit OK. You are done.

Partha


On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Jessica Tomlinson
 wrote:
> Hi all,
>  I'm really pleased to discover such a complete, free application which
> grew out of a community spirit.  However, I'm a little frustrated because
> I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out just what makes it tick ;0.  I've
> pored over parts of the online guide, and am having trouble understanding
> some of the language in it.  Basically, I'm a teacher, and haven't done much
> digital art, but I've been inspired by the whole host of "teacher bloggers"
> and their cool creations.  I like to draw on paper, but am not very good at
> it. ;)  Basically, I've drawn a whole set of letters, which I intend to make
> into an "alphabet", which is not really a font, but is used like one
> sometimes.  I've attached this question mark which is a test that I've been
> playing with.  I want to make it transparent, like a regular GIF image, so
> you can set it against color and not have a tacky white square.  I've been
> trying to select and cut the white area with the "select by color" tool, but
> I'm not sure if this is working or not.  I wanted to do the same for some
> black stray lines, but it didn't work at all.  But for this, I could get rid
> of them with the eracer tool.  Also, instead of saving as a GIF file, it
> insists on saving this as a GIMP image!  Why is this??  Thanks in advance.
>
> Jessica
>
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Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP is GREAT!

[William Thorup]

While we are at it I would like to give my thanks as well.

I am a 3D\2D digital artist and I have been using Gimp for close to a
decade now. I have loved and preferred it ever since I started.  And I have
encouraged those around me to try it out, if not make it a replacement for
some more expensive photo manipulation programs they are currently using.
9 times out of 10 Gimp is able to do what they need to do professionally.

And even with some of the disputed changes in 2.8, it still holds its
ground as my top application for my work, and for others that I know.

The changes that have been made, in some ways have slowed me down
initially, but, in the long run, it has sped things up.  (Especially when I
am doing any sort of 3D texturing).  And after about a week of adapting to
the changes, there is no way I can go back to 2.6.  It is a much more
pleasant experience than it already was.  This is usually how any learning
experience for any kind of topic plays out, at least for me.

On behalf of those I know, that appreciate this program, and the great
piece of software that it is, and for myself, we thank all the developers
for their hard work.  We understand that it isn't easy to put together and
maintain a program like this.  But you all are doing a great job.  Keep it
up.

Will Thorup

http://www.williamthorup.com/
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[Gimp-user] Help: How to activate pen pressure for varying brush size? (Tablet users)

[siehorse]

>First, forget version 2.6.11 and install version 2.8. Then you'll find
>a very powerful set of tunable paint dynamics, allowing you to connect
>pen pressure with any parameter you wish.

Thanks Olivier! GIMP works fine with my tablet now.


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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[jfrazierjr]

> 
> So please, don't count my silence so far as indifference...
> 

Likewise... my silence is not indifference... I LOVE the new behavior.  For 
what I do most, which is creating/editing images with multiple layer/mask 
support, the change is EXTREMELY welcome.   

First you have gotten rid of the annoying popup windows telling me I am loosing 
data when "saving" to jpeg/png.  

However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the change now prevents an change being made with 
layer, mask, or other non JPEG functionality support, saving to jpeg, and the 
accidentally closing the image without first saving to xcf to ensure those 
changes are preserved.  While it did not happen often in 2.6, it did happen 
enough to really appreciate the new behavior.  

Also, for me... EVEN if I hated the new behavior, for me the new features such 
as resource tagging, brush dynamics(I use a pen/tablet), Layer Groups(though 
really wish the masking would work on groups.. but will have to wait for 2.10 
for that), and other new features are well worth the small change in routine.  
Of course, this does not even count all of the upcoming changes which will make 
life so much easier in 2.10, 3.0, and beyond such as layer adjustment masks, 
etc.  For these features alone, I would gladly change my long standing habits.  

