Re: [h-cost] Panniers question

[Carol Kocian]

 There is an odd dress from the 1920s, I think in the Met - it 
has panniers and a train.  It was worn at court, so I guess the order 
against panniers did not last forever!


 -Carol


Suzi said,
The wide pannier continued at the English court, as Court Dress, 
until the death of Queen Charlotte (well in to the 19th century) as 
it was her preference. I believe the Prince Regent hated the 
fashion, and as soon as his mother was dead, ordered that it should 
not be worn again. I do not have chapter and verse for his feelings, 
but I do have fashion plates of Regency style bodices, with panniers 
starting under the bust!!



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Holiday/Secret Santa gifts

[Carol Kocian]

 Naturally mine was waiting for me today when I got home. :-) 
Sue Clemenger sent some chocolate truffles (Yum!) and a beautiful 
blank book covered in green velvet, with a Celtic knotwork animal 
design embossed into it.  Very cool, thank you!


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] re: knit stockings

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Kelly,

 Ok, I'm convinced the cut-from-yardgoods stockings existed. 
Come to think of it, there is a stocking I looked at from around 1880 
that fit the category - one of the fancy knit fabrics that probably 
could not have been done any other way.


 However, I thought you said the cut & sewn were the most common 
for mid-19th century.  I have not seen that in extant stockings in 
museum collections.  There are certainly hand-knit stockings, and 
those that are knit to shape.



From
The employments of women: a cyclopaedia of woman's work./ By Virginia Penny.
Penny, Virginia, b. 1826.Penny, Virginia,  How women can make money.
Boston: Walker, Wise, & Company1863.

Hosiers:
A knitting machine has been invented in Seneca, N. Y., that is said 
to knit a perfect stocking in less than five minutes. Aikens's 
knitting machines are very popular. We have thought ladies would do 
well to try them, and devote themselves to making up hosiery. We' 
doubt not but it would pay very well. - The cloth is knit in a 
straight piece, and another lady cuts it into shape and sews into 
the articles wanted.
Work done by steam power is not so neat; the selvages are not well 
made, and the goods must be cut and sewed in seams. Many women are 
employed in hosiery manufactures where steam is used.


 Is this an advertisement for ladies to buy this machine and use 
it at home?  It's a bit confusing considering they mention steam 
power.  Having to cut the yardgoods to shape does not seem like 
knitting the perfect stocking.



From:
The new American cyclopaedia: a popular dictionary of general 
knowledge. Ed. by George Ripley and Charles A. Dana ...
Ripley, George, ed. Dana, Charles A. ed. (Charles AndersonNew York 
[etc]: D. Appleton and company1859-1863.


Stocking:
The shaping of the web to fit the foot is matter of no little 
ingenuity. The flat web is either knit in long strips of sufficient 
width to make when turned over several stockings which are cut out 
from the web.


 And this was common?  What I've seen in machine-made originals 
is cotton stockings getting finer and finer, as the spinning and the 
knitting machines become finer.  Clocking is done with openwork 
stitches, which becomes more and more subtle as the gauge gets finer. 
The examples I've seen are knit to shape and seamed up the back, 
which I can tell because the seam allowance is very tiny - a stitch 
or two wide.



From:
The Hosiery Resource Centre

Full-fashioned stockings are knitted flat, than fashioned, or 
shaped, by hand manipulation and hand seamed up the back.


 That seems to say the shaping is done after the knitting.  The 
earlier machines did require hand-manipulation to make the increases 
and decreases, but that was on the machine as each row was knit. 
These days full-fashioned means the item was shaped as it was knitted 
and then assembled.  I'm not sure what the meaning was at the time 
this was written.


Knitting is back and forth across the fabric (weft knitting) on a 
straight-bar machine invented by William Cotton in 1864. The 
stocking is started at the top with the welt, an extra-thick section 
for gartering. The fabric is shaped by reducing the number of 
needles at the ankle, then adding needles at the heel, and again 
reducing the number through the foot.


 So this one is shaped by the machine, not shaped by cutting.

  Seamless stockings are knitted on circular machines, brought out 
in the mid-19th century. For many years such stockings were a 
straight, knitted tube that did not fit as well as the 
full-fashioned, because stitches cannot be added or dropped in 
circular knitting by machine. (I've seen reference to these as 
"leg-bags", obviously not a compliment in an age which prized a trim 
ankle!)


 The circular machine was first seen in the 1790s, first used for 
hats.  The earliest stockings I've seen (extant) are dated 1840. 
(I'm not sure when this type was first made, but the machine 
capability was there earlier).  Anyway, these 1840 stockings are 
quite interesting - the foot is seamed with the typical flap heel, 
and there is a dart taken in the ankle/lower calf area for shaping. 
The other unique thing - the few examples I saw have the design 
printed on rather than embroidered or knit in.  It's curious that 
someone in 1840 would think to do this, but it was not done later. 
But these things happen.


 Another thing I noticed developing in the 19thC - reinforcement 
threads added to the heel.  I'm not sure if that is something 
reenactors do for the Civil War era.


 I agree that modern knit fabric is stretchier than that found in 
earlier periods, based on the originals I have been able to examine. 
However, with this method I am able to mimic the technique used in 
the period with 100% natural materials and end up with a product 
that fits and is closer to period stockings than anything currently 
being offered by vendors - it works for me


 I heard that someone was

Re: [h-cost] Re: knitting stockings

[Carol Kocian]

Kathleen said,
I have a friend who "does" 18th Century.  She is currently knitting 
stockings on a wooden frame about 8" diameter.  This is set with 
wooden pegs and the fiber is worked in much the same manner as the 
Knitty-knobby one might use to make cording.  She says that one can 
even turn a heel!!


 People have been looking for info on this as an early practice. 
"Frame knit" stockings in the 18th century meant they were made on a 
machine that was invented by Reverend Lee in the 16thC.  There is a 
small item that may have been used as a frame to knit purses, but no 
evidence yet on peg frames being used for stockings.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Re: socks/stocking etc.

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Mia,

 Ok, since you mention Cowpens, I'm guessing you're doing Rev War?

Hey Carol K, e-friend and sock guru,  thanks for all the info on 
machine/frame knit sock (what is the correct term, or are all the 
terms correct, but for different techniques?)


 Framework knitting, stocking looms, stocking frames - there are 
a number of terms.  The confusion comes in because peg frame 
enthusiasts also call them knitting frames.  Sigh, terminology...


  The spousal unit (Corporal Dappert) bought a pair or the machine 
knit Civil war socks.  in coton.  they look good (to me, but I only 
know enought to be dangerous),  they are in natural color cotton, 
and have no elastic.  and very little give.  They are supremely hard 
to get on and off..  I'll have to dig them out and look at the heel 
to see what kind of heel was put in.


 Are you talking about antique 19th century stockings or repros 
that are made for Civil War reenactors?


 Besides the ever-popular cotton/nylon stockings we have for 
reenactment, I've also found a thinner cotton stocking through an 
Amish source.  Sorry, it was 15 years ago and I don't remember the 
source exactly!


  real period socks and stocking can be a challenge for those of us 
in the reecacting world.Which is why I went to not-so-authentic, 
but faster to produce cut from whole cloth stockings.  The have that 
clock, which is missing from so many commerically availble socks.


 I think you mean they have that gusset or gore.  Clocking or 
chevening is the decoration on the stocking, either knit in or 
embroidered or both.


 And cut & sewn from woven cloth is authentic.  But by the Rev 
War era they seem to be a coarse option, and are you portraying a 
coarse person?  (Some do the army & camp life, some do gentry and 
manor life.)


I'm still experimenting with different fabrics for the stiffness 
factor.  I have a piece of wool jersey that has been washed and 
fulled up nicely, AND is a bit stiffer.  Do you know what the 
frequency is of stockings done in wool, but not knitted (Just 
general is good...)


 Wouldn't that be nice - a statistic for each decade on cut & 
sewn from woven cloth, hand knit at home, hand knit and purchased, 
frame knit, silk, wool, cotton, thread


 People like to speculate on this, and I think it was the 
18cWoman list where Paul Dickfoss mentioned whether frame knit or 
hand knit was used more.


 Certainly hand knit was seen in the actual 18th Century more 
than we see it among reenactors.  :-)


 What it comes down to, is what seems the most likely for the 
role you are playing in reenactment?  The thread was started by 
Bjarne looking for "gentleman's" stockings (although I still don't 
know what decade and what purpose).


 As a campfollower (I'm assuming again!) who were you before the 
army?  (I'm sure you've gone through that already...)


 Until I get a stocking frame up & running, the only absolute 
authentic stockings for Rev War reenactment are hand knit and cut & 
sewn from woven cloth.  But there are plenty of compromises out 
there, and the plain cotton/nylon are good in the sense that they do 
not draw attention to themselves.  And Colleen Humphries often 
advocates the theatrical solution of black shoes and black stockings, 
which "disappear" and compromises are not obvious.


 There are some clocked stockings out there sold by suppliers, 
which are attention-getting and I have not yet seen a pair done 
correctly.  (And those are machine embroidered on a typical 
cotton/nylon stocking, no gusset.) Remember that clocking is done on 
BOTH SIDES of period stockings.  Many of those offered for sale are 
clocked on only one side.  Also the motifs are sometimes placed in 
the wrong place on the ankle, or out of proportion to the original. 
And they are patterned after originals that are from the first half 
of the century and would have been out of style by the Rev War.


 Ok, with all that info have I managed to completely avoid your 
exact question?


 Also for everyone interested in stockings I recommend the 
Historicknit list, a Yahoo group, where we discuss knitting of all 
time periods.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: socks/stocking etc.

[Carol Kocian]

Carolyn said
I'm not much of a knitter, but I have a book called "Folk Socks", 
which has every kind of heel I ever say, and several I never did 
before, all with knitting instructions for them.  (I haven't been 
following this thread, so I don't know if this book has been 
mentioned.)  It also has many kinds of toe, also with instructions.


 What I love about this book (author - Nancy Bush) is that heels 
and toes are very nicely described and illustrated.  She does not say 
when the different heels and toes are used, but the definitions are 
very nice.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] re:knit stockings (long)

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Kelly,

I never said they were the most common, I said they were the best 
available option; documented period technique using period 
appropriate fibers.


 Ok, that's different, then.

What dating criteria have you been using in your examinations? As 
you previously stated this was not a period technique, perhaps you 
misinterpreted what you were examining.


 The book I started with is _Socks & Stocking_ by Jeremy Farrell. 
It's out of print, but available through book searches.  Also the 
Chapman books, which are a history of the technology, patents, etc, 
and then anything else I can get my hands on.  I've looked at 
stockings in many collections in the US (east coast) and England, 
taking in the dates they assign to the objects and sometimes leaving 
notes suggesting a different date.  It's fun to see the results of 
the technology in an antique stocking.


 As far as a cut and sewn stocking, they would need to have a 
seam allowance because otherwise the stocking would come apart very 
quickly.  What I see are stockings knit to shape, where there is a 
seam with about one or two knit stitches on the inside.


 And I have seen the seam allowances on the stockings made from 
fancy knit fabrics, so I can see the difference.


 Back to period techniques - Farrell cites the circular knitter, 
improved in 1840.  "Although admired for its speed, it could only 
make a tube which had to be cut and sewn into stockings. By 1845 the 
hosiery industry was just beginning to crawl out of a recession and 
'cut ups' were seen as an unacceptable cheapening of the product."


 That's where I got the impression that it was not being done 
commonly, and additionally there was a lot of improvement of 
machinery that could shape the stockings as they were knit.  Farrell 
cites an improvement patented in 1838 of a wide frame where stitches 
were shifted automatically, so shaping did not have to be a hand 
operation as it was in the 18th and early 19thC.


Also, we are all aware that the items in museums tend to be 
representative of those fine, expensive items of the upper classes 
as opposed to the common everyday items of the middle or lower 
classes, which were usually used and reused until nothing was left.


 But there are plainer items in some museums.  Especially in the 
case of industry, samples are kept to illustrate what was being made, 
and the technological improvements can be seen.  The Nottingham 
costume museum has many stockings of this sort.


The employments of women also states that one single factory was 
employing 700 women to sew stockings, unfortunately it does not 
state how many per day they could complete, but that's a very large 
workforce for the time period - there most have been a demand for 
the product.


 Absolutely!  Stockings were knit flat and shaped with the 
increases/decreases in the sides of the piece, which became the back 
seam.  The seaming could also be outsourced, as well as the 
embroidery.  Even the circular knit stockings needed to have the 
soles sewn together and the toes sewn up, until the introduction of 
the short-row heel.  Sewn toes are still a part of hosiery 
manufacture, which I just checked on the socks I'm wearing today. 
And while the circular knits might not be desirable for ladies, they 
were worn by children.


 Stockings did not need to be cut in order to be sewn - the 
machine wrought hose had sewing as part of the finishing process. 
Not only that, seamed nylons were in common use through the middle of 
the 20th century.



The Aiken's machine was hand-cranked and focused towards home manufacture.

Steam power was used in the factories. There were issues with 
converting machinery originally intended for hand power to steam 
power. The steam power was so powerful (if not properly regulated) 
that the older equipment frequently did not function optimally - it 
simply couldn't keep up. I suspect in knitted goods, it led to 
imperfect knitting, obviously especially along the selvedges


 Ok, I know that type of machine - I saw the factory in 
Massachusetts.  The machines I primarily research are the hand 
frames, which are body-powered - hands and feet.  There are some 
still around, and the last one ceased producing in a factory in 1985 
when the operator retired.  (Not a typo - this was a mere 21 years 
ago!)


 However you do have power machinery being developed in the 2nd 
quarter 19th century that did produce good quality knitting.


 Another interesting thing I realized at the knitting factory in 
Nottingham - the hand frames could work faster than the modern 
electric powered machines.  The difference is that each hand frame 
needs the full attention of an operator, whereas the roomful of a 
dozen modern machines took four mechanics to keep them running.


 The difference today is that human labor is a more expensive 
part of the equation than it was in earlier centuries.


I believe Mickey Childs 

Re: [h-cost] knit stockings

[Carol Kocian]

OK.  I can make knit yardgoods (5 knitting machines).  What would 
the stitches per inch be?  Is there a decent pattern anywhere?


