Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:51:26PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
map g !G perl -MText::Autoformat -eautoformat CR
map z !G perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat{ all = 1 }' CR
...shamelessly stolen, lock stock and barrel from Damian's article in
the new TPJ. :-)
Cool, thanks. Actually I think I saw that at TPC too.
Minor problemette is, when 1.0.4 is called at the end of the file:
Can't call method signature on an undefined value at
/usr/local/share/perl/5.6.0/Text/Autoformat.pm line 779.
Paul, having thoughts about using nvi with its embedded perl interpreter
to speed that up a bit...
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
Damian is so cool... The next version of Text::Autoformat (which should be out before TPC5) will also leave header lines and sigs unmolested, making it truly useful for email tidying. Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like DWIM.pm... ;-) Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head... ;-) Damian
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
Minor problemette is, when 1.0.4 is called at the end of the file: Can't call method signature on an undefined value at /usr/local/share/perl/5.6.0/Text/Autoformat.pm line 779. Noted and fixed for the next release. Damian
Re: Election Manifestos
Typical quotes from Simon this week: Oh, and fix your bloody line length. Roger, where we come from we have a word for people like that. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :) If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it. ...bad language and shouting isn't big, and it isn't clever. /Robert - Original Message - From: Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 May 2001 22:00 Subject: Re: Election Manifestos On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:50:47PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote: @Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed a lot since). This is 100% within their rights. They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it, Yes, but they didn't have to. So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking code. Which do I do? ;-) If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it.
Re: Election Manifestos
Chris Ball wrote: I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give Code To The World sometimes? The later versions don't bear any resemblance at all (well superficially anyway - it's a completly new DHTML interface they have although the modules they use are exactly the same as the ones used in Acmemail v.1) but the early versions were identical. Even down to Leon's dodgy, non transparent GIFs for icons. Have no problem with them making money out of it it was just that it was ripped off and not released under the GPL and/or the changes sent back to us.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Richard Clamp wrote: On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:13:12AM +0100, Robert Shiels wrote: Typical quotes from Simon this week: Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings. You see, this is why we don't need to make a london-perl-mongers movie. If we did, it's just turn out like SPACED. Later. Mark.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote: Have no problem with them making money out of it it was just that it was ripped off and not released under the GPL and/or the changes sent back to us. They don't have to under the artistic licence. However, they do have to duplicate all of the original copyright notices and associated disclaimers. which they did not do; Credit where credit is due. Anyway, in the end IIRC the response was 'fuck it' let's have another beer and think up some more madcap schemes. Which brings us back around nicely to NMS and how we're going to licence that stuff. I think Leon will agree with me here that we should just simply go for the 'do what the hell you want' licence. If someone else 'steals' our code and makes a commercial library out of it, then so be it. quote person=me Oh sod this discussion for a lark, I'm off to write some free software... /quote Later. Mark. -- This is my signature. There are many like it, but this is mine. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and am speaking on my behalf and my behalf alone. I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
Paul Makepeace sent the following bits through the ether: Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever) .muttrc: set editor=/home/acme/bin/autoformat %s; xemacs -nw %s Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... Hey! Who took the cork off my lunch?
