Re: [HOT] Validators [was: COVID-19 For The Long Haul]

[John Whelan]

Difficult, how many mappers would a validator oversee at the same time.  
The edits are done on a local PC and the bandwidth requirements between 
the mapper and validator would be higher than the existing method and 
bandwidth is often at a premium.


Having said that the idea has merit for a mapper who intends to map more 
than once.  It's just expensive in validator time and remember it has to 
be an experienced validator.


Cheerio John


Lists wrote on 2020-04-24 10:03 AM:
I wonder if it would be possible to "validate" in real time. Some 
method that a validator could watch as the mapper did their thing, and 
make suggestions as they went? Then it becomes both training and 
validation simultaneously. Obviously it would have to be on a consent 
basis from the mapper, ie they would have to opt in when they started 
and a validator would have to be available. Otherwise, it seems like 
it would be better just to make the correction and maybe have it send 
a message to the mapper about what got changed.


Bryan Sayer


 Original message ----
From: john whelan 
Date: 04/24/2020 9:43 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Jean-Marc Liotier 
Cc: "HOT@OSM (Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team)" 
Subject: Re: [HOT] Validators [was: COVID-19 For The Long Haul]

What I found when validating HOT tasks was that if I provided feedback 
that wasn't too negative on the task "ie the african highway wiki 
suggests that this type of highway should be mapped thus: with a link 
and reference to the wiki rather than you done it wrong" then the 
mapper would go on to do far more tiles and do them correctly, but it 
had to be done very shortly after the mapper had mapped.  So I'd sit 
on a project and immediately validate the tiles as they were done.  It 
took considerable time and effort on my part to do this.  I also 
noticed some validation was done by inexperienced mappers who were 
invalidating tiles for correctly mapped highways etc.  One that comes 
to mind was project manager who invalidated a tile for a highway that 
had been correctly mapped in OSM before the project started on the 
grounds that mapping highways was not part of the project.


However what I noticed as Jean-Marc has commented was that much of the 
mapping problems were from mappers who hadn't completed the tile and 
their feedback wasn't immediate.  Feedback sent to them was basically 
ignored 99% of the time.


A couple of things happened.  The task manager changed and I could no 
longer find the last tile mapped.  Response tails off over time.  
Within the hour 80% response, within a day 50% response, a week 2% 
response.  Validating a tile a week later meant the feedback didn't 
reach the mapper immediately.  Second I'd no idea if the mapper had 
corrected their problems later or not.  So the mapper might get half a 
dozen messages for tiles they had mapped sometime ago and they had 
already changed their mapping practices.  This is not positive feedback.


The second thing was the projects wanted buildings. I'd already 
noticed that some buildings were being mapped two or three times.  
Validating a building? Well it takes me 2 or 3 mouse clicks to map one 
in JOSM with the building tool, building=yes.  iD takes more clicks.  
To correct an incorrect building takes more effort than to map it 
correctly in the first place.  Someone was kind enough to build me a 
script in JOSM that detects duplicate buildings.  I'm not going to 
validate work when it takes longer to validate than to do it correctly 
in the first place.


Then it gets interesting.  The JOSM validation tools have improved.  
These days I can grab about a tenth of an African country at a time.  
It takes 16 gigs of memory and JOSM has to be set up correctly but it 
works.  The duplicate building script now will detect duplicate 
buildings over one tenth of the country not just a tiny tile.  JOSM 
validation and the todo list are very powerful for picking up crossing 
highways, other errors and doubtful tagging.


These days there are more automated approaches to picking up errors in 
mapping.  Both Jean-Marc and myself fix multiple errors by HOT 
mappers.  I must confess that if the error was made four years ago on 
a HOT project by a mapper who has made four edits and the mapper 
hasn't mapped for four years I might even correct the error without a 
changeset comment.


I worked with the training group to identify the most common errors, I 
understand that training for project managers and validators has 
improved and projects no longer ask new mappers for complex mapping.


I understand that validation can help new mappers and get projects 
completed more quickly but I also understand it takes a lot of time 
and effort on behalf of the validators to do it right.


Cheerio John



On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 07:06, Jean-Marc Liotier <mailto:j...@liotier.org>> wrote:


On 4/24/20 12:26 PM, Russell Deffner wrote:
> Especially crucial are our Validato

Re: [HOT] Validators [was: COVID-19 For The Long Haul]

[john whelan]

What I found when validating HOT tasks was that if I provided feedback that
wasn't too negative on the task "ie the african highway wiki suggests that
this type of highway should be mapped thus: with a link and reference to
the wiki rather than you done it wrong" then the mapper would go on to do
far more tiles and do them correctly, but it had to be done very shortly
after the mapper had mapped.  So I'd sit on a project and immediately
validate the tiles as they were done.  It took considerable time and effort
on my part to do this.  I also noticed some validation was done by
inexperienced mappers who were invalidating tiles for correctly mapped
highways etc.  One that comes to mind was project manager who invalidated a
tile for a highway that had been correctly mapped in OSM before the project
started on the grounds that mapping highways was not part of the project.

However what I noticed as Jean-Marc has commented was that much of the
mapping problems were from mappers who hadn't completed the tile and their
feedback wasn't immediate.  Feedback sent to them was basically ignored 99%
of the time.

A couple of things happened.  The task manager changed and I could no
longer find the last tile mapped.  Response tails off over time.  Within
the hour 80% response, within a day 50% response, a week 2% response.
Validating a tile a week later meant the feedback didn't reach the mapper
immediately.  Second I'd no idea if the mapper had corrected their problems
later or not.  So the mapper might get half a dozen messages for tiles they
had mapped sometime ago and they had already changed their mapping
practices.  This is not positive feedback.

The second thing was the projects wanted buildings. I'd already noticed
that some buildings were being mapped two or three times.  Validating a
building? Well it takes me 2 or 3 mouse clicks to map one in JOSM with the
building tool, building=yes.  iD takes more clicks.  To correct an
incorrect building takes more effort than to map it correctly in the first
place.  Someone was kind enough to build me a script in JOSM that detects
duplicate buildings.  I'm not going to validate work when it takes longer
to validate than to do it correctly in the first place.

Then it gets interesting.  The JOSM validation tools have improved.  These
days I can grab about a tenth of an African country at a time.  It takes 16
gigs of memory and JOSM has to be set up correctly but it works.  The
duplicate building script now will detect duplicate buildings over one
tenth of the country not just a tiny tile.  JOSM validation and the todo
list are very powerful for picking up crossing highways, other errors and
doubtful tagging.

These days there are more automated approaches to picking up errors in
mapping.  Both Jean-Marc and myself fix multiple errors by HOT mappers.  I
must confess that if the error was made four years ago on a HOT project by
a mapper who has made four edits and the mapper hasn't mapped for four
years I might even correct the error without a changeset comment.

I worked with the training group to identify the most common errors, I
understand that training for project managers and validators has improved
and projects no longer ask new mappers for complex mapping.

I understand that validation can help new mappers and get projects
completed more quickly but I also understand it takes a lot of time and
effort on behalf of the validators to do it right.

Cheerio John



On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 07:06, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On 4/24/20 12:26 PM, Russell Deffner wrote:
> > Especially crucial are our Validators! With so many projects in so
> > many locations, it will be a monumental task to keep up on validation.
> > If you have the role, please leave the mapping to the newer
> > contributors and help us keep our quality up and give instructions to
> > mappers as soon as possible.
> What happens when tasks are invalidated ? In theory the errant
> contributor welcomes constructive feedback, fixes his contribution and
> mends his ways. How often does that happen in practice ? I almost (there
> are a few happy exceptions of growing contributors) never receive
> answers to changeset comments, so most often what was supposed to be
> validation ends up as mopping up after ephemeral contributors. I don't
> work with the tasking manager - my validation activities are driven by
> Osmose and OSMcha... Is the validation experience different with the
> tasking manager or is my experience representative of a problem ?
>
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Re: [HOT] Experienced JOSM users - place names task in Peru

[John Whelan]

The problem is there have been problems with both the data quality and 
licensing of imports in the past.


Whilst I'm very confident this import meets all the criteria needed for 
an import I really would recommend formally doing a formal import write 
up and running it by the import mailing list.


I've been involved in imports in the past and if you talk to them first 
it goes a lot smoother otherwise you run the risk of a complaint and 
having all the imported data removed.


Cheerio John

Geoffrey Kateregga wrote on 2020-04-17 8:53 AM:

Thank you @mbranco2 and John for the comments,

Please correct me if I am wrong, my understanding of an import is when 
you integrate data into the OSM database coming from a third party.
The data we are adding was generated from already existing OSM data, 
which was imported following the import guidelines.


Regards,
Geoffrey

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:40 PM mbranco2 <mailto:mbran...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Thank you Rebecca, luckily you sent your answer to me too (not
only to the mailing list), so I got the document  :-)

I think John is right, the best thing is to inform the import ML:
submitting there the (well written) document you sent me should be
an excellent starting point.

Ciao,
Marco

Il giorno ven 17 apr 2020 alle ore 14:20 Rebecca Firth
mailto:rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org>> ha
scritto:

Hi,

Marco - The document is set so anyone can view it, but in case
that is not working for some people I have added an offline
copy in a previous email but it is pending an admin of this
list to approve it.
John - the data is actually derived from data that is in OSM
already based on the tagging of school locations (which have
sub district tagged already) - it's taken from this field, so
the data is already from OSM.

Thanks,

Rebecca

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:10 PM john whelan
mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Have you run this past the import mailing list?

Thanks John

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:42 AM Rebecca Firth,
mailto:rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for the continued support for HOT's
Covid response. I'm getting in touch with a message
for experienced JOSM users, in case you have some time
to support our response in Cusco Peru where I live.
The goal is to map 20993 place names mostly of
hamlets, villages in Peru to complement the ongoing
COVID-19 HOT activation for Peru.

The task is here: https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/8301
And the instructions are

here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CEL1syh6FNl36plurvKSp-2NGGx5fFWS-uL2viD7p80/edit#heading=h.u2sbpt8odktw

Thank you so much!

Rebecca

-- 
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Director, Community & Partnerships
rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org <mailto:rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org>
@RebeccaFirthy

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response &
Economic Development*
web <http://hotosm.org/> | twitter
<https://twitter.com/hotosm> | facebook
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@RebeccaFirthy

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic
Development*
web <http://hotosm.org/> | twitter
<https://twitter.com/hotosm> | facebook
<https://www.facebook.com/hotosm> | donate
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Skype: geoffrey5142
twitter <https://

Re: [HOT] Experienced JOSM users - place names task in Peru

[John Whelan]

There is a formal process for imports and I strongly suggest you run it 
by the import mailing list just to be on the safe side to to avoid problems.


Cheerio John

Rebecca Firth wrote on 2020-04-17 8:19 AM:

Hi,

Marco - The document is set so anyone can view it, but in case that is 
not working for some people I have added an offline copy in a previous 
email but it is pending an admin of this list to approve it.
John - the data is actually derived from data that is in OSM already 
based on the tagging of school locations (which have sub district 
tagged already) - it's taken from this field, so the data is already 
from OSM.


Thanks,

Rebecca

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:10 PM john whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Have you run this past the import mailing list?

Thanks John

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:42 AM Rebecca Firth,
mailto:rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for the continued support for HOT's Covid
response. I'm getting in touch with a message for experienced
JOSM users, in case you have some time to support our response
in Cusco Peru where I live. The goal is to map 20993 place
names mostly of hamlets, villages in Peru to complement the
ongoing COVID-19 HOT activation for Peru.

The task is here: https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/8301
And the instructions are

here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CEL1syh6FNl36plurvKSp-2NGGx5fFWS-uL2viD7p80/edit#heading=h.u2sbpt8odktw

Thank you so much!

Rebecca

-- 
*Rebecca Firth*

Director, Community & Partnerships
rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org <mailto:rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org>
@RebeccaFirthy

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic
Development*
web <http://hotosm.org/> | twitter
<https://twitter.com/hotosm> | facebook
<https://www.facebook.com/hotosm> | donate
<http://donate.hotosm.org/>

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--
*Rebecca Firth*
Director, Community & Partnerships
rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org <mailto:rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org>
@RebeccaFirthy

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
web <http://hotosm.org/> | twitter <https://twitter.com/hotosm> | 
facebook <https://www.facebook.com/hotosm> | donate 
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Re: [HOT] Experienced JOSM users - place names task in Peru

[john whelan]

Have you run this past the import mailing list?

Thanks John

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:42 AM Rebecca Firth, 
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Thank you so much for the continued support for HOT's Covid response. I'm
> getting in touch with a message for experienced JOSM users, in case you
> have some time to support our response in Cusco Peru where I live. The goal
> is to map 20993 place names mostly of hamlets, villages in Peru to
> complement the ongoing COVID-19 HOT activation for Peru.
>
> The task is here: https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/8301
> And the instructions are here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CEL1syh6FNl36plurvKSp-2NGGx5fFWS-uL2viD7p80/edit#heading=h.u2sbpt8odktw
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> Rebecca
>
> --
> *Rebecca Firth*
> Director, Community & Partnerships
> rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org
> @RebeccaFirthy
>
> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
> web  | twitter  | facebook
>  | donate 
>
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Re: [HOT] Idle thought time mapping without the Internet

[john whelan]

As I said there are a number of technical solutions but in order to add
names and detail we need to document / simplify them (Mapping osm for
dummies?) and get them into the hands of people on the ground.

Cheerio John

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020 at 09:37, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:

> On 4/4/20 08:26, john whelan wrote:
> > Fidonet, a precursor to the internet could use floppy disks in the post
> > to get high volumes of messages through sometimes.  An another
> > alternative is store and forward.  Drop a device on a bus or delivery
> > truck and it offers wifi connection to anything within range.  Your
> > messages get carried along to the server at the end of the route.
>
> If you're using a GNU variant or other Unix-like system, NNCP can do
> this relatively easily. It hasn't yet been ported to Windows, though.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
> http://www.rantroulette.com
> http://www.skqrecordquest.com
>
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Re: [HOT] Idle thought time mapping without the Internet

[john whelan]

I think there are technical solutions floating around but it's working out
a procedure that is the problem.

Mentally I'd go for extending the internet with Wi-Fi over distance to the
local health centre.  This I think has been done in South America.  20 kms
is doable with a beamed signal.  Once there out of hours allow email to and
from smartphones.  Gmail does store messages on the device then exchange
messages when it sees the email server. This can be a email server other
than Google by the way.

7z compresses files extremely well.

France uses OSM in schools, perhaps build on that approach.

osmconvert can be used to chop up osm files so create a sample with that,
compress send it out.  Get it on a smartphone, add detail, get it back up.

This came up out of Mali by the way. I can drop highways in and settlements
but for names and detail you need boots on the ground.  I spoke to someone
locally who is from Mali who couldn't see the value of adding names to the
locals until I said Amazon then her eyes widened as the penny dropped.
This will be a problem as locals don't realise the value of OSM and the
internet until they have gained some experience and they might need some
training so piggy back on schools?

Fidonet, a precursor to the internet could use floppy disks in the post to
get high volumes of messages through sometimes.  An another alternative is
store and forward.  Drop a device on a bus or delivery truck and it offers
wifi connection to anything within range.  Your messages get carried along
to the server at the end of the route.

It might be an idea to have a wiki page with the various technical
solutions on it.  Getting internet to remote locations is interesting.  The
cost per byte in Mali is one of the highest in the world so it needs 7z in
the mix certainly.

I think this is where we need someone in the developing countries to step
up to the table. They have a better idea of what would work practically and
working it all out would be an interesting problem.

Cheerio John

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020, 2:39 AM Pete Masters, 
wrote:

> There is also the kobo for Missing Maps tool:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C2ycpdDpOo
>
> It's less visual, unless used in combination with OSMAnd or maps.me, but
> the workflow for getting data into OSM is working... It's not completely
> 'without internet' but once the app and form are downloaded, the data
> collection can be done completely offline. Does need a small amount of data
> to submit the points of interest to the server once they are collected, of
> course...
>
> Pete
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 2:39 AM Phil Wyatt  wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> There is the Portable OpenStreetMap project but I suspect that needs to
>> be well supported by a team of people who know how it all works
>>
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/posm/posm
>>
>>
>>
>> That may be an option if working in a ‘project’ type environment
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* john whelan 
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 4 April 2020 11:56 AM
>> *To:* HOT 
>> *Subject:* [HOT] Idle thought time mapping without the Internet
>>
>>
>>
>> Can it be done?
>>
>>
>>
>> We have a problem with adding names and detail in developing countries.
>> So it needs to be cheap and rugged.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking in terms of smartphone for mapping.  You need to get data to
>> it and from it.
>>
>>
>>
>> So step one OsmAndMapCreator and create an OSMAND map.  USB stick in the
>> post.  The USB stick goes into a laptop.  Do schools have laptops?  Even
>> for admin purposes?
>>
>>
>>
>> Connect the smartphone to the laptop.  Wifi and something like
>> network_browser or even a USB cable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Edit in osmand.  Hopefully someone can think of a way to get the edits
>> back to OSM.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks John
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[HOT] Idle thought time mapping without the Internet

[john whelan]

Can it be done?

We have a problem with adding names and detail in developing countries.  So
it needs to be cheap and rugged.

I'm thinking in terms of smartphone for mapping.  You need to get data to
it and from it.

So step one OsmAndMapCreator and create an OSMAND map.  USB stick in the
post.  The USB stick goes into a laptop.  Do schools have laptops?  Even
for admin purposes?

Connect the smartphone to the laptop.  Wifi and something like
network_browser or even a USB cable.

Edit in osmand.  Hopefully someone can think of a way to get the edits back
to OSM.

Thoughts?

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common deprecated. Alternatives?

[John Whelan]

The issue is more the web map will no longer render it.  OSMAND may.

Perhaps talk to the people who render the map?

Cheerio John

Rafael Avila Coya wrote on 2020-03-29 2:57 PM:

Hi all:

For years we've been using the tag leisure=common for open areas 
inside villages and towns in countries of Africa and Asia. We were 
fairly comfortable with that tag, but now it appears as deprecated.


Do we have any alternative? Or should we continue using it meanwhile 
there isn't any alternative?


Cheers,

Rafael.


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Re: [HOT] Keen to host a virtual mapathon?

[john whelan]

The other part of this is you are most vulnerable if you have an underlying
condition.  So having a flu shot etc helps.

I think we can expect a vaccine within a year so knowing where the villages
are and how to get there even by motorcycle or bike will be helpful.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 1:12 AM Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20/3/20 4:08 pm, Jess Beutler wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I believe there is a misunderstanding of the request being made. As many
> individuals are stuck at home, there are people and organizations
> requesting *virtual* mapathons so that those at home can keep busy and
> socialize online while also supporting a good cause.
>
> And the purpose is not necessarily to map resources related to the
> COVID-19 response, but one of the several active tasks available. We are
> all rather consumed by the COVID response at the moment but there are still
> disasters and issues around the world that require our support.
>
> I hope that helps clarify the message!
>
> Happy Mapping,
> Jess
>
>
> Thanks Jess.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:51 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 20/3/20 6:26 am, Rebecca Firth wrote:
>> > Hi everyone,
>> >
>> > We've had a lot of requests from organisations (universities, company
>> > volunteers) and individuals looking to host virtual mapathons in light
>> > of Covid-19, and we're wondering if anyone on this list might be keen
>> > to help them out? It should be reasonably simple; dial into the
>> > mapathon, give an introduction to why maps are needed, and a
>> > demonstration of mapping in iD, then stick around to answer any
>> > questions mappers might have. If you're interested to help out, send
>> > me a note :)
>> >
>>
>> In what way would mapping in OSM help with the COVID?
>>
>>
>> In my country you phone and get assessed, if required you get directed
>> to a testing station. The testing station is temporary and may move
>> rapidly. Testing stations do not want to attract those who have not been
>> through the assessment procedure, so they don not want to be mapped.
>>
>> No point in mapping pharmacies/chemists as there is no anti virus.
>>
>> Mapping hospitals and Doctors? They don't want people showing up who
>> think they may have COVID without prior phone contact. See the above
>> about testing stations.
>>
>>
>> Now what are you going to map to aid COVID???  Having a 'mapathon' were
>> people are in close proximity to one another may certain aid the
>> propagation of COVID rather than hinder it.
>>
>>
>> Please list what you are thinking of adding to the map ...
>>
>> And think about unnecessary personal contact. Social distancing should
>> be the first consideration for COVID.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [HOT] COVID-19 - How you can help

[John Whelan]

Place names are probably one of the biggest challenges that we face and 
unfortunately local knowledge on the ground is the best source.  Some 
data is available for imports such as school names but  the quality is 
variable only some line up with a building or even being within a 
kilometer or two out.


Could you organise an effort to tag in someway those locations that have 
the correct name as correct so they can be relied upon?


Thanks John

Jorieke Vyncke wrote on 2020-03-19 12:23 PM:

Hi all,

Just sharing from the point of view of Médecins Sans Frontières 
(MSF).  Our teams have not requested any mapping data yet, but just 
letting you know that the data that is most useful for medical 
interventions (Covid-19 but also for most other health interventions) 
are information about where health facilities are and place names. 
Locations and names of health facilities is fairly obvious, but also 
place names are very important! Names of villages, of neighbourhoods 
in your towns, but also the boundaries of these, do allow 
epidemiologists and other health professionals to do contact tracing 
and the mapping of cases. So any health facility or place 
name/boundary that you add on the map is useful!


Best wishes,

Jorieke

*JoriekeVYNCKE*
MissingMaps ProjectCoordinator & OCA GIS Focal Point
Manson Unit - MSF UK

MSF_dual_English_CMYK
MSF UK, 10 Furnival Street, London, EC4A 1AB
www.msf.org.uk  ||  +44 (0)20 7404 6600 || UK 
Charity Reg. No. 10265888


Don't print if you don't need


Op wo 18 mrt. 2020 om 00:29 schreef David Garcia 
mailto:mapmakerda...@gmail.com>>:


Dear friends in OSM and HOT, these are trying, overwhelming, and
perilous times for all of us. Please let's be kind and listen
slowly to one another and support each other.