Hi Julie,

 Kannik's Korner has a pattern for cut & sewn stockings.

 What era are you aiming for?  How fine can your machines knit?

 I suspect they are the home type of flatbed machine.  I have one 
that's supposed to be fine gauge, but I have not yet gotten close to 
the machine-wrought gauge of the 18th century.  (18-20 stitches per 
inch).  Maybe if I started with wool and fulled it down, that might 
help.


 The modern latch-hook machines produce a stretchier fabric than 
the bearded needle machines of the 18thC.  I tried cranking the 
tension up to the tightest, and it's still too stretchy.


 The thing is, knit yardgoods at fine gauges are already 
available at fabric stores.  They are stretchier than antique 
stockings, but they are out there.


 If you can get a non-stretchy 18 stitches per inch, you could 
make stocking pieces to shape.  Knit a few rows, then hook the 
starter edge back onto the hooks to form the welt.  Knit some more, 
then move the outer 2 or 3 stitches one hook to the inside to 
decrease, knit a few rows and decrease, and etc.


 It may take a bit of experimenting, and if you're near me I can 
help and show you original stockings.


 If anyone is interested in seeing my collection, or a slide 
lecture, let me know.  I'm in the Washington, DC area, but it all 
packs up nicely for travel.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] 17th Century French hunting dress

[Carol Kocian]

 Oooh, fun images!  In the hunting costumes the ladies wear their 
hair in the rugged and manly long flowing curls.  Has anyone ever 
seen this hairstyle worn with feminine style dress for this time 
period?


 I also like the high heeled shoes with the ice skates strapped on.  Cool!

 -Carol



http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/leloirX2.htm

It's the 7th image down, Full hunting dress... 1692...

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: 18c stays

[Carol Kocian]

And from all the discussion, it looks like there are a variety of
preferences for the boning:

- cable ties
- reed
- metal


1/4" white steel
1/2" white steel
1/4" spiral
1/2" spiral


- plastic


Dritz featherboning
1/4" Rigiline
1/2" Rigiline
Wissner (the German type) in several widths and thicknesses
And there is another type - I remember seeing it sold by Grannd Garb.

(but it sounds like this is not the ideal option, since plastic is 
sweaty no matter where you live).


 It's all sweaty.  Metal does not "breathe", though I suppose the 
spiral type is more permeable than the white steel.  Rigiline is also 
a woven thing, but it's nylon & polyester.


 A lot of it is a matter of body type and the amount of support 
wanted.  They had fully-boned and half-boned stays.  Half-boned will 
breathe more no matter what boning material is used.


 I never had a problem with sweaty stays - I find a linen shift 
underneath is quite comfy.  At an outdoor event in 90 degrees, 
everyone is hot no matter what they are wearing.  A handkerchief also 
keeps for sun protection.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: Cage crinolines: wire/steel hoops and casings query

[Carol Kocian]

I have at least three crins of this period and the wire in them is 
not quite tubular (think 'linguini and not speggitti).It is flexable 
but is not bent easily. The originals were fiber cased.


 Needle & Thread in Gettysburg, PA (USA) carries this hooping. 
At least they did some years back when I got it.  They have patterns, 
fabric and supplies for historic reenactors.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting Historians?

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Rosecelin,

 A good source of knit historians is the Historic Kint list. 
It's a Yahoogroup,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/historicknit/

 You didn't say what era you friend prefers - different people 
concentrate on different time periods, cultures, etc.  There are a 
lot of great discussions.


 And we have talked about crochet, too, and it's beginnings.  I 
do 18th century and crochet is not around for that era, either.


 -Carol


  Recently there was a discussion about the history of knitting. 
I didn't really pay to much attention to it since I do not knit. 
But a friend of mine is a knitter and wants to talk to anyone who 
does know the history of knitting.
   If you can help, would you please contact me privately so I can 
get my friend in contact with you.


Roscelin

By the way, please excuse this question if it has been discussed. 
When did crocheting come along?  I was told long ago that it 
started after 1650 - Is this true?  I've been trying to convince a 
few of my needlework students that it is out of period for our 
group.

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] colonial

[Carol Kocian]

If pictures in books dont suit your taste, then for a good grovel, a 
CV, and a letter of introduction you can get into the Bath Museum of 
Costume and fondle the real thing. Other museums have their own 
rituals of supplication. 


 Well, my CV is not applicable because I haven't done much 
costume professionally.  I didn't need a letter of introduction, and 
I didn't grovel, either.  Of course, I was just looking at stockings, 
not gowns - maybe they're fussier with the gowns.  A lot of museums 
are open to visits by dedicated amateurs, you just need to phone and 
write ahead of time and understand that many places are understaffed. 
It helps to belong to the Costume Society, and meet curators that 
way.  The more people you meet, the more cool stuff you can see, then 
you meet more people, and see more stuff...


 I started 20 years ago looking at lace at the Met in New York. 
Somebody helpfully told me "all you have to do is make an 
appointment."  And it worked!


 It's nice to arrive bearing gifts - chocolate is always correct. 
And if going over there (wherever "over there" is), books published 
over here are nice, too.


 A lot of people have opportunities to visit collections, so if 
the question is out there then people may remember to look when they 
do have the chance to examine original gowns.


 And then there are the symposium weekends, where a curator 
and/or private collector brings their originals to show off.


 So yes, I believe in looking at originals to learn the 
techniques that were used.


 Also, regarding American vs European - some collections in 
America include European clothing.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Pink Fox Hunting

[Carol Kocian]

Referring to those red fox-hunting jackets as "pinks" raises the 
additional question of just what the British historically meant when 
they called something "pink."

--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer


 My boss, an avid hunter, told me that the red fox-hunting 
jackets are called pink for a man named Pinkerton. I don't remember 
his exact title, Lord Pinkerton, perhaps?


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Alexandrian cap

[Carol Kocian]

 Kind of like a Smurf hat...

 It's soft and fits to the head, except for a tip at the top that 
tends to point or lie forward.


 -Carol



Alas, that helps me not -- what does a Phrygian style hat look like?  : )


otsisto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Would it not be a Phrygian style hat?

-Original Message-
Could someone either describe or point me to a picture of an Alexandrian
cap? I've googled to no avail.

Thank you!
KP

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] semi-OT: waiting for books

[Carol Kocian]

I don't believe in the traditional (and outmoded) female role model 
of constantly saying, "of course, it's only my opinion," "it's just 
my two cents," "your mileage may vary," "what does the rest of the 
group think?" ad nauseum.


 Tone is not apparent on a list like this one, so I think it's 
important to spell out one's opinions and offer citations. 
Statements like those Fran mentions are sometimes used to emphasize 
that the writer is not saying "always" or "never".


 There are plenty of topics in costume research where we can 
state a general trend, which may have rare exceptions.  Or the 
observation is different in another culture or a few decades 
earlier/later.


 It's a soft area of research in many ways, with new information 
found or new experiments attempted.  Some of the statements are a 
shorthand way of saying "This is my own research/experience and 
others may find something different.  I would be very interested to 
hear about any examples in XYZ culture for the years __ to __."


 "YMMV" (Your Mileage May Vary) covers differences in body size, 
price ranges, etc.  As long as people don't get too much into obscure 
acronyms, or too use many assumptions so that their meaning is not 
clear.

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question

[Carol Kocian]

So, I don't need a specific date for the technique, just a ballpark 
half-century or quarter-century in which something visibly 
recognizable as "lace" became commonly used as clothing decoration. 
I know I see recognizable lace all over Elizabethan art, and I don't 
see it in 14th century art. But I don't have a sense for when 
exactly it starts cropping up as a typical feature in depictions of 
clothing.


 In the 18th century, lace was also a woven tape that could be 
used around buttonholes and worked into patterns on some military 
coats.  There are also the laces that go through eyelets to fasten 
things.


 I know what you mean, though, if the author means something like 
that, readers will be looking for string & holes.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Knight's Tale

[Carol Kocian]

"Braveheart"
SharonC., who says "Macbeth" backstage too, and doesn't spit, turn around,
go out and come back in, etc.


 On the Revlist (American Revolution) some people will write 
*spit* after they mention the movie, The Patriot.  It's a testament 
to Mel that there are such reactions to his movies...


 Many people on the Revlist were extras in The Patriot, so they 
had even more personal investment in it.


 The wore their own repro 18thC uniforms (to keep it costume related!)

 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Questions, (both on topic and not)

[Carol Kocian]

I'll have to check.  The guy who invited me is from a unit of 
Highlanders, but I was thinking I'd just stick to my civilian 
clothes.  Unfortunately, those have about everything I need -- 
except a coat.


OTOH, if it's strictly military thing, I'll probably just stick to 
modern stuff.


 Perhaps you would be a campfollower of some sort.  (Yes, men 
were campfollowers, too.)  A drover or supplier of some sort?  Carry 
a notebook and grumble about how long it takes to get paid whenever 
someone is looking...



Are there any good patterns readily available?


 I always used to draft things from Cut of Men's Clothes.  I hear 
the JP Ryan patterns are good.  Steer clear of Pegee of Williamsburg. 
The Revlist would be a good place to ask - it's a Yahoo group called 
Revlist.


 A simpler, unfitted garment is a smock, a working man's garment 
worn over a shirt, waistcoat & breeches.  If it's really hot no one 
would notice if you left off the waistcoat, but you didn't hear that 
from me.  ;->  You can make it from fustian (linen/cotton) or linen 
canvas.


 A sleeved waistcoat is a bit longer than waist length, not as 
long and without the curves and tailoring of a fashionable coat. 
Some guys run around in shirts & waistcoats without a sleeved garment 
on top.  But that's 18th century naked.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] 18thC Bodice, was: A little help please????

[Carol Kocian]

 I second Ann's suggestion of the 18cWoman list!  It's  Yahoo Group.

 There are women's waistcoats, either quilted for warmth and worn 
over stays (and under a gown), or styled like a man's waistcoat and 
worn with a riding habit.


 Jumps are a bit of a mystery, defined as "lightly boned stays". 
Perhaps they could have been corded for structure, but someone 
recently posted a cite for a "bodice" (18thC term) that is corded, 
and different from stays or jumps.


 If your friend knows about jumps, and that the bodice is not 
jumps, maybe she knows more about it!  I'm curious to know how she 
will wear it, what nationality, social class, etc she's portraying. 
There are different things worn in France, for instance, and Fleur de 
Lyse has patterns for Habitante dress.


 But most bodices out there in reenactor land are not good and 
worn incorrectly.  So there's a lot more to it than finding a pattern.


 That being said, you may be able to draft what she wants.  The 
18thC women's shape is generally cone-shaped, no darts, bust fullness 
is raised a bit, and the neckline is low.  Shoulder and side seams 
are placed toward the back, not centered on the body as we do with 
modern clothes.


 -Carol


Been lurking for a couple of weeks now, and heard about the Tudor 
Tailor book, got it and love it..big thanks to all who spoke of it 
before it came out.
Question is, I am Scadian, but have a friend who asked me for a 
pattern for a Rev war era fitted bodice. She said that they were 
incorrectly called Jumps for awhile.  Anyone know what it is I need? 
Any patterns online anywhere?  I can enlarge a print-out, and 
probably fit it without t much problem, but I would not say that 
I am any more than an 'adequate'seamstress.

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Paintings

[Carol Kocian]

 Speaking of historical paintings, what are your favorites for 
costume inspiration?  I'm sure we've all "copied" a portrait to make 
something.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Multiple textile techniques...

[Carol Kocian]

 I learned to crochet first when I was little, and discovered it 
was very easy to shape it various ways.  I was actually resistant to 
knitting, because at the time it was not as interesting.  I remember 
a Girl Scout troop project (I was about 9), knitting scarves.  They 
only showed us garter stitch, and the girls who already knew how to 
knit got smaller needles.  I know now they were keeping it very 
simple for the whole group, but it was torture doing the same thing 
over and over and over!


 I got over that, and I enjoy knitting.  I haven't crocheted in 
years, but I still can if I want to.


 A friend has been trying to teach her daughter to knit (she's 
8), and I may suggest crochet first for her.  It's a lot more instant 
gratification, useful for those with a small attention span.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] The delete button...

[Carol Kocian]

Don't you people know about the DELETE button on your computer?  If 
there is a subject you aren't interested in - delete it.


 I agree - this list covers diverse time periods, and there will 
be topics not of interest to everyone.


 I would like to ask (and I hope it's ok with the management to 
do so!) that people consider whether their note is personal/private 
or not.  We do have the ability to respond privately to a note, 
whether it's to offer a compliment or a concern.  Brainstorming 
through a creative block is useful for many.


 Signal-to-noise ratio is a big reason for people to leave groups 
and start their own.  I think it's great that people discuss 5th 
century Fredonian necklines even if I don't read those notes.  Too 
many personal notes, and I agree with Lalah:



I normally love this list and would hate to lose it as a valuable resource.


 I don't want to lose any of the knowledgeable people we have 
(whether they consider themselves experts or not), many of whom can 
make those 5th century Fredonian necklines interesting!


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Fwd: Unique Internship for Costume Students

[Carol Kocian]

 This was on a museum list.  I e-mailed Eva, and she asked to 
please share with other lists!


-
Hello,

I'm writing in hopes that you know of a talented student who might be 
interested in the following internship at the Merchant's House 
Museum. This is the first time we've offered a position in historic 
costuming, and I think this would be a great opportunity for someone 
who is interested in historic clothing, sewing, or theatrical 
costuming.


Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or recommendations. 
Although the position description is for a volunteer track, the 
Museum is glad to fulfill any requirements necessary for students to 
achieve academic credit.


Yours truly,
Eva Ulz


Historic Costumers Wanted for Productions in NYC's Oldest Preserved Interior

Do you have a passion for historic costume? The Merchant's House 
Museum's education department is seeking creative costumers to help 
create accurate 19th-century clothing for our interpreters. This is a 
great chance to expand your costuming repertoire and get period 
experience. Costumers will work closely with Museum designers to 
research period accuracy and mimic 19th-century construction 
techniques. You'll be able to copy details directly from the Museum's 
extensive costume collection and primary source library.