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Leon Brocard wrote:
Paul Makepeace sent the following bits through the ether:
Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
.muttrc: set editor=/home/acme/bin/autoformat %s; xemacs -nw %s
Leon
in PINE
S SETUP - C Config
display-filters: ~mark/bin/autoformat
where autoformat is simply
perl
#!/usr/bin/perl
use strict;
use Text::Autoformat;
$_ = ;
# don't process the headers
if (/^Subject/)
{
print;
print while ();
exit;
}
# slurp in text and process
my $foo = $_;
$foo .= $_ while ();
$_ = autoformat($foo, {all = 1});
# begon disclaimers
s/The information contained in this communication.*//si;
print;
/perl
Later
Mark
--
My other mail program has a .muttrc
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:21:08AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote: Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head... Evil Ideas BOF at TPC. ISAGN. -- God Save the Queen! And let Satan take the Prime Minister... - Tanuki, in the monastery.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:59:12AM +0100, Richard Clamp wrote: Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings. You mean I'm nice at times? -- Ever wake up feeling like a null pointer? -Allan Pratt
Re: Election Manifestos
Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:59:12AM +0100, Richard Clamp wrote: Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings. You mean I'm nice at times? Aren't you standing for London.pm in the election? -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
Damian Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Damian is so cool... The next version of Text::Autoformat (which should be out before TPC5) will also leave header lines and sigs unmolested, making it truly useful for email tidying. Huzzah! -- Piers Cawley www.iterative-software.com
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:21:08AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote: Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like DWIM.pm... ;-) Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head... The David made me do it!?? :-) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Take myself, subtract films, and the remainder is zero - Akira Kurosawa
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:21:08AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote: Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like DWIM.pm... ;-) Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head... The David made me do it!?? just wrap more tin foil around your head and everything will be ok -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Election Manifestos
At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote: On or about Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:23:32PM +0100, Cross David - dcross typed: I've not actually seen the manifesto, but from what I'm told it really means If you can't be bothered to take a few minutes to look, why the hell are you posting about it? The actual text is: A future Conservative Government will repeal IR35 and replace it with legislation that addresses genuine abuses. Because, although I hadn't read the manifesto, I _had_ read the news stories when this piece of policy was announced about two months ago. In other words, it'll be in the pockets of whichever lobby group pays them most at the time, just as the Labour one was. Exactly. What I object to is the contractors I hear saying that just because the Tories have said they'll abolish IR35 then they _must_ vote for them. Conveniently ignoring a few facts: 1/ The second half of the sentence states that it will be replaced by something else. And we really have no idea what it might be. 2/ Most intelligent people make up their minds who to vote for on the basis of more than one issue. 3/ Some contractors don't actually agree that IR35 is such a bad thing. [snip oversized corporate disclaimer] And get a shell account, why don't you? Thanks. I already have several. And I can't get to any of them from within Acxiom without spending inordinate amounts of time doing things that I'm not being paid for. I will, however, spend some time this weekend trying to fix my webmail that my ISP broke somehow a couple of months ago. Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their favourite Unix mail client all the time, I understand that is never going to happen. We are just going to accept that some people will always be forced to post using whatever email fuckwittage their company lands them with. Yes, there _are_ always round it, but some people don't have the time or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it doesn't necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid. I intended this group (and, by extension, this mailing list) to be inclusive. We should be encouraging people to use Perl, not scaring them off because they use the wrong email client. Dave... [bugger! another grumpy start to the day] -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perl Training in the UK http://www.iterative-software.com/training/
Re: Election Manifestos
Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether: This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it does :) You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a couple of guys in the acmemail community who are slowly plodding along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss. Leon -- ... My other computer is a 500-node Beowulf cluster
RE: Election Manifestos
From: Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether: This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it does :) You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a couple of guys in the acmemail community who are slowly plodding along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss. OK. But you'd still be able to install it far easier than anyone else in the group :) Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote: It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss. Yet Another Webmail Client; it wasn't exactly filling a gaping niche. (And I say that as someone who may soon be maintaining one of the others...) -- 4.2BSD may not be a complete disaster, but it does a good job of emulating one.
