Re: Cue clefs

[Xavier Scheuer]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 at 22:13, Gerardo Ballabio 
wrote:
>
> Thanks. It says this -- but it works:
>
> programming error: No spacing entry from BarLine to `cue-clef'
> continuing, cross fingers

Ah yes, I hadn't paid attention to that. In that case, let's add a spacing
entry between BarLine and cue-clef (I used the same spacing as for clef).

\override Staff.BarLine.space-alist = #'((ambitus extra-space . 1.0)
  (time-signature extra-space . 0.75)
  (custos minimum-space . 2.0)
  (clef extra-space . 1.0)
  (cue-clef extra-space . 1.0)
  (key-signature extra-space . 1.0)
  (key-cancellation extra-space . 1.0)
  (first-note semi-shrink-space . 1.3)
  (next-note semi-fixed-space . 0.9)
  (right-edge extra-space . 0.0))

https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/internals/barline

> Just in case I need this for something else, where was the cue-clef
> before you moved it?

See the standard settings in the Internals Reference:
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/internals/breakalignment

> Yes. See attached.

Does it come from a handwritten score or from a well-known publishing
house? Unless you really want to reproduce the score as is, I'd suggest
adding the cue end clef. Gould (probably the most comprehensive
contemporary reference on musical notation) mentions on page 573 of Behind
Bars: "Reinstate the player's clef before an entry" (and all her examples
do it, without exception).

By the way, she also mentions "When a cue clef begins immediately after the
barline, place the cue clef before the barline" (which is
LilyPond's default).

Kind regards,
Xavier

Re: Cue clefs

[Gerardo Ballabio]

Il giorno dom 25 feb 2024 alle ore 22:35 Xavier Scheuer
 ha scritto:
> Add this before the \cueClef (I only moved the cue-clef after staff-bar):

Thanks. It says this -- but it works:

programming error: No spacing entry from BarLine to `cue-clef'
continuing, cross fingers

Just in case I need this for something else, where was the cue-clef
before you moved it?

> But do you have some reference/example of scores putting the cue clef after 
> the bar line ?

Yes. See attached.

Gerardo

Re: Cue clefs

[Xavier Scheuer]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 at 22:35, Xavier Scheuer  wrote:
>
> By the way I would not remove the cue end clef. This is also standard
practice: to "close" the cue clef (back to playing instrument clef).

Actually in your example I would move the cue end clef to the end of the
bar (just before the playing instruments starts playing again):

  \cueClef "treble"
  c''8 d e f
  r2  % if that is what is written in the cued voice
  \cueClefUnset

Kind regards,
Xavier

Re: Cue clefs

[Xavier Scheuer]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 at 21:36, Gerardo Ballabio 
wrote:
>
> It does, thank you.
> Any ideas for the other question (how to move the cue clef after the bar
line)?

Hello,

Add this before the \cueClef (I only moved the cue-clef after staff-bar):

\once \override Score.BreakAlignment.break-align-orders = ##((left-edge
staff-ellipsis
cue-end-clef
ambitus
breathing-sign
signum-repetitionis
clef
staff-bar
cue-clef
key-cancellation
key-signature
time-signature
custos)
  (left-edge
staff-ellipsis
cue-end-clef
ambitus
breathing-sign
signum-repetitionis
clef
staff-bar
cue-clef
key-cancellation
key-signature
time-signature
custos)
  (left-edge
staff-ellipsis
ambitus
breathing-sign
signum-repetitionis
clef
key-cancellation
key-signature
time-signature
staff-bar
cue-clef
custos))

But do you have some reference/example of scores putting the cue clef after
the bar line ?
AFAIK LilyPond follows engraving rules/practice and puts the cue clef
before the bar line (except directly after a line break).

By the way I would not remove the cue end clef. This is also standard
practice: to "close" the cue clef (back to playing instrument clef).

Kind regards,
Xavier

Re: Cue clefs

[Knute Snortum]

On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 12:36 PM Gerardo Ballabio <
gerardo.balla...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It does, thank you.
> Any ideas for the other question (how to move the cue clef after the bar
> line)?
>

Try this:

\version "2.24.1"

\new Staff {
  \clef "bass"
  R1
  <<
\new CueVoice \relative {
  \once \override Score.CueClef.X-offset = 3
  \once \override Score.BarLine.X-offset = -2
  \cueClef "treble"
  c''8 d e f
  \cueClefUnset
}
  \\
R1
  >>
  c1
}


--
Knute Snortum

Re: Cue clefs

[Gerardo Ballabio]

It does, thank you.
Any ideas for the other question (how to move the cue clef after the bar line)?

Gerardo

Il giorno sab 24 feb 2024 alle ore 01:17 Leo Correia de Verdier
 ha scritto:
>
> CueClef and CueEndClef are their own types of GROB, could \omit 
> Staff.CueEndClef work?
>
> (sorry for short untried answer, I’m on the phone)
>
> > 24 feb. 2024 kl. 00:27 skrev Gerardo Ballabio :
> >
> > Hello, please let me ask two questions on the example below:
> > 1. how can I move the cue treble clef after the bar line?
> > 2. how can I remove the closing bass clef? I tried \omit Staff.Clef
> > but it doesn't work -- I guess because, indeed, that isn't the *staff*
> > clef.
> >
> > Thank you
> > Gerardo
> >
> > %%
> > \version "2.24.1"
> >
> > \new Staff {
> >  \clef "bass"
> >  R1
> >  <<
> >\new CueVoice \relative {
> >  \cueClef "treble"
> >  c''8 d e f
> >  \cueClefUnset
> >}
> >  \\
> >R1
> >>>
> >  c1
> > }
> > %%
> >

Re: Cue clefs

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

CueClef and CueEndClef are their own types of GROB, could \omit 
Staff.CueEndClef work?

(sorry for short untried answer, I’m on the phone)

> 24 feb. 2024 kl. 00:27 skrev Gerardo Ballabio :
> 
> Hello, please let me ask two questions on the example below:
> 1. how can I move the cue treble clef after the bar line?
> 2. how can I remove the closing bass clef? I tried \omit Staff.Clef
> but it doesn't work -- I guess because, indeed, that isn't the *staff*
> clef.
> 
> Thank you
> Gerardo
> 
> %%
> \version "2.24.1"
> 
> \new Staff {
>  \clef "bass"
>  R1
>  <<
>\new CueVoice \relative {
>  \cueClef "treble"
>  c''8 d e f
>  \cueClefUnset
>}
>  \\
>R1
>>> 
>  c1
> }
> %%
> 

Cue clefs

[Gerardo Ballabio]

Hello, please let me ask two questions on the example below:
1. how can I move the cue treble clef after the bar line?
2. how can I remove the closing bass clef? I tried \omit Staff.Clef
but it doesn't work -- I guess because, indeed, that isn't the *staff*
clef.

Thank you
Gerardo

%%
\version "2.24.1"

\new Staff {
  \clef "bass"
  R1
  <<
\new CueVoice \relative {
  \cueClef "treble"
  c''8 d e f
  \cueClefUnset
}
  \\
R1
  >>
  c1
}
%%

Re: Is this a sensible interface for temporary multiple clefs?

[David Kastrup]

Valentin Petzel  writes:

> Hello David,
>
> if I understand this correctly the intent here is to have different staff 
> behaviour in one staff. I believe that there might be a more general concept 
> here. Instead of creating a new context and mechanic to set additional clefs, 
> maybe it would make sense to have a more general concept of say sub staves, 
> which would allow us to do the same thing for a more general set of staff 
> features? So instead of
>
> \extraClef #-3 "bass" ...
>
> one could have
>
> \new SubStaff {
>   \override SubStaff.Clef.Y-offset = #-3
>   \clef "bass"
>   ...
> }
>
> This should then allow for similar things such as multiple individual 
> handlings of Accidentals, multiple bar lines, key signatures, lines and 
> brackets, ...

Have you ever seen any of those?

At the same point of time, a lot more needs to be done for an extra clef
than setting the Y-offset .  In terms of implementation, it would be
possible to split much of the work into a neutral "SubStaff" and context
mod, like doing

\new SubStaff \with \ExtraClef #-3 "violin"

but this still does not deal with reseating the current Voice to the
SubStaff and back afterwards, necessary for keeping beams and slurs
operative.  So there would need to be separate commands for that.

So instead of a targeted end-user feature limited to clefs, we are
talking about some fuzzy generic framework requiring an expert to cater
for the particular common use case.

There is something to be said for a more generic name/feature such as
SubStaff in terms of the context hierarchy, moving the necessary fixed
mods into a context mod.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Is this a sensible interface for temporary multiple clefs?

[Valentin Petzel]

Hello David,

if I understand this correctly the intent here is to have different staff 
behaviour in one staff. I believe that there might be a more general concept 
here. Instead of creating a new context and mechanic to set additional clefs, 
maybe it would make sense to have a more general concept of say sub staves, 
which would allow us to do the same thing for a more general set of staff 
features? So instead of

\extraClef #-3 "bass" ...

one could have

\new SubStaff {
  \override SubStaff.Clef.Y-offset = #-3
  \clef "bass"
  ...
}

This should then allow for similar things such as multiple individual 
handlings of Accidentals, multiple bar lines, key signatures, lines and 
brackets, ...

Cheers,
Valentin

Am Montag, 5. Februar 2024, 12:30:31 CET schrieb David Kastrup:
> \version "2.25.10"
> 
> \header {
>   tagline = ##f
> }
> 
> \layout {
>   \context {
> \Staff
> \accepts ExtraClefStaff
>   }
>   \context {
> \name ExtraClefStaff
> \type Engraver_group
> \alias Staff
> \accepts Voice
> \consists Clef_engraver
> \override Clef.font-size = #-4
> %% The break-align-symbol stacks the extra clef to the right of
> %% the normal clef
> \override Clef.break-align-symbol = #'cue-clef
> %% This break-visibility repeats the extra clef every bar.  Should
> %% this be the actual default?  Or should the default just be
> %% the normal #begin-of-line-visible ?
> \override Clef.break-visibility = #end-of-line-invisible
> %% different size for first clef in line is uncalled for
> firstClef = ##f
>   }
> }
> 
> \midi {
>   \context {
> \Staff
> \accepts ExtraClefStaff
>   }
>   \context {
> \name ExtraClefStaff
> \type Performer_group
> \alias Staff
> \accepts Voice
>   }
> }
> 
> extraClef =
> #(define-music-function (offset clef-type) ((number?) string?)
>   #{ \new ExtraClefStaff = "extraclef" { }
>  \change Staff = "extraclef"
>  #(if offset #{ \override Staff.Clef.Y-offset = #offset #})
>  \clef #clef-type
>  #})
> 
> all-clef-properties =
> #(map (lambda (x) (ly:music-property x 'symbol))
>   (extract-named-music (make-clef-set "treble_(8)") 'PropertySet))
> 
> extraClefEnd =
> #(context-spec-music
>   (make-apply-context
>(lambda (ctx)
>  ;; Should be a given in context-spec-music
>  (if (eq? (ly:context-name ctx) 'ExtraClefStaff)
>(begin
>  ;; revert clef-specific settings in case some clef is still
>  ;; issued before the context dies: in that case it should
>  ;; correspond to the supervening Staff clef.
>  (for-each (lambda (p) (ly:context-unset-property ctx p))
>all-clef-properties)
>  ;; All children of the ExtraClefStaff are reseated to its
>  ;; parent context, removing it from the hierarchy
>  (let ((switch (ly:make-stream-event
> (ly:make-event-class 'ChangeParent)
> `((context . ,(ly:context-parent ctx))
>(for-each
> (lambda (x)
>   (ly:broadcast (ly:context-event-source x) switch))
> (ly:context-children ctx
>(ly:programming-error "Not in ExtraClefStaff"
>   'ExtraClefStaff)
> 
> 
> \score {
> \new Staff = "lower" {
> \key d \minor
> \numericTimeSignature
> \time 3/4
> \clef bass
> \relative c' {
>   \voices 1,""
> <<
> {
> s2. r4 r8. \clef treble
> \tuplet 3/2 16 { g'32 (a bes }
> c8.) c16--
> c16-- bes g a
> g8.
> \omit TupletBracket
> \tuplet 3/2 16 { f32 (g a }
> bes8.) bes16
>   } \\
> {
>   d,,,8.-- d16-- d2--~ 2.~
>   \extraClef #-3 "bass"
>   \voiceTwo
>   2.~ \break 2.~2.
>   \oneVoice
> \extraClefEnd
> c''2.
> }
> 
> }
> }
> }



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Is this a sensible interface for temporary multiple clefs?

[David Kastrup]

\version "2.25.10"

\header {
  tagline = ##f
}

\layout {
  \context {
\Staff
\accepts ExtraClefStaff
  }
  \context {
\name ExtraClefStaff
\type Engraver_group
\alias Staff
\accepts Voice
\consists Clef_engraver
\override Clef.font-size = #-4
%% The break-align-symbol stacks the extra clef to the right of
%% the normal clef
\override Clef.break-align-symbol = #'cue-clef
%% This break-visibility repeats the extra clef every bar.  Should
%% this be the actual default?  Or should the default just be
%% the normal #begin-of-line-visible ?
\override Clef.break-visibility = #end-of-line-invisible
%% different size for first clef in line is uncalled for
firstClef = ##f
  }
}

\midi {
  \context {
\Staff
\accepts ExtraClefStaff
  }
  \context {
\name ExtraClefStaff
\type Performer_group
\alias Staff
\accepts Voice
  }
}

extraClef =
#(define-music-function (offset clef-type) ((number?) string?)
  #{ \new ExtraClefStaff = "extraclef" { }
 \change Staff = "extraclef"
 #(if offset #{ \override Staff.Clef.Y-offset = #offset #})
 \clef #clef-type
 #})

all-clef-properties =
#(map (lambda (x) (ly:music-property x 'symbol))
  (extract-named-music (make-clef-set "treble_(8)") 'PropertySet))

extraClefEnd =
#(context-spec-music
  (make-apply-context
   (lambda (ctx)
 ;; Should be a given in context-spec-music
 (if (eq? (ly:context-name ctx) 'ExtraClefStaff)
	 (begin
	   ;; revert clef-specific settings in case some clef is still
	   ;; issued before the context dies: in that case it should
	   ;; correspond to the supervening Staff clef.
	   (for-each (lambda (p) (ly:context-unset-property ctx p))
		 all-clef-properties)
  	   ;; All children of the ExtraClefStaff are reseated to its
	   ;; parent context, removing it from the hierarchy
	   (let ((switch (ly:make-stream-event
			  (ly:make-event-class 'ChangeParent)
			  `((context . ,(ly:context-parent ctx))
	 (for-each
	  (lambda (x)
		(ly:broadcast (ly:context-event-source x) switch))
	  (ly:context-children ctx
	 (ly:programming-error "Not in ExtraClefStaff"
  'ExtraClefStaff)


\score {
\new Staff = "lower" {
\key d \minor
\numericTimeSignature
\time 3/4
\clef bass
\relative c' {
  \voices 1,""
<<
{
s2. r4 r8. \clef treble
\tuplet 3/2 16 { g'32 (a bes }
c8.) c16--
c16-- bes g a
g8. 
\omit TupletBracket
\tuplet 3/2 16 { f32 (g a }
bes8.) bes16
  } \\
{
  d,,,8.-- d16-- d2--~ 2.~
  \extraClef #-3 "bass"
  \voiceTwo
  2.~ \break 2.~2.
  \oneVoice
		  \extraClefEnd
		  c''2.
}
>>
}
}
}

If made built-in, it would affect several files and introduce a new
default context type.