I also want to express my deep appreciation and respect for you guys who spend 
countless hours of your free time with little to nothing in return.  As a few 
others have noted, I also am getting really tired of hearing all of the people 
acting like children who are not getting their way.  I mean seriously, why keep 
arguing?   The decision has been made, it was made on purpose, it was provided 
YEARS in advance for those who actually gave a DAMN about their input being 
heard so that they could provide their input(and in some cases ,their input 
allowed for some slight tweaks to be made while still following the direction 
the product wanted to head).  

Bottom line, if you don't like the new behavior please note your complaint ONCE 
and then move on... decide if you will relearn behaviors to accommodate the new 
GIMP UI, roll back to a previous version of GIMP(and thus never get new 
features again), fork the code, or find a new piece of software.   This 
constant back and forth is pointless trolling... your not going to win and your 
just doing more to alienate the developers.  Perhaps YOU may want GIMP 2.6 to 
be the perfect GIMP, but you risk ruining for everyone who either don't care 
about the new save vs export or those who like it from loosing the 
developers(and thus future updates) of the project.   
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Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP is GREAT!

[Gerald]

 Me too I agree !

I use it under Linux since version 1.6 ( see 
http://www.gimp.org/about/splash/unstable-1.1.html ) at least .
That's a way long time ago, and I always adapt my self to this superberb 
pice of software. Now I use the 2.8 version on Linux and I'm as always, 
pleased.


As we say in French  "Lâchez pas !"




Le 2012-08-12 12:27, Archie Arevalo a écrit :


Dear Alexandre Prokoudine and all those who appreciate GIMP,

GIMP is a great tool. It is not that hard to adapt to the changes made 
in 2.8. It is easy to reform habits if the community would just stop 
yapping about it and instead do something about it themselves.


You hard work are tremendously appreciated by many of us, and we trust 
that you will continue to pursue the goals you have set out.


More power to GIMP development and developers.

With much respect,

Archie Arevalo

PCLinuxOS user

P.S. This email is not butt licking but just a change from all the 
complaints I keep getting on my inbox. ;D




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--
--
La Photo Du Jour
http://gb-photodujour.com
Sur internet depuis juin 1998

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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Maarten De Munck]

Alexandre Prokoudine schreef op zo 12-08-2012 om 21:09 [+0400]:
> "...there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was
> worth complaining about" absolutely doesn't imply that.
> 
> This is not black and white world where people either support or not
> support things. There's such a thing as indifference.
> 
> We know absolutely nothing about what all those people think. And
> since we don't, there's nothing we can or should do about it. Worrying
> about the unknown is the single most meaningless activity.

Well,

I do follow the gimp-user list for some time now and I really do like
the new behaviour. 

I use Gimp (and often Cinepaint too, at least until Gimp supports 16 bit
per channel; I noticed the git development version does, but it looks
like it still has some issues with colors/color profiles, but thats a
different story) for editing scanned black and white and color images,
which often involves quite some layer/selection/mask work (I more or
less do what I do in the darkroom too and most of the time, it involves
selections, layers and masks). And I absolutely love the new behaviour
for these tasks. It is easy to export intermediate results to send to
others or to compare changes to.

It is maybe not necessary for simpler tasks, but for these tasks
exporting (without saving) and realising that nothing is lost by not
saving isn't too cumbersome either. I agree that maybe 2.6 was a little
bit easier for these tasks, but I prefer the advantages of the new
behaviour for the photos which require more work.

So please, don't count my silence so far as indifference...

Maarten De Munck

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Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP is GREAT!

[Mogens Jæger]

Den 12-08-2012 18:27, Archie Arevalo skrev:

Dear Alexandre Prokoudine and all those who appreciate GIMP,

GIMP is a great tool. It is not that hard to adapt to the changes made
in 2.8. It is easy to reform habits if the community would just stop
yapping about it and instead do something about it themselves.

You hard work are tremendously appreciated by many of us, and we trust
that you will continue to pursue the goals you have set out.

More power to GIMP development and developers.

