[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Dan Winheld]

On 6/29/2019 9:23 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:

Clarification- I wish to apologize for the negative cast I put on my 
archlute because of the soundboard disposition; (just seemed relevant to 
the discussion) the actual sound response is superb, and forcing my RH 
to play in the more correct location has only enhanced the total sound 
picture.


While a correction could be done to"technically improve" the shape of 
the soundboard, I have no wish to risk changing either the lute's 
response or my present way of playing it. Sometimes things just work out 
the way they are supposed to.


Dan


"I’ve seen a few lutes with a nasty bulge between the bridge and the 
rose. RT"


Bingo. Wish I could post a pic of my archlute. 3 mm. at the bridge 
side of the rose, right where my RH wants to be, ergonomically. The 
one "silver lining" to this deplorable soundboard distortion is that 
it forces me to play closer to the bridge; which is preferable both 
for the sound & more historically accurate. (That of course is why 
they were more "accurate" back then!)   -Dan


On 6/29/2019 6:10 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

Physics, I suppose!))
The pull of the strings deepens the scoop, rather then lifting the 
bridge.


The non-concave soundboard also carries a large risk of becoming 
convex, and I’ve seen a few lutes with a nasty bulge between the 
bridge and the rose.

RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

On Jun 29, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Matthew Daillie 
 wrote:


What is the reasoning behind that claim?

Best,

Matthew



Le 29 juin 2019 à 12:37, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :

The scoop keeps the action stable, and that’s its main function.
An axe without the scoop is a disaster to be avoided.
RT


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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Dan Winheld]

"I’ve seen a few lutes with a nasty bulge between the bridge and the rose. RT"

Bingo. Wish I could post a pic of my archlute. 3 mm. at the bridge side 
of the rose, right where my RH wants to be, ergonomically. The one 
"silver lining" to this deplorable soundboard distortion is that it 
forces me to play closer to the bridge; which is preferable both for the 
sound & more historically accurate. (That of course is why they were 
more "accurate" back then!)   -Dan


On 6/29/2019 6:10 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

Physics, I suppose!))
The pull of the strings deepens the scoop, rather then lifting the bridge.

The non-concave soundboard also carries a large risk of becoming convex, and 
I’ve seen a few lutes with a nasty bulge between the bridge and the rose.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


On Jun 29, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:

What is the reasoning behind that claim?

Best,

Matthew



Le 29 juin 2019 à 12:37, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :

The scoop keeps the action stable, and that’s its main function.
An axe without the scoop is a disaster to be avoided.
RT


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[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Dan Winheld]

I thought most lutenists cropped their mails although some do not, and 
that most guitarists let their mails grow long;  although again some do 
not.  I have cropped MY mails for good!


Dan


On 6/27/2019 3:48 PM, G. C. wrote:

  Because people are superlazy, and don't crop their mails, but just
  add their message and happy posting! Aaaarggghh

G.




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[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Dan Winheld]

