On Wed, June 19, 2013 9:25 am, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social,
there appears to be a problem with your mail system. mail which is
clearly from the 1950s is appearing on the ietf list. somehow it has
current dates, so something is header mashing. you may need help with
your male system.
randy
From: Randy Bush ra...@psg.com
there appears to be a problem with your mail system. mail which is
clearly from the 1950s is appearing on the ietf list.
You're right about it having fallen through a time warp - but you got the
sign wrong. It's from the future, not the past.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Dan Harkins dhark...@lounge.org wrote:
On Tue, June 18, 2013 9:52 am, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the
diversity discussion that took place at the plenary.
I do applications and I do security
Yup he didn't apply the Y2K patch ... those missing bits ...
-Jorge
On Jun 23, 2013, at 7:27 AM, j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:
From: Randy Bush ra...@psg.com
there appears to be a problem with your mail system. mail which is
clearly from the 1950s is appearing on the ietf
On Tue, June 18, 2013 9:52 am, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the
diversity discussion that took place at the plenary.
I do applications and I do security and so having a diverse range of input
is critical if the final product is
From: Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us
their work has been ignored and/or shouted down since it doesn't fit
the narrative.
The usual fate of those who care more about the data than the herd-meme of the
moment. For a good example of this in action, those who are unfamiliar with
the
On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:12 AM, Noel Chiappa j...@mercury.lcs.mit.eduwrote:
From: Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us
their work has been ignored and/or shouted down since it doesn't fit
the narrative.
The usual fate of those who care more about the data than the herd-meme of
On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple
people come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't
consider it pontificating.
sorry, just point it out, sometimes you said it right, but that does not
guarantee
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Aaron Yi DING yd...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people
come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it
pontificating.
sorry,
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the
IETF constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to
maintain control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF
establishment so of course he sees no structural problem.
PSA's
On 19/06/13 14:44, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Aaron Yi DING yd...@cs.helsinki.fi
mailto:yd...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple
people come to
On 6/18/2013 7:23 PM, Arturo Servin wrote:
We created an IETF-TF in LACNOG;
Arturo,
Many thanks for the summary of efforts within the region; they sound
quite promising.
Just to be clear, my question was specifically concerning the activity
of the IAOC that Jari cited.
That effort
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain
control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment
so of course
On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain
control in their own hands. Peter is a
On 6/19/2013 8:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to
On 6/19/13 6:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain
control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment
so of course
Commenting is already an action taken, so we thank who made effort to bring
the points forward. I always add my comments even though I had given no
title. However, thoes folks that have been given titles by the IETF I think
they should do actions more regarding this diversity issue as
On 6/19/13 9:15 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 8:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the
IETF
constitution which
On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the
mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model
for change.
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive
for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action.
Members of the IESG, IAB, IOAC, or any other official body are just
folks who are temporarily serving the
On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the
mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model
for change.
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least,
On 6/19/13 7:26 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil
rights, etc.
That's a topic for the ietf-philosophy discussion list,
On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive
for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action.
Members of the IESG, IAB, IOAC, or any other official body are
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.comwrote:
On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the
mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model
for change.
Don't know
On 6/19/13 11:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive
for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action.
Members of the IESG,
I think all need mentoring. It is a both way learning for top and down
levels. So maybe newcomer can be mentoring to management of what is a
newcomer like these days :-)
AB
It is one thing to follow this practice of, for lack of a better word,
ignorance, for yourself but to advocate it as a whole for the rest of
the community to follow is probably not the optimal path when addressing
the diversity conflicts. Everyone has a motive and interest in what
they do,
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On 6/19/13 9:29 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:26 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal
mandates have typically led social change, at least when it
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On 6/19/13 9:36 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change for a
very long time.
You made an assertion that's at least a little ahistorical, you
used it to support an argument
...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Peter Saint-Andre
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: IETF Diversity
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change
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On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change
for a very long time.
You
On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change
for a very long time.
You
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 6/19/13 10:25 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have
been thinking
On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil
rights, etc.
