Re: Nobody does it better [was Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails]
On Wed, 11 May 2005, David Marrs wrote: Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:52:46 +0100 From: David Marrs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Nobody does it better [was Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails] Alan Horkan wrote: ...GNU Image Manipulation Program... Ah, so I'm not the only one who writes Cinepaint on his CV. :) Forget that group layer effect nonsense, the biggest advantage Photoshop has over GIMP is that its name doesn't conjure images of a leather man kept on a leesh with his mouth zippered shut! Please let's not get into that discussion again. As you can already tell I try and make an effort to use the full name of the GNU Image Manipulation Program and get on with it. Sven has made it clear that the name will not be changed http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/diary.html?start=144 Even if people did want to change the name the practical difficulties are quite significant. I do not think there is anything new we can say on the subject. I was deliberately trying to change the subject and talk about the things we do like and take a more optimistic look. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
RE: Nobody does it better [was Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails]
I would very sincerely be interested to know other things you can do with the GNU Image manipulation program that cannot be done with other software, particuarly things that cannot be done in Adobe Photoshop. No need to go into the obvious well known issues of price, and Free Software which although important have been discussed to death many times before and are usually given as the best reasons for using the gimp (they are very good reasons). - Alan H. One thing that just came to mind... in Photoshop you can adjust brush size with a slider bar. In GIMP, I don't see a way of adjusting brush size on-the-fly. Please point it out to me if I am missing it. About brushes... Corel's Paintshop Pro and Painter seem to have much better on-the-fly brush settings than Photoshop or GIMP. But that is more about simulating painting. Kalle ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Nobody does it better [was Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails]
[please trim the subject line in your responses] On Sun, 8 May 2005, Tom Williams wrote: Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:12:15 -0700 From: Tom Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: gimp user gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails Kalle Ounapuu wrote: The bug-tracker serves it's purpose, but you can't expect everyone to be reading it over before making any comment about GIMP. I agree. People use Gimp (or try to) and have a problem or criticism and post their feedback here instead of filing bug/enhancement reports or looking to see what is already documented in Bugzilla, etc. Maybe there are GIMP users who would love everyone to drop Photoshop (or whatever) and use GIMP. You know, I'm not sure this is really the case. At least not based on discussion I've seen on this mailing list. I think a lot of frustration stems from people slamming Gimp for simply not looking, feeling, behaving, or tasting exactly like PhotoShop. It's almost like if it's not PhotoShop, it's crap. I think most users are frustrated by the gimp and less frustrated by photoshop and the easiest way for them to express that is to make simple comparisons rather than being able to suggest better ways to do things. The focus tends to be on what PhotoShop does that Gimp doesn't do and almost no mention is made of the things Gimp can do that PhotoShop can't. What can the GNU Image Manipulation Program do that Adobe Photoshop cannot do? Please do tell. I have recently pointed out that the gimp allows you to have files with multiple layers in Indexed Mode and photoshop does not. I would like to be able to expand on this list of things I know the gimp can do better. I would very sincerely be interested to know other things you can do with the GNU Image manipulation program that cannot be done with other software, particuarly things that cannot be done in Adobe Photoshop. No need to go into the obvious well known issues of price, and Free Software which although important have been discussed to death many times before and are usually given as the best reasons for using the gimp (they are very good reasons). - Alan H. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
Kalle Ounapuu wrote: The bug-tracker serves it's purpose, but you can't expect everyone to be reading it over before making any comment about GIMP. I agree. People use Gimp (or try to) and have a problem or criticism and post their feedback here instead of filing bug/enhancement reports or looking to see what is already documented in Bugzilla, etc. Maybe there are GIMP users who would love everyone to drop Photoshop (or whatever) and use GIMP. You know, I'm not sure this is really the case. At least not based on discussion I've seen on this mailing list. I think a lot of frustration stems from people slamming Gimp for simply not looking, feeling, behaving, or tasting exactly like PhotoShop. It's almost like if it's not PhotoShop, it's crap. The focus tends to be on what PhotoShop does that Gimp doesn't do and almost no mention is made of the things Gimp can do that PhotoShop can't. If so, they will have to deal with more of this. I think constructive criticism on Gimp's UI, usability, features or missing features is what is desired much more than the Gimp sucks cuz it can't do this obscure thing PhotoShop can kinds of comments. Not everyone can spend the time to search something out, or in fact they don't care, they would rather voice it out right away. Yep, you're right on the money here. I think the bulk of the new Gimp users don't even think to look at Bugzilla or maybe even the mailing list archives before posting their comments since they are frustrated or focused on what they are trying to do with Gimp and simply post questions or comments to get immediate help. I know I tend to do the same from time to time but I try to search the mailing list archives before posting a question to see if it has already been discussed. Peace... Tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sven Neumann Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 2:49 PM To: Gezim Hoxha Cc: gimp user Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails Hi, Gezim Hoxha [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 07:04 -0700, Carol Spears wrote: a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. I'm not sure who they are, but if you're referring to people in this list that are not afraid to admit gimp's weaknesses, these people have every right to point them out. You can't fix a problem if you don't even accept it. Lack of layer effects is not a problem? You are perfectly right that it is important to point out weak spots. The discussions that have been happening on this list lately have however not pointed out a singleq weak spots that wouldn't have been well-known already. Bringing up stuff that is already in the bug-tracker and on the roadmap for years doesn't really help anyone. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