ee an absurd number of modern players (who really
   should know better) using thumb-under technique on baroque lute and
   theorbo. This is patently unhistorical. In fact, it is well known
   that music from circa 1600 onward should be played with the thumb out.
   While the lute world is populated by an abundance of opinionated
   hobbyists, Julian Bream is a real musician, and probably still has
   chops most lute players will never attain. Let's give the man the
   respect he deserves.
   RA
   __
   From: [8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [9] on behalf
   of Gary Boye [10]
   Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 11:23 AM
   To: Edward C. Yong
   Cc: Jurgen Frenz; Lute List
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute
   Edward,
   Back in the '70s, there was a quip that "Julian Bream makes the lute
   sound like a guitar and the guitar sound like a lute." I think that
   came from guitarists who had no idea what the lute could sound like.
   He was pretty amazing in concert (on guitar, I didn't see him play
   lute), and quite a character off stage. In addition to "lute," he
   also
   played "vihuela" and "Baroque guitar" (quotes used intentionally!) .
   .
   . Can't say I'd recommend his early music recordings to students
   today
   though..
   Gary
   On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 5:39 AM Edward C. Yong
   [11]<[1]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote:
   I have to agree. JB used his stardom to get the lute out there,
   even
   if it was a Frankenlute with nothing lute about it apart from the
   shape.
   Would anyone have paid attention to his lute playing if it hadn't
   ridden on the back of his guitarist reputation? Probably not.
   I recognise that many here were introduced to the lute via JB's
   efforts, but my own experience was rather different. My first
   exposure to lute music was an LP of Julian Bream playing Dowland
   in
   my school library, and that put me off the lute - it sounded like
   a
   classical guitar to me, so at 12, I didn't see the point. It
   wasn't
   until a year later that I heard Paul O'Dette and Jakob Lindberg's
   cd
   of Elizabethan lute duets and that changed my mind entirely - I
   wanted to play an instrument that sounded like theirs.
   While I have much respect for JB being a musician on the guitar
   and
   an 'early adopter', I fear I find his tone on the lute to be thin
   and hard, or âmetallic sharp' as Mr Frenz calls it. It's difficult
   for me to look past the tone and appreciate JB's musicianship on
   the
   lutewhen I find the tone unattractive - and this is my failing,
   not
   JB's.
   Edward
   > On 19 Jun 2019, at 12:40 PM, Jurgen Frenz
   [12]<[2]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote:
   >
   > Julian Bream was a vital part (I believe) of the lute revival 50
   years ago by making the music public. On the downside of it he
   played guitar technique on it to the point of using singe strings
   on
   both the high G and D courses - it allowed him to play apoyando on
   the lute which is a big no-no. Hence his lute playing doesn't
   really
   sound like a lute. Also, at that time, it was common guitar
   technique to use sound differences to emphasize or mark formal
   sections by moving the right hand extremely close to the bridge,
   which creates a very metallic sharp sound. This has fallen out of
   favor on the guitar as well, I personally would qualify it as
   obnoxious, even more so on the lute.
   > If you like it, you may listen to Konrad Ragossnigs lute
   recordings, he sounds very much like Bream did.
   >
   > Best
   > Jurgen
   >
   >
   > --
   > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there."
   >
   > JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
   >
   > âââââââ Original Message 
âââââââ
   > On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:13 AM, Franz Mechsner
   [13]<[3]franz.mechs...@gmx.de> wrote:
   >
   >> Dear Dan,
   >>
   >> Julian Bream actually pioneered lute playing very early. Watch
   >> this beautiful movie on him that makes me smile (lute things
   come
   >> somewhere in the
   >> middle): [1][4][1][14]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
   >>
   >> Warm regards and best
   >> Franz
   >>
   >> Dr. Franz Mechsner
   >> Zum Kirschberg 40
   >> D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
   >> +49(0)33841 441362
   >> [[15]5]franz.mechs...@gmx.de
   >>
   >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2019 um 01:07 Uhr
   >> Von: "Dan Winheld" [[16]6]dwinh...@lmi.net
   >> An: "Franz Mechsner" [[17]7]franz.mechs...@gmx.de,
   [[18]8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Julian Bream on Lute
   >

[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Dan Winheld]