Some of the costumes we plan to build this fall include mid-19th 
century undergarments (corsets, crinolines, etc.), day dresses, 
mourning clothes, and formal attire. The costumes will be worn by 
actors during Museum events including candlelight ghost tours, a 
recreated 1865 funeral, a musical revue of early 19th-century NYC, 
and our annual holiday caroling festival.


Benefits to You

In addition to helping a worthy cause (educating the public about 
what life was really like in 19th-century New York,):


 -you'll gain the kind of hand-on experience with period 
costuming that couldn't come from anywhere but one of NCY's largest 
single-family costume collections.


 -You'll learn about authentic construction techniques, garment 
shapes, and period research sources.


 -Museum volunteers also receive a staff card which provides free 
admission for you and a guest to most other area museums.


Required Skills

You must be an accomplished stitcher, familiar with a variety of 
construction and finishing techniques. You must be able to construct 
a garment without step-by-step instructions from a hand-drawn pattern 
or draped muslin. Experience with fitting, theatrical costuming, 
historic costume, or the ability to drape and draft patterns is a 
plus.


How to Apply

Send a cover letter, resume/cv (of your related experiences), and - 
if possible - detailed pictures of your work to:


Eva Ulz
Education Coordinator
Merchant's House Museum
29 East Fourth Street
New York, NY 10003

Fax: 212-777-1104
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Merchant's House Museum is New York City's only family home 
preserved intact -- inside and out -- from the 19th century.


Built in 1832 just steps from Washington Square, this elegant 
red-brick and white-marble row house on East Fourth Street was home 
to prosperous merchant Seabury Tredwell and his family for 100 years.
Today, the house offers a rare and intimate glimpse of domestic life 
during the significant period of the 19th century when New York City 
transformed from a colonial seaport to become the center of U.S. 
culture and commerce and a "world city" on a par with London and 
Paris.


Visit www.merchantshouse.org for more 
information.


"Since 1832..."
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: Tango in a Hoop (was [h-cost] What's your dressmaker's wearing?)

[Carol Kocian]

 Also have you tried a bridal shop?  Any time I've seen a  
bride's garter, they are blue and white and sometimes with a little  
ornament (white bell, etc) added.  As far as finding/making things,  
that's something you can assign to a bridesmaid to research and get  
for you.  ;-)


 -Carol


On Dec 8, 2007, at 12:16 AM, otsisto wrote:

Actually, the blue comes from the saying wear something old,  
something new, something borrowed, something blue.

Which was originally:
Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue  
and a silver sixpence in her shoe.

English bridal tradition from the Victorian era.
Most women make the garter as the blue something that is worn, you  
do not have to have the blue garter. Whose telling you have to have  
a blue garter?
You could have a blue ribbon in the bouquet or a little blue bow on  
the slip. Get a white garter and attach a blue bow.
The color blue is alleged to be a symbol of love, modesty and  
fidelity. I think that prior to the Edwardian era, that blue was a  
popular color for wedding dresses but I can't remember where I read  
that.


De

-Original Message-

I don't know if they are planning one of those auctions for me  
though... but I've been instructed to wear a blue garter (another  
tradition), and I can only find white, black, and red ones! Geez,  
another thing I have to make myself...


The idea of dramatically taking off the wide overskirt is great. It  
should even close with velcro, for the nice ripping sound when you  
rip it open.


But I have tried to imagine it, looked at fabrics, and decided that  
I won't have time to do that, I'm flat out already with doing one  
skirt only...


oh just if there wasn't so much choice...

:-)
B M


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Old fashion in fashion

[Carol Kocian]

  Well, recycling old clothes to the current fashion has been  
done throughout history.  I think it's due to the post-WWII  
consumerism that we're not used to it the way our ancestors were.

  Whether something is thrown out or worn to rags, it's gone.  I  
think what vexes many historians is when a garment is dormant for 20  
or more years (stored) and *then* worn to rags or thrown out.   
Sometimes it's a fashion trend (inspired by a period movie, for  
example) and sometimes it's an individual's interest.

  The only way to "prevent" such things is to buy and preserve  
vintage clothing yourself and support museums that do the same.  It's  
all supply and demand.

  Personally, I also cringe at an item that has been altered, or  
an extant gown where someone has cut off the entire placket for the  
buttons (rather than removing them individually). I once bought a  
1920s dress for $5 where the dealer said only the lace was worth  
saving — after a careful washing and light pressing the entire thing  
was in great shape.

  Also there are many people who can reproduce a garment or style  
(out of fresh, new, isn't-going-to-shatter fabric), but some  
customers would rather take their chances with a $50 vintage item  
than pay $250 for a repro.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Old fashion in fashion

[Carol Kocian]

  I have to agree with the person who posted about shoe styles.   
When an era is the current trend, then we have shoes available, as  
well as fabrics and the occasional ready-to-wear item that will do  
for the historic look.  But yes, shoes especially!  Most reenactment  
shoes are pricey, and a worthwhile investment for someone who is  
immersed in a particular time period. Cheaper shoes that pass the  
five-foot-away inspection are a wonderful thing! Sometimes we start  
by "trying out" a time period, or need something for a dance or party  
once a year.

  We all know that fabrics follow the trends, too — colors,  
patterns, etc.  Sometimes brocades are all over the place, and  
sometimes they are hard to find.  Many of us especially enjoy it when  
"our" time period is passing out of fashion, and the items are marked  
down.  :-)

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] crochet 18th C

[Carol Kocian]

On May 7, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Chris Laning wrote:
> As I've said, I'm quite willing to believe Bjarne's example may be   
> chain stitches and attachments made with a hook; I'm not dead set   
> against there being crochet in the 18th century.

> Really, I do understand why people keep trying to find crochet   
> earlier.


  18th Century costume reseachers have known about that example —  
the book from the Met has been out for quite some time!  Also fly  
fringe bits are strung together either with a chain, a braid or a  
woven tape.  Rick Hill of Colonial Williamsburg researched and taught  
fringe-making, showing examples of all.

  Crochet had to develop somehow.  Tambour work was in use  
(although it really gained popularity in the 1780s) — it being a  
chain of embroidery made with a hook.  It's not surprising someone  
would try it as a stand-alone chain.

  Similarly, knotting in the 18thC was done with a shuttle that  
resembled a tatting shuttle.  Tatting as we know it developed later.

  Generally when people ask about crochet or tatting in relation  
to the 18thC, they mean the lace and have a specific example at  
hand.  That's why we often hear it did not exist at the time, it's  
the answer to those questions.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting machines

[Carol Kocian]

On May 13, 2008, at 11:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I also own a very old stocking knitting machine that is circular. I  
> haven't  done anything with that yet. I am curious to see if I  
> could make stockings on it  that re enactors could use.


  It depends on the era and accuracy you're aiming for.  Circular  
knitters were used for stockings in the 19th century.  Prior to that,  
machine-knit stocking were knit flat to shape and seamed up the back  
and along the sides of the foot.  Hand knit stockings were always  
around and knit in the round.

  With a circular sock machine, you could make accurate stockings  
for the 19th and 20th centuries.  For earlier times, you can offer  
colors and materials beyond what is commercially available currently.

  Early knits for stockings, both hand and frame (machine) knit,  
are dense without much stretch.  Latch hook machines make a stretchy  
knit, and even with the tension set very high it's not exactly the same.

  Considering that a most historic costuming means compromise,  
you can provide something that will be useful to earlier reenactors.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting machines

[Carol Kocian]

On May 14, 2008, at 12:38 AM, Lavolta Press wrote:

> How much is it like using a weaving loom?

  With either, it depends on how you set it up and your project.   
The motion of a home knitting machine is to slide the carriage back &  
forth, simpler than raising the sheds and throwing a shuttle in weaving.

  It gets complicated with shaping, but that can be done with  
punch cards on a knitting machine.  Patterns can be done with cards  
as well.

  One approach is to go to a store that sells the machines to see  
the features and capabilities of each.  I visited several stores to  
see different brands.

  It sounds like you have an idea of the type of things you want  
to make.  For historic costume, home knitting machines are most  
suitable for 19th ad 20th century items.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting machines

[Carol Kocian]

On May 14, 2008, at 5:21 PM, Andrew T Trembley wrote:
> Unfortunately, your impression seems to be about right. Both Passap  
> (the most advanced European manufacturer) and Brother (the biggest  
> Japanese manufacturer) no longer produce knitting machines.

  Then maybe secondhand machines would be available.  I guess the  
idea of seeing machines at a shop is less likely, though.

> I'm not sure if it's that knitting machines don't lend themselves  
> to multi-purpose designs, or if it's that they're pretty much  
> useless without at least basic knowledge of hand-knitting. Then  
> again, it could just be that serious knitting machines are large,  
> too large for apartment-dwellers.

  Industrial machines would tend to be more limited, each to its  
particular purpose.  Some are much wider than home machines, can make  
very wide fabric or multiple items at once.   Home machines are made  
to be versatile for varied projects.

  Andy covered the details on gauges.  I think most people would  
start with the medium.  Since large-gauge handknitting goes faster,  
bulky knitters are not as crucial to have.  Fine gauge is also a  
specialty type of machine.

  You may well want to have all three gauges, fully computerized  
and automated.  But the medium would be a good start.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting machines

[Carol Kocian]

On May 14, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:
> I thought fine gauge might be nice for lacey knits.

  Or use thin yarn on a medium gauge machine.

> I suppose I should consider taking up hand knitting, but I've got  
> this childhood block about it. I suppose counting stitches is not  
> so bad if you're an adult. I suppose I was also influenced by my  
> mother's strong preference for crocheting over knitting.

  At least try scarves as a way to learn different stitches.  If  
you hate counting stitches, put a marker every 5 stitches and then  
you will see quickly if you are missing one.  Eventually you will get  
a feel for it and not have to count very much at all.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting machines

[Carol Kocian]

On May 14, 2008, at 10:21 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I should think I could even use my straight knitting machines to  
> make the stockings if I wanted a seam up the back. And even if you  
> knit them by hand  you're going to have some give because of the  
> nature of the stitches.

  You would think so, but when examining originals I can see that  
18th century handknits are done tighter and firmer than is done by  
modern handknitters.  Try knitting with a yarn that is the same  
thickness as your needles and you will be closer to it.

  But again, it all depends on whether you are aiming for exact  
repros, or something that improves on most of what is available and  
people will want.

> But right now I'm more concerned about sewing myself a couple more  
> outfits than making stockings for other people. It's really hard  
> trying to get some sewing done with a retired husband around. Every  
> time I want to go in my sewing room, he thinks  of some other work  
> I should be doing instead.

  If he's recently retired, sounds like he needs to find his own  
work he should be doing.  I take it he was in management?  :-D  I  
hate to suggest he might like the knitting machines, because then you  
still might not get to work with them yourself.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Number of machines.Was Sewing and Embroidery Machines

[Carol Kocian]

> So why do people have so many? Do you not trade in the old one when  
> buying a new one, which is what I do? Do you have machines that do  
> different things?

  Tee hee - sewing machines are like cars, and it's all a matter  
of how you buy them.  Some people upgrade every few years, others get  
something for it's reliability and use it for decades.

  A few years back I had my machine serviced (cleaned & oiled).   
The rather opinionated repairman said he first learned on that  
machine, and exclaimed that he wouldn't give me $5 on a trade-in.  I  
said why would I get rid of a perfectly good machine for only $5?

  There are other machines that are are kept because they are  
sentimental, perhaps inherited.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knitting machines

[Carol Kocian]

On May 15, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bambi TBNL wrote:
> Well actually ...do you remember having the spool with the nails  
> and the yarn got looped over the nail and then you wrapped again  
> and...well if you ever had one...this is making sense...a knitting  
> "loom" is sort of like that concept with the lay the yarn out nd  
> loops come through and ..gosh im not helping am I?
> but they come in a few different forms...
> Bambi


  You're talking about a peg frame, which is not like a modern  
home knitting machine and not like the knitting frame invented by  
Reverend Lee in 1589.

  The terms can be confusing — Lee's machine was called a  
knitting frame, a hand frame and a stocking loom among other things.

  There are peg frames from the late 18th century, purse moulds,  
that were used to make small purses.  Peg frame enthusiasts will  
sometimes cite the terms for the Lee frame as being proof of the use  
of peg frames, but it is not the same thing.

  Lee's machine was really quite complex.  It would knit an  
entire row at once (in a series of steps), whereas modern latch hook  
machines (both domestic and industrial) knit as the carriage goes  
across, essentially knitting one stitch after another.

  -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] preserving patterns — paper

[Carol Kocian]

What is your favorite method of preserving patterns to keep them  
intact? In the past, I have fused the tissue to muslin, but those  
were *very* simple children's play clothes, and eyeballing the  
cutting line for a smaller size was simple.



 I rarely use commercial patterns; usually I would draft them  
out of a book onto paper.


 My favorite paper source: If anyone is near a large printing  
plant, call and ask if they print on web presses, and if so wold they  
give you a butt roll?


 When a web press is running, they switch from one roll of paper  
to the next without stopping.  This means there is some paper left on  
the old roll.  For our use it's a huge amount, about half to an inch  
thick on a 4" core.  Printers recycle these rolls as waste, but if  
you ask nicely they will give you one.


 Don't get newsprint, because it degrades.  You want white  
uncoated or matte finish so you can write on it easily.  Of course,  
you can't be too fussy with free stuff, but also they could look out  
for the type of paper you need and save it for you.  It helps to  
bring cookies or brownies to the person who helps you.  :-)


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Stockings query

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Kate,

 Good thing you have 17th century in your signature — that's the  
period for your stockings, right?


 Ok so at the ankle, you're holding the stitches at the front  
and knitting the heel flap. Then you have to form the part that cups  
around the heel.


 Knit halfway across the heel flap.

 When you fold it in half, the "raw" edge (The part you just  
knitted) should be touching itself. The fold is vertical.


 That "raw" edge is then finished/attached to itself with a 3- 
needle bindoff. Kitchener had not been invented yet, but some people  
like to do that for a smoother join. Starting from the center (back  
of the heel) join the two edges, ending at the bottom/underneath the  
heel.


 You will end up with the heel flap shaped like a corner.   
That's a "common heel." There are ways of shaping a little bit so  
it's rounder instead of having that little point at the corner, but  
the point is perfectly correct for 17thC.


