Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

[Dave Hodgkinson]

Robin Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> (Sadly I no longer have shell access to any four-processor Sun
> machines to confirm this.)

Which reminds me.

How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff?
We've erm, "acquired" an enterprise 420. this box has 2 CPUs, 4G or
RAM and about 80G of disk. For the same money I could build a clutster
of what, 30 linux boxes? Don't tell me programmer time has got that
expensive? Or that thinking about what you're doing stopped happening?
If it's good enough for Google...

Help me out here!


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -

Fwd: [uri@sysarch.com: free copy of data munging with perl]

[Dave Cross]

I'd be failing in my duty as group leader if I didn't pass on this
announcement from the Perl Mongers Group Leaders mailing list :)

Dave...

- Forwarded message from Uri Guttman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:25:55 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: free copy of data munging with perl


this is forwarded from manning and they are offering each pm group a
free copy of data munging with perl by dave cross.

uri

New Book Announcement: Data Munging with Perl by David Cross

January 18, 2001

This message is being sent to you as a representative of a Perl Mongers
group. To learn more about one of Manning's newest Perl books and to find
out how to get a complimentary copy for your group, please read the
following announcement.
_

Manning Publications Co. announces the release of Data Munging with Perl.
The ebook edition is available now exclusively from the publisher's web
site, www.manning.com/cross. The print edition will be available later in
this month.

The transformation of data from one format to another, colloquially
"munging," is one of the most common programmer tasks. This new Manning book
examines this important process in detail and shows how well suited Perl is
for these tasks. Although aspects of data munging are much discussed online
within the Perl community, this is the first Perl book entirely focused on
munging.

The book covers appropriate methods for reading and writing various data
formats, from unstructured text files through record based file formats and
binary data, to highly structured formats like HTML and XML. XML is fast
becoming one of the most frequently seen data formats and this book is the
first to cover XML processing with Perl in some depth. The book culminates
with techniques for building parsers that will handle any file format you
are likely to need. If you are a programmer who munges data, this book will
save you time. It will teach you systematic and powerful techniques using
Perl.

What's inside:
~ Using CPAN modules like Number::Format, Date::Manip, Text::CSV_XS
~ Making your code concise using Perl's special variables (like $/, $"
  and $_) 
~ Building data parsers using Parse::RecDescent ~ Processing of
HTML and XML

For a closer look at Data Munging with Perl, Manning offers components of
the book online: the Table of Contents, two sample chapters, the Index,
source code and direct access to the author's expertise via the Author
Online discussion forum. . Even those who do not own the book can tap into
these features. Just go to www.manning.com/cross.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR...
Dave Cross is the owner and Managing Director of Magnum Solutions Ltd., an
Internet and database consultancy based in London. He has 12 years'
experience working in the IT industry. He is an active member of the Perl
community, the founder of the London Perl Mongers, and is a regular
columnist for Perlmonth, the online Perl magazine.

MANNING'S USER GROUP PROGRAM...
Manning actively supports user groups by donating complementary copies of
our books for presentation at meetings, for raffle prizes and for group
libraries. For a copy of this book, please email your request to Helen
Trimes at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please include the book title, format (print or
ebook), your name, the user group's name and your shipping address.

As a small but growing computer book publisher, we appreciate the value of
word of mouth. You can help by posting book reviews on a mailing list, on a
Web site, in a magazine or ezine, on a newsgroup or at an online bookstore.
Manning is committed to supporting the Perl community and we appreciate your
interest in Manning books. Please inquire about author speaking engagements
at user group meetings by contacting [EMAIL PROTECTED]

MANNING'S INNOVATIVE EBOOKS PROGRAM.
Manning ebooks, downloaded in pdf format, contain the complete text and
illustrations of the printed edition, plus a linked index and bookmarks to
every entry in the Table of Contents. To order Data Munging with Perl, ebook
edition, go to the publisher's Web site
http://www.manning.com/cross/ebook.html. At $13.50, it is a considerable
saving off the printed edition. As an added perk, buyers of the ebook who
later decide to purchase the print edition will receive a $13.50 discount.
That is like getting the ebook free. To take advantage of this offer, you
must order both editions from the Manning site.

BUY MANNING BOOKS.
Data Munging with Perl, ebook edition is available now in PDF format. Watch
for the release of Data Munging with Perl, print edition at an introductory
discount of 20% off at the publisher's Web site later this month.
Information on telephone and FAX orders is also available at the site, but
the 20% discount applies *only* to online orders of the printed version of
this book.