Sincerely,
*David*



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Re: [HOT] COVID-19 - How you can help

[John Whelan]

There are plenty of urgent things that HOT hasn't mapped yet.  What one 
NGO thinks is urgent another might not agree.


Take look at the Import mailing list and you'll find many blunter posts 
there.


There is a range of points of view within OpenStreetMap yours is one of 
them.


If you go back to the response to your first posts and read through them 
I think you will agree they were more polite.  Unfortunately you seemed 
unable to accept the advice given.


Fredrick can come across as blunt sometimes but what he says often makes 
sense and I agree with him about the dangers of imports.


You are in a well mapped area.  The locals probably know where their 
local pharmacy is.  From a medical point of view I'm unclear on how 
knowing details of where a pharmacy is is important to COVID-19.


There are no known drugs at this point in time.  Soap and water is 
probably the most effective preventive treatment, that and not going 
down to the pub or restaurant.


For the record I have done a fair amount of validation work in HOT 
projects until I grew tired of poor work that took more effort to 
validate than map correctly in the first place.  These days I spend time 
cleaning up the map, deleting duplicate buildings many of which have 
been mapped on HOT projects,  connecting villages that haven't been 
connected with highways etc.  I have had some experience with the import 
process and of gathering together support for the local mappers to do an 
import.


I suggest you relax a little, if OpenStreetMap isn't fun try something else.

Cheerio John

yo paseopor wrote on 2020-03-17 6:25 PM:
" But don't get me wrong. The problem is not the license or the 
discussion. The problem is you have offended me. I demand an apology."


One responsible of here wrote:

1. Nothing is urgent here
2. Nobody will suddenly suffer because a pharmacy is missing from OSM
3. You sit at home with nothing else to do.

What do you think about this three topics? What if some one tell that 
about one of the HOT projects?

Think about it.

If some OSM user say that to other user that would be unacceptable
If some HOT user say that to other user that would be unacceptable
If some HOT responsible say that to other user would be unacceptable
If some HOT responsible say that to a user about user's land would be 
unacceptable.


I don't know  who you are. It does not matter.
yopaseopor

PD: I'm confined. For the first time ever Spanish school (as European 
schools) are stopped without date of return.Nor Civil War or II World 
War stopped the school and confined all the people.  Also major part 
of citizens of Europe are confined. It's time to act.




On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 8:57 PM John Whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:


There is a difference between HOT and OpenStreetMap.  HOT adds
data to OpenStreetMap and has to follow OpenStreetMaps rules when
adding data as we all do.

If you are mapping from local knowledge ie I can see this that is
fine by OpenStreetMap rules.  The Import rules are for imports and
are there for a purpose which is to protect OpenStreetMap from
having data added to it that cannot be licensed by OpenStreetMap
to its end users using the .ODBL license.

Getting the correct license does take time sometimes, it took me
some five years to get the local municipal open data license
aligned with OpenStreetMap.  It is today and we are able import
the local bus stops. Doesn't sound like much but we have all the
phone numbers to dial to see when the next bus is coming.

The quality of some imports made in the past has been less than
ideal. Certainly there are places on the map that have tags saying
fixme this village name maybe 2 kilometers out.  I came across one
village yesterday with three different names which appeared to be
from three different imports.

Today imports are challenged routinely.  Locally I handled the
last one because the person who did it before really didn't want
to go through the aggressive challenges to the license and data
quality that came from the import mailing list.

Remember OpenStreetMap has many members, only some of whom believe
that imports are good.  Some others think if it hasn't been
surveyed with a mapper on the ground then it shouldn't be in the map.

Cheerio John

yo paseopor wrote on 2020-03-17 3:15 PM:

  You insult me. You have said to a confined teacher (For 1st
time ever, and it is not a joke ALL the education has been
stopped in Spain sine die)  literally: "you don't have any better
to do".

My first collaboration was Italy's 2015 Earthquake , in Amatrice.
In 24 hours I was mapping first the existed buildings, from Bing
or something like that. 24 hours later I was tagging the same
buildings following millitary data: red destroyed, yellow ruined
, green safe structures. It was an emergency, we 

Re: [HOT] COVID-19 - How you can help

[John Whelan]

There is a difference between HOT and OpenStreetMap.  HOT adds data to 
OpenStreetMap and has to follow OpenStreetMaps rules when adding data as 
we all do.


If you are mapping from local knowledge ie I can see this that is fine 
by OpenStreetMap rules.  The Import rules are for imports and are there 
for a purpose which is to protect OpenStreetMap from having data added 
to it that cannot be licensed by OpenStreetMap to its end users using 
the .ODBL license.


Getting the correct license does take time sometimes, it took me some 
five years to get the local municipal open data license aligned with 
OpenStreetMap.  It is today and we are able import the local bus stops. 
Doesn't sound like much but we have all the phone numbers to dial to see 
when the next bus is coming.


The quality of some imports made in the past has been less than ideal. 
Certainly there are places on the map that have tags saying fixme this 
village name maybe 2 kilometers out.  I came across one village 
yesterday with three different names which appeared to be from three 
different imports.


Today imports are challenged routinely.  Locally I handled the last one 
because the person who did it before really didn't want to go through 
the aggressive challenges to the license and data quality that came from 
the import mailing list.


Remember OpenStreetMap has many members, only some of whom believe that 
imports are good.  Some others think if it hasn't been surveyed with a 
mapper on the ground then it shouldn't be in the map.


Cheerio John

yo paseopor wrote on 2020-03-17 3:15 PM:
  You insult me. You have said to a confined teacher (For 1st time 
ever, and it is not a joke ALL the education has been stopped in Spain 
sine die)  literally: "you don't have any better to do".


My first collaboration was Italy's 2015 Earthquake , in Amatrice. In 
24 hours I was mapping first the existed buildings, from Bing or 
something like that. 24 hours later I was tagging the same buildings 
following millitary data: red destroyed, yellow ruined , green safe 
structures. It was an emergency, we had to act in that moment, with no 
delay.
I talk about this in a interview in a MSF 
Mapathon.https://beteve.cat/ciencia-i-tecnologia/crear-mapes-des-de-barcelona-per-fer-mes-accessible-lassistencia-medica-a-sierra-leone/ 

That impacted me so much. That changed my life. Nobody's tell me, Hey! 
you don't have anything better to do (was on summer holidays). From 
that, have I gone to 9? 10 mapathons?


5 years later, in a National Emergency situation one of the "Lizard 
People" of OSM told me when I have to tried to complete the pharmacies 
in my land , with a data set with specific permission to OSM three things:


1. Nothing is urgent here
2. Nobody will suddenly suffer because a pharmacy is missing from OSM
3. You sit at home with nothing else to do

Tell me one reason to collaborate with HOT for Burundi or Burkina Faso 
if I can't do with Catalonia or Spain, my land, with data which we 
have an specific permission.


But don't get me wrong. The problem is not the license or the 
discussion. The problem is you have offended me. I demand an apology.

yopaseopor

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 4:53 PM Frederik Ramm > wrote:


Hi,

On 2020-03-17 16:47, yo paseopor wrote:
> "Nothing is urgent here. Nobody will suddenly suffer because a
pharmacy
> is missing from OSM. You are just making up an urgent task
because you
> sit at home with nothing else to do." said by Frederik Ramm to an
> Openstreetmap volunteer who is confined at home due to #COVID19
> completing pharmacies in a zone, yesterday.
>
> Is this the way to promote HOT tasks or promote local mapping in
OSM. I
> don't think so.

You didn't promote local mapping, you promoted an import that has
meanwhile turned out to be a massive copyright violation because you
decided to act first and ask questions later - which is exactly
the kind
of "help" that I am advocating against. I don't doubt your good
intentions, but I am certain that every single person in the
humanitarian sector knows that good intentions alone aren't
sufficient.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [HOT] Master's thesis topic at HOT OSM

[john whelan]

There is considerable interest in importing buildings currently however
OpenStreetMap has rules around importing.  Join talk-ca to see the
discussion in Canada.  It isn't quite as simple as first appears nor as
fast to get consensus as one might like.  In the case of Canada it has
taken a number of years to reach where we are today.

It might be interesting to look at who maps what.  Some aspects can be done
from satellite imagery, others such as the name of a cafe needs boots on
the ground.  Examine the map and see which comes first.

Also it is worth examining who uses the map.  It isn't just one NGO even
though they might be behind a particular project or set of tiles.

Is it worth looking at how standards have evolved?  Take a look at the
African highway tagging.

algorithms, we could do with something to detect settlements with no
connecting highways.

Lots of highways in Africa are tagged unclassified and we know there should
be better differentiation.  Fancy tackling which are very minor highways
and which carry more traffic?

Not perhaps as black and white as you might like but looking at all the
things that need to be taken into account in the real world would be
valuable.

Cheerio John


On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 1:58 PM Jan Pišl,  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am a Master's student of Geoinformatics at Aalto University, Finland. I
> am currently seeking a topic for my Master's thesis. I am interested mainly
> in topics related to geospatial analytics, algorithms, and machine learning
> and AI and of course humanitarian mapping. For example, I have recently
> attended a HOT OSM Mapathon and it made me think if perhaps this could be
> automated to some extent. So, I would like to ask if there are any
> possibilities to conduct my thesis at HOT OSM?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jan Pisl
> jan.p...@aalto.fi
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-pisl-457a80154/
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Re: [HOT] Fwd: Happy 2020 + would you like to contribute to a retrospective on Haiti 2010 earthquake?

[John Whelan]

It depends on how you look at it and your standards.

First off we have the task manager system that came out of Haiti.  It 
isn't just used in HOT projects but elsewhere in OSM.


Next we have a degree of standardisation of things such as 
highway=unclassified.  The interesting thing here is how the African 
highway tagging guidelines came into being.  It was definitely driven by 
the NGOs.


Buildings, well iD is so easy to use but I organised a small mapathon 
with new mappers and just gave them JOSM and the buildings_tool.  They 
mapped about three or four times the number of buildings than a 
comparative number of mappers had done with iD and they were more 
accurate.  Not one got called out for not being squared.  Just for the 
record if the buildings are rectangular and in line it's two mouse 
clicks per building.  Not in line then it's three.


Even the less than perfect mapping has saved a few lives.  Getting 
vaccines to the right place in the right quantities without any maps or 
population counts is a problem.  With imperfect maps it is less of a 
problem.  Perfect maps would be better still.  Sometimes it is a matter 
of balancing quality against usefulness.  If a building is 10 cms out 
for some purposes it is useless.  For others the approximation is 
acceptable.


Low quality mapping, yes but out of that came the duplicate buildings 
script.  I suspect that the OSM guidelines for making a comment in the 
changeset  are not always followed when the mapper mapped once two years 
ago.  If you download a chunk of the map off line than run the JOSM 
validation tools a lot of crossing highways and not quite connected 
highways etc can be picked out and corrected.  Less effort than mapping 
everything from scratch and over time the unresolved mapping issues do 
get cleaned up.


Buildings are another issue.  I think it has been mentioned before an 
experienced mapper can map these in a quarter of the time it takes to 
correct an existing building.  Building validation basically doesn't 
happen.  Having said that standards do seem to be improving.


Local community?  Do we really need face to face local mappers for 
everything?  The guides and tutorials are getting better.  What the 
local mappers need is support and encouragement.  They also need time to 
understand what OSM can do and how best to use it.  The other side of 
this is education.  In order to map in OSM you need a certain amount of 
infrastructure and planning.  This education will get carried over into 
their everyday lives.  We also have the HOT training center and the 
training working group which as evolved over time.


Certainly it has economic benefits and what is better there is no 
corruption involved.  Companies are paying mappers to map in OSM. 
Companies exist to make a profit so there are economic benefits here.


Brand name recognition, it brought OSM into the headlines.  This meant 
OSM was recognised when I talk to my local city about Open Data.  It 
still took me five years to get the bus stops released under the right 
license but the brand recognition after Haiti definitely helped.


Cheerio John

Ralf Bernhardt via HOT wrote on 2020-01-11 10:07 AM:

In 2010 Haiti was a showcase project for OSM. But what have we achieved
in Haiti since then? We have not succeeded in creating a self-sustaining
local community. HOT still runs poorly managed, low quality beginner
projects. There is a mass of unresolved mapping issues.  After 10 years,
Haiti can certainly no longer be called a success story.


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Re: [HOT] Name tag in non-latin script - hindrance for NGOs/aid agencies?

[john whelan]

 default. And
>> It was based on the earlier work on XHTML which already included Unicode
>> support by default as well, from the current development of HTML4 which was
>> also updated to enforce the behavior for Unicode (notably it was made clear
>> that to be conforming, the numeric character references could only refer to
>> the UCS codepoints, independently of the charset used for the document, and
>> that all charsets had to have a mapping to the UCS.
>>
>> Now the issue is possibly elsewhere: when languages uses a script or
>> orthography not based on Unicode because it is still not well supported or
>> has problems.
>> - there were problems for Korean in Unicode 1.0 before the merge with the
>> ISO 10646, but Unicode 1.0 is dead since long and no software today are
>> making any reference to Unicode 1.0;
>> - there has been problems with the Unicode encoding for Burmese, and
>> Mongolian, they are mostly solved, except Mongolian with works still
>> pending for the behavior of some clusters and the best way to encode the
>> vowels, this will soon change but yes in that case there are problems; but
>> the change will not be from adopting or not Unicode, but in the best
>> sequences of Unicode characters to use to represent these clusters: this is
>> an orthographic change, not a change of encodings, but yes in that ase it
>> measn changing Unicode fonts for other updated Unicode fonts; no hack based
>> on legacy charsets are involded.
>>
>> Now there remains languages/scripts not encoded at all (not in Unicode
>> and not even in any other charset): making a reference to a legacy ISO
>> chartset is inapplicable as there's no such legacy charset. All that an be
>> done for now in these languages is to use some transliteration (but not
>> necessarily Latin): Uyghur for example is generally written in that case
>> using Chinese sinograms (with some specific forms in rare cases), or Arabic
>> (with some additional diacritics and forms, but if thee forms are not
>> handled in fonts, at least there's a basic orthography that is readable,
>> the same way that we can substitute some characters in Latin or remove some
>> diacritics for African languages, or simply not encoding some ligatures by
>> writing digrams instead: this is what happens already when these langauges
>> are used in some international documents and forms like passports: there's
>> a degraded orthography, but this is still readable and sufficiently
>> distinctive for practical uses and isolated text fragemtsn are not the
>> onily source of disambiguation as there are other contextual information,
>> including photo and biometric data or unique identifiers, and a scanned
>> handwritten signature, plus personal data, including address for
>> identification purpose).
>>
>> Anyway, even if there's a prefered orthography, slight deviation of
>> orthograhy is very common and frequently used in public displays or
>> advertizing, and no one is confused. And the "prefered" orthography is just
>> a matter of choice and is unstable across time, or even space when there
>> are competing authorities providing their own local terminology for some
>> local official uses, and not mandatory everywhere (and most languages also
>> have lot of dialects that may use different orthography to render their own
>> local phonology and accents: not everyone agree with these prefered form,
>> even in the same location where dialects are also competing. and let's
>> remember that all modern language continue to evolve and borrow a lot from
>> other languages and new terms are creatively added. Finally there are
>> orthographic reforms, but they take a considerable time to be adopted or
>> never reah any acceptation and legacy orthographies remain visible in lot
>> of places and publications (plus, people are much more mobile today and
>> there are widespread communities located around the world that adapt
>> constantly to their new context and on which the official reforms have no
>> impact).
>>
>> So in conclusion, there's no other choice than Unicode today. Unicode is
>> mandatory in XML, and in OSM. Don't spak about legacy charsets. But we are
>> jsut concerned by support in fonts: ALL characters encoded up to Unicode
>> 9.0 have suitable fonts immediately usable, and these fonts are all free
>> for use, and based on TrueType/OpenType. All OSM rendering softwares should
>> be able to use TrueType/Opentype fonts. The only remaining problem is the
>> existence of mobile phones that don't have a lot of embedded fonts and
>> support a more limited set. But none of th

Re: [HOT] Name tag in non-latin script - hindrance for NGOs/aid agencies?

[John Whelan]

The way I would approach this professionally would be to define the 
requirements first.


In this case we have a requirement to display the name in the language 
of choice.


We also have a requirement to be compatible with existing software.

Pragmatically I would recommend changing the name field to use only an 8 
bit Latin alphabet character set recognizing that not all systems can 
handle more complex character sets.  Which precise character set should 
be chosen would a be subject for discussion but either ISO-8859-1 or 
Windows-1252 would be contenders.  My personal preference would be the 
ISO standard.


Unicode is nice but we managed with 6 bit character sets for many years 
when I started with computers.  Even accented characters were a major 
problem.  Also remember that .OSM data is in XML format and XML came out 
of SGML which was first used to transmit documents over modems so only 7 
bits where available for encoding characters.  The extended characters 
use a special escape code sequence to hold the unicode characters.


Realistically software never wears out but source code gets lost. 
Compilers and operating systems get updated.  It may not be possible to 
modify existing software to handle unicode characters.  I have a 
perfectly good scanner sitting in the corner that no long can be used 
with Win 10 because of a new and improved driver.  With the 
OpenStreetMap environment there isn't even a way to get a complete list 
of software that uses the OpenStreetMap data so it can be tested.


The local language can be added in a name:  then software that can 
handle the local names can pick it up.  Osmand etc. can be configured to 
use the local name transparently so the local population can use it in 
the language of their choice.


This approach would appear to meet the requirements.  The argument that 
we should change all the existing software to meet a requirement that 
was not clearly defined when the software was written doesn't make sense 
to me.


Cheerio John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 2019-11-28 3:25 AM:

John,

On 28.11.19 01:40, John Whelan wrote:

Is there any reason why name:en could not be used?

The country's official language requires a "non-standard" font to be
available which does not seem to be a given on all platforms. Like if
you set up a standard tile server and don't install extra fonts you will
see little squares instead of place names all over China.

Apparently not all applications are as good in name:xx handling as
OsmAnd. A recurring point in the discussion is that the proponents of
using the official language say "we shouldn't fall back to English name
tags just because some apps/web sites are broken, we should file bug
reports with them instead", and the proponents of using English say
"let's be pragmatic, there's no way all these apps/sites will be fixed
within a short time, so we should use English".

Bye
Frederik



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Re: [HOT] Name tag in non-latin script - hindrance for NGOs/aid agencies?

[John Whelan]

Is there any reason why name:en could not be used?

I'm not seeking to influence here but looking for enlightenment.  In 
Canada locally we are able to display the map in either English or 
French certainly in OSMand.  OSMand defaults to the name value if 
name:fr is not available.


Thanks John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 2019-11-27 7:00 PM:

Dear HOT list,

the DWG has been involved in a discussion being had by the community in
a country where the official language uses non-latin characters.

I would like to keep this abstract hence I will not say which country it
is even though some of you will know; I don't think it matters. It is
not Japan but you can imagine Japan if you need an example.

In the country, more than 98% of the population speak the official
language as their native language, though English is commonly taught at
school and used in higher education. Older people or people outside of
the university system will often not be able to write English fluently.

Signs (road signs, signposts) seem to be exclusively in the official
language if less important, and in official language plus English where
more important. It is claimed that some signs in big cities are
English-only but I haven't yet seen one.

There is a dominant group in the country that says: Let us use English
for our "name" tags, and put the official language in name:xx (where xx
is the language code). This is relatively unusual for OSM, but it seems
to be the current consensus in the community. Some of them also request
that changeset discussions should be had in English instead of the
official language. Just like in many other countries, OSM was first
adopted by people at or involved with universities and hence used to
English, so the decision came lightly.

Parts of the discussion hinge on not all IT systems properly supporting
the special characters needed for the official language; but the main
argument brought up again and again by the proponents is that there are
many people from aid agencies and NGOs contributing data to OSM or using
data from OSM in that country, and the data was of lesser use (or even
useless) to them if name tags were in the official language. (This
reasoning is also used for the request to hold changeset discussions in
English.)

We have been told by the pro-English-name group:


as the major user & contributors to the local repository are the aid agencies 
like UN, MSF, Red Cross/Red Crescent eventually they are also facing problem while 
using the data ... We have been reported a recent case were WFP was unable to use 
the data due to this reason. ... Aid agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent have run 
many projects to map large portions of the country and given those data to OSM, 
which makes them big contributors and users of the OSM data. But this data becomes 
useless if all `name` tags are replaced with [local language] ... The Humanitarian 
OpenStreetMap Team (HOT) made a map for disaster response that is available in OSM 
main site as an additional layer, which also can't render [local language]. And 
that makes it a challenge in times of disaster response.

Of course, the pro-local-name group feels stymied by the request to use
English; they feel this is an sign that the map is not "their" map but
someone else's and that requesting English changeset discussions
practically excludes large parts of the population.

This is an issue that ultimately the local community must solve for
itself. But it seems to be that there might be a danger of favouring
the comfort of international contributors and NGOs over that of the
local population - in a line of thought that goes "the map in our
country gains more if we can keep these NGOs interested by using
English, than if we attract the less-well-English speaking citizens of
our country".

I hope that there might be people from the organisations mentioned (UN,
MSF, Red Cross/Red Crescent, WFP, HOT) on this list who can tell me if
their organisations have policies or a general approach towards issues
like this. Is this a thing, projects hinging on whether the locals are
willing to deal in English? Or is "we have to use English to favour our
international partners" a red herring?