 So you have this heel pocket, and the edge is all the side of  
the knitting. You pick up stitches from that edge, and knit out  
sideways (along with the stitches from the top of the ankle) to make  
the foot.


 I was looking around on the web, I thought someone had stocking  
instructions with illustrations of one in progress.


 I hope this clarifies it! You may also want to try the Historic  
Knit list, or check out Ravelry.com for more resources.


 -Carol


On Nov 28, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:

In some sets of instructions for knitting period stockings, you are  
told to "fold the heel flap in half". I'm a fairly experienced  
knitter, but I can't make sense of this. Can anyone advise? I  
assume it means to fold the flap edge-to-edge rather than to double  
it back on itself.


Kate Bunting
Librarian & 17th century reenactor.


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Costume- and sewing-related Christmas gifts

[Carol Kocian]

On Dec 30, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Dianne wrote:


Oh yeah, and a flying monkey :).  I need to make him a little
vest..
Catherine>>

perk?

Flying monkey?

My SCA coat of arms is a winged monkey. Any clue where he came from?

Dianne



 This is funny — the Air & Space Museum has a monkey in a space  
suit, which I got for a friend as  "flying monkey." There are all  
manner of toy monkeys available, and all you need to do is add wings.  
The little vest and pillbox hat wouldn't hurt...  :-D


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Yellowed silk

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 4, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:

It can take a little while for the bleach to do its work. I suppose  
that is why you can use certain (weak) bleach products to alter the  
color of your hair and not end up bald ... but it's certainly not  
good for your hair.


Years ago, I remember a friend of mine telling me she didn't shave  
her legs, but instead "bleached" the hair there. She assumed the  
bleach simply made the hair color lighter so the hair didn't show,  
but I suspect the bleach treatment she bought actually thinned out  
the hair on her legs over time.



 The "bleach" to lighten hair is peroxide. If she was using a  
blonde hair dye, that would work. Too much peroxide can cause damage,  
but not as fast as fabric bleach.


 I've used fabric bleach as a quick & dirty poison ivy  
treatment. It dries out the rash really fast, and it's harsher on the  
skin than hair bleach.


 As with anything, try it on a swatch first. The yellowed  
tippets are weakened and will probably need to be replaced.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] "Mr Darcy" outfit

[Carol Kocian]

 Yes — assemble both the outer layer and the lining, but leave  
open both side seams.


 Put them right sides together and sew along the circumference:  
neck, center front, lower fronts. Armscyes. Bottom back edge. Do not  
sew the side seams.


 Turn it inside out and press.

 On the side seams, pin the outer fabric right sides together.  
Sew it, and also sew the linings 1 or 2 inches at the top and bottom.


 Hand stitch the lining closed at the side seams.

 -Carol


On Mar 7, 2009, at 3:49 PM, REBECCA BURCH wrote:

My oldest son has requested some assistance with an outfit he needs  
to wear to a Regency Ball at the end of the month. I got most of  
the jacket done before he had to return to Chicago, but he will  
have to deal the the waistcoat on his own.


I don't do much menswear, but I seem to recall there is a method of  
stitching the lining around the armholes and most of the outer edge  
and then turning it inside out so that all the edges are finished.  
Does anybody know somewhere he could get directions? (and me - you  
never know when it might come in handy!)

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] The fit of 17th century stockings?

[Carol Kocian]

On Apr 4, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Chris Laning wrote:
I'm working on a project that involves constructing some mid-17th- 
century stockings, and my own expertise (such as it is) is really  
only with earlier centuries.


So far, the results I seem to be getting suggest that either (1)  
these stockings are *supposed* to be loose around the ankle and  
instep rather than closely fitted, or (2) the instructions were  
written by someone who really didn't know what he was doing!


Both are possible, of course, but since I haven't studied 17th  
century fashions at all, I don't have information that would enable  
me to tell. Insights from people more familiar with this era would  
be very helpful -- backup evidence even more so ;)



 There are some wide elements to the clothing — big boot tops,  
for example. But illustrations of stockings and shoes show them as  
smooth fitting as most other eras. Is this an ideal, though? I've  
seen 18thC paintings that show baggy ankles, but it may depend on the  
style vs realism of the paintings.


 What I've seen in late 17th/early 18thC stockings is that they  
are a more boxy shape than mid- to late-18thC. I doubt foot shape  
would change that much over 50 years.


 Many early knit stockings are densely made and/or fulled so the  
fabric is not as stretchy as we are used to with modern knits. they  
don't stretch for the smooth fit that we expect in modern socks.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Peacock Wedding Dress

[Carol Kocian]

 I had some white peacock feathers at one time. I suspect they  
were bleached. The gold section was still metallic looking and  
another part was pinkish, with the rest being a cream color. They  
would have made quite an impressive dress, too.


 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1169646/Strut- 
aisle-1-5m-wedding-dress-2009-peacock-feathers.html

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Peacock Wedding Dress

[Carol Kocian]

 Now that I've looked at the albino peacocks, I definitely think  
my feathers were bleached. The albinos are pure white and the  
bleached feathers had a bit of color still on them.


 Also I saw a web page where they sold bleached peacock, as well  
as overdyed. The dyed are not bleached first, however the red ones  
are quite striking. I had some of those, too.


 I don't know if it's in Philadelphia any more, but I got mine  
at the S.A. Feather Company. It was also a great source for ostrich  
plumes of various colors and sizes. I used those more then anything  
for historic things. Sometimes they would have the end of a dye lot  
that were fairly cheap. They did custom dyeing, although of course  
they can be dyed at home, too.


 -Carol


On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:20 AM, otsisto wrote:


What gave you the impression they were bleached?

De

-Original Message-
  I had some white peacock feathers at one time. I suspect they
were bleached. The gold section was still metallic looking and
another part was pinkish, with the rest being a cream color. They
would have made quite an impressive dress, too.


 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1169646/Strut-
aisle-1-5m-wedding-dress-2009-peacock-feathers.html



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] 18th century Tricorn hats ....round heads...not!...maybe

[Carol Kocian]

 The purpose of the point over the left eye was so the musket  
barrel would not hit it.


 There are probably caricatures of hats being worn back on the  
head, but the fashion was straight.


 I remember hearing that 17thC hats were round rather than oval,  
and the distortion when worn caused the fashionable undulation of the  
brim. That doesn't happen when the brim is cocked up. Stretching the  
hat to oval will change the shape a bit, but not the the extent that  
it's visible with a free brim.


 Carol


On Apr 15, 2009, at 6:36 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:

I think they were designed to be worn straight. When I did 18th  
century re-enactment 30 years ago, we were told that soldiers' hats  
should be worn with the front point an inch above the left eyebrow.


Kate Bunting
Librarian & 17th century reenactor

--

Not especially my period, but were they worn straight on the head?  
If you
wear a hat tilted back so it sits where an alice band would be,  
rather than
around the crown of your head, then the crown of the hat can have a  
circular

rather than oval profile.

Claire

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] CC27 historical judge talks about workmanship and historical interpretation

[Carol Kocian]

On May 8, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote:

Of course, there are periods where a raw edge is more authentic  
than finished edges.


But if you'd documented the lack of seam finish, and if your other  
hand-sewing was good, the lack of seam finish would have looked  
deliberate, not like an oversight.



 One difficulty is that cloth was fulled much better in various  
historic periods than what's available now. There are some fulled  
fabrics available, but more expensive. Anyway, as pointed out  
earlier, sometimes raw edges are appropriate.


 So what happens when someone uses a non-period appropriate seam  
finish to accommodate a not-quite-period fabric? Frequently for  
18thC, reenactors will make shifts with French seams (an easy finish  
with machine sewing), but flat-fell is the way they were done at the  
time.


 Likewise with sergeing, would that be "better" than a raw edge?

 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] CC27 historical judge talks about workmanship and historical

[Carol Kocian]

On May 9, 2009, at 8:11 AM, debloughcostu...@aol.com wrote:
But period correct fabrics are more than available (easily), like  
fulled wools, (admittedly I do live near several of the best wool  
mills in Europe),


 Must be nice!   :-)

 It's all a matter of compromise — the correct fulled wools may  
be more expensive, or perhaps someone wants a particular color and  
can't find it in the right weight. I've thrown wool into the dyepot  
and then had it come out fuzzier than it started.



and  flat felled seams are just as easy as french on a sewing machine.


 However there is the idea that machine sewing should not be  
visible in pre-machine tie periods. Of course there is also the  
argument that good backstitching looks like machine sewing on the top  
side.  :-)  And then there is finding a linen thread smooth enough to  
run through a machine.


Overlocking may be necessary, but only if you're using the wrong  
finish or technique, and hand overcasting using something like  
whipstitch is just as easy,  if a little more time consuming (not  
much when you take into account the setting  up of the machine) -  
and I can't think offhand of a period when overcasting  wouldn't be  
correct - it was around during early medieval times and tudor  
times,  and it still was by victorian and mid 20th century.


 While overcasting can be found, it still depends on which  
garment and/or which fabric. 18th century shifts and shirts were flat- 
felled, for example.


 In reenactment, we have the luxury of concentrating on one time  
period and can learn the details. I'm a big fan of basic standards  
for groups. Within that, individuals learn and make their own  
compromises. There may be a conflict of technique vs. the overall  
look — the machine French seam with the non-offensive exterior  
appearance.


 Judges of competitions have a difficult job of determining  
which compromise is better than another, not to mention comparing  
work portraying different time periods!


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] CC27 historical judge talks about workmanship and historical

[Carol Kocian]

Judges of competitions have a difficult job of determining  
which compromise is better than another, not to mention comparing  
work portraying different time periods!



On May 9, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote:

Don't start thinking one period is "compared to" another period in  
Historical masquerades.  They aren't.  Entrants with simple  
costumes are often daunted by the big mid-Victorian or high  
Georgian stuff. But their presentations can be just as compelling  
as Anne Bolyn's was this year (I still get goosebumps).  And just  
as simple as the 1959 Dior.


 I didn't say the time periods were compared in that sense. I  
said the work. I suppose some of it is a documentation issue. Since  
we were talking about seam finishes, for example, information on that  
is not available for all time periods. For some periods there are  
extant garments and sewing manuals. For others, all we have are  
illustrations.


Given that there are more things to have to sew for an 1870s or  
1880s outfit, the simple Medieval entrant could point to raising  
the period breed of sheep, and to hand spinning, hand weaving, hand  
dying, hand embroidery, and hand stitched construction, none of  
which were common practice for rich city women in the Industrial  
Revolution.  And good fit was good fit, whenever it was.


 So you're saying that judging these very different skills  
against each other is not difficult?


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Temporary facial hair

[Carol Kocian]

 Don't they offer beards outside, like the stoning scene in Life  
of Brian?   :-D


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Bowing to the inevitable

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 4, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:


I really can't see reading Twitter, it sounds like my idea of Hell.


 You add each person you want to "follow" — so you can control  
the signal to noise ratio. I imagine it's handy for people who are  
away from their computers for most of the day since one can set it up  
to send the tweets as text messages to the phone. In which case they  
would have a data plan for the phone...


 Some people post maybe three interesting things in a week, and  
others let the world know each day that they woke up and had  
breakfast, showered, had lunch, etc... I don't follow those. It could  
also be useful to share experiences while on vacation or at a  
convention.


 I very much prefer the messages to come in through e-mail.  
There are so many forums now where you have to go to a different web  
page to check them. Some I check every day, others maybe once a month  
and next thing you know it's been a few months since I looked at it.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] early 17th century stays and bodice

[Carol Kocian]

 We are used to certain "rules" in dress, but sometimes ethnic  
(anything not English) will break those rules. The image you showed  
looks like a jacket. There were stays with detachable sleeves that  
are meant to be an outer garment, up to the middle of the 18thC. For  
17thC, there are boned jackets that appear to not need stays  
underneath. For stays and a wool jacket, it depends on the structure  
and fit of the jacket — does it need a few bones to be smooth? You  
may decide to do this after it's made.


 The pattern draft someone put on Flickr is lifted from _Corsets  
& Crinolines_ by Norah Waugh.


 I made one of those. The problem I had was, with the armscyes  
so low, the lacing gapped at the bustline due to the pressure of the  
armscyes. I made mine with cording, and with stiffer boning (or  
boning down the center front, at least) perhaps that would not happen.


 -Carol


On Aug 9, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:



Hi, I am going to do an early 17th century woman's middle class  
dress, location: Bohemia (today's Czech Republic, east of Germany  
if someone doesn't know), time: 1618-1648. I want it to look like  
this:


http://link.library.utoronto.ca/hollar/digobject.cfm? 
Idno=Hollar_k_1716&query=Hollar_k_1716&size=large&type=browse


I have some questions regarding the bodice and stays. First of all,  
I assume I should use stays (I prefer stays to boned bodices).  
Then, if I use stays, shall I do some light boning to the bodice as  
well? It'll be light wool lined with linen.


I don't really know how shall the stays look like. I have only  
found this: http://www.manchestergalleries.org/the-collections/ 
search-the-collection/image.php? 
EMUSESSID=bf812423145fbba6ba4d441b7ec2ec13&imageirn=400682&r=51445954  
from this era, but I'm not sure about the style...I thought I  
should do some traditional type of stays with lacing at the  
back...do you have any pictures of other surviving garments  
(corsets) from the 1st half of 17th century?


The bodice should be pointed, cut at the waist, probably with tabs,  
and with something like princess seams. I think I should keep to  
this pattern:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkoslov/1354051356/in/ 
set-72157601949667448/


For the stays and bodice, but again, it's a bit too late.

What do you think? Thanks,

Zuzana









___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Venetian Carnevale Gown

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 11, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Michael Hamilton wrote:

My wife and I are living in Italy for a few years, and have made a  
goal to go to Carnevale in Venice next February.


 What a wonderful opportunity!

I've been searching the web for examples and patterns to work from  
for her gown.  But, most of what turns up seems to be French  
fashion. Maybe it's true that the French fashion dominated Europe  
in the 18th century, esp. the late 18th century, which is the era  
I'm looking at. But, is there anything particularly "Italian" or  
even "Venetian" with respect dress?