I don't think it covers multiple simultanous main clefs (like sometimes
seen in compact mensural notation).  I am not sure that there'd be a
sensible common interface including this use case.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

> does the new proposed spacing mean that the time signatures are not
> aligned across staves any more but were before?

No, they are aligned as before.


Werner

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Michael Dietz]

Hi Werner,

does the new proposed spacing mean that the time signatures are not 
aligned across staves any more but were before?


Best,
Michael

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

>>> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how
>>> to proceed with the new distances between clefs and time
>>> signatures, together with the new distances between clefs and key
>>> signatures.
>>> 
>>>   https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188
>>> 
>>> The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
>>> widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is
>>> done currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the
>>> most common one, the treble clef.
> 
> A few people responded, and the opinions are exactly 50:50.  It
> would be great if more people could chime in!

Thanks for all who commented.  There was a slight preference for a
wider setting.  For this reason I now suggest a compromise as a final
resolution, namely to make the bass clef invariant, which in turn
minimizes the differences of the other main clefs (treble and alto);
see attached image.  Doing so, the probably most used scores with a
violin and a bass clef (e.g., for piano music) stay unaffected.

If there aren't any serious complaints, I'm going to commit this.


Werner

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Jakob Pedersen]

For what it's worth, I think the original suggestion (with the top-left 
clef adjusted by -4.4%) is the better of the two.


I do understand that there's an argument to be made against adjusting 
clefs that aren't /too/ bad, but the adjusted versions of the treble 
clefs /are/ better imo.


With aesthetics and readability being important reasons why Lilypond is 
superior to other music typesetters, I think this adjustment is just 
splendid!


Best wishes,
Jakob

On 09.12.2023 12.40, Michael Gerdau wrote:

Thanks, but I would like to know whether you prefer the top
(alto-based) or bottom (treble-based) image on

  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188

Top (alto-based) is 6 days ago and bottom (treble-based) is 4 days ago as of 
today?

Of those two I prefer bottom as it seems to be more balanced overall to me.

Kind regards,
Michael

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

> Thanks, but I would like to know whether you prefer the top
> (alto-based) or bottom (treble-based) image on
> 
>  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188

Top (alto-based) is 6 days ago and bottom (treble-based) is 4 days ago as of 
today?

Of those two I prefer bottom as it seems to be more balanced overall to me.

Kind regards,
Michael 

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

> I’ve just looked at the images and especially w/r to the Alto clef I
> strongly prefer the new spacing.  For the others there are spots
> where I’m not sure it is too tight but overall the new spacing
> appears to be more balanced.
> 
> I thus think the new spacing is better overall.

Thanks, but I would like to know whether you prefer the top
(alto-based) or bottom (treble-based) image on

  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188


Werner

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

I’ve just looked at the images and especially w/r to the Alto clef I strongly 
prefer the new spacing.
For the others there are spots where I’m not sure it is too tight but overall 
the new spacing appears to be more balanced.

I thus think the new spacing is better overall.

Kind regards 
Michael 

Mobil gesendet

> Am 09.12.2023 um 08:12 schrieb Werner LEMBERG :
> 
> 
>>> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how
>>> to proceed with the new distances between clefs and time
>>> signatures, together with the new distances between clefs and key
>>> signatures.
>>> 
>>>  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188
>>> 
>>> The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
>>> widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is
>>> done currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the
>>> most common one, the treble clef.
>> 
>> For better comparison, I've updated/added the screenshots in the MR
>> so that you can do a blink-comparison of the images.
> 
> A few people responded, and the opinions are exactly 50:50.  It would
> be great if more people could chime in!
> 
> 
>Werner
> 

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how
>> to proceed with the new distances between clefs and time
>> signatures, together with the new distances between clefs and key
>> signatures.
>> 
>>   https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188
>> 
>> The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
>> widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is
>> done currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the
>> most common one, the treble clef.
> 
> For better comparison, I've updated/added the screenshots in the MR
> so that you can do a blink-comparison of the images.

A few people responded, and the opinions are exactly 50:50.  It would
be great if more people could chime in!


Werner

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how
>> to proceed with the new distances between clefs and time
>> signatures, [...]
> 
> FWIW, I think the Petrucci clef distances are a big improvement and
> make incipits closer to what they usually look like in sources.

Yes, this was the starting point of the original bug report.

  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/3598

However, the distances are actually still too large IMHO;
additionally, the clef should directly start at the left edge, without
any leading space.  I eventually plan to improve that in a follow-up
commit by adjusting the spacing values within the `PetrucciStaff`
(and/or `MensuralStaff`) context.


Werner

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Vaughan McAlley]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023, 07:42 Werner LEMBERG,  wrote:

>
> Folks,
>
>
> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how to
> proceed with the new distances between clefs and time signatures,
> together with the new distances between clefs and key signatures.
>
>   https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188
>
> The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
> widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is done
> currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the most
> common one, the treble clef.
>
>
> Werner
>

FWIW, I think the Petrucci clef distances are a big improvement and make
incipits closer to what they usually look like in sources.

Vaughan

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

At least for the clef+time signature I prefer the tighter spacing of the first 
suggestion. Improvement requires things to change. 


> 5 dec. 2023 kl. 07:39 skrev Werner LEMBERG :
> 
> 
>> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how to
>> proceed with the new distances between clefs and time signatures,
>> together with the new distances between clefs and key signatures.
>> 
>>  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188
>> 
>> The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
>> widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is
>> done currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the
>> most common one, the treble clef.
> 
> For better comparison, I've updated/added the screenshots in the MR so
> that you can do a blink-comparison of the images.
> 
> 
>Werner
> 

Re: clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

> please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how to
> proceed with the new distances between clefs and time signatures,
> together with the new distances between clefs and key signatures.
> 
>   https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188
> 
> The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
> widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is
> done currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the
> most common one, the treble clef.

For better comparison, I've updated/added the screenshots in the MR so
that you can do a blink-comparison of the images.


Werner

clefs, time signatures, and key signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

Folks,


please have a look at Merge Request 2188 and comment there on how to
proceed with the new distances between clefs and time signatures,
together with the new distances between clefs and key signatures.

  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/2188

The question is whether the new distances should be based on the
widest standard clef glyph (which is the alto clef, and which is done
currently in the MR), or whether they should be based on the most
common one, the treble clef.


Werner

Re: using partcombine with different clefs, repeats, text

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

I think this sounds like a use case for a long text preface explaining what is 
to be performed in what order and why, just notating everything on a treble 
clef and doing manual octavations in the midi file. Maybe writing a reminding 
1S,2B: or such (not sure I got it completely right from your explanation) in 
front of each stanza of text. I don’t think the baritone will be too confused.


> 12 nov. 2023 kl. 10:31 skrev N. Andrew Walsh :
> 
> 
> Hi List,
> 
> sigh … here we go again. I apologize in advance for my client, a hobbyist 
> composer who thinks entirely in terms of cutting and pasting, moving things 
> around manually, and not in terms of how to notate anything clearly. Here 
> goes:
> 
> He has a song for soprano, baritone, and piano. The song has four verses, 
> alternating between the two voices (the baritone, weirdly, needs to read a 
> treble clef, so I'm using treble_8 for him). However, he wants to repeat the 
> entire song (ie, enclose the four verses in a '\repeat volta {}' expression), 
> *but* he wants the voices to alternate verses, and the second time through to 
> sing the text in English (first time through is in German; he's in his 
> "Schubert phase."). He wants both voices on a single line.
> 
> So I *could* notate the baritone in the wrong octave and just use the same 
> music for both repeats, but that still leaves me the problem of what to do 
> with the text. And I don't see a good way to do this without having a lot of 
> explanatory text for each verse. This also leaves me the problem of how this 
> is supposed to look in the parts. 
> 
> Do any of you have suggestions for how I might format this so there isn't a 
> lot of explanatory text cluttering up the score?
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> 
> N. Andrew Walsh, PhD, Dr. phil.
> Komponist, Musikwissenschaftler | Composer, Musicologist
> er/ihn/ihm/sein | he/him/his
> Berlin

Re: using partcombine with different clefs, repeats, text

[N. Andrew Walsh]

PS - you know what? I'm sorry: I'm making this guy's work much more
complicated than it needs to be. This is really just a song for single
voice and piano; I'll notate it that way and leave it to him to work out
with the performers who sings which verse in which language. Sorry for the
trouble!

A
er/ihn/ihm/sein | he/him/his
Berlin


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 10:30 AM N. Andrew Walsh 
wrote:

> Hi List,
>
> sigh … here we go again. I apologize in advance for my client, a hobbyist
> composer who thinks entirely in terms of cutting and pasting, moving things
> around manually, and not in terms of how to notate anything clearly. Here
> goes:
>
> He has a song for soprano, baritone, and piano. The song has four verses,
> alternating between the two voices (the baritone, weirdly, needs to read a
> treble clef, so I'm using treble_8 for him). However, he wants to repeat
> the entire song (ie, enclose the four verses in a '\repeat volta {}'
> expression), *but* he wants the voices to alternate verses, and the second
> time through to sing the text in English (first time through is in German;
> he's in his "Schubert phase."). He wants both voices on a single line.
>
> So I *could* notate the baritone in the wrong octave and just use the same
> music for both repeats, but that still leaves me the problem of what to do
> with the text. And I don't see a good way to do this without having a lot
> of explanatory text for each verse. This also leaves me the problem of how
> this is supposed to look in the parts.
>
> Do any of you have suggestions for how I might format this so there isn't
> a lot of explanatory text cluttering up the score?
>
> Thanks for the help,
>
> N. Andrew Walsh, PhD, Dr. phil.
> Komponist, Musikwissenschaftler | Composer, Musicologist
> er/ihn/ihm/sein | he/him/his
> Berlin
>

using partcombine with different clefs, repeats, text

[N. Andrew Walsh]

Hi List,

sigh … here we go again. I apologize in advance for my client, a hobbyist
composer who thinks entirely in terms of cutting and pasting, moving things
around manually, and not in terms of how to notate anything clearly. Here
goes:

He has a song for soprano, baritone, and piano. The song has four verses,
alternating between the two voices (the baritone, weirdly, needs to read a
treble clef, so I'm using treble_8 for him). However, he wants to repeat
the entire song (ie, enclose the four verses in a '\repeat volta {}'
expression), *but* he wants the voices to alternate verses, and the second
time through to sing the text in English (first time through is in German;
he's in his "Schubert phase."). He wants both voices on a single line.

So I *could* notate the baritone in the wrong octave and just use the same
music for both repeats, but that still leaves me the problem of what to do
with the text. And I don't see a good way to do this without having a lot
of explanatory text for each verse. This also leaves me the problem of how
this is supposed to look in the parts.

Do any of you have suggestions for how I might format this so there isn't a
lot of explanatory text cluttering up the score?

Thanks for the help,

N. Andrew Walsh, PhD, Dr. phil.
Komponist, Musikwissenschaftler | Composer, Musicologist
er/ihn/ihm/sein | he/him/his
Berlin

Re: changing clefs in transposed variable

[David Kastrup]

juiceDéLemon  writes:

> hello list,
>
> new here,
>
> i have the following simplified snippets:
>
> music = \relative c' {
>   c8 d e g, a b c4
> }
>
> \score
>   \relative c' {
> \transpose c f, \music
>   }
>
> is it possible to change clef in the middle of the transposed music

Please check your examples to actually run.  In this case, simply

music = \relative c' {
  c8 d e g, a b c4
}

\score {
  \after 8*3 \clef "alto"
  \transpose c f, \music
}

works.  In more complex cases it might be easier to use simultaneous
music constructs (namely << ... >> ) to enter the clefs into the current
Staff .

-- 
David Kastrup

changing clefs in transposed variable

[juiceDéLemon]

hello list,

new here,

i have the following simplified snippets:

music = \relative c' {
  c8 d e g, a b c4
}

\score
  \relative c' {
\transpose c f, \music
  }

is it possible to change clef in the middle of the transposed music

lem

Re: peculiar behaviour with clefs when using acciaccatura on first note in a piece.

[David Kastrup]

Maurits Lamers  writes:

> Hey all,
>
> I noticed some unexpected behavior when using an acciaciatura on the first 
> note of a piece:
>
> \version "2.20.0"
>
> \score {
>   << 
> \new Staff {
>   \clef treble
>   \new Voice {
> \acciaccatura { g8 }
> g1}
>   
> }
> \new Staff {
>   \clef bass
>   \new Voice {
>g1}
> }
>   >>
> }
>
> This will cause the second staff to start with a treble clef and immediately 
> after a bass clef.
> Is this intended?

Issue 34.

The manual describes this situation and how to work around it in "grace
notes".

Known issues and warnings
.

A multi-note beamed acciaccatura is printed without a slash, and looks
exactly the same as a multi-note beamed appoggiatura.

   Grace note synchronization can also lead to surprises.  Staff
notation, such as key signatures, bar lines, etc., are also
synchronized.  Take care when you mix staves with grace notes and staves
without, for example,

 <<
   \new Staff \relative { e''4 \bar ".|:" \grace c16 d2. }
   \new Staff \relative { c''4 \bar ".|:" d2. }
 >>


This can be remedied by inserting grace skips of the corresponding
durations in the other staves.  For the above example

 <<
   \new Staff \relative { e''4 \bar ".|:" \grace c16 d2. }
   \new Staff \relative { c''4 \bar ".|:" \grace s16 d2. }
 >>


   Please make sure that you use the ‘\grace’ command for the spacer
part, even if the visual part uses ‘\acciaccatura’ or ‘\appoggiatura’
because otherwise an ugly slur fragment will be printed, connecting the
invisible grace note with the following note.


-- 
David Kastrup

Fwd: peculiar behaviour with clefs when using acciaccatura on first note in a piece.

[Ralph Palmer]

-- Forwarded message -
From: Ralph Palmer 
Date: Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: peculiar behaviour with clefs when using acciaccatura on first
note in a piece.
To: Maurits Lamers 


On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 8:30 AM Maurits Lamers 
wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I noticed some unexpected behavior when using an acciaciatura on the first
> note of a piece:
>
> This will cause the second staff to start with a treble clef and
> immediately after a bass clef.
> Is this intended?
>

This is a known issue. an acciacatura is a grace note. As David Kastrup
replied in a previous query:

Issue 34 in our issue tracker.  Put a matching grace in the other Staff
to let both start at the same point of time.  Something like \grace { s8
} is perfectly fine to match a \grace { c8 } (or whatever it was, I did
not actually look).  It's a "known issue" in the manual section covering
grace notes but frequently overlooked.