Bye
Frederik



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[HOT] Mapping highways runs on from JOSM paint styles

[John Whelan]

Something to think about.  The tasking manager works quite well for 
small areas but when the tiles get too large then OSM balks at the 
download size.


What I have been doing recently is downloading an entire country, 
cutting it up into chunks with OSMconvert then loading it into JOSM with 
lots of memory.


It works very well.  I can pick up all the highway=road in one shot, 
drop them into a todo list then correct them one at a time. I have a 
script that picks up duplicate buildings so the second can be deleted 
again scrolling through them one at a time.


The other thing I can do and have been doing is to scroll through the 
chunks looking for unmapped settlements using  and 
I've added a few missing settlement in.  However when I do this in order 
to keep scrolling in a straight line I don't always add in connecting 
highways.


If the country download is less than a week old normally I don't get any 
conflicts.  If I do then the next download and search for crossing 
highways or ways usually picks them out to be cleaned up.


Now I have an experienced mapper who is interested in connecting up the 
settlements but they are running on a Mac so as far as I know OSMconvert 
isn't available nor are my .bat files for creating chunks or loading 
JOSM up with lots of memory.


I have created a much smaller chunk for him to play with and hopefully 
that will work.


But any other suggestions?

Can we come up with a more generalised solution?

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] JOSM paint styles

[john whelan]

Thank you.

That was suggested by Andrew and works well.

Cheerio John


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 12:17 AM Claire Halleux, 
wrote:

> You could activate a filter in JOSM to hide the trees while mapping.
>
> Claire
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 12:17 AM john whelan  wrote:
>
>> I'm happy with HDM but if possible I'd like it not to display tree
>> icons.  They're visually getting in the way when I'm mapping highways.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks John
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[HOT] JOSM paint styles

[john whelan]

I'm happy with HDM but if possible I'd like it not to display tree icons.
They're visually getting in the way when I'm mapping highways.

Any suggestions?

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] building=yes tags removed by new mapper about a month ago.

[John Whelan]

I think  the Mali side of things is under control so hopefully we can 
forget about him.


Cheerio John

Pierre Béland wrote on 2019-07-05 11:45 AM:

Relation Le Niger is back
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1202937

Since he did not edit a lot This Overpass query can extract all the 
objects last edited by this contributor.  It seems to be all in Mali.


http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Kvd


Pierre


Le jeudi 4 juillet 2019 19 h 11 min 08 s UTC−4, Pierre Béland 
 a écrit :



Using JOSM to undelete, I downloaded the previous version 69 of the 
relation and I tried send the data, accept to synchronize the data for 
conflict resolution.  But the synchronized data is not added to the 
the conflict panel for conflict resolution.



Pierre


Le jeudi 4 juillet 2019 13 h 40 min 14 s UTC−4, john whelan 
 a écrit :



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https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/70916705

So far I've retagged some 750 buildings in different areas in Mali but 
the changeset covers a lot of ground and a number of countries so it 
might be nice for someone to have a look at what has happened.


The mapper has made no reply to a query.

Cheerio John


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Re: [HOT] building=yes tags removed by new mapper about a month ago.

[john whelan]

Looking more closely at the information Franz has provided he has basically
only mapped in Mali and I'm happy I can pick out any buildings he has
untagged in Mali over the next few weeks.  I raised the matter more because
I'm aware that some NGOs depend on building=yes tags for various reasons so
thought to highlight the need to just double check any areas that looked
suspiciously low.

The river Relationship is different.  I would support reverting the
changeset(s) that did this to get the relationship back.

The others I leave the decision to those with more expertise than I have in
reverting changesets.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 04:12, Frans Schutz  wrote:

> We know a little bit more about this Tim Schepan
>
> take a look here
>
> http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?TimSchepan
>
> and here
>
>
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-suspicious?uid=9551821#10/15.2285/-11.6558
>
> He did not map so much
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TimSchepan/history#map=6/10.743/-2.598
>
> Will it be helpfull to revert his changesets ?
>
>
> best regards
>
> Frans
> Op 4-7-2019 om 23:43 schreef Victor Sunday:
>
> 1.What else can be done to track mappers like this?Do we have any tool
> that could provide the location of such mapper at the point of mapping?
> 2.With this kind of problem,I think its also necessary to make the profile
> completion of newbies signing up to OSM mandatory.maybe providing questions
> such as?
> Do you already belong to local OSM community?if yes,provide name and
> location
> how else can we reach you?phone no?..
>
> We need to keep effective track of new OSM mappers so we handle or prevent
> this kind of problem.The mappers's username:TimSchepan has no other info
> about his/her profile.
> Thanks @ John for the great job you re doing.
> Victor N.Sunday
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 7:41 PM Greg Rose via HOT 
> wrote:
>
>> Looks like he deleted the master relation for the Niger River as well.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1202937/history
>>
>> Uggh.
>>
>> GR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, July 4, 2019, 10:39:38 AM PDT, john whelan <
>> jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/70916705
>>
>> So far I've retagged some 750 buildings in different areas in Mali but
>> the changeset covers a lot of ground and a number of countries so it might
>> be nice for someone to have a look at what has happened.
>>
>> The mapper has made no reply to a query.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>> ___
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>>
>
> ___
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>
> --
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>
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[HOT] building=yes tags removed by new mapper about a month ago.

[john whelan]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/70916705

So far I've retagged some 750 buildings in different areas in Mali but the
changeset covers a lot of ground and a number of countries so it might be
nice for someone to have a look at what has happened.

The mapper has made no reply to a query.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] [OSM-talk] Mali

[john whelan]

I think the concerns are more to do with how do we clean it up.

The first major concern is  "Working for a mapping project with Apple."
the concern here is paid mappers and the quality of their work.

The second is there are a fair number of imports of varying quality.  Most
schools I suspect are fairly accurate but it would be nice to tie the node
to a building or an area.  Some hospitals are very definitely wrong the
node is in the middle of nowhere and yes I have checked different imagery.
This really needs local knowledge to sort out.

Much of it is HOT, highways that are mapped to the edge of the task manager
tile.  So one highway section gets mapped as track, another as
unclassified, another as path, another as tertiary as different mappers put
heir own interpretation of what the tag should be.

If some nice person could come up with an overpass that picked out large
buildings in Africa that should pick out the villages tagged as buildings.

For paid mappers I think we need a code of conduct.

I think there is sufficient infrastructure in Africa three days for local
mappers.  Smartphones are becoming more common and so is an Internet
connection albeit driven by social media.

Can we build on this?  Schools need to communicate with parents and other
schools.  This sort of implies a postal service which in turn implies names
on streets and house numbers.

My impression is there would be an economic advantage, larger cities
already have street names.  Could someone do a PhD in the subject which
might well mean a bit more government.  My personal view is some things are
best done by governments.  Highways for example.

By the way some mappers seem to be non HOT so if we can pick them out and
support them a percentage may well be local.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 11:24, Andrew Hain 
wrote:

> Is there any sign of mappers being part of an organised activity or of
> someone having encouraged them to contribute?
>
> --
> Andrew
> ------
> *From:* John Whelan 
> *Sent:* 29 June 2019 23:49
> *To:* t...@openstreetmap.org
> *Cc:* Pierre Béland via HOT
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Mali
>
> I've been going over Mali adding in missing villages and hamlets working
> in the southern and eastern part of Mali and cleaning up as I go.  Adding
> nodes to highways that cross but have no nodes, adding tags to untagged
> ways etc.  I even try to make sure each village has one highway at least
> leading to it.
>
> However as I work west I'm coming across areas that have lots of buildings
> and lots of errors.  I've zapped more than a few hundred duplicate
> buildings.  I confess I have not put a comment on every changeset
> especially when the mapper has less than 30 edits.  I'm seeing three
> buildings mapped on top of each other by the same mapper.  One is untagged
> and its not just once.  Interestingly some of the changesets are tagged
> "untangling the spaghetti" and I have sympathy with that mapper.
>
> In particular I'm seeing whole villages marked as a single building=yes,
> villages with highways that don't meet in the middle.  Villages connected
> by tracks which doesn't match up with the African Highway wiki page.
>
> Most errors are mapped by mappers with not that much experience.  The
> buildings in some ways are a nuisance as they both seem to be mapped from
> different imagery so often have been mapped crossing highways etc but the
> other problem is they fill the map so much so other features are difficult
> to spot like highways that don't quite meet.
>
> Are there any local Mali mappers around to chat with to see if we can get
> something organised?  In particular we need the highway classification
> sorting out.  The African highway wiki is fine as far as it goes but
> something connecting a village to a highway comes out as unclassified
> especially if there are square roofs in the village.  In order to
> differentiate the highways that these connect to that connect a number of
> villages probably should be tertiary and the ones that connect towns and
> major villages probably something else.
>
> However I'd be much more comfortable with some local mappers making these
> calls.
>
> I'm not sure quite what to do.  It needs a more organized approach.  An
> Apple mapper has been in demoting highway=tertiary to unclassified and yes
> we did have a conversation however I'm fairly certain they are working
> remotely from imagery.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
>
> --
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[HOT] Mali

[John Whelan]

I've been going over Mali adding in missing villages and hamlets working 
in the southern and eastern part of Mali and cleaning up as I go. Adding 
nodes to highways that cross but have no nodes, adding tags to untagged 
ways etc.  I even try to make sure each village has one highway at least 
leading to it.


However as I work west I'm coming across areas that have lots of 
buildings and lots of errors.  I've zapped more than a few hundred 
duplicate buildings.  I confess I have not put a comment on every 
changeset especially when the mapper has less than 30 edits.  I'm seeing 
three buildings mapped on top of each other by the same mapper.  One is 
untagged and its not just once.  Interestingly some of the changesets 
are tagged "untangling the spaghetti" and I have sympathy with that mapper.


In particular I'm seeing whole villages marked as a single building=yes, 
villages with highways that don't meet in the middle.  Villages 
connected by tracks which doesn't match up with the African Highway wiki 
page.


Most errors are mapped by mappers with not that much experience.  The 
buildings in some ways are a nuisance as they both seem to be mapped 
from different imagery so often have been mapped crossing highways etc 
but the other problem is they fill the map so much so other features are 
difficult to spot like highways that don't quite meet.


Are there any local Mali mappers around to chat with to see if we can 
get something organised?  In particular we need the highway 
classification sorting out.  The African highway wiki is fine as far as 
it goes but something connecting a village to a highway comes out as 
unclassified especially if there are square roofs in the village.  In 
order to differentiate the highways that these connect to that connect a 
number of villages probably should be tertiary and the ones that connect 
towns and major villages probably something else.


However I'd be much more comfortable with some local mappers making 
these calls.


I'm not sure quite what to do.  It needs a more organized approach.  An 
Apple mapper has been in demoting highway=tertiary to unclassified and 
yes we did have a conversation however I'm fairly certain they are 
working remotely from imagery.


Thoughts?

Thanks John

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Re: [HOT] #ValidationFriday - June 7

[john whelan]

If you catch the problems early enough then the mapper gets both feedback
and corrected.  Experimentally the impact drops off very quickly.  So catch
them within the hour and they change how they map and usually map a bit
more.  After a week it's not worth the effort of giving feedback.

>From a practical point of view there are tools that can be used to clean up
large areas at a time without using the task manager.  Downloading a chunk
of OSM then running a script to detect duplicate buildings means you can
cover an entire country very quickly the same is true for highway=road
name=Hameau, crossing highways, untagged ways etc.   Scrolling through the
downloaded data with JOSM  can pick up unmapped
settlements, unconnected highways, and other oddites.  Don't delete
anything before redownloading the small area first to make sure you have
exactly what is on the live map.

Validating mapping that is three months old just so the box gets ticked
seems a worthless exercise to me but if you really want to waste time and
put people off validating then ask them to validate buildings.  It can take
two clicks in JOSM to draw a building with the buildings_tool plugin.  It
takes a lot longer to correct each misshaped building.  HOT needs to use a
building tool for mapping.  If you must use iD then spend some money and
get it added to iD.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 08:07, Matthew Gibb  wrote:

> Hi Jean-Marc,
>
> Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
>
> I agree with:
>
> > the further upstream the quality assurance, the cheaper it is. I feel
> that an onboarding environment (both technical and social) that glorifies
> quality rather than quantity might be a step in that direction.
>
> There are a whole host of steps that can and are being taken: from
> improved project manager onboarding, ensuring validation plans like you
> mentioned, and improvements to the tasking manager.
>
> To your point, I agree that feedback to a mapper on a project that hasn't
> been touched in a year will have no impact on a new (at that point) mapper
> who hasn't seen it, but if there happened to be lower quality data there,
> there's still a benefit to making sure it's addressed and improved.
>
> I think most would agree that there's not a one-size-fits-all solution,
> encouraging some more mappers to take a crack at validation if they haven't
> before is a piece of the puzzle though.
>
> Thanks for joining the conversation.
>
> Matt
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:27 AM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>
>> On 2019-06-07 04:52, Matthew Gibb wrote:
>>
>> > - Validate! Simply find a project and dive in!
>>
>> While http://www.missingmaps.org/validate/ and
>>
>> http://www.missingmaps.org/assets/downloads/MissingMaps_validation_josm_en.pdf
>> offer practical instructions on how to begin about the validation
>> business, I feel a gap in guidance on what happens after invalidation. The
>> advice about how to express constructive criticism in comments is a good
>> start, but then what ? Even the Organised Editing guidelines only mention
>> "_plans for a "post-event clean up" to validate edits,
>> especially if the activity introduces new contributors to
>> OpenStreetMap_" but omit details.
>>
>> The contributor is an ephemeral drive-by account set for a mapathon, the
>> contributor isn't aware of his Openstreeetmap inbox, the contributor
>> doesn't care that much about quality, the contributor understands that his
>> changeset doesn't satisfy quality expectations but has no idea how to
>> proceed... There are many reasons but the common result is that a
>> validation comment will lead to no action at all: most contributors of bad
>> data do not clean-up after themselves.
>>
>> Some projects, such as
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities/Trains_of_Botswana_mapathon
>> have clear plans: _"A few days after the event, the core team will look at
>> the common QA tools (OSMI, Osmose, Keepright) to repair anything that
>> might have slipped through the cracks_" - but foisting janitorial
>> responsibilities upon experts doesn't scale: as much as some enjoy
>> strolling in the garden and pulling the occasional weed, it is not a
>> popular hobby. Worse, those rare resources spent correcting bad data may
>> easily make the net value negative.
>>
>> I do not have a solution, but I wish to stress one observation: the
>> further upstream the quality assurance, the cheaper it is. I feel that an
>> onboarding environment (both technical and social) that glorifies quality
>> rather than quantity might be a step in that
>> direction.___
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>>
>
>
> --
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> mjng...@gmail.com
> (518) 791-8505
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Re: [HOT] Name= Piste rurale in Mali

[john whelan]

I like this approach.  It at least preserves information.

Thanks John

On Wed, May 22, 2019, 6:38 PM Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Move them into the description key. This retains the information and might
> get used by renders.
>
> On 22/05/19 23:49, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
>
> "Piste rurale" (better singular "pista rurale") cannot be a reference,
> since is a common name, which in italian simply means rural track/path.
>
> IMHO such tag should be removed
>
> Il mer 22 mag 2019, 15:00 john whelan  ha scritto:
>
>> and I've seen it in other African countries.
>>
>> Obviously it is not a valid name for a highway but how should it be
>> tagged if tagged at all?
>>
>> Some are tagged ref=Piste rurale
>>
>> Thoughts
>>
>> Thanks John
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[HOT] Name= Piste rurale in Mali

[john whelan]

and I've seen it in other African countries.

Obviously it is not a valid name for a highway but how should it be tagged
if tagged at all?

Some are tagged ref=Piste rurale

Thoughts

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Re: [HOT] Thank you from MSF!

[john whelan]

Generally speaking HOT mappers are armchair mappers so what they map is
what they see on a satellite image.  Most instructions these days say tag
highways between settlements as unclassified.  There are some old mappings
that show highway=track for these although over time these are being
retagged.

Look through the African highway wiki and see if you can align what you'd
like with what is there.  Now think it terms of a database.  What is in the
database is not directly viewable.  However renders such as maperitive for
example has rules so that if it says Tertiary in the database it can be
displayed as district.

Generally speaking highway tags above unclassified are left alone so if you
retag to the tag you think aligns then it will probably stay tagged that
way.  I've probably retagged more highways in Africa than anyone retagging
highway=road etc.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 12:59, Kevin McPherson 
wrote:

> Dear all, I am new to this HOT interface on OSM, but joined last week, and
> interested in road classification in OSM. This is my first posting, and
> first time I have engaged with anyone on OSM, so am still getting up to
> speed.
>
> "Road Classification" is an important topic for roads agencies, it helps
> define the funding and prioritisation for development and maintenance of
> the road network in a country.
>
> With regards to OSM, one issue is that the  tag in OSM is never
> quite the same as the official definition of the country. For example, the
> highway tag:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
>
> uses "Motorway", "Trunk", "Primary", "Secondary" etc. while a national
> roads agency might use other terminology such as "Main", "District",
> "Local" etc.
>
> What this means is that the road network classification in OSM is never
> quite the same as that used by the Roads Agency, and there are
> discrepancies between the "official" data of the roads agency, and the OSM
> definition. This causes confusion to anyone who wants accurate mapping.
>
> As part of my work, I am trying to encourage Roads Agencies to review OSM
> mapping, to compare with their official definitions, and to update OSM
> based on their own records. However, the differences in the classification
> terminologies are a barrier to this. Every country potentially has a
> different classification system. We have been discussing internally that an
> extra "layer" on top of OSM might be a way forward, but that is an overhead
> and requires extra cost and administration.
>
> Would be grateful for anyone's views on this.
>
> Regards, Kevin McPherson
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 3:34:19 PM GMT+1, Ralf Bernhardt <
> raa...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
> My point this time is not the classification of a few roads. What I learn
> from this, is that our data is processed and reviewed again. If a mapping
> error is detected by local staff, it will most likely only be reported to
> their own mapping department. It will also only be fixed locally. We as
> mappers or validators will never learn from this process. All errors will
> remain in the OSM Database. That might be understandable in an emergency
> situation like now.  But without direct feedback from map users we will
> never improve. We should also demand that more local knowledge will be
> shared with OSM. A simple thank you is not enough.
>
> Ralf
> On 06.04.19 13:29, John Whelan wrote:
>
> There is another wiki guide
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>
> both get updated from time to time.  As a general rule of thumb I tag
> highways between settlements as unclassified not track, I leave it to the
> local mappers to say if it is a higher classification.  Occasionally I'll
> tag as high as tertiary. Normally I leave the tags alone but have been
> known to retag motorways between two small settlements as unclassified.
>
> I think step one is to get something mapped.  Step two is correct it and
> with lots of new mappers with different ideas we'll always see some
> problems.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> Frans Schutz wrote on 2019-04-06 6:27 AM:
>
> Hello Ralf
>
> you pinpoint to a situation which is not always clear.
> First of all. we ty to keep ourselves to the East African Highway tagging
> wiki
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/East_Africa_Tagging_Guidelines
>
> Different mappers judge different how to tag a highway. Out of my own
> experience lots of mappers (and validators) struggle with how to tag a
> highway.  Looking to the importance, the routing, and the width of the
> highway, which is hard to measure from a satellite image, we have to
> decide. A big number of

Re: [HOT] Thank you from MSF!

[John Whelan]

There is another wiki guide

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

both get updated from time to time.  As a general rule of thumb I tag 
highways between settlements as unclassified not track, I leave it to 
the local mappers to say if it is a higher classification.  Occasionally 
I'll tag as high as tertiary. Normally I leave the tags alone but have 
been known to retag motorways between two small settlements as unclassified.


I think step one is to get something mapped.  Step two is correct it and 
with lots of new mappers with different ideas we'll always see some 
problems.


Cheerio John

Frans Schutz wrote on 2019-04-06 6:27 AM:

Hello Ralf

you pinpoint to a situation which is not always clear.
First of all. we ty to keep ourselves to the East African Highway 
tagging wiki

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/East_Africa_Tagging_Guidelines

Different mappers judge different how to tag a highway. Out of my own 
experience lots of mappers (and validators) struggle with how to tag a 
highway.  Looking to the importance, the routing, and the width of the 
highway, which is hard to measure from a satellite image, we have to 
decide. A big number of new mappers are joining us and have different 
ideas (nor no idea at all) how to tag a highway. I've seen taggings as 
secondary highway as a connection to 2 hamlets and so on. So we try to 
tag as good as possible, but often it is a (calculated)guess which tag 
is relevant. Take also in account that there is a huge time pressure 
on these disaster mapping projects, so sometimes you accept the 
tagging as they were made. When there is no time pressure you can take 
a look to each highway and decide.

I hope you get an understanding how we have to deal with this subject.
Best regards
Frans Schutz
Validator



Op 5-4-2019 om 20:10 schreef Ralf Bernhardt:

Interesting when compared to the openstreetmap data.

There are many POIs I would like to see on Openstreetmap too, also
boundarys and place names.

I also noticed a different tagging scheme: Car, Moto and Foot. I would
guess that Roads not passable for a car but by foot and moto should be
highway=path in OSM.

But most of them are still tagged as unclassified or residential. Is
there a reason for that or will you change them later?

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Re: [HOT] NB: Organised Editing Guidelines | Re: Final Request: Volunteers Needed for Global Mapathons!

[john whelan]

To draw a rectangular building in line with another takes two clicks in
JOSM using the buildings_tool plugin.  Correctly labelled and square.

To correct a building drawn in iD that is untagged and the wrong shape
takes considerably more effort and time when validating.

If you catch the mapper early then you end up with fewer buildings to
correct.  If they map say five buildings in a mapathon that's not too bad
but some map a couple of dozen and come back to map a couple of dozen more
and that becomes a problem.