 "Venetian" images tend to be of Carnavale, usually with masks  
and an over-the-top sort of look. They also look a bit fuller to my  
eye, but that may be the fancy dress / costume aspect of them.


In particular, so far most of what I've found is the "Robe a la  
Francese" or sack dress.  I really like the sleeves, with the lace  
trim, and the front, with the pointed stomacher and the layered  
skirts sweeping open in the front.  But, I really don't like the  
"sack" part in the back.  I've looked at patterns for a Robe a la  
Inglese, and Polonese, but, really don't like it as much in  
general.  In particular, I find the skirt isn't as nice.


 You said late century; how late? The popularity of these styles  
changed through the decades.


I am honestly not totally committed to historical accuracy, but,  
I'd like to not embarrass myself, either.


 In that case are you really concerned about a specific historic  
era? You could pick the style of gown you like and embellish it.  
Besides masks, they seemed to use fans and hats to conceal identity.


In particular, I'm a little dubious about having a separate  
stomacher, rather than something more one-piece.


 Stomachers are another aspect of fashion that were in use for  
some years but not the entire century. The benefit of a separate  
stomacher, however, is that the fit of the gown can be adjusted. Also  
you can make more than one and change the look of the ensemble.


I'd even stoop to a back zipper if I had to  (I hear your gasps of  
horror and ask for your patience, again).


 Why in the back? Gowns were front-fastening for the most part,  
so why not do that? Do you have to get in and out of the gown  
quickly? You already said you are making stays. Stays are adjustable  
so the gown needs some flexibility in the fit, too. Even if you used  
hooks & eyes instead of straight pins, you might find they need to be  
moved from year to year.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Fabric suggestions - Marie Antoinette 1786 portrait

[Carol Kocian]

 That's a chemise dress. It would have been linen or cotton.  
Yes,they made it that sheer back then.



On Aug 12, 2009, at 9:34 PM, Laurie Taylor wrote:


Hello,

My mad scramble to get myself ready for Costume College left me  
with a new

goal, but I'm very uncertain about fabric.

I want to make this gown:
http://www.ladyreading.net/marieantoinette/big/marie14a.jpg

I know that there are other copies of this image on the web, but  
this was

the first one I found just now.

What fabric would you use for this?  It is certainly semi-sheer,  
more so

than voile.  Silk chiffon would be too soft, silk organza possibly too
stiff?  I just can't decide.

Laurie T.
Phoenix

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Fabric suggestions - Marie Antoinette 1786 portrait

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 13, 2009, at 9:29 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

Yes, that is the infamous chemise gown and would have been made of  
lightweight linen or cotton--supposed Marie Antoinette adopted the  
style worn by the Creoles in the hot and steamy Caribbean. It is  
possible that, during the time, an even more sheer linen or cotton  
was used for the ruffles, although I had always thought the sleeve  
ruffle was a continuation of the sleeve made by drawing it up.  
There is a pattern for an extant English chemise dress in "Cut of  
Women's Clothes."


 There are extant items that do have an applied ruffle of finer  
fabric. For example, there are shifts with the sleeve gathered into a  
band and then a ruffle added to the band.


 In the images, the double ruffle at the neck would be applied.  
A really narrow cuff band would make it easier to control the way the  
sleeve ruffle falls. Just using a drawstring, the fullness might  
migrate toward the elbow, affecting the ruffle.


 Even though the look is styled after something simple, I can  
imagine that Marie Antionette's dressmakers would do a more precise  
job of it.


 The hemmed edges look like hemmed edges to me. Bias tape was  
not in use at the time, even binding an uneven edge they were using a  
flat woven tape.


 For suitable fabrics, I do remember seeing fine shirt-quality  
linen, but it's pretty expensive. It might be easier (and cheaper) to  
find a good shirt cotton. Unfortunately, when looking for sheers,  
handkerchief linen is sheer but coarse. Have you searched for cotton  
lawn? Some of the home decorating catalogs & stores carry sheer  
cotton curtains.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Color dye mixing

[Carol Kocian]

 Test it first. I once had some teal wool that I wanted to dye  
navy, and the dye did nothing. Then I treated it with a color  
remover, and got a school-bus yellow, which took the navy dye perfectly.


 Whatever that teal dye was, it saturated the fibers so nothing  
more could be added. A test would have meant just a little bit of dye  
and a lot less agitation of the wool, although it came through ok.


 -Carol


On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Alexandria Doyle wrote:

I have a length of wool that is a fushia color that I would like to  
take to burgundy.  any suggestions on the colors to add to the  
fushia to get burgundy?  I was thinking blue, but don't want to go  
purple...


alex


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Pattern Question - 18th C. Caraco - Butterick 3640

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Laurie,

I'm looking at making do with Butterick 3640, view A.  I do realize  
that this is one of the Big 4 companies' silly attempts at  
historical accuracy, and therefore, not period correct.  Some of it  
I can live with, and some I can fix.  I'm trying to decide what  
really needs fixing.


 Actually, some of the patterns are being made by better  
designers and more period correct. That one looks like it's meant to  
go over stays, which is a great start. Fabric and trimming choice is  
what will really make a difference in the look of the gown.


> If the Butterick were worn over period skirt supports, how far  
would it still be from anything that actually existed in period?   
Would the changes to make it more period be reasonable or not worth  
the effort?  I've been browsing through paintings of the period, but  
have not found anything that resembles the Butterick.


 Depends on the decade and the supports you are considering. The  
photos look good to me. There are two styles, the casual jacket and  
the gown that can be more formal. A long gown, plain, can also be  
middle or lower class.


Also, as pictured on the pattern envelope, is the high contrast of  
the yellow ground of the upper dress/caracao to the blue petticoat  
correct for period?  My fabric has a deep red ground and I'm trying  
to decide if the skirt/petticoat should be something in the same  
shade of red, maybe solid, or if I should go for a contrast.


 The blue looks a bit loud. A gown with a matching (same fabric)  
petticoat is more formal. Not matching (contrast or coordinating) is  
an undress look. The better fabric would be the upper garment — print  
vs. solid, for example.


 What year in the 18thC are you aiming for? That would help  
determine how you can use the pattern. You said late, and in the 90s  
fashion changed quite a bit, heading toward the Federal/Regency/ 
Directorie lines.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] How to do a regency-era neckline

[Carol Kocian]

 That was my thought, too — not a single twisted tube, but  
"faked" somehow. I thought it might be cut into a separate piece for  
each twist, but I suppose two strips could work as Sharon suggests.


 How about that front embellishment? Is that like a really tiny  
spaghetti strap, maybe with a cord inside or the seam allowance to  
puff it out?


 -Carol


On Oct 25, 2009, at 4:33 AM, Sharon Collier wrote:

I'm probably completely wrong on this, but I looked at the picture  
at 400%
zoom, and it looks like 2 pieces wrapped around each other. That  
way you
could have one finished edge (maybe by folding the fabric over the  
cord and
sewing, leaving the 2 raw edges one side) which was then sewn to  
the neck
edge. Having 2 strips of piped edging means you could "fudge" the  
rolling

and make it look like it spiraled, when in fact it didn't.
But like I said, I'm probably wrong.

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Aylwen Garden
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 12:30 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] How to do a regency-era neckline

I'm trying to reproduce the neckline at
http://www.sensibility.com/vintageimages/1800s/images/ 
1820sdress.jpg . The
trim has piping on each side before it is rolled and tacked onto  
the dress.
Can anyone show/tell me how this is done, so that it doesn't show  
any raw

edges?
Bye for now,

Aylwen


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Harmful Fabrics

[Carol Kocian]

 As if the dyes and finishes were not enough...

 I heard about something called "silk rot", which will consume &  
destroy silk faster than time in general.  I broke out after handling  
some 1880s/90s items, ad that was suggested as a cause.  In that case  
the item should be removed from the collection.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] a question about museums

[Carol Kocian]

 It depends on whether the museum has photos or slides available  
of objects.  Besides postcards and prints, some museums have  
professionally made slides of various objects.  f they have them,  
they will sell them!  :-)


 It's a question for the specific museum.

 If you wanted someone to take photos just for you, that may be  
a bit more difficult to arrange.


 -Carol


On Nov 26, 2006, at 5:00 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi,
I went to se the Marie Antoinette movie last week, and my eyes fell  
on a gentlemans suit. It was copyed from Revolution in Fashion from  
Kyoto.
After the movie all i could think about was i want to embroider  
that suit two, i tryed to photograph from the book and make a  
pattern repeat of the embroidery, and i can, but its impossible to  
se how big the embroidery is.
Do you think the museum would let me buy a photo of the embroidery  
and also meassures of the embroidery, (how wide it is)?
Next i think about, maybe the museum dont have any pictures at all,  
maybe it was the makers of the books who owns the pictures?
I was very surprised recently when i asked a museum in Gotland,  
Sweden about a pair of stays in their collection, i noticed it in a  
new swedish book. When i contakted the museum, they didnt have any  
pictures of it.

Japan is way out of my budget to travel to just for that.

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] 1450 - pregnant?

[Carol Kocian]

On Dec 25, 2006, at 12:54 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:


On Mon, 25 Dec 2006, Robin Netherton wrote:

This is the one I like -- look at Elizabeth's left side, and  
you'll see the side seam has been opened and laced with a gap. You  
can see the dark underdress beneath.


http://www.wga.hu/index1.html


Whoops, sorry, the site is framed. This gets you to the image:

http://www.wga.hu/cgi-bin/highlight.cgi?file=html/w/weyden/rogier/ 
17other/3visitat.html&find=visitation


--Robin



 Ok, that is very obvious.  I see again that there are more  
eyelets than are being used by the lace.  What's going on there -  
some kind of lace shortage?  It's not a "get dressed fast" scene, and  
also wouldn't that side lace be for adjustment rather than getting  
into the dress?


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon and projects

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Robin Netherton wrote:

I'd say let's all figure out a way to meet up while we're there,  
but I

expect we'll all be meeting in Robin's classes, anyway!


Y'know, the obvious thing would be for the h-cost people to meet  
either

before my official class time, or during the lunch break.


 At some Costume Society of America meetings, H-costume people  
would identify themselves by a red "H" on their name tag.  The same  
could be done with a convention badge.  I carried a red sharpie  
around with me at one meeting, so if I recognized someone she could  
mark her badge right there.  :-)


 So if people can't make it to a meet-up, they can still  
recognize each other any time.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] knitted garters (when) are they period?

[Carol Kocian]

On Apr 13, 2007, at 12:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
(we're told that the garter stitch is called that because it was  
used for garters--can anybody verify this?)


 I heard that too, however garter stitch can be found as the  
treatment for hand-knit stocking tops.  I've heard the tops called  
welts and also garters, so I wonder if that's how garter stitch gets  
its name?


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Metrosexual???? OT

[Carol Kocian]

 Right, as others have said, it's not about sexual activity,  
it's about grooming.  My personal line of definition — hair  
gel.  :-)  It can be as simple as that, and also guys who get  
manicures, facials and have their eyebrows pruned & shaped.


 -Carol


On May 5, 2007, at 2:48 PM, Saragrace Knauf wrote:

Okay, this may be a little off topic, but since I heard it on the  
Tudor Fashion special (TFS) on showtime, maybe it isn't too bad.  I  
heard the word Metrosexual (MS) for the first time in my life  
earlier this week in reference to what I can't remember, then I  
heard it yesterday for the second time on the TFS, and just now on  
NPR on "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me."  NPR's discussion implies that it  
is another word for homosexual, the TFS refered to Henry VIII as a  
MSwhat the heck is everyone talking about???  Someone who  
copulates with everything they can get their hands on??


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity patterns

[Carol Kocian]

 Actually that looks like the stays rather than a stomacher.   
The shape and length looks fine.  Generally the stomacher is where  
you would have some contrast — a focal point.  They have that with  
the bows, but the stomacher could be a different color, too.


 With the underpinnings (3635), it looks like the shift sleeves  
are drawstring, which is not correct.  Shift sleeves were gathered  
into cuffs.  Likewise the neckline should not be gathered, either.


 The V at the bottom back of the stays is consistent on the  
model and the line drawing, so it looks like it's part of the  
pattern.  And it's not right, either.


 With a few adjustments, though, it could produce something decent.

 -Carol


On Jul 22, 2007, at 9:19 PM, Elizabeth Walpole wrote:

20 1/2 yds for the Robe A l'francaise http://www.simplicity.com/ 
designNavigator.cfm?design=3637, sounds like Simplicity has gone  
overboard as per usual on buying extra yardage for trim rather than  
piecing scraps. Also I'm not sure about the shape and length of  
that point, 18th century experts can correct me but in the line  
drawing it doesn't look right and rather reminds me of a comment I  
heard about the Shakespeare in Love pattern describing the look as  
'bodice with a p*nis' because there is just this narrow point  
sticking down at the front rather than a more straight line heading  
downwards to make a V shape. The wig really can't be helped, it's  
what you can buy easily from costume shops and I doubt Simplicity  
would have bothered with a good one for a photo shoot (and nothing  
above the neck is included in the pattern anyway). Although with a  
saque gown you can get away with claiming it's pre 1770s and the  
big hair trend hasn't really gotten underway yet.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Re: bra centenary

[Carol Kocian]

 It works if you go to:

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/

and click the link from there.

 I changed the subject line because it was offensive.  The  
"history" is brief, captions on each of 12 photos.  It's done in a  
factual way and not as a "men's entertainment" piece.  It's not  
porn.  I would bet many of us have better bra histories on our  
bookshelves already.


 -Carol


On Aug 26, 2007, at 10:25 AM, zelda crusher wrote:


Cut and pasted the thing twice, came back "bad request".

Laurie (not a bloke but interested in bras nonetheless)




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Historical Costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Historical Costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [h-cost] Feminists be damned,one for the blokes to look  
at (bra centenary)

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 13:23:06 +1000

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/slideshow.aspx?
sectionid=5315§ionname=slideshow&subsectionid=75014&subsectionnam 
e=brahisto

ry&photo=1



This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



_
Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN  
Travel. http://travel.msn.com/Articles/ 
aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Speaking of fleece...