Re: Election Manifestos
Simon Cozens wrote: On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote: It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss. Yet Another Webmail Client; it wasn't exactly filling a gaping niche. (And I say that as someone who may soon be maintaining one of the others...) It did at the time - IIRC there weren't any (good) GPL-ed Webmail clients when Leon started Acmemail and when I (well, Mark and I) were working on it to get it integrated for a free ISP I hunted around and there wasn't anything nearly as good (IMO) except Malcom Beattie's Wing (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mbeattie/wing/) which I looked at but didn't like the structure. It's a pity Acmemail never really took off (apart from being ripped off and turned into a succesful company by At-mail) because it had loads of great fetaures, was easy to extend and customise (especially the latest development branch) and could easily (a month of good hacking) have had feature sets to rival or beat anything I've seen including Hotmail and Yahoomail. On the other hand I learnt a lot about writing good, abstracted, large scale CGI applications and maintainable, reusable code. I learnt about doing mail and MIME properly under Perl, about working as a team on code, Open Source software development models, that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to install, supporting users (God some of them are stupid) and writing documentation and installation guides. Which was nice.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to install, And use. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :) There's also http://www.horde.org/imp/ which is reasonably popular. -- Jesus ate my mouse or some similar banality. -- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-06
Re: Election Manifestos
Simon Cozens wrote: On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to install, And use. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :) There's also http://www.horde.org/imp/ which is reasonably popular. But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules when one will do. Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations) plus it doesn't have the community support that Perl does or CPAN and it was difficult to extract presentation from logic.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:17:14AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules when one will do. Because it doesn't exist? :) OTOH, Mail::Cclient does do NNTP as well, which would be a boost, because WING is meant to be the Web IMAP and NNTP Gateway. Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations) plus it doesn't have the community support that Perl does or CPAN and it was difficult to extract presentation from logic. If I were to deploy Imp, I wouldn't care how much community support PHP had, I'd care how much community support Imp had. -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
Re: Election Manifestos
On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Cozens wrote: On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:17:14AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules when one will do. Because it doesn't exist? :) OTOH, Mail::Cclient does do NNTP as well, which would be a boost, because WING is meant to be the Web IMAP and NNTP Gateway. Mail::Cclient was (not sure if it is still) a bitch to install. Requires c headers from IMAP libraries. How likely is it that you have these (still) lying around on your client machine[1]? Most people opt for something that they can get to install easily[2] rather than something more powerful. If I can't just write a bundle for cpan then it's probably not worth the bother... Oh, let's just add it to the list of things to do once we've done NMS, the new website for london.pm.org and conferences are out of the way... Later. Mark. [1] Rhetorical question, not flame bait. [2] in under 2 hours -- My other mail has a signature
Re: Election Manifestos
On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote: Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations) Could you elaborate on that a little? It's not too much of a danger, but I may have to persuade people that PHP isn't the right solution for a large-scale application. I know quite a few of the arguments, but it'd be nice to have some real-world examples... Tony
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:06:13PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote: But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons. They just innovated threading! Tell me you're joking. If I was joking I wouldn't have ignore Thread- in my .muttrc :-( Thread-Topic: Subject line goes here. Thread-Index: AcDZqhhI7VsxDWt9TIyjVP5af1xC5wAANWVg I've just spent five minutes trying to respond to this without actually screaming. Sorry, but I can't. Martin
Re: Election Manifestos
At 07:49 23/05/01 +0100, you wrote: At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote: And get a shell account, why don't you? Thanks. I already have several. [snip] Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their favourite Unix mail client all the time, Oxymoron, surely? have the time or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it doesn't necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid. Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an overwhelming urge to be backward compatible with 1972, and can therefore do cool futuristic stuff like handle more than 72 columns. :- Dave... [bugger! another grumpy start to the day] I blame the hot weather. It's unnatural. Jon 'Troll? Where?' Peterson -- Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election Manifestos
Simon Wistow wrote: the DBI abstraction was, well, nonexistent. As in, if your script has lots of calls to mysql_this and mysql_that, it doesn't look very database independent. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:39PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote: However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is I generally avoid this issue by not working so much that it needs wrapping. -- Niklas Nordebo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +447966251290 The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:39PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote: On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:32:09PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote: Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their favourite Unix mail client all the time, Oxymoron, surely? Not in the slightest. Now if you'd said favourite gui mail client, you might be correct. No, I think that's still not a contradiction. good gui mail client probably is, however. Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an overwhelming urge to be backward compatible with 1972, and can therefore do cool futuristic stuff like handle more than 72 columns. However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is completely beyond it, despite the fact it's been implemented correctly countless times before over the past 30 years or so. You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat. I just used it to reformat the bit above beginning with Indeed. Lovely thing. dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ philosophy department - you don't have to be to work here, but it helps