I've taken new mappers in a mapathon and just shown them the buildings_tool
they did fine and mapped fifty buildings each easily.  The buildings even
passed Pierre's guidelines.

At the back of my mind is the suspicion that for some charities engagement
is important and a mapathon might well be seen as engaging with potential
donors.

I don't think there are any simple answers.  Many of the points Emmor
mentioned are valid but there is to my mind a justification for spending
time with students but a problem can be teachers who have little experience
with OSM.

Cheerio John


On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 10:19 AM Rebecca Firth, 
wrote:

> Hiya,
>
> Just to follow up on this, the mapathons will be supporting Missing Maps
> projects. Validation activities to support the mapathons are already
> planned for the following week, as well as other activities such as
> training and this effort to find local experienced mappers who are
> interested in supporting the mapathons and providing additional OSM
> expertise & also contributing to improving quality.
>
> Missing Maps groups are very aware of OEG but are still working on how
> best to create documentation to fit best with both OEG suggestions and
> practicality. Much of this information is presently available in slightly
> different forms (such as the events list on the Missing Maps website),
> which need to be linked to/synthesized differently to fit with OEG. For
> additional information, HOT-specific work in progress towards the OEG is
> available at:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities/Humanitarian_OpenStreetMap_Team
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rebecca
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:59 PM Vao Matua  wrote:
>
>> Mikel et al,
>>
>> I agree that we need to change the way we do mapathons, the credibility
>> of HOT and OSM is at risk.
>> I have observed some characteristics about the OSM mapping through HOT
>> tasks being done by mapathons, primarily ones done by corporate sponsors.
>> It appears that often these efforts are not well led, or at least not led
>> by individuals that have a good level of OSM experience and skills. The
>> results are that very common mistakes and errors are created.
>> 1) The instructions are not followed, nor even apparently read.
>> 2) Individuals assume that a tile must be completely mapped and will add
>> features that are not called for in the instructions such as landuse or
>> highways.
>> 3) The tagging of features is not done based on OSM guidance, for example
>> a path in Tanzania is often tagged as "motorway", "primary", "secondary" or
>> other type of highway.
>> 4) Additional tags are added without local knowledge such as railroads,
>> traffic cameras, and businesses that are not apparent from imagery.
>> 5) Using iD with the default image (Bing) without changing the background
>> image leads people to mark a tile as "bad imagery" when the Digital Globe
>> or Esri imagery in that location is fine.
>> 6) Sometimes mappers will assume that OSM is a game like Sim City or
>> Minecraft and create their own imaginary features
>> 7) One characteristic of many of these mappers is an apparent hurried to
>> try to finish a tile. The buildings are over-generalized by either
>> combining buildings, creating polygons much larger than the actual
>> building, often the shapes are very crude and are not carefully formed with
>> right angles, many buildings are skipped or overlooked, many are
>> overlapping with other buildings or roads, and in many cases create
>> self-intersecting polygons
>> 8) Once a mapper starts with these bad habits the habits are picked up by
>> others working at the same time which expands the problems
>> 9) It appears that after a small number of edit sessions the mappers from
>> these efforts do not continue with other HOT tasks, and presumably go a way
>> thinking they have done their feel-good-humanitarian-service.
>>
>> The net result of these mapathons is that rather than contributing to the
>> completion of mapping in an area, there is actually more work required to
>> clean up the messes than there would have been to properly trace the
>> features from scratch.
>> I do not believe this is a validation issue, but is an issue with
>> leadership. The individual organizing the event for the corporation or
>> group may have little or no OSM experience, and have been giving the task
>> of setting up the mapathon  and do not have the skills or expertise to help
>> newbie mappers.  I 

Re: [HOT] Questionnaire

[john whelan]

If you look at the survey it asks the question after two others about you
education level and "In what department did you complete your education?"

Which sort of implies an expectation that you have some sort of University
degree in something relevant.

Then look at the answers you need to select from

I have no experiences
I have little experiences
I think, It is quite good
I have very good experiences
I'm a professional
It doesn't make sense to me.  Which means in turn different people will
interpret the question differently.  Your interpretation is perfectly valid
but it isn't the only one especially when you take into account the
suggested answers and the questions that came before it.

I'm a professional racing driver, I'm professional.   I have really good
experiences down the pub wiv me mates each Friday night downing six pints
of beer each, how is that relevant to OSM mapping?  Well we did an
impromptu mapathon for HOT last Friday I suppose.

Then you get into the age of people.  These days around 40+% of the
population go to University, fifty years ago in the UK it was 5%.  You're
comparing apples to oranges if you compare the number with university
degrees.

There is a lot more to running a useful survey than people think.  You need
to do a trial and see if your understanding is the same as others and the
sample selection is critical.  If you get a group of paid mappers replying,
they do do a lot of mapping, you probably won't find many PhD's in your
responses.

"How many changes have you made to OSM since that time?"  the OSM term is
edits and is shown on your profile.  Using the same terms lessens the
confusion.

There is also the concept of respondent burden.  The person running the
survey is only one, but OSM contributions by this that and the other is a
very popular subject for a thesis

Cheerio John

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 19:25, Pat Tressel  wrote:

>
>
> 6. What do you think about your professionalism in terms of skills needed
>> for OSM?
>>
>
> Without having seen the survey, I'd say that means:
>
> How do you rate your skill level in OSM mapping?
>
> That is, sounds like it is asking you to self-evaluate.  E.g.:  I'm just
> starting out.  I've been around a while and have done multiple types of
> mapping.  All the way to...  I can answer any how-to question and have
> memorized all the tagging conventions for Africa.  :D  :D  :D
>
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Re: [HOT] Questionnaire

[John Whelan]

6. What do you think about your professionalism in terms of skills 
needed for OSM?* I'm a native English speaker and I haven't the foggiest 
what you're on about.


Have a look at streetcomplete or attend a HOT mapathon in Africa then 
rethink this question.  I suggest you do some mapping in OSM first.  
Your survey appears to make a number of assumptions about people who 
contribute to the project .


Cheerio John

Daniela Šedlárová wrote on 2019-03-21 4:24 PM:
Good day, please fill out the questionnaire for my thesis. The 
questionnaire concerns contributors to the OSM project. It takes you 
about 10 minutes.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdSZIjLltmnYjQ40hkX6lto5-rydEOxPGVBf8rBlcgA4S2kXg/viewform?usp=sf_link 


Thanks for your time! Sincerely Daniela
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Re: [HOT] Tracking vehicle movements

[John Whelan]

In Windows you can use a script to copy the files, compress them and 
send them.


Android should have something equivalent.  If not Microsoft Visual 
Studio 2017 can build something that will run on android.


We seem to be forever seeing requests from students to write software 
for OSM and HOT as a project.


This one is a natural.

Enabling GPS tracking is heavy on a battery life but you can buy power 
packs quite cheaply to extend the life.  I wouldn't connect it to the 
car battery, the voltage fluctuates to much and it will shorten the 
smartphone life down.


So basically you want a program that will grab the GPS tracks every x 
minutes and compress them.  Technically zip is fine but the problem with 
zips is they can carry malware so use something else and gmail won't 
accept them anyway.


Then it should just email these back to the server. There should be an 
API to allow the software to write to something like Gmail on the 
smartphone.


When gmail finds a connection it will send the messages home.  No 
fingers needed other than to connect to Wifi for gmail.  This one is the 
simplest.


https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/sending has got the basics.

The other way is to use the signal that the phone uses to connect to the 
mast.  There are 140 / 160 characters at the end of the packet which are 
unused.  This is the basis of SMS text messaging.  In Europe, North 
America phone plans often come with unlimited SMS text messaging, Africa 
maybe different.  The advantage is you can collect the data in real 
time.  The disadvantage is the store and forward method of email is a 
bit more robust.


There are SMS APIs that will run on a smartphone but my impression is 
these vary according to the phone so an SMS based solution that ran on 
any phone might be more difficult to build but someone who knows more 
about SMS might be in a better position to sort something out.


Cheerio John

Jorieke Vyncke wrote on 2019-01-09 10:48 AM:

Thanks a lot for all your suggestions!
I suppose easy to use is core, so options with manually copying traces 
is probably not the best solution.
However I will forward all your suggestions to Last, and will leave it 
up to him to decide what is the best option for them on the ground!


If there are more ideas, they still welcome :)
Thanks a lot!

Jorieke

Op wo 9 jan. 2019 om 14:26 schreef Pierre Béland >:


Hi Jorieke

There are small vehicule gps logger, some very precise reading
various satellite networks. I tried a Columbus. It did work very
well but could not replace the battery.

Search simply for vehicule gps logger. This Ebay link show various
models, some with an USB connection and / or sim card.
https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_nkw=vehicle+gps+data+logger

regard



Pierre







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Re: [HOT] Slack closing "suspect" accounts with connections to certain countries.

[John Whelan]

If you have visited certain countries you maybe at risk.  For example 
many Canadians have been having legal vacations in Cuba for years but 
according to the article Slack has closed an account of someone who 
legally visited Cuba.


Cheerio John

Jorieke Vyncke wrote on 2018-12-27 5:44 AM:

Hi John,
Thanks for bringing this up.
Does this mean we are excluding by default certain people by using Slack?
Cheers,
Jorieke

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 00:45 schreef John Whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>>:


You may lose access to messages and files.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46642760

Just something to be aware of.

Cheerio John

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[HOT] Slack closing "suspect" accounts with connections to certain countries.

[John Whelan]

You may lose access to messages and files.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46642760

Just something to be aware of.

Cheerio John

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Re: [HOT] Getting the Bounding Boxes of the Validated Regions

[John Whelan]

I've done a lot of validation in HOT.  Some is done by people with 
little experience so I don't think validated tiles would be much use to 
you.  Also be aware that some imagery can be three years out of date so 
the imagery can vary.  The sort of problems you'll run into are much of 
the HOT mapping is done by inexperienced mappers using iD and the 
buildings are more approximate than you might like especially on size 
and shape.  It takes four times longer to correct a building than to 
remap it so as a rule of thumb validators tend to stay away from 
projects with buildings.


Having said that have a look at the hot projects for one that is 100% 
complete and 100% validated.  You should be able to work out the 
coordinates from the project and if you are lucky it should also give 
you the imagery used when mapping for HOT.  Beware this OpenStreetMap 
and some mapping may have taken place on the ground showing buildings 
etc that are not on the image.


You might be better off working with an experienced mapper who can both 
map and check the sources.  They should also check for duplicates, there 
are tools available.  I suggest an area that hasn't been mapped before 
and map it correctly with an experienced mapper using JOSM and things 
like the building_tool plugin.


If you're just trying the algorithm out Ottawa in Canada has accurate 
buildings in OpenStreetMap.


Have fun

Cheerio John

Georgy Potapov wrote on 2018-11-20 9:25 AM:

Dear John,

the question isn't about imports. Seems guys are preparing dataset to 
train and test models and they need to download data that's been 
already validated within Missing Maps,  as a "ground truth".
Is there a way to get the precise coordinates of the areas where this 
job is done or projected to be done?
Me too was asking if it makes sense to apply algorithm to detect 
damaged buildings on imagery to leverage the mapping speed in disaster 
affected areas?


All the best,
Georgy

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:29 PM john whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Essentially you are proposing an import.  There are OpenStreetMap
rules about how this should be done. It can be done, Microsoft has
released building outlines for the US which were created in this
manner but the import itself is being done in sections by
conventional mappers.

You will need the cooperation of the local mappers on the ground
and imports of dubious quality tend to get a fair chunk of flack. 
I would suggest you Google OSM imports before doing anything.

Cheerio John

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 10:47 pm Serkan Karakulak mailto:sk7...@nyu.edu> wrote:

Hi,
I am a graduate student in a Data Science program, and I
wanted to get in touch with you because me and my two other
friends are interested in working on a machine learning
project to map areas using their satellite images and produce
their labels. If we obtain a high accuracy, we thought it
could be of use to the hotosm and the missingmaps initiatives.

I have first heard about Missing Maps when I came across a
mapathlon event two years ago in Istanbul. We were in search
for a class project for one of our courses and I remembered
about the mapathlon event and we would be very happy if we
could contribute to the this wonderful initiative. There are
already some previous successful works on this subject, so we
are very hopeful that we could come up with an algorithm with
high accuracy.

In order to develop the model, we need to extract bounding
boxes of the validated tiles we see at hotosm. Then we will
extract the satellite images and their labels using the
label-maker API which is developed by DevSeed. Is there a
method to extract the coordinates of these validated tiles?

Thank you for your time and help.

Best,

Serkan
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Re: [HOT] Getting the Bounding Boxes of the Validated Regions

[john whelan]

Essentially you are proposing an import.  There are OpenStreetMap rules
about how this should be done.  It can be done, Microsoft has released
building outlines for the US which were created in this manner but the
import itself is being done in sections by conventional mappers.

You will need the cooperation of the local mappers on the ground and
imports of dubious quality tend to get a fair chunk of flack.  I would
suggest you Google OSM imports before doing anything.

Cheerio John

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 10:47 pm Serkan Karakulak  Hi,
> I am a graduate student in a Data Science program, and I wanted to get in
> touch with you because me and my two other friends are interested in
> working on a machine learning project to map areas using their satellite
> images and produce their labels. If we obtain a high accuracy, we thought
> it could be of use to the hotosm and the missingmaps initiatives.
>
> I have first heard about Missing Maps when I came across a mapathlon event
> two years ago in Istanbul. We were in search for a class project for one of
> our courses and I remembered about the mapathlon event and we would be very
> happy if we could contribute to the this wonderful initiative. There are
> already some previous successful works on this subject, so we are very
> hopeful that we could come up with an algorithm with high accuracy.
>
> In order to develop the model, we need to extract bounding boxes of the
> validated tiles we see at hotosm. Then we will extract the satellite images
> and their labels using the label-maker API which is developed by DevSeed.
> Is there a method to extract the coordinates of these validated tiles?
>
> Thank you for your time and help.
>
> Best,
>
> Serkan
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[HOT] software for counting buildings use it if you feel it might be useful otherwise just ignore it.

[John Whelan]

It was originally designed so that feedback could be given to mappers 
tagging buildings in a city without resorting to overpass and other more 
technical solutions.


It shows how many tags have been added and how rich they are.  It 
generates both list of tags used building= and other associated tags 
such as building:levels gives a count by each.


A CSV file is generated which means it is fairly simple to graph the 
data using a spreadsheet such as LibreOffice Calc.


https://www.jatws.org/openstreetmap/openstreetmap.html

It can be used to verify the correct tags have been used for example 
parts of Africa have many variations of Semi-Permanent for building and 
it might be useful for projects using on the ground mappers in cities.


Cheerio John
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[HOT] counting buildings - ( 2020 project ) - help please.

[john whelan]

One problems with this mapping project is it is difficult to see how many
have been mapped.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020

So I've been playing.  The .OSM data structure does not lend it self easily
to this sort of thing.  In particular you don't know when you read a line
in if you want to count it or not.  The critical thing is does the way
include building= if it does then we are interested in every tag even those
that have been read in previously.

I started following Bjenk's footsteps with R but realistically setting up
the environment and parsing the file in R isn't that user friendly.

So I dropped back to Visual Studio express which is free from Microsoft.
I've been working in the IDE environment and I have something that counts
ways at the moment.  Extending it to nodes is relatively simple once I have
the ways working correctly.

A very small sample output is below.


detached'  - 3
t2'  - 2
terraced'  - 1


addr:housenumber - 6
addr:street - 6
building:levels - 5
addr:postcode - 3
roof:shape - 1



I've just spotted that building types have an extra ' in the name.  The
Comma Separated Values (CSV) were working so they can be fed into a
spreadsheet or some sort of stats program and 'Real Soon Now'™ it will be
working once more.

The input is an .osm file so download and chop it up with OSMconvert64 to
give the area you are interested in. I have sample .bat files available
that do this.

What I need is someone who has use for the information to look it over and
give feedback.  Please contact me directly not through the group.

Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] Overpass and schools in Mali

[john whelan]

Converting them sounds good to me.

It the southern part of the country I've added a considerable number of
settlements and the schools were useful in identifying places where the
larger villages were likely to be so ut should be easier for someone local
to move the schools to the correct location.  However it could do with a
few more highways.

Cheerio John

On 31 August 2018 at 22:29, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On 2018-08-26 18:24, john whelan wrote:
>
> In Mali there appears to be an import of schools based on UNICEF data.
> amenity=school source=UNICEF
> [..]
>
>
> By the way, this import is quite bad. It does have a lot of attributes,
> but the basics are disappointing: position can be a couple kilometers from
> the actual location and ALL CAPS NAMES are irritating. Approximate
> positions are not always unacceptable, especially with a "fixme=approximate
> position" but they are not recorded as such and they are often so far from
> actual locations that no one bothers sorting them out. Opendatamali
> acknowledged my remarks (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/25474220)
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/25474220>but took no action. As
> for the ALL CAPS NAMES, opendatamali claimed three years ago (
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/25474402) that the ministry of
> education told them on the phone they are standard for information exchange
> - please, that is the ministry of education's problem not
> Openstreetmap's... After years of being irritated, I'm horribly tempted to
> convert them all to lowercase with uppercase first letter.
>
>
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Re: [HOT] Overpass and schools in Mali

[john whelan]

JOSM works fairly well.

Thanks John

On Sun, 26 Aug 2018, 1:03 pm Andrew Buck,  wrote:

> Yes, it is correct there should likely be residential areas nearby,
> maybe a few km for some of them.  My point was that simply doing an
> "inside" query is not enough.  I don't know that overpass is capable of
> returning schools that are *not* nearby residential areas, only inside.
> You can return schools that *are* nearby residential areas, or
> residential areas near schools, but as far as I know there is no way to
> query on the opposite.
>
>
> -AndrewBuck
>
>
> On 08/26/2018 12:00 PM, john whelan wrote:
> > But it does identify locations where there should be say 100 people
> living
> > within walking distance.
> >
> > I'm using search in JOSM currently and there are a fair number of
> villages
> > I've picked up by zooming into locations that have a school but the rest
> of
> > the map is totally blank.
> >
> > If I'm feeling nice I try to add in a connecting highway as well.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2018, 12:32 pm Andrew Buck, 
> wrote:
> >
> >> This won't actually give you useful data.  A signifigant number of the
> >> schools in Mali and elsewhere in Africa are not actually located in the
> >> town they serve, but rather about 1/2 km or so outside of the town, or
> >> about halfway between two or more towns. So a significant number
> >> actually shouldn't be in a residential area.
> >>
> >>
> >> -AndrewBuck
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 08/26/2018 11:24 AM, john whelan wrote:
> >>> One of the nice things about schools is they have pupils which implies
> >>> people living nearby.
> >>>
> >>> In Mali there appears to be an import of schools based on UNICEF data.
> >>> amenity=school source=UNICEF
> >>>
> >>> Could some nice person put together an overpass of any schools that are
> >> not
> >>> within a landuse=residential or place=village or town please?
> >>>
> >>> I can do a fair bit in JOSM but I suspect an overpass set of results
> >> which
> >>> could be imported into JOSM would help pick out the larger unmapped
> >>> villages.
> >>>
> >>> I suspect similar data might be available for other countries.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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Re: [HOT] Overpass and schools in Mali

[john whelan]

But it does identify locations where there should be say 100 people living
within walking distance.

I'm using search in JOSM currently and there are a fair number of villages
I've picked up by zooming into locations that have a school but the rest of
the map is totally blank.

If I'm feeling nice I try to add in a connecting highway as well.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 26 Aug 2018, 12:32 pm Andrew Buck,  wrote:

> This won't actually give you useful data.  A signifigant number of the
> schools in Mali and elsewhere in Africa are not actually located in the
> town they serve, but rather about 1/2 km or so outside of the town, or
> about halfway between two or more towns. So a significant number
> actually shouldn't be in a residential area.
>
>
> -AndrewBuck
>
>
>
>
> On 08/26/2018 11:24 AM, john whelan wrote:
> > One of the nice things about schools is they have pupils which implies
> > people living nearby.
> >
> > In Mali there appears to be an import of schools based on UNICEF data.
> > amenity=school source=UNICEF
> >
> > Could some nice person put together an overpass of any schools that are
> not
> > within a landuse=residential or place=village or town please?
> >
> > I can do a fair bit in JOSM but I suspect an overpass set of results
> which
> > could be imported into JOSM would help pick out the larger unmapped
> > villages.
> >
> > I suspect similar data might be available for other countries.
> >
> > Thanks John
> >
> >
> >
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[HOT] Overpass and schools in Mali

[john whelan]

One of the nice things about schools is they have pupils which implies
people living nearby.

In Mali there appears to be an import of schools based on UNICEF data.
amenity=school source=UNICEF

Could some nice person put together an overpass of any schools that are not
within a landuse=residential or place=village or town please?

I can do a fair bit in JOSM but I suspect an overpass set of results which
could be imported into JOSM would help pick out the larger unmapped
villages.

I suspect similar data might be available for other countries.

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] Open Location Code

[john whelan]

Agreed but in their complete absence OLC area codes can be a useful
substitute.

If you know how many coffee drinkers there are in a given OLC area code
then you can decide if its worth opening up a coffee shop.