[Carol Kocian]

 This is an odd thing, but hopefully useful to someone.  There  
is free fleece available in Northern Virginia (DC area).  I think it  
may be angora goat.  Someone raises them and has been shearing and  
collecting the fleeces, but not doing anything with them.  This is  
info I'm getting from my (non-fiber-oriented) boss, so it's slightly  
vague.


 If anyone is in the area and wants to go check it out and see  
if the fleece is useable, send me a private note.


 Also it's ok to forward this to any people or lists that might  
have DC/Virginia area people interested in the fiber.


 Thanks!
     -Carol Kocian
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 1, 2010, at 3:59 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:


On 1/1/2010 12:39 PM, Marjorie Wilser wrote:


Then there's the Pantone system for printing. Trouble is, they change
the colors according to popularity, and the swatch books are  
expensive.


Pantone doesn't change the colors as far as I know, or at least not  
unless it's over a long time frame. The colors are only numbered,  
no names. Pantone is not a guide to historical color names, or any  
other kind of color names.  The whole point is that you and the  
printer each have a Pantone book or fan. You say you want color #X  
on the cover, and that's what you get. You don't have to specify  
the edition of the Pantone book or fan.


 Thanks, Fran, for this interesting resource!

 Fran is correct regarding Pantone, however the books are  
expensive and recommended to be replaced every year. It was developed  
specifically for the printing industry — there are some basic ink  
colors that are mixed in various combinations to get the colors in  
the book. There have been colors added, and particularly when a  
company uses a new color and wants it consistent for their corporate  
identity. Because, of course, they can't use one of the colors that  
Pantone already has in the book.  :-)


 The RGB colors listed on the page are helpful, but will depend  
on the calibration of the computer screen. I noticed the grays had a  
reddish hue on my monitor, so I adjusted it and the shades of purple  
make more sense now.


 Besides the historic color names, how is this useful to h- 
costume? Say someone has a fabric for sale, and even with an image  
online I'm not sure if it will match/coordinate with something I  
have, or certain shades of puce make me look ill. An understood color  
system means they can give me a number and I can see the exact shade.


 The downside of a printing ink system is that fabric dyes are  
different. One example of this is Spoonflower — spoonflower.com, they  
print custom fabric from your designs. A friend has seen color shifts  
between what she wanted and what she got, so it is very much worth  
getting a fabric sample before ordering yardage!


 Printers can be calibrated too. If I'm looking at those  
swatches and decide to print it out, it may different than when you  
print it. Not to mention my monitor is showing me colors of light,  
and paper or fabric shows me colors of inks or dyes, the additive vs  
subtractive color. Two colors can look different on my monitor and  
then print out looking the same.


 As far as the accuracy of the colors, who knows what they were  
looking at for the earlier historic shades. Garment colors can fade.  
How exact of a shade do you need? Just look at how many shades of  
teal they have:

http://www.anthus.com/Colors/Colors_T.html
or terra cotta.

 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 1, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:

Fran is correct regarding Pantone, however the books are expensive  
and recommended to be replaced every year. It was developed  
specifically for the printing industry — there are some basic ink  
colors that are mixed in various combinations to get the colors in  
the book. There have been colors added, and particularly when a  
company uses a new color and wants it consistent for their  
corporate identity. Because, of course, they can't use one of the  
colors that Pantone already has in the book.  :-)


Your comments are erroneous in some respects, but as this is not a  
list on color printing and the Pantone system, I suggest that  
anyone who wants information on offset printing and color proofs  
for it consult sources on book production.


 You're welcome to PM me on that. I've worked in magazine,  
advertising and book production (on the print end) for many years.




Besides the historic color names, how is this useful to h-costume?


Is there something wrong with suggesting a link to an interesting  
source for color information? And letting h-costume members--if  
they wish--take a few minutes to see if it is useful to them in any  
way?  If you think the site linked to is erroneous or incomplete,  
or you want material added to it, I suggest that you contact the  
website owners. I am not responsible for the content of their site.  
If you want a website specifically oriented toward colors for  
fabric printing, or historic costume, I'd advise you to search the  
web for it and post a link.  I'm sure we'll all be glad to see it.


 I was hoping to continue some discussion on it, because I'm  
interested in color. I offered a couple of examples and hoped others  
would do so, too. It was meant to be a stimulating question, not a  
suggestion that something was wrong there.


 And also I did send a note to the site owner. Upon a closer  
examination I noticed a few colors had a pink cast to them,  
particularly the "white" and some light greens, which ought not to be  
pink at all. I checked a few color configurations, so I know it's not  
my monitor.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 1, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:


For one thing, it's Pantone who recommends that the swatches be  
replaced every year. I'm only on my third Pantone fan, and I've  
been working with them for 15 years. When I've replaced them I've  
compared the old and new swatches. They don't fade to speak of  
unless you leave the swatches open on your desk when you are not  
using them, and obviously, the solution is keep them in a closed  
drawer. It may not matter to you if your employer is paying for  
them. And as far as production costs go, using a fan for several  
years instead of one doesn't save much money. Still, it can be done.


 It's a matter of professional tools vs the need for them, and  
how precise does a costumer want to be with color. Design studios and  
printers may well replace their pantone books every year. These days  
many projects do colors with a CMYK build (instead of custom mixed  
ink), and the CMYK can vary on press. When dealing with corporate  
identity colors, it's an expensive mistake to have to reprint. Other  
projects won't be as persnickety, so a slight color shift due to  
aging or fading in the swatchbook won't have an impact.



Do you know what the fabric printing and dyeing industry uses for  
swatch books? Do they use Pantone or something else?


 I don't know about professional fabric printing. The on-demand  
printing (such as Spoonflower) seem to be working it out with the  
efforts of users. This blog
http://blog.mammamadedesigns.com/archive/2008/08/13/spoonflower- 
fabric-development-series-5-color-calibration-part-c.aspx
has a color chart, shown as RGB (at the bottom of the page) and as  
printed fabric (at the top). Even taking into consideration the  
differences in photos, you can see some colors are different.


Here is a more direct example of some color shifts:
http://blog.mammamadedesigns.com/archive/2008/07/18/spoonflower- 
fabric-development-series-5-color-calibration-part-b.aspx

See how the green stems turned out the same color as the green field.

 This is the chart from Spoonflower:
http://blog.spoonflower.com/files/spoonflower_color_chart.tif
Where they removed a chunk of colors that tend to shift. And while  
they removed reds, I was seeing changes in blues and greens in the  
Mamamade example.


 The Mamamade blog goes through a lot of color information.

 Something I can imagine happening — say we have a vintage  
garment that's a print fabric that we want to repro. So we scan the  
fabric and then correct for any fading or yellowing. That's not  
enough, the colors also need to be redone to allow for the shift.  
Also subtle differences in color may not come out, such as in the  
calibration example. What if the fabric I want is a multitone madder  
print — some tones will come out the same.


 The PMS book or other color match system is not going to help  
here. The costumer needs to get color swatches of fabric printed on  
the actual intended fabric, on the machine that will be used. Luckily  
it's available.


 Also once calibrated, a user could also calibrate her monitor  
to more closely match what she will get from Spoonflower. It can be  
set up as a profile so I could toggle between that and a traditional  
color profile, to change back & forth depending on the project.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:05 PM, Kimiko Small wrote:


Then may I suggest we drop this topic asap? Please?
 Kimiko


 I'm still interested in hearing other experiences with using  
color systems regarding historic costuming.


 One other benefit for those who work with printers — if it's a  
web printer (printing from a large roll of paper rather than sheet- 
fed) you can ask for a butt roll. That's the end of the roll, still  
with a good amount of paper on it. When they change rolls, they do  
not let the old one run out, as it takes time to re-thread the press.


 Anyway, there's plenty of paper left over on a butt roll and  
it's great for making or altering patterns.





But hey, I'm not in the mood to play one-upmanship games.



Fran


 Sounds like a fine resolution for the new year. You're the one  
who said my comments were erroneous and that people should go  
elsewhere for information. Maybe it's Mercury Retrograde having a go  
at us, because I thought it was possible to have a discussion on the  
topic.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Marjorie Wilser wrote:

You are right, Chris, that the link is helpful; what I was  
originally trying to point out in my  response was that if only  
there were a precise color guide, we could describe colors and be  
understood perfectly by our correspondents (others misunderstood my  
intent). My comment didn't have much to do with historical color  
understanding, however, just with communication :)


== Marjorie Wilser (who still likes the Crayola system!)


 The link Allison just posted
http://www.firemountaingems.com/details.asp?PN=H203271TL
has a Pantone guide for $20.

 As far as colors changing, I see a color forecast:
http://www.firemountaingems.com/trends/fashion_trends.asp? 
docid=PANTONEFORECAST
which probably matches their color book, however the numbers are not  
the same as Pantone for print. If I was talking about PMS 199, is it  
close to 18-1550?


 Maybe if we go to the paint store and get a collection of the  
colors, but then we have to be sure we're comparing Behr to Behr and  
not Behr to Sherwin-Williams.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chalking a line

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Alexandria Doyle wrote:

I can help but think that running the basting line will take nearly  
as long to do as doing the couching.  I know it won't, I just  
finished the pearling on the collar and I had the pattern drawn out  
of muslin, and basted to the black velvet so I could "feel" where  
the pearls were to go...


alex



 Thread tracing does take time, but sometimes it's worth it. I  
once had tiny pleats to make on a very woodgy fabric (grain shifted  
easily). The thread tracing took longer than it did to actually  
stitch the pleats, but was the best way to get everything in the  
right place.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] mangle RE: An amusing error?

[Carol Kocian]

 With either use of the word, though, it seems that the book was  
not quite right in the order of operations. It's definitely out of  
order for a wringer. I'm not sure what they mean by blued and  
starched "by hand." Blueing is added to the water, and even using  
spray starch these days seems like a hand process to me.


 Finally, with a pressing mangle, why would you iron first and  
then use a mangle? I could see, with some items, mangling and then  
touching up some portions with an iron afterward.


 It was interesting, though, to learn that "mangle" has two  
meanings.


 -Carol


On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:

My mother had a machine that she called a mangle. There was a  
bottom piece on which you placed damp clothing or sheets (after the  
wringer), and a top piece which heated up (electrically, I think).  
You could fold shirts and place them on the bottom surface, or you  
could have it roll sheets or other flat things through. You brought  
the top down - it was essentially a large iron. Huge amounts of steam.

Patty

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Collier

Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:57 AM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error?

Right, it's not an ironing device, but something to wring out  
clothes. You'd have thought the author would have done his homework!


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Charlene Charette
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:37 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error?

"Mangle" is the British term for what Americans call a "wringer".

--Charlene


On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Sharon Collier  


wrote:
I am reading a book, "What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens  
Knew" and in the part about laundry, the author says, "This made  
laundry day such a chore that many better-off households hired a  
washerwoman to do it, since immense amounts of water had to be  
boiled, the clothes blued and starched by hand, ironed, and then  
put through a mangle, a tablelike contraption with two rollers  
through which you rolled the clothing until it was pressed."  I  
would hate to have him doing my laundry!

___


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?

[Carol Kocian]

 I've heard of post-mortem photos that are taken of the person  
in a coffin. Are there other examples of them with a dead person  
posed sitting up?


 There is something on the side of her head which could be a  
barrette or could be a head prop or rest of some sort. It does not  
look like it would be sturdy enough if she was dead.


 I agree that her eyes do look focused. There could be other  
reasons why it does not follow the conventions most wedding photos of  
the time, for example a disability preventing hand positions, an  
arranged marriage or cultural reasons why they would not be touching.


 -Carol


On Feb 6, 2010, at 4:45 AM, Sharon Collier wrote:

If you look at the dress, the ribbon that the seller says is  
"holding her up" is clearly a ribbon at the waist. If it was  
holding her up it would have to go under the veil, but it doesn't  
look as if it is doing that. This looks like any other photo of  
this period, in which the sitters had to sit still for a long time  
while the exposure was being made. Who would want a picture of a  
dead woman bride and what reputable photographer (as this seems to  
be) would agree to do that? The flowers might be in her lap because  
she couldn't hold them still and they would have blurred otherwise.  
And to me, the woman appears to be focused on something, probably  
not the same thing the man was focused on, but who cares? I don't  
think dead people's eyelids are up like that, either.


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Penny Ladnier
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:30 AM
To: h-costume
Subject: [h-cost] Is this real or not?

I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem  
bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not?  Read the  
description the seller has of the bride.  The item number is  
380202466338.


Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The  
Costume

Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com
14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Penny,

 It's still a little tricky — I see jpg artifacts — it's  
different than if you had the photo and did a hi-res scan yourself.  
The white pixels around the flower stems could be from sharpening the  
image file. I see the same effect between the man's sleeve and the  
background, both above and the inner elbow space.


 One odd thing is a paler spot on her right eye/eyelid, maybe a  
damaged spot on the photo? It's a little off to be a highlight, or is  
that another indication of less-than-perfect retouching of the eyes?


 And I was also wondering about that white bar on her left  
temple. I would expect for a hairpin or barrette to have one on each  
side. There are so many white marks on the gent's suit that don't  
look like they belong there, so without the original photo (or a good  
hi-res scan), who knows what is there and what is damage.


 -Carol


On Feb 6, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote:

Linda Walton sent me the image URL and I have zoomed in on the  
photo.  The buckle on the belt slightly to her left side.  The  
belt's bottom rests and about an inch above the bodice's bottom.   
This seems a bit odd location to me.   Has anyone seen this fashion  
trend?


The flowers are carnations.  The stems' bottom is tucked behind a  
fold in the dress.  They are probably pinned to the belt. On the  
other hand, I do believe the photographer added the flowers later.   
There are no shadows on the dress from the flowers.  For a matter  
of fact, there is a line of lighter gray/ almost white pixels  
around the edge of the flowers.  There are some unusual pixels that  
don't seem to belong.  I am very experienced to working with photos  
at this high of magnification.


Her pupils do seem to be painted.  There is no definition/variation  
in the pixels' color/shades like with normal photos.  Her right eye  
is also closer to the bridge of the nose than the left.  Judging by  
the shadows around her eyes, they are normally open.


The shadow that I saw under her left ear is the chair.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] OMG! The sale price

[Carol Kocian]

On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:

No, with our sewing skills, we could make new "old" photos, and  
pose them any way we liked! I have a friend who knows how to do the  
old colloidal (sp?) type of photography..