-- 
David Kastrup

All the best,

Ralph

-- 
Ralph Palmer
Brattleboro, VT
USA
(he, him, his)
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com


-- 
Ralph Palmer
Brattleboro, VT
USA
(he, him, his)
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com

peculiar behaviour with clefs when using acciaccatura on first note in a piece.

[Maurits Lamers]

Hey all,

I noticed some unexpected behavior when using an acciaciatura on the first note 
of a piece:

\version "2.20.0"

\score {
  << 
\new Staff {
  \clef treble
  \new Voice {
\acciaccatura { g8 }
g1}
  
}
\new Staff {
  \clef bass
  \new Voice {
   g1}
}
  >>
}

This will cause the second staff to start with a treble clef and immediately 
after a bass clef.
Is this intended?

cheers

Maurits

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Pierre Perol-Schneider]

Right, I did that quickly without checking the whole score.
Also, as I use \fixed, I found it faster to type.
But again, you're right, it's a single voice.
Cheers,
Pierre

Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 18:29, Lukas-Fabian Moser  a écrit :

> Hi Pierre,
>
> Am 21.05.20 um 15:53 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
> >
> > Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no
> > relative).
> > (First measures taken from:
> >
> https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf
> )
> >
> But what's the point in using _both_
>
> - \change Staff (which is needed anyway for the cross-staff stem
> situations)
>
> and
>
> - two separate voices for the alto voice, which is in reality (so to
> speak) one single straying voice in search for a staff with a clef
> suitable for its pitches?
>
> Best
> Lukas
>
>

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Valentin Petzel]

Okay, for number one:

If you name the Staves, i.e. You got something like
\new PianoStaff
<<
 \new Staff = "right" { ... }
 \new Staff = "left"{ ... }
>>
You can switch a voice between these staves by
\change Staff = "right"
Also see
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-keyboards#changing-staff-manually[1]
 

Number 2: Use \change Staff = ...

Number 3: 
You can eighter use brackets as discussed here
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Left-hand-right-hand-editorial-annotation-td161987.html[2]
 

Or you can just add a fingering like rh by 
note-\finger\markup\normal-text”r.h.”.
You can also define your own fingering functions as in
http://petzel.at/rh_lh_fingering.ly[3]


[1] 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-keyboards#changing-staff-manually
[2] 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Left-hand-right-hand-editorial-annotation-td161987.html
[3] http://petzel.at/rh_lh_fingering.ly


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Pierre Perol-Schneider]

So here you go.
Cheers,
Pierre
(typos possible)

Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 19:09, Pierre Perol-Schneider <
pierre.schneider.pa...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> Right, I did that quickly without checking the whole score.
> Also, as I use \fixed, I found it faster to type.
> But again, you're right, it's a single voice.
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
> Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 18:29, Lukas-Fabian Moser  a écrit :
>
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> Am 21.05.20 um 15:53 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:
>> >
>> > Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no
>> > relative).
>> > (First measures taken from:
>> >
>> https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf
>> )
>> >
>> But what's the point in using _both_
>>
>> - \change Staff (which is needed anyway for the cross-staff stem
>> situations)
>>
>> and
>>
>> - two separate voices for the alto voice, which is in reality (so to
>> speak) one single straying voice in search for a staff with a clef
>> suitable for its pitches?
>>
>> Best
>> Lukas
>>
>>
\version "2.20.0"
%\pointAndClickOff <= at the end
#(set-global-staff-size 18.5) % <= maybe a better size ?

rhSoprano = \fixed c' {
  | % mes.1
R1
  | % mes.2
d'4\rest d'8\rest b cis'4 d'16\rest fis gis ais
  | % mes.3
b16 ais b cis' dis' e' fis' dis' b a b cis' b a b cis'
  | % mes.4
a16 gis a b a gis a b gis fis gis ais b4~ 
  | % mes.5
4 ais b8 b' dis' fis'
  | % mes.6
\shape #'((0 . 0.5) (0 . 1.5) (0 . 1.5) (0 . 0)) Tie
b2~ 8 a? gis e' 
  | % mes.7
fis'4 d'16\rest b cis' dis' e' dis' e' fis' gis' a' b' gis'
  | % mes.8
e'16 dis' e' fis' e' dis' e' fis' dis' cis' dis' e' fis' gis' a'!8~
  | % mes.9
1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}

rhAlto = \fixed c' {
  | % mes.1
e4\rest e8\rest e fis4 e16\rest b, cis dis 
  | % mes.2
e16 dis e fis gis a b gis e dis e fis e dis e fis
  | % mes.3
dis16 cis dis e fis gis a fis gis8 \change Staff = "LH" \stemUp\tieUp b, e4~
  | % mes.4
8 dis 
\change Staff = "RH" \stemDown\tieDown
fis4~ 8 b, e dis
  | % mes.5
dis2 b,8 e\rest e4\rest
  | % mes.6
e8\rest e' gis b e fis4
\change Staff = "LH" \stemUp\tieUp
e8
  | % mes.7
e4 dis8 
\change Staff = "RH" \stemDown\tieDown
fis 
\change Staff = "LH" \stemUp\tieUp
b,4 c'8\rest
\change Staff = "RH" \stemDown\tieDown
b
  | % mes.8
cis'4 g16\rest fis gis ais b ais b cis' dis' e' fis' dis'
  | % mes.9
s1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}  

lhBasse = {
  | % mes.1
s1  
  | % mes.2
s1
  | % mes.3
d2\rest b,4\rest b,8\rest e
  | % mes.4
fis4 c16\rest b, cis dis e dis e fis gis a! b gis
  | % mes.5
e16 dis e fis e dis e fis dis cis dis e fis gis a fis
  | % mes.6
gis16 fis gis a b cis' d' b cis' b cis' dis' e' dis' cis' b
  | % mes.7
a16 gis a b a gis a b gis8 fis e dis
  | % mes.8
cis8 b ais fis b d\rest d4\rest
  | % mes.9
s1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}

\paper {
  page-count = 2
  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
}

\header {
  title = "Das wohltemperierte Klavier I"
  composer = "Johann Sebastian Bach"
  piece = "Fuga IX"
  opus = "BWV 854"
  instrument = "Piano"
}

\score {
  \new PianoStaff <<
\new Staff = RH \with {
  %% Possibly:
  \override VerticalAxisGroup.staff-staff-spacing.basic-distance = 10
} 
<<
  \new Voice { \key e\major \voiceOne \rhSoprano }
  \new Voice { \key e\major \voiceTwo \rhAlto }
>>
\new Staff = LH { \clef F \key e\major \voiceTwo \lhBasse }
  >>
  \layout {
indent = 10
system-count = 12
  }
  \midi {
\tempo 4 = 72
  }
}

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi Pierre,

Am 21.05.20 um 15:53 schrieb Pierre Perol-Schneider:


Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no 
relative).
(First measures taken from: 
https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf)



But what's the point in using _both_

- \change Staff (which is needed anyway for the cross-staff stem situations)

and

- two separate voices for the alto voice, which is in reality (so to 
speak) one single straying voice in search for a staff with a clef 
suitable for its pitches?


Best
Lukas

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[R.H.]

Dear

Mark Stephen Mrotek
Pierre Perol-Schneider
Hans Åberg
Lukas-Fabian Moser
Jacques Menu

Wow, the extremely quick response here is more than anyone could expect.
Thank you all for your very nice comments and suggestions. I have to do
some homework to get it right. I am confident with your hints that I will
succeed and share my solution with you. I know, all that counts is practice.

And thanks to everyone in advance who might also chim in.

When I have more practice, I also hope to contribute solutions and answer
questions...)

Have a nice day
Roland

P.S. I believe, I have enough information for now. But as i was asked to
send a picture, I am doing this. I am using the Henle edition from 1960 for
the Bach Fugue IX BWV 854.

In measure 7 you can see the connecting bar for the middle voice from dis
to fis.

[image: image.png]
Another voice crossing in measure 25 also in the middle voice from B
(German H) to Cis.

[image: image.png]

RE: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Roland,

I have set  several of the Bach Fugues. Attached (and below) is the template I 
use. It is for four voices. 

 

Mark

 

\version "2.19.49"

\header {

}

\new PianoStaff <<

   \new Staff = "upper" <<

 \time 4/4

 \key f \minor

 \new Voice = "soprano"

 { \voiceOne \relative c'' { 

   f4 f f f }

 }

 \new Voice = "alto"

 { \voiceTwo \relative c'' { 

   aes4 aes aes aes }

 } 

   >>

   \new Staff = "lower" <<

 \time 4/4

 \key f \minor

 \clef bass

 \new Voice = "tenor"

 { \voiceOne \relative c {  

   c4 c c c }

 }

 \new Voice = "bass"

 { \voiceTwo \relative c {   

   f,4 f f f }  

 }

   >>

>>

\layout {

 indent = #0

   }

 

 

 

From: lilypond-user [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] 
On Behalf Of R.H.
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 5:53 AM
To: lilypond-user 
Subject: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano 
fugue?

 

INTRO

 

A big "Hello" to this list!

 

I am new to Lilypond and worked through the intro documentation. My name is 
Roland Hüttmann from Switzerland. I am an amateur piano player for almost all 
genres, but mainly classical music, currently learning the Prelude and Fugue IX 
of the Well Tempered Clavier Nr. 1 from J.S.Bach, (BWV 584). 

 

In coding I have quite some experience mainly working with the free community 
edition of Livecode.com which I very much enjoy this language and believe it 
can be used in conjunction with Lilypond as it's text processing capabilities 
are probably the best in the market and it is very easy to learn. 

 

My teachers in piano are concert pianists (Denis Zhdanov and Elina Akselrud, 
both Lucerne, Switzerland). My aim here is mainly write educational scores 
based on such teaching for beginners and advanced students of piano, but maybe 
also assist in writing newly composed music.

 

BEGINNER'S QUESTIONS

 

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a 
problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is polyphonic 
with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano voice and an alt 
voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano notation: Tremble (G) and 
bass (F).

 

1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the bass 
clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer to not 
having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both clefs.

 

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and the 
beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or also 
cross the clefs.

 

3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also want to 
indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice between left 
and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a fingering number is 
assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not always obvious. I want to 
either use an indication such as RH or LH (right or left hand), or a certain 
style or color for the fingering.


Thank you in advance for any feedback.

 

Have fun and enjoy music

Roland

 

 

 

 

\version "2.19.49"

\header {
  
}


\new PianoStaff <<
   \new Staff = "upper" <<
 \time 4/4
 \key f \minor
 \new Voice = "soprano"
 { \voiceOne \relative c'' {
   
   f4 f f f }
 }
 
 \new Voice = "alto"
 { \voiceTwo \relative c'' {
   
   aes4 aes aes aes }
 }  
 
   >>
   \new Staff = "lower" <<
 \time 4/4
 \key f \minor
 \clef bass
 \new Voice = "tenor"
 { \voiceOne \relative c {
   
   c4 c c c }
 }
 
 \new Voice = "bass"
 { \voiceTwo \relative c {
   
   f,4 f f f }
   
 }
   >>

 >>
 
\layout {
 indent = #0
   }


%{
convert-ly.py (GNU LilyPond) 2.19.80  convert-ly.py: Processing `'...
Applying conversion: 2.19.2, 2.19.7, 2.19.11, 2.19.16, 2.19.22,
2.19.24, 2.19.28, 2.19.29, 2.19.32, 2.19.40, 2.19.46, 2.19.49
%}


%{
convert-ly.py (GNU LilyPond) 2.19.80  convert-ly.py: Processing `'...
Applying conversion: The document has not been changed.
%}

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Pierre Perol-Schneider]

Hi Roland,
Here's  a template, made as clear as possible, in a fixed mode (no
relative).
(First measures taken from:
https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9b/IMSLP411479-PMLP05948-bach-wtk-ur-1.pdf
)
HTH,
Cheers,
Pierre



Le jeu. 21 mai 2020 à 15:34, Hans Åberg  a écrit :

>
> > On 21 May 2020, at 14:53, R.H.  wrote:
> >
> > I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over
> a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve.
>
> One way to learn is looking at examples, here is one for BWV 861 instead
> of BWV 854:
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/essay/engraved-examples-_0028bwv-861_0029
>
>
>
>
\version "2.20.0"
%\pointAndClickOff <= at the end

rhSpoprano = \fixed c' {
  | % mes.1
R1
  | % mes.2
d'4\rest d'8\rest b cis'4 d'16\rest fis gis ais
  | % mes.3
b16 ais b cis' dis' e' fis' dis' b a b cis' b a b cis'
  | % mes.4
s1
  | % mes.5
s1
  | % mes.6
s1
  | % mes.7
s1
  | % mes.8
s1
  | % mes.9
s1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}

rhAlto = \fixed c' {
  | % mes.1
e4\rest e8\rest e fis4 e16\rest b, cis dis 
  | % mes.2
e16 dis e fis gis a b gis e dis e fis e dis e fis
  | % mes.3
dis16 cis dis e fis gis a fis gis8 \change Staff = "LH" \stemUp b, s4
  | % mes.4
s1
  | % mes.5
s1
  | % mes.6
s1
  | % mes.7
s1
  | % mes.8
s1
  | % mes.9
s1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}  

lhAlto = {
  | % mes.1
R1  
  | % mes.2
R1 
  | % mes.3
s2. e'4~
  | % mes.4
1
  | % mes.5
s1
  | % mes.6
s1
  | % mes.7
s1
  | % mes.8
s1
  | % mes.9
s1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}  


lhBasse = {
  | % mes.1
s1  
  | % mes.2
s1
  | % mes.3
d2\rest b,4\rest b,8\rest e
  | % mes.4
s1
  | % mes.5
s1
  | % mes.6
s1
  | % mes.7
s1
  | % mes.8
s1
  | % mes.9
s1
  | % mes.10
s1
  | % mes.11
s1 
  | % mes.12
s1
  | % mes.13
s1
  | % mes.14
s1
  | % mes.15
s1
  | % mes.16
s1
  | % mes.17
s1 
  | % mes.18
s1 
  | % mes.19
s1
  | % mes.20
s1
  | % mes.21
s1
  | % mes.22
s1
  | % mes.23
s1
  | % mes.24
s1
  | % mes.25
s1 
  | % mes.26
s1
  | % mes.27
s1
  | % mes.28
s1 
  | % mes.29
s1
  \bar "|."
}

\paper {
  page-count = 2
  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
}

\header {
  title = "Das wohltemperierte Klavier I"
  piece = "Fuga IX"
  opus = "BWV 854"
  instrument = "Piano"
}

\score {
  \new PianoStaff <<
\new Staff = RH <<
  \new Voice { \key e\major \voiceOne \rhSpoprano }
  \new Voice { \key e\major \voiceTwo \rhAlto }
>>
\new Staff = LH \with { \clef F } <<
  \new Voice { \key e\major \voiceOne \lhAlto }
  \new Voice { \key e\major \voiceTwo \lhBasse }
>>
  >>
  \layout {
system-count = 12
  }
  \midi {
\tempo 4 = 108
  }
}

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Hans Åberg]

> On 21 May 2020, at 14:53, R.H.  wrote:
> 
> I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a 
> problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve.