With much respect,

Archie Arevalo

PCLinuxOS user

P.S. This email is not butt licking but just a change from all the
complaints I keep getting on my inbox. ;D



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I'm in on this one - I just persuaded a friend who just started 
photographing to use the GIMP 2.8 for editing. He's not used to free 
software, and was very astonished (typical win-user), that he could get 
all this for free.


Keep up the good work - and thanks a lot

Mogens Jæger

Suse Factory user



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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

>> Why, in the "File->Save as..." dialog do other graphical file formats appear
>> in the file browsing?  If this is to be a consistent behavior, why taunt the
>> user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and other files and then
>> not allow them to save in that format?  When you try, a dialog box comes up
>> saying "nope!  you want to do that, go do this other thing."  Imagine being
>> at an intersection on the road, then turning right only to find a sign
>> appears saying "you can't turn right here" *after* you made the turn
>> already!
>>
>> If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working.  If the purpose is to
>> educate people about something, then the message was lost with confusion and
>> negative emotional response.
>
> It is simply a bug which you could have reported without all the
> additional overreaction and speculation.

By the way, drc just made a good point on IRC that showing files like
JPG and PNG there allows easily picking an existing filename to call
the file after.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:01 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

> Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new
> interface cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices that
> led to this discussion.

I'm bound to ask you, if there's something wrong with your perception
of reality.

"...there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was
worth complaining about" absolutely doesn't imply that.

This is not black and white world where people either support or not
support things. There's such a thing as indifference.

We know absolutely nothing about what all those people think. And
since we don't, there's nothing we can or should do about it. Worrying
about the unknown is the single most meaningless activity.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, daniel wrote:

> Is there any reason you skipped over the part about the damage caused by
> deviations from the accepted standard for user interface behavior and how it
> affects not only the user work flow in GiMP but also in other programs a
> user may use at the same time?

Yes, there is a reason. I'm bored to death explaining that this is not
a deviation. But since you are specifically asking about it...

GIMP is targeted at workflows that involve multilayered projects,
masks, paths etc. If you pick pretty much any serious digital media
production tool that combines bits of data inside, you'll see that it
only saves to its native file format and maybe to a few exchange file
formats such as AAF or OMF.

Compositing software such as Nuke or Ramen? Check.
Digital audio workstations such as Logic or Ardour? Check.
Non-linear video editors such as Premiere or Kdenlive? Check.

Do their provide optional saving behavior? Check.

I've already heard people coming with professional background in media
production wondering, why folks make all this fuzz about save/export.
Because the change makes sense to them, and it's exactly the kind of
people we are targeting.

And targeting a certain group of people (or, rather, their workflows)
doesn't mean that we hate other groups of users and their workflows or
neglect them. The whole secondary workflow was designed to address the
needs of people who want to just save changes back to the original
file. This is how we "hate" you.

> We've gone from "it seemed like a good idea at the time" to "it's too late
> to change, the decision has been made."

_We_ haven't.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Ken Warner]

Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new interface 
cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices that led to this 
discussion.

On 8/12/2012 8:25 AM, isabel brison wrote:


Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? 
Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who 
didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming 
to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this 
list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't.


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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[Partha Bagchi]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
 wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Partha Bagchi wrote:
>
>> Alexandre,
>>
>> All Photoshop plugins filters have the extension 8bf?
>
> Nope. There's also 8bi and others. See the beginning of
> http://www.fileinfo.com/filetypes/plugin.
>
> 8bf is the only supported format because it's the only one Tor had
> documentation for. Adobe published some specs for its file formats
> since then, but nothing on filters as far as I can tell.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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OK, but Wiki says that 8bf are Photoshop plug-in filters. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8bf#Plugin_types :)

Anyway, not relevant to the overall discussion about Akkana's plugin.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Partha Bagchi wrote:

> Alexandre,
>
> All Photoshop plugins filters have the extension 8bf?

Nope. There's also 8bi and others. See the beginning of
http://www.fileinfo.com/filetypes/plugin.