RE: Election Manifestos
On Wed, 23 May 2001, Cross David - dcross wrote: From: Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether: This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it does :) You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a couple of guys in the acmemail community who are slowly plodding along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss. OK. But you'd still be able to install it far easier than anyone else in the group :) Sqwebmail is nice .. works well with the Qmail/Vopmail/Courier-IMAP suite .. been running it on a couple of sites for a couple of years and not had much trouble (apart from thick users) ... -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Election Manifestos
Chris Ball sent the following bits through the ether: I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give Code To The World sometimes? OK: I released acmemail under GPLAL because I wanted it to be used by the most amount of people and I wasn't intending to make money off it. @Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed a lot since). If I remember correctly, they got around any license issues by selling the webmail servers to companies as a service, and not a product. They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it, asked about selling it / giving me a token present. They could have given patches back to acmemail and not forked the code too much. I wasn't happy at all with them at the time. They sent me nasty letters about my accusations. It was blatently my code. Overall, kudos to them, they appear to be able to sell a simple Perl script for a pop to large corporations. So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking code. Which do I do? ;-) Hmmm, let's rewrite the Cathedral and the Bazaar, but as a failure for open source in this case ;-) Leon -- ... Squeeze
Re: Election Manifestos
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:50:47PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote: @Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed a lot since). This is 100% within their rights. They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it, Yes, but they didn't have to. So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking code. Which do I do? ;-) If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it. -- It's 106 miles from Birmingham, we've got an eighth of a tank of gas, half a pack of Dorritos, it's dusk, and we're wearing contacts. - Malcolm Ray
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:23:49PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote: You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat. I just used it to reformat the bit above beginning with Indeed. Lovely thing. Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever) so that it gets cleaned on the way in, or does your mail client do it, or have you some on-demand vi/emacs macros? Do tell! Paul
Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:41:33PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:23:49PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat. I just used it to reformat
the bit above beginning with Indeed. Lovely thing.
Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
so that it gets cleaned on the way in, or does your mail client do it,
or have you some on-demand vi/emacs macros? Do tell!
from my .vimrc:
map g !G perl -MText::Autoformat -eautoformat CR
map z !G perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat{ all = 1 }' CR
...shamelessly stolen, lock stock and barrel from Damian's article in
the new TPJ. :-)
The first does the current paragraph, the second does all paragraphs
down to the end of the document.
Damian is so cool... Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like
DWIM.pm... ;-)
dha
--
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out
of Meat. - Phillip, Goats, 20sep99
Re: Election Manifestos
On or about Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:02:33PM +0100, Simon Wistow typed: According to the Register ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/19112.html the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years (bad luck bK). Being that most of the people here seem to be more Left than right (especially the contarctors) how do you lot feel about this. How about don't believe a word of it, anything said between now and the election is purely an attempt to woo gullible representatives of special-interest groups? Labour don't care about actual competent net users (who will probably vote for them anyway, they reckon, and by last week's experience they may be right) but want to look as if they regard crime as a bad thing (still fighting the 1980s council stories, really); the Conservatives reckon that people who want politicians to do something about crime will vote for them anyway, but that competent net users might be wooed. Roger
Re: Election Manifestos
on 22/5/01 4:02 pm, Simon Wistow wrote: the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years (bad luck bK). It seems that every promise in the Tory manifesto is based on hearsay and rumour about things that people don't like at the moment. From air-conditioned tubes, thru to RIPA, to cheap petrol, it's bandwagon-jumping. Even if you agree with some, it's unlikely you'll agree with a majority. I have yet to see a Conservative talk eloquently and knowledgably about the subjects they're making promises on. Which is fucking scary. You sort of have to admire their bravado though, in some ghoulish way. c. -- every day, computers are making people easier to use http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:16:16PM +0100, Chris Heathcote wrote:
From air-conditioned tubes, thru to RIPA, to cheap petrol, it's
bandwagon-jumping.