One way to learn is looking at examples, here is one for BWV 861 instead of BWV 
854:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/essay/engraved-examples-_0028bwv-861_0029

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi Roland,

welcome!

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled 
over a problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music 
is polyphonic with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a 
soprano voice and an alt voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the 
piano notation: Tremble (G) and bass (F).


For everybody's convenience, I attached a sample picture (from the Alte 
Gesamtausgabe). I _think_ that where you write "clef" (Schlüssel) you 
actually mean "staff" (Zeile or System - note there's a discrepancy in 
German/English usage of the word "system").


1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to 
the bass clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I 
would prefer to not having to do this to make the alt separate. It 
just shares both clefs.


No, in a piece like this (that has exactly three voices and stays like 
this - much easier to deal with than the multi-voice mess one often 
encounters in 19th century music!), it's almost certainly best to put 
each voice into one seperate variable:


\version "2.20"

\language "deutsch"

soprano =
{
  R1
  r4 r8 h' cis''4
}

alto =
\relative {
  r4 r8 e' fis4 r16 h,16 cis d
}

basso =
{
  R1*2
  r2 r4 r8 e
  fis4
}

\new PianoStaff
<<
  \new Staff
  <<
    \soprano \\
    \alto
  >>
  \new Staff \with { \clef bass } \basso
>>

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle 
and the beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both 
clefs or also cross the clefs.
This can be done using \change Staff: 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-keyboards#changing-staff-manually


3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I 
also want to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for 
each voice between left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand 
to use when a fingering number is assigned? Here, this is quite 
important as it is not always obvious. I want to either use an 
indication such as RH or LH (right or left hand), or a certain style 
or color for the fingering.


I never did this in LilyPond, but I'm sure some of the folks here on the 
list will be able to help out.


Best
Lukas

Re: New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[Jacques Menu]

Hello Roland,

It will be easier for the people on this list to help you if you can post an 
image of the score look you’re aiming at.

JM

> Le 21 mai 2020 à 14:53, R.H.  a écrit :
> 
> INTRO
> 
> A big "Hello" to this list!
> 
> I am new to Lilypond and worked through the intro documentation. My name is 
> Roland Hüttmann from Switzerland. I am an amateur piano player for almost all 
> genres, but mainly classical music, currently learning the Prelude and Fugue 
> IX of the Well Tempered Clavier Nr. 1 from J.S.Bach, (BWV 584). 
> 
> In coding I have quite some experience mainly working with the free community 
> edition of Livecode.com which I very much enjoy this language and believe it 
> can be used in conjunction with Lilypond as it's text processing capabilities 
> are probably the best in the market and it is very easy to learn. 
> 
> My teachers in piano are concert pianists (Denis Zhdanov and Elina Akselrud, 
> both Lucerne, Switzerland). My aim here is mainly write educational scores 
> based on such teaching for beginners and advanced students of piano, but 
> maybe also assist in writing newly composed music.
> 
> BEGINNER'S QUESTIONS
> 
> I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a 
> problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is polyphonic 
> with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano voice and an alt 
> voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano notation: Tremble (G) and 
> bass (F).
> 
> 1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the bass 
> clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer to not 
> having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both clefs.
> 
> 2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and the 
> beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or also 
> cross the clefs.
> 
> 3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also want 
> to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice between 
> left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a fingering 
> number is assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not always 
> obvious. I want to either use an indication such as RH or LH (right or left 
> hand), or a certain style or color for the fingering.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any feedback.
> 
> Have fun and enjoy music
> Roland
> 
> 
> 
> 

New User: How can one separate voice share different clefs in a piano fugue?

[R.H.]

INTRO

A big "Hello" to this list!

I am new to Lilypond and worked through the intro documentation. My name is
Roland Hüttmann from Switzerland. I am an amateur piano player for almost
all genres, but mainly classical music, currently learning the Prelude and
Fugue IX of the Well Tempered Clavier Nr. 1 from J.S.Bach, (BWV 584).

In coding I have quite some experience mainly working with the free
community edition of Livecode.com which I very much enjoy this language and
believe it can be used in conjunction with Lilypond as it's text processing
capabilities are probably the best in the market and it is very easy to
learn.

My teachers in piano are concert pianists (Denis Zhdanov and Elina
Akselrud, both Lucerne, Switzerland). My aim here is mainly write
educational scores based on such teaching for beginners and advanced
students of piano, but maybe also assist in writing newly composed music.

BEGINNER'S QUESTIONS

I started to encode the Bach's Fugue Nr. IX in Lilypond. I stumbled over a
problem which I could not yet (as a beginner) solve. The music is
polyphonic with three distinct voices. There is a bass voice, a soprano
voice and an alt voice. The alt voice uses both clefs in the piano
notation: Tremble (G) and bass (F).

1. Do I have enter two voices for the tremble clef and two voices to the
bass clef since this alt voice is representedi n both clefs? I would prefer
to not having to do this to make the alt separate. It just shares both
clefs.

2. At three occasions, the alt voice crosses both clefs in the middle and
the beam connecting the pitches of this voice must be beween both clefs or
also cross the clefs.

3. Besides coloring the different voices for better readability, I also
want to indicate fingering for each vfoice -- which changes for each voice
between left and right hand. How can I indicate which hand to use when a
fingering number is assigned? Here, this is quite important as it is not
always obvious. I want to either use an indication such as RH or LH (right
or left hand), or a certain style or color for the fingering.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.

Have fun and enjoy music
Roland

Re: Double clefs (or even triple) (Malte Meyn)

[Alexandre Ficagna]

Malte, I just changed the musicglyph to the G_change and F_change. So, for
a single code that could be applied to initial clefs and clef changes, it
would be necessary to create such clefs as new clefs?

doubleF =  {
   \once \omit Staff.ClefModifier
   \once \override Staff.Clef.layer = -1
   \once \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
   \once \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
 \combine \combine
 \musicglyph #"clefs.F_change"
 \translate #'(2.2 . 0) \with-color #white \beam #0.5 #0 #1.5
\translate #'(1.7 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F_change"
   }
}

doubleG =  {
   \once \omit Staff.ClefModifier
   \once \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
   \once \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
 \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.G_change"
 \translate #'(1.5 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.G_change"
   }
 }

tripleG = {
   \once \omit Staff.ClefModifier
   \once \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
   \once \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
 \combine \combine
 \musicglyph #"clefs.G_change"
 \translate #'(1.5 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.G_change"
 \translate #'(3 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.G_change"
   }
 }

Alexandre
http://soundcloud.com/alexandre-ficagna




Em ter, 22 de out de 2019 às 11:31, Alexandre Ficagna <
alexandre.fica...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Beautiful. Thanks!
>
> -- Forwarded message --
>
>> From: Malte Meyn 
>> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:23:48 +0200
>> Subject: Re: Double clefs (or even triple)
>>
>>
>> Am 19.10.19 um 14:56 schrieb Alexandre Ficagna:
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > as Lilypond now have double G clefs with the \clef GG I'm wondering why
>> > there's no \clef FF or even more like \clef GGG and \clef FFF for 15a
>> > and 15b
>>
>> Hi Alexandre,
>>
>> I’ve never seen that, when are such clefs used?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Malte
>>
>> > Still, I tried this:
>> > doubleF =  {
>> >\override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
>> >\override Staff.Clef.text = \markup { \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
>> > \translate #'(2 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F" }
>> > }
>> >
>> > But the ":" in the first F clef keep it away from an elegant solution.
>> >
>> > Any help?
>>
>> You could lay a white rectangle over the dots:
>>
>> %
>> \version "2.19.83"
>>
>> doubleF =  {
>>\omit Staff.ClefModifier
>>\override Staff.Clef.layer = -1
>>\override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
>>\override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
>>  \combine \combine
>>  \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
>>  \translate #'(2.2 . 0) \with-color #white \beam #0.5 #0 #1.5
>>  \translate #'(1.7 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
>>}
>> }
>>
>> doubleG =  {
>>\omit Staff.ClefModifier
>>\override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
>>\override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
>>  \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.G"
>>  \translate #'(1.5 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.G"
>>}
>> }
>>
>> \relative {
>>\clef GG
>>g1
>>\clef "treble_8"
>>\doubleG
>>g
>>\clef "bass_8"
>>\doubleF
>>f,
>> }
>> %
>>
>>
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Re:Double clefs (or even triple) (Malte Meyn)

[Alexandre Ficagna]

Beautiful. Thanks!

-- Forwarded message --

> From: Malte Meyn 
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:23:48 +0200
> Subject: Re: Double clefs (or even triple)
>
>
> Am 19.10.19 um 14:56 schrieb Alexandre Ficagna:
> > Hi
> >
> > as Lilypond now have double G clefs with the \clef GG I'm wondering why
> > there's no \clef FF or even more like \clef GGG and \clef FFF for 15a
> > and 15b
>
> Hi Alexandre,
>
> I’ve never seen that, when are such clefs used?
>
> Cheers,
> Malte
>
> > Still, I tried this:
> > doubleF =  {
> >\override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
> >\override Staff.Clef.text = \markup { \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
> > \translate #'(2 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F" }
> > }
> >
> > But the ":" in the first F clef keep it away from an elegant solution.
> >
> > Any help?
>
> You could lay a white rectangle over the dots:
>
> %
> \version "2.19.83"
>
> doubleF =  {
>\omit Staff.ClefModifier
>\override Staff.Clef.layer = -1
>\override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
>\override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
>  \combine \combine
>  \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
>  \translate #'(2.2 . 0) \with-color #white \beam #0.5 #0 #1.5
>  \translate #'(1.7 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
>}
> }
>
> doubleG =  {
>\omit Staff.ClefModifier
>\override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
>\override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
>  \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.G"
>  \translate #'(1.5 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.G"
>}
> }
>
> \relative {
>\clef GG
>g1
>\clef "treble_8"
>\doubleG
>g
>\clef "bass_8"
>\doubleF
>f,
> }
> %
>
>
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Re: Double clefs (or even triple)

[Malte Meyn]

Am 19.10.19 um 14:56 schrieb Alexandre Ficagna:

Hi

as Lilypond now have double G clefs with the \clef GG I'm wondering why 
there's no \clef FF or even more like \clef GGG and \clef FFF for 15a 
and 15b


Hi Alexandre,

I’ve never seen that, when are such clefs used?

Cheers,
Malte


Still, I tried this:
doubleF =  {
   \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
   \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup { \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
\translate #'(2 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F" }
}

But the ":" in the first F clef keep it away from an elegant solution.

Any help?


You could lay a white rectangle over the dots:

%
\version "2.19.83"

doubleF =  {
  \omit Staff.ClefModifier
  \override Staff.Clef.layer = -1
  \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
  \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
\combine \combine
\musicglyph #"clefs.F"
\translate #'(2.2 . 0) \with-color #white \beam #0.5 #0 #1.5
\translate #'(1.7 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
  }
}

doubleG =  {
  \omit Staff.ClefModifier
  \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
  \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup {
\combine \musicglyph #"clefs.G"
\translate #'(1.5 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.G"
  }
}

\relative {
  \clef GG
  g1
  \clef "treble_8"
  \doubleG
  g
  \clef "bass_8"
  \doubleF
  f,
}
%

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Double clefs (or even triple)

[Alexandre Ficagna]

Hi

as Lilypond now have double G clefs with the \clef GG I'm wondering why
there's no \clef FF or even more like \clef GGG and \clef FFF for 15a and
15b

I say this old solution form here:
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Double-treble-and-alternative-percussion-clefs-td19406.html#a19408
Which doesn't affect octavation (as do the \clef GG).

Still, I tried this:
doubleF =  {
  \override Staff.Clef.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
  \override Staff.Clef.text = \markup { \combine \musicglyph #"clefs.F"
\translate #'(2 . 0) \musicglyph #"clefs.F" }
}

But the ":" in the first F clef keep it away from an elegant solution.

Any help?

Alexandre
http://soundcloud.com/alexandre-ficagna
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Re: Double treble and (alternative) percussion clefs

[Alexandre]

Hi Caio, did you manage to find a Double Bass Clef?
Lilypond now has a \clef GG, but still missing a \clef FF



--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: Percussion and tab clefs question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello Joram & Torsten,

Fine, so both are right, thanks for the information.

The file I used is not musically relevant actually, since it’s only a unit test 
for clefs handling.

A nice w-e!

JM

> Le 23 juin 2018 à 12:22, Torsten Hämmerle  a écrit :
> 
> Hello Jacques,
> 
> Just a few additions to Joram's remarks...
> 
> 
> Noeck wrote
>> I guess the pitches are undefined in both the tab clef and the
>> percussion clef.
> 
> As for the percussion clef, MusicXML uses treble clef positioning and -
> obviously - so does Finale.
> In LilyPond, they are not intended resp. not defined for use in a regular
> Staff (see below).
> 
> 
> Noeck wrote
>> The percussion clef might have some pitched instruments, but there is no
>> universal definition (to my knowledge).
> 
> For exactly that reason, MusicXML provides  and 
> for use with unpitched percussion and I don't think  does make too
> much sense for unpitched percussion instruments.
> 
> Example: Open and closed Hi Hat will have the same position within the stave
> and thus the same  value, but different MIDI pitches
>  because they are different sounds in a MIDI drumkit.
> 
> 
> Noeck wrote
>> Finale seems to use positions like in a treble clef for both the tab and
>> the percussion clef. Which is understandable as it is the closest to a
>> default clef.
> 
> Yes. And LilyPond doen't have deliberate settings at all because these clefs
> don't make any sense (i.e. are undefined pitch-wise) in a Staff environment
> and incidentally behave like an alto clef:
> 
> 
> Noeck wrote
>> LilyPond seems to use an alto clef positions for both – which I don't
>> understand why this would be beneficial.
> 
> The TAB clef in LilyPond is intended for use in tablatures only, when using
> it in a Staff, c' will be positioned on the middle stave line (Y-offset 0),
> that incidentally happens to be the alto clef setting.
> So, in my opinion, it's sheer coincidence.
> 
> When looking at the LilyPond clef settings, there's always a 0 0 (Y-offset,
> octave) for these "non-pitched" clefs (tab is not really unpitched, but
> intended for tablature only):
> 
>("percussion" . ("clefs.percussion" 0 0))
>("varpercussion" . ("clefs.varpercussion" 0 0))
>("tab" . ("clefs.tab" 0 0))
> 
> 
> *Conclusion:* On the one hand, it's fine to check the correct output in
> different clefs, but as far as (unpitched) percussion clefs or tablature
> clefs in a non-tablature environment are concerned, they are not intended
> for this use (i.e. undefined) and may produce different results (or even
> errors) in different notation programs.
> 
> 
> All the best,
> Torsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Percussion and tab clefs question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Hello Jacques,

Just a few additions to Joram's remarks...


Noeck wrote
> I guess the pitches are undefined in both the tab clef and the
> percussion clef.

As for the percussion clef, MusicXML uses treble clef positioning and -
obviously - so does Finale.
In LilyPond, they are not intended resp. not defined for use in a regular
Staff (see below).


Noeck wrote
> The percussion clef might have some pitched instruments, but there is no
> universal definition (to my knowledge).