(grin) Sharon


 How about the med student who can supply the bodies?  :-)

Is anyone interested in a bunch of old photos? My mom mentioned  
last night (it was her b-day and we were looking over old photos)  
that she had a bunch where she doesn't know the people in them, so  
she's going to toss them. Mostly from the late 1800's through 1950's.



 I hope you find a home for the photos. I'm sure a lot of the  
"instant ancestor" photos are from a similar situation. All the more  
reason to identify those that we can.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] What is this woman making?

[Carol Kocian]

On Feb 14, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Charlene Charette wrote:

This is an excerpt from P. Hilleström's "A Conversation at  
Drottningholm," 1779 (I wasn't able to find a detailed picture  
online, so I scanned this from a book):


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ol-58sQg9RMLMYpBYDFiBg? 
feat=directlink


What is the second woman from the right making (using the upright  
rods)? I'm assuming some sort of passementarie?


--Charlene



 Interesting, I've seen hat same set-up for wig making. The hair  
would be attached to the strings, with threads on one rod and the  
other taking up the work.


 The woman in the painting is adding a strand of something, so  
obviously not weaving hair but a similar technique.


 I'm more curious about the woman who appears to be knitting  
something lace on two needles. She has them in that "50s housewife"  
position with the ends up.


 Overall I find it a rather amusing image with those supported  
lace collars and keeping their hands busy with work.


 Have you posted the question on the 18cWoman list? People there  
have done more in-depth research of the period and may be able to  
show more sources for the use of that loom.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] What is this woman making?

[Carol Kocian]

 The same activity, as in needlework? They each seem to have a  
different project. The one on the right is sewing / mending with  
black thread on green fabric. No embroidery hoop. The one second from  
the left, knitting? And the far left lady has an pointy thing but we  
can't see what she is doing with it.


 -Carol


On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:19 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

All four all seem to be engaged in the same activity and one has a  
frame. The product reminds me of some of the present fancy chenilles.


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ol-58sQg9RMLMYpBYDFiBg? 
feat=directlink


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] What are these ladies doing? (because we're no longer talking about just the lady in the middle...

[Carol Kocian]

 Regarding the "knitting" lady, Colleen Humphries from the  
18cWoman list says,


The woman at the back left has two lace bobbins and an out-of- 
proportion bobbin lace pillow, and is holding the bobbins upside  
down.  She *clearly* doesn't know how to make lace, it's something  
of a craft fantasy, at least for that woman, making me wonder about  
the rest.






On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, cheryl...@aol.com wrote:

Actually the second lady is using a position more like one would  
use for crochet and her other hand doesn't seem to have a needle as  
much as it seems to be holding taught thread.  Her work resembles  
crocheted lace more than knitting.  Had to get my 2Cent worth.   
It's amazing how much comment this thread has engendered.


Cheryl Odom
Santa Fe, New Mexico

"Carol Kocian wrote:

 I'm more curious about the woman who appears to be knitting
something lace on two needles. She has them in that "50s housewife"
position with the ends up.


I don't know about '50s housewives - I was taught to knit in 1950s  
England with
the needle ends down - but I have seen a Norwegian lady knitting in  
that
position. As these ladies are presumably Swedish, I guess it's a  
Scandinavian

technique.

Kate Bunting
Librarian & 17th century reenactor
"


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Look at this photo YIPPEE!!!

[Carol Kocian]

 Congratulations! Were you able to find out about hand-tinting  
of stereoviews? Would it have developed at a different time than hand- 
tinting single photos?


 -Carol


On Apr 6, 2010, at 3:35 AM, Penny Ladnier wrote:

I am now the VERY proud owner of the photo.  I finally decided to  
buy it today.  This is my first photo like this.   The dealer and I  
have been chatting back and forth.  He is very knowledgeable about  
photography history.


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Victorian Hair:

[Carol Kocian]

 There are salons that specialize in long hair, conditioning  
rather than cutting. While they may also have modern sensibilities  
regarding styles, they do know how to handle long lengths. The idea  
of bringing a picture or two is a good one.


 The George Michael Salon in New York has affiliates and also  
trains people who might work in a salon or independently in other  
cities.


 Also check discussion forums for long hair enthusiasts. They  
should be able to recommend someone in your area.


 -Carol


On Apr 28, 2010, at 7:32 AM, Anne wrote:

I would be really interested to hear the result, if you choose this  
approach, because, to be honest, I never had much luck.  My hair is  
just to my waist, and I have found that hairdressers are more  
practised in putting up hair that is to shoulder-blades or  
shorter.  They don't seem to know where to "store" all the length,  
and weight, before doing fancy stuff with the last 8 inches.


Jean

Penny Ladnier wrote:
This is a thought...take an image of what you want and take it to  
a hairdresser that does bridal styles.  Ask them if they can  
recreate the style.  There are hairdressers that specialize in  
bridal up-dos.


Penny Ladnier (who grew my hair long in the early 1980s to look  
like Laura's hair on General Hospital)


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] late 18th century velvet accessories?

[Carol Kocian]

On May 6, 2010, at 7:43 PM, landofoz wrote:

Has anybody got any suggestions on an 18th century accessory that  
would use only one metre of velvet (something to keep warm would  
be good as July is the middle of winter for those of us in the  
southern hemisphere)


Denise B wrote,
Would a rectangle shawl be appropriate?  Cut the piece in half and  
sew the narrow ends together. Trim with lace or fringe or ??



 A shawl would depend on which part of the 18th century. The end  
of the century (90s) saw them creeping in, but not most of the century.


 What part of the century are you aiming for?

 What about a muff?

 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Subject lines, was Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 144

[Carol Kocian]

 A request — please update subject lines when you change the  
subject! With such a varied range of interests, it helps people to  
know which posts they want to read and which ones to skip.


 The fabric on your site is lovely and I'd hate to have people  
miss it.


 Thank you!
 -Carol


On May 12, 2010, at 6:02 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:


Hi Donna,

Usually the process of making a brocade takes 4 weeks from placing  
an order to receiving the item (assuming it were for a Czech  
customer...otherwise you have to add shipping time to your country).


In this case, it will take perhaps longer as my sister who is in  
charge of this is currently in Spain and will be back to work in June.


I suggest you take a look at our webpage through some translator  
(like http://translate.google.com/translate? 
js=y&prev=_t&hl=cs&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=www.sartor.cz&sl=auto&tl 
=en )
We do have an English version of the webpage, but many information  
is still not translated. We'll have this fixed together with a new  
online shop in July/August).


Zuzana

___
Sartor...custom-made costumes
www.sartor.cz



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Question of fair use

[Carol Kocian]

On May 12, 2010, at 6:42 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:

Tell me one thing. How would be the situation if I asked the museum  
for close up photos of the fabric? I would do the design with help  
of these pictures. The result would be the same. Maybe I will do  
it, I will ask the museum for close up pictures for me to see the  
original.
How on earth can you say which material I used in the end to  
produce the design given to a commercial weaver?
Is there any copyright law regarding reproductions of extant  
garments/textiles?

___
Sartor...custom-made costumes
www.sartor.cz



 It's not copyright, but there are rights of ownership. If you  
are looking to copy that exact textile, then you should be in touch  
with the museum that owns it. If you are designing something inspired  
by it and other textiles, that's a different matter.


 Those writing books will buy originals or study in a museum,  
with specific permission of how they may use their photographs of  
museum objects.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use

[Carol Kocian]

There are two different issues here. One is copyright, regarding  
making a copy of part of a book. There are other ways to get the  
information, for example Inter Library Loan or looking at a friend's  
copy. Or asking the friend if the book contains a particular thing.  
If one is interested in buying the book, you can read reviews. For  
some books, Amazon and other online sellers offer the table of  
contents and a representative page or three for view.


 After the discussions of copyright on various forums, I'm  
surprised when I see people offer, on a public forum, to scan and  
send parts of books. Likewise, when someone asks to borrow a book and  
then says it's because they want to copy it, I'm dismayed and do not  
loan it. It's not the lack of awareness about copyright (since  
everyone seems to be aware of it), it's the casual attitude about  
violating copyright.



 The other issue is the rights of ownership of an object. A  
photographer owns the copyright of their photographs, but may agree  
to a limited use as a condition of access. If a museum allows you to  
examine and make a pattern of a garment, and you sell it as "that red  
dress in the XYZ museum" without their permission, you could get in  
trouble and also limit future access for yourself and other researchers.



 I have seen cases of people researching and reproducing  
original objects. Take the Eleanora of Toledo stockings, for example.  
People have come up with patterns, usually adapted for their own  
size. If they decided to sell the pattern on a large scale, or  
decided to manufacture and sell the repro stockings, they may need  
special permission to do so.



 Some projects are best consulted privately, which people have  
done on this list. Now that we know people are interested in the  
pourpoint brocade, anyone on the list could grab the project and run  
with it. Someone might decide to do a print of the fabric on  
Spoonflower. Which is a third issue — if you have an idea for a  
commercial product, why discuss it on H-costume? We can ask if others  
have done a particular type of project, but why give away the details?


 -Carol


On May 13, 2010, at 8:42 AM, Beteena Paradise wrote:

I think in order to make your question more closely resemble the  
current issue, you need to add the words "700 years after your death."



From: "annbw...@aol.com" 

Okay, let's try this one more time.  Suppose someone bought a yard  
of  your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that  
admittedly probably doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting  
producing their own brocade, in exactly the same pattern, and  
selling it.  Would you regard that as  "fair use"?


Ann Wass


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities

[Carol Kocian]

On May 13, 2010, at 3:08 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering  
about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing  
fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or  
Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? Historical  
houses seem to go the reproduction method...when they can afford  
it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric  
is used for costume purposes?


 A licensing agreement between Colonial Williamsburg and  
Waverly. Or the historic site might hire the fabric company to make  
the reproduction.


 I don't think there is a difference if the fabric is used for  
costume purposes. Once I buy my yardage, they don't care if I use it  
for curtains, a gown, or a slipcover for my unicorn.


 The difference is that there are more home-decor enthusiasts  
than costumers out there. When looking for a market for  
reproductions, they go for the bigger group. Costumers will enjoy a  
source of period jewelry, but the museum will select the pieces that  
will also appeal to the general public.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] book sharing, was: copyright law thing...

[Carol Kocian]

On May 13, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:


I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends.


 Whenever I see something about an e-mail list being a group of  
friends, I imagine sending a party invitation to the entire list...  
No, not quite.  :-)  I see many groups with common interests, some  
members of which are friends, and some are not.


Someone says,"I have a book with an interesting picture." Someone  
else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture.


 Would you loan the book to your local friend? Would you drop it  
in the mail to someone you've never met, with the understanding they  
would mail it back when finished with it?


If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my  
house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands  
of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend  
to look at.


 Or you could get on Skype and hold it up to your web cam for  
your long-distance friend to see. That way someone can look without  
making a copy for them.


 -Carol

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] A tailoring question

[Carol Kocian]

On May 19, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Pixel, Goddess and Queen wrote:

This is the sort of embroidery I am talking about--a circle but not  
the entire keyhole: http://img193.imageshack.us/i/dsc6499k.jpg/  
This is the Consort's outfit, which you will notice lies nice and  
flat when you arrange it to photograph it (or to attach the  
finished embroidery). I use the template for the keyhole neckline  
placket for the proper sizing.


But apparently I have to be special. My shoulders slope pretty  
dramatically--I have lovely Victorian champagne-bottle shoulders-- 
which means that to fit smoothly my gowns get a little more  
tailoring. Specifically, I sew the two body panels together  
straight, do the neckline with a keyhole facing and then re-cut the  
panels (starting from the seam on the neck facing) down at an angle  
out to the point of the shoulder. The result is that it drops the  
point of the shoulder down about 1 1/2", but then when it comes  
time to attach the  embroidery to the gown there is more embroidery  
than there is gown and it won't lie flat.




 Your embroidery will not be a complete circle. Using a gown  
that fits you, adjust the pattern to reflect your shoulder  
adjustment. Trace the pattern twice onto another piece of paper (just  
the top part). Tape together the shoulder sections and the center  
back. You should see a gap in the center front.


 Measure from the neck out for the width of your embroidery.  
That's your pattern.


 The next challenge is to get the motifs evenly as you have done  
in the photo. You'll have to divide your arc into sections, maybe use  
a protractor to do that.


 Once you have your pattern, you can cut the shoulders right  
every time and not have to re-sew the shoulders.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Preparing an exhibition of historical garments

[Carol Kocian]

 Look for "My Double." There's at least one on Ebay, bid is over  
$100.


 It's thicker and harder to bend than chicken wire. The My  
Double is meant to be formed around one's body and then stays firm  
enough to be able to drape on it.


 I learned to make forms in a museum with ethafoam — we used the  
2" thick pieces, cut them into circles, ovals or whatever shape best  
worked for the torso, then hotglued them together.


 -Carol


On May 30, 2010, at 3:37 PM, ladybeanofbun...@aol.com wrote:

Didn't realize anyone actually ever marketed something of the sort.  
I've never seen one online but wish I had! Maybe they don't use the  
exact same type of chicken wire because the kind I use is flexible  
enough that there was never a problem getting the exact form  
required. The secret is to sort of tuck in the wire to make a  
larger reduction quickly sort of like folding under fabric.
Would really like to know now how the other ones are to work with,  
if they'd be easier or harder but when cutting everything to size  
on your own it will be the right height, width, etc.
Do you know what brand they were? It's probably much cheaper  
despite the extra effort to make them, though I made my first 6 in  
one afternoon so it isn't too difficult if you have a good game  
plan before starting. Guess it is a matter of weighing preference,  
time and convenience vs. cost.

-Justine.



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] 19th c women's dress - pockets

[Carol Kocian]

 Spot on, Robin!