Starbucks for example will do this sort of research before opening a new
store and pay for the information.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 8:26 PM Philippe Verdy  wrote:

> postcodes are certainly not equivalent as they are related to a
> distribution area and logistics, which is not based on a strict géographic
> grid but on access and population to desserve
>
> Le dim. 12 août 2018 à 20:46, john whelan  a
> écrit :
>
>> So you could use them as postcode equivalents.  Is any statistical data
>> available associated with an area?  Such as population etc?  The area used
>> to collect the data might be a better choice.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 1:20 pm Blake Girardot,  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For anyone that would like to visualize that the Open Location Code
>>> grid looks like, I took some screen shots of it overlayed with some
>>> imagery.
>>>
>>> The smallest squares in the examples each have a 10 character OLC
>>> number/letter code. You will notice like every grid, the real world is
>>> not on a grid and many structures are in more than one grid. (Every
>>> grid system has this problem).
>>>
>>> The next up larger size of square is the square for an 8 character OLC
>>> number/letter code. It obviously groups a lot more buildings together,
>>> almost the small village scale, but again, they will usually be part
>>> in two, just like a structure.
>>>
>>> Anyway, thought folks who like to see things visualized in some way to
>>> help understand them might benefit from looking at what exactly we are
>>> talking about.
>>>
>>> I would like to see a way to have a better, more informative grid in
>>> all our tools, so like a TMS layer or support in OpenLayers or leaflet
>>> or something. The grid is based on WGS84 degrees already so anything
>>> that helps draw a graticule can just be adapted to have different
>>> major lines and list the shortened OLC instead of the degrees.
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/status/1028689726088388609
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> blake
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> blake
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:55 PM, john whelan 
>>> wrote:
>>> > Open Location Code or Plus code is just a method of representing
>>> latitude
>>> > and longitude in a more human friendly way.
>>> >
>>> > It was originally created by Google but has been released under an open
>>> > licence.
>>> >
>>> > It is possible to set osmand to show coordinates as OLC.  This means
>>> it can
>>> > display the OLC code for any node or building in OpenStreetMap and the
>>> > displayed code can be copied to the clipboard.  No extra tagging is
>>> > necessary.
>>> >
>>> > OSMand will also accept an OLC code for searching purposes.
>>> >
>>> > It would seem likely that Nominatim will allow searching by OLC in the
>>> near
>>> > future.
>>> >
>>> > Translation is this allows us to give every dwelling in Africa etc its
>>> own
>>> > address.  It is not in itself a complete addressing solution since it
>>> > doesn't handle things like 2nd floor but it does at least take you to
>>> the
>>> > building.
>>> >
>>> > To make this work will require training material for example how to
>>> turn it
>>> > on in OSMand.  It is not turned on by default.
>>> >
>>> > Because it is calculated from the buildings's latitude and longitude
>>> it is
>>> > embedded in OSM and will not disappear.  It is stable so you can build
>>> on
>>> > it.
>>> >
>>> > Now you need to think about how it can be used and what additional
>>> resources
>>> > will be required to make full use of it.
>>> >
>>> > Cheerio John
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > HOT mailing list
>>> > HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Blake Girardot
>>> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
>>> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
>>> skype: jblakegirardot
>>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>
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Re: [HOT] Open Location Code

[john whelan]

So you could use them as postcode equivalents.  Is any statistical data
available associated with an area?  Such as population etc?  The area used
to collect the data might be a better choice.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 1:20 pm Blake Girardot,  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> For anyone that would like to visualize that the Open Location Code
> grid looks like, I took some screen shots of it overlayed with some
> imagery.
>
> The smallest squares in the examples each have a 10 character OLC
> number/letter code. You will notice like every grid, the real world is
> not on a grid and many structures are in more than one grid. (Every
> grid system has this problem).
>
> The next up larger size of square is the square for an 8 character OLC
> number/letter code. It obviously groups a lot more buildings together,
> almost the small village scale, but again, they will usually be part
> in two, just like a structure.
>
> Anyway, thought folks who like to see things visualized in some way to
> help understand them might benefit from looking at what exactly we are
> talking about.
>
> I would like to see a way to have a better, more informative grid in
> all our tools, so like a TMS layer or support in OpenLayers or leaflet
> or something. The grid is based on WGS84 degrees already so anything
> that helps draw a graticule can just be adapted to have different
> major lines and list the shortened OLC instead of the degrees.
>
> https://twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/status/1028689726088388609
>
> Cheers
> blake
>
> Cheers
> blake
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:55 PM, john whelan 
> wrote:
> > Open Location Code or Plus code is just a method of representing latitude
> > and longitude in a more human friendly way.
> >
> > It was originally created by Google but has been released under an open
> > licence.
> >
> > It is possible to set osmand to show coordinates as OLC.  This means it
> can
> > display the OLC code for any node or building in OpenStreetMap and the
> > displayed code can be copied to the clipboard.  No extra tagging is
> > necessary.
> >
> > OSMand will also accept an OLC code for searching purposes.
> >
> > It would seem likely that Nominatim will allow searching by OLC in the
> near
> > future.
> >
> > Translation is this allows us to give every dwelling in Africa etc its
> own
> > address.  It is not in itself a complete addressing solution since it
> > doesn't handle things like 2nd floor but it does at least take you to the
> > building.
> >
> > To make this work will require training material for example how to turn
> it
> > on in OSMand.  It is not turned on by default.
> >
> > Because it is calculated from the buildings's latitude and longitude it
> is
> > embedded in OSM and will not disappear.  It is stable so you can build on
> > it.
> >
> > Now you need to think about how it can be used and what additional
> resources
> > will be required to make full use of it.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > HOT mailing list
> > HOT@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> >
>
>
>
> --
> 
> Blake Girardot
> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
> skype: jblakegirardot
>
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Re: [HOT] Open Location Code

[john whelan]

Except we don't hold the z coordinate in the OSM database.

There are other addressing schemes such as three words but using the lat
and long for the address is much simpler.  Encoding it with OLC gives you
the advantage of a more human friendly looking address.

There are issues which have been discussed in OSM-talk about adding tags to
the database.

In a conventional house number street address you can expect that number 4
main street will be between 2 and 6.  Unfortunately if you have no street
names and no house numbers it gets more difficult to confirm you have the
correct address using anything but a lat / long based scheme.

Cheerio John

Cheerio John

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018, 6:52 pm Victor Sunday, 
wrote:

> Yes,every point on the surface of the earth is  already coded with x,y and
> z coordinates ,which to the lay man is imaginary lines of latitudes,
> longitudes and altitude.With the emerging  and advanced smart
> technology,its application maybe  represented  and accessible in various
> formats but the principles remains the same.
>
> I guess,we are on thesame page ?
>
> Victor
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> + 1 with John Whelan
>>
>> Every place already has an "address" simply called latitude, longitude.
>> The Open Location Code is simply another way of expressing that latitude,
>> longitude.
>>
>> If some platform wants to provide an interface between OSM data to Open
>> Location Code fine.
>> But I don't expect that the OSM data base will have anything other than
>> latitude, longitude inside it.
>>
>>
>> On 12/08/18 06:59, john whelan wrote:
>>
>> I think you have missed a major point.  You do not give anyone an OLC.
>> It is simply their lat and long encoded in letters.
>>
>> So every building in the world has a lat and long, it is its location.
>> This can be expressed as an OLC.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2018, 4:49 pm Blake Girardot,  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I appreciate your thoughtful and informative remarks as always here
>>> and on the osm-talk thread, especially about the Open Location Code
>>> discussion.
>>>
>>> I clearly generally agree they are not a perfect solution and I am not
>>> even sure we know all the possible use cases, but they are a very good
>>> option at the moment, open source, light weight, easy to implement in
>>> tools.
>>>
>>> But I must take exception to your paragraph here:
>>>
>>> > Translation is this allows us to give every dwelling in Africa etc its
>>> own
>>> > address.  It is not in itself a complete addressing solution since it
>>> > doesn't handle things like 2nd floor but it does at least take you to
>>> the
>>> > building.
>>>
>>> Trying out OLC in some local circumstances, driven from on the ground
>>> up in that location is fine. If they see a possible usefulness to
>>> them, by all means I will do everything I can to support them as they
>>> figure out if it is something of value to the local community.
>>>
>>> But the idea of giving every dwelling in Africa an address is not a
>>> good way to frame it. We are not giving anyone anything. If people
>>> wish to use these locally first, or operating locally I will help them
>>> to the best of my ability.
>>>
>>> But in no way do I feel we are or should be giving "every dwelling in
>>> Africa etc its own address" and I would like to make that clear from
>>> the start. This is a potential useful system that seems well suited to
>>> solve some use cases in some locations but must be really wanted by
>>> the local community and driven from the ground up, hopefully in
>>> conjunction with other local actors in the area.
>>>
>>> Cheers John,
>>> blake
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:55 PM, john whelan 
>>> wrote:
>>> > Open Location Code or Plus code is just a method of representing
>>> latitude
>>> > and longitude in a more human friendly way.
>>> >
>>> > It was originally created by Google but has been released under an open
>>> > licence.
>>> >
>>> > It is possible to set osmand to show coordinates as OLC.  This means
>>> it can
>>> > display the OLC code for any node or building in OpenStreetMap and the
>>> > displayed code can be copied to the clipboard.  No extra tagging is
>>> &

Re: [HOT] Open Location Code

[john whelan]

I think you have missed a major point.  You do not give anyone an OLC.  It
is simply their lat and long encoded in letters.

So every building in the world has a lat and long, it is its location.
This can be expressed as an OLC.

Cheerio John

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018, 4:49 pm Blake Girardot,  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> I appreciate your thoughtful and informative remarks as always here
> and on the osm-talk thread, especially about the Open Location Code
> discussion.
>
> I clearly generally agree they are not a perfect solution and I am not
> even sure we know all the possible use cases, but they are a very good
> option at the moment, open source, light weight, easy to implement in
> tools.
>
> But I must take exception to your paragraph here:
>
> > Translation is this allows us to give every dwelling in Africa etc its
> own
> > address.  It is not in itself a complete addressing solution since it
> > doesn't handle things like 2nd floor but it does at least take you to the
> > building.
>
> Trying out OLC in some local circumstances, driven from on the ground
> up in that location is fine. If they see a possible usefulness to
> them, by all means I will do everything I can to support them as they
> figure out if it is something of value to the local community.
>
> But the idea of giving every dwelling in Africa an address is not a
> good way to frame it. We are not giving anyone anything. If people
> wish to use these locally first, or operating locally I will help them
> to the best of my ability.
>
> But in no way do I feel we are or should be giving "every dwelling in
> Africa etc its own address" and I would like to make that clear from
> the start. This is a potential useful system that seems well suited to
> solve some use cases in some locations but must be really wanted by
> the local community and driven from the ground up, hopefully in
> conjunction with other local actors in the area.
>
> Cheers John,
> blake
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:55 PM, john whelan 
> wrote:
> > Open Location Code or Plus code is just a method of representing latitude
> > and longitude in a more human friendly way.
> >
> > It was originally created by Google but has been released under an open
> > licence.
> >
> > It is possible to set osmand to show coordinates as OLC.  This means it
> can
> > display the OLC code for any node or building in OpenStreetMap and the
> > displayed code can be copied to the clipboard.  No extra tagging is
> > necessary.
> >
> > OSMand will also accept an OLC code for searching purposes.
> >
> > It would seem likely that Nominatim will allow searching by OLC in the
> near
> > future.
> >
> > Translation is this allows us to give every dwelling in Africa etc its
> own
> > address.  It is not in itself a complete addressing solution since it
> > doesn't handle things like 2nd floor but it does at least take you to the
> > building.
> >
> > To make this work will require training material for example how to turn
> it
> > on in OSMand.  It is not turned on by default.
> >
> > Because it is calculated from the buildings's latitude and longitude it
> is
> > embedded in OSM and will not disappear.  It is stable so you can build on
> > it.
> >
> > Now you need to think about how it can be used and what additional
> resources
> > will be required to make full use of it.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > HOT mailing list
> > HOT@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> >
>
>
>
> --
> 
> Blake Girardot
> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
> skype: jblakegirardot
>
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[HOT] Open Location Code

[john whelan]

 Open Location Code or Plus code is just a method of representing latitude
and longitude in a more human friendly way.
It was originally created by Google but has been released under an open
licence.

It is possible to set osmand to show coordinates as OLC.  This means it can
display the OLC code for any node or building in OpenStreetMap and the
displayed code can be copied to the clipboard.  No extra tagging is
necessary.

OSMand will also accept an OLC code for searching purposes.

It would seem likely that Nominatim will allow searching by OLC in the near
future.

Translation is this allows us to give every dwelling in Africa etc its own
address.  It is not in itself a complete addressing solution since it
doesn't handle things like 2nd floor but it does at least take you to the
building.

To make this work will require training material for example how to turn it
on in OSMand.  It is not turned on by default.

Because it is calculated from the buildings's latitude and longitude it is
embedded in OSM and will not disappear.  It is stable so you can build on
it.

Now you need to think about how it can be used and what additional
resources will be required to make full use of it.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] Learning to Use Machine Learning - A learn along for folks who want to be using ML in their work.

[john whelan]

Of course the really nice thing to do would be to compare the new scanned
buildings with the
existing o
nes
then tag all the ones with an overlap where the old was shall we say twice
the size of the new.

It really could make a tremendous differ
ence to data quality especially if HOT ran a few clean up projects in the
worst areas.


Cheerio John

On 9 Aug 2018 11:32 am, "Dale Kunce"  wrote:

@Blake Girardot  Fantastic Job pulling together
all these resources for folks.

I'm really am excited for all the possibilities and time savings and better
data the machines will give us. However, with emphasis, I'm also excited by
the work that HOT is doing and has been doing to prepare for the machines.
To answer a lot of the questions will inevitably come up. For instance: How
will humans verify the results? What will a mapathon look like in 2 years?
Do we still need to trace X features? How do machines fit in with OSM
culture?

I believe firmly that OSM is best when a human is the one that makes the
final edit. I do see many workflows happening that will allow us to take
advantage of the great work that our corporate partners and community are
coming up with.

Looking forward to learning and working on these issues together.



On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:02 AM john whelan  wrote:

> One does hope that a manual check will be part of the process?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 9 August 2018 at 08:10, Blake Girardot  wrote:
>
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> In case you missed it, Dale Kunce tweeted this out yesterday:
>>
>> The day of Machine Learning and OSM/Humanitarian mapping reckoning is
>> getting closer. Very excited for the possibilities these new methods
>> have for @hotosm @RedCross. Next frontier is making HOT and
>> @TheMissingMaps more valuable than just a training dataset for the
>> machines.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/calimapnerd/status/1027275305440829440
>>
>> Toward that end, I have been watching and in some cases working with
>> various ML tool chains over the past 2 years and really, not having a
>> lot of luck with my level of skill and knowledge. I am a pretty
>> advanced sysadmin, comfortable on the command line, but understanding
>> the terminology and installations has been a bit beyond me.
>>
>> So if anyone is like me and sees all of these great tool chains and
>> would like to learn how to use them with your peers learning along
>> with you and hopefully some experts as well, I created a dedicated
>> #mlearning-basic channel on the OSM-US slack (
>> https://osmus-slack.herokuapp.com/ )
>>
>> OSM-US runs a lovely, informative, lively, international slack with
>> many channels and everyone is welcome!
>>
>> The #mlearning-basic channel is for the absolute beginner basics, how
>> to install and use the existing and emerging tools chains and OSM/OAM
>> data to generate usable vector data from Machine Learning quickly.
>>
>> You are all invited to join, but it is very basic. Hopefully some of
>> the ML experts from the projects below will be in there to hand hold
>> us newbies through actually making use of what we are seeing more and
>> more everyday. Excellent tool chains exist, world changing tool
>> chains, now we just need to get them into the hands of the people who
>> need and want to use them everyday :)
>>
>> Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join, it is intended to be kind
>> of a "learn-a-long". Our first project, my first project, is building
>> on the Anthropocene Labs work and doing the same area using MapBoxes
>> RobotSat tool chain using Danial's and Maning's posts as a guide.
>>
>> For reference please see this incredible work the community has shared
>> in the past months, much like humanitarian mapping in general, the
>> projects you see below will start changing the world over the next 12
>> months. Apologies if I missed any other OSM ML public projects, please
>> reply and let us all know!
>>
>> =
>>
>> Anthropocene Labs @anthropoco
>>
>> #Humanitarian #drone imgs of #Rohingya refugee camps + pretrained
>> model finetuned w @hotosm data. Not perfect maps but fast, small data
>> need, works w diff imgs. Thx @UNmigration @OpenAerialMap @geonanayi
>> @WeRobotics 4 #opendata & ideas! #cloudnative #geospatial
>> #deeplearning
>> https://twitter.com/anthropoco/status/1027268421442883584
>>
>> =
>>
>> This post follows Daniel’s guide for detecting buildings in drone
>> imagery in the Philippines. The goal of this exercise is for me to
>> understand the basics of the pipeline and find ways to use the tool in
>

Re: [HOT] Learning to Use Machine Learning - A learn along for folks who want to be using ML in their work.

[john whelan]

One does hope that a manual check will be part of the process?

Thanks John

On 9 August 2018 at 08:10, Blake Girardot  wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> In case you missed it, Dale Kunce tweeted this out yesterday:
>
> The day of Machine Learning and OSM/Humanitarian mapping reckoning is
> getting closer. Very excited for the possibilities these new methods
> have for @hotosm @RedCross. Next frontier is making HOT and
> @TheMissingMaps more valuable than just a training dataset for the
> machines.
>
> https://twitter.com/calimapnerd/status/1027275305440829440
>
> Toward that end, I have been watching and in some cases working with
> various ML tool chains over the past 2 years and really, not having a
> lot of luck with my level of skill and knowledge. I am a pretty
> advanced sysadmin, comfortable on the command line, but understanding
> the terminology and installations has been a bit beyond me.
>
> So if anyone is like me and sees all of these great tool chains and
> would like to learn how to use them with your peers learning along
> with you and hopefully some experts as well, I created a dedicated
> #mlearning-basic channel on the OSM-US slack (
> https://osmus-slack.herokuapp.com/ )
>
> OSM-US runs a lovely, informative, lively, international slack with
> many channels and everyone is welcome!
>
> The #mlearning-basic channel is for the absolute beginner basics, how
> to install and use the existing and emerging tools chains and OSM/OAM
> data to generate usable vector data from Machine Learning quickly.
>
> You are all invited to join, but it is very basic. Hopefully some of
> the ML experts from the projects below will be in there to hand hold
> us newbies through actually making use of what we are seeing more and
> more everyday. Excellent tool chains exist, world changing tool
> chains, now we just need to get them into the hands of the people who
> need and want to use them everyday :)
>
> Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join, it is intended to be kind
> of a "learn-a-long". Our first project, my first project, is building
> on the Anthropocene Labs work and doing the same area using MapBoxes
> RobotSat tool chain using Danial's and Maning's posts as a guide.
>
> For reference please see this incredible work the community has shared
> in the past months, much like humanitarian mapping in general, the
> projects you see below will start changing the world over the next 12
> months. Apologies if I missed any other OSM ML public projects, please
> reply and let us all know!
>
> =
>
> Anthropocene Labs @anthropoco
>
> #Humanitarian #drone imgs of #Rohingya refugee camps + pretrained
> model finetuned w @hotosm data. Not perfect maps but fast, small data
> need, works w diff imgs. Thx @UNmigration @OpenAerialMap @geonanayi
> @WeRobotics 4 #opendata & ideas! #cloudnative #geospatial
> #deeplearning
> https://twitter.com/anthropoco/status/1027268421442883584
>
> =
>
> This post follows Daniel’s guide for detecting buildings in drone
> imagery in the Philippines. The goal of this exercise is for me to
> understand the basics of the pipeline and find ways to use the tool in
> identifying remote settlements from high resolution imagery (i.e
> drones). I’m not aiming for pixel-perfect detection (i.e precise
> geometry of the building). My main question is whether it can help
> direct a human mapper focus on specific areas in the imagery to map in
> OpenStreetMap.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/maning/diary/44462
>
> ===
>
> Recently at Mapbox we open sourced RoboSat our end-to-end pipeline for
> feature extraction from aerial and satellite imagery. In the following
> I will show you how to run the full RoboSat pipeline on your own
> imagery using drone imagery from the OpenAerialMap project in the area
> of Tanzania as an example.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/daniel-j-h/diary/44321
>
> =
>
> Skynet is our machine learning platform. It quickly scans vast
> archives of satellite and drone imagery and delivers usable insights
> to decisionmakers. Our partners use Skynet to reliably extract roads
> and buildings from images that NASA, ESA, and private satellites and
> drones record daily. The tool is remarkably versatile. We are
> experimenting with using Skynet to detect electricity infrastructure,
> locate schools, and evaluate crop performance.
>
> https://developmentseed.org/projects/skynet/
>
> =
>
> Deep learning techniques, esp. Convolutional Neural Networks (CNNs),
> are now widely studied for predictive analytics with remote sensing
> images, which can be further applied in different domains for ground
> object detection, population mapping, etc. These methods usually train
> predicting models with the supervision of a large set of training
> examples.
>
> https://www.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/gis/deepvgi_en.html
>
> 

Re: [HOT] use of landuse=Farm Land

[john whelan]

These things do get picked up and corrected by mappers other than HOT
valifactors.  If you are proposing a mechanical edit then there is due
process which should probably be followed if only to set a good example.

The other method is to bring them into JOSM select them.  Correct them then
load them onto a to-do list and just flip through them inspecting each one
as you go.  I don't thing that counts as a mechanical edit.

If you remind me where it is I can whip through them.

Thanks John


On Wed, 1 Aug 2018, 12:33 pm joost schouppe, 
wrote:

> Thanks Henning, that seems to be a correct analysis.
>
> The changeset comment on new tasks at tasks.teachosm.org still suggests
> "#hotosm-task-600" for a task created 12 days ago. That's wrong and
> confusing. I would guess the Tasking Manager has "#hotosm-task-[task ID]"
> as a default; maybe that could be changed to "#[Domain name]-task-[task
> ID]". That would ensure that people who don't touch the default also
> generate unique changeset comments. Though maybe this is already
> implemented, and this is just an old instance that was upgraded to TM3 but
> kept previous settings.
>
> Can I be bold and just correct the landuse tag in a mechanical edit? It's
> been two years and no-one has been validating anything at all there. I
> won't go into cleaning the buildings myself though.
>
> I'll foward this thread to TeachOSM so they might fix their settings.
> According to the OSM Community Index, Bangladesh is on Facebook, so I'll
> forward there too.
> (my Belgian "colleague" Jonathan Beliën made this nifty site to visualise
> that project: https://community.osmbe.akoo.ovh/resources/asia/bangladesh )
>
>
> Regards,
> Joost
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Re: [HOT] Currently issues with OSM servers

[john whelan]

Generically when databases are overloaded they sometimes work better in the
early morning or before noon GMT.  One technical reason is the log files
are shorter.  So if you've been working in JOSM just save the file then try
an upload early next morning.