rp sound. This has fallen out of
 favor on the guitar as well, I personally would qualify it as
 obnoxious, even more so on the lute.
 > If you like it, you may listen to Konrad Ragossnigs lute
 recordings, he sounds very much like Bream did.
 >
 > Best
 > Jurgen
 >
 >
 > --
 > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there."
 >
 > JalÃ"l ad-DÃ"«n Muhammad Rumi
 >
 > âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
 > On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:13 AM, Franz Mechsner
 <[3]franz.mechs...@gmx.de> wrote:
 >
 >> Dear Dan,
 >>
 >> Julian Bream actually pioneered lute playing very early. Watch
 >> this beautiful movie on him that makes me smile (lute things
come
 >> somewhere in the
 >> middle): [1][4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
 >>
 >> Warm regards and best
 >> Franz
 >>
 >> Dr. Franz Mechsner
 >> Zum Kirschberg 40
     >> D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
 >> +49(0)33841 441362
 >> [5]franz.mechs...@gmx.de
 >>
 >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2019 um 01:07 Uhr
 >> Von: "Dan Winheld" [6]dwinh...@lmi.net
 >> An: "Franz Mechsner" [7]franz.mechs...@gmx.de,
 [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 >> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Julian Bream on Lute
 >> Nope. Never heard of him.
 >> On 6/18/2019 3:49 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote:
 >>
 >>> Dear collective wisdom,
 >>
 >>>
 >>
 >>> I just heard some pieces played by admired guitarist Julian
Bram
 on
 >>
 >> the
 >>
 >>> lute. It seems to me he played kind of classical guitar style
on
 the
 >>
 >>> lute. Strange, but It sounds wonderful to me, not only bold
for
 the
 >>
 >>> time. Does anyone understand how he played the (maybe special)
 lute
 >>
 >> and
 >>
 >>> produced the wonderful sound on a lute admittedly built for
him?
 >>
 >>>
 >>
 >>> Best and curious
 >>
 >>> Franz
 >>
 >>>
 >>
 >>> Dr. Franz Mechsner
 >>
 >>> Zum Kirschberg 40
 >>
 >>> D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
 >>
 >>> +49(0)33841 441362
 >>
 >>> [9]franz.mechs...@gmx.de
 >>
 >>>
 >>
 >>>
 >>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>
 >>> [2][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>
 >>>
 >>
 >> References
 >>
 >> 1.   [11]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
 >> 2.   [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >
 >
 >
   --
   Dr. Gary R. Boye
   Erneston Music Library
   Appalachian State University
   --
References
   1. [1]mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   2. [2]mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com
   3. [3]mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
   4. [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
   5. [5]mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
   6. [6]mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   7. [7]mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
   8. [8]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. [9]mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
  10. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. [11]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
  12. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Virus-free. [13]www.avast.com

--

References

Visible links:
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3. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
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5. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
6. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
7. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
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   13. 
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Hidden links:
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[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Dan Winheld]

Nope. Never heard of him.

On 6/18/2019 3:49 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote:

Dear collective wisdom,

I just heard some pieces played by admired guitarist Julian Bram on the
lute. It seems to me he played kind of classical guitar style on the
lute. Strange, but It sounds wonderful to me, not only bold for the
time. Does anyone understand how he played the (maybe special) lute and
produced the wonderful sound on a lute admittedly built for him?

Best and curious
Franz

Dr. Franz Mechsner
Zum Kirschberg 40
D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
+49(0)33841 441362
franz.mechs...@gmx.de


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[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme

[Dan Winheld]

The clock can't run if its winded. But you got to wind it to make it run.

On 6/7/2019 3:12 PM, Leonard Williams wrote:

And then, of course, you've got the complication of wind (moving air)
or "wind the clock".
Leonard





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[LUTE] "Everybody Loves Reymann" THANKS!

[Dan Winheld]

Dear Luternetters-

Muchas Gracias for all the Reymann links- PDFs, fronimonstrosities and 
other postcunabula renderings. Of the two or so that I was able to 
access, I chose to print out the one with a table of contents- to anyone 
else inclined to do likewise, DON'T FAIL TO INCLUDE THIS- the pages In 
the PDF I printed are not quite numbered- only if a piece is more than 
one page, so no page no. exceeds "3"- monitor the print output 
rigorously and collate slowly & obsessively, then number them yourself. 
140 odd, unnumbered pages flying off the music and you might as well 
shoot yourself.


Well worth it; this collection is as good as some of you have said it 
is. The best download of this sort that I have done since I printed out 
the Fuenllana "Orphenica Lyra" in its entirety. Real meaty music, high 
quality- complex, full, melodic, but not sadistic (like Melchior 
Neusidler & a few others).


I forget at this point who sent out which versions, so a THANKS to all, 
& I encourage everyone to try Reymann's music. Written for 8 course, but 
the less usual bass string tuning of a=D, and /a=CC. A pain to retune my 
F/D 8 course, so I am playing it on the 10 course. You do need that low "C".


Cheers, Dan W.

On 5/4/2019 7:13 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

I don't know if someone posted it here since last week but here is the pdf of 
Noctes Musicae. Sorry for wasting bandwidth if I repost it.