It seems that some Photoshop users have this notion that GIMP was meant to be the David to Adobe's Goliath. Maybe it's just me, but I see GIMP as developing into its own application rather than being a mere Photoshop clone. I think that unfortunately, some people who slam GIMP are of the hand it to me on a silver platter mentality rather than simply not knowing how to use GIMP. Some don't want to tackle any kind of significant learning curve ... some do but are impatient. I've used GIMP for a long while now, and will stand by it -- especially since it's such a well-developed open-source application. Yes, there is room for improvement, and I believe it'll come, but if the basis of the GIMP-slammer's rant is that it isn't like Photoshop, it won't matter how good GIMP gets. L8rz! - Del'riaan On Sun, 08 May 2005 08:12:15 -0700, Tom Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kalle Ounapuu wrote: The bug-tracker serves it's purpose, but you can't expect everyone to be reading it over before making any comment about GIMP. I agree. People use Gimp (or try to) and have a problem or criticism and post their feedback here instead of filing bug/enhancement reports or looking to see what is already documented in Bugzilla, etc. Maybe there are GIMP users who would love everyone to drop Photoshop (or whatever) and use GIMP. You know, I'm not sure this is really the case. At least not based on discussion I've seen on this mailing list. I think a lot of frustration stems from people slamming Gimp for simply not looking, feeling, behaving, or tasting exactly like PhotoShop. It's almost like if it's not PhotoShop, it's crap. The focus tends to be on what PhotoShop does that Gimp doesn't do and almost no mention is made of the things Gimp can do that PhotoShop can't. If so, they will have to deal with more of this. I think constructive criticism on Gimp's UI, usability, features or missing features is what is desired much more than the Gimp sucks cuz it can't do this obscure thing PhotoShop can kinds of comments. Not everyone can spend the time to search something out, or in fact they don't care, they would rather voice it out right away. Yep, you're right on the money here. I think the bulk of the new Gimp users don't even think to look at Bugzilla or maybe even the mailing list archives before posting their comments since they are frustrated or focused on what they are trying to do with Gimp and simply post questions or comments to get immediate help. I know I tend to do the same from time to time but I try to search the mailing list archives before posting a question to see if it has already been discussed. Peace... Tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sven Neumann Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 2:49 PM To: Gezim Hoxha Cc: gimp user Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails Hi, Gezim Hoxha [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 07:04 -0700, Carol Spears wrote: a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. I'm not sure who they are, but if you're referring to people in this list that are not afraid to admit gimp's weaknesses, these people have every right to point them out. You can't fix a problem if you don't even accept it. Lack of layer effects is not a problem? You are perfectly right that it is important to point out weak spots. The discussions that have been happening on this list lately have however not pointed out a singleq weak spots that wouldn't have been well-known already. Bringing up stuff that is already in the bug-tracker and on the roadmap for years doesn't really help anyone. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
Hi, Kalle Ounapuu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The bug-tracker serves it's purpose, but you can't expect everyone to be reading it over before making any comment about GIMP. Maybe there are GIMP users who would love everyone to drop Photoshop (or whatever) and use GIMP. If so, they will have to deal with more of this. Not everyone can spend the time to search something out, or in fact they don't care, they would rather voice it out right away. Sure, no problem. Go ahead. Seriously, any kind of criticism should be allowed on this list and will be welcomed if it tries to be productive. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
Eric P wrote: David Marrs wrote: I *am* very grateful for the GIMP and think it says much for the spirit of free software. I also think it has some way to go before it becomes a mature product, Huh... the Gimp is not mature? Thank you for sharing that. I honestly didn't know! Shit... and while I'm at it, I best let my boss know ASAP that he's been paying me in a professional capacity to use an app that's not mature. It's a wonder I've gotten anything done at all! ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user Refined, then. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
Hi, Gezim Hoxha [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 07:04 -0700, Carol Spears wrote: a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. I'm not sure who they are, but if you're referring to people in this list that are not afraid to admit gimp's weaknesses, these people have every right to point them out. You can't fix a problem if you don't even accept it. Lack of layer effects is not a problem? You are perfectly right that it is important to point out weak spots. The discussions that have been happening on this list lately have however not pointed out a singleq weak spots that wouldn't have been well-known already. Bringing up stuff that is already in the bug-tracker and on the roadmap for years doesn't really help anyone. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