8bf is the only supported format because it's the only one Tor had
documentation for. Adobe published some specs for its file formats
since then, but nothing on filters as far as I can tell.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[Partha Bagchi]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
 wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:20 PM, R Kimber wrote:
>
>> Or even making widely used plugins like 8bf work in Gimp
>
> Are you by any chance referring to the PSPI plug-in?
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Alexandre,

All Photoshop plugins filters have the extension 8bf?
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[Gimp-user] GIMP is GREAT!

[Archie Arevalo]

Dear Alexandre Prokoudine and all those who appreciate GIMP,

GIMP is a great tool. It is not that hard to adapt to the changes made in 2.8. 
It is easy to reform habits if the community would just stop yapping about it 
and instead do something about it themselves.

You hard work are tremendously appreciated by many of us, and we trust that 
you will continue to pursue the goals you have set out.

More power to GIMP development and developers.

With much respect,
Archie Arevalo
PCLinuxOS user

P.S. This email is not butt licking but just a change from all the complaints 
I keep getting on my inbox. ;D
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

> Why, in the "File->Save as..." dialog do other graphical file formats appear
> in the file browsing?  If this is to be a consistent behavior, why taunt the
> user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and other files and then
> not allow them to save in that format?  When you try, a dialog box comes up
> saying "nope!  you want to do that, go do this other thing."  Imagine being
> at an intersection on the road, then turning right only to find a sign
> appears saying "you can't turn right here" *after* you made the turn
> already!
>
> If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working.  If the purpose is to
> educate people about something, then the message was lost with confusion and
> negative emotional response.

It is simply a bug which you could have reported without all the
additional overreaction and speculation.

Thanks, this will be looked at.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:20 PM, R Kimber wrote:

> Or even making widely used plugins like 8bf work in Gimp

Are you by any chance referring to the PSPI plug-in?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Andrew Clarke]

"but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project"

Please don't get grumpy, because GIMP is GREAT and its moving forward. I am 
looking forward to higher bit processing...

I wish at times we could close some threads as I am getting a little tied of 
deleting emails, forums have some advantages to mailing lists...




On 12/08/2012 16:42, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:03 AM, kiwi_steve wrote:


And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still
annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the
questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call
telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a
solution.

The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully.

So the point you are making is that until we do as you say we never
listen to you?


I have respect for open-source developers

Sorry, but you haven't.


I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they
can trample over half their user-base with impunity.

And this proves that you don't have any respect for us.


I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was,

Steve, we've already said we are not going to do that. Persisting on
that over and over again won't change that, but you will make us
grumpier and less willing to work on the project. Please think about
it.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:37 AM, kiwi_steve wrote:

> Gimp used to be a great photo editor, now its useful but cumbersome
> to use because even if you open a JPG you can't even change the size
> and just save-as a JPG - that is just utter nonsense.

You absolutely can. It's just called differently, and you can always
remap hotkeys.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

> The name "Jesus" is correctly pronounced [hey-soos'].

Oh boy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Etymology_of_name

> I think it's pretty clear what users and developers want and they aren't the
> same.

There we go again. Let me reinstate that: there are no "users" (as
there are no "developers").  There is a certain group of users we are
now catering to at the cost of losing some part of the former
community. It was to be expected. We knew that and we take
responsibility for that decision.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:03 AM, kiwi_steve wrote:

> And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still
> annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the
> questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call
> telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a
> solution.
>
> The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully.

So the point you are making is that until we do as you say we never
listen to you?

> I have respect for open-source developers

Sorry, but you haven't.

> I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they
> can trample over half their user-base with impunity.

And this proves that you don't have any respect for us.

> I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was,

Steve, we've already said we are not going to do that. Persisting on
that over and over again won't change that, but you will make us
grumpier and less willing to work on the project. Please think about
it.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Christen Anderson]

On 8/12/2012 9:25 AM, isabel brison wrote:



On 12 August 2012 08:37, kiwi_steve > wrote:


>But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are
>taking about this is totally unjustified.