Best regards
Jurgen




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[LUTE] Re: Reymann

[Dan Winheld]

David-

Rest assured, MOST useful!

Thanks for sharing-
Dan

On 5/2/2019 8:03 PM, David Smith wrote:

I have created a PDF of Douglas Towne's edition from the Fronimo archive and 
posted it at http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/.
I hope it is useful.

David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of Jurgen 
Frenz
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2019 1:24 AM
To: Mathias Rösel 
Cc: Lutelist 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reymann

There is a "modern" edition on the Fronimo user group archive, I guess it is accessible 
to Fronimo users only. It was made in 1999, the "readme" doesn't identify the author. My 
guess is Göran Krona or Jason Curtis.


--
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, May 2, 2019 1:25 PM, Mathias Rösel  
wrote:





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[LUTE] Re: French tab prints - why 5 lines?

[Dan Winheld]

Inertia.

On 5/2/2019 7:00 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

Here's a question:

Why do French prints have 5 lines for the 6 course instrument?

Early manuscripts like Pesaro  (but not all of them, like BSB Mus. Ms.
2987) already employ six lines.

While 5 lines in Ms. can be explained by the use of the same 5-point pen
used for the lines of staff notation, I wonder why this is also occuring
in prints?

In type-set prints, you need to make different types for staff and tab
notation, so why keep 5 lines?



:)
T*




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[LUTE] Re: Reymann

[Dan Winheld]

Congratulations Tristan and Magnus- you have gotten me interested in 
getting Reymann's "Noctes"; unfortunately my eyesight has degraded to 
the point where I can no longer read facsimiles. Are there any modern 
typeset editions? (Any tab system or pitch notation- just has to be 
legible to ancient eyes)

Thanks for any leads-
Dan

On 4/26/2019 10:19 PM, magnus andersson wrote:

Dear Tristan,

I have played some Reymann in concert. His Noctes collection is indeed
one of the finest collections of lute music that's come down to us.

His galliardas are among the the most virtuouso pieces in the whole
repertoire.

He must have been a very accomplished musician!

I hope to record some of his music in the future. His Cythara sacra is
a great pendant to Noctes. Much more meditative and less technically
demanding.

Best,

Magnus
[1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone

Den fredag, april 26, 2019, 10:29 em, skrev Tristan von Neumann
:

Just got my hands on Noctes Musicae 1598 by Matthaeus Reymann.

Has anyone played it?

I am amazed that there is absolutely no recording of this amazing very

original music.

The collection has huge choral and other fantasies with lots of great

ideas, and especially pavans that rival the fantastic treatment of

Daniel Batchelar's - these aren't dances anymore, but fantasies ordered

by the pavan model.

The best thing: the difficulty is not that high compared to the effect:

the fingering is very logical and doesn't distract from the beauty of

the pieces.

Huge recommendation.

To get on or off this list see list information at

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References

1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)

[Dan Winheld]

Jurgen-

So forget the existential-theological question as to whether or not "Q" 
exists, just play the note that does make sense and move on. Nothing to 
lose sleep over; printed errors have existed ever since the beginning of 
written communication. Even after 20 years in the printing business 
nasty little bugs have slipped by me, despite multiple proof reading 
checks.   As your signature sign off so eloquently states;


“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Dan


On 3/31/2019 2:31 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

Hi Dan,

I posted in my initial message a screenshot of the original, it is a Mercure d'Orléan piece "Auff der Schlacht von 
Padua" printed in Fuhrmann's Testudo. The bars in question are on page 188 at the 2 bottom lines, the position 
goes up to "t" which leaves me puzzled. If "q" exists then "t" is C# assuming tuning in G 
and that note wouldn't make any sense in an F major piece.