RE: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
The bug-tracker serves it's purpose, but you can't expect everyone to be reading it over before making any comment about GIMP. Maybe there are GIMP users who would love everyone to drop Photoshop (or whatever) and use GIMP. If so, they will have to deal with more of this. Not everyone can spend the time to search something out, or in fact they don't care, they would rather voice it out right away. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sven Neumann Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 2:49 PM To: Gezim Hoxha Cc: gimp user Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails Hi, Gezim Hoxha [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 07:04 -0700, Carol Spears wrote: a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. I'm not sure who they are, but if you're referring to people in this list that are not afraid to admit gimp's weaknesses, these people have every right to point them out. You can't fix a problem if you don't even accept it. Lack of layer effects is not a problem? You are perfectly right that it is important to point out weak spots. The discussions that have been happening on this list lately have however not pointed out a singleq weak spots that wouldn't have been well-known already. Bringing up stuff that is already in the bug-tracker and on the roadmap for years doesn't really help anyone. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
for how many years now does Photoshop(TM) get free advertising on this mail list and the only thing that have to fill the free time with is that layers effect thing? a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. do any gimp users think this is helping them? carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
Carol Spears wrote: for how many years now does Photoshop(TM) get free advertising on this mail list and the only thing that have to fill the free time with is that layers effect thing? a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. do any gimp users think this is helping them? carol I think you have to accept that, on a gimp forum, people are going to discuss what they like and what they don't like about the gimp, while inevitably comparing it to the alternatives that are available. It's also a fact that people post to a user forum with problems more than they post with tales of glee. Perhaps that's a shame; I think it's inevitable. Since you bring it up, I was thinking just earlier today how frustrated I get when something suddenly stops working and I need to stop what I'm doing and look through the manual to find out what's wrong. The manual, btw, is always close at hand. I was wondering if it's' something I should discuss with the list or not. How can the interface be improved? What are its short comings? Does anyone else have this problem with it? Judging by Carey Bunks's FAQ section at the end of every chapter of Grokking the GIMP, yes. It would be nice to see some discussion of the GIMP's design, or its roadmap, or to feel that one can be involved in this project other than just by submitting bug reports or hacking code. As for layer effects, well perhaps you should ask the users what it is they get out of them. Who knows? You might learn something. Sometimes the GIMP helps me, sometimes it hinders me. That's how it is. Not being a programmer, there's not much I can do directly to change it. And since you'd rather I bite my lip about it, it's unlikely that anybody else will do anything about it either. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
David Marrs wrote: Sometimes the GIMP helps me, sometimes it hinders me. That's how it is. Not being a programmer, there's not much I can do directly to change it. And since you'd rather I bite my lip about it, it's unlikely that anybody else will do anything about it either. Actually, that was a bit of a terse reply, now that I read it back. I can appreciate that you may well have put a lot into the GIMP as a developer and would like to see a bit of encouragement from its users. I *am* very grateful for the GIMP and think it says much for the spirit of free software. I also think it has some way to go before it becomes a mature product, but I think that it is only a matter of time before it is at least on a par with products like Photoshop, unless software patents beat us to it. But I would like to see more direct involvement with the users. It seems that you have the developers on the one hand and the users on the other. The developers provide a new release, the users assess it, the developers consider the criticism and the cycle continues. Inkscape has a much more social nature. Everyone chips in; it feels very much like it's our software. There are requests for users to help out in various ways and everyone can help somehow if he wants to. There's also a clear roadmap so that we can see what's coming and make suggestions about how certain features might be implemented. Their mailing list is much more optimistic because, I think, users feel that this is their project that they are helping make. I'm not sure that users feel that way about the GIMP. I don't, to be honest. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
David Marrs wrote: I *am* very grateful for the GIMP and think it says much for the spirit of free software. I also think it has some way to go before it becomes a mature product, Huh... the Gimp is not mature? Thank you for sharing that. I honestly didn't know! Shit... and while I'm at it, I best let my boss know ASAP that he's been paying me in a professional capacity to use an app that's not mature. It's a wonder I've gotten anything done at all! ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] when even free advertising fails
On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 07:04 -0700, Carol Spears wrote: a forum where they can constantly bombard and belittle TheGIMP and are free to do so and the best they can pull out of their over-extended reasoning is this layers effect stuff. I'm not sure who they are, but if you're referring to people in this list that are not afraid to admit gimp's weaknesses, these people have every right to point them out. You can't fix a problem if you don't even accept it. Lack of layer effects is not a problem? ...Just ask the serious graphic developers. -Gezim ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