Ah, congratulations! You seem to have been completely politically
brainwashed; it's become so de rigeur for parties to completely
disregard the will of the people that when one actually even *claims* to
be concerned about matters that people will get up and shout about,
they're immediately decried.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it: Labour is interested in
what concerns the people; the LibDems are true democrats; the Tories are
jumping on bandwagons.
Not that I'm accusing anyone of hypocracy, of course.
Perhaps bandwagon-jumping is in fact the essence of democracy.
I have yet to see a Conservative talk eloquently and knowledgably about the
subjects they're making promises on.
I've yet to hear a Labour MP talk eloquently about anything at all. Anyone
ever talked - sorry, tried talking - to their MP about RIP?
Which is fucking scary.
This is even scarier, since, under Rule One, they're probably going to get
elected again.
--
\let\l\let\l\d\def\l\a\active\l~\catcode~`?\a~`;\a\d;{~`};!\a\d!{?;~}\l?\the;#
!;]!\l]\l;\.!;,!;\%!;=!]=\d],\expandafter;[!][{=%{\message[};\$!=${\uccode`'.
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Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote: According to the Register ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/19112.html the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years (bad luck bK). hmmm .. I was tempted just to let it pass .. but I can't resist ;) What you need to remember is this : They will say ANYTHING to get your vote .. ANYTHING. Remember the U turn Labour did over key escrow as soon as they won the election? ... do you really believe that the Conservatives are any different? .. They are all lying gits who would happily tell you black was white if they thought it would make you vote for em. thank goodness for proportioanl representation, it should make the next parliament a lot more representative of what people actually want, ratehr than a choice between 2 (and a half ) evils. Being that most of the people here seem to be more Left than right (especially the contarctors) how do you lot feel about this. the immediate feeling I get is to rent some cellars at the houses of parliament and invest in a number of big barrels of gunpowder .. oh hang on that ones been done before and had a distinctly negative outcome .. OK .. perhaps someting more subtle then ;) -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Election Manifestos
At 16:02 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote: the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years (bad luck bK). They are politicians. They lie. Although the move to prevent people pretending to be teenagers I find particularly amusing (for dark values of amusing). Let's face it, no-one is very interested in civil rights these days, and especially not on the Internet. This is not an invitation for a flame war, it all got said, done and ^ Pull the other one! :-) Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election Manifestos
on 22/5/01 4:19 pm, Robin Szemeti wrote: thank goodness for proportioanl representation, it should make the next parliament a lot more representative of what people actually want, ratehr than a choice between 2 (and a half ) evils. Errr... no PR yet for general elections! Slight aside, but the Electoral Reform Society urgently needs new members... see http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ for details of how to join. c. -- every day, computers are making people easier to use http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com
Re: Election Manifestos
Simon Cozens wrote: I've yet to hear a Labour MP talk eloquently about anything at all. Anyone ever talked - sorry, tried talking - to their MP about RIP? Harriet Harman tried to tell me that I didn't really know about computers or the Internet. Personally I don't believe a word anybody says about anything let alone politicians, I just thought it was a good talking point and interesting that the Conservatives seem to be actively persuing the techno-savvy.
Re: Election Manifestos
Chris Heathcote sent the following bits through the ether: It seems that every promise in the Tory manifesto is based on hearsay It'd be okay if they were based on shaggy or fat boy slim... Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... It sucks. But why does it suck?