This also works on overloaded internet connections the earlier in the day
you work the quieter it is.

Cheerio John

On 25 July 2018 at 02:36, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM 
wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> OpenStreetMap is undergoing some maintenance (main servers being moved
> to new location) and is running on reduced hardware for the next week
> or two.
>
> As a result, uploads to the server have been affected and several
> folks across OSM are reporting problems.
>
> Please make sure to save your work as you map, as it is possible the
> temporary servers might not be able to accept your uploads at any
> time. When that happens, just waiting 5 mins or so might be enough to
> make sure your work is saved.
>
> We know how frustrating errors when saving can be and OSM does
> everything it can to make sure that never happens, but some times it
> will happen and at the moment is a bit more likely.
>
> Respectfully,
> blake
>
> --
> 
> Blake Girardot
> Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
>
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Re: [HOT] building=yes both on the way and on the nodes

[john whelan]

Thanks your emails came in fine.  Sounds like yahoo.fr and Google spam
filters are now aligned.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018, 4:22 pm Pierre Béland,  wrote:

> It seems that you have not received my previous answer to John on this
> list where I provided a solution to query a bbox from Overpass.
> See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/A9c
>
> A more generic solution where it shows child nodes of a building with any
> key except source.
> In this example around Freetown, it even picks a power line connected to a
> building where also the node has keys. We also see what seems to be field
> work for the Ebola outbreak in 2015 by MSF and Red Cross where keys such as
> name are added to child node of a building.
>
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/A9E
>
> overpass turbo
>
> <http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/A9E>
>
>
> content
> /* --> osm keys (except source) on buidings child nodes */
> [out:xml][timeout:60];
>
> way({{bbox}})["building"]->.b;
> node(w.b)[!"source"](if:count_tags()>0);
> out meta;<; out meta;
> >; out meta;
>
>
> Pierre
>
>
> Le dimanche 8 juillet 2018 15 h 23 min 48 s HAE, john whelan <
> jwhelan0...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
> I suspect its more general than just Chad since its more than one mapper.
> At 2,657 in Chad I'd say that's liveable with unless some kind soul could
> zap them.  I very much doubt there is a valid reason for their existence.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 8 July 2018 at 15:12, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>
> On Sun, July 8, 2018 4:09 pm, john whelan wrote:
> > I'm seeing a fair number of these especially in CHAD.  Could someone do
> an
> > overpass or whatever to see how big a problem it is?
>
> I loaded the following query into JOSM:
>
> [out:xml];
> {{geocodeArea:chad}}->. searchArea;
> (
>   way["building"="yes"](area. searchArea);
> );
> (._;>;);
> out meta;
>
> I ran the validator... "Nodes duplicating parent way tags" numbered 2657
> and they were all building=yes
>
> Committed: https://www.openstreetmap.org/ changeset/60516490
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/60516490>
>
> The changeset covers only a region around N'Djaména - I don't know if it
> is because no buildings in Chad exist outside of this are or if my query
> applied to the bounding box rather than to the geocodeArea I intended.
>
>
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Re: [HOT] building=yes both on the way and on the nodes

[john whelan]

Thank you.

Cheerio John

On 8 July 2018 at 15:36, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On 2018-07-08 21:22, john whelan wrote:
>
> I suspect its more general than just Chad since its more than one mapper.
> At 2,657 in Chad I'd say that's liveable with unless some kind soul could
> zap them.
>
>
> As I said, https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/60516490 took care of
> that.
>
>
> I very much doubt there is a valid reason for their existence.
>
>
> They are actually quite useful: they indicate an area where contributors
> do not care about neither JOSM validator nor Osmose reports.
>
>
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Re: [HOT] building=yes both on the way and on the nodes

[john whelan]

I suspect its more general than just Chad since its more than one mapper.
At 2,657 in Chad I'd say that's liveable with unless some kind soul could
zap them.  I very much doubt there is a valid reason for their existence.

Cheerio John

On 8 July 2018 at 15:12, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On Sun, July 8, 2018 4:09 pm, john whelan wrote:
> > I'm seeing a fair number of these especially in CHAD.  Could someone do
> an
> > overpass or whatever to see how big a problem it is?
>
> I loaded the following query into JOSM:
>
> [out:xml];
> {{geocodeArea:chad}}->.searchArea;
> (
>   way["building"="yes"](area.searchArea);
> );
> (._;>;);
> out meta;
>
> I ran the validator... "Nodes duplicating parent way tags" numbered 2657
> and they were all building=yes
>
> Committed: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/60516490
>
> The changeset covers only a region around N'Djaména - I don't know if it
> is because no buildings in Chad exist outside of this are or if my query
> applied to the bounding box rather than to the geocodeArea I intended.
>
>
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Re: [HOT] building=yes both on the way and on the nodes

[john whelan]

​There is a batch here in Chad:

 "name"="Mandi"
"place"="village"
  Coordinates: 13.4288186, 14.7635571​

users starting BUR with a number appear to have some training issues and
not just on buildings.

Cheerio John


On 8 July 2018 at 10:46, Jorieke Vyncke  wrote:

> Where in Chad is this John?
>
> Jorieke
>
> 2018-07-08 15:09 GMT+01:00 john whelan :
>
>> I'm seeing a fair number of these especially in CHAD.  Could someone do
>> an overpass or whatever to see how big a problem it is?
>>
>> and they were done months ago by mappers who haven't mapped recently.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
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Re: [HOT] building=yes both on the way and on the nodes

[john whelan]

I hate to say it but I'm not sure.  I just grab chunks these days and scan
them for missing tags etc.  I came across at least three instances by
different mappers using JOSM so not the building_tool, and I have cleaned
up some 500 manually but I think an automated edit might save my fingers.
It depends on how many there are.  There seems little point in leaving
feedback as the ones I did a history on were done back in feb and at least
one of the mappers hasn't mapped in the last three months.  I did leave a
comment on one HOT project however.  Geography never was one of my strong
points.

Tunbun Fitinewa is on the slice if that helps.

I suggest running overpass to see how many there are then clean up with an
automated script after going through the hoops to do an automated edit but
overpass and scripting are not my strong points.

Cheerio John

On 8 July 2018 at 10:46, Jorieke Vyncke  wrote:

> Where in Chad is this John?
>
> Jorieke
>
> 2018-07-08 15:09 GMT+01:00 john whelan :
>
>> I'm seeing a fair number of these especially in CHAD.  Could someone do
>> an overpass or whatever to see how big a problem it is?
>>
>> and they were done months ago by mappers who haven't mapped recently.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
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[HOT] building=yes both on the way and on the nodes

[john whelan]

I'm seeing a fair number of these especially in CHAD.  Could someone do an
overpass or whatever to see how big a problem it is?

and they were done months ago by mappers who haven't mapped recently.

Thanks John
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[HOT] What are the requirements for mapping buildings in Africa specifically in villages

[john whelan]

In the ideal world we can gain a lot of information from a perfectly mapped
building.

Unfortunately in the real world using beginners and editors without a
building_tool we end up with imperfectly mapped buildings.

Would we be better mapping them as nodes?  It faster and studies have shown
asking someone to 'hit the target in the center' is often more accurate
than more complex instructions.

Nodes can have building level etc associated with them.  It's only the more
sophisticated GIS applications that can make use of the building footprint
and these are often in specific urban areas.

So what are the requirements?

I would suggest as a first requirement we need some way clean up the
buildings if they are imperfect or map them in such a way it doesn't
matter.  ie nodes.  Currently it has been noted that validating buildings
does not appear to be attractive and it can take longer to correct a
building than to delete it and remap correctly.

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen please.

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] Critical Numbers Tool: Find Tasking Manager projects which need validation

[john whelan]

Just a comment it might be nice if some more validation could be
organised.

I've just picked up 845 highway=road from one inexperienced HOT mapper,
about fifty ways tagged both building=yes and highway=road.  Although Blake
did a nice job cleaning up 500 duplicates buildings but Malawi still has
some 4,805 duplicate buildings that need sorting out sometime.

Cheerio John

On 28 June 2018 at 17:48, Rebecca Firth  wrote:

> Hey Benni,
>
> Thanks a lot for sharing, having these visualisations will be a great
> resource to try to encourage growth of validation and awareness for
> project/organisation managers - please share updates on the tool
> development as they come through!
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:10 AM, Hagellach Hegenich 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I wanted to share the results of a small project related to the HOT
>> Tasking Manager we recently conducted. We developed a tool, we call it
>> "Critical Numbers", which uses the API of the Tasking Manager to visualize
>> which projects have been mapped and how complete they have been validated.
>> (Thanks Matthias for this great work!) You can test the tool here:
>> https://disastertools.heigit.org/critical_numbers/
>>
>> And we got a little introduction and some examples for you as well:
>> https://github.com/GIScience/hot-tm-critical-numbers/blob/ma
>> ster/blog-post.md
>>
>> We are always happy about feedback and further ideas. Currently, it's
>> more a proof of concept, but let's see what questions become important in
>> the future.
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Benni
>>
>>
>> --
>> Benjamin Herfort
>> Research Assistant HeiGIT - Disaster Mapping and Management
>>
>> GIScience Research Group
>> Department of Geography, Heidelberg University
>>
>> http://giscience.uni-hd.de
>>
>> Berliner Str. 45, Room 004
>> D-69120 Heidelberg
>> Tel: +49(0)6221 54 19703
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Rebecca Firth*
> Community and Partnerships Manager
> rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org 
> @RebeccaFirthy
>
> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
>
> You can #mapthedifference today! Donate.hotosm.org
> 
> web  | twitter  | facebook
>  | donate 
>
>
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Re: [HOT] Buildings in DR Congo

[john whelan]

Some nice person wrote me a small JOSM script.

https://www.jatws.org/johnw/SelectDuplicateBuildings.zip

You need runscript plugin for JOSM and the todo list.

The way I work is to use an offline version of the area and find the
duplicates.  Then I take a village at a time that contains duplicates and
redownload the small area to have a fresh version since its deleting things
and you don't want two deletions of the building.  Run the script and use
to todo list to check each one.  Repeat for another area.

I agree about the 500 duplicate figure its just tedious doing them one at a
time and if this can be avoided it gives us more amping resources for
somewhere else.  I have tagged more than a hundred untagged buildings with
a HOT tag line in the area as well.

Cheerio John

On 10 June 2018 at 13:19, Blake Girardot  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> In looking at the duplicate building issue specifically.
>
> Over the entire area of the three projects listed, I find 185,000 buildings
>
> Of those, I find 500 are duplicates, which will be pretty quick and
> easy to remove.
>
> I am going to work on removing those now, so that item will be
> resolved. Should not take too long, will let this list know when I am
> done.
>
> Cheers,
> blake
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Blake Girardot 
> wrote:
> > Hi Henning,
> >
> > Russ and myself are looking a bit more into this as well.
> >
> > My initial review of a few of the areas shows that it is quite typical
> > mapping, mostly buildings being added so I expect mostly the same sort
> > of issues that are typical with building mapping. But it was also done
> > by a group of pretty experienced mappers so probably less issues than
> > usual.
> >
> > Since they are fully mapped at this point, it might make sense to
> > re-activate them for validation and restrict the validation to
> > experienced validators.
> >
> > We could share the areas of the projects outside of the tasking
> > manager, but that might lead to more issues with multiple people
> > reviewing and fixing on their own.
> >
> > Thank you very much for helping Henning!
> >
> > cheers
> > blake
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Henning Bolz  wrote:
> >> Hello Pierre, Hello Russell,
> >>
> >> i understand there are about 25 Objects edited in the ebola AOI
> without
> >> any validation??!
> >> They will contain a certain amount of errors. What can be done to find
> and
> >> correct these?
> >>
> >> As TM is not available for validation, maybe the three task areas can be
> >> used for manual search.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Henning (hebolz)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 um 15:47 Uhr
> >> Von: "Pierre Béland" 
> >> An: HOT , "john whelan" 
> >> Betreff: Re: [HOT] Buildings in DR Congo
> >> Hi John,
> >>
> >> Thanks to report these errors.
> >>
> >> I participate to the Coordination with Claire Halleux and OSM-DRC for
> this
> >> Ebola outbreak. We have noticed yesterday morning that a few tasking
> jobs
> >> were created and massive mapping done on friday.
> >>
> >> The task jobs 4696, 4697 and 4708 were created with no prior discussion
> on
> >> any list and no contact of the Coordination team. As you mention, they
> >> overlap. They also overlap with previous Ebola Outbreak jobs created by
> the
> >> OSM-DRC.
> >>
> >> No validation was done while this activity was going on. Yesterday
> morning,
> >> I contacted the Job's creator via his OSM account and we wait for an
> answer.
> >> Meanwhile, I have archived the tasks with a note in the title.
> >>
> >> Looking at tasks created, we can see that they were created by a by an
> OSM
> >> participant to the Hotosm Tanzania Mini Grids Project and that
> contributors
> >> of this project did map these Ebola tasks.
> >>
> >> Looking on Tweeter,  an Ebola Mapathon is reported (see
> >> https://twitter.com/RamaniHuria/status/1005052619109396482) and there
> >>
> >> Neis Statistics show a high volume of data edited for these jobs.
> >> JobcontributorsObjects
> >> 46967476,083
> >> 4697  4541
> >> 470871  170,744
> >>
> >> We have to remember that this OSM Response for the Ebola outbreak is to
> >> support adequately the hu

Re: [HOT] You tell us! What should we talk about at HOT Summit 2018?

[john whelan]

Perhaps a better idea might be what can be done with the data?  AI mapping
isn't yet accepted by OpenStreetMap.

Getting some templates in something like R r.org that can be used locally
by bodies such as municipal government adds value to the mapping.

Hopefully mappers seeing more use being made of their mapping will
encourage them to map another tile.

Cheerio John



On 1 June 2018 at 13:14, elijah karanja  wrote:

> The emerging technologies like data science and Artificial  intelligence
> with respect  to mapping
>
> On Jun 1, 2018 08:18, "Rachel VanNice"  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> The HOT Summit at FOSS4G 2018 in Dar es Salaam is only 3 months away!
>
> We need your thoughts and input on what's happening in the HOT Community.
> What do you want to talk about, learn about? Want to get new ideas or
> discuss old ones? This is the time to suggest topics for facilitated
> discussions, birds of a feather, or more casual catch ups.
>
> Have your say here-
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe3ZhUYaDfozbNl3xkGbzIUTH9M6Y_Se3_7v1RvtV8ZGgnn8g/viewform
>
> Thanks,
> Rachel
>
> --
> Rachel VanNice
> Operations Manager
> E-Mail: rachel.vann...@hotosm.org
> Skype: rachel.vannice
>
> Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
> Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development
>
> *Support HOT's work year-round with a recurring donation-
> donate.hotosm.org *
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>  | donate 
>
>
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Re: [HOT] hotosm task 580? in Namibia

[john whelan]

I've left messages for three of the mappers.

Changeset: 57863950
#WestwoodMiddleSchool #MaptimeMorgantown #hotosm-task-580#sauceybob
is one.  It looks like a group of school children mapping with no one
looking over their shoulder and there are quite a variety of errors.

Cheerio John

On 23 April 2018 at 18:55, <russell.deff...@hotosm.org> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
>
>
> Possibly from another TM instance (i.e. if they left the default changeset
> comment)? So best bet is probably just directly giving feedback to the
> mapper via changeset discussion or message via their profile.
>
>
>
> =Russ
>
>
>
> *From:* john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 23, 2018 4:50 PM
> *To:* HOT <hot@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* [HOT] hotosm task 580? in Namibia
>
>
>
> names ending in Westwood possibly some sort of school?
>
> I've added tags to a few hundred untagged ways.  There doesn't seem to be
> a task 580 in HOT the mapping is fairly recent.
>
> Is here any way to give a bit of feedback since there are so many untagged
> ways?  Mainly buildings, well roughly where the buildings are the shapse
> are bit odd.  I've also deleted a number of duplicate buildings that had
> the same sort of changeset tags on them.
>
> Thanks John
>
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[HOT] hotosm task 580? in Namibia

[john whelan]

names ending in Westwood possibly some sort of school?

I've added tags to a few hundred untagged ways.  There doesn't seem to be a
task 580 in HOT the mapping is fairly recent.

Is here any way to give a bit of feedback since there are so many untagged
ways?  Mainly buildings, well roughly where the buildings are the shapse
are bit odd.  I've also deleted a number of duplicate buildings that had
the same sort of changeset tags on them.


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[HOT] Untagged Buildings created by JOSM

[john whelan]

I'm seeing a number of these.  If you are using JOSM to map square
buildings please use the building_tool plugin.  If you're running a
mapathon and notice mappers are using JOSM perhaps give them a nudge if
they aren't using teh building_tool plugin.

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Re: [HOT] Nominations open for new HOT voting members!

[john whelan]

Pete I've noticed a number of your messages are being directed to SPAM by
Gmail.  This is one of them.

Cheerio John

This message has a from address in googlemail.com but has failed
googlemail.com's required tests for authentication.  Learn more


On 10 March 2018 at 09:24, Pete Masters  wrote:

> Hello HOT community, just a quick reminder...
>
> Today is the last day to either nominate someone or express interest in
> being nominated for HOT voting membership.
>
> Tomorrow morning, the form will be closed. If you have expressed interest
> in being nomonated, we will let you know by the end of Tuesday whether a
> current HOT member has come forward to nomonate ypu formally or not.
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScklpA0cLTe1vh138zAfyKu
> dWAF6_ninkx71HQQZ6xM_px8bQ/viewform
>
> Hope you're all well and looking forward to welcoming more of you as
> members very soon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018, 21:43 Mikel Maron,  wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone -- reminder that nominations are open until Saturday, March
>> 10! If you are a voting member -- nominate folks. If you are interested to
>> become a member, please do not hesitate to put yourself forward (you can
>> put yourself up) https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/
>> 1FAIpQLScklpA0cLTe1vh138zAfyKudWAF6_ninkx71HQQZ6xM_px8bQ/viewform
>>
>> -Mikel
>>
>> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>>
>>
>> On Monday, February 26, 2018, 12:08:01 PM EST, Pete Masters <
>> pete.mast...@hotosm.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello HOT community, how are you all?
>>
>> It’s the time of year again where we develop and grow the HOT voting
>> membership. The way this works is that each of the current members can
>> nominate one new person to join. We are looking for people who are
>> passionate about HOT’s work and who have made significant contributions.
>>
>> This year, to try and increase the diversity of the HOT membership, we
>> are also inviting people to express interest in being a member even if they
>> do not have contacts within the current membership (i.e. don’t know any
>> members who can nominate them). We will then offer members the opportunity
>> to support these people expressing interest by formally nominating them.
>>
>> So, if you would like to express interest in becoming a HOT voting
>> member, and you don’t know any current members, you can do so here [1].
>>
>> If you are interested and you do know current members, ask one of them to
>> nominate you (go here to see who the current members are [2]).
>>
>>
>> The nominations are open until 10th March.
>>
>> If you have any other questions about the process or want to talk about
>> any related matters, please feel free to get in touch.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Pete & HOT election committee
>>
>> [1] https://docs.google.com/forms/ d/e/1FAIpQLScklpA0cLTe1vh138zA
>> fyKudWAF6_ninkx71HQQZ6xM_ px8bQ/viewform
>>
>> [2] https://www.hotosm.org/voting- members
>> --
>> Pete Masters
>> Board Member
>> Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team (HOT)
>> Twitter: @pedrito1414
>> Skype: pedrito1414
>> ___
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>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>
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>
>
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Re: [HOT] Using a pen tablet for mapping input

[john whelan]

So a Wacom,well yes essentially they are a mouse so yes they can be used
but the image would be on the screen and I'm unable to see the advantage
over a conventional mouse.

The Microsoft surface and pen you can point to the image with the pen but
you may find it more difficult to control.

Cheerio John

On 13 March 2018 at 21:23, Lists <blsli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That isn't the type of tablet I am talking about - not an iPad but the
> type graphic designers use.
>
>
>
> Bryan Sayer
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
> Date: 03/13/2018 8:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Lists <blsli...@gmail.com>
> Cc: HOT <hot@openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [HOT] Using a pen tablet for mapping input
>
> My feeling is tablets are not ideal unless you use a mouse, a wireless one
> would work fine.  It's a matter of control, I have a Microsoft surface
> tablet lying around it has the computing power but until I used a wireless
> mouse with it I had difficulty with the pen.
>
> JOSM should run under ubuntu.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 13 March 2018 at 20:41, Lists <blsli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know if it is possible to use a pen tablet input device,
>> ideally in ubuntu, to do the mapping for the missing maps? If so, can
>> anyone recommend a specific tablet?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bryan Sayer
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
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Re: [HOT] Using a pen tablet for mapping input

[john whelan]

My feeling is tablets are not ideal unless you use a mouse, a wireless one
would work fine.  It's a matter of control, I have a Microsoft surface
tablet lying around it has the computing power but until I used a wireless
mouse with it I had difficulty with the pen.

JOSM should run under ubuntu.