For exactly that reason, MusicXML provides  and 
for use with unpitched percussion and I don't think  does make too
much sense for unpitched percussion instruments.

Example: Open and closed Hi Hat will have the same position within the stave
and thus the same  value, but different MIDI pitches
 because they are different sounds in a MIDI drumkit.


Noeck wrote
> Finale seems to use positions like in a treble clef for both the tab and
> the percussion clef. Which is understandable as it is the closest to a
> default clef.

Yes. And LilyPond doen't have deliberate settings at all because these clefs
don't make any sense (i.e. are undefined pitch-wise) in a Staff environment
and incidentally behave like an alto clef:


Noeck wrote
> LilyPond seems to use an alto clef positions for both – which I don't
> understand why this would be beneficial.

The TAB clef in LilyPond is intended for use in tablatures only, when using
it in a Staff, c' will be positioned on the middle stave line (Y-offset 0),
that incidentally happens to be the alto clef setting.
So, in my opinion, it's sheer coincidence.

When looking at the LilyPond clef settings, there's always a 0 0 (Y-offset,
octave) for these "non-pitched" clefs (tab is not really unpitched, but
intended for tablature only):

("percussion" . ("clefs.percussion" 0 0))
("varpercussion" . ("clefs.varpercussion" 0 0))
("tab" . ("clefs.tab" 0 0))


*Conclusion:* On the one hand, it's fine to check the correct output in
different clefs, but as far as (unpitched) percussion clefs or tablature
clefs in a non-tablature environment are concerned, they are not intended
for this use (i.e. undefined) and may produce different results (or even
errors) in different notation programs.


All the best,
Torsten




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Re: Percussion and tab clefs question

[Noeck]

Dear Jacques,

I guess the pitches are undefined in both the tab clef and the
percussion clef.

The tab clef only makes sense on a tab-staff where the notes are denoted
with numbers (frets) per string.
The percussion clef might have some pitched instruments, but there is no
universal definition (to my knowledge).

Finale seems to use positions like in a treble clef for both the tab and
the percussion clef. Which is understandable as it is the closest to a
default clef.

LilyPond seems to use an alto clef positions for both – which I don't
understand why this would be beneficial.

{
  c'2 e'
  \clef bass
  c'2 e'
  \clef tab
  c'2 e'
  \clef percussion
  c'2 e'
  \clef alto
  c'2 e'
}

HTH,
Joram

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Re: \cadenzaOn: clefs, key signatures on line breaks

[foxfanfare]

Robert Kubosz wrote
> Still I have question refering the breaks: is there any other method for
> line breaking (preferably auto-breaking)?

I don't understand your question. In your exemple, the breakings are working
because you have added the barlines in your \repeat command. Then LP
automatically did the breaks. If you want to hide the barlines, this could
also work:

\relative f' {
\clef treble
\key f \major
\cadenzaOn

\repeat unfold 9 {
f4 f f f
\bar ""
}
\cadenzaOff
} 




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Re: \cadenzaOn: clefs, key signatures on line breaks

[Robert Kubosz]

Hi Thomas!

I added the post via web page with use of  markup. It looks like the mail
engine ignored it. Nevermind, I repost the example:

\version "2.19.81"

\relative f' {
\clef treble
\key f \major
\repeat unfold 10 f4
\break
\repeat unfold 10 g4
\cadenzaOff
}
\layout {
\context {
\Staff
\remove Time_signature_engraver
\remove Bar_engraver
}
}

@foxfanfare, your snippet showed me, that I needlessly removed bar engraver
and it was the problem. Silly me. Thanks!
Still I have question refering the breaks: is there any other method for
line breaking (preferably auto-breaking)?
Say, I have a snippet:
\version "2.19.81"

\version "2.19.81"

\relative f' {
\clef treble
\key f \major
\cadenzaOn

\repeat unfold 9 {
f4 f f f
\bar"|"
}
\cadenzaOff
}
And it will produce a line with tightly packed notes. Is there some hack,
that it will break automatically the line in cadenza mode, like it happens
in normal mode?





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Re: \cadenzaOn: clefs, key signatures on line breaks

[Thomas Morley]

2018-05-13 18:30 GMT+02:00 Robert Kubosz :
> The example below

Hello,

there is no code visible for me in your mail.
Neither here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2018-05/msg00317.html

Please provide plain text mails or attach a file or a link to it.

Thanks,
  Harm

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Re: \cadenzaOn: clefs, key signatures on line breaks

[foxfanfare]

Robert Kubosz wrote
> Hello!
> I write a music piece with \cadenzaOn and \cadenzaOff. The example below
> produces output without the clef and key signature after line break. Is
> there a possibility to display them? 
> Also, I have second question: can the lines auto break in cadenza mode?
> 
> With best regards
> Robert

Hi Robert. I don't understand your problem, cadenzaOn will produce the clefs
and time signature after line breaks by default! 
I think your exemple is missing the "cadenzaOn" btw.

\version "2.19.81"

\relative f' {
\cadenzaOn
\clef treble
\key f \major
\repeat unfold 20 f4
\bar "" \break
\repeat unfold 20 g4
\cadenzaOff
}

For the lines, they don't break automatically. You'll have to write an
invisible bar before making the break (see above).

All the best.



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\cadenzaOn: clefs, key signatures on line breaks

[Robert Kubosz]

Hello!
I write a music piece with \cadenzaOn and \cadenzaOff. The example below
produces output without the clef and key signature after line break. Is
there a possibility to display them? 
Also, I have second question: can the lines auto break in cadenza mode?

With best regards
Robert





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Re: Clefs

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Ethan,

I am transcribing some baroque canons. Does anyone know how to make 
upside down/backwards clefs?


How about:

\version "2.19.80"

rotClef = #(define-music-function
    (line cl)
    (number? string?)
    #{
  \once \override Staff.Clef.stencil =
  #(lambda (grob)
 (ly:stencil-rotate-absolute (ly:clef::print grob) 180 
0 0))

  \once \override Staff.Clef.full-size-change = ##t
  \once \override Staff.Clef.Y-offset = #line
  \once \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
  \clef #cl
    #}
    )


\new Staff {
  \clef tenor
  d2 e f g
  \rotClef -1 tenor
}

The number -1 indicates "one line below middle".

CAVEAT: With this solution, after the rotated clef has been issued, 
pitches will be typeset according to the standard meaning of the given clef.


Best
Lukas


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Re: Clefs

[Shane Brandes]

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/musoffcanons.html


On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Ben <soundsfromso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/4/2018 8:29 PM, Shane Brandes wrote:
>
> No it is a mirror image that indicates retrograde. Not on that page.
>
> S.
>
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Ben <soundsfromso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 4/4/2018 6:04 PM, Ethan Sue wrote:
>
> Hello
> I am transcribing some baroque canons. Does anyone know how to make upside
> down/backwards clefs?
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Do you have a picture of what exactly you mean?
> Is the clef you want featured anywhere on this page?
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/clef-styles
>
>
>
> Do have you a photo of the clef?
>
>

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Re: Clefs

[Ben]

On 4/4/2018 8:29 PM, Shane Brandes wrote:

No it is a mirror image that indicates retrograde. Not on that page.

S.

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Ben <soundsfromso...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/4/2018 6:04 PM, Ethan Sue wrote:

Hello
I am transcribing some baroque canons. Does anyone know how to make upside
down/backwards clefs?



Hello,

Do you have a picture of what exactly you mean?
Is the clef you want featured anywhere on this page?

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/clef-styles




Do have you a photo of the clef?


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Re: Clefs

[Shane Brandes]

No it is a mirror image that indicates retrograde. Not on that page.

S.

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Ben <soundsfromso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/4/2018 6:04 PM, Ethan Sue wrote:
>
> Hello
> I am transcribing some baroque canons. Does anyone know how to make upside
> down/backwards clefs?
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Do you have a picture of what exactly you mean?
> Is the clef you want featured anywhere on this page?
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/clef-styles
>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>

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Re: Clefs

[Ben]

On 4/4/2018 6:04 PM, Ethan Sue wrote:

Hello
I am transcribing some baroque canons. Does anyone know how to make 
upside down/backwards clefs?





Hello,

Do you have a picture of what exactly you mean?
Is the clef you want featured anywhere on this page?

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/clef-styles


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Clefs

[Ethan Sue]

Hello
I am transcribing some baroque canons. Does anyone know how to make upside
down/backwards clefs?
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Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning of staff cause extra clefs in other staffs

[shane]

At this point shouldn't it be called a feature?
Shane


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Thomas Morley 
<thomasmorle...@gmail.com> Date: 3/10/18  7:57 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Lucas 
Werkmeister <m...@lucaswerkmeister.de> Cc: lilypond-user 
<lilypond-user@gnu.org> Subject: Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning 
of staff cause extra
clefs in other staffs 
2018-03-11 0:58 GMT+01:00 Lucas Werkmeister <m...@lucaswerkmeister.de>:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I found what I suspect is a LilyPond bug, but I’m not sure yet :) minimal
> example:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> <<
>   \new Staff { \grace c' c' }
>   \new Staff { \clef "bass" }
>>>
>
> Instead of beginning with a bass clef, the lower staff begins with a violin
> clef and then has a bass clef right after the time signature. If a different
> key signature is set (omitted in the above example for brevity), the
> accidentals are only printed after that extra clef as well, and the whole
> group (bass clef and accidentals) is shifted to the left so that it overlaps
> the time signature.
>
> This seems to happen when the two staves begin with different amounts of
> grace notes. A workaround is to add a silent grace note to the lower staff
> (\grace s) – just make sure that it’s the same duration as the real grace
> note in the upper staff: if it’s longer (e. g. a simple \grace s without
> explicit duration if the current duration is 4 and the duration of the other
> grace note is 8), then the upper staff will have the same problem instead
> (extra clef – same as the original one in this case – and accidentals only
> after that).
>
> Unfortunately, I’m unable to check if this still happens in the current
> development version of LilyPond since I’m getting an error when building
> from Git, but that’s for a different email :) perhaps someone else can check
> that, so I don’t open a bug report for something that’s already fixed? (Or
> perhaps it’s simply expected that grace notes should be aligned between
> staves? But that would surprise me.)
>
> Oh, and for the sake of people googling for this error – it also affects
> \acciaccatura, \appoggiatura and \slashedGrace.
>
> Cheers,
> Lucas


It's issue 34
https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/34/
Likely our most infamous bug, not fixed.

The workaround you've found is mentioned in the docs ;)
Search for grace synchronization.

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning of staff cause extra clefs in other staffs

[shane]

At this point shouldn't it be called a feature?
Shane


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Thomas Morley 
<thomasmorle...@gmail.com> Date: 3/10/18  7:57 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Lucas 
Werkmeister <m...@lucaswerkmeister.de> Cc: lilypond-user 
<lilypond-user@gnu.org> Subject: Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning 
of staff cause extra
clefs in other staffs 
2018-03-11 0:58 GMT+01:00 Lucas Werkmeister <m...@lucaswerkmeister.de>:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I found what I suspect is a LilyPond bug, but I’m not sure yet :) minimal
> example:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> <<
>   \new Staff { \grace c' c' }
>   \new Staff { \clef "bass" }
>>>
>
> Instead of beginning with a bass clef, the lower staff begins with a violin
> clef and then has a bass clef right after the time signature. If a different
> key signature is set (omitted in the above example for brevity), the
> accidentals are only printed after that extra clef as well, and the whole
> group (bass clef and accidentals) is shifted to the left so that it overlaps
> the time signature.
>
> This seems to happen when the two staves begin with different amounts of
> grace notes. A workaround is to add a silent grace note to the lower staff
> (\grace s) – just make sure that it’s the same duration as the real grace
> note in the upper staff: if it’s longer (e. g. a simple \grace s without
> explicit duration if the current duration is 4 and the duration of the other
> grace note is 8), then the upper staff will have the same problem instead
> (extra clef – same as the original one in this case – and accidentals only
> after that).
>
> Unfortunately, I’m unable to check if this still happens in the current
> development version of LilyPond since I’m getting an error when building
> from Git, but that’s for a different email :) perhaps someone else can check
> that, so I don’t open a bug report for something that’s already fixed? (Or
> perhaps it’s simply expected that grace notes should be aligned between
> staves? But that would surprise me.)
>
> Oh, and for the sake of people googling for this error – it also affects
> \acciaccatura, \appoggiatura and \slashedGrace.
>
> Cheers,
> Lucas


It's issue 34
https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/34/
Likely our most infamous bug, not fixed.

The workaround you've found is mentioned in the docs ;)
Search for grace synchronization.

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning of staff cause extra clefs in other staffs

[Thomas Morley]

2018-03-11 0:58 GMT+01:00 Lucas Werkmeister :
> Hi everyone,
>
> I found what I suspect is a LilyPond bug, but I’m not sure yet :) minimal
> example:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> <<
>   \new Staff { \grace c' c' }
>   \new Staff { \clef "bass" }
>>>
>
> Instead of beginning with a bass clef, the lower staff begins with a violin
> clef and then has a bass clef right after the time signature. If a different
> key signature is set (omitted in the above example for brevity), the
> accidentals are only printed after that extra clef as well, and the whole
> group (bass clef and accidentals) is shifted to the left so that it overlaps
> the time signature.
>
> This seems to happen when the two staves begin with different amounts of
> grace notes. A workaround is to add a silent grace note to the lower staff
> (\grace s) – just make sure that it’s the same duration as the real grace
> note in the upper staff: if it’s longer (e. g. a simple \grace s without
> explicit duration if the current duration is 4 and the duration of the other
> grace note is 8), then the upper staff will have the same problem instead
> (extra clef – same as the original one in this case – and accidentals only
> after that).
>
> Unfortunately, I’m unable to check if this still happens in the current
> development version of LilyPond since I’m getting an error when building
> from Git, but that’s for a different email :) perhaps someone else can check
> that, so I don’t open a bug report for something that’s already fixed? (Or
> perhaps it’s simply expected that grace notes should be aligned between
> staves? But that would surprise me.)
>
> Oh, and for the sake of people googling for this error – it also affects
> \acciaccatura, \appoggiatura and \slashedGrace.
>
> Cheers,
> Lucas


It's issue 34
https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/34/
Likely our most infamous bug, not fixed.

The workaround you've found is mentioned in the docs ;)
Search for grace synchronization.

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning of staff cause extra clefs in other staffs

[Lucas Werkmeister]

On 11.03.2018 01:29, Lucas Werkmeister wrote:
> I’m not sure if the clef behavior would still qualify as a bug (in the
> docs, the grace note isn’t at the very beginning of the score, so the
> clef behavior doesn’t happen)
And it turns out this has also been described [1]. I must just have been
searching for the completely wrong terms earlier, because now I found
these two links on the problem within minutes of each other while
searching for a solution to a *different* grace note problem… sorry
again for the noise, I think this thread is really done now.

