Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.
On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks a Lot Tee what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not using a Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive then table- you have another element- the clearing one. Because using the table wouldn't be semantically correct... it's for things that aren't meant to be put in tables, but making it look like a table would acheive the visual effect you want. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.
On 2/21/07, Shlomi Asaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi i have a table like layout. here is a live example: http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/floatingDivs.htm all the floating divs has the same height. i haven't written the height in the css- the content is the same. all the titles are one line height. but what happens when one title is longer? the layout breaks and the lower float element looks for his position in a the next empty space - after the high element. What you (and everyone else) need is display:table and display:table-cell, but unfortunately these features are just not supported in enough browsers yet. Therefore, you'll probably have to settle for a less than perfect solution. how can i solve this problem? i can find few suggestion but none of them satisfy me: an Element with clear:both after each ending line. honestly, this isn't that bad. Just spitting out a br after every third item (count%3) will take only a couple lines of code, and is probably the lightest way to achieve this for what works today. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] site check in IE6 - c7designs.com
On 2/18/07, Chris Gandolfo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all - I would appreciate it if you could review my site in ie6. Also, any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! http://c7designs.com The site is face-slapping beautiful for the first 80%, and then I reach the footer and it's like I'm on a different site. Besides the footer text being incredibly tiny, the lack of alignment among the form elements makes it look like you just ignored designing that part of the site. IMO, you should at least use some floats to give it a bit of a grid appearance. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms
On 2/15/07, James Crooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it's safe to say that blind AND deaf people surfing with braille devices are a very small minority, and very aware of the limitations of their system. When you target this disabilities group, I guess you have to take the risk of spamming and NOT use CAPTCHA. This isn't just a blind-and-deaf issue. I fail about 10% of captchas I encounter... at some point they get to the point that they are so good against computer vision that they surpass what my HUMAN VISION is capable of. Forms should not involve extra work for users... that's guilty before proven innocent. Forms should identify and catch bots while letting humans enjoy a work-free experience; I responded to the original post in this thread off-list because I figured it was OT, but I'll post the recommendations I made: - tying into Akismet: http://akismet.com/ which gets better everyday. - using honeypots and hashes: http://www.nedbatchelder.com/text/stopbots.html which is FAR more accessible than CAPTCHAs or random questions. Anyway, I posted on this issue recently (before this thread, actually) and I'm not trying to advertise or anything, but you can read what I wrote here: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2007/02/12/captchas-are-getting-out-of-hand/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] print style sheet with dropdown menu
On 2/10/07, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I have an accessible question that I can't decide. With a site that has drop down menu controls by JS, is it important to make the submenu links show in print style? I feel it's not important and not needed because user who prints the page out can't click the submenu link anyway; on the other hand I feel it's important to have them show as a good reference, to let user knows how many pages and links the site has. If you have pages with articles on them, usually the user wants to print the actual articles. The typical trend (and the one I followed when I designed a print stylesheet) is to remove the navigation completely, and just print the title of the page and the article. If users really want to print a sitemap, then you could just make a sitemap page! -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Books - CSS/Standards/Accessibility
On 2/11/07, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If hypothetically we were thinking of running a course covering CSS design techniques, Standards and Acessibility, is there a top five book list to complement such an undertaking. Some excellent suggestions have been made; however I'd also try to get the students used to looking for their own resources online. For example, put them onto A List Apart, get them to look at speaker lists for major events and so on. Tell them that Jakob Nielsen often does great research but his conclusions go well with a proverbial grain of salt. Hey, tell them to subscribe to this list. I was the only student in my web design class that kept up with WSG and CSS-D and I was always miles ahead of my classmates when it came to CSS and accessibility. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Avoid non valid css hacks
On 2/10/07, Pierre-Henri Lavigne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok at my work I joined last october they used to work with ie hacks such as _ In their specifications, they are releasing only valid html code and not css, and I am trying to release valid css stylesheets too, (Boum) I still used tantek hack for example with voice-family. And for various reasons, they don't like it. For maintaining they don't want to use ie conditional stylesheets for example and want everything in one stylesheet. So everyone think about it, decided to upgrade it progressivly to try finding new stuffs. First initiative came from a colleague who suggest for width and height properties : width: 980px !important; /* standard loving browser */ width: 952px; /* IE5 */ width /**/ : /**/ 962px; /* IE6 */ What do you think about it ? Is it a method already used on the web ? Are you putting all the browsers in standards mode with a proper doctype (HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Strict)? If you do, you will probably need less hacks, since the box model will at least be the same across browsers. As for that hack, I haven't seen that last line in use before. My other question is different and was about the selector . I am using htmlbody #container for example. On the source from webstandardsawards.com they are using body#container. I suppose it is ok 'cause IE 6 won't understand it, but was it tested in depth ? I find that the selector is about all I have to use to cater to older browsers, including IE 5 Win/Mac and IE 6. htmlbody is the easiest thing since you never know if someone might wrap another div around #container. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Books - CSS/Standards/Accessibility
On 2/9/07, Andy Woznica [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this has been done before. If so please point me in the right direction. If hypothetically we were thinking of running a course covering CSS design techniques, Standards and Acessibility, is there a top five book list to complement such an undertaking. I have found the following and wondered if anyone had any more input. I'm trying to find a text that would be suitable in a classroom setting rather than from the perspective of someone who is already very familiar with CSS and needs a reference. This is by no means an exhaustive list. There seems to be a lot of printed material out there. Some of it has to shine above the rest. If you want to talk about accessibility, you may as well talk about usability: Don't Make Me Think by Steve Krug is the book for that. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Books - CSS/Standards/Accessibility
On 2/9/07, Andy Woznica [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this has been done before. If so please point me in the right direction. If hypothetically we were thinking of running a course covering CSS design techniques, Standards and Acessibility, is there a top five book list to complement such an undertaking. I have found the following and wondered if anyone had any more input. I'm trying to find a text that would be suitable in a classroom setting rather than from the perspective of someone who is already very familiar with CSS and needs a reference. This is by no means an exhaustive list. There seems to be a lot of printed material out there. Some of it has to shine above the rest. Oh, almost forgot: Building Accessible Website by Joe Clark: http://joeclark.org/book/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] No. abbreviation glyph
On 2/8/07, Dmitry Baranovskiy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually in both cases you shouldn't use 'x', but #215; or times; Good point. But will a screen reader find 'times' and say 'times', or for that matter Andrew's unicode alternatives? There's a key question. Anyone got a screen reader handy to test it? Sadly I don't... Add to this Will search engines correctly understand such a symbols? The answer is No. Compare: 3×4 http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=enq=3%D74btnG=Searchmeta= 3x4 http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=enq=3x4btnG=Searchmeta= 3 4 http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=enq=3+4btnG=Searchmeta= As you can see first and last results are equal, which means that Google ignore times; symbol. Today I searched for: prove that any string of length l is an instance of 2^l different schemas and I got a direct match at: Prove that any string of length il/i is an instance of i2supl/sup/i different schemas But changing the search string to: prove that any string of length l is an instance of 2l different schemas Returns the same match. It seems, therefore, that Google just ignores unusual characters and typographic tags. Both a shame... IMO, this is a shortcoming on the part of Googlebot. Then again, the search results are *not* totally identical... the first returns the sup match as result #1, the second as result #2. In the second, result #1 is a PDF. Seems like something that ought to be deferred to the Google team for an explanation. Regardless, understanding a user's meaning in a single text input is always hard. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] is html done? [was semantics]
On 2/8/07, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an expert at any of this, btw. What do XHTML2 and HTML5 give us that we can't do with XML and CSS? Corporate support, to a degree. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] is html done? [was semantics]
On 2/9/07, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: No, the semantics come from its definition, not its tag name. If a spec defines an element with the tag name j79hfd98y28 to be for marking up a person's name, then that's what it is. The tag name is just an opaque string that doesn't affect the semantics in any way. It just helps authors to have meaningful and memorable tag names. However, if you create your own generic XML document, using tag names like name and address, then those elements don't inherently have any semantics at all. Although you may define your own semantics, unless those semantics become known by others, the elements are meaningless to everyone else, and your semantics are totally useless. Semantics only become useful when there are tools that make use of them in a useful way. The semantics in HTML documents are useful because they are widely understood and implemented. So nameJoe Blogs/name is meaningless with out a spec to tell me that 'name' means a name, while j79hfd98y28[EMAIL PROTECTED]*/j79hfd98y28 is meaningful if a spec says so? What if I write spec that says simply: The meanings of all my tags names are the same as the meanings defined in the Standard Oxford English Dictionary? What if I claim my spec to be the English language? I could then further claim my document is more widely understood (and implemented?) than HTML, simply because more people understand plain English than HTML. (I'm playing devil's advocate here, but only to show how absurd this is.) Welcome to web standards? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] slightly OT?: Web 2.0 explained in a short, moving video
On 2/7/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth libwebdev at 02/08/07 09:39... This came across my virtual desk yesterday; many of you may have already seen it, but for the interest of those who haven't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmP4nk0EOEeurl= I quite enjoyed watching that - once I muted the audio wink/. But I couldn't spot the links to the audio equivalent and the text transcript... Sadly, Professor Wesch didn't mention accessiblity once. He didn't mention XHTML either, or CSS... makes me wonder if there are really people out there who know about HTML and XML but not the rest...??? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Noobie: Padding-top, padding-bottom
On 2/7/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You better read up on CSS.