Yup. First the Civil Rights act, then Selma... ;)
From: Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com
it's likely that for a few cycles nomcoms will try to be sensitive to
the question of the underrepresentation of women and then it will be
back to business as usual ...
It's unusual for people to voluntarily surrender their
On 06/19/2013 09:45 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil
rights, etc.
Yup. First the Civil Rights act,
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the problem.
I'd like it if that were true but I don't think it is. For example,
the majority of academic librarians are women (one
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the problem.
I'd like it if that were true but I don't think it is. For example,
the
On 6/19/13 10:16 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
It's not clear to me how this example relates to the IETF.
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men. Everybody's got good
intentions - I'd be very surprised if
On 6/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men. Everybody's got good
intentions
indeed, almost everyone claims that they are a better than average driver.
On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the problem.
I'd like it if that were true but I don't
On 06/19/2013 11:40 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the
On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:40 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we
On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us
wrote:
On 19/06/13 18:33, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
Academia is still one of the worst environments for discrimination.
They don't have formal barriers as in the past but the informal
barriers are steep.
Relating to
On 06/19/2013 12:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where
various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those
problems elsewhere corresponds to any actual problem within
On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:16 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
It's not clear to me how this example relates to the IETF.
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men.
So again,
On 6/19/13 1:27 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 12:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where
various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those
problems elsewhere
On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman br...@innovationslab.net wrote:
To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for
volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the
web page for the mentoring program with all the information is up,
On 06/19/2013 12:21 PM, Yoav Nir wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us
wrote:
We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where
various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those
problems elsewhere corresponds to
On 19/06/13 22:56, Yoav Nir wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman br...@innovationslab.net wrote:
To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for
volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the
web page for the mentoring
On Jun 19, 2013, at 2:35 PM, Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
On 6/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men. Everybody's got good
intentions
On 6/19/13 2:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men.
So again, it's not at all clear how that relates to the IETF (given
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Aaron Yi DING yd...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
Well, if the dominant ones later being replaced by other groups, do we need
to revamp again? What will be the end?
I'm told that white babies are now a minority of the population in the US.
On 06/19/2013 05:09 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:
On 6/19/13 2:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men.
So again, it's not at all
AM
To: Melinda Shore; Peter Saint-Andre
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: IETF Diversity
A little earlier in the thread, ways to improve things came up. I
presented at an international conference in Bangkok this week on the
subject area covered by MILE. While the focus was intended to be more
on how
[mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 12:11 AM
To: Melinda Shore; Peter Saint-Andre
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: IETF Diversity
A little earlier in the thread, ways to improve things came up. I
presented at an international conference
Hi -
It seems as though participants in this thread are operating
with different understandings of what constitutes institutional
bias. A critical difference is whether *intent* is necessary
for bias to exist. As I understand it, institutional bias
can exist in the absence of ill intent, and
On 06/19/2013 10:13 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
Hi -
It seems as though participants in this thread are operating
with different understandings of what constitutes institutional
bias. A critical difference is whether *intent* is necessary
for bias to exist. As I understand it, institutional bias
On 6/18/13 10:52 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the
diversity discussion that took place at the plenary.
Speak for yourself. Some of us are taking concrete actions (e.g.,
recruiting people for document shepherd and WG chair roles)
Phillip,
For the record, there have been several ongoing efforts. First, there is a
diversity design team. We expect some results from them before IETF-87, lets
deal with those when they come. Second, the IAOC has looked hard at the
possibilities for reaching further out in the geographical
On 6/18/13, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote:
I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the
diversity discussion that took place at the plenary.
I thought there are some people following/working this up, and made
some progress. However, I agree that I seen no
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people
come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it
pontificating.
I do however consider your own response to be an example of the type of
exclusionary behavior that I was talking about. Dismissing those
On 6/18/2013 10:17 AM, Jari Arkko wrote:
Second, the IAOC has
looked hard at the possibilities for reaching further out in the
geographical world
Jari,
The only action that's been cited has been holding a meeting in that
region. A number of us have posted comments suggesting that this
On 6/18/13 12:08 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people
come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it
pontificating.