Then why are they getting it?


I've always heard you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. We're 
getting awesome software absolutely free and yet some people still 
complain because it's not exactly what they wanted. So why are the 
devs getting all that flak? I'm beginning to think it's just plain bad 
manners.




>*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration.
>and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect
simply
>for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image
>editing software out there without being paid for it!

As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers -
and as to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of
knowing the exact percentage - maybe its more than half.


Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a 
hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands 
more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. 
Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled 
GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. 
If they don't, then they don't.



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+100
:)
~Christen

--
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[isabel brison]

On 12 August 2012 08:37, kiwi_steve  wrote:

> >But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are
> >taking about this is totally unjustified.
>
> Then why are they getting it?
>

I've always heard you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. We're
getting awesome software absolutely free and yet some people still complain
because it's not exactly what they wanted. So why are the devs getting all
that flak? I'm beginning to think it's just plain bad manners.



> >*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration.
> >and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply
> >for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image
> >editing software out there without being paid for it!
>
> As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to
> the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact
> percentage - maybe its more than half.
>


Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred?
Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users
who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously
claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably
find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they
don't.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A plug-in for those who still don't like the new Save/Export

[R Kimber]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 13:39:52 -0700
Akkana Peck wrote:

> Now can we move on and talk about gegl graphs and improving
> the brush UI? :-)

Or even making widely used plugins like 8bf work in Gimp

- Richard.
-- 
Richard Kimber
Political Science Resources
http://www.PoliticsResources.net/
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[maderios]

On 08/12/2012 04:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* maderios  [08-12-12 10:06]:
  ...

The problem is not "to understand" !  All I know, all I see,  is that the
change "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too.
I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and
sweat. Unfortunately   this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so,
logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8.

Problem would appear to be *selective* reading of the list as Akkana Peck
has provided a plug-in to provide your desired action *and* posted notice
here.


This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities "save" and "save as" are
available again.  I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have
been simpler.  This is not the case.

I don't believe *threatening* the developers with *your* decision will
have *little* effect.
  

I present here just my personal point of view.
Developers do what they want ...

May be interesting.
Upstream disconnected from the user base ?
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107586.html
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107603.html
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-May/107697.html
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Patrick Shanahan]

* maderios  [08-12-12 10:06]:
 ... 
> The problem is not "to understand" !  All I know, all I see,  is that the
> change "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too.
> I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and
> sweat. Unfortunately   this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so,
> logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8. 

Problem would appear to be *selective* reading of the list as Akkana Peck
has provided a plug-in to provide your desired action *and* posted notice
here.

> This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities "save" and "save as" are
> available again.  I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have
> been simpler.  This is not the case.

I don't believe *threatening* the developers with *your* decision will
have *little* effect.
 
> Another problem in 2.8:

?? bug report number ??

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[maderios]

On 08/11/2012 11:40 PM, Gfxuser wrote:

On 11.08.12 at 23:19 maderios wrote:


For me,  "export" word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To 
jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start.
You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the 
contrary



Hi Maderios,

the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists 
during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an 
article about it at 
http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes.
Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of 
postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and 
concerns are answered there.


Best regards,

grafxuser

Hi grafxuser

The problem is not "to understand" !  All I know, all I see,  is that 
the change "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too.
I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and 
sweat. Unfortunately   this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so, 
logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8. This is final unless Gimp-2.6 
facilities "save" and "save as" are available again.
I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have been simpler. 
This is not the case.


Another problem in 2.8:
When you open a file like bird.jpeg, the file name "bird.jpeg" doesnt 
appear in the title bar. I only see "bird imported"...

It is very important to see in the window which file type you edit.

Best regards
Maderios
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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Daniel Hauck]

On 08/12/2012 07:25 AM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

Why oh why does this have to go on?