--
“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, March 30, 2019 12:48 PM, Jurgen Frenz 
 wrote:


Dan, so if your instrument goes up to "r", do you count "q" as a fret? My issue with my initial 
post was how those positions above the octave are labelled. And in the example tab I cited, if "t" refers to 
the 4th above the octave there is one letter missing. My assumption was that "q" was skipped.
Jurgen


---

“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, March 30, 2019 7:27 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote:


I have seen pics of 18th century d-minor lutes (no idea if that was an
original setup), usually swan neck variety with 14 frets. Makes sense to
me, there's room and no reason not to. I don't often run through the
Bach d-minor suite but when I come to the chaconne I hit that spot &
wonder when I am going to glue on those last two frets. My 8 course goes
up to fret r because of some Piazzolla arrangements I made a few years ago.
Dan
On 3/29/2019 2:34 AM, Susan Price wrote:


 I always have my baroque Lutes with 14 frets, and I use that high g all
 the time (for instance in the Bach chacone). 2 of my archlutes go up to
 fret Q because I wrote a piece that goes that high.

 Susan

  Original message 
 From: Rainer 
 Date: 3/28/19 9:39 AM (GMT-07:00)
 To: Lute List 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)

 Yes, it's as simple as that.
 n
 o,
 p,
 ..
 so j is the only one that is not used. In those days there was no real
 difference between "i" and "j".
 Dowland uses p somewhere, Piccinini goes much higher (20th fret) and
 ages ago somebody found a piece that went even higher (I think it was
 26) in an 18th century tablature.
 Rainer
 On 28.03.2019 11:11, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
 > Hello there,
 >
 > my apologies, I forgot that the list bot doesn't handle images so
 a
 > message I sent earlier was unreadable. So here I go again, with
 the
 > relevant image of the tabulature linked to google drive.
 >
 > I didn't find an answer online or on the British Lute Society's
 FB page
 > as to how positions above the octave are identified on a lute.
 There is
 > this curious section in Mercure d'Orléan's "Auff der Schlacht
 von
 > Padua" in Fuhrmann's Testudio p.188 where he notates notes as
 "p", "r"
 > and "t". As I don't want to trust my assumption that these would
 > correspond to finger positions 14,15 and 17 or the notes 'a',
 'bb' and
 > 'c' assuming a lute in g I am asking here for the facts. And
 where are
 > these finger positions or 'fret names' codified? I attach a
 screen shot
 > of the last two lines of that page. Oh and I don't want to
 discuss the
 > musical quality of that lengthy piece.
 >
 >
 [1]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z
 >
 > Any advice would be very welcome!
 >
 > Best wishes Jurgen
 >
 > --
 > "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
 >
 > JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1.
 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >

[LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)

[Dan Winheld]

 Ed- I'm not assuming actual frets. That's why I nearly always use the 
words "13 semitone" - (or whatever semitone) when talking about any note 
above the 8ve. In fact, one should never assume any actual fret above 
the 8th, 9th, or sometimes 10th. Except, maybe, late German D-minor 
lutes- the ones where I have sometimes seen pics of up to 14 frets?


We all know about Dowland mentioning Mathias Mason and his invention of 
wooden body frets. And, of course, that annoying Da Costa picture of a 
fat old 5 course with strange ebony looking frets in the late 15th century.


Dan

On 3/30/2019 9:23 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote:

I’m kind of surprised everyone is assuming there would be frets. What year was 
the original piece Jurgen? As I understand it, many Renaissance lutes show no 
evidence of body frets.

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/








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[LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)

[Dan Winheld]

I have seen pics of 18th century d-minor lutes (no idea if that was an 
original setup), usually swan neck variety with 14 frets. Makes sense to 
me, there's room and no reason not to. I don't often run through the 
Bach d-minor suite but when I come to the chaconne I hit that spot & 
wonder when I am going to glue on those last two frets. My 8 course goes 
up to fret r because of some Piazzolla arrangements I made a few years ago.


Dan

On 3/29/2019 2:34 AM, Susan Price wrote:

I always have my baroque Lutes with 14 frets, and I use that high g all
the time (for instance in the Bach chacone). 2 of my archlutes go up to
fret Q because I wrote a piece that goes that high.