Then in the HTML documents put a class=whitesome text/a
.white{color:#00;font-size:100%;line-height:100%;}
.red{color:#FF0066;font-size:100%;line-height:100%;}
.black{color:#00;font-size:100%;line-height:100%;}
.yellow{color:#00;font-size:100%;line-height:100%;}
.green{color:#006633;font-size:100%;line-height:100%;}
.blue{color:#FF;font-size:100%;line-height:100%;}
My goodness, what is all that? Can you explain? Is this for real? Why
would anyone not just do:
a { font-size:100%; line-height:1.0 }
.white { color:#00; }
(and did you know that font-size100% is usually the default, and
line-height 1.0 does not readable text make... [most browsers default
at 1.2])
etc...
--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com
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Re: [WSG] Usability Questions for Quicktime
On 2/6/07, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quicktime is that the files tend to be bulky, and there's no way they have the quality that a Flash video file will. That's not precisely true, the Sorenson and H.24(4|3) are pretty much similar in effectiveness to VP6 (and some of the codecs are even shared among these containers). All depends on processing settings. Well if you are going to have a mixed bag of results depending on what codecs your users have, then that should be a big warning sign right there. The fact that *some* users get a poor experience with Quicktime content is exactly why Sarah should go with Flash. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Form Widgets
On 2/7/07, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In short, interface consistency, and catering to user expectations. More specifically, apple tends not to trust its users to have taste, or sense. So they make input elements look like every other button in the interface so user expectations are not violated, I.E. forced to think. Very simple really. Though you will note this issue only really exists with safari. Firefox for mac has standard windows style widgets, and I'm not sure what the situation in camino is, but it has the same rendering engine as firefox so I imagine it's pretty similar. Camino, Opera and iCab for Mac behave like Safari. FF is the only one that is liberal with form controls. http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/styling-form-controls-revisited/submit-button/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
On 2/5/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've found myself wondering just what semantic meaning the hr tag adds to a document. The typical usage is when you want to separate sections of a page. The thing is that a hN tag indicates a new section too. Another issue is that we generally seem to put them in our markup then hide them using display: none which makes them invisible to screen readers anyway. Is anyone actually gaining any benefit from the hr tag other than people who browse with styles disabled? I think hr doesn't possess much for semantics. I never use them at all. I know new ideas have been proposed for future versions of (x)HTML, and one example would be XHTML 2 which has sections to separate parts of a page. That offers a lot more for semantics than just having hrs strewn about. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Usability Questions for Quicktime
On 2/5/07, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. Is there a different file format which is more universal? Quicktime works well with IE browsers, but with other browsers it's hit and miss. All too often I have seen my browser (FF 2.0) crash as a result of a Quicktime movie. Flash never crashes. Regardless of which consumes more resources (and if Flash is slow you are doing it wrong), Flash is much more dependable. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
On 2/5/07, Kat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/5/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: one example would be XHTML 2 which has sections to separate parts of a page. That offers a lot more for semantics than just having hrs strewn about. What is the difference between the new section and a div ? The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/6/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? So one flash embedded image and a photo of the hotel exterior is going to give you a good feel about what the hotel is all about??? I do not think so mate. Most hotel websites have a few photos for each different hotel room (penthouse, budget etc) and also photos of the hotel area (reception, restaurant, pool, garden etc) OK, clearly this website is not a good example of an effective business site but it's a decent example of a progressively-enhanced Flash site. Let's not argue about its business merits... that's straying from the topic of web standards. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Not fair. You picked these sites, so you have to define your criteria. The ball is in your court to answer that question. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Noah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting how people today still either get Picasso or they don't. Says a lot about the timelessness of the work... Well, list-admin said we have to get back on topic, so I'm still wondering if Milosz will share his definition of accessible. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread. G'day. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling form elements in Safari
On 1/31/07, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom You wrote: Am I correct in assuming there isn't a way to style an input of type submit in Safari to match what I've styled that shows in Firefox and Netscape? Input type submit is controlled by the Mac webkit, it effects Camino to, but not as much as Safari. Button type submit gives you much more control. See http://nickcowie.com/presentation/s5-button.html for more details. The downside with the the button element is you have to more work to get IE to play right. If you have a single button in the form and you aren't testing for that button on submit, it should work just fine. Forms with multiple buttons are impossible using the button tag in IE. A very helpful article here: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/push_my_button/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Creating link arrows/icons in css
On 1/30/07, Jason Bayly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Paul, I've implemented what you suggest.. http://www.newgency.com/test/css_temp.htm The css technique doesn't seem to work too well. I also have a non css example of what I'm trying to achieve. If you resize the browser window so that the link wraps, you will see the end result. Any thoughts on a nice css based solution? The problem is that IE makes a horrible guess on where to put the background image and keeps it in the center as if the link was displayed as a block. Totally counter-intuitive, and I don't know of a solution... I would probably put the image at the beginning instead of the end. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards War - HTML 5 vs XHTML 2.0
On 1/27/07, Duncan Stigwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What impact does this have on people who have just made the transistion to xHTML 1 like me? I'm an avid supporter of the web standards and have been guiding many in the ways of xHTML and validating... but it seems the issue is becoming ever more complicated, rather than clearer, as time goes by. Rather than having one standard to follow, there seems to be more and more standards. Personally I feel like despite my best efforts to be a good web designer, its becoming ever more troublesome and I'm finding myself spending more time trying to keep on the ball than actually working and earning a living. People have gone through what you went through and many of them have done the same thing: go back to HTML 4.01. Let's be honest... by the time XHTML 2.0 becomes a reality we probably still won't have universal browser support for XHTML rendering. It's possible to serve XHTML to compliant browsers and HTML to IE, but there aren't any real benefits from using XHTML. XHTML is not for day to day web design that you hand over to your tech-illiterate clients and when you are serving it as text/html you are just writing XHTML that looks like HTML 4.01 to the browser. You could keep serving XHTML 1.0 websites and you would probably never see any negative consequences come from it, but someway along the road we'll have an updated version of HTML with new tags to learn and a totally new implementation of XHTML where we will have to learn everything all over again. It is a disappointing situation right now but at least there is work being done on all fronts. My $0.02: I'm looking forward to HTML 5 more. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE layout problem
On 1/27/07, Vladislav Gorodetskiy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there, My layout is : _ || || || || | sidebar | | main | || || |___| || There is a big div .wrapper who contains .sidebar and .main divs. sidebar is left-floated and main is right-floated I have a 100%-width table in .main div In firefox everything works fine but in IE table becomes 100% of body but not 100% of .main... Why does the table have 100% width? Why not auto width? If you are explicitly applying a width of 100% to the table, in the markup or the CSS, take it away. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Table and list problem
On 1/26/07, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,
I'm sorry I can't post a URL. (I'm not allowed)
I have this table...