Oh, and just to add one other thing:

Why, in the "File->Save as..." dialog do other graphical file formats 
appear in the file browsing?  If this is to be a consistent behavior, 
why taunt the user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and 
other files and then not allow them to save in that format?  When you 
try, a dialog box comes up saying "nope!  you want to do that, go do 
this other thing."  Imagine being at an intersection on the road, then 
turning right only to find a sign appears saying "you can't turn right 
here" *after* you made the turn already!


If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working.  If the purpose is 
to educate people about something, then the message was lost with 
confusion and negative emotional response.


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Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Patrick Shanahan]

* kiwi_steve  [08-12-12 03:40]:
> >But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are 
> >taking about this is totally unjustified. 
> 
> Then why are they getting it?

Because people feel they are *owed* but have no investment in the creation
and/or further development.  
 
> >*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration.
> >and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply 
> >for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image 
> >editing software out there without being paid for it!
> 
> As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as
> to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact
> percentage - maybe its more than half.
> 
> >> I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was,
> >> or at the very least have a "legacy save" option users can activate
> >> in the options so people like the original poster, myself and all the
> >> others who use Gimp regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow
> >> option can be happy again.
> 
> >If you would read previous posts, you would know why this is not going 
> >to happen. As I stated earlier, if you really want it changed that 
> >badly, please feel free to modify the GIMP code.
> 
> I have read a lot of posts,

But not here or you would know that Akkana Peck has writen a plug-in to
provide the action you desire.

> and its a shame they've taken that stand. As I mentioned, I wonder if
> they would be so hard-nosed about it if it wasn't free and their income
> depended on their decisions.  

In other words, they are free to change GIMP as they see fit since they
have ownership, ie: you do not *have* to use it.

> Fortunately for me, 2.6 does most of what I need.

Then what is your point?

-- 
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[Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[Daniel Hauck]

Why oh why does this have to go on?

In F/OSS projects, we have seen the results of projects upsetting the 
users and developers in XFree86 and more recently in GNOME.  The result 
is that the project becomes irrelevant.


While the new behavior in GiMP is certainly more correct and more 
appropriate (I agree with the motion, but not the action) one has to 
take into account the human side of the issue.  Let's look on this from 
an angle from which many of us can certainly identify.


The name "Jesus" is correctly pronounced [hey-soos'].  Yet, when 
speaking of the religious figure with the name spelled "J-e-s-u-s" it is 
pronounced as [jee'-zuhs].  It is most certainly 'incorrect' by 
technical standards to pronounce the latter in any way other than 
[hey-soos'] and yet it will upset people tremendously if/when you do.


Now let's look at what we're experiencing here with GiMP.  Kind of the 
same thing right?  We're challenging the status quo of GUI behavior 
based on millions of man-years of user experience where "Save" saves a 
file in the same name and format it was opened and "Save as..." gives 
the user a chance to change the name and/or format.  This has been a 
defacto standard behavior in GUIs for decades.  This move was bound to 
upset people and it has.  The whole point of the GUI is to be consistent 
and predictable.


Now I'll insert my own pet peeve here.  Lotus Notes.  The client found 
in 6.5 which is STILL in use in some large companies, has decided that 
the F5 key means "lock the client requiring a password to open it."  
Secondly, when does an APPLICATION need to be locked? It's the screen 
which needs to be locked, not the app!  Firstly, F5 has always been 
"Refresh" as far as I'm concerned and most users agree with this 
expectation.  And after three years of using Lotus Notes, I am STILL not 
quite used to it and have to consciously think each time I want to do a 
refresh and this is now thinking which I normally wouldn't need to do... 
thinking which interrupts other flows and thinking which interrupts the 
way I work even outside of Lotus Notes.  And when I use other programs 
and OSes and press F5, I am reminded of how much Lotus Notes upsets me.


And this is not even an extreme example from my own personal 
experience... just a more recent and common one which which other Lotus 
Notes users will agree.


And I would also like to point out that a GUI is a HUMAN interface. It's 
how humans interact with software in this case.  Since when is a GUI to 
be used as a means of correcting human thought and behavior?