Cheers,
Lucas

[1]:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37037679/lilypond-grace-note-affects-formatting
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Re: Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning of staff cause extra clefs in other staffs

[Lucas Werkmeister]

On 11.03.2018 00:58, Lucas Werkmeister wrote:
> (Or perhaps it’s simply expected that grace notes should be aligned
> between staves? But that would surprise me.)
Color me surprised, then – I just found this issue mentioned in the docs
[1], with the same workaround I also discovered. I’m not sure if the
clef behavior would still qualify as a bug (in the docs, the grace note
isn’t at the very beginning of the score, so the clef behavior doesn’t
happen) – if not, sorry for the noise :D

Cheers,
Lucas

[1]:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/special-rhythmic-concerns#Known-issues-and-warnings-71
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Bug? Mismatched grace notes at beginning of staff cause extra clefs in other staffs

[Lucas Werkmeister]

Hi everyone,

I found what I suspect is a LilyPond bug, but I’m not sure yet :)
minimal example:

\version "2.18.2"

<<
  \new Staff { \grace c' c' }
  \new Staff { \clef "bass" }
>>

Instead of beginning with a bass clef, the lower staff begins with a
violin clef and then has a bass clef right after the time signature. If
a different key signature is set (omitted in the above example for
brevity), the accidentals are only printed after that extra clef as
well, and the whole group (bass clef and accidentals) is shifted to the
left so that it overlaps the time signature.

This seems to happen when the two staves begin with different amounts of
grace notes. A workaround is to add a silent grace note to the lower
staff (\grace s) – just make sure that it’s the same duration as the
real grace note in the upper staff: if it’s longer (e. g. a simple
\grace s without explicit duration if the current duration is 4 and the
duration of the other grace note is 8), then the upper staff will have
the same problem instead (extra clef – same as the original one in this
case – and accidentals only after that).

Unfortunately, I’m unable to check if this still happens in the current
development version of LilyPond since I’m getting an error when building
from Git, but that’s for a different email :) perhaps someone else can
check that, so I don’t open a bug report for something that’s already
fixed? (Or perhaps it’s simply expected that grace notes should be
aligned between staves? But that would surprise me.)

Oh, and for the sake of people googling for this error – it also affects
\acciaccatura, \appoggiatura and \slashedGrace.

Cheers,
Lucas

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Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Thomas,

That's a brilliant subversion of the \afterGrace command - I hadn't realised 
you could use it for anything but notes!

I think I need a good course on lateral thinking.

I'd come up with this, which puts the treble clef at the beginning of the 
repeated section - as I said earlier I don't
know what's best. We really need a music typography expert on this discussion 
to come up with the "best" solution.

Incidentally, I tried to parenthesize the treble clef in bar 4, but it didn't 
work. Any idea why?

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"


\new Staff {
  \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
  \time 4/4
  \clef "treble"  c''1
  \clef "bass" c
  \clef "treble" c''
  \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 3 
'(staff-bar clef ))
  \repeat volta 2 {\clef "treble" c'' }
  \alternative {
{ c'' \clef "bass" c }
{ \set Staff.forceClef = ##t

  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
  \clef "bass" c }
  }
}

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, February 20, 2018, 9:56:08 PM, Thomas Morley wrote:


 How about:

\new Staff {
 \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
 \time 4/4
 \clef "treble"  c''1
 \clef "bass" c
 \clef "treble" c''

 \repeat volta 2 { c'' }
 \alternative {
   { 
  c'' 
  \clef "bass" 
  \afterGrace 
c 
{
 \once \override Staff.Clef.X-extent = #'(-0.5 . -0.5)
\clef "treble" 
}
   }
   { 
  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = 
  #(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
  \clef "bass" c 
   }
 }
}

Cheers,
  Harm
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Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Thomas Morley]

2018-02-20 11:08 GMT+01:00 Peter Toye :

> Mark,
>
> This works for my example as given, but not for the following one. Here
> the problem is that two clef changes are needed:
>
> 1) for the repeat from bass to treble (bar 6 back to 4), and
> 2) one for the continuation, from treble to bass (from 3 on to 7).
>
> LP sees the bass clef in bar 6 and thinks that it's not needed for bar 7.
> But the performer goes straight from bar 4 to bar 7 and doesn't see the
> bass clef. Also, when repeating after bar 6, the performer doesn't see any
> clef change, and after the clef changes in bars 1-3 won't remember what
> clef they are meant to be in.
>
> I'm a performer and occasional arranger, not a musical typographer, so
> don't know the solution, but it would seem to me that there should be one
> fundamental rule: the flow of the music as performed should have all clef
> changes marked without the performer having to remember anything.
>
> (1) could be solved by a courtesy treble clef (in brackets?) at the
> beginning of bar 4.
> (2) needs a bass clef at the beginning or bar 7
>
> How this can be achieved is way outside my competence.
>
> \version "2.19.52"
>
> \language "english"
>
> \new Staff {
>  \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
>  \time 4/4
>  \clef "treble"  c''1
>  \clef "bass" c
>  \clef "treble" c''
>
>  \repeat volta 2 { c'' }
>  \alternative {
>{ c'' \clef "bass" c }
>{ \clef "bass" c }
>  }
> }
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Peter
>

 How about:

\new Staff {
 \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
 \time 4/4
 \clef "treble"  c''1
 \clef "bass" c
 \clef "treble" c''

 \repeat volta 2 { c'' }
 \alternative {
   {
  c''
  \clef "bass"
  \afterGrace
c
{
 \once \override Staff.Clef.X-extent = #'(-0.5 . -0.5)
\clef "treble"
}
   }
   {
  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
  #(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
  \clef "bass" c
   }
 }
}

Cheers,
  Harm
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RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Peter, 

Got the measure numbers wrong. The snippet is correct.

Mark

 

 

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 7:01 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

 

Mark,

Thanks. This solves problem 2, but I've adapted it for no 1 (see below). I
can't see any way of printing the clef change immediately before the closing
repeat bar (for the repeat) and after it (for the continuation). Does anyone
here know what the accepted layout would be?

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"


\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''
\set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 3
'(staff-bar clef ))
\repeat volta 2 {\clef "treble" c'' }
\alternative {
  { c'' \clef "bass" c }
  { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass" c }
}
}

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, February 20, 2018, 2:36:23 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter,

Try this

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''

\repeat volta 2 { c'' }
\alternative {
  { c'' \clef "bass" c }
  { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass" c }
}
}

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 2:09 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
>; lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

This works for my example as given, but not for the following one. Here the
problem is that two clef changes are needed:

1) for the repeat from bass to treble (bar 6 back to 4), and 
2) one for the continuation, from treble to bass (from 3 on to 7). 

LP sees the bass clef in bar 6 and thinks that it's not needed for bar 7.
But the performer goes straight from bar 4 to bar 7 and doesn't see the bass
clef. Also, when repeating after bar 6, the performer doesn't see any clef
change, and after the clef changes in bars 1-3 won't remember what clef they
are meant to be in.

I'm a performer and occasional arranger, not a musical typographer, so don't
know the solution, but it would seem to me that there should be one
fundamental rule: the flow of the music as performed should have all clef
changes marked without the performer having to remember anything.

(1) could be solved by a courtesy treble clef (in brackets?) at the
beginning of bar 4.
(2) needs a bass clef at the beginning or bar 7

How this can be achieved is way outside my competence.

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''

\repeat volta 2 { c'' }
\alternative {
  { c'' \clef "bass" c }
  { \clef "bass" c }
}
}



Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, February 5, 2018, 2:08:07 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter, 

You are welcome very much!

Mark

From: Peter Toye [ <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 1:10 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek < <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
carsonm...@ca.rr.com>;  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 7:35:21 PM, you wrote:


Peter,

As I said in my suggestion, using the same "\once" command for the treble
clef achieves want you want.
Try,

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
c'' c''
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass"  c  c
}
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Perhaps I am not the only one who mu

RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Peter,

 

I read your request as putting a treble clef at the end of measure 8.

To do that there must be a measure 9.

 

\version "2.19.52"

 

\language "english"

 

 

\new Staff {

\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)

\time 4/4

\clef "treble"  c''1

\clef "bass" c

\clef "treble" c''

\set Staff.forceClef = ##t

\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 3
'(staff-bar clef ))

\repeat volta 2 {\clef "treble" c'' }

\alternative {

  { c'' \clef "bass" c }

  { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t

\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))

\clef "bass" c }

}

\clef treble c'' |

}

 

Mark

 

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 7:01 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

 

Mark,

Thanks. This solves problem 2, but I've adapted it for no 1 (see below). I
can't see any way of printing the clef change immediately before the closing
repeat bar (for the repeat) and after it (for the continuation). Does anyone
here know what the accepted layout would be?

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"


\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''
\set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 3
'(staff-bar clef ))
\repeat volta 2 {\clef "treble" c'' }
\alternative {
  { c'' \clef "bass" c }
  { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass" c }
}
}

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, February 20, 2018, 2:36:23 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter,

Try this

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''

\repeat volta 2 { c'' }
\alternative {
  { c'' \clef "bass" c }
  { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass" c }
}
}

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 2:09 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
>; lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

This works for my example as given, but not for the following one. Here the
problem is that two clef changes are needed:

1) for the repeat from bass to treble (bar 6 back to 4), and 
2) one for the continuation, from treble to bass (from 3 on to 7). 

LP sees the bass clef in bar 6 and thinks that it's not needed for bar 7.
But the performer goes straight from bar 4 to bar 7 and doesn't see the bass
clef. Also, when repeating after bar 6, the performer doesn't see any clef
change, and after the clef changes in bars 1-3 won't remember what clef they
are meant to be in.

I'm a performer and occasional arranger, not a musical typographer, so don't
know the solution, but it would seem to me that there should be one
fundamental rule: the flow of the music as performed should have all clef
changes marked without the performer having to remember anything.

(1) could be solved by a courtesy treble clef (in brackets?) at the
beginning of bar 4.
(2) needs a bass clef at the beginning or bar 7

How this can be achieved is way outside my competence.

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''

\repeat volta 2 { c'' }
\alternative {
  { c'' \clef "bass" c }
  { \clef "bass" c }
}
}



Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, February 5, 2018, 2:08:07 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter, 

You are welcome very much!

Mark

From: Peter Toye [ <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 1:10 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek < <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
carsonm...@ca.rr.com>;  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
 

Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Mark,

Thanks. This solves problem 2, but I've adapted it for no 1 (see below). I 
can't see any way of printing the clef change immediately before the closing 
repeat bar (for the repeat) and after it (for the continuation). Does anyone 
here know what the accepted layout would be?

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

 
\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''
\set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 3 
'(staff-bar clef ))
\repeat volta 2 {\clef "treble" c'' }
\alternative {
   { c'' \clef "bass" c }
   { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
 \clef "bass" c }
}
}

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, February 20, 2018, 2:36:23 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter,
 
Try this
 
\version "2.19.52"
 
\language "english"
 
\new Staff {
\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
\time 4/4
\clef "treble"  c''1
\clef "bass" c
\clef "treble" c''
 
\repeat volta 2 { c'' }
\alternative {
   { c'' \clef "bass" c }
   { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector 
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
 \clef "bass" c }
}
}
 
Mark
 
From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 2:09 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars
 
Mark,

This works for my example as given, but not for the following one. Here the 
problem is that two clef changes are needed:

1) for the repeat from bass to treble (bar 6 back to 4), and 
2) one for the continuation, from treble to bass (from 3 on to 7). 

LP sees the bass clef in bar 6 and thinks that it's not needed for bar 7. But 
the performer goes straight from bar 4 to bar 7 and doesn't see the bass clef. 
Also, when repeating after bar 6, the performer doesn't see any clef change, 
and after the clef changes in bars 1-3 won't remember what clef they are meant 
to be in.

I'm a performer and occasional arranger, not a musical typographer, so don't 
know the solution, but it would seem to me that there should be one fundamental 
rule: the flow of the music as performed should have all clef changes marked 
without the performer having to remember anything.

(1) could be solved by a courtesy treble clef (in brackets?) at the beginning 
of bar 4.
(2) needs a bass clef at the beginning or bar 7

How this can be achieved is way outside my competence.

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
 \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
 \time 4/4
 \clef "treble"  c''1
 \clef "bass" c
 \clef "treble" c''

 \repeat volta 2 { c'' }
 \alternative {
   { c'' \clef "bass" c }
   { \clef "bass" c }
 }
}



Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, February 5, 2018, 2:08:07 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:

Peter, 

You are welcome very much!

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 1:10 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 7:35:21 PM, you wrote:

Peter,

As I said in my suggestion, using the same “\once” command for the treble clef 
achieves want you want.
Try,

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
c'' c''
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass"  c  c
}
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Perhaps I am not the only one who must read more carefully.

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the 
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done so?

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:

Peter,

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of 
your e-mail lead me to the awk

RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Peter,

 

Try this

 

\version "2.19.52"

 

\language "english"

 

\new Staff {

\override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)

\time 4/4

\clef "treble"  c''1

\clef "bass" c

\clef "treble" c''

 

\repeat volta 2 { c'' }

\alternative {

   { c'' \clef "bass" c }

   { \set Staff.forceClef = ##t

 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector 3 '(staff-bar clef ))

 \clef "bass" c }

}

}

 

Mark

 

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 2:09 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

 

Mark,

This works for my example as given, but not for the following one. Here the
problem is that two clef changes are needed:

1) for the repeat from bass to treble (bar 6 back to 4), and 
2) one for the continuation, from treble to bass (from 3 on to 7). 

LP sees the bass clef in bar 6 and thinks that it's not needed for bar 7.
But the performer goes straight from bar 4 to bar 7 and doesn't see the bass
clef. Also, when repeating after bar 6, the performer doesn't see any clef
change, and after the clef changes in bars 1-3 won't remember what clef they
are meant to be in.

I'm a performer and occasional arranger, not a musical typographer, so don't
know the solution, but it would seem to me that there should be one
fundamental rule: the flow of the music as performed should have all clef
changes marked without the performer having to remember anything.

(1) could be solved by a courtesy treble clef (in brackets?) at the
beginning of bar 4.
(2) needs a bass clef at the beginning or bar 7

How this can be achieved is way outside my competence.

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
 \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
 \time 4/4
 \clef "treble"  c''1
 \clef "bass" c
 \clef "treble" c''

 \repeat volta 2 { c'' }
 \alternative {
   { c'' \clef "bass" c }
   { \clef "bass" c }
 }
}



Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, February 5, 2018, 2:08:07 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter, 

You are welcome very much!

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 1:10 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
>; lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 7:35:21 PM, you wrote:


Peter,

As I said in my suggestion, using the same "\once" command for the treble
clef achieves want you want.
Try,

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
c'' c''
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass"  c  c
}
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Perhaps I am not the only one who must read more carefully.

Mark

From: Peter Toye [ <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek < <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
carsonm...@ca.rr.com>;  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done
so?

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:


Peter,

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the
crux of my recommendation.
The same command could be used to "accurately" place the subsequent treble
clef.

Mark

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

From: Peter Toye [ <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek < <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
carsonm...@ca.rr.com>;  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really 

Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Mark,

This works for my example as given, but not for the following one. Here the 
problem is that two clef changes are needed:

1) for the repeat from bass to treble (bar 6 back to 4), and 
2) one for the continuation, from treble to bass (from 3 on to 7). 