Re: Election Manifestos
At 16:31 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote: On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:16:16PM +0100, Chris Heathcote wrote: From air-conditioned tubes, thru to RIPA, to cheap petrol, it's bandwagon-jumping. Ah, congratulations! You seem to have been completely politically brainwashed; i The cynicism of the electorate will rise or fall to match the cynicism of the elected, nothing more. It is always best to judge politicians on what they do, not what they say. This is always a problem for the parties not in power, as they haven't had the chance to do anything. Thus, all they can really do come election time is to point out the things the party in power has done wrong. This then gets called 'negative campaigning'. However, it strikes me as simply being the way modern democracy works and we should just get on with it. We vote for the encumbent party until they screw up big time and then we switch and repeat the process. There's no point judging the parties on what they say they'll do, only on what they did last time they were in power. -- Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election Manifestos
On 22/05/2001 at 16:19 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: the immediate feeling I get is to rent some cellars at the houses of parliament and invest in a number of big barrels of gunpowder .. oh hang on that ones been done before and had a distinctly negative outcome .. OK .. perhaps someting more subtle then ;) For whom? Guy Fawkes and co came off badly, and the next 85 years were hardly a bundle of laughs (rising discontent, civil war, puritan dictatorship, baudy restoration, tension) but it ended in a Bill of Rights that led to what's arguably the first constituitonal monarchy in the modern world. Um, sorry, had a minor burst of 17th century history. Won't happen again. -- :: paul :: stay all day :: if you want to
Re: Election Manifestos
on 22/5/01 4:46 pm, Simon Wistow wrote: Simon Cozens wrote: I've yet to hear a Labour MP talk eloquently about anything at all. Anyone ever talked - sorry, tried talking - to their MP about RIP? Harriet Harman tried to tell me that I didn't really know about computers or the Internet. There's a current trend towards minority-interest voting websites (e.g. what does every MP think about gay rights, plus voting record, same for electoral reform, green issues etc. etc.). Is there a computer/privacy/Internet version? (or: is faxyourmp.com doing one? ;) ) c. -- every day, computers are making people easier to use http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:44:25PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote: We vote for the encumbent party until they screw up big time and then we switch and repeat the process. Except we don't while they can arrange for elections to be when everyone's forgotten about their big screwups. Also, in fact, most of the voters are too oblivious to or closed-minded about or basically too damned stupid to recognise their big screw-ups anyway. Besides, what do you call a big screw up? The Dome was a screw-up from start to finish, but it hasn't made a scrap of difference. FM was handled amazingly badly, but that hasn't made any difference either. Nor has the Hindujas, or Mandelson or Robinson. The NHS? Health of the nation not quite a big enough screw-up? Or the schools? Deciding who should govern us is far too important to be left to the plebs. There's no point judging the parties on what they say they'll do, only on what they did last time they were in power. Right, yes, which is why we - sorry, you plural, I was way out of the country at the time - elected Labour based on their fantastic performance last time which lead to the General Strike and the Winter of Discontent. Sorry, a nanosecond of thought would show that that is complete bullshit. -- In related wibbling, I can see an opening for the four lusers of the Apocalypse... I didn't change anything, My e-mail doesn't work, I can't print and Is the network broken?. - Paul Mc Auley
Re: Election Manifestos
At 17:01 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote: Right, yes, which is why we - sorry, you plural, I was way out of the country at the time - elected Labour based on their fantastic performance last time which lead to the General Strike and the Winter of Discontent. Sorry, a nanosecond of thought would show that that is complete bullshit. Not so. Labour were voted in on the basis of the Tories screw ups. Like I said, we vote against the party that has most recently screwed up. Labour hasn't screwed up yet. The economy is pretty OK, house prices haven't crashed, unemployment is OK. This is what people vote on. No-one really cares about the dome. No-one cares about asylum seekers unless they live in Dover. No-one cares about building 500,000 houses unless they are going to be built right next to them. No-one even cares that much about crime unless they've been a victim of it during the last government. No-one cares about the NHS unless they or a relative have a serious illness. Remember - Economy, property prices, unemployment. Get those right, avoid foreign wars (can be OK, but too risky), and you stay in power. Simple. It helps if you kiss babies and have charisma, but that's hardly a new thing. -- Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:16:41PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote: Labour were voted in on the basis of the Tories screw ups. Yes, so what you said about the party's previous record as, indeed, irrelevant. Labour hasn't screwed up yet. Thanks, that's going in my sigfile. Oh, and fix your bloody line length. -- Thus spake the master programmer: After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless. -- Geoffrey James, The Tao of Programming
RE: Election Manifestos
From: Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:03 PM According to the Register ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/19112.html the Tory's want to repeal IR35, I've not actually seen the manifesto, but from what I'm told it really means font size=bloody huge We're going to repeal IR35 /font font size=microscopic ...and replace it with something else that does the same thing /font Plus ca change... Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: Election Manifestos
On or about Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:23:32PM +0100, Cross David - dcross typed: I've not actually seen the manifesto, but from what I'm told it really means If you can't be bothered to take a few minutes to look, why the hell are you posting about it? The actual text is: A future Conservative Government will repeal IR35 and replace it with legislation that addresses genuine abuses. In other words, it'll be in the pockets of whichever lobby group pays them most at the time, just as the Labour one was. The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. And get a shell account, why don't you?
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:37:23PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote: If you can't be bothered to take a few minutes to look, why the hell are you posting about it? But I wanna type, I wanna type, I wanna type! Roger, where we come from we have a word for people like that. -- I did write and prove correct a 20-line program in January, but I made the mistake of testing it on our VAX and it had an error, which two weeks of searching didn't uncover, so there went one publication out the window. - David Gries, 1980
Re: Election Manifestos
on 22/5/01 5:26 pm, Robin Szemeti wrote: Errr... no PR yet for general elections! really .. are you sure ? .. I'm certain this lot said they were going to do something about that ... how odd. It was part of the buttering-up in case of a need for a Lib-Lab pact. It's certainly been pushed on the back burner. I feel more strongly about this than any particular party... c. -- every day, computers are making people easier to use http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com
Re: Election Manifestos
Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether: [SNIP!] Please fix your mailer to do proper In-Reply-To and References headers. It's really really annoying. Leon -- ... Money is the root of all wealth
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:25:36PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: Thanks, that's going in my sigfile. Your sigfile is a mighty repository of evil. Martin
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 06:49:01PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote: Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether: [SNIP!] Please fix your mailer to do proper In-Reply-To and References headers. It's really really annoying. I *loathe* Exchange. But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons. Paul
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 11:11:23AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote: I *loathe* Exchange. But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons. They just innovated threading! Tell me you're joking. Martin
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Paul Mison wrote: On 22/05/2001 at 16:19 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: the immediate feeling I get is to rent some cellars at the houses of parliament and invest in a number of big barrels of gunpowder .. oh hang on that ones been done before and had a distinctly negative outcome .. OK .. perhaps someting more subtle then ;) For whom? Guy Fawkes yup .. thats what was putting me off the plan. but it ended in a Bill of Rights that led to what's arguably the first constituitonal monarchy in the modern world. umm .. hang on .. wasn't that another pre-election promise I remember from the last time we had a government given to us? ... yeah .. I'm sure one lot was wittering on about having a proper bill of rights .. whose lot was that then? ... -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Robin Szemeti wrote: hmmm .. I was tempted just to let it pass .. but I can't resist ;) What you need to remember is this : They will say ANYTHING to get your vote .. ANYTHING. Even the truth? I'd very much doubt that. Alex Gough -- I don't believe that honesty leads to madness. I don't believe we need delusions to stay sane. I don't believe the truth is strewn with booby-traps, waiting to swallow up anyone who thinks too much. There is nowhere to fall -- not unless you stand there digging the hole.
Re: Election Manifestos
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 09:14:05PM +0100, Martin Ling wrote: On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 11:11:23AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote: I *loathe* Exchange. But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons. They just innovated threading! Tell me you're joking. If I was joking I wouldn't have ignore Thread- in my .muttrc :-( Received: from 157.54.9.100 by mail3.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall +NT); Thu, 10 May 2001 16:41:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.71]) by +inet-imc-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Thu, 10 May 2001 16:43:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: +[EMAIL PROTECTED] + X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Subject line goes here. Thread-Index: AcDZqhhI7VsxDWt9TIyjVP5af1xC5wAANWVg X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2001 23:43:41.0352 (UTC) +FILETIME=[0AFF6A80:01C0D9AB] Paul