I do however consider your own response to be an example of the type of
exclusionary
On 06/18/2013 07:42 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/18/13 12:08 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
The issue was raised in the IETF plenary I would have expected mention
of a followup mailing list to be made here on the ietf discussion list.
Fair enough.
Not quite. My local ietf@ietf.org
The issue was raised in the IETF plenary I would have expected mention
of a followup mailing list to be made here on the ietf discussion list.
Fair enough.
I'm probably misunderstanding something basic here, because I thought
there already was/is a list established:
Diversity open
Hi Phil,
On 06/18/2013 02:08 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people
come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it
pontificating.
I do however consider your own response to be an example of the type of
I am getting my ietf@ietf.org on my gmail account.
I have no filters that delete mail, no mails with 'ietf' in them in my spam
folder and no copies of 80% of the mails to this list.
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Stephen Farrell
stephen.farr...@cs.tcd.iewrote:
On 06/18/2013 07:42 PM,
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
I am getting my ietf@ietf.org on my gmail account.
I have no filters that delete mail, no mails with 'ietf' in them in my spam
folder and no copies of 80% of the mails to this list.
That reads like you are missing 80% of the email
Dave,
We created an IETF-TF in LACNOG; as you we also think that only a
meeting is not enough and along with ISOC, ccTLDs, LACNIC and other
organizations we are trying to encourage and prepare more people to
participate in the IETF by sending comments, reviewing documents and
writing RFCs.
I was getting ready to send a note that basically said I give up when I saw
this post from Randy. Thanks Randy.
Then a friend posted this TED talk and it landed in my facebook feed. It
gives me hope that there are a few men out there who might get the issue.
I personally would love to see the
At 13:15 29-04-2013, Michael StJohns wrote:
Let me ask a couple of specific questions of you.
I think that these are good questions.
Who have you mentored in the past 5 years? Have they ended up as
working group chairs, or ADs or IAB members? Do they mostly
represent under-represented
I was counting femal ADs. I ment no female names in the AD list apears (in
my understandning I mybe wrong because in my culture some families name
their memebrs with names that we cannot notice gender). As I am a remote
participant I am not aware and may never notice difference. But I can refer
- Original Message -
From: Margaret Wasserman m...@lilacglade.org
To: t.p. daedu...@btconnect.com
Cc: Dan Harkins dhark...@lounge.org; ietf@ietf.org
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:53 AM
Hi Tom,
On Apr 19, 2013, at 6:03 AM, t.p. daedu...@btconnect.com wrote:
If we required the IETF to
- Original Message -
From: Warren Kumari war...@kumari.net
To: Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca
Cc: Sam Hartman hartmans-i...@mit.edu; ietf@ietf.org;
stbry...@cisco.com
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 10:01 PM
On Apr 29, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote:
On 2013-04-29, at
I think the statistics are very interesting and we should continue developing
them, but we should also not be driven by them. I'll repeat again what I've
said before: I can see increasing both participation diversity and leadership
diversity being useful for the IETF. We are limited by various
you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
-- bob dylan
we do not need measurements to know the ietf is embarrassingly
non-diverse. it is derived from and embedded in an embarrassingly
non-diverse culture.
we need to do what we can to remedy this. progress not perfection is
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote:
you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
-- bob dylan
we do not need measurements to know the ietf is embarrassingly
non-diverse. it is derived from and embedded in an embarrassingly
non-diverse culture.
On Apr 30, 2013, at 4:53 PM 4/30/13, David Meyer d...@1-4-5.net wrote:
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote:
you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
-- bob dylan
we do not need measurements to know the ietf is embarrassingly
All of which is why we should limit our attempts to do numerical analysis for
this topic, and worry far more about the basics,
including such things as interaction (in)sensitivities, group tone and style,
and observable misbehaviors, all of which are likely to produce biasing
results.
On 29/04/2013 01:53, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
Hi Tom,
On Apr 19, 2013, at 6:03 AM, t.p. daedu...@btconnect.com wrote:
If we required the IETF to reflect the diversity of people who are,
e.g., IT network professionals, then the IETF would fall apart for lack
of ability.