|sidebar/200px|middle/fluid|sidebar/200px|
In that I have...
|empty td|horizontal list (nav)|empty td|
Like this...
|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|
and I get this...
|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|li/19,9%|small *gap*.
2px I think|
The css for the list is here...
#navlist{padding:0 0 20px 0}
#navlist ul {width:100%}
#navlist
li{padding:0;margin:0;display:inline;list-style-type:none}
...
PS.: 20% on the li's brake the list in IE (last item wraps)???
Any ideas on how to get it to fill the entire available space in IE? (FF
can do 20% without breaking)
The problem will always be how IE rounds its calculations... if the
middle section is fluid and it happens to be 1001 px wide at one
point, IE won't do a very good job of picking 20% of that for each
item. You could try width 19,99% or 19,999% on each li and see if that
helps IE calculate the widths better, otherwise apply:
#navlist ul {text-align:center}
and even though there will be some gap space on both sides it will at
least be symmetrical.
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Re: [WSG] css conventions
On 1/25/07, Michael Turnwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have a co-worker, that whenever he creates a class, puts div in front of
it if the class is being assigned to a div. Here's an example:
div.container {
background-color: #fff;
margin-bottom: 18px;
}
div.container div.container_inner {
border: 1px solid #bbb;
margin-left: 8px;
}
div.container div.inset {
padding: 3px;
}
As you can see, the code can get messy rather quickly. He says he does it to
avoid conflicts. My argument is that you should only do that when you
specifically want the class only to apply to a div. If I want to use the
class on another element I can't without creating a new rule. I would think
the better way would be to create the class without the div. part first
and in the future add the div. part if I need to be more specific. This
allows the CSS to be more generic and cleaner.
I think you have the right idea... the above code is not very good.
The fact that he's making rules which you can't reuse just because he
insists on adding div. is a problem. I think the way to do this is to
start with a generic .container, and then if there is something that
should be specific to divs add a div.container rule... but working
without a .container rule at all is pointless.
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Re: [WSG] website checker
On 1/23/07, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 23/01/2007, at 4:40 AM, Barney Carroll wrote: Jon Gunderson wrote: Got good readings for my latest site, bumped into two failings: 1. No headings preceding navigation uls (debatable intrinsic worth). 2. No navigation areas. I think point 1 is a clue to what qualifies: navigation area == list preceded by a heading. No, I'm certain that area has to do with image maps. Since you don't have any, you get N/A. If you had one it would analyze it. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Average Page Sizes
Em 2006/09/06, às 05:50, Samuel Richardson escreveu: Hello list, What is considered an acceptable total page size for the web these days? Clearly the smaller the better but I've put together a fairly graphic heavy travel website with a homepage size of about 300k. With GZIP switched on in the server I imagine that this will be reduced fairly substantially (we have some huge stylesheets that will compress well). Thoughts? Have you tried compressing your CSS files* ? Images? Flash content? I imagine for a travel website you would want to make your site accessible to modem users, and at 56k speed a 300k homepage sounds like far too much. * http://tools.arantius.com/css-compressor -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Average Page Sizes
On 1/20/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I plead guilty to making lots of large pages (over 300Kb even, a few over 1MB) and each page has seven stylesheets to load, so how many were going to St Ives? I give warnings on title rollovers and some headers that pages are large. Years ago I made quicktime movies to play fslow CDs and now I regret it, having archives of tiny movies at low quality. My site is archived by libraries and I will not make pages small just to worry about data rates that will matter less and less in the future. Are you talking about your personal opinion regarding personal pages or useful advice for a travel site trying to make money from as many people as possible? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Opera problem, too much padding on first load
hello all. On this page: http://www.texto.de/wp-plugins/ When you first load in Opera 9.0, the header is bumped down a bit and doesn't line up with the background. If you refresh, it fixes itself. I don't see this problem in any other browsers. I know I've seen this problem before but I can't remember how to fix it. Any ideas? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/16/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I swear we just had this thread last week, but can't find it in the
back-catalog. Must be getting my lists confused.
Mihael, I share your view that h1img//h1 is a bit ugly. I'm aware
from extensive debate that the following idea is pretty unpopular, but I
like to assign an id to my h1 and style it to display the logo...
h1 id=logoCorporation Ltd./h1
h1#logo
{
display: block;
width: #; height: #;
background-image: url(#);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
text-size: 1px;
text-decoration: none;
color: [background-colour];
text-size: 0;
}
...
and that even if it does
work, any user agent that has disabled images will make the whole h1
illegible. Valid points, but I haven't bumped into them yet to the best
of my knowledge :P.
Maybe because no self-respecting user is going to take the time to
contact you and let you know that your page doesn't quite work for
them.
Then again, it's not the main content of the page... maybe some users
don't care if they can't see it at all.
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Re: [WSG] Shadows on a div?
On 1/13/07, Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/13/07, Tom Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, ... The problem I've got a the minute is I've built a page for a client, but now she would like shadow on either side of the page, I know it would be possible to do it in photoshop/gimp, but the background image is quite complicated, so to 'cut out' the main section, and paste it back with shadow would mess up the look of the background image. So I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas on what to do, or even if there is a bit of code that could be implemented? The page is still in development, and is not live, but if you would like to view it, I have uploaded an image to my Flickr account, so you can see what I'm talking about. The URL is: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom_r07/355733167/ Hi Tom! ... You could also create one background image, that wuld be quite big in width... something like 1700 px... that wuold contain middle space as wide as the site is, with added shadows on both sides... Goodness, I hate it when people do that. A single huge background image is a very heavy solution. If you have the background pattern positioned like so: background: color url(image) CENTER TOP; or TOP CENTER, then the pattern starts from the top-middle just like the content does. Then you have the same segment of the pattern on both sides of the body content all the time. Then you just take a screenshot of your page, cut out what shows of the pattern on both sides and the bottom, add a gradient on top that is a shadow, and add those back in. On the sides you use repeat-y to tile it, and on the bottom you use repeat-x. It's a simple solution that doesn't require massive images or transparent PNGs. And if that makes absolutely no sense to you, let me know and I'll try to put together an example. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shadows on a div?