Susan

 Original message 
From: Rainer 
Date: 3/28/19 9:39 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)

Yes, it's as simple as that.
n
o,
p,
..
so j is the only one that is not used. In those days there was no real
difference between "i" and "j".
Dowland uses p somewhere, Piccinini goes much higher (20th fret) and
ages ago somebody found a piece that went even higher (I think it was
26) in an 18th century tablature.
Rainer
On 28.03.2019 11:11, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> my apologies, I forgot that the list bot doesn't handle images so
a
> message I sent earlier was unreadable. So here I go again, with
the
> relevant image of the tabulature linked to google drive.
>
> I didn't find an answer online or on the British Lute Society's
FB page
> as to how positions above the octave are identified on a lute.
There is
> this curious section in Mercure d'Orléan's "Auff der Schlacht
von
> Padua" in Fuhrmann's Testudio p.188 where he notates notes as
"p", "r"
> and "t". As I don't want to trust my assumption that these would
> correspond to finger positions 14,15 and 17 or the notes 'a',
'bb' and
> 'c' assuming a lute in g I am asking here for the facts. And
where are
> these finger positions or 'fret names' codified? I attach a
screen shot
> of the last two lines of that page. Oh and I don't want to
discuss the
> musical quality of that lengthy piece.
>
>
[1]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z
>
> Any advice would be very welcome!
>
> Best wishes Jurgen
>
> --
> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>
> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
>
> References
>
> 1.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)

[Dan Winheld]

Dowland uses the 14th semitone- tab letter "p"- which is found in John 
Langton's Galliard.  Semitone 13, written as (13) can be found in 
Molinaro's fine fantasia #12, and it is indeed the 20th semi-tone in 
Toccata #1 by Picinnini from his 2nd book, lower case "l" being the tab 
letter; which in this book begins with letter "d" for the 12 fret, or 
(semitone, in the absence of wooden body frets).

-Dan W.

On 3/28/2019 8:39 AM, Rainer wrote:

Yes, it's as simple as that.

n=12
o=13,
p=14,
..

so j is the only one that is not used. In those days there was no real 
difference between "i" and "j".


Dowland uses p somewhere, Piccinini goes much higher (20th fret) and 
ages ago somebody found a piece that went even higher (I think it was 
26) in an 18th century tablature.


Rainer

On 28.03.2019 11:11, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

    Hello there,

    my apologies, I forgot that the list bot doesn't handle images so a
    message I sent earlier was unreadable. So here I go again, with the
    relevant image of the tabulature linked to google drive.

    I didn't find an answer online or on the British Lute Society's 
FB page
    as to how positions above the octave are identified on a lute. 
There is

    this curious section in Mercure d'Orléan's "Auff der Schlacht von
    Padua" in Fuhrmann's Testudio p.188 where he notates notes as 
"p", "r"

    and "t". As I don't want to trust my assumption that these would
    correspond to finger positions 14,15 and 17 or the notes 'a', 
'bb' and
    'c' assuming a lute in g I am asking here for the facts. And 
where are
    these finger positions or 'fret names' codified? I attach a 
screen shot
    of the last two lines of that page. Oh and I don't want to 
discuss the

    musical quality of that lengthy piece.

[1]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z

    Any advice would be very welcome!

    Best wishes Jurgen

    --
    "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

    JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi

References

    1. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z



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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Dan Winheld]

Yes, very beautiful. Great video too.    -Dan

On 3/12/2019 3:14 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

Maciej Konczak plays one,

as heard here -

[1]https://youtu.be/H7KrfGtV1jg

RT

[2]http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
On Mar 12, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Daniel Shoskes <[3]kidneykut...@gmail.com>
wrote:

It's a d minor tuned "German theorbo" so the double courses in the
treble feel comfortable and familiar as any Jauck lute. I've tried the
basses single strung (as mentioned by Baron) and with the octaves and
do like the double strung octaves better. Played near the bridge I
don't feel a loss of volume with the octaves. Again, a very niche
instrument played by only a few enthusiasts around the world (Hoppy,
Benjamin Narvey and Magnus Andersson I believe).
Danny




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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Dan Winheld]

"Foot"note to my previous: Not to be forgotten iwas the extraordinary 
musician Joseph Iadone, bass player turned lutenist, associated with 
Paul Hindemith. Sui Generis, a lute player like no other; who forged his 
own path. He influenced me as well through his old Archive recordings; 
even before I discovered Julian Bream.