Cheerio John

On 13 March 2018 at 20:41, Lists  wrote:

> Does anyone know if it is possible to use a pen tablet input device,
> ideally in ubuntu, to do the mapping for the missing maps? If so, can
> anyone recommend a specific tablet?
>
>
>
> Bryan Sayer
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
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Re: [HOT] mapping buildings or houses with a smartphone?

[john whelan]

Do we have a wiki page anywhere that lists the off line mapping options?

Thanks John

On 6 March 2018 at 11:54, john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've come across a few hundred that have been mapped as bus_stops using
> maps.me on smartphones in Togo.
>
> These have been mapped as nodes.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions on a better way to map them?  Ideally
> using maps.me since that would keep the training simpler.
>
> Poor internet connections so its all off line.
>
> I think someone built an off line tool that handled imagery as well as
> tiles is that still around could it be run on a laptop feeding iD or JOSM
> on other laptops?
>
> I have some concerns about accuracy with the maps.me approach not all the
> buildings line up with Bing.
>
> Thanks John
>
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[HOT] mapping buildings or houses with a smartphone?

[john whelan]

I've come across a few hundred that have been mapped as bus_stops using
maps.me on smartphones in Togo.

These have been mapped as nodes.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a better way to map them?  Ideally
using maps.me since that would keep the training simpler.

Poor internet connections so its all off line.

I think someone built an off line tool that handled imagery as well as
tiles is that still around could it be run on a laptop feeding iD or JOSM
on other laptops?

I have some concerns about accuracy with the maps.me approach not all the
buildings line up with Bing.

Thanks John
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[HOT] Recent perceptions on the Aid charities

[john whelan]

Do we care?

Are we seeing a drop off in the numbers mapping?

Could someone put some numbers in so we can see a % figure on how bad the
problem is?  My expectation is considering the numbers involved the
fraction of aid workers involved would be very low.

The expense of vetting local volenteers or even employees is probably
something the accountants would like to keep to a minimum.

I note that in many areas one of the biggest problems is simply
corruption.  Food aid being sold in markets for example.  How realistic is
it to expect western european standards of behavior?

I was concerned that one of the OXFAM employees implicated appears to have
found a job with UNICEF.

Politically governments provide much of the funding for aid work.  It
doesn't make it easier for them.

Any thoughts or is it one of those things that are not to be discussed?

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] LGBTQ people at HOT Summit? [WAS: SAVE THE DATE Aug 27-Sep 2: HOT and FOSS4G Together in Tanzania]

[john whelan]

Perhaps the board could come up with a policy that either says we don't
care about such things and recognise that it will be dangerous for some to
attend or we only hold HOT summits in places that are safe from local laws
for all.

It should certainly be drawn to the attention of anyone planning to attend
just in case they may not feel comfortable in such an environment.

Cheerio John

On 16 Feb 2018 11:10 am, "Rory McCann"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> So the HOT Summit is in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. But, erm, it's illegal
> to be gay in Tanzania[1]. Travel advice from the UK[2] and US[3]
> governments repeats that: "Homosexuality is not tolerated".
>
> The code of conduct for this conference[4] is (mostly) excellent, it
> covers "sexual orientation". But that's impossible in a country with
> such laws.
>
> (IMO) this conference cannot be a safe space for LGBTQ people[5]. We
> have the strange situation of HOT saying "This is a safe space for LGBTQ
> people, but follow the law which makes your existence illegal"[6]. I am
> flabbergasted at how HOT can think this can be a safe space, and HOT
> runs the risk of looking like they don't know what a safe space is...
>
> There's nothing wrong (IMO) with a CoC adapted to local laws[7]. But
> please be honest. The conference venue is homophobic. HOT should delete
> the "sexual orientation" parts from your CoC. SotM Africa 2017 in Uganda
> had a similar CoC[8], and similar laws. There is talk about (good) CoCs
> being mandatory for events, and if this is what passes as a CoC, then
> we've already given up.
>
> There's an argument about how far to go ("This country's
> anti-discrimination law doesn't go as far as my home country! Racist
> country!"), but I think there should be *a* line. Let's talk about that.
> "Illegal to be gay or trans[9]" is (IMO) a good line for LGBTQ issues.
>
> It looks like limiting LGBTQ attendance wasn't a deal breaker for HOT,
> or that diversity/inclusivity just isn't thought about much, which is sad.
>
> --
> Rory
>
> [1] Technically same-sex sex is illegal, and so is having a same-sex
> spouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania
> [2] https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/tanzania/local-laws
> -and-customs
> [3]
> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-
> travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Tanzania.html
> [4] http://2018.foss4g.org/code-of-conduct.html
> [5] Same-sex sex is illegal in TZ, along with having a same sex spouse.
> I haven't see anything on trans laws, but I think we can guess.
> [6] https://twitter.com/hotosm/status/964252343318532096
> [7] I propose: "If the event covers a region where it's legal to
> be gay, then the event cannot be held in a place where it's illegal to
> be gay." This makes SotM Africa (or global SotM) in Uganda wrong, but SotM
> Tanzania in Tanzania OK. "SotM East Africa" in Uganda would be OK.
> [8]
> https://web.archive.org/web/20170710101126/http://sotmafrica
> .org:80/registration/code-of-conduct/
> [9] "illegal to be trans" is often laws against "crossdressing". This is
> happening now in Aceh, Indonesia, and the modern Gay Pride parades
> sprung from such a law in New York, USA in 1969.
>
> (I've been to Tanzania a few times, and it's a great country, Dar &
> Zanzibar are wonderful tourist destinations, and I totally recommend the
> area. But LGBTQ folk need to be careful.)
>
>
> On 14/02/18 01:49, Tyler Radford wrote:
>
>> Dear HOT Community,
>>
>>
>> You are invited to the 2018 HOT Summit at FOSS4G, August 29-31in Dar es
>> Salaam, Tanzania!
>>
>>
>> This year we again had a great selection of potential locations for the
>> HOT Summit and were faced with a hard decision as we were very keen to have
>> a joint event with both the OpenStreetMap and FOSS4G communities. As a
>> first time chance to hold the Summit in a HOT project location, and through
>> a wonderful partnership we are pleased to bring the HOT Summit to FOSS4G
>> this year. HOT will lead the “Widening Access and Humanitarian Mapping”
>> conference track. We welcome you to Tanzania -- home to our flagship Ramani
>> Huria and Data Zetu projects.
>>
>>
>> The Free and Open Source Software for Geospatial (FOSS4G) conference is
>> the yearly gathering of the OSGeo community and this year they are looking
>> to bring impact stories to their audience. With humanitarian and disaster
>> response use of FOSS, especially in regards to geospatial, the HOT
>> community brings an amazing showcase to an already impressive conference
>> program. We can’t wait to see the collaboration between these open
>> communities.
>>
>>
>> Key Dates:
>>
>>   *
>>
>> Coming Soon: Discounted Ticket Sales for HOT community
>>
>>   *
>>
>> March 21: Presentation Submission
>> Deadline
>>
>>   *
>>
>> August 27-28: FOSS4G Pre-Conference Workshops
>>
>> ​​
>>
>>   *
>>
>> August 29-31: FOSS4G and HOT Summit Main Conference
>>
>>   *

[HOT] Technical Building gossip

[john whelan]

There are a number of initiatives going forward including one in Canada but
it would appear that it should be possible to extract building footprints
fairly accurately using this method.

"I confirm that we (NRCAN) are working on a process to extract building
footprints from airborne LiDAR data "

"The quality of these footprints are totally depending on the quality of
the LiDAR data in input (density and classification) "

Note this is purely technical, currently OpenStreetMap has reservations
about using image scanning software because of quality issues so there will
be some issues on acceptance in OSM.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

[john whelan]

 between the routers
>> matters. A nice feature would be if the app told you what it's doing (p2p
>> or via server) so that you know whether you're safe on WiFi or killing the
>> internet connection...
>>
>> There is an app called FireChat, that apparently can do p2p off-internet.
>> It's proprietary, and I haven't looking into it much. However, it strikes
>> me that such an app would be really useful, especially server-less, with
>> the option to connect to a global network if available.
>>
>> Is there anybody who wants to form a little action group to investigate?
>>
>> Hope this helps!
>> Bjoern
>>
>> On 10 January 2018 at 23:58, john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp
>>> in Europe.
>>>
>>> You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is
>>> a simple free app that will how this.
>>>
>>> "Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not
>>> linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just
>>> need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms
>>> or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply
>>> type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and
>>> their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "
>>>
>>> It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will
>>> work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be
>>> John@192.168.2.99 mabel@192.168.2.33
>>>
>>> You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to
>>> work by the way.
>>>
>>> Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you
>>> should be able to cover a fair range.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [HOT] Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

[john whelan]

I've looked at serval and its a mesh network that has some complexity and
its not as reliable as one might desire.  It's better at text messages than
phone calls especially if there are delays in getting across the network.
Also it really needs a special router with custom software.  They
recommended a portable TP-Link router the MR3020 but no longer do so as the
US government has tightened restrictions on modified routers.  The software
moves forward when they can get funding so their mesh extender design is
five years old at the moment.

csip simple is open source and has many users.  Normally its used to a
server such as Asterisk an open source telephone exchange and ideally for a
large implementation you'd go that route.  If you need to go beyond one
router there are mesh network solutions that don't need an Internet
connection.  Asterisk is available as on a dvd image as a instant install
that insalls Unix as well.  A laptop has sufficient processing power but
setting the parameters is not something an unskilled person can do in the
field without very clear instructions.

The advantage of csip used in this way is it can be used on a small network
and its relatively simple to set up.  All you need is the ip address of the
phone you are calling.  It can use normal unmodified wifi routers. The
TP-link MR3020 for example can be battery powered.  There are advantages in
terms of keeping the electronics safe from fluctuating voltages.

There are other options such as Firechat but they aren't Open Source also
they rely on the functionality of the version of Android you are using.
The later versions of Android have things such as WiFi direct which means
in theory you can connect two devices without using anything else.
Unfortunately there isn't much software around at the moment capable of
using it.

I'm not saying csip meets all requirements and it does need documentation
to make it easier to use in the field.

If you start at the requirements then I think they include:

Independence from the Internet.  Either because it isn't available or
because the bandwidth available is insufficient to meet demand.

Works on a a range of mobile phones Android version 4.1 up?  You need to
define the base version.

Android or other operating systems as well?

Open Source for sanity's sake.  Proprietary systems are fine until the
company goes out of business etc.

Can a Lap Top be used as a router to hand out the IP addresses?

Can it use standard unmodified hardware or does it need a particular device?

Can it reach devices beyond the router's firewall given an ipv6 address
perhaps?

Cheerio John



On 11 January 2018 at 07:08, Milo van der Linden <m...@dogodigi.net> wrote:

> Please contact http://www.servalproject.org their project focuses exactly
> on this matter.
>
> On Jan 11, 2018 12:59 AM, "john whelan" <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in
>> Europe.
>>
>> You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is
>> a simple free app that will how this.
>>
>> "Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked
>> to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to
>> know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or
>> whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type
>> "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their
>> Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "
>>
>> It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work
>> fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be
>> John@192.168.2.99 mabel@192.168.2.33
>>
>> You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to
>> work by the way.
>>
>> Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you
>> should be able to cover a fair range.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
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[HOT] Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

[john whelan]

The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in
Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a
simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to
any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to
know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or
whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type
"user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their
Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work
fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be
John@192.168.2.99 mabel@192.168.2.33

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work
by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should
be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] Highway=track

[john whelan]

Note to Robert I think you have to divide the mapping into parts.  The
first is simple instructions that mappers can follow.  In HOT in particular
we have a huge turnover of mappers and I think for the most part new
mappers look at the options presented in iD and chose, I won't say randomly
but it can be close sometimes.

So basically stage one is get something mapped.  Hopefully with a tag that
is roughly correct.  The African highway wiki is a good guideline for
this.  Note you can opt out of the African highway mapping guideline but
armchair mappers they are used to it so might prefer to map elsewhere if
its something else to learn.

Stage two is tag the untagged ways.  Currently there are some 1,063
untagged ways in Uganda, most will be highways and 785 untagged with
comments so probably the majority are area=yes.  A ten percent sample of
Uganda gave 870? duplicate buildings so a rough estimate might be 8,700
duplicate buildings.  I have been working on reducing the number of
untagged ways in Uganda but these are the number remaining as of today.
There will be roughly 2,000 crossing highways selecting
unclassified/residential and above.

Stage three is the local mappers who are the technical authority for
tagging make decisions about tags.  As Frederik Ramm has mentioned it is a
balancing act between respecting the local mappers desires and making sure
it works with the larger infrastructure.  So if you want to use OSMand to
see where the highways are you'd better make sure that it displays the tag
you want at the zoom level you'd like.  Since service highways are normally
considered not terribly important you may find that they only show up when
zoomed in.  So you you have the freedom to choose but there are
implications.

Stage four local mappers clean up the highway tags to those you think are
appropriate.

Cheerio John


On 27 December 2017 at 13:15, Rupert Allan <rupert.al...@hotosm.org> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> We are following this discussion on Highways with interest in Uganda. I am
> awaiting further input on 'service roads' from Uganda Bureau of Statistics
> and other national and regional bodies with many years of experience, and
> we are also learning through community field mapping on the ground.
>
> Meanwhile, Re. 'Humanitarian Presets in OSM':
>
> The immediate reaction to the idea of custom presets for HOT is, I think
> positive. Input from HOT_Uganda is that in large refugee settlements, there
> are admin levels which have some conflicting tags, for instance a village
> has become the term at admin level 4 which signifies a whole area of
> settlement, around what was initially one village, but has now become a
> huge camp with sometimes hundreds of thousands of people. In Uganda,
> villages all have related borders, so in rural areas you cannot be 'outside
> of a village'  (you would be in the next village if you crossed the
> 'border' as it were).
>
> So they can be huge in terms of population. If they are designated a
> 'Refugee Community' (RC) Settlement, they then get divided into Zones,
> sometimes Points, Blocks and sometimes 'Tanks' (N.G.O. Water Tanks) -
> although there is an instance right now where the tanks are being taken
> away, as the water provision becomes piped. I am awaiting feedback on what
> convention the community will adopt.
>
> Anyway, this differs completely from the national system, (Local
> Council/LC), where admin levels run: 'District, (County), Subcounty,
> Parish, Village'. We survey both, and have a divide in our survey, with a
> different set of questions/name choice tags which we are evolving as we
> work. We would appreciate making sure these refugee conventions merge with
> other specifically humanitarian conventions in other contexts around the
> world.
> N.B. Even within these North Uganda settlements, addressing changes from
> one settlement to the next, sometimes even when settlements are
> neighbouring.
>
> I shall post some more information and some kind of table on the Wiki, as
> things unfold here, but the main point is that 'Yes, certain
> Humanitarian-Specific tags would be most useful to us'.
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Rupert
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:53 PM, john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The first comment is It looks reasonable to me but I'm not the technical
>> authority on this one.  Pierre might be better.
>>
>> Second comment is we can invoke a special preset with iD when opened by
>> Task Manager.
>>
>> Realistically the mappers we want to nudge most are those who only map
>> once and have very little interest in instructions or web pages.  You can
>> tell I'm feeling cynical today.
>>
>> We might do better to come up with a preset for iD that is better suited
>> for new mappers. ie dro

Re: [HOT] Comment to project managers of Building projects

[john whelan]

It was more of a heads up comment about data quality.  Certain projects use
building counts to estimate population for one reason or another.  The one
I spotted was about did it make financial sense to install solar panels.
So if you count the number of buildings this gives you an indication of
demand.

However for some areas if you count the number of buildings in OSM you are
counting the real buildings twice.  So if your project depends on knowing
an accurate number of buildings then I suggest you run the duplicate
building script to ensure none are counted twice.

So its very much aimed not at maperthon organisers but at the people who
use or analyse the data.  It's a way to strip out some of the errors.
Project managers perhaps.  The problem with maperthon organisers is not all
of them know how to map so they aren't a good target audience.  The project
managers need good accurate data so they are the ones who would be
motivated to do these sort of checks.

I don't think we need worry too much about it.  We have a tool to spot them
and I've probably deleted a thousand or more already and others will be
cleaning up the map so hopefully they'll disappear in time.

If we extended the time lock on a tile to four hours that might be enough
to prevent a few or if we can get people to upload every thirty minutes
that might eliminate some.  The real problem here is the number of extra
buildings that could have been mapped with the same amount of effort.  Say
it that way and you might catch a few maperthon organisers attention.

The problem with validation is as soon as you come up with a basic set of
tests then someone comes along with a new twist.  Using JOSM to check for
untagged ways, crossing highways, highways terminating close to another
highway, unclosed buildings, duplicate ways. e-arching for highway=road is
fairly quick and simple plus scanning the tile to see that everything has
been done to a reasonable standard.

Adding in things like highway=yes, or ways tagged highway=unclassified,
building=yes can be done but adds to the time taken when validating.

Cheerio John

On 27 December 2017 at 17:23, Bjoern Hassler <bjohas...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for this suggestion.
>
> Would it be an idea to enhance the mapathon instructions, to include
> suggestions such as running scripts like these (at the validation stage, or
> perhaps run by the task owner)?
>
> If anybody wants to get together to discuss those planning/ best
> practice-related issues, I'd be very happy to  join in!
>
> Bjoern
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2017 at 19:12, john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A snapshot of 10% of Uganda gave me 870 duplicate buildings. This is
>> where two buildings overlap by more than 50%. This is merely to give you an
>> idea of the scope of the problem.
>>
>> If you are relying on the data then running Mike Thompson's detect
>> building script will find any duplicates in your project.
>>
>> Typically I'm seeing clusters of up to 200 duplicate buildings in a small
>> area, that one was on a project to count buildings for a solar panels.
>> These are not uploaded twice but the buildings have been mapped twice with
>> small differences.
>>
>> https://github.com/MikeTho16/JOSM-Scripts
>>
>> Select Duplicate Buildings
>> Selects duplicate, or near duplicate, area buildings in JOSM's active
>> datalayer.
>> A "near duplicate" is a building whose area overlaps another building's
>> area by more than 50%. Only the first building encountered of an
>> overlapping pair is selected. This is done so the issue does not have to
>> be
>> looked at twice. The selected buildings are added to the current
>> selection.
>> Currently only works with buildings that are ways (not multipolygons).
>>
>> To Run:
>> * Install JOSM's Scripting Plugin (only necessary once)
>> * Place file in a convenient location on your system (only necessary once)
>> * Click "Scripting" (on top menu bar)
>> * Click "Run"
>> * Click "..." button and select the script file.
>> * Click "Run"
>>
>> If you decide to delete some I'd recommend downloading the area fresh in
>> JOSM then running the script, inspect each building deleting if need be
>> then upload the results quickly to reduce the risk of a another mapper
>> deleting the other building of a pair.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>
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[HOT] Comment to project managers of Building projects

[john whelan]

A snapshot of 10% of Uganda gave me 870 duplicate buildings. This is where
two buildings overlap by more than 50%. This is merely to give you an idea
of the scope of the problem.

If you are relying on the data then running Mike Thompson's detect building
script will find any duplicates in your project.

Typically I'm seeing clusters of up to 200 duplicate buildings in a small
area, that one was on a project to count buildings for a solar panels.
These are not uploaded twice but the buildings have been mapped twice with
small differences.

https://github.com/MikeTho16/JOSM-Scripts

Select Duplicate Buildings
Selects duplicate, or near duplicate, area buildings in JOSM's active
datalayer.
A "near duplicate" is a building whose area overlaps another building's
area by more than 50%. Only the first building encountered of an
overlapping pair is selected. This is done so the issue does not have to be
looked at twice. The selected buildings are added to the current
selection.
Currently only works with buildings that are ways (not multipolygons).

To Run:
* Install JOSM's Scripting Plugin (only necessary once)
* Place file in a convenient location on your system (only necessary once)
* Click "Scripting" (on top menu bar)
* Click "Run"
* Click "..." button and select the script file.
* Click "Run"

If you decide to delete some I'd recommend downloading the area fresh in
JOSM then running the script, inspect each building deleting if need be
then upload the results quickly to reduce the risk of a another mapper
deleting the other building of a pair.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] Highway=track

[john whelan]

The first comment is It looks reasonable to me but I'm not the technical
authority on this one.  Pierre might be better.

Second comment is we can invoke a special preset with iD when opened by
Task Manager.

Realistically the mappers we want to nudge most are those who only map once
and have very little interest in instructions or web pages.  You can tell
I'm feeling cynical today.

We might do better to come up with a preset for iD that is better suited
for new mappers. ie drop living_street and footway as options for Africa.

Cheerio John

On 27 December 2017 at 07:44, Bjoern Hassler <bjohas...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John, dear friends,
>
> Just to add that we've been collecting road mapping tips (and other
> goodies) here on Google slides (in the HOT drive):
> http://bjohas.de/go/mmintro (see p. 65).
>
> We've said this:
>
>
>-
>
>Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) /
>residential / track (not path)
>-
>
>Does it connect distinct villages/areas where people live (running
>between and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential
>/ not track)
>-
>
>Does the road only run within a village or residential area (not a
>through-road) → residential
>-
>
>Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track
>-
>
>Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path
>
> Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs
> are unclassified or residential (not path).
>
> Do you all agree?
> Bjoern
>
> On 21 Dec 2017 15:44, "john whelan" <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher
> zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is
> frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki.
>
> If it connects settlements then according to
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>
> it is not a track.
>
> unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> ___
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>
>
>
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Re: [HOT] Highway=track

[john whelan]

Apparently iD can be invoked with customised presets.

Another item on the TM3 to do list perhaps.

Cheerio John

On 26 December 2017 at 18:07, yo paseopor  wrote:

> I think We need some preset for JOSM or customized iD for these HOT custom
> project or specific zone configurations.
>
> Salut i presets (Health and presets)
> yopaseopor
>
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[HOT] A request that HOT projects in Africa use a custom version of iD

[john whelan]

Whilst working on the Stat Can building project I was made aware that a
customised version of iD was possible.