On 1/13/07, Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/13/07, Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/13/07, Tom Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, ... The problem I've got a the minute is I've built a page for a client, but now she would like shadow on either side of the page, I know it would be possible to do it in photoshop/gimp, but the background image is quite complicated, so to 'cut out' the main section, and paste it back with shadow would mess up the look of the background image. So I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas on what to do, or even if there is a bit of code that could be implemented? The page is still in development, and is not live, but if you would like to view it, I have uploaded an image to my Flickr account, so you can see what I'm talking about. The URL is: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom_r07/355733167/ Hi Tom! ... You could also create one background image, that wuld be quite big in width... something like 1700 px... that wuold contain middle space as wide as the site is, with added shadows on both sides... Goodness, I hate it when people do that. A single huge background image is a very heavy solution. If you have the background pattern positioned like so: background: color url(image) CENTER TOP; or TOP CENTER, then the pattern starts from the top-middle just like the content does. Then you have the same segment of the pattern on both sides of the body content all the time. Then you just take a screenshot of your page, cut out what shows of the pattern on both sides and the bottom, add a gradient on top that is a shadow, and add those back in. On the sides you use repeat-y to tile it, and on the bottom you use repeat-x. It's a simple solution that doesn't require massive images or transparent PNGs. And if that makes absolutely no sense to you, let me know and I'll try to put together an example. Christian, I was not sugestin the use of one big image, but one that is large in width... and duplicates in hegiht... the same as you explained... I am sorry, if I wrote a not understandable suggestion,... I understood the idea, and I didn't mean to come across as angry or anything. The one of using a very wide but short image is not so bad I guess, but it is heavy handed. The solution I gave is more complex on the code side but lighter on the images. Though I should mention that the part about shadowing the bottom is a little harder than I first said... but Tom isn't planning to do that so it's fine :) -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tabbed Navigation newspaper websites review
On 1/12/07, Ruairi Doyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation systems: NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news. INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under Sport for example. Open questions, open opinions very welcome. One of the problems with INDY UK is that it is very natural to click on the top-level link without even noticing that there is a second-level navigation that becomes available. Basically you have some links that just behave like links and then you have other links that behave like links AND dropdowns. It's complicated and hard to catch on. Also, as the page is still loading the second-level change-on-hover doesn't work for a while. I know the NYTIMES doesn't seem like the slick cool solution here, but it's very natural and predictable for users which means less time scratching heads and more time reading the actual articles, which is good for you. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ! I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag. Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always? I have done the following with multiple sites: h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO. As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: @Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render images, full stop? Tyssen Design wrote: The launch of Apple's iPhone could also have a significant impact in this area too. Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability to decide on what's best for the user. IMO the right thing to do is to modify nothing when a handheld stylesheet is present, but if that is not available then use the screen stylesheet and render it down or don't use styles at all. It's easy to argue that mobile browser coders should work on CSS rendering rather than trying to render sites without CSS, but backwards compatibility is always good for business. And that's all IMO. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] History of CSS Question
On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in such a whacky format? By whacky you mean lovely, correct? Can I just go on the record for saying that I think the format is wonderful? For something being used to format (X)HTML, I would have expected XML or something... Formatting it as XML sounds like a good idea for machines and would be nice as an alternative but I think the current format is much more convenient for writing CSS by hand. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using em's as unit measure
On 1/8/07, Martyn Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi
I have a div element with just a few words of text directly in the div, I
have applied padding using em's but when I view this in IE and Firefox IE
seems to make the element larger than it appears in Firefox.
If I put an equal amount of padding all round the div element in Firefox
this places the text to be aligned in the centre of the div, while in IE the
text seems lower down and the div appears a lot larger. Can anybody shed
some light on this?
My guess is that there is margin or padding on another element (the
body, maybe) that is causing the difference in IE. Try the universal
selector:
* { margin:0; padding:0; }
which should remove the discrepancy between browsers, and then go
about eliminating margin and padding individually on different
elements until you find the one that caused the problem.
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Re: [WSG] Does this hurt accessibility
On 1/4/07, John S. Britsios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear members, We are thinking of implementing this service http://www.snap.com/about/spa1A.php on our web site, and our question is, if you think that it can hurt our site accessibility in someway? We sure will implement the noscript tag if that solves the problem. In practice they don't seem inaccessible in the sense that they would make your site inaccessible to users, but at the same time, on every site where I have seen these so far, they are just annoying and slow things down. They are almost as annoying as popup ads, and there isn't much use to having a picture preview of a link you are hovering over. And as Matthew said, that sudden movement can be jarring for users. -- -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] liquid designs hall of fame round 2
Hello all. I just wanted to let everyone know that there is an open vote at Liquid Designs for round 2 of the Hall of Fame, which features the best sites from entries 101-200 at the gallery. There were 5 nominees chosen and for the next couple days anyone can vote for their favorite site from the 5. If you have a moment feel free to visit and cast your vote: http://www.cssliquid.com/2006/news/vote-for-hall-of-fame-round-2/ If you have any comments you can comment on the site or send me an e-mail directly, no need to reply on-list. Thanks in advance. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
On 12/1/06, Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect the best way to create serious (from a design-for-print standpoint) web-to-print systems is to install a php-based pdf generator, because at the end of the day no matter how sophisticated web technologies get, printing from within the browser is always going to leave a world's worth of factors out of your control. I believe Adobe have a very nice system based on this principle. I thought part of the whole web standards thing was joyously embracing the lack of control, and creating styles, for various formats (screen, print, etc) with the fore-knowledge of variety of devices? If we have embraced a lack of control on screen, why not also embrace the lack of control for print? Print has its own standards, and while CSS has some capabilities for it, PDF is an accepted standard that works well. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WebSite Feedback
On 11/25/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4) people who uses hotmail or other webmail services and is innocent like Marvin but being accused by you On 11/25/06, James Crooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone should use Gmail, it would solve annoyances 1 to 4. Actually, the way to solve annoyance 4 is to change your attitude. Telling someone to change their e-mail client is like telling someone to change their browser, and we all know you can't expect that to work. Besides, Gmail may be fancy but I doubt it is very accessible. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WebSite Feedback
On 11/25/06, Eric Colley - GoldSpace.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate it when people trim their message in reply. I'm constantly getting emails from people with some quick answer in response to something, and I have no idea what they are referring to, because they delete the previous text from the email. I think it is a bad idea to trim emails like that. Just my two cents. They are only trying to be courteous: Posting to the list (from http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm) Some basic guidelines before posting to the list: ... * Trim replies where possible -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forms in XHTML 1.1
On 11/24/06, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I've googled without results for the following question why is necessary to place select elements in a div or other block level element in order to validate as XHMTL 1.1? Because *all* inline elements must be inside a *block* level element, and that includes *all* inline elements within a form. You always have to do: form block level ... inlines ... /block /form Or you can do: form block ...inlines... /block block ...more inlines... /block /form I don't have a philosophical answer as to why, but that's the rule. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WebSite Feedback
Marvin, On the main page, you have: Welcome To Marvins Web Portal Page Welcome To Marvins Star Trek Universe Page Welcome To Marvins Awesome Eighties Music Page Welcome To Marvins Disability Portal Page But the main page should probably just have: Welcome To Marvins Web Portal Page And the rest of those headers should be reserved for the internal pages. That way it isn't confusing to have a main page that claims to be 4 different pages. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 11/14/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do most people have ClearType turned off, though? Sadly, I see enough people without it to say that if it isn't on by default, they will never turn it on themselves. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Replacing target attribute in form
On 11/13/06, Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't suppose there's any reason why I shouldn't keep coding to xhtml 1.0 but specify html 4.01 when I need to use the target attribute. That might be a good idea; on the *one* page that uses the target attribute, use the HTML 4.01 doctype (with .. instead of .. /) and you'll never have to worry about maintaining any javascript hacks. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 11/13/06, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're having a GD/programmer meeting tomorrow to try and broaden people's knowledge, and work out a few guidelines about the 'rubbery line' between the GD and the Programmer's CSS responsibility. Does anyone have any experience here, or can point to any resources that might assist? If I am taking a design from a graphic designer, I would just want them to give me the layers and I can go about slicing them manually as necessary to build the design with CSS. There's no need to use awkward layout wizards provided by software like Photoshop or ImageReady; those programs are for making graphics, not webpages. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] semantics for a binary tree?
A friend of mine needs to represent a pedigree (specifically for horses) and is looking for a semantic solution. The current representation: http://www.imperialegyptianstud.com/the-stallions/imperial_shehaab.html uses a table with various rowspans on the cells. I figured this was a sort of binary tree but I can't find anything about representing such a thing semantically in HTML (kind of funny considering HTML is a tree structure, yeah?) What would you recommend in this case? He could do something complicated with lists but then it would be very hard to style (especially horizontally). My initial reaction was just, keep using the table. Thoughts? Thanks in advance. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/12/06, David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may be a dumb question, but what's a conditional statement? David Sorry, I meant conditional comment http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp !--[if lt IE 7.0] style type=text/css ... /style ![endif]-- -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Replacing target attribute in form
On 11/12/06, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking for a simple bit of javascript to do the same for the form, something like form.target = window.open() ... My other question would be do you really need to open a separate window to go to PayPal? I haven't used this feature, but if PayPal will return you eventually to your site, couldn't you just go there in the same window? Just a thought. Agreed. It's more natural for the user if you just allow Paypal to work in the same window and then have it redirect back to your site when the transaction is done. You could even have it redirect to a thank you page. Otherwise, a great solution is to stop trying to fake the standards and just use HTML 4.01... it's clean, well-supported, and it allows targets. No need to rely on Javascript for something that was never broken. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Replacing target attribute in form
On 11/12/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: Otherwise, a great solution is to stop trying to fake the standards and just use HTML 4.01... it's clean, well-supported, and it allows targets. XHTML 1.0 allows the target attribute too in the Transitional DOCTYPE. Don't confuse the syntax of HTML and XHTML with the distinction between the Strict and Transitional DOCTYPEs. Although I do agree that HTML should be used instead of XHTML for many other reasons, I think it's an exceptionally bad idea to attempt to open a new window. But, if you insist on doing so, use a Transitional DOCTYPE with the target attribute because at least that way the user can more easily configure their browser to ignore it. That would be an abuse of the transitional doctype though, which is intended for old, existing pages that are being ported to XHTML strict, rather than new pages in development. It would be silly for Chris to use that doctype, because that would be to indicate that he plans on removing the target attributes, which in my recommendation, he does not. I'm not confusing HTML and XHTML with the distinction between strict and transitional; transitional doesn't belong in the discussion to begin with. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Synthetic speech is not only for the blind
On 11/11/06, Keryx webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello again all! 2. I was reading this article on Opera's new developer community: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/20/ 1. (Yeah the order is right): I have been thinking about a way to listen to my RSS-feeds on my MP3-player, while walking, jogging or driving. They already have services that will convert entries in an RSS feed to audio, and provide those audio files for download on things like iPods. RSS is easy to work with since it is a standard, XML(ish) format. Unfortunately, if you can convert things with RSS, then you can still serve your website with nonstandard table markup. It's like PDF generation; you don't *need* markup that's clean and semantic, just an expensive backend that will do all the work necessary to reformat the content into a PDF. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/11/06, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One thing you need to be aware of, though, is people like me with high resolution screens on our laptops likely have Windows set to 120 DPI. This immediately creates a difference between point-based agents such as IE and Opera, and pixel based ones like Firefox. Text size defaults to 20 pixels on the point-based agents, 16 pixels on the rest. But I do have to ask, so what? Some users (like me) considered that 20 pixel font default a bug (because the scaling is sooo bad) and went about patching it; though it's still a little buggy. Let's just say font-sizes are problematic on these 120 dpi screens; and yes, I try to stick to Firefox for the consistent font sizing. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/11/06, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006/11/11 22:17 (GMT-0500) Christian Montoya apparently typed: Some users (like me) considered that 20 pixel font default a bug (because the scaling is sooo bad) Please explain what you mean by bad scaling. What I meant was that you can scale all of the native windows text (menus, title bars, icons) to accommodate the laptop's ideal settings (120 dpi, 1680x1050 pixels), but you can't scale the actual window text of all apps. It's a big problem because at this ideal setting, all the text is actually too small to comfortably read. So Internet Explorer scales text, and Opera does too, as well as some Windows apps, but Firefox doesn't, and neither do Java apps (which means jEdit is a lot harder to use). A lot of it has to do with the fact that while these computers come with support for 120 dpi, they don't come with adequate support for font-scaling to match 120 dpi at the maximum, factory-shipped display setting. In the end, the 120 dpi, 1680x1050 screen is pretty, but also pretty useless. and went about patching it; though it's still a little buggy. What is it, and how to you patch it? Well, first step was to go down to 1280x800 pixels, and then install a Dell patch to turn the poor image-scaling in IE off (which was terribly pixelated), and then I know there are some more steps that can be taken to stop font-scaling in IE and Opera altogether, but I just decrease the zoom in them slightly and they look fine. Let's just say font-sizes are problematic on these 120 dpi screens; It isn't about 120 DPI. It's about DPIs that vary more than a little from whatever the page designer uses or assumes. Average DPIs have on their way up for quite some time, and won't be stopping any time soon. True, but considering how bad Windows XP handles 120 dpi, I'm not about to put all the blame on the page designer. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] zefrank on web developers
Hey list. Just wanted to let you know that zefrank's videoblog yesterday was about web developers. It's really funny and maybe some can relate? Beware though, there's some bad language if I remember correctly, in case that's a problem. Here's the link: http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/archives/2006/11/110906.html -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/9/06, David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I've tried setting the font-size on the body element as 76% (following Owen Briggs' recommendation: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html) and also font-size:small combined with a box-model hack to account for IE5/Win (Dan Cederholm's bulletproof version) but neither of these work with quirksmode (or at least our version of it). Any thoughts? I've got a deadline looming ... Thanks in advance. David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** You could use conditional comments, or just size the text in pixels... or find a way to remove those comments! -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] best way to style the Tags?