On 3/12/2019 9:38 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
Martin Shepherd & Daniel Shoskes have each clearly revealed the 
essence of the two horns of this dilemma:


#1.  The need to reproduce ALL the exact factors that must come into 
play to properly discover (rediscover?) the actual sound worlds of 
each & every different plucked instrument from quill plucked Medieval 
lutes to last-gasp end of the 18 century lutes. And all the 
in-betweens, where most of the current bloodshed is occurring.  After 
instruments & strings are sorted out, get the hands corrected and the 
ears adjusted.


#2. The equally compelling need for a student and lover of these old & 
not yet fully understood sound worlds to nevertheless get going and 
play this stuff, despite physical limitations and incomplete knowledge.


This tension was clearly seen back during the time Julian Bream 
appeared on the scene bringing the lute (yes, of course "his" lute; he 
had no other; nor the means to play any other) to the public when 
Diana Poulton and others could not. Their task being that of 
exploration and study; creating all the necessary groundwork to ensure 
that future lutenists would come closer to the ideal of our beloved 
idee fixe that only Julian planted in the hearts and minds of so many 
of us older lute students.


For some of us, Thumb-under was embraced as the only means to unlock 
our twisted wrists from the tyranny of Segovia's draconian "my way or 
the highway" approach to playing and teaching. Yes, I used that means 
on my first  "real" lute, an 8 course, a work of the late master Hugh 
Gough, clavichord builder extraordinaire (he declared the lute,  "The 
last instrument fit for a gentleman to play"). That instrument, so 
groundbreaking in its day (1973) exists now as the body of my small 
archlute, courtesy of Mel Wong.
I now play that instrument thumb out, but nowhere near the "thumb out" 
of Andres Segovia! Same for my other instruments except the 6 course- 
a mean lute (pitched at G, a-440 or A, a-392; take your pick) which 
becomes greased rocket sports car when played this way.


I have a Baroque lute student- no longer young- with arthritis issues 
in his hands. All he wants is to play his lute- a fine Burkholtzer 
version by Dan Larson- any way possible given his conditions. We 
accommodate, because we have to. The lute, like any other musical 
instrument of any time, place, or condition of humanity; is to bring a 
little joy, pleasure, solace, relief, and enlightenment into one's 
life in a world already fraught with enough trouble and annoyance to 
go around.


-But do carry on! Great discussion, actually.   Dan W.


On 3/12/2019 6:15 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Martin: I see no contradiction between being genuinely interested in 
what historical lutes sounded like and how they were played and my 
comments below which agree with Besard that if your hand can’t 
physically achieve the ideal position, you can make adjustments. The 
classical guitar comment referred to how I played CG in my youth with 
the thumb out and the wrist internally rotated, a position that I can 
no longer sustain on the CG and which I agree is not synonymous with 
thumb out lute technique. I do agree that as more players experiment 
with thumb out while also trying to replicate what we know or suspect 
about distance from the bridge and gut string tension that it may 
change how we hear and interpret the music.


You might be pleased to know however that my theorbo is double strung 
in gut!


Danny

On Mar 12, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Martin Shepherd  
wrote:


I'm genuinely interested in what historical lutes sounded like and 
how they were played, so I'm not so interested in a "whatever works 
for you" approach, however popular it may be, along with single 
strung "archlutes", microscopic theorboes, and other horrors which 
are nothing to do with historical evidence.


I think if there is a "dominant" lute technique it is "thumb 
out"(TO), because it certainly existed in the 16th C and became the 
normal technique from c.1600 on.  But when I look at the 
iconography, like Jurgen I see fingers at right angles to the 
strings, and even a suggestion that strings were approached from 
beneath (as happens when I try this position, because my middle 
finger is long compared to the others). Nails, even if very short, 
come into the picture too.  So I think we have a long way to go to 
appreciate the sound and technique of TO, and (as with the first 
attempts at TU in the 1970s) we have a lot of experimentation to do 
to

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Dan Winheld]

Martin Shepherd & Daniel Shoskes have each clearly revealed the essence 
of the two horns of this dilemma:


#1.  The need to reproduce ALL the exact factors that must come into 
play to properly discover (rediscover?) the actual sound worlds of each 
& every different plucked instrument from quill plucked Medieval lutes 
to last-gasp end of the 18 century lutes. And all the in-betweens, where 
most of the current bloodshed is occurring.  After instruments & strings 
are sorted out, get the hands corrected and the ears adjusted.