LP sees the bass clef in bar 6 and thinks that it's not needed for bar 7. But 
the performer goes straight from bar 4 to bar 7 and doesn't see the bass clef. 
Also, when repeating after bar 6, the performer doesn't see any clef change, 
and after the clef changes in bars 1-3 won't remember what clef they are meant 
to be in.

I'm a performer and occasional arranger, not a musical typographer, so don't 
know the solution, but it would seem to me that there should be one fundamental 
rule: the flow of the music as performed should have all clef changes marked 
without the performer having to remember anything.

(1) could be solved by a courtesy treble clef (in brackets?) at the beginning 
of bar 4.
(2) needs a bass clef at the beginning or bar 7

How this can be achieved is way outside my competence.

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
  \override Score.BarNumber.break-visibility = ##(#t #t #t)
  \time 4/4
  \clef "treble"  c''1
  \clef "bass" c
  \clef "treble" c''

  \repeat volta 2 { c'' }
  \alternative {
{ c'' \clef "bass" c }
{ \clef "bass" c }
  }
}



Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, February 5, 2018, 2:08:07 PM, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:


Peter, 
 
You are welcome very much!
 
Mark
 
From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 1:10 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars
 
Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 7:35:21 PM, you wrote:

Peter,

As I said in my suggestion, using the same “\once” command for the treble clef 
achieves want you want.
Try,

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
 c'' c''
 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
 \clef "bass"  c  c
}
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Perhaps I am not the only one who must read more carefully.

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the 
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done so?

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:

Peter,

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of 
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the crux 
of my recommendation.
The same command could be used to “accurately” place the subsequent treble clef.

Mark

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind the 
performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before the 
repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the repeat 
started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as the 
beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This is a 
similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is 
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't help. 
My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
c'' c''
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass"  c  c
}
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message

RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Peter, 

 

You are welcome very much!

 

Mark

 

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 1:10 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

 

Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 7:35:21 PM, you wrote:


Peter,

As I said in my suggestion, using the same "\once" command for the treble
clef achieves want you want.
Try,

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
 c'' c''
 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
 \clef "bass"  c  c
}
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Perhaps I am not the only one who must read more carefully.

Mark

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
>; lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done
so?

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:


Peter,

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the
crux of my recommendation.
The same command could be used to "accurately" place the subsequent treble
clef.

Mark

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

From: Peter Toye [ <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek < <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
carsonm...@ca.rr.com>;  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind
the performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before
the repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the
repeat started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as
the beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This
is a similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't
help. My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
c'' c''
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "bass"  c  c
}
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user
> [ <mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org>
mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> ptoye
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
> To:  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
> bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

> The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
> missing.

> \version "2.19.52"
> \language "english"
> \score {
>  \new Staff {
>   \time 4/4
>   \clef "treble"
>   c''2 c''

>   \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
>   }
>c c
>  }

> }





> --
> Sent from:  <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html>
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
 <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> > lilypond-user@gnu.org
 <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user> >
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

 

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Mark,

I see what you mean! That works fine. Thanks very much.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 7:35:21 PM, you wrote:


Peter,
 
As I said in my suggestion, using the same “\once” command for the treble clef 
achieves want you want.
Try,
 
\version "2.19.52"
 
\language "english"
 
\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
  c'' c''
  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
  \clef "bass"  c  c
}
\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
\clef "treble" c''1
 
}
 
Perhaps I am not the only one who must read more carefully.
 
Mark
 
From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars
 
Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the 
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done so?

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:

Peter,

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of 
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the crux 
of my recommendation.
The same command could be used to “accurately” place the subsequent treble clef.

Mark

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind the 
performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before the 
repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the repeat 
started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as the 
beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This is a 
similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is 
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't help. 
My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
 c'' c''
 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
 \clef "bass"  c  c
}
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user
> [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr....@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> ptoye
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
> bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

> The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
> missing.

> \version "2.19.52"
> \language "english"
> \score {
>  \new Staff {
>   \time 4/4
>   \clef "treble"
>   c''2 c''

>   \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
>   }
>c c
>  }

> }





> --
> Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
 ___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Peter,

 

As I said in my suggestion, using the same "\once" command for the treble
clef achieves want you want.

Try,

 

\version "2.19.52"

 

\language "english"

 

\new Staff {

\repeat volta 2 {

  c'' c''

  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector

3 '(staff-bar clef ))

  \clef "bass"  c  c

}

\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector

3 '(staff-bar clef ))

\clef "treble" c''1

 

}

 

Perhaps I am not the only one who must read more carefully.

 

Mark

 

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

 

Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done
so?

Best regards,

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:


Peter,

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the
crux of my recommendation.
The same command could be used to "accurately" place the subsequent treble
clef.

Mark

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com <mailto:carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
>; lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind
the performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before
the repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the
repeat started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as
the beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This
is a similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't
help. My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
 c'' c''
 \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
 \clef "bass"  c  c
}
\clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user
> [ <mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org>
mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> ptoye
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
> To:  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
> bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

> The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
> missing.

> \version "2.19.52"
> \language "english"
> \score {
>  \new Staff {
>   \time 4/4
>   \clef "treble"
>   c''2 c''

>   \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
>   }
>c c
>  }

> }





> --
> Sent from:  <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html>
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
 <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> > lilypond-user@gnu.org
 <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user> >
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

 

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Mark,

Thanks. You read my email correctly - the bass clef should be after the 
barline, not before. But your idea didn't change this. Should it have done so?

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, February 4, 2018, 3:45:33 PM, you wrote:


Peter,
 
I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of 
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the crux 
of my recommendation.
The same command could be used to “accurately” place the subsequent treble clef.
 
Mark
 
Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.
 
From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars
 
Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind the 
performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before the 
repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the repeat 
started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as the 
beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This is a 
similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is 
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't help. 
My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
  c'' c''
  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
  \clef "bass"  c  c
 }
 \clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user
> [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> ptoye
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
> bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

> The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
> missing.

> \version "2.19.52"
> \language "english"
> \score {
>  \new Staff {
>   \time 4/4
>   \clef "treble"
>   c''2 c''

>   \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
>   }
>c c
>  }

> }





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RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Peter,

 

I regret that my suggestion did not solve all of your issues. My reading of
your e-mail lead me to the awkward placement of the bass clef. That is the
crux of my recommendation.

The same command could be used to "accurately" place the subsequent treble
clef.

 

Mark

 

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

From: Peter Toye [mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 3:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

 

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind
the performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before
the repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the
repeat started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as
the beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This
is a similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't
help. My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff {
\repeat volta 2 {
  c'' c''
  \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
  \clef "bass"  c  c
 }
 \clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
 <mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
 <http://www.ptoye.com> www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders =
#(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user
> [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> ptoye
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
> To:  <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
> bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

> The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
> missing.

> \version "2.19.52"
> \language "english"
> \score {
>  \new Staff {
>   \time 4/4
>   \clef "treble"
>   c''2 c''

>   \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
>   }
>c c
>  }

> }





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Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Mark,

Your snippet raises two points:

1) There really should be a treble clef before the final repeat, to remind the 
performer to switch back. This is important when there's music before the 
repeated section as the performer may have forgotten which clef the repeat 
started in. In your simplified example there's already a clef sign as the 
beginning of the stave, but in most music that would be just luck. This is a 
similar bug to mine, but different!

2) Your example doesn't have any music after the repeated section, which is 
when the problem occurs. If I add some, I'm afraid your solution doesn't help. 
My example is:

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\new Staff   {
\repeat volta 2 {
   c'' c''
   \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
   \clef "bass"  c  c
  }
  \clef "treble" c''1

}

Best regards

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Saturday, February 3, 2018, 7:25:06 PM, you wrote:

> Ptoye,

> Does this work?

> \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' 
>\once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
> 3 '(staff-bar clef ))
>\clef "bass" | c  c
>   }

> Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user
> [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> ptoye
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
> bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

> The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
> missing.

> \version "2.19.52"
> \language "english"
> \score {
>  \new Staff {
>   \time 4/4
>   \clef "treble"
>   c''2 c''

>   \repeat volta 2 {
>c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
>   }
>c c
>  }

> }





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Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

Saturday, February 3, 2018, 8:22:38 PM, you wrote:

> Hi Peter,

> 2018-02-03 20:08 GMT+01:00 ptoye :
>> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011.

> Plese provide the link.
https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/1862/ 

>> I think it's a bug
>> as the output is definitely incorrect.

> Look at the following examples
> (1)
> %\unfoldRepeats
> \new Staff {
>  \time 4/4
>  \clef "bass"
>  c'2 c'
>  \repeat volta 2 { c' c' | \clef "treble" c'  c' \clef "bass" }
>   c' c'
> }

> Imho, all's correct, even if you uncomment unfoldRepeats

I beg to disagree. The music you show is not the same as mine - it has a bass 
clef at the beginning of the repeat and at the bar following the repeat, so the 
bass clef at the end of bar 3 is correct. 

The problem occurs when the clef at the end of the repeated section is 
different from the clef following the repeat, but the same as the clef at the 
beginning of the repeat. In that case the clef change should refer only to the 
music after the repeat, so shold come after the closing repeat bar, not before 
it. It's worse when there's an alternative, as the clef change sign is not even 
in the music being played. Try the following, where the player will go to the 
2nd alternative without noticing that they're meant to be in bass clef, and 
play a treble clef A rather than a bass clef C. Embarrassing :(>

\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"


\new Staff {
  \time 4/4
  \clef "treble"
  c''1

  \repeat volta 2 {
c''| }
  \alternative {
{
  c''4 \clef "bass" c4 \clef "treble" c''2
}
{
  \clef "bass" c1
}
  }

}


> (2)
> %\unfoldRepeats
> \new Staff {
>  \time 4/4
>  \clef "treble"
>  c'2 c'
>  \repeat volta 2 {
>   %\clef treble
>   c' c' |  c'  c'
>   \clef "bass"
>  }
>   c' c'
> }

> Here the bass-clef at end-repeat is misleading.
Agreed. That's what I want to change.

> Uncommenting unfoldRepeats will lead to likely undesired results
> (which can be fixed by uncommenting the treble-clef at start-repeat)

True

> Though, how should LilyPond behave differently?
> The clef at end-repeat can't know which one is valid at start-repeat.

Well, in theory LilyPond can remember what the clef was at the start of the 
repeat and insert a clef change if needed. The bug report also mentions time 
signatures, but I've not checked that.

> So I tend to "no bug" or rather "won't fix".

Disagree about the "no bug".

> I don't see a possibility to make it work without adding a wagonload of code.
> Likely in C++, so I'm out anyway.

I don't know the Lilypond code so can't comment. How big is your wagon? I'm an 
ex-programmer and software designer, but so out of practice that I wouldn't 
dare do anything with it. And I have only a passing acquaintance with C++ 
anyway.

> Instead you can add the proper clef at start-repeat (it will not be
> printed unless forced), to fix repeatUnfold, and use something at the
> lines of the override Mark provided already.

repeatUnfold isn't the issue (with me at this time, anyway), but I agree that 
the result is wrong.

> Cheers,
>   Harm

All the best,

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Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Thomas Morley]

Hi Peter,

2018-02-03 20:08 GMT+01:00 ptoye :
> I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011.

Plese provide the link.

> I think it's a bug
> as the output is definitely incorrect.

Look at the following examples
(1)
%\unfoldRepeats
\new Staff {
 \time 4/4
 \clef "bass"
 c'2 c'
 \repeat volta 2 { c' c' | \clef "treble" c'  c' \clef "bass" }
  c' c'
}

Imho, all's correct, even if you uncomment unfoldRepeats

(2)
%\unfoldRepeats
\new Staff {
 \time 4/4
 \clef "treble"
 c'2 c'
 \repeat volta 2 {
  %\clef treble
  c' c' |  c'  c'
  \clef "bass"
 }
  c' c'
}

Here the bass-clef at end-repeat is misleading.
Uncommenting unfoldRepeats will lead to likely undesired results
(which can be fixed by uncommenting the treble-clef at start-repeat)


Though, how should LilyPond behave differently?
The clef at end-repeat can't know which one is valid at start-repeat.

So I tend to "no bug" or rather "won't fix".
I don't see a possibility to make it work without adding a wagonload of code.
Likely in C++, so I'm out anyway.

Instead you can add the proper clef at start-repeat (it will not be
printed unless forced), to fix repeatUnfold, and use something at the
lines of the override Mark provided already.

Cheers,
  Harm

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RE: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Ptoye,

Does this work?

\repeat volta 2 {
   c'' c'' 
   \once \override Score.BreakAlignment #'break-align-orders = #(make-vector
3 '(staff-bar clef ))
   \clef "bass" | c  c
  }

Mark

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
ptoye
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:08 AM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a
bug as the output is definitely incorrect.

The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
missing.

\version "2.19.52"
\language "english"
\score {
 \new Staff {
  \time 4/4
  \clef "treble"
  c''2 c''

  \repeat volta 2 {
   c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
  }
   c c
 }

}





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Re: Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[ptoye]

I've found that this is was reported as an "ugly" in 2011. I think it's a bug
as the output is definitely incorrect.

The reverse happens with the snippet below, where the change of clef is
missing.

\version "2.19.52"
\language "english"
\score {
 \new Staff {
  \time 4/4
  \clef "treble"
  c''2 c''

  \repeat volta 2 {
   c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c  c
  }
   c c
 }

}





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Placement of clefs at repeat bars

[Peter Toye]

There seems to be a bug in the placement of clef change signs at repeats. The 
snippet below puts the bass clef sign before the repeat bar. It should be 
after! The score as engraved implies that the change to bass clef is for the 
repeated section, not the following bar. Very confusing for the sight-reader.


\version "2.19.52"

\language "english"

\score {
 \new Staff {
  \time 4/4
  \clef "treble"
  c''2 c''

  \repeat volta 2 {
   c'' c'' | \clef "bass" c \clef "treble" c''
  }
  \clef "bass" c c
 }

}
 
Regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
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RE: tweaking clefs

[Peter Gentry]

 

 

From: Timothy Lanfear [mailto:timo...@lanfear.me] 
Sent: 06 March 2017 12:28
To: Peter Gentry <peter.gen...@sunscales.co.uk>; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: tweaking clefs

 

On 06/03/17 12:02, Peter Gentry wrote:



 

From: Peter Gentry [mailto:peter.gen...@sunscales.co.uk] 
Sent: 05 March 2017 16:21
To: 'lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> '
<mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org> <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
Subject: Re:tweaking clefs

 

Timothy Lanfear supplied a simple understandable way of achieving my aims.  

 

However on reflection there is a drawback; the midi output is not correct.
Two identical midi outputs with the same name are produced but share the
same midi instrument 

 


The example I posted does produce a midi file with both bassoon and
clarinet. Here is the terminal output from timidity.

timidity tmp.midi 
Requested buffer size 32768, fragment size 8192
ALSA pcm 'default' set buffer size 32768, period size 8192 bytes
Playing tmp.midi
MIDI file: tmp.midi
Format: 1  Tracks: 3  Divisions: 384
Sequence: 
Text: creator: 
Text: GNU LilyPond 2.19.56  
Instrument: bassoon
Instrument: clarinet
Playing time: ~12 seconds
Notes cut: 0
Notes lost totally: 0




-- 
Timothy Lanfear, Bristol, UK.
 
 
Apologies you are correct my midi playback is not good enough to hear the
two instruments even when one is cello. I used synthfont to confirm two
instruments present.
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Re: tweaking clefs

[Timothy Lanfear]

On 06/03/17 12:02, Peter Gentry wrote:


*From:*Peter Gentry [mailto:peter.gen...@sunscales.co.uk]
*Sent:* 05 March 2017 16:21
*To:* 'lilypond-user@gnu.org' <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
*Subject:* Re:tweaking clefs

Timothy Lanfear supplied a simple understandable way of achieving my 
aims.


However on reflection there is a drawback; the midi output is not 
correct. Two identical midi outputs with the same name are produced 
but share the same midi instrument




The example I posted does produce a midi file with both bassoon and 
clarinet. Here is the terminal output from timidity.


timidity tmp.midi
Requested buffer size 32768, fragment size 8192
ALSA pcm 'default' set buffer size 32768, period size 8192 bytes
Playing tmp.midi
MIDI file: tmp.midi
Format: 1  Tracks: 3  Divisions: 384
Sequence:
Text: creator:
Text: GNU LilyPond 2.19.56
Instrument: bassoon
Instrument: clarinet
Playing time: ~12 seconds
Notes cut: 0
Notes lost totally: 0

--
Timothy Lanfear, Bristol, UK.

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RE: Re:tweaking clefs

[Peter Gentry]

 

 

From: Peter Gentry [mailto:peter.gen...@sunscales.co.uk] 
Sent: 05 March 2017 16:21
To: 'lilypond-user@gnu.org' <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
Subject: Re:tweaking clefs

 

Timothy Lanfear supplied a simple understandable way of achieving my aims.  

 

However on reflection there is a drawback; the midi output is not correct.
Two identical midi outputs with the same name are produced but share the
same midi instrument 

 

This is not a serious issue(in the one instrument case)  as midi output at
best is only a good check of the harmonies or lack thereof.

Try as I may I cannot seem to provide a different midi instrument for the
two staves although the midi data components appear to be essential for a
successful layout .

 

The process will is good to input Basson music and display the equivalent
Bass Clarinet music but isn't much use when the aim is to produce music
transposed for a variety of instruments with midi output to quickly check
the entire score. This remains a multi step process.

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Re: tweaking Clefs

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

>> The clef changes are fine… but the transposition doesn’t work as I
>> would expect/hope it would.
> 
> What did you expect/hope?  This is just for Midi.

Well, then… that explains it, since the visuals were therefore not critical.

>> Is there a way to extend this music-function idea to handle all of the
>> requirements of an instrument switch?
> 
> It's not a music function but an expression.  What _are_ "all of the
> requirements"?  This does what \instrumentSwitch can do now.

It doesn’t properly handle key signature changes, in particular those which are 
abstracted (but maybe even those which are inline?). See for example the thread 
at . 
That is one of the main requirements in “all of the requirements” — and perhaps 
the only one that isn’t handled well by any method I’ve seen to date. Your 
interesting work on the “smartkey” function (back in 2013: 
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-10/msg00180.html) gave me 
hope, but then wasn’t fully sufficient to solve the whole instrument-switching 
problem once and for all.

But hitting the ‘reset’ button… Perhaps by now, with all the recent 
improvements in the codebase, there is a single way to make multi-instrumental 
parts easy to code and output (in both transposed and concert versions), 
without being forced to break the music into independent variables, manually 
add redundant key changes, etc.?

Best,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: tweaking Clefs

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> Uh, { ... \bassclarinet ... } ?
>> 
>> With something like
>> 
>> bassclarinet = {
>>  \clef F
>>  \transposition c,
>>  \set Staff.midiInstrument = "clarinet"
>>  \set Staff.instrumentCueName = \markup \bf "cl. B"
>>  \set Staff.instrumentName = "bass clarinet"
>>  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = “bc”
>
> Uh… \bf throws an error…?
> Is that a function my copy of 2.19.56 should have?

No.  That was a TeXism for \bold .

> The clef changes are fine… but the transposition doesn’t work as I
> would expect/hope it would.

What did you expect/hope?  This is just for Midi.

> Is there a way to extend this music-function idea to handle all of the
> requirements of an instrument switch?

It's not a music function but an expression.  What _are_ "all of the
requirements"?  This does what \instrumentSwitch can do now.

>> instrumentCueName would trigger a spurious cue name
>
> It does, as seen in the output of the above snippet.
>
>> the instrument cue engraver could be changed to ignore cue names
>> set before the first call of process-music.
>
> Is that the cleanest way to handle the problem?

Easiest to explain I guess.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: tweaking clefs

[Peter Gentry]

\inherit-acceptability is documented in \version "2.19.56" which I have just
downloaded.

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Re: tweaking Clefs

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> Uh, { ... \bassclarinet ... } ?
> 
> With something like
> 
> bassclarinet = {
>  \clef F
>  \transposition c,
>  \set Staff.midiInstrument = "clarinet"
>  \set Staff.instrumentCueName = \markup \bf "cl. B"
>  \set Staff.instrumentName = "bass clarinet"
>  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = “bc”

Uh… \bf throws an error…?
Is that a function my copy of 2.19.56 should have?

Without it, and incorporating the rest into a compilable snippet:

%%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.56"
\language english

bassclarinet = {
 \clef F
 \transposition bf,
 \set Staff.midiInstrument = "clarinet"
 \set Staff.instrumentCueName = \markup "cl. B"
 \set Staff.instrumentName = "bass clarinet"
 \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "bc"
}

clarinet = {
 \clef G
 \transposition bf
 \set Staff.midiInstrument = "clarinet"
 \set Staff.instrumentCueName = \markup "cl. B"
 \set Staff.instrumentName = "clarinet"
 \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "cl"
}

global = {
  \key c \major s1
  \key f \major s1
  \key g \major s1
  \key d \major s1
}

clarnotes = {
  \clarinet g1
  \bassclarinet g1
  \clarinet g1
  \bassclarinet g1
}

\new Staff << \global \clarnotes >>
%%%  SNIPPET ENDS

The clef changes are fine… but the transposition doesn’t work as I would 
expect/hope it would.
Is there a way to extend this music-function idea to handle all of the 
requirements of an instrument switch?

> instrumentCueName would trigger a spurious cue name

It does, as seen in the output of the above snippet.

> the instrument cue engraver could be changed to ignore cue names
> set before the first call of process-music.

Is that the cleanest way to handle the problem?

Thanks,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re:tweaking clefs

[Peter Gentry]

Timothy Lanfear supplied a simple understandable way of achieving my aims.
I was thrown headlong down the route of trying to modify the sequential
music stream as was done for indicating/modifying pitches outside the
"range"  of each instrument. "range" being somewhat arbitrary as it  depends
on the skill of the musician. This employed range  data in the scheme
process and input instrumentname from the lily source  file

 

Appropriate clef and transposition can be easily provided entirely in Lily
data rather than fiddling about with the music stream.

 

The solution provided answers my immediate needs. Thank you very much all.

 

Ps   \inherit-acceptability is new to me I will have a search in the
manuals.

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Re: tweaking Clefs

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David (et al.),
>
>>> No one picked up this one. Perhaps a way to tackle this problem would
>>> be to define specific contexts for the instruments that automatically
>>> have the right properties. It's worth reading through all the context
>>> properties to see which you should set.
>> 
>> Huh, this sounds like a case for what \addInstrumentDefinition was for
>> (it's been undocumented because there really is no point in not just
>> defining a music expression doing the same).
>
> This is essentially the same problem that has been discussed many
> times before on this list (e.g. the long thread at
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-05/msg00067.html). There
> is a need for a well-implemented instrument-definition and -switching
> mechanism which would automatically change all relevant context
> properties, handle transpositions and clef issues, etc.
>
>> \new Staff \with \bassclarinet { ... }
>> instead and put all the respective definitions in \bassclarinet .
>
> That sounds like it wouldn’t be applicable mid-score.
> Am I missing something in what you’re suggesting?

Uh, { ... \bassclarinet ... } ?

With something like

bassclarinet = {
  \clef F
  \transposition c,
  \set Staff.midiInstrument = "clarinet"
  \set Staff.instrumentCueName = \markup \bf "cl. B"
  \set Staff.instrumentName = "bass clarinet"
  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "bc"
}

you should fare reasonably well both per-Staff as well as in-Staff .
instrumentCueName would trigger a spurious cue name however I think: the
instrument cue engraver could be changed to ignore cue names set before
the first call of process-music.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: tweaking Clefs

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David (et al.),

>> No one picked up this one. Perhaps a way to tackle this problem would
>> be to define specific contexts for the instruments that automatically
>> have the right properties. It's worth reading through all the context
>> properties to see which you should set.
> 
> Huh, this sounds like a case for what \addInstrumentDefinition was for
> (it's been undocumented because there really is no point in not just
> defining a music expression doing the same).

This is essentially the same problem that has been discussed many times before 
on this list (e.g. the long thread at 
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-05/msg00067.html). There 
is a need for a well-implemented instrument-definition and -switching mechanism 
which would automatically change all relevant context properties, handle 
transpositions and clef issues, etc.

> \new Staff \with \bassclarinet { ... }
> instead and put all the respective definitions in \bassclarinet .

That sounds like it wouldn’t be applicable mid-score.
Am I missing something in what you’re suggesting?

Thanks,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: tweaking Clefs

[Ralph Palmer]

On Mar 5, 2017 9:24 AM, "Timothy Lanfear" <timo...@lanfear.me> wrote:

On 01/03/17 18:02, Peter Gentry wrote:



It would be nice to be able to change the clef at the same time as
transposing.

I often forget one or other and it is easier to input data in the original
clef for checking input.

Greetings, Timothy Lanfear and Peter Gentry -

I'm afraid I do not have a solution to your problem(s), but I do have some
input. I'm a violist who plays fiddle tunes and classical music. I also
transpose a lot of fiddle tunes to play on the viola. I agree that it's a
lot easier for me to proofread in the original clef, and I sometimes forget
to change clefs after proofreading. However, I think there would be
problems with doing an automatic clef change with transposition, at least
in classical music. Viola uses both alto and treble clef, and cello uses
bass and tenor. I suspect other instruments use multiple clefs (and
ottava), as well. You would still have to check and change the results of
your transposition, and I, personally, think I have a better chance of
doing that consistently if I have to do it all the time.

Just my 2 cents,

Ralph Palmer
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com
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Re: tweaking Clefs

[David Kastrup]

Timothy Lanfear  writes:

> On 01/03/17 18:02, Peter Gentry wrote:
>>
>> It would be nice to be able to change the clef at the same time as
>> transposing.
>>
>> I often forget one or other and it is easier to input data in the
>> original clef for checking input.
>>
>> Having started down this road it has become a challenge…..Any help
>> for a ageing muso who has forgotten almost all the scheme/lily
>> learnt last year very gratefully received.
>>
>
> No one picked up this one. Perhaps a way to tackle this problem would
> be to define specific contexts for the instruments that automatically
> have the right properties. It's worth reading through all the context
> properties to see which you should set.

Huh, this sounds like a case for what \addInstrumentDefinition was for
(it's been undocumented because there really is no point in not just
defining a music expression doing the same).

Doing a context of its own seems like overkill when you could just be
writing

\new Staff \with \bassclarinet { ... }

instead and put all the respective definitions in \bassclarinet .

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: tweaking Clefs

[Timothy Lanfear]

On 01/03/17 18:02, Peter Gentry wrote:


It would be nice to be able to change the clef at the same time as 
transposing.


I often forget one or other and it is easier to input data in the 
original clef for checking input.


Having started down this road it has become a challenge…..Any help for 
a ageing muso who has forgotten almost all the scheme/lily learnt last 
year very gratefully received.




No one picked up this one. Perhaps a way to tackle this problem would be 
to define specific contexts for the instruments that automatically have 
the right properties. It's worth reading through all the context 
properties to see which you should set.


--
Timothy Lanfear, Bristol, UK.

\version "2.19.56"

\layout {
  \context {
\Staff
\name "BassClt"
\alias Staff
\clef "treble"
instrumentName = \markup { \center-column { "Bass" "Clarinet" } }
shortInstrumentName = "BCl"
  }
  \context {
\Staff
\name "Bassoon"
\alias Staff
\clef "bass"
instrumentName = "Bassoon"
shortInstrumentName = "Bsn"
  }
  \inherit-acceptability "BassClt" "Staff"
  \inherit-acceptability "Bassoon" "Staff"
}

\midi {
  \context {
\Staff
\name "BassClt"
\alias Staff
instrumentTransposition = #(ly:make-pitch -2 7 -1)
midiInstrument = "clarinet"
  }
  \context {
\Staff
\name "Bassoon"
\alias Staff
midiInstrument = "bassoon"
  }
  \inherit-acceptability "BassClt" "Staff"
  \inherit-acceptability "Bassoon" "Staff"
}

music = { \key c\major c4 d e f g a b c' }

\score {
  \new StaffGroup <<
\new Bassoon { \music }
\new BassClt { \transpose bes c'' \music }
  >>
  \layout{}
  \midi{}
}
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tweaking Clefs

[Peter Gentry]

Is it possible to tweak clef properties in the same way that you can tweak
color and notehead style of a ly:pitch? Object.

 

Ie 

;rebuild the pitch and if a changed pitch add the color tweak

(if (ly:pitch? p)

  (let ((new-pitch (naturalize-instrument-range p instrument)))

  (ly:music-set-property! music 'pitch new-pitch)

  (if (and (not (equal? p new-pitch)) (color? my-color))

  (ly:music-set-property! music 'tweaks

  (acons  'color my-color

   (acons 'style 'harmonic-mixed

 (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)))

 

 

The clef properties I am trying to tweak are indicated by .data but items in
an 'elements structure are harder to get hold of.  Am I wasting my time
trying?

The reason for trying is that for a lot of the time I transpose various
quartets including bassoon, cello etc for a bass clarinet and or alto flute.

 

It would be nice to be able to change the clef at the same time as
transposing.

I often forget one or other and it is easier to input data in the original
clef for checking input.

 

Having started down this road it has become a challenge...Any help for a
ageing muso who has forgotten almost all the scheme/lily learnt last year
very gratefully received.

 

'RelativeOctaveMusic

(make-music

'SequentialMusic

'elements

(list (make-music

'ContextSpeccedMusic

'context-type

'Staff

'element

(make-music

'SequentialMusic

'elements

(list (make-music

'PropertySet

'value

"clefs.G" .data

'symbol

'clefGlyph)

(make-music

'PropertySet

'value

-6.data

'symbol

'middleCClefPosition)

(make-music

'PropertySet

'value

-2.data   

'symbol

'clefPosition)

(make-music

'PropertySet

'value

0 .data

'symbol

'clefTransposition)

(make-music

'PropertySet

'value

'default  .data

'symbol

'clefTranspositionStyle)

(make-music

'ApplyContext

'procedure

ly:set-middle-C!

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