On 11/6/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, What would be the best and creative way to style the tags? You know, like those big small, very big, very small words under the 'tags' title. I vaguely remember reading something that tags are invented by technorati, so I went to pay a visit, and totally clueless when I see these in the markup: liememememememememememememememema href=/tag/BushBush/a/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/ em/em/em/em/em/em/em/li liemememema href=/tag/ComedyComedy/a/em/em/em/ em/li liememememememememema href=/tag/ DemocratsDemocrats/a/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/ em/li liememememememememememema href=/tag/ ElectionElection/a/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/ em/em/li liemememememememememememema href=/tag/ ElectionsElections/a/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/em/ em/em/em/em/li Even if you do manage to put together the most semantic as possible way to represent a tag cloud, you are still much better off using a vertical list, with the top items being the heaviest weighted and descending from there, than having a cloud of tags with no other information than what can be conveyed visually (and what is available, at a limited level, with hundreds of ems or specific classes. Unfortunately, I can't actually find an example of displaying tags in a list instead of in a cloud... I guess nobody does that any more. If I had the time I would make an example, but here's the best I can do: tag list: 1. politics (92) 2. entertainment (81) 3. graphics (56) 4. pets (40) 5. design (38) 6. movies (27) Without any styling at all, this conveys a lot more information than a tag cloud, the semantics are more straightforward, and the markup is much lighter. But this is all IMO; I'm open to what others have to say. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#ClzcCtK3WXzb3aIZxmdB6mR5lyC4TsGV
On 11/6/06, Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i got an email telling me my reply was being scrutinized because i had a suspicious header. all i did was reply to a post. On 11/6/06, Germ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can i please ask what this is about??? OK everyone, I know this was fun but can you please stop replying to this e-mail? It's SPAM and replying to it only clogs up the list. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
On 11/3/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas, you elucidate what I mean pretty well. Christian - I know it's a shame that the only way I could express myself somehow makes standardistas look bad through implication. I don't want to give that idea at all. As for naming and shaming, I object to the notion strongly. The kind of bully I'm referring to doesn't include any particularly accredited or influential tyrants, it's just for the most part faceless extremists who use the banner of good intentions to spout domineering vitriol. To go and 'sort these people out' would be lowering to their level, and besides these people tend to be able to create their own flame wars very easily by themselves! Yeah, I see that now. I guess there's no need to do any sorting, I was just concerned about us turning misunderstandings into serious disagreements. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?
On 11/3/06, Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to see even rough figures on the percentage of standards and accessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. Admittedly I spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we've made a huge amount of progress. I recently contacted all the local web freelancers and agencies when setting up a local community site - perhaps 1/3 had sites that used CSS layout, but then that may be skewed because I found them all via Google, so maybe their expertise got them higher up the search results. By comparison I looked at local agencies in another city a year or so ago, and I was the only one using CSS, at least on my own site. You could always browse a directory like http://www.xemion.com/ by region and look at the portfolios of various designers/agencies. I think you'll find we are definitely in the minority. Where I am (Ithaca NY), there's very little CSS-based work; they even teach outdated practices: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/11/02/advanced-html/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 11/3/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/11/2006, at 1:22 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Because the solution (yes, solution for a silly problem) has to work when the document is PRINTED. That means that it has to be either a plain HTML or print CSS technique. When I open up my favorite website in either IE, Opera, Firefox or Safari, and modify the content / layout using Javascript...it doesn't print the original DOM. It prints the modified DOM. Are you saying this doesn't work for you? Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference. The point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript solutions produce the same end-result. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas [WAS: Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers]
On 11/2/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards as a concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more and more I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemn certain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility. *** DISCLAIMER *** This has nothing to do with the person who said this, nor is it an attack related in any way to the original topic. I am not even discrediting the validity of this statement. I'm really tired of hearing about rotten standardistas without any information as to who these people are. I have never met a standardista I didn't like, and I assume that this opinion can only be formed of a standardista by misunderstandings. From now on, please stop with the vague references to these rotten standardistas... they are becoming like ghosts; everyone talks about them but no one has ever seen them. Moreover, such vague references only undermine the entire community of web-standards-enthusiasts and gives more fodder to our detractors. If you have been the victim of a rotten standardista, please refer to them by name and give us the URL of their blog or portfolio, so we can resolve the possible misunderstandings or out these rotten people altogether. Otherwise I will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist. Thanks in advance. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
On 11/2/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: Otherwise I will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist. There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. does that count? As an example of the kind of empty talk I'm tired of, yes. That statement doesn't say who these people are or where they said it. I'm not saying this to open up a whole lot of finger pointing and cause a whole lot of argument among list members. I'm not trying to create friction at all. I'm just saying that if you open up a discussion among a web-standards-community and give us a long dissertation on the problems you have had with apparent standardistas, give us something tangible to show that these standardistas exist. Otherwise we can't tell who said what, why what was said, or get into why there may have been a misunderstanding in the first place. If it is something that was said on list, it's as easy as searching the list archives and pointing us to the prior thread, which is helpful for a lot of other reasons. My whole reasoning for this is because most of the time (especially on this list), what is said that is perceived as detrimental is actually true, and we simply have to be able to take the range of opinions and information posed by all the people involved and know how to make the right choices. So for the example you posed, at least you were specific in what was said, and as it turns out from Rob's response: Different users may have an unusual default font-size set, if you set anything other than the default font-size *on the body* it means they end up not getting the size they wanted/need. You can set your different font-sizes on the elements within at your leisure. ... there is some merit to what the font-size fanatics are saying and there's something to be learned from addressing it. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
On 11/2/06, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant Jello layout from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window when zoomed out (Ctrl -). Even Nick Cowie's Elastic fluid design [2] suffers this fate. Does anyone have a solution? Cordially, David -- [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html [2] http://nickcowie.com/2006/elastic-fluid-design-some-notes/ Submit a bug report to the Microsoft IE team. Seriously, the page zoom feature is buggy in many ways, and as much as I know we would all LOVE to figure out a way around it, the first step in dealing with the problem is calling it what it is: a bug. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
On 11/3/06, Donna Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant Jello layout from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window when zoomed out (Ctrl -). Even Nick Cowie's Elastic fluid design [2] suffers this fate. Does anyone have a solution? Hi David: I'm curious how this differs from Opera's zoom. That's the way Opera seems to work to me. I don't even have IE7 yet but have been thinking that its having Zoom will mean a lot more attention paid to dealing with its Zoom. I saw in a screen shot that the Zoom is very out-front, being on the bottom-right of the status bar, so that means more people will be using it. Its a totally different thing than increasing the font-size and I'm assuming there will be more discussion of it, as IE7 becomes more prevalent. Just realized I have my invite from MS to download IE7!! That little update icon has been showing for a bit but I hadn't bothered to check it (I don't have auto updates on). Yes, I guess its time, November 1 is what they said and now it is November 2. Well, it will have to wait, I want to check out the standalone IE6 stuff first. It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could tell us how the Zooms are similar or different. I don't have time to share screenshots, but they both handle pages like: [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html somewhat differently, though come to think of it, I wouldn't say it's wrong. Turns out David seems to think that zoom keeps the page within the viewport, which is not how zoom works... both implementations have their issues, and a simple text-resizing feature would probably be helpful for both browsers. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards sites with clever use of Flash?
On 10/31/06, Eystein Alnaes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To the list, I'm looking for webstandards/css complaint sites with flash in them. Clever flash, flash that looks Ajaxy, heavy good actionscripting, innovative menus, generic random animation... Those sort of things. The only one I can remember, but not find again, was for an ISP (I think), had a web2.0-look with dark background and some cartoon-animated buttons. Allthough I'm looking for more than that. ~Eys Off the top of my head: http://www.dp3marketing.com/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards sites with clever use of Flash?
On 10/31/06, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/06, Eystein Alnaes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To the list, I'm looking for webstandards/css complaint sites with flash in them. Clever flash, flash that looks Ajaxy, heavy good actionscripting, innovative menus, generic random animation... Those sort of things. The only one I can remember, but not find again, was for an ISP (I think), had a web2.0-look with dark background and some cartoon-animated buttons. Allthough I'm looking for more than that. ~Eys OK, Stylegala is the best place to look. A bunch of examples: http://www.hellgatelondon.com/ https://www.widsets.com/ http://web.burza.hr/en/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] list-style: decimal
On 10/31/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, OL gives a 25 pixel default space between number and the content. There isn't seemed a way to override it, this is really undesirable. You should change the margin or padding on the OL or LI, one of those settings decides the space between the numbers and the text. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash is more accessible than CSS?
On 10/29/06, Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29/10/06 2:15 AM, Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) can't highlight/copy text. It's been a while since I've used Flash in anger (as a developer), so I could be suffering from memory fatigue here, but I'm pretty sure you *can* make text in Flash selectable. It's just not the default. Perhaps someone who uses it more regularly than I do these days can confirm (or deny) this. You can. Just look at any use of sIFR without linked text... you can highlight the text and copy it. The feature itself is not so well implemented though... it's sort of slow and choppy compared to highlighting basic HTML text, but it's there. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash is more accessible than CSS?
On 10/28/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Says the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/6090418.stm BBC NEWS | Programmes | Click | Designing a more accessible web please send comments to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/6041492.stm#Email BBC NEWS | Programmes | Click | Send us your comments It's a really poor article altogether. The writer only interviewed *1* person, not an expert, and clearly someone with their own bias. The writer talked about *1* website, a completely unique example which took *a lot* of money and work to accomplish. The writer didn't do her research about CSS, and never mentioned section 508, valid HTML or any of the other HTML-based accessibility/well-formedness measures. The writer also mentioned *1* court case, and made it seem like only *1* person has a problem with Target. That's just not how you write articles. Throwing together all this barely related information results in an article that is just about useless to the reader. Roberto Scano wrote: I will take the first sentence and turn to the article writer: What does web accessibility mean to you? Probably not a lot. Exactly. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
On 10/26/06, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/18/revisiting-image-rollovers/ If you're talking about the Ryan Rollovers that you link to, it looks very similar to the Gilder-Levin method which is mentioned at http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/ (dated 2004) and was updated to become the Gilder Levin Ryznar Jacoubsen method - http://www.ryznardesign.com/web_coding/image_replacement/ Oh well, in 2004 I thought CSS was just for scrollbar colors... but I still don't know how image replacement is similar to image rollovers. Did you notice that Ryan's rollover, um, changes on roll-over? Not that any of this is on topic, so I'll leave it at that. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] DOM created table markup [was: Accessible Multi-Column List]
On 10/26/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/26/06, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10/26/2006 04:06 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Hi Paul, What about this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ ;-) Table-based markup! How ingenious! You're a regular pioneer of the untrod realms, Thierry. I highly doubt that the idea of using tables for layout will ever catch on =) I don't agree :-) IMO, the goal should be to deliver the *cleanest* document possible, with the least amount of structural hack, hook, etc. In the example I posted, one can't get cleaner than that. The only issue I see is that screen-readers end up with a table. But I have an idea about this: what about going one step further than styles switchers, why not implementing *behavior* switchers? I mean, any fail-safe solution that targets visual browsers could be turned off. I'd say that would be more valuable for many users than giving them a choice between different skins or text-size ;-) This document is semantic and has nothing extra to parse: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ on top of that, it is possible to make the list display across different number of columns without having to edit the markup nor the stylesheet; actually, there is *no* stylesheet ;) Disabling the script is all what is needed for screen-readers to speak the links in the proper sequence. Think about it... ;-) Oh, I've been thinking about it. I've been wondering three things: 1. Can't you get the same result by using display:table? (granted, it would be hard) 2. Wouldn't it be better to use the dom to split the list into two lists and display them side by side? (how does the table work if there is an odd number of items?) 3. How does this expect to deal with user agents that look at *generated source* and not original source? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Image replaced rollovers
On 10/26/06, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but I still don't know how image replacement is similar to image rollovers. Because they're *image replaced* rollovers. Did you notice that Ryan's rollover, um, changes on roll-over? Yes I did. All that's different from the Gilder-Levin links is that Ryan's moving the background-image on :hover. The image replacement method is still the same. Oh ok, I get it now. Well, I imagine Ryan might have looked up Gilder-Levin at some point... but that's his call, not mine. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] link:active = keyboard focus?
On 10/26/06, Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems keyboard focus is totally independent of mouse focus. If you first tab through a menu and then switch to the mouse and give an item focus (without clicking on the page), you will have two items in focus. Let's not confuse terminology. A mouse does not focus, it hovers. And yes, giving focus to one link and hover to another activates both states at the same time, but I can't imagine how else that would work. I would like to know where my keyboard and mouse* are at the same time anyway. But back to the original topic, active means a link that has been clicked or entered and is loading. Interestingly enough, if you have a link submit to #, then when you click it, it stays on the active/focus state (depending on the browser). It's hard to explain, so I'll give an example: http://cssplay.co.uk/menu/book.html * I mean, trackball. Mice are silly. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
On 10/25/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hassan Schroeder wrote: Thierry Koblentz wrote: It was about using SS-I *without* server-side scripting. which was exactly my point -- vanilla SSI meets the requirement :-) And it's a very good point ;-) I always thought the echo directive didn't work in shtml pages (only include), but it *does*. I guess this is one more reason to never use htm or html, but at least shtml. No? What would be the reason for choosing htm or html for file extension? Youthful ignorance? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
On 10/25/06, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On my site, the links only appear when an administrative user is logged in. From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links Oh great, so for the mere mortal users these already cryptic and useless links can become even more useless and cryptic because, when clicked, they then take them to an even more ominous error page? For that, you might as well just put the links in your toolbar... when you click a link in your toolbar (such as your bookmarks) you send the referrer, so you can easily validate any site as long as the link is in your browser. The day more and more features are provided by the browser and not by the website, the day the Internet moves forward. - me -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit
On 10/25/06, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in case you ugys haven't seen this yet: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061024/ap_on_bi_ge/business_of_life Kelly Groehler, a spokeswoman for Best Buy Co., says the company has made a number of changes to its site since late last year, including incorporating alt tags — or text that labels items like graphics — into its site. alt tags ... groan... but thanks so much for this article, and big props to Best Buy for being proactive. I like this part: Other retailers are making similar efforts, but it remains a challenge due to the continuing evolution in the technologies used by blind people to surf the Internet, says Scott Silverman, executive director of Shop.org, a division of the National Retail Federation for online retailers. As the retailers' Web sites continue to evolve to stay competitive in the marketplace, sometimes the technologies necessary to do that are a little bit ahead of where the screen-readers are, Silverman said. It's a very fast-moving environment. Retailers want to serve all their customers, including blind people. Maybe, just maybe, some standards for how web sites are made would be a good idea? Then, as long as the sites fit those standards, then maybe it would be easier to assume that the screenreaders can understand them? Maybe these standards could be called, oh, I don't know... ... wait for it... webstandards? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabindex doesn't work
On 10/24/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, this is the first time I try implementing tabindex for navigation. http://new.marinersq.com/html/thierry.html The above page has 6 menu tabs and I have them set from tabindex=1, tabindex=2 and so on...but nothing happens when I try to tab them. I tried using combination of 'shift', 'alt', 'control' and 'command'. Don't know the problem here, but you might be better off just putting those menu links as high in the source as possible and letting users reach them naturally. Tabindex can be especially difficult, especially when users are tabbing through forms (first tab takes you to menu, not the next form field). -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
On 10/24/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thierry Koblentz wrote: Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Include files are your friend (even humble SSIs, if there's no server-side scripting language available) You're right about using referer, it's not reliable. But include files won't make the links submit differently (depending on which document host them), and I think that's what Tee is after. Yes, SSIs wouldn't, but I'd think with proper scripting languages you could have includes which then, in turn, echo out the current page's url as parameter for the validator link. Very, very easy to do with PHP, for example, and just about any other decent scripting language. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 - IE7
On 10/18/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rahul Gonsalves wrote: I will not be allowing IE7 to be installed on my main computer, until most of the bugs have been worked out, and a couple of security updates have been applied :-). You are doing this even though IE 7 is supposed to be much safer than IE 6? I mean, I know it probably won't be more stable, but safe? IE 6? Hmmm? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 - IE7
On 10/17/06, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With the public release of IE7 nearly on us I'm just wondering whether it's better to download the fix to stop IE7 installing via automatic update and continue to use IE7 as a standalone, or let IE7 replace IE6 and then install a standalone for IE6. What would be the pros and cons of each method? I have a hunch (just a hunch) that the standalone of IE 6 will be more stable than that of IE 7. Don't know if it's true, but if it is, then you would probably be better off having IE 6 as a standalone. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] SiteAdvisor.com
On 10/13/06, Dan Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Fellow Standardistas, Tonight, My colleague and I had to remove all links to the WebStandardsGroup.com web site from our own site. Why, might you ask? Here are the nasty details. McAfee has created a tool called SiteAdvisor which rates whether or not pages are good, bad, or marginal, based on installation of spyware/adware, generating spam e-mails, etc. People *use* this? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] SiteAdvisor.com
On 10/13/06, John S. Britsios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are users who use that. We did not know this tool, until we got an email through our site contact form today(name, etc hidden respecting their privacy): You have been contacted by: Roy (xxx:xxx) from Ip Address: xxx.xxx.xxx.xx with Email Address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://xxx.xxx.net Locale: en Comments: Thought you should know: http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/webnauts.net?ref=safeaff_id=0 If you install their extension, make a search for something at google, and you will also see what happens. Thats all I can tell so far. Interestingly enough, if you go to their contact page: http://www.siteadvisor.com/about/contact.html the option to send them complaints is not available yet...this is actually making me really mad. SiteAdvisor was founded in April 2005 by a group of MIT engineers I'm starting to wonder about those MIT engineering programs... -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] can the legend include block level elements
On 10/13/06, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all I've come across a question that I can't find an answer to. I'm building a form that has fully valid use of fieldsets, legends, labels, etc. It was suggested by a person using a screen reader that I transform the legends to headers or insert headers into the legend for the screen reader to generate the header-based navigation. I would ditch the legend and just use a header, unless some screenreaders would ignore it... then you would be in a difficult situation. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] would someone tell me where
On 10/13/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, i have seen small css and xhtml w3c icons to place on pages. would someone tell me where i can obtain these small icons? dwain 1. http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10.png 2. http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10.gif 3. http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/images/vcss There should be more around the validator page: http://validator.w3.org/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On 10/12/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Revisit my post :) I said it was less common than a succession of DDs Out of Russ's 7 examples [1] there is not one with 2 DTs following each other ;) [1] http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ My problem with this programmer is that he did not use the word common, but rather standard. As if to imply that Tee's use of definition lists is something she pulled out of a hat from magical css-web4.0 land* that should never be used in a production environment. Maybe I'm being a little extreme here, but I'm just looking at what standard means to someone from the programming world. * I plan to move there soon. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tee G. Peng wrote: Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting. Alright Tee, Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have multiple dds ? Yes. Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be why. Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as long as it is a block by default in this case. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problems were with a liquid form layout I was doing for a new cms with tooltips floated left and the labels and form controls in regular flow inside the dd's. Plus nearly everything had % widths which doesn't make things any easier for IE. Anyway, fluid stuff and floats can cause some issues if the CSS is not specific enough but quirksmode sorted it all out in the end. Ah, sounds like issues with liquid and floats, which like to conflict with Javascript, which tends to work well only with things that have exact dimensions and are static. One way or another, the problem is not with the DLs, and I can't imagine why the programmer *can't* do this with DLs at all. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] swift - only windows browser with a webkit?
On 10/10/06, libwebdev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks, Lachlan wrote: It's got a terrible user interface... Would also be nice if the Tools menu actually worked (I click, nothing happens). One site I tested got rendered without styles but the same site looks just fine with BrowsrCamp.com. Interesting. I had some problems with Swift and had to uninstall it. I think it had to do with the face that it's just too young and buggy right now. The live CD option sounds a lot better. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Pure* CSS drop down menu
On 10/6/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this menu: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/new_drop_down/AB.asp I would recommend somehow positioning the sub-list to line up with the upper link that makes it appear. As it is, all sub-lists align left, which makes it very unintuitive when hovering over upper-items along the right. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Bad Design Principles
On 10/4/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Need I say anymore? www.hansermusicgroup.com Thoughts? We all know the site is bad and *why* it's bad... so what's the point of discussing it? Unless there's something standards-related to gain from this discussion, there's no real point to having a bunch of replies that say yes, it sucks. But I'm not a moderator or anything and I'm certainly not saying this is against list policies... I'm just saying it's a waste of time. If you would like us to share arguments you can use to convince the site designer to change it, then that's totally different. In which case I would say: this will never market well... it does nothing at all for search engines which pretty much ruins the whole point of having an info/about us site like this. It's just too bad that the guys at Hanser got ripped off. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Article: using JS to plug IMG in headings
On 10/4/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this article: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/the_perfect_image_replacement_technique.asp I would just suggest changing the perfect to a better. Because, you know, there is always room for improvement. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] is DL deprecated? (was: looking for site-ot)
I gave this thread a new title, which is helpful when the subject of a thread changes... On 10/4/06, Kevin McMonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also a question raised by his post - Are dl's deprecated? they work well for displaying business listings from a database and seem semantic to me. Post in question: http://joshuaink.com/blog/820/egomanager-beta I don't think that was his point at all (to imply that DL is deprecated)... since I'm certain it's not even true. I think his point was that some gutsy frontend designers try to use DL's in situations when a TABLE would actually be the right thing, when there is clear columnar data and only one DD per DT. Which reminds me... I can think of one time that I was guilty of doing that. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Bad Design Principles
On 10/4/06, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/4/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Need I say anymore? www.hansermusicgroup.com Thoughts? ... this will never market well... it does nothing at all for search engines which pretty much ruins the whole point of having an info/about us site like this. It's just too bad that the guys at Hanser got ripped off. On 10/4/06, Mark Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian, For the less experienced could you unpack your statement some. That is, tell us more about the *why*. ma As I said, without any textual information on the page (look at the source... just a bunch of img tags without even alt attributes), there's nothing for a search bot (that's a machine that doesn't have eyes) to pick up. A search bot goes through that page and says, there's nothing here but a bunch of images and javascript. I have no information. I can't tell what's going on. Heck, the page doesn't even have META descriptions or keywords! Not that search engines like Google pay attention to that stuff anymore, but after you read the title of the page, there's nothing left to examine. This is not how you make a site search-engine friendly. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