#2. The equally compelling need for a student and lover of these old & 
not yet fully understood sound worlds to nevertheless get going and play 
this stuff, despite physical limitations and incomplete knowledge.


This tension was clearly seen back during the time Julian Bream appeared 
on the scene bringing the lute (yes, of course "his" lute; he had no 
other; nor the means to play any other) to the public when Diana Poulton 
and others could not. Their task being that of exploration and study; 
creating all the necessary groundwork to ensure that future lutenists 
would come closer to the ideal of our beloved idee fixe that only Julian 
planted in the hearts and minds of so many of us older lute students.


For some of us, Thumb-under was embraced as the only means to unlock our 
twisted wrists from the tyranny of Segovia's draconian "my way or the 
highway" approach to playing and teaching. Yes, I used that means on my 
first  "real" lute, an 8 course, a work of the late master Hugh Gough, 
clavichord builder extraordinaire (he declared the lute,  "The last 
instrument fit for a gentleman to play"). That instrument, so 
groundbreaking in its day (1973) exists now as the body of my small 
archlute, courtesy of Mel Wong.
I now play that instrument thumb out, but nowhere near the "thumb out" 
of Andres Segovia! Same for my other instruments except the 6 course- a 
mean lute (pitched at G, a-440 or A, a-392; take your pick) which 
becomes greased rocket sports car when played this way.


I have a Baroque lute student- no longer young- with arthritis issues in 
his hands. All he wants is to play his lute- a fine Burkholtzer version 
by Dan Larson- any way possible given his conditions. We accommodate, 
because we have to. The lute, like any other musical instrument of any 
time, place, or condition of humanity; is to bring a little joy, 
pleasure, solace, relief, and enlightenment into one's life in a world 
already fraught with enough trouble and annoyance to go around.


-But do carry on! Great discussion, actually.   Dan W.


On 3/12/2019 6:15 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:

Martin: I see no contradiction between being genuinely interested in what 
historical lutes sounded like and how they were played and my comments below 
which agree with Besard that if your hand can’t physically achieve the ideal 
position, you can make adjustments. The classical guitar comment referred to 
how I played CG in my youth with the thumb out and the wrist internally 
rotated, a position that I can no longer sustain on the CG and which I agree is 
not synonymous with thumb out lute technique. I do agree that as more players 
experiment with thumb out while also trying to replicate what we know or 
suspect about distance from the bridge and gut string tension that it may 
change how we hear and interpret the music.

You might be pleased to know however that my theorbo is double strung in gut!

Danny


On Mar 12, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Martin Shepherd  wrote:

I'm genuinely interested in what historical lutes sounded like and how they were played, so I'm not 
so interested in a "whatever works for you" approach, however popular it may be, along 
with single strung "archlutes", microscopic theorboes, and other horrors which are 
nothing to do with historical evidence.

I think if there is a "dominant" lute technique it is "thumb out"(TO), because it 
certainly existed in the 16th C and became the normal technique from c.1600 on.  But when I look at the 
iconography, like Jurgen I see fingers at right angles to the strings, and even a suggestion that strings 
were approached from beneath (as happens when I try this position, because my middle finger is long compared 
to the others).  Nails, even if very short, come into the picture too.  So I think we have a long way to go 
to appreciate the sound and technique of TO, and (as with the first attempts at TU in the 1970s) we have a 
lot of experimentation to do to arrive at something which feels natural and efficient.  It's not just a 
question of reverting to "classical guitar" technique - whatever you conceive that to be - but a 
more difficult process of exploration and experimentation.

Martin


On 12/03/2019 11:48, Daniel Shoskes wrote:

Jürgen: Absolutely hit the nail on the head. It’s all about the sound and 
people have different hand anatomy and physiology. Iconography and fingering is 
an important starting point but if it doesn’t fit your hand 

[LUTE] Re: Chanterelle

[Dan Winheld]