I have already demonstrated how software behavior can upset people and 
have indicated how upset users can affect projects.  So what can or 
should we expect from developers?  Nothing.  As they have rightly 
pointed out, this is their project.  They decide where it goes and why.  
Users don't [usually] pay for or contribute to the project monetarily.  
(Though that makes a good argument when they do and that the developers 
who accept contributions or payment are obligated to listen and respond 
to the users.)  And developers don't [usually] get paid for their work.  
So what should we expect from all of this controversy and discussion?


I think it's pretty clear what users and developers want and they aren't 
the same.  And there is the very human issue of pride now at stake as 
well.  "It's *my project* and I don't have to change it for anyone!"  
"Why do I need to apologize for being correct or doing the right 
thing?!"  But I would like to say to developers the following:


1. You will NEVER be able to teach the Christian people of the U.S. to 
say [hey-soos'] instead of [jee'-zuhs].  Never.
2. You will NEVER be able to change the existing GUI users expectations 
over "Save/Save as..." and to do so causes an abrasive user experience 
which will never go away causing a seething hate which persists and even 
grows with every click not only within the GiMP but within every program 
which uses the accepted standard behavior of "Save/Save as..."


The goal, purpose or intent may be to be more correct or even to help 
save the user and his projects from his own human mistakes.  I certainly 
identify with those ideas and often which I could address those issues 
myself.  But as a systems administrator and support engineer, I have 
learned you simply cannot expect to change a person's whole world or 
mind through a single project or endeavor and trying to do so will 
result in nothing good.


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[Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

[kiwi_steve]

>But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are 
>taking about this is totally unjustified. 

Then why are they getting it?

>*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration.
>and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply 
>for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image 
>editing software out there without being paid for it!

As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to the 
figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact percentage - 
maybe its more than half.

>> I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, or at 
>> the very least have a "legacy save" option users can activate in the options 
>> so people like the original poster, myself and all the others who use Gimp 
>> regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow option can be happy again.

>If you would read previous posts, you would know why this is not going 
>to happen. As I stated earlier, if you really want it changed that 
>badly, please feel free to modify the GIMP code.

I have read a lot of posts, and its a shame they've taken that stand. As I 
mentioned, I wonder if they would be so hard-nosed about it if it wasn't free 
and their income depended on their decisions. Fortunately for me, 2.6 does most 
of what I need.

>Sorry if this email sounded harsh in any way. I'm not trying to downplay 
>your concerns, but I am getting rather tired of the same old arguments 
>being brought up and hashed out again and again.

Sorry if my reply sounds like I didn't buy any of what you said... its just 
that I didn't.

>Devs, IIRC, something came up awhile back about putting this in the FAQ. 
>Do you think someone could make a webpage just explaining all of this so 
>the GIMP user community can put this subject to rest? =)

A FAQ will fix it?  Awesome, how do I install that FAQ in GIMP so that the save 
behaviour returns to how it was... is there a FAQ for that?

Face it, its not going to be put to rest because too many people are upset by 
this change.  Gimp used to be a great photo editor, now its useful but 
cumbersome to use because even if you open a JPG you can't even change the size 
and just save-as a JPG - that is just utter nonsense.

Finally, I too am sorry if this sounded harsh, but I'm quite annoyed about it.  
I shouldn't have to learn whatever language GIMP is written in, troll through 
the (assumed) 10's of thousands of lines of code and revert the menu back to 
what makes sense for those using GIMP for photo editing.  That creates a fork, 
and if it suits people they will start using it... THAT will split the 
community... and the developer resources.

I'll say it again because I think its an idea with merit (and not without 
foundation, given the new integrated single-window mode which can be turned on 
or off) - make the menu options a... well... option!  Give the users the 
decision instead of taking it away and causing all the grief that this has.

Steve

-- 
kiwi_steve (via gimpusers.com)
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