In Africa one of the data quality problems is the highways being tagged as
living_street by new mappers.  It isn't in the African highway wiki as an
option but it is in the standard version of iD and I suspect that is where
they are coming from.

If the HOT projects were to have a customised version of iD then this
option could be removed together with any building tag other than yes.  The
exact options left would need to be identified but I'd like to see the
removal of highway=footway, highway=primary, highway=trunk and
highway=motorway.  The latter are often used between small settlements.

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] Highway=track

[john whelan]

I should have mentioned highway=path as an acceptable alternative.

What I do see when validating though is a large number of highways
connecting settlements that are labeled tracks many of which look wide
enough for a 4 by 4 and these I feel should be labelled something else.

Cheerio John

On 21 December 2017 at 21:25, Philippe Verdy <verd...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> There may be exceptions if the tracks are not praticable at all by
> vehicles (including motorbikes). They should however not even be tracks but
> just paths if they are just usable by horses or usable sportively by
> mountainbikes.
> Not all houses or even villages are linked by unpaved tracks=minor roads.
> This happens in Africa as well as Asia, but there are also some examples in
> Europe in mountains for some old villages that are nearly deserted, with
> just some agricultral buildings (mostly used as shelters for animals, but
> sometimes occupied to receive walking tourists in summer).
>
> If the houses in Africa are non-permanently inhabited and are just
> seasonal shelters, the tracks connecting them may be in fact just paths,
> used sometimes by roaming animal breeders or workers in forests: the
> equipement is very minimalist (including for sanitisation or drinkable
> water, just collected in nearby rivers) and the rest of the time the tracks
> will not be maintained or could be vegetated. They will become visible
> again during short periods of activity.
>
>
>
> 2017-12-21 16:41 GMT+01:00 john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com>:
>
>> It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher
>> zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is
>> frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki.
>>
>> If it connects settlements then according to
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>>
>> it is not a track.
>>
>> unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> ___
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>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
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Re: [HOT] who can validate in TM3?

[john whelan]

It looks as if mere mortals can't see the metadata section.  I can see
"Validator role required:Yes" but not the level for the validator.

Thanks for the information.

Cheerio John

On 21 December 2017 at 20:49, Russell Deffner <russell.deff...@hotosm.org>
wrote:

> Yep, if you go into a project page as if you intend to map; on the bottom
> of the description is the ‘metadata’ section; including at the very bottom
> “Mapper level required” and “Validator role required”.  If mapper level is
> required, it correlates to the Difficulty.
>
>
>
> Welcome!
>
> =Russ
>
>
>
> *From:* john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 21, 2017 6:41 PM
> *To:* Russell Deffner
> *Cc:* HOT
> *Subject:* Re: [HOT] who can validate in TM3?
>
>
>
> So its done on a project level and each project can have different
> requirements?  Is it possible to see what these are for a particular
> project?
>
>
>
> Thanks John
>
>
>
> On 21 December 2017 at 20:03, Russell Deffner <russell.deff...@hotosm.org>
> wrote:
>
> Hi John, yes in the TM3 you can restrict validation to those who have been
> given the role by a project manager.  You can also restrict mapping to only
> those who have achieved (or been promoted) to Intermediate or Advanced
> mapper status.
>
>
>
> Merry Mapping!
>
> =Russ
>
>
>
> *From:* john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:58 PM
> *To:* HOT
> *Subject:* [HOT] who can validate in TM3?
>
>
>
> There seems to be some new restriction on some mappers.
>
>
>
> Thanks John
>
>
>
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Re: [HOT] who can validate in TM3?

[john whelan]

So its done on a project level and each project can have different
requirements?  Is it possible to see what these are for a particular
project?

Thanks John

On 21 December 2017 at 20:03, Russell Deffner <russell.deff...@hotosm.org>
wrote:

> Hi John, yes in the TM3 you can restrict validation to those who have been
> given the role by a project manager.  You can also restrict mapping to only
> those who have achieved (or been promoted) to Intermediate or Advanced
> mapper status.
>
>
>
> Merry Mapping!
>
> =Russ
>
>
>
> *From:* john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:58 PM
> *To:* HOT
> *Subject:* [HOT] who can validate in TM3?
>
>
>
> There seems to be some new restriction on some mappers.
>
>
>
> Thanks John
>
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[HOT] who can validate in TM3?

[john whelan]

There seems to be some new restriction on some mappers.

Thanks John
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[HOT] Highway=track

[john whelan]

It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher
zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is
frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki.

If it connects settlements then according to

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

it is not a track.

unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] Dale Kunce (OSM, OSMF and HOT US Inc president) on [OSMF] mailing list: "a viper pit of racism and misogyny"; a statement which minimally calls for answers and facts

[john whelan]

Could it be a different Dale Kunce?

Could the president of HOT confirm that this twitter account isn't his?

Many Thanks

Cheerio John

On 18 December 2017 at 17:18, nicolas chavent 
wrote:

> Dear HOT US Inc, OSMF members and HOT mailing list subscribers,
>
> I randomly ran into this tweet of Dale Kunce [1],
> *> "Community. The absolute best and worst things of OSM. Current mailing
> list is a viper pit of racism and misogyny. I don’t know it if will ever be
> a safe place. Even I’m thinking of unsubscribing."*
>
> As both an OSM, OSMF, HOT US Inc member (and the president of the HOT US
> Inc NGO), Dale shall find appropriate to develop his thoughts and provide
> facts to explain how the November [2] and December [3] discussions on the
> OpenStreetMap Foundation (OSMF) mailing-list (osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org)
> translate into "racism and misogyny".
> This would constitute a form of bare minimal respect ought to the members
> of those communities.
>
> Thanks,
> Best,
> Nicolas
>
>
> [1]: https://twitter.com/calimapnerd/status/942596633283448832
> [2]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-
> November/thread.html
> [3]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-
> December/subject.html
>
> --
> Nicolas Chavent
> Les Libres Géographes
> Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
> Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
> Projet GeOrchestra
> Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20 <+33%206%2052%2040%2078%2020>
> Email: nicolas.chav...@gmail.com
> Skype: c_nicolas
> Twitter: nicolas_chavent
>
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Re: [HOT] Feedback on I think mapswipe

[john whelan]

It was apparent on at least a dozen tiles with different mappers.  One
classic one was a highway that ran top right to bottom left, four segments
of highway and three of no highway and that sort of matched the pattern on
the tile view in TM.  Several places where the image was a bit darker the
segments were missing.

There was no regular pattern as you might expect with mini tiling or grid.

My thoughts run along the lines of a large IPS monitor shows the contrast
and image better than a small smartphone screen but that's only a guess.

Cheerio John

On 16 December 2017 at 22:20, Pat Tressel  wrote:

>
> I think the mapswipe overlay has now been removed but what I have noticed
>> is a number of highways in a straight line are not connected up.  You get a
>> stretch of highway then nothing other than a faint mark on the imagery
>> followed by another stretch of highway.
>>
>
> What that pattern immediately makes me think of is that people were
> working within a grid cell, and just mapped the part of the highway within
> their cell, and that the intervening cells have not yet been mapped.  If
> the spacing isn't the same as the TM grid, perhaps some folks are using a
> different grid, perhaps something self-imposed.  For instance, they might
> map the area that shows in one screen at whatever zoom level they're using,
> save their work, go off to dinner...
>
> Is the faint mark on the imagery a mapped way of some sort, or is it the
> actual highway image?
>
> -- Pat
>
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[HOT] Feedback on I think mapswipe

[john whelan]

I'm looking at project 3890 which apparently was prepossessed by mapswipe.

I think the mapswipe overlay has now been removed but what I have noticed
is a number of highways in a straight line are not connected up.  You get a
stretch of highway then nothing other than a faint mark on the imagery
followed by another stretch of highway.

Whatever the cause it means a lot more work has to be done when validating
joining up all the unconnected highways and I don't think its one bad
mapper its apparent on a number of tiles and mappers.

It might just be coincidence and nothing at all to do with mapswipe but
that's not my gut feel.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[john whelan]

In the UK at the end of the evening there is a well known phrase used in
places that serve alcohol.

"Time gentlemen please."

The post that set this off had an element of frustration and it was
unfortunate that the subject was a sensitive one at that time.  With a bit
of good will it could have been accepted as such.

All programmers know that unless it is a one man band they write to the
specs and if a feature wasn't included in the specs then its wrong to blame
the programmer.  I used to be one and I recall once when asked why wasn't a
feature included by a high level manager and I had to reply I specifically
asked if it should be but was told by the business contact no it was not to
be included.

There is a cultural difference between HOT and OSM.  I seem to recall once
someone from an NGO say they didn't need OSM mappers they could provide
their own in maperthons.

If HOT and OSM can work together then there are gains for both sides.

Armchair mapping is only good to drop in the basic outlines.  HOT projects
are reasonably good at dropping in a highway network and identifying
settlements.  It really does need local expertise to finish the job.  So
micro grants, training on the ground all help and hopefully we'll start to
see a few internet cafes and bicycle repair shops mapped which is normal
OSM style mapping that gets enriched over time.

Can we accept there are some differences and please move on.  Can we work
on finding some areas where we agree?

Thanks John



On 15 December 2017 at 17:38, Rafael Avila Coya 
wrote:

> Hi, Rory:
>
> My comments inline.
>
> On 15/12/17 20:19, Rory McCann wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with each mailing list having separate, per list moderation
>> and rules?
>>
>
> Well, the OSM community at large should approve each list rules. Quite a
> mess, having so many OSM fora. Don't you think so?
>
> Why not give HOT Inc moderation power of the hot@ list? If a group wants
>> to run its group according to specific rules (within some limits), what's
>> wrong with that?
>>
>
> Because HOT inc is an independent org. It's easier to have a list on their
> own, like the hot membership list and others, apart from the HOT inc
> tasking manager, github account, etc. Each org has the right to decide
> their own rules of governance. I am fine with that.
>
>
>> OSMF doesn't have a global code of conduct (yet ), but State of the Map
>> conferences do. Same idea.
>>
>
> State of the Map is a face to face event, not mailing list. It's normal
> that there can be some rules to avoid problems with the country hosting the
> event. A mailing list is of universal access. Therefore, what is acceptable
> in one place is unacceptable in other. Some people of one area find normal
> what others find rude. There is nothing bad in that. The huge majority of
> us are good faith people. We just need to be a bit flexible, that's it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
>
>> On 15 December 2017 19:43:43 CET, Dale Kunce 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the
>> HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the
>> HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted
>> CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT
>> communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.
>>
>> As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in
>> this space.
>>
>> My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to
>> think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort
>> to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative
>> space to discuss.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed
>> by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.
>>
>> =Russ
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com
>> ]
>> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
>> To: Rafael Avila Coya
>> Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
>> ; Mapa Nauta;
>> hot@openstreetmap.org 
>> Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of
>> Conduct Reminder
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
>> slightly
>> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@
>> mailing
>> list.
>>
>> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
>> to the
>> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>> automatically made a part 

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[john whelan]

>but it's probably not clear to the average participant in the hot@ mailing
list whether they are automatically made a part of the HOT community.

I think there are two parts, those who subscribe to the current mailing
list and the "inner clique" who are invited to become a HOT member.

Realistically HOT calls upon ordinary OSM mappers to assist things like the
Ebola problem and the missing maps part using the tiles helps guide mapping
so its probably just an image problem than anything else.

Cheerio John

On 15 December 2017 at 13:11, Dan S  wrote:

> Hi
>
> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
> list.
>
> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>  to make clear whether
> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>
> Best
> Dan
>
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Re: [HOT] JOSM and IMAC

[john whelan]

Thank you I've passed the message on.

Cheerio John

On 14 Dec 2017 1:49 pm, "Jan Martinec" <j...@martinec.name> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> From what I've seen as tech support at mapathons, a current version of
> Firefox is the least problematic - works consistently across Windows, Mac
> and various Linuxes. You might need to do the usual setup steps to get JOSM
> Remote control to work:
> - start JOSM
> - enable Remote Control in settings
> - restart JOSM
> - open https://127.0.0.1:8112/ in Firefox
> - see it complain about unknown certificate
> - add an exception for this certificate
>
> From this point on, all should work correctly. (I've seen issues on
> Webkit-based  browsers - Safari, Chromium, Chrome - due to their different
> way of handling certificates, FF is easiest to setup)
>
> Cheers,
> Jan "Piskvor" Martinec
>
> Dne 14. 12. 2017 19:24 napsal uživatel "john whelan" <
> jwhelan0...@gmail.com>:
>
> Anyone any experience about what works especially which browser works with
> task manager and passes through the remote control stuff.
>
> I am aware that IMAC or Windows is a religious choice and would prefer not
> to get into any discussion of religion.
>
> Thanks John
>
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[HOT] JOSM and IMAC

[john whelan]

Anyone any experience about what works especially which browser works with
task manager and passes through the remote control stuff.

I am aware that IMAC or Windows is a religious choice and would prefer not
to get into any discussion of religion.

Thanks John
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[HOT] How do I find the most recent projects?

[john whelan]

and the most recently mapped tiles?

I'm lazy and I normally do more validation than mapping.  If I give
feedback within 24 hours then mappers tend to correct their new mapping and
there is less work for me to do when validating.

If its been more than a week then my rule of thumb is there is little point
in giving feedback.

Expressing my thoughts on validating or cleaning up the mess on a project
that is 99% done and 2% validated would breach the new code of conduct we
have.

Life does get difficult when you can't express your frustrations in a
mailing list.

Anyway if there is a magic formula in the selection I'm missing in TM3
please let me know.

If you're a project manager just starting a new project on anything but
buildings email me the details and I'll probably add you to the list of
projects I watch and validate.

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] sporadic validation report

[john whelan]

If you're using JOSM to validate just select all the buildings (search)
then select within nodes:4 then press q.

In TM2 you could do multiple tiles at once but TM3 places each tile on a
separate whatever.

Squaring them isn't to me quite so much of an issue as when you do it the
alignment etc may change.

Cheerio John

On 13 Dec 2017 11:46 am, "Ralf Stephan"  wrote:

> Hello,
> just now 5 out of 5 people that registered within the last 24 hours and
> worked on task #3939 did not square their buildings. I hate you, iD devs.
>
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Re: [HOT] Buildings and HOT's reputation in OSM

[john whelan]

Can this be packaged up in a format that cynical OSM mappers can absorb?

I'm thinking not glossy with smiling faces but a note in their OSM diary
that we can draw to the attention of OSMWEEKLY.  Possibly through a post on
the osmtalk titled something like "local mapping after HOT"?

Compose it in a word processor first.

ie get the local mapper to tell the tale of how working with HOT / MSF led
to other things.

This I think is worth it's weight in gold and many brownie points.

Thanks John

On 12 Dec 2017 7:06 pm, "Pete Masters" <pedrito1...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Apologies for going back to an earlier point, but i think yes there are
> examples. The OSM Bangladesh crew, while not without original, local
> catalysts, had a resurgence after a HOT project with MSF. While the project
> was very successful (and has had impact in terms of medical care in
> deprived areas of Dhaka), the really remarkable thing has been what has
> happened since, on a local and international scale. The passion of those
> individuals, some of whom had their first OSM experiences through HOT has
> led to collaborations with local communities, NGOs, businesses (who now
> employ OSM mappers), and conversations with local and national government
> departments. If anyone can talk to this question it is them.
>
> Plus, on the subject of WAMM, OSM data is now being used in a Ministry of
> Health hospital in Sierra Leone to improve surveillance and public health
> systems in the area. This is a local, institutional use case I have no
> idea if any of those mappers have gone on to enrich the map in other ways
> from there, but this is a big deal for local health infrastructure.
>
> Do we ask enough and learn enough from those involved in these examples?
> Probably not. But, good collaborations are happening. And, I think the
> microgrants programme is great. There will be some successes and,
> inevitably, some failures in the long term and we should not be complacent
> that they are a golden bullet, but I think overall this is a good HOT
> initiative
>
> I really appreciate this conversation and, personally, think it is a
> discussion that needs to be had... I'm glad it's resurfaced.
>
> Pete
>
> Ps. Sorry if the email is a bit rambling (it's late and I'm tired)!
>
>
> On 12 Dec 2017 00:43, "john whelan" <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I accept what you say Ralph but the motorcycle project is being run by an
> conventional European or North American NGO.  It's organised mapping.
>
> >The result will be a dedicated group in each country that will continue
> the work, train more local people and expand the mapping community.
>
> So is there a way to get this message across?  Are there examples where
> after training they have enriched the map without being directed what to
> map?
>
> We've come a long way with the projects and maperthons simplifying and
> standardizing improving the training material, and giving feedback so the
> standard of mapping for new mappers is considerably higher than it has been
> in the past.
>
> The other part is are the locals trusting the map enough to use it for
> local government type work?
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 11 December 2017 at 19:31, <ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> I am not sure what you are trying to say, but to help you understand
>> “Microgrants” I can explain some of them to you.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am helping the WAMM (West African Motorbike Mappers) who are in Sierra
>> Leone. The lead for this was Ivan Gayton from Medicins sans Frontieres and
>> Rupert Alan (A regular attendee at The London Missing Maps Mapathons).
>>
>> https://africamotorcyclemapping.org/category/rupert-allan-consultant/
>>
>>
>>
>> They have supplied equipment and are training local people to travel
>> around Sierra Leone (at present they are working their way through the
>> Eastern Province and they have completed Kailahun District and almost
>> completed Kenema District) visiting every town, village, hamlet and
>> isolated dwellings taking gps readings to supply coordinates for the names
>> of each of these places, with data such as the presence of a water pump,
>> local market and health facilities. They download this information onto a
>> spreadsheet and I have been checking their work and adding these names and
>> data to OSM. This field work is continuing with local people even though
>> Rupert has moved on to Uganda https://africamotorcyclemappin
>> g.org/2017/11/11/exciting-new-job-motorcycle-mapping-refugee
>> -settlements-uganda/ and Ivan is in Tanzania with Rumani Huria.
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [HOT] Buildings and HOT's reputation in OSM

[john whelan]

A specialised buildings editor idea has a lot of merit.  Less to train,
fewer options to go wrong.  Background upload after each building or set
time.

The problem with Bjorn's idea is unfortunately anyone can lead a
maperthon.  The HOT Training group meets regularly and at least one of the
members has a lot of experience leading maperthons.

My perception is the regular ones have fewer problems its the ones being
led by well meaning people with no experience in OSM mapping who don't read
the instructions first and give incorrect instructions to mappers.

Locally we had one very well meaning person but unfortunately the mappers
edited the map and introduced a fairly large number of errors.  It was
caught and many changes were reversed but that caused more problems as the
students had been given the task as an assignment and some of their edits
had disappeared.  It did all get straightened out eventually.

Cheerio John

On 12 December 2017 at 08:31, Rory McCann <r...@technomancy.org> wrote:

> It seems like there is a need for a specialized "buildings editor". Yes
> JOSM building_tools beats iD now, but how about making a new web based
> editor that addresses the problems you highlight:
>
>  * Can only enter buildings
>  * Uploads (& downloads) frequently. Potlatch used to upload as soon as
> you had deselected an object. OSM changesets can be opened and have many
> uploads. Why not upload every X minutes?
>  * Rather than free form drawing, you can only draw rectangular buildings
>  * Don't allow the user over lap buildings (or auto-merge the rectangles
> together)
>
> If you know your users are doing one thing, then it's probably easier to
> change the software than the users. 
>
> Of course, suggesting things is easier than actually doing them, and I
> don't think my JS is good enough to do it.
>
>
> On 09/12/17 20:59, john whelan wrote:
>
>> Recently there has been some discussion of HOT's input into OpenStreetMap
>> in the OSMF mailing list.
>>
>> Perhaps one of the problem areas is mapping that is less than ideal.
>>
>> Basically HOT mainly maps highways, landuse=residential and buildings.
>>
>> These shouldn't be difficult to map correctly.
>>
>> Buildings appear to be the most problematic.
>>
>> I think we need to think about why we are mapping them.  Is node good
>> enough?  There would be less room for mistakes.
>>
>> If we need outlines and there good reasons why an outline is more
>> valuable than a node then we need to define what is acceptable.  Or do we
>> even care?  and its the do we even care part that is perceived to be the
>> case by some within OSM and that perception is something we should care
>> about.
>>
>>  From a validation point of view does it matter if the building is not
>> square?  Is it acceptable to square a building even though we know this
>> will introduce an element of approximation or error.
>>
>> What should be done with a building=yes that covers more than one
>> building?  Do we expect the validator to map each building or just
>> invalidate the tile?
>>
>> What should be done when the building mapped is more than 50% larger than
>> the image?  Invalidate the tile?
>>
>> We are still mapping buildings twice.  I suspect some mappers are not
>> uploading within two hours.  Getting mappers to upload every 30 minutes max
>> would go a long way to reduce this, extending the tile lock to four hours
>> would almost certainly eliminate it.  Recently on high priority project
>> I've seen in the order of a hundred buildings double mapped.  They have
>> been done within the last two weeks so it is an ongoing problem. There is a
>> new tool that detects these so they aren't the problem they once were but
>> someone has to run the tool.
>>
>> If HOT could support a few more projects that were from the community on
>> the ground rather than the "We are the professionals we know what is best"
>> which appears to be perceived sometimes from the number of projects for the
>> RED Cross or other northern hemisphere charities that might also help the
>> reputation and relationship.
>>
>> So two points here on one message first is can HOT's reputation be
>> repaired and I suspect that is longer term problem that will take time and
>> a lot of effort rather than a PR job.
>>
>> Second would someone care to comment on what is acceptable mapping for a
>> building and what guidelines can we give to validators?
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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