[…]
If the ADs of the
On 29/04/2013 05:05, Michael StJohns wrote:
At 08:53 PM 4/28/2013, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
The question that people are asking is why the diversity of the IETF leadership
doesn't reflect the diversity of _the IETF_.
Let's consider for a moment that this may not actually be the correct
On 29/04/2013 06:57, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 4/28/2013 10:52 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
Except that the IESG members select the wg chairs, which makes your
baseline stastistic suspect; it's too easy for all sorts of biasing
factors to sway the allocation of wg chair positions.
Mike actually
On 4/29/2013 2:15 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
On 29/04/2013 06:57, Dave Crocker wrote:
Exactly. Complicated processes, needing high quality data that gets
complicated analysis, that we aren't well-enough trained to do well
and aren't going to be doing.
Dave
Of all the social mixes you would
--On Monday, April 29, 2013 09:55 +0100 Stewart Bryant
stbry...@cisco.com wrote:
The question that people are asking is why the diversity of
the IETF leadership doesn't reflect the diversity of _the
IETF_.
The evidence seems to be that human's are terrible at
guessing
statistics, and
On 4/29/2013 9:38 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
First, our having these
discussions have, I believe, already increased sensitivities to
the issues and maybe even how the community thinks about it.
Actually, it probably hasn't.
It has raised awareness that there are people who are sensitive to
On 4/29/13 1:11 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
The other thing to remember is that whilst your proportional estimates
are likely to be correct, in a random process you will get long runs of
bias that only average out in the long run.
Right, although if normal statistical fluctuation gives us
a
--On Monday, April 29, 2013 09:46 -0700 Dave Crocker
d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
On 4/29/2013 9:38 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
First, our having these
discussions have, I believe, already increased sensitivities
to the issues and maybe even how the community thinks about
it.
Actually, it
What a concept.
Irrespectively Yours,
John
-Original Message-
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Melinda Shore
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:52 AM
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?
On 4/29/13 1
On Apr 29, 2013, at 1:08 PM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote:
If raising awareness and sensitivity
isn't enough to get people to think about and make decisions
differently
Statistical analysis shows that even when peoples' awareness is raised, biases
continue to exist, not because the
Did anyone notice the NPR piece this AM?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/29/178810467/blazing-the-trail-for-female-programmers
Perhaps it's time for an IETF equivalent/chapter of
http://railsbridge.org/, http://blackfounders.com/,
http://wisecampaign.org.uk/, etc. ...
Lou
On
At 01:38 PM 4/29/2013, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Apr 29, 2013, at 1:08 PM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote:
If raising awareness and sensitivity
isn't enough to get people to think about and make decisions
differently
Statistical analysis shows that even when peoples' awareness is raised,
At 01:34 AM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 4/28/2013 9:05 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
Let's consider for a moment that this may not actually be the correct
question. Instead, consider Why the diversity of the IETF leadership
doesn't reflect the diversity of the set of the IETF WG chairs? I
At 01:57 AM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote:
including such things as interaction (in)sensitivities, group tone and style,
and observable misbehaviors, all of which are likely to produce biasing
results.
But in which direction?
The same thing could be said of pushing personal or cultural biases
At 12:51 PM 4/29/2013, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 4/29/13 1:11 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
The other thing to remember is that whilst your proportional estimates
are likely to be correct, in a random process you will get long runs of
bias that only average out in the long run.
Right, although if
Hi Mike,
On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Michael StJohns mstjo...@comcast.net wrote:
We have an IETF culture - like it or not. It changes over time, as the
population changes. We can't and shouldn't expect to be able to change it by
fiat, or to adopt as whole cloth a bias free culture (for
For what it's worth, I'm not finding the current discussion is providing
me useful information for making decisions. It doesn't really matter to
me whether the problem is selection of WG chairs or selection of
IAB/IESG/IAOC after WG chairs are selected. I think it is valuable to
attempt to
On 29/04/2013 20:39, Sam Hartman wrote:
For what it's worth, I'm not finding the current discussion is providing
me useful information for making decisions. It doesn't really matter to
me whether the problem is selection of WG chairs or selection of
IAB/IESG/IAOC after WG chairs are selected.
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