 Also I remember the days before styrofoam was prevalent, and we  
would take home the extra bread in a napkin in mom's purse. Posh  
restaurants (with the cloth napkins) would wrap the leftovers in  
foil, and if you were lucky in the shape of a swan. I saw that on  
TV.  :-)


 -Carol


On Jun 9, 2010, at 4:19 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:


debloughcostu...@aol.com wrote:

Firstly, even though a pocket may have been sizable enough to  
accomodate  the items referred to, it wouldn't be waterproof.
 Secondly, who in their right mind would put them all in there   
together???  My coat has poachers pockets - designed for the  
transportation  of freshly shot game birds and therefore  
waterproof (not that I use it for such)  - I still wouldn't be  
putting cake and wine and chicken in there all at  once...


Ah, but she didn't put in wine, not intentionally. She put in "cold  
chicken and sweet cakes," not the "jellies, creams, and ices" that  
were also being served. The mischievous observer clearly thought  
this greedy behavior was inappropriate, and, tempted by the  
"opportunity," he dumped in his custard (I think that's what was in  
the glass he described, not wine) when she wasn't looking, fully  
aware she'd find an unexpected mess later, "when she got home."


The cold chicken and sweet cakes sound as though they were set out  
as finger foods -- maybe greasy, but certainly self-contained and  
maybe not that large. The sweet cakes may have been something  
equivalent to cookies or brownies; the chicken and meats may even  
have been pastry-wrapped but might have been chunks or slices. Wrap  
them in a handkerchief and it's no messier than tucking an  
unfinished few things from your plate into a napkin in your purse  
when you're leaving a restaurant. (I should note that taking home  
food you've paid for as part of a meal is quite unobjectionable,  
and not parallel to the situation in the quotation. Lifting food  
off the buffet-at-the-ball as described is more like pocketing  
extras off an all-you-can-eat buffet after you've eaten your fill,  
as someone else mentioned in this thread. That's probably what  
caught the writer's attention, who makes the point that the women  
in question had already eaten as much as they could.)


The quotation again:
"The supper was at a buffet in another room and there was plenty of
cold chicken and cold meat, with jellies, creams and ices, which was
done justice to, especially by the ladies who crowded up to the buffet
and, after eating as much as they could, pocketed many of the good
things.  One stout middle-aged French woman was engaged in filling her
pockets which were stuffed out with cold chicken and sweet cakes as
she stood before me.  I was eating a custard – the opportunity was
tempting – so I emptied my glass into her open pocket, and a nice
mixture she must have found when she got home."

--Robin



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Make Historic Costumes Count too!

[Carol Kocian]

Great link, thank you! The cut off date for entries is July 16th. I  
hope to see more H- and F- costumers there!


-Carol


On Jul 13, 2010, at 5:58 AM, penny1a wrote:

Please HELP! I have entered a fashion photo contest sponsored by  
the Museum
of Costume/Fashion, Bath, England. I have entered 9 photos, some  
that have
not been seen on the web before. Other photos are from Costume Cons  
27 & 28.
Please look at them and leave a comment. Ask your friends to look  
at them.

Thanks in advance!  The photos can be seen at:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
FashionsPa

standFuture

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com 
14 websites of fashion, textiles, & costume history


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Make Historic Costumes Count too!

[Carol Kocian]

Deadline Today — Fashion Photography Contest

My photos are up! Please view and comment.  :-)
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
RememberingJeremyFarrell


Also friends recreated Collete's "Miss Tipapin":
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
MissTipapin


Don't forget to see Penny's entry:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
FashionsPastandFuture


...and plenty more entries of modern fashion that are fun to browse  
through.


The deadline to enter is today, and keep in mind the time difference  
for England. I don't know if they have to be in by midnight or close  
of business.


-Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] pseudo historic costume

[Carol Kocian]

Oh well, those are the hazards of contests.  :-/

Actually I think together they make a cute costume group — St.  
George, the princess and the dragon.


It's a funny thing, I can remember getting to the point in making  
clothes where friends assumed they were purchased because they didn't  
look home-made. Good work from both of you!


-Carol


On Aug 1, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Deb Salisbury, the Mantua-Maker wrote:

I agree with Nancy; you were robbed!  You gals did a great job.   
Tell your daughter she gets my vote, hands down!


Happy sewing,
  Deb Salisbury
  The Mantua-Maker
  Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns,  
Renaissance to Victorian

  Now available:
 Elephant's Breath and London Smoke: Historical Colors,  
Names, Definitions & Uses

  www.mantua-maker.com
  http://mantua-maker-patterns.blogspot.com

the only costume sewing I've done this year is for my daughter's 4H  
costume.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/21642...@n06/4833605329/

She fit the costume and made the armor and accessories and cut out  
all the silver fabric applique. I had to iron it on because she  
melted the first one, and I sewed the seams just to save needles  
and/or a trip to the repair shop. (she's a rather careless seamstress)


Sadly (for us), the girl behind her won the class

Denise B
Iowa



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] pseudo historic costume

[Carol Kocian]

Oh, I see — I thought the ears looked like horns.  :-)

-Carol


On Aug 1, 2010, at 9:24 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:

Oh, I thought she was a Princess and the horse was the Frog! (see  
large lips

for kissing)

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Carol Kocian
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 4:26 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pseudo historic costume

Oh well, those are the hazards of contests.  :-/

Actually I think together they make a cute costume group - St.
George, the princess and the dragon.

It's a funny thing, I can remember getting to the point in making  
clothes

where friends assumed they were purchased because they didn't look
home-made. Good work from both of you!

-Carol


On Aug 1, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Deb Salisbury, the Mantua-Maker wrote:


I agree with Nancy; you were robbed!  You gals did a great job.
Tell your daughter she gets my vote, hands down!

Happy sewing,
  Deb Salisbury
  The Mantua-Maker
  Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns,
Renaissance to Victorian
  Now available:
 Elephant's Breath and London Smoke: Historical Colors,  
Names,

Definitions & Uses
  www.mantua-maker.com
  http://mantua-maker-patterns.blogspot.com

the only costume sewing I've done this year is for my daughter's 4H
costume.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21642...@n06/4833605329/

She fit the costume and made the armor and accessories and cut out  
all
the silver fabric applique. I had to iron it on because she melted  
the
first one, and I sewed the seams just to save needles and/or a  
trip to

the repair shop. (she's a rather careless seamstress)

Sadly (for us), the girl behind her won the class

Denise B
Iowa



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Fashion Photography Competition

[Carol Kocian]

Hi all,

I just noticed this morning they re-enabled the comments for the  
fashion photo contest. They were disabled for a few weeks, maybe  
because of administrators on vacation. Also five more entries have  
been added, again I assume they were in on time but not approved  
until now.


Please have a look and leave your comments!

mine:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
RememberingJeremyFarrell


Penny's:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
FashionsPastandFuture


Miss Tipapin:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
MissTipapin


A new historic entry:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/MattV

And this one from my next-door neighbor:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/ 
17to21Years/BorisKafkaFashionhound


Thanks!
-Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Need help on quick solution for boy's clothing, c. 1800, US Midwest

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Robin,

 If he's working class, long trousers would be fine. I  
understand going with breeches since that reads more as a historic  
costume.


 Stockings: get black stockings and black shoes. I know in the  
1770s, servants wore colored stockings. Possibly they looked cleaner  
than white. :-)


 If you have black shoes and black stockings, neither will be  
emphasized so you don't have to worry so much about them being good.


 I think the neckstock is a great idea, and that way you don't  
have to worry at all about the collar on the shirt. I don't agree  
about a mandarin collar, since shirts of the time had collars. But  
it's moot if he has a neck stock.  :-)


 -Carol


On Sep 1, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:

This is all really useful! I've been having a terrible time finding  
good images online because the "costume" sources all seem to focus  
on East Coast "Colonial" or all-leather "Daniel Boone" styles with  
not much in between. I will need to take time for a slow perusal  
through art and such, but time is just what I don't have right now.


Great idea from Denise about a mandarin collared shirt, which may  
save me the trouble of making new. (I hate sewing for a growing boy  
who will outgrow it before the next year's event!) Goodwill, here I  
come.


A look at photos from previous events at the site in question shows  
lots of breeches like Albert described. I can modify a pair of my  
kid's outgrown khaki pants for these. A couple of questions for  
those of you who've done it: First, how low do I cut them off? I'm  
thinking below the knee, maybe by a couple of inches; he'll need to  
be sitting when he performs and needs freedom of movement, and I  
don't want them binding at the knee when he bends his leg. Second,  
how best to fasten the band at the bottom of the pants leg? With a  
button (what type?) or something else?


I'm thinking on the line of girls' plain white kneesocks to cover  
the calf, unless someone tells me otherwise. Shoes, I'm probably  
stuck with the black athletics unless there are moccasins or boots  
in the right size at Goodwill, but I can get away with the shoes;  
any attempt at costume will be welcome, and it's not a strict re- 
enactment.


--Robin


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Carol Kocian]

On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:


Laurie T wrote:

The chemise in the painting seems unlikely to have a drawstring  
neckline.

Any thoughts on this?


We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and  
the consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn  
gathers round the neck and wrists.


I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on  
the 17th century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed  
the above statement.


Kate Bunting
Librarian & 17th century reenactor.



Not much in the way of drawstrings in the 18thC, either. There are a  
few cases of a drawstring to snug up or hold the shape of a neckline,  
but not for controlling mass quantities of fabric. Shift sleeves were  
gathered into cuffs that buttoned and sometimes had a ruffle added..  
Some decades had volume in the sleeves, others had less volume when  
the gown sleeves fit closely.


I think the 1960s/70s "peasant" look made us believe drawstrings were  
all over the place.


-Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Words for clothes

[Carol Kocian]

It's a funny thing, since the Costume Society of America says it's  
all costume, even what I'm wearing right now.  :-)


For many people, "costume" is for Halloween and theater, so most  
groups who have specialized clothing for other purposes will pick  
another term. Any word we choose can still be said with some disdain  
and eye-rolling. When it's asked respectfully (and I think most times  
it is), then I agree we can explain the differences without taking an  
offended posture.


-Carol


On Oct 12, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Chris Laning wrote:


On Oct 12, 2010, at 6:02 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

Now here is another interesting use of a word for one's clothing  
and accouterments.  Had to look up exactly what "regalia" means--I  
have of course seen it to mean one's trappings, outfit, etc.  Its  
origin, though, which makes sense if one thinks about it, is the  
rights and privileges belong to a monarch or ruler.


I referred to myself as a costume historian to a War of 1812  
reenactor, and he insisted his outfit is clothing, not costume.   
Yet, among square dancers, the preferred term for the matching  
outfits worn by everyone on the committee of a national square  
dance convention is "costume."


Clothing, apparel, attire, costume, regalia--I guess it is like  
one's own personal name--one should use the term the individual  
(or group) prefers.  However, one shouldn't be offended if a poor  
soul uses the wrong term because one doesn't know what that group  
prefers!



And in the Society for Creative Anachronism it's "garb."

When people are talking about their medieval clothes, they are  
sometimes garb, sometimes simply clothes -- very few people call  
them a "costume" (at least in my hearing), although someone who  
makes such medieval clothes is usually a "costumer."


I prefer "clothes," as do many of the people I hang out with, but  
"garb" is handy as a one-word term for "the clothes I wear to SCA  
events, as opposed to the clothes I wear on other days."


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Vintage wedding dress

[Carol Kocian]

You may want to check E-bay to see what similar items are going for.  
As "special occasion" clothing, wedding dresses do tend to be saved.  
They have more sentimental value to people in the family than to others.


Is there a drycleaner who specializes in wedding dresses who can  
assess the condition? It may look good but have dry rot and not  
suitable to wear. The larger the size, the easier it would be to find  
a bride interested in it.


-Carol


On Oct 12, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Rebecca Tonkin wrote:


Hi All:
My great-aunt recently unearthed an old wedding dress from 1935. It  
is apparently (I haven't seen it) in good condition. My question  
is, does such a dress have any value? and if so, where would be  
best to enquire about selling it? I live in Australia.

Thanks for any help,
Rebecca


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] 18th C. Painting: "Lady with the Veil", Italian "Bolognaise" style?

[Carol Kocian]

Good question — there's not much visible of her outfit! There are  
Venetian carnivale images with women wearing veils.


Two places to check are in Yahoogroups. 18cWoman has many people  
knowledgeable about 18thC dress. Lumieres might be even more specific  
— there are many European members of that list and would have closer  
access to sources.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/18cWoman/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lumieres/

-Carol


On Nov 9, 2010, at 9:41 AM, Michael Hamilton wrote:


Dear List,

I'm doing some early/mid 18th Century Italian costume making right  
now.  I'm

interested in distinctions between Italian (and various city-states in
Italy) and more general European style at the time (read: French).

To wit, one of my favorite paintings:

http://www.nationalmuseum.se/sv/English-startpage/Collections/ 
Painting/18th-century/The-Lady-with-the-Veil--/


In the caption, it mentions that Mrs Roslin-Giroust is dressed "a la
Boulognaise", or in the style of Bologna.

So, the big question - what about her dress is "Boulognaise"?   
(BTW, google
unfortunately gets swamped by spaghetti recipes when you try to  
google it).


Since Alexander Roslin had traveled widely in Italy, and he and his  
wife
were living in Paris at the time, they would certainly have been  
aware of
specific fashion difference.  Not knowing who exactly wrote the  
caption, I
am assuming that there *is* something distinct in the clothing, or  
why would

it be mentioned?

Given that so little of her dress is actually visible, I suppose the
particular are narrowed down to:
-the veil
-the gloves
-the dress flounces

The dress flounces seem to be typical for that time... the gloves/ 
mitts seem
fairly typical (eg. "Costume Closeup").  The veil seems more like a  
prop

here than an actual item

So, anybody have any ideas?   Any references that might be of help
identifying specifically italian-regional clothing differences in  
the 18th

century?

Thanks and Best Regards,
Mike
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] how museums can help costumers

[Carol Kocian]

On Nov 11, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Chris Laning wrote:

Both of these, alas, pretty much boil down to questions of money.  
Museums are increasingly understaffed, and often can't spare the  
time for their curators to do much research on what something  
really is and how it should be labeled. Also, it means that the few  
curators they can hire often don't cover the full range of  
expertise they need for the things they have -- almost no fine arts  
museums have jewelry curators, for instance.




 Sometimes it's a matter of what costumers can do for museums!  
It's possible that they could use volunteers for some of these tasks.  
If the museum is an essential source for the type of costuming you  
do, make them your project as well.


 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume