Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On 7 Aug 2023, at 2:46 pm, Timothy Sipples wrote: > > David Crayford wrote: >> Maybe wait until there is actually some tangible AI libraries such as >> TensorFlow, PyTorch and SnapML before blowing trumpets. > > Huh? You *can* run these libraries on z/OS, on zIIPs even. They run on the >

Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

David Crayford wrote: >Maybe wait until there is actually some tangible AI libraries such as >TensorFlow, PyTorch and SnapML before blowing trumpets. Huh? You *can* run these libraries on z/OS, on zIIPs even. They run on the z/OS Container Extensions (zCX) or on OpenShift for z/OS, as you

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> for some reason, I cannot convince anyone else to use it. My guess is inertia. At least they admit that it has been around for a long time. Please tell me that they do! From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jack Zukt Sent: Saturday,

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I have been using ISPF workplace extensively for years now but, for some reason, I cannot convince anyone else to use it. It is very useful when you have to work with different systems that use different conventions for the same type of files, like SMF, SMPE, DCOLLECT reports, SYSLOG, to name a

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

You can do all of those things with the workplace. It has been available since ISPF 4.2 in 1995. If you don't have it on your primary option panel, you can access it with ISPFWORK from any panel. I have been using it for the last 25 years and haven't had the need to use 3.4 since then. The

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

In fact I used to do that; I was an employee at a truck manufacturer for 14 year and had those commands, and a few others, in my command table. But by the time I started contracting in '96, I'd forgotten exactly where to get at the command table, and just got used to typing the TSO prefix.

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 11:16:00 AM PDT, Schmitt, Michael > wrote: > award anyone who can figure out how to effectively use the ISPF Workplace. Wasn't the goal of ISPF Workplace to keep Unix programmers engaged when working on z/OS? z/OS takes away the need for so many of their

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 10:15:01 AM PDT, Bob Bridges > wrote: > I generally type "tso ed " on the ISPF command line. You can easily add "ed" to the ISPF command table (I think it's table ISPCMDS) and drop the "TSO".  Write an exec that TBADDs each command. Additionally, I find I

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Hm, not use 3.4? I still have to go there pretty often, for tasks such as - When cleaning up DATASET-class permissions in the security system, I need to know what datasets actually exist - When deleting old user IDs, I want to pass any important datasets belonging to the dearly departed to

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

You, sir, win the 100 points I have been waiting to award anyone who can figure out how to effectively use the ISPF Workplace. Now explain it to the rest of us.  -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Friday, August 4, 2023 12:36 PM

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I use data set lists in the ISPF workplace (option 11) for similar reasons. I have rarely used 3.4 for decades. -- Tom Marchant On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 13:14:54 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: >No, sorry, what I really mean is that instead of going to ISPF option 2 and >typing in a DSN, I generally

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

No, sorry, what I really mean is that instead of going to ISPF option 2 and typing in a DSN, I generally type "tso ed " on the ISPF command line. Same for VW and BR, and a few other REXX execs. The ED, BR and VW commands run the DSN I give it through RENDSN, a routine that checks the string

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

ITYM ISPF commands. Or maybe FASTPATH commands. Surely you don't often use the TSO editor rather than the ISPF editor? -- Tom Marchant On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 00:22:39 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: >Come to think of it, I still use TSO commands more often than some of the ISPF >menu options - ED and

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Also ADP. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bob Bridges Sent: Friday, August 4, 2023 8:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Right, I think it was "EDP" (electronic data processing) when I started. Or maybe even that wasn't the first one I was aware of; it's been a long time now. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Neither irony nor sarcasm is argument. -Samuel Butler */ -Original

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Data Processing, most probably from DP division of IBM of that time. Sent from Outlook for Android From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Seymour J Metz Sent: Friday, August 4, 2023 12:14:07 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

My mistake, the 370/195 had 2 MB, this customer's 360/75 had 1 MB Sent from Outlook for Android From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Seymour J Metz Sent: Friday, August 4, 2023 12:14:07 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> The one I worked on at a sister (can I say this or should it be 'person' > organisation of CERN) had a grand total of 1 MB main memory! That sounds more appropriate for a 65 than a 195. > BTW: When I started my career during the early 70s, IT didn't exist. It was > 'computers' or

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

In response to your comments and some made by others, my 2 cents worth. This discussion started talking about mainframes and 'split' into sub-threads questioning/focusing on IBM z e.g., z/Architecture, what has z ever done, any uniqueness/special features of z etc. In my response, I tried to

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On 4 Aug 2023, at 1:01 pm, Timothy Sipples wrote: > > David Crayford wrote: >> Other platforms have integrated AI engines, AMD ZenDNN, >> Intel oneDNN etc. Both ship with open source libraries and >> toolkits sadly lacking for z/OS. > > Did you miss zDNN? > Nope, I’m aware. Not quite as

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:47:52 AM PDT, Joel C. Ewing > wrote: > There is a synergy that exists between z-architecture hardware and z/OS > that has evolved over many decades. IBM designs with insight whereas other manufacturers implement. You would never install 1 giant disk on IBM

Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

David Crayford wrote: >Other platforms have integrated AI engines, AMD ZenDNN, >Intel oneDNN etc. Both ship with open source libraries and >toolkits sadly lacking for z/OS. Did you miss zDNN? https://github.com/IBM/zDNN

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I usually tell people that IBM invented really good hardware, and left it to others to make software that was decently user-friendly. The IBM Selectric was great, and that little red eraser they invented for cursor movement on the laptops was - well, I still prefer plugging in a real

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Wow, the READY prompt! I used to be quite familiar with that, before ROSCOE and ISPF. I once wrote a CLIST that helped me navigate the OUTPUT command more easily, though I don't recall convincing anyone else it was better than the raw command. Come to think of it, I still use TSO commands

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/3/23 3:27 PM, Rahim Azizarab wrote: IBM is the standard bearer in computer design even when it came to laptops, just see how well IBM designed the Thinkpads. I hope you mean "IBM /was/ the standard bearer in computer design". I even question that or that hope you mean close to 30

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On 3 Aug 2023, at 2:26 am, P H > <04843e86df79-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > The numbers quoted by Tom: > > So I pointed out there's only 12 I/O drawers max on a z16 which is 12 x > 16 = 192 slots or 384 ports max. He replied, but didn't seem to fully > accept that answer. >

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I seem to remember that action when working on a PDP11 using a VT100 terminal. It was as if the designers said, hey, you obviously want a CR in the middle of the line, so there you go. And to Linux users, TSO READY mode must look really odd when they find they can move the cursor to a

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

When it comes to mainframes IBM is the standard setter as well as the established standard.  I mostly worked on IBM systems; but at one point I worked on a UNISYS system that was essentially a weird adaptation of Linux.  One of its oddities was that if you typed a line and happened to have the

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Oh, surely not! "Extremely rare", you must mean? Redundancy can spot errors, but not all. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The use of Fashions in thought is to distract the attention of men from their real dangersThe game is to have them all running about with

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I hope so, because when I worked part-time with Unix/Linux from maybe 2003 to 2013, I used to have a joke, "If you get an error message that makes no sense at all, check if the disk is full." Not really a joke because about half the time a vague error occurred, that was the cause. When you

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/3/23 12:47 PM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: The hardware is designed with redundancy to detect failures in components (processors, memory, I/O subsystems, interconnection cables), correct any resulting data errors where possible, retry a failed operation using different hardware components where

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Well written. Sent from Outlook for Android From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2023 6:47:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

There is a synergy that exists between z-architecture hardware and z/OS that has evolved over many decades. The hardware is designed with redundancy to detect failures in components (processors, memory, I/O subsystems, interconnection cables), correct any resulting data errors where possible,

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

The YouTube is excellent in promoting key strengths of z in a light hearted manner. With numerours z systems on the test floor during development, testing and product and stress testing the patch panel is key to enable 'any to any' configurations. From: IBM

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/2/2023 7:56 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: You say 192 slots or 384 ports. Not me, it's IBM doc along with Parwez Hamid​, top IBM tech person, redbook author, conference speaker, etc. etc. (retired now from IBM I believe). I understand slots being PCIe but was is ports? Is this fiber optic

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 06:24:15 AM PDT, Rick Troth > wrote: > I think Jon Perryman first asked us to define mainframe. And I bit! > [voice of Leonard Bones McCoy] "Dammit Jon! I'm a software developer, > not a field service engineer!" > But it really started with Andrew Hudson at

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 09:34:34 AM PDT, Tom Brennan wrote: > So I pointed out there's only 12 I/O drawers max on a z16 Sorry Tom and all. I don't recall anyone saying max of 12 I/O drawers otherwise it would have been obvious my number was wrong. Yahoo mail does strange things with

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

615 passengers on a few planes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_configurations_of_Airbus_A380 On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 13:26 P H < 04843e86df79-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > The numbers quoted by Tom: > > So I pointed out there's only 12 I/O drawers max on a z16 which is 12 x > 16

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Cray used a variety of front ens, including DG Supernova. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2023 5:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re:

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

A Cray-1 could use a CDC, or an IBM, or a VAX, and possibly others as front end processors. One cow orker in the dim recesses of my past had worked on the IBM Cray Station software before she went to work where I was. On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 4:02 PM Grant Taylor <

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Steve Thompson wrote: >How about we change from Mainframe to zFrame? zFrame? ZFrame? Zframe? IBM keeps playing with case (remember, it's now "Db2", not "DB2") so even that's risky! >Yeah, I know, then when IBM comes up with a new Architecture... >How long will it take to need > 64bit

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Seymour Cray worked for CDC before he founded Cray Research, so that makes sense. Mike Shaw MVS/QuickRef Support Group Chicago-Soft, Ltd. On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 5:02 PM Grant Taylor < 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On 8/2/23 10:35 AM, Allan Staller wrote: > > My vague

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/2/23 10:35 AM, Allan Staller wrote: My vague recollection of the CRAY was that is used (at the time) a 370/158 to buffer up all of the data so the CRAY could run full tilt. That may very well have been a possibility. I read that the CRAY used a CDC mainframe a it's front end for this

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Wow! I had completely forgotten about Cornerstone and FunSoft. But I had not known how they were doing what they did. I knew, at one time, they were trying to get the ESCON or FICON code (I guess they really meant license of patents). But IBM wasn't allowing it. Then IBM dumped the Tier 2

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

The numbers quoted by Tom: So I pointed out there's only 12 I/O drawers max on a z16 which is 12 x 16 = 192 slots or 384 ports max. He replied, but didn't seem to fully accept that answer. are 100% correct. These numbers are the MAXIMUM. Depending on the configuration, these could be a lot

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

A z/16 has a maximum I/O bandwidth of 128 GBps. The limitation is no the number of channels, but the bandwidth to memory. I don't know if the I/O bandwidth has any impact on processor access to memory, but my understanding is that there is little, if any. The z16 implementation allows one

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> I’ve missed this thread. He first said 1536 ports (not slots, not lanes) on a full z16. I asked where he got that number. Response was there are 12 fanout slots on a CEC drawer (true), so with 4 CEC drawers that's 48 fanout slots (true) which means the 4 CEC drawers could address 48 I/O

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Classification: Confidential I must disagree here. This is just a different implementation of the existing z architecture. There may be some minor omissions, but I see nothing new here. FLEX has been around for quite a while, and was always about z-emulation on an x86 chip. It does provide

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Classification: Confidential Than sounds suspiciously like a "channel" on the mainframe (pick your favorite protocol). -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2023 9:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re:

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Classification: Confidential My vague recollection of the CRAY was that is used (at the time) a 370/158 to buffer up all of the data so the CRAY could run full tilt. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2023 5:53 PM

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

At the risk of being "WRONG" ;¬)) several times, I offer the following. The Processor Units (GPs, CPU, etc.) are PCIe Gen 4, but the 16 slots in the I/O drawer hold Gen 3 cards, up to 16 of them at 16GBps. Each card can support a max of 32 lanes which can be multiplexed. The max theoretical

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/1/23 10:26 PM, David Crayford wrote: When you consider that a standard commodity rack server such as an AMD EPYC can support 128 PCIe lanes and up to 8 memory channels I would suggest x86 can handle a lot of I/O if you have the right gear. I think it's important to note that all of these

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/1/23 22:42, Grant Taylor wrote: On 8/1/23 7:20 PM, David Crayford wrote: What’s the difference between between channelized I/O and a rack of x86 servers connected to a SAN using fibre channel driven by high speed HBAs? I don't know. My understanding is that Fibre Channel is an

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On 2 Aug 2023, at 12:15 pm, Tom Brennan wrote: > > > The IBM z16 can have up to 1,536 PCIe+ slots > > I'm gonna quit explaining this and just say, "WRONG" every time you say this > as if it's a fact :) I’ve missed this thread. By 1,536 PCIe slots, that’s slots not lanes right? Even if it

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 01:18:53 -0500, Sebastian Welton wrote: >On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:53:57 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote: > >>How about we change from Mainframe to zFrame? >> >>Yeah, I know, then when IBM comes up with a new Architecture... >>How long will it take to need > 64bit addressing? >> >> >

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:53:57 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote: >How about we change from Mainframe to zFrame? > >Yeah, I know, then when IBM comes up with a new Architecture... >How long will it take to need > 64bit addressing? > > Here you go: http://hammocktree.us/flexes/zFrameOV.pdf

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 23:09:15 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: >This is former Siemens product, very similar to IBM mainframe. >I saw such machine around 2001 in National Bank of Austria. >Connected to Symmetrix CKD DASD using ESCON channels. >There was at least one installation in Poland.

Re: Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> The IBM z16 can have up to 1,536 PCIe+ slots I'm gonna quit explaining this and just say, "WRONG" every time you say this as if it's a fact :) On 8/1/2023 8:01 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 05:20:33 PM PDT, David Crayford wrote: What’s the difference between

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Take for example an Emulex (Broadcom) HBA. The quad port adapter can handle up to 10M IOPS with a throughput rate of 12,800MB/s full duplex using 16-lane PCIe which utilities DMA. All I/O is offloaded, interrupts, multiplexing etc. When you consider that a standard commodity rack server such as

Channelized I/O WAS: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 05:20:33 PM PDT, David Crayford > wrote: > What’s the difference between between channelized I/O and a rack of  > x86 servers connected to a SAN using fibre channel driven by high speed HBAs? PCIe was created specifically for PCs and IBM z16 chose to use that

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/1/23 7:20 PM, David Crayford wrote: What’s the difference between between channelized I/O and a rack of x86 servers connected to a SAN using fibre channel driven by high speed HBAs? I don't know. My understanding is that Fibre Channel is an evolution of SCSI which is supposedly a

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

What’s the difference between between channelized I/O and a rack of x86 servers connected to a SAN using fibre channel driven by high speed HBAs? > On 2 Aug 2023, at 6:53 am, Grant Taylor > <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > On 8/1/23 3:10 PM, Rick Troth wrote: >> Look

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/1/23 3:10 PM, Rick Troth wrote: Look for channelized I/O, Didn't supers ~> cray use channelized I/O? Also, I feel like there is another slippery slope discussion of what is channelized I/O in this context. then other physical attributes (not just size, not just the instruction set).

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I do not recall Multi-core cpus being part of the initial z/arch disclosure in 1979 when I was at that special meeting in POK for CA. The ideas of the G3 chipset was announced about 2001 at another disclosure meeting I went to in NY (forgot the name of the town, it was not POK) given by Bob

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:54:10 PM PDT, Steve Thompson > wrote: > when IBM comes up with a new Architecture... AFAIK, IBM z is not a new architecture. Intel, Sun & HP invented multi-core CPU chips. Intel invented PCI and PCIe. What is the new architecture that IBM z introduced?

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

W dniu 01.08.2023 o 19:52, Phil Smith III pisze: Sebastian Welton wrote: https://www.fujitsu.com/de/products/computing/servers/mainframe/bs2000/ Heh heh, "BS2000". Reminds me of the company that bought the NOMAD product: Select Business Systems; their domain was SelectBS.com. Wow, make that

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I've been told by some sales folks not to use the M-word when talking about LinuxONE. I feel like HAL keeping secrets from the crew of Discovery One. No relation to Linux One - or is there? On 8/1/2023 12:44 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: Jon Perryman wrote: The last Fujitsu mainframe is

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I had a brief exposure to Burroughs machines in the mid-1970s. I would say that the B6700 was definitely a mainframe, as well as the B6800 that followed it. I've never worked with any Univac mainframes, nor am I familiar with the current line from Unisys. It has been said here that the

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I don't know what you mean, Mike. Access Registers (introduced with ESA/390) do not point to pages or bytes, but to address spaces or data spaces. -- Tom Marchant On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:09:01 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote: >Of course ¿ESA? did create access registers that point to 4K pages

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

An access register points (indirectly) to an entire address space, not just a page. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2023 4:09 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Makers WAS:

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 8/1/23 15:44, Phil Smith III wrote: Jon Perryman wrote: The last Fujitsu mainframe is scheduled for 2030 and dropping all support by 2035. Honeywell Bull GCOS and Unisys OS 2200 and MCP are now x86 based. Are these mainframes or are they PCs? PCframes? mainCs? It is hard to define

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 40TB main memory now, so only 20,480 x since 1999 intro of 64 in 24 years. Of course ¿ESA? did create access registers that point to 4K pages instead of bytes, so 8/16 TB was possible. On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 14:54 Steve Thompson wrote: > How about we change from Mainframe to zFrame? > > Yeah,

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

How about we change from Mainframe to zFrame? Yeah, I know, then when IBM comes up with a new Architecture... How long will it take to need > 64bit addressing? Steve Thompson On 8/1/2023 3:44 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: Jon Perryman wrote: The last Fujitsu mainframe is scheduled for 2030 and

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Jon Perryman wrote: >The last Fujitsu mainframe is scheduled for 2030 and dropping all >support by 2035. Honeywell Bull GCOS and Unisys OS 2200 and MCP are >now x86 based. Are these mainframes or are they PCs? PCframes? mainCs? It is hard to define rigorously, but as someone else quoted SCOTUS,

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Sebastian Welton wrote: >https://www.fujitsu.com/de/products/computing/servers/mainframe/bs2000/ Heh heh, "BS2000". Reminds me of the company that bought the NOMAD product: Select Business Systems; their domain was SelectBS.com. Wow, make that "is", it lives:

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

https://www.fujitsu.com/de/products/computing/servers/mainframe/bs2000/ Sebastian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

My first job at Packard Electric, we had 2 mainframes, 1 for production, a NAS 9000, and 1 for development, a NAS 6650. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, July 31, 2023, 7:40 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: Something that I read (in one post or another) indicated, to me, that Fujitsu was

Re: [External] : Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I actually traveled to Japan to work on an Amdahl machine installed there. We visited the factory where the base machines were built and then sent to Amdahl for their modifications. My time at Amdahl was fantastic. Best technology (PERIOD) and some of the best people I ever worked with. We

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Something that I read (in one post or another) indicated, to me, that Fujitsu was buying Amdahl machines. Wasn't pointing fingers. I know that Fujitsu owned 40% of Amdahl in the late 80s when I got hired. It was a sad day when they exercised their right to buy the rest of Amdahl. I lost money

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:29:22 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote: >Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines, Phil didn't say that Fujitsu bought Amdahl machines. He said that they bought Amdahl. This is true. >Fujitsu supplied Amdahl with their machines I worked for Amdahl too, from 1978 to 1984. I

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

The last Fujitsu mainframe is scheduled for 2030 and dropping all support by 2035. Honeywell Bull GCOS and Unisys OS 2200 and MCP are now x86 based. Are these mainframes or are they PCs? On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 08:40:25 AM PDT, Steve Thompson wrote: I just have to throw this in

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Steve Thompson wrote, in part: >Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines If you were replying to me, note that I didn't say they bought Amdahl machines; I said they bought Amdahl: "Fujitsu agreed to acquire the 58 percent of Amdahl Corporation (including the Canada-based DMR consulting group) that

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I remember that class. Not from Amdahl though. I took it from IBM. Lots of good information which stayed with you. Another one like that was MVS Performance. We went to 909 3rd Avenue, NYC for that one. Took the train from New Haven. Bill Hitefield Dino-Software Corporation 800.480.DINO

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Just the z800! Regards Parwez Hamid​ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Tom Marchant <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: 31 July 2023 22:33 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I had to take the MVS Structure and Flow class as part of my job. It was 2 weeks long and I felt numb after that drink from a fire hose. But what I learned there I have been using ever since anytime I was doing low level programming as a developer. Steve Thompson On 7/31/2023 5:02 PM, Jay

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:33:26 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: >I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean >anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. IIRC it was Hitachi that built the z800 and z890 using IBM chips. -- Tom Marchant

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Me too. I learned more in the MVS Internals course I took from Amdahl than any other mainframe class. Really sharp folks. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 16:50 Tom Brennan wrote: > I went to some Amdahl MVS internal classes around 1990. The instructors > were probably previous IBMers, and just seemed so

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I went to some Amdahl MVS internal classes around 1990. The instructors were probably previous IBMers, and just seemed so relaxed having fun teaching. I had a great couple of weeks and learned tons. On 7/31/2023 1:29 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines, Fujitsu supplied Amdahl with their machines with the MODs we (yeah, I worked for Amdahl prior to 1990) asked for/needed, and then for instructions we didn't have micro-store for, we used FAM (Fast Assist Mode) which we then emulated instructions (part of

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

W dniu 31.07.2023 o 20:33, Phil Smith III pisze: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl_Corporation#Fujitsu_GS21 - Fujitsu machines are 31-bit, based on the technology they got when they bought Amdahl. I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean anything much but

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Robert Crawford asked: >Was the 2260 keyboard the one with two, count 'em, two PF keys? .which reminds me of my favorite bit of IBM trivia: What IBM device had exactly *13* PF keys? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff /

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl_Corporation#Fujitsu_GS21 - Fujitsu machines are 31-bit, based on the technology they got when they bought Amdahl. I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. If you google

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:54:28 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote: >> Why don't we see these systems being discussed (or maybe I just don't >> frequent the right web sites)? >I suspect it's /where/ we are talking. This list, IBM territory reddit.com/r/mainframe/ does occasionally get some Unisys

Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

On 7/31/23 10:40 AM, Steve Thompson wrote: I just have to throw this in here. IBM is not the only maker of Mainframes. Nicely done. :-) I understand that Fujitsu still makes mainframes. That's my understanding too. Does UNISYS still make mainframes? My understanding is that UNISYS is

Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

I just have to throw this in here. IBM is not the only maker of Mainframes. I understand that Fujitsu still makes mainframes. Does UNISYS still make mainframes? How about Honeywell Bull? Why don't we see these systems being discussed (or maybe I just don't frequent the right web sites)?

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

The 2260 had no function keys. The 3270 was available with half a dozen keyboard arrangements, with no, five or 12 function keys. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

480 characters? Sounds like Twitter. Was the 2260 keyboard the one with two, count 'em, two PF keys? Robert Crawford Abstract Evolutions LLC (210) 913-3822 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of billogden Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 11:16 AM To:

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

>From:Seymour J Metz >Yep, "Model 1 displays 480 characters (12 rows of 40 characters)." >Did you have keyboard issues? My memory of those ancient history days (early 70s) simply fails too much. I seem to remember "something" simple we did with the keyboard, but the details have vanished.

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Hah! That's just what I say about Windows WordPad; it does most of what I need (until my writing gets a lot fancier; for serious documentation I use a markup language) without weighing me down with too much bloatware. I may be the only use in the country that uses WordPad much, though. --- Bob

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Yep, "Model 1 displays 480 characters (12 rows of 40 characters)." Did you have keyboard issues? From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of billogden Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXT] Ars

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