Manning print editions are available from the publisher's Web site and
everywhere that techn

Re: Mailing List Archive

[alex]

a public archive containing all our email addresses is obviously bad.
no-spam countermeasures help, but it's an ugly solution..

it's also about atmosphere.  i don't like contributing to a friendly,
discussive list that's archived and searchable by anyone who happens to
drop by.  mutual trust is a valuable thing.

-- 
i recommend dramatically combined, shaped snack pastries for business.

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Robin Szemeti]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, you wrote:
> * Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > 
> > I must admit I don;t particularly like the idea of someone else holding
> > this info though .. I mean .. its like 'ours' innit .. but i have no
> 
> i'm sure you could do something in your sig, along the lines of
> 
> this email is copyright of robin szemeti , archiving of this email
> is strictly prohibetted
> 
> and then call them up/fax them/go sit in their lobby/email them etc.
> telling them how they shouldnt be doing this

he he .. 

to be fair I don;t really mind em doing it sorta .. I means its useful
innit .. but I do get a funny 'they dint ask me first .. are they going
to become millioaires on the advertising revenue and I dont get a penny'
sorta thing ...

and as any fule kno .. just because you publish it on a public channel
does NOT mean you don't have copyright on what was written wether its
explicitly stated or not. (in the UK at least)

ahh whatever lifes too short to worry about it ... 

since this is being archived .. next week lottery numbers are ;

2
7
20
23
34
38

you just see if im right ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Mailing List Archive

[David Cantrell]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:24:07PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:

> It isn't a question of google finding out about you: it is about how
> much information you want made available to complete strangers. How
> would you feel if a member of this list was sacked because someone
> accessed an archive and noticed a post during work hours?

If it was me sacked, I'd think "fine.  Bunch of cunts.  I don't want to
work for people like that anyway.  Oh, hello mr headhunter, how much
more are you offering?"

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

  This is nice.  Any idea what body-part it is?

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Greg McCarroll]

* James Powell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> To make it harder for google to find you - change your name Prince style.
> 

good idea!

- greg of wales


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Greg McCarroll]

* Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> I must admit I don;t particularly like the idea of someone else holding
> this info though .. I mean .. its like 'ours' innit .. but i have no

i'm sure you could do something in your sig, along the lines of

this email is copyright of robin szemeti , archiving of this email
is strictly prohibetted

and then call them up/fax them/go sit in their lobby/email them etc.
telling them how they shouldnt be doing this

better still if everybody did this for just one or two messages
a year it would cause chaos

muhahahahahahahaha



-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Mailing List Archive

[James Powell]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:24:44PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> * Robin Houston ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:14:08PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
> > >   o grow up
> > 
> > Hey! No need to get defensive till you lose the vote :-)
> > 
> 
> i vote for no vote, keep things as they are
> 
> if people object to their views being public, don't post them in what
> is a public forum - if this is still a problem, then the question should
> be should london.pm become a private forum, with people being added after
> a vote - this smells fishy to me ;-) ;-) ;-) [1]
> 
> personally, the day london.pm becomes a private, invite only forum, i'll
> be off to london-public.pm's mailing list (this may make london.pm even 
> more popular for those sensitive to signal/noise) - as for google knowing 
> too much about you, welcome too 1984+17

I don't have a problem with it, apart from not knowing about it beforehand,
especially as mail-archive.com doesn't seem to reveal email addresses
but I think making the list "private" is a different argument from putting
up a web-accessible archive.

To make it harder for google to find you - change your name Prince style.

jp

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Robin Szemeti]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, you wrote:
> Robin Houston sent the following bits through the ether:
> 
> > - This is a public list. Anyone can subscribe using an advertised
> >   address.
> 
> This is the key point. It is a public list. If you don't like the idea
> that your potential employers or employees could read everything you
> write then:
>   o grow up
>   o conversations in the pub are not the same as a mailing list
>   o people are leaky in real life - it pays to be honest all the time

at first I thouught 'ooh an archive .. thats kewl'

then someone mentioned it was a public archive, outside our control ...
'uhh oh!  I don't like that! .. I mean I could say somethng about someone
and they could find it and .. eeug'

and then I thought 'but .. on the other hand the person could be
subscribed RIGHT NOW anyway .. so i guess it makes no difference.. mean
what you say and say what you mean.  so .. an archive .. kewl :)'

I must admit I don;t particularly like the idea of someone else holding
this info though .. I mean .. its like 'ours' innit .. but i have no
objection to an archive per-se, even a public one.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Kieran Barry]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Leon Brocard wrote:

> Robin Houston sent the following bits through the ether:
> 
> > - This is a public list. Anyone can subscribe using an advertised
> >   address.
> 
> This is the key point. It is a public list. If you don't like the idea
> that your potential employers or employees could read everything you
> write then:
>   o grow up
>   o conversations in the pub are not the same as a mailing list
>   o people are leaky in real life - it pays to be honest all the time
> 
> I'm proud of everything google finds out about me. Why shouldn't you
> be?
> 
I go trawling search engines to see what they turn up about me also.
It's fun.

But

It isn't a question of google finding out about you: it is about how
much information you want made available to complete strangers. How
would you feel if a member of this list was sacked because someone
accessed an archive and noticed a post during work hours?

Bear in mind, we are living with Big Brother now.

Regards

Kieran

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Paul Makepeace]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:24:44PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> [1] you++ to anyone who gets the joke apart from stevem

This is clearly a red ha^Herring. Ignore.

Besides, 

Paul

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Greg McCarroll]

* Robin Houston ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:14:08PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
> >   o grow up
> 
> Hey! No need to get defensive till you lose the vote :-)
> 

i vote for no vote, keep things as they are

if people object to their views being public, don't post them in what
is a public forum - if this is still a problem, then the question should
be should london.pm become a private forum, with people being added after
a vote - this smells fishy to me ;-) ;-) ;-) [1]

personally, the day london.pm becomes a private, invite only forum, i'll
be off to london-public.pm's mailing list (this may make london.pm even 
more popular for those sensitive to signal/noise) - as for google knowing 
too much about you, welcome too 1984+17

i saw a good post today on abou, someone was complaigning that the older
sci-fi books were crap because they were too close to reality (they
didn't realise the significance of this and so were flamed, the flame
got to abou)

grep - i was called this by a non-london.pmer recently

[1] you++ to anyone who gets the joke apart from stevem

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Robin Houston]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:14:08PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
>   o grow up

Hey! No need to get defensive till you lose the vote :-)

 .robin.

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Leon Brocard]

Robin Houston sent the following bits through the ether:

> - This is a public list. Anyone can subscribe using an advertised
>   address.

This is the key point. It is a public list. If you don't like the idea
that your potential employers or employees could read everything you
write then:
  o grow up
  o conversations in the pub are not the same as a mailing list
  o people are leaky in real life - it pays to be honest all the time

I'm proud of everything google finds out about me. Why shouldn't you
be?

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... Bioengineers wear designer genes

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Robin Houston]

Well, this discussion has been beaten to death on IRC,
so I feel like I'm repeating myself here. But for the
public record: ;-)


- This is a public list. Anyone can subscribe using an advertised
  address.
- We're not plotting to bring down the government.
- "Information wants to be free."  Old emails live for ever.


However:

- Google already knows more about me than I'd like ;-)
- We don't need an archive: it's not exactly going to
  contain useful information.
- The hoarders among us will have our own archives.


So I vote against a public archive.

 .robin.

Re: Mailing List Archive

[Michael Stevens]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:20:28PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
> >From the discussion on IRC, it seems that Leon's summary mail has opened
> a bit of a can of worms. There are a number of people who don't like the
> idea of a publically advertised archive of this mailing list.

For the record, I don't like the idea.

Mailing List Archive

[Dave Cross]

>From the discussion on IRC, it seems that Leon's summary mail has opened
a bit of a can of worms. There are a number of people who don't like the
idea of a publically advertised archive of this mailing list.

It seems that mail-archive.com have been archiving our list for some
time and anyone who knows about mail-archive can find anything posted
to our list.

I just wanted to make sure that anyone knew that this was happening and
give everyone the chance to air their views. If the majority are against
it then I'll do what I can to prevent it.

In there meantime, you might be interested to know that mail-archive
claims that they honour the X-No-Archive mail header.

Dave...

-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Data Munging with Perl

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Steve Mynott [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>I just installed my own totally separate version of Perl 5.6 in
*>/usr/local, used that and have had no problems to date, although its
*>best to explicitly state '/usr/local/bin/perl' to prevent confusion
*>and have that first in your PATH.
*>
*>I don't think Sun's Perl is actually broken [1] other than being old but
*>the CPAN stuff is setup to use Sun's Workshop CC rather than GCC and
*>you have to hack /usr/perl5/5.00503/sun4-solaris/Config.pm if you want
*>to use CPAN.

Sun's Perl is not broken. At least, no more than Perl itself. If you use
Sun's Perl, you must very predictibly need a copy of FORTE C/C++
workshop. If you do not, leave it be and install your own. I don't
recommend tinkering with OEM software.

*>There was a similar problem with some of the compiler options in a
*>system file for either imake or xmkmf which you have to fix to get
*>xsnow to run (this was last month when I was feeling all seasonal).

That's because Suns xmkmf is in /usr/dt or /usr/openwin and if you don't
have CC, again, this will fail. You need X11 and your own xmkmf to make it
use gcc.

*>Sun recommend leaving their version of perl installed because it is
*>used by kstat(1) and I suspect installs are likely to start using it.

kstat is way cool, leave the OEM Perl alone :)

*>BTW does any know why Sun refer to cpu0 and cpu2 and not 0 and 1?  Is
*>it a marketing thing so the number 2 appears as an obvious second
*>processor or is there a real reason?

Yes, get out the manual for your box. Depending on the model, it is the
slot that it is in. use 'psrinfo -v' and 'prtconf' should give you a bit
more of an idea. On a 2-way 220R, they are cpu0 and cpu2 but on a 2-way
440R they are cpu1 and cpu2. It really depends on the board. On the
latter, slot4 is cpu1... on a 2-way E450, 1 and 3, on an E250, 0 and 1. 

I actaully possess a field manual that I shouldn't technically have that
also explains some of  the 'logic' behind this.

*>[1] Although it's a pity they haven't put any POD docs in the
*>Sun::Solaris stuff

You might mention this to Alan though I think Sun prefers man pages.

e.

Re: odd -w effect

[Roger Burton West]

On or about Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:48:50PM +, Redvers Davies typed:

>If you run enlightment as a windowmanager you can use the URL
>epplet.  You simply highlight the URL (or a lump of text which contains
>a URL) and click "www", "ftp" or "get".  WWW opens up a web browser,
>ftp opens up an xterm with ftp running and connected and "get" runs
>wwwget and saves the file in your local directory.

The collected genius of London.pm should be able to come up with a
perl/Tk program to do this.

In fact, had I not had to do some actual work today, I'd probably have
written one already. Thus is genius constrained and (cont. p94)

R

Re: odd -w effect

[Redvers Davies]

> to delete the URL in a browser window and then paste. Being
> able to click it and then hit ^V is *much* nicer (in Windows)
> than this manual delete time wastage.

If you run enlightment as a windowmanager you can use the URL
epplet.  You simply highlight the URL (or a lump of text which contains
a URL) and click "www", "ftp" or "get".  WWW opens up a web browser,
ftp opens up an xterm with ftp running and connected and "get" runs
wwwget and saves the file in your local directory.

Red

Re: Dream weaver

[Mark Fowler]

> > DREAMWEAVER 3.0- Training Dates Now Available!
> > ==
> > With Dreamweaver being adopted by up to 90% of development companies
> > worldwide, Focus Group are now providing cost effective, scheduled and
> > company specific Dreamweaver training, offering Developers the
> > opportunity to gain extensive skills in  just 2 days.  

What's a 'development company' when it's at home?  Also, note that
Developers is being used as a proper noun here (as in, what Focus group
consider a Developer to be)

Later.

Mark.

(Who works in marketing and remembers the phrase about not trying to
bullshit a bullshiter)

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_>6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  => 'Mark Fowler',Title => 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  => 'Profero Ltd',Web   => 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email => '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone => '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )

Re: word processors

[Redvers Davies]

> I generally find myself writing outlines on paper or in textpad and then
> finishing in MSWord, since that's how everyone wants the final product.

I refuse to provide documentation in Word as its prone to editing by
others.  For me, Lyx -> Latex -> PDF.  PGP sign and deliver.

Re: JOB: desperately seeking symbian

[Greg McCarroll]

* Steve Mynott ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > you dont want this job, you'd have to sit near me ;-)
> 
> The upside of this is that you are likely to get the occasional
> chocolate bar thrown in your direction!
> 

i only buy chocolate for good little programmers not evil
testers/technical authors

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Dream weaver

[Struan Donald]

* at 25/01 15:56 - Robert Shiels said:
> Subject: RE: Dream weaver
> 
> Just got sent this:
> 
> DREAMWEAVER 3.0- Training Dates Now Available!
> ==
> With Dreamweaver being adopted by up to 90% of development companies
> worldwide, Focus Group are now providing cost effective, scheduled and
> company specific Dreamweaver training, offering Developers the
> opportunity to gain extensive skills in  just 2 days.  

up to 90%?

struan

Re: Dream weaver

[Robert Shiels]

Subject: RE: Dream weaver

Just got sent this:

DREAMWEAVER 3.0- Training Dates Now Available!
==
With Dreamweaver being adopted by up to 90% of development companies
worldwide, Focus Group are now providing cost effective, scheduled and
company specific Dreamweaver training, offering Developers the
opportunity to gain extensive skills in  just 2 days.  


/Robert

dj gets a mention

[Greg McCarroll]

http://www.byte.com/column/BYT20010111S0004

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

RE: Dream weaver

[Mark Kitching]

Title: RE: Dream weaver





>> 
>>> >>I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
>>> >>Dreamweaver side of this argument...
>>> >>
>>> >>Anyone?
>>> >>
>>> >>Michael
>>> 
>>> I'd love to but the last time I spoke about Dreamweaver with Dave
>>> Cross around it turned into a LOOONG lunchtime.
>>
>>How about if I promise to shut up?
>>
>>Dave...
>>[who will just snigger quietly in the corner]
>>
>>p.s. Mark, have you seen the new article on perl.com yet? Ring any 
>>bells?
>>


TT2? Never used it and don't know anyone who has :-)


Further to Dreamweaver, I'd almost like to go against what I've said to
others and say that actually templates in Dreamwaver are a complete pain
as they restrict things which you haven't set as template regions such as
table width and can be tricky for experienced used nevermind, er, gumbies
(apologies to any gumbies reading).


Where Dreamweaver succeeds is the ability to create HTML objects such as
a menubar which you then drop into each page you wish to use the menubar on.


I really haven't convinced anyone have I? :-)


Mark.

Re: Dream weaver

[Leon Brocard]

Matthews Simon sent the following bits through the ether:

> Our solution to this has been to write some perl
> code to convert Word documents (marketers tool of choice) into
> Template::Toolkit templates that we use internally.

IIRC, you had patched wvware to output XML. Has this patch made it
into the main wvware distribution, and if not why not? ;-) Have you
found wvware stable enough to do this properly everytime, or do you
force your users to use standard templates?

Leon

ps would make a good talk for tpc ;-)
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... Join the Group Mind - become a Borg

RE: Dream weaver

[Dave Cross]

At Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:43:47 -, Mark Kitching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> >>I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
> >>Dreamweaver side of this argument...
> >>
> >>Anyone?
> >>
> >>Michael
> 
> I'd love to but the last time I spoke about Dreamweaver with Dave
> Cross around it turned into a LOOONG lunchtime.

How about if I promise to shut up?

Dave...
[who will just snigger quietly in the corner]

p.s. Mark, have you seen the new article on perl.com yet? Ring any 
bells?

Re: Dream weaver

[Michael Stevens]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:43:47PM -, Mark Kitching wrote:
> >>I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
> >>Dreamweaver side of this argument...
> >>Anyone?
> >>Michael
> I'd love to but the last time I spoke about Dreamweaver with Dave Cross
> around
> it turned into a LOOONG lunchtime.

I'm not seeing the flaw yet...

Michael

RE: Dream weaver

[Mark Kitching]

Title: RE: Dream weaver





>>I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
>>Dreamweaver side of this argument...
>>
>>Anyone?
>>
>>Michael


I'd love to but the last time I spoke about Dreamweaver with Dave Cross around
it turned into a LOOONG lunchtime.


Mark.

Re: Dream weaver

[Dave Cross]

At Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:37:24 +, Michael Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
> Dreamweaver side of this argument...
> 
> Anyone?

Wouldn't it go along the lines of:

"ooh! pretty!"

Dave...

Re: Dream weaver

[Michael Stevens]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:32:46PM -, Matthews Simon wrote:
> As someone who's been using templates and perl to do web sites since January
> 96 I can see both sides of the argument.  We (perl people) are all much
> happier with the idea of building pages from bits it appeals to our
> laziness.  There are however end users to consider.  Much as I have tried I
> cannot get the marketing droids to use vim and templates.  They seem to have
> a real problem with this.  Our solution to this has been to write some perl
> code to convert Word documents (marketers tool of choice) into
> Template::Toolkit templates that we use internally.  This makes us all happy
> :-)

I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
Dreamweaver side of this argument...

Anyone?

Michael

RE: Dream weaver

[Matthews Simon]

As someone who's been using templates and perl to do web sites since January
96 I can see both sides of the argument.  We (perl people) are all much
happier with the idea of building pages from bits it appeals to our
laziness.  There are however end users to consider.  Much as I have tried I
cannot get the marketing droids to use vim and templates.  They seem to have
a real problem with this.  Our solution to this has been to write some perl
code to convert Word documents (marketers tool of choice) into
Template::Toolkit templates that we use internally.  This makes us all happy
:-)

SAM

Re: word processors

[Jonathan Stowe]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Robin Szemeti wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, you wrote:
> 
> > > Much as I love Computer Modern for technical work, using it for fiction
> > > would just be WRONG WRONG WRONG.
> 
> If you are interested, I have some technical documents that could also be
> called fiction ..  is it alright to use computer modern then??
> 

I certainly have some technical specifications that are largely fictional
- though the would probably be better rendered in something like Comic
Sans MS.


/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |

Re: word processors

[Robin Szemeti]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, you wrote:

> > Much as I love Computer Modern for technical work, using it for fiction
> > would just be WRONG WRONG WRONG.

If you are interested, I have some technical documents that could also be
called fiction ..  is it alright to use computer modern then??

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

[Robin Houston]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:08:10AM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> BTW does any know why Sun refer to cpu0 and cpu2 and not 0 and 1?  Is
> it a marketing thing so the number 2 appears as an obvious second
> processor or is there a real reason?

Well, if you have four processors they're numbered 0,1,2,3 I think;
so perhaps there is a technical reason...

(Sadly I no longer have shell access to any four-processor Sun
machines to confirm this.)

 .robin.

-- 
Flee to me, remote elf!

Re: perl code from cron

[Jonathan Stowe]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Stupid question, but a code snppet got posted to NY-PM last night, and I
> wanted to play with it. The problem I have is not understanding how to add
> this function (rcsw) to get it to run from cron, or indeed, to run. I've put
> the code in my ~/.bashrc file, am I on the right track ?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the recursive version, which has more perl.  Run
> this out of cron once a week to remind you if you left any
> files locked somewhere in your development tree:
> 
> rcsw()
> {
>   perl -MFile::Find -e '
>  find(sub { push(@f, $File::Find::name) if /,v$/; }, @ARGV);
>  $/ = ";";
>  foreach $file (@f) {
>if (open(F, $file)) {
>  while () {
>if (/locks\s+(\S+);/ && $1) { print "$file\t$1\n"; last; }
>  }
>  close(F);
>} else {
>  warn "Could not read $file";
>}
>  }
>' $*
> }
> 

Nice.

Put the function in the top of a shell script and the call it with just
rcsw at some point after that (possibly after setting an appropriate
environment ) run the shell script from cron.

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |   
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one 
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |

Re: Dumb-assed question

[Struan Donald]

* at 25/01 11:26 + James Powell said:
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:05:49AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
> > * at 25/01 10:37 + Michael Stevens said:
> > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:02:25PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > >   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask) nicely escapes the spaces to %20 but when
> > > >   I try and download these, the %20 appears in the Netscape file save as 
>box
> > > >   instead of spaces.
> > > 
> > > Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.
> > 
> > the number of times i've sent stuff to people that works fine, had
> > them run it through dreamweaver and then complain that it's broken
> > makes me wonder what the bad gui tools are like. 
> > 
> > struan
> 
> Waiter, a copy of Frontpage 2000 for the gentleman!

thank you, no.

struan

Re: Dumb-assed question

[James Powell]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:05:49AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
> * at 25/01 10:37 + Michael Stevens said:
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:02:25PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask) nicely escapes the spaces to %20 but when
> > >   I try and download these, the %20 appears in the Netscape file save as box
> > >   instead of spaces.
> > 
> > Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.
> 
> the number of times i've sent stuff to people that works fine, had
> them run it through dreamweaver and then complain that it's broken
> makes me wonder what the bad gui tools are like. 
> 
> struan

Waiter, a copy of Frontpage 2000 for the gentleman!


jp

Re: Dream weaver

[Michael Stevens]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:09:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Pretty much !
> 
> Having started the web site project here without much knowledge of developing
> websites (having mostly been doing corporate network support before that) I
> allowed the designer to choose the tools. I chose apache/mod_perl for the
> backend because I wanted to learn more about perl & apache. Perhaps not the best
> rationale but hey, it's my project :-)
> 
> We now have a site with lots of html files full of dreamweaver tags which are
> very easy to mess up with a text editor so we tend to stick to DW and keep the
> hand editing to a minimum.
> 
> Having learned LOTS in the last year, we are planning to rebuild the site to
> separate the templates from the content because content management is becoming a
> pain. Naturally we will be doing this with perl.
> 
> So - Dreamweaver is a good gui editor but it generates files which are difficult
> to maintain. It is good for those who are not technically minded but probably
> not the best choice if you have technical skills available.
> We will ditch DW in the new version of the site.

I think there's a lot of potential for manipulating dreamweaver's markup
and file structures from perl. I've been able to write CGI scripts
that do stuff like. 

print STDOUT get_library_component('componentname');

and fetch and include stuff from dreamweaver at the appropriate place.

I think there's a lot of potential in this sort of approach but I've not
heard of anyone exploiting it.

Michael

> __
> 
> 
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use Std::Disclaimer::Moan;

my $moan = new Std::Disclaimer::Moan;

$moan->mail('[EMAIL PROTECTED]');

Re: Dream weaver

[Simon_Wilcox]

Roger Horne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>On Wed 24 Jan, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask)
>
>But I must ! You are only the second person I have heard of who has used
>it...
>

[snip]

>Am I right in thinking that what CS said made as much sense as "We don't
>need a case of claret because we have a pound of brussels sprouts"?
>

Pretty much !

Having started the web site project here without much knowledge of developing
websites (having mostly been doing corporate network support before that) I
allowed the designer to choose the tools. I chose apache/mod_perl for the
backend because I wanted to learn more about perl & apache. Perhaps not the best
rationale but hey, it's my project :-)

We now have a site with lots of html files full of dreamweaver tags which are
very easy to mess up with a text editor so we tend to stick to DW and keep the
hand editing to a minimum.

Having learned LOTS in the last year, we are planning to rebuild the site to
separate the templates from the content because content management is becoming a
pain. Naturally we will be doing this with perl.

So - Dreamweaver is a good gui editor but it generates files which are difficult
to maintain. It is good for those who are not technically minded but probably
not the best choice if you have technical skills available.

We will ditch DW in the new version of the site.

Simon.





__


   This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed
   and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent
   written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, our company disclaim all
   responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the
   consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such
   information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written
   confirmation.

   If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us
   immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from
   your computer.

   Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification,
   distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly
   prohibited.

Re: Dumb-assed question

[Michael Stevens]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:05:49AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
> the number of times i've sent stuff to people that works fine, had
> them run it through dreamweaver and then complain that it's broken
> makes me wonder what the bad gui tools are like. 

Much much worse. Trust me on this.

Michael

Re: Dumb-assed question

[Struan Donald]

* at 25/01 10:37 + Michael Stevens said:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:02:25PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask) nicely escapes the spaces to %20 but when
> >   I try and download these, the %20 appears in the Netscape file save as box
> >   instead of spaces.
> 
> Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.

the number of times i've sent stuff to people that works fine, had
them run it through dreamweaver and then complain that it's broken
makes me wonder what the bad gui tools are like. 

struan

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

[Philip Newton]

Steve Mynott wrote:
> Anil Madhavapeddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Perl is still mashed up, out of the box :-(  We had to do 
> > some patching to get CPAN to work, and don't even think of
> > installing a fresh copy, or half the admintools (linked
> > against their special copy), fail miserably.
> 
> I don't think Sun's Perl is actually broken [1] other than 
> being old but the CPAN stuff is setup to use Sun's Workshop CC
> rather than GCC and you have to hack
> /usr/perl5/5.00503/sun4-solaris/Config.pm if you want to use CPAN.
> 
> [1] Although it's a pity they haven't put any POD docs in the
> Sun::Solaris stuff

If there's a problem with Sun's Perl, you might consider posting it on
perl5-porters -- Alan Burlison (who was also at yapc::Europe) reads there
and I believe he's involved in the Solaris/Perl development thingy. Or try
sending him mail (I *think* it's [EMAIL PROTECTED]; check p5p
archives if you want to be sure).

Cheers,
Philip

Re: Dumb-assed question

[Dave Cross]

At Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:37:07 +, Michael Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.

Maybe, but calling something the 'best' in that product category is
probably damning with faint praise.

Dave...

Re: Dumb-assed question

[Michael Stevens]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:02:25PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask) nicely escapes the spaces to %20 but when
>   I try and download these, the %20 appears in the Netscape file save as box
>   instead of spaces.

Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.

Michael

Re: Dream weaver

[Roger Horne]

On Wed 24 Jan, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
>   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask)

But I must ! You are only the second person I have heard of who has used
it...

In November I was asked by a Judge to convert a court guide written in Word
into HTML. Only real problem was the index which was good, but indexed
pages, not paragraphs. I solved this with a bit of creative editing of the
Word file, a script, and MakeIndex. A colleague and I then checked each page
on every available OS and browser and it was then sent off by the Judge to
Court Service to be put on their site, assuming it would appear there within
a couple of days.

It turned out that Court Service requires that every page on its site should
be topped and tailed with a template which ensures that the page is in the
default colours of white text on a sludge blue background. Hardly difficult
to achieve, although hideous[1]. Even without using TT, and as an amateur, it
took me less than half an hour to extract the templates from another file on
the site and to write a script that topped and tailed all 37 files in about
20 seconds. (OK, my version probably needed a bit of tidying up by hand.)

But when I asked those in charge of the Court Service site why they could
not do the same I was told "We don't have Perl and we don't need it, we use
Dreamweaver. It will take us 5 days to do the work". 

The files appeared on the CS site 6 weeks later.

Am I right in thinking that what CS said made as much sense as "We don't
need a case of claret because we have a pound of brussels sprouts"?

rh
[1] http://www.courtservice.gov.uk
-- 
Roger Horne
11 New Square, Lincoln's Inn, London WC2A 3QB
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.hrothgar.co.uk/

Technical Meeting Venues

[Dave Cross]

I'm still looking for suggestions for venues for the next two technical
meetings (Feb 22 & 26). 

How do people feel about going back to State51? Does someone want to 
contact the ICA?

Any other suggestions?

Dave...

Reminder

[Dave Cross]

Today is the last day to submit paper proposals to TPC5. Tutorials
and presentations have another week.

Dave...

perl code from cron

[Robert Shiels]

Hi,

Stupid question, but a code snppet got posted to NY-PM last night, and I
wanted to play with it. The problem I have is not understanding how to add
this function (rcsw) to get it to run from cron, or indeed, to run. I've put
the code in my ~/.bashrc file, am I on the right track ?



Here's the recursive version, which has more perl.  Run
this out of cron once a week to remind you if you left any
files locked somewhere in your development tree:

rcsw()
{
  perl -MFile::Find -e '
 find(sub { push(@f, $File::Find::name) if /,v$/; }, @ARGV);
 $/ = ";";
 foreach $file (@f) {
   if (open(F, $file)) {
 while () {
   if (/locks\s+(\S+);/ && $1) { print "$file\t$1\n"; last; }
 }
 close(F);
   } else {
 warn "Could not read $file";
   }
 }
   ' $*
}

--
Thanks
/Robert

Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

[Steve Mynott]

(cc added to london.pm)

Anil Madhavapeddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Quoting Steve Mynott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > Sun do seem to have mended their ways a little.  They even ship apache
> > and bash as binary packages on extra CD with Solaris 8 and, most
> > importantly, gcc!
> 
> Perl is still mashed up, out of the box :-(  We had to do some patching
> to get CPAN to work, and don't even think of installing a fresh copy, or
> half the admintools (linked against their special copy), fail miserably.
> 
> Or have Sun solved this buggette?

I just installed my own totally separate version of Perl 5.6 in
/usr/local, used that and have had no problems to date, although its
best to explicitly state '/usr/local/bin/perl' to prevent confusion
and have that first in your PATH.

I don't think Sun's Perl is actually broken [1] other than being old but
the CPAN stuff is setup to use Sun's Workshop CC rather than GCC and
you have to hack /usr/perl5/5.00503/sun4-solaris/Config.pm if you want
to use CPAN.

There was a similar problem with some of the compiler options in a
system file for either imake or xmkmf which you have to fix to get
xsnow to run (this was last month when I was feeling all seasonal).

Sun recommend leaving their version of perl installed because it is
used by kstat(1) and I suspect installs are likely to start using it.

BTW does any know why Sun refer to cpu0 and cpu2 and not 0 and 1?  Is
it a marketing thing so the number 2 appears as an obvious second
processor or is there a real reason?

[1] Although it's a pity they haven't put any POD docs in the
Sun::Solaris stuff

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence.  -- h. l. mencken

Re: JOB: desperately seeking symbian

[Steve Mynott]

Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> you dont want this job, you'd have to sit near me ;-)

The upside of this is that you are likely to get the occasional
chocolate bar thrown in your direction!

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

for every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat,
and wrong.  -- h. l. mencken

Re: odd -w effect

[Greg McCarroll]

* Benjamin Holzman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 07:15:26PM -0500, Benjamin Holzman wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:07:38PM -0600, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> > > Linux UI question (on Debian/KDE laptop right now): If I copy
>^^^
> > $ sudo apt-get install wmnetselect
> > $ wmnetselect &
> ^^
> 
> Oops, sorry.  I forgot that not everybody uses WindowMaker.  I doubt wmnetselect
> will work very well under KDE, although I suppose it's worth a try.
> 

your solution works for KDE as well if you just add an extra step

1  install windowmaker and set it as your default wm 
2  > >  $ sudo apt-get install wmnetselect
3  > >  $ wmnetselect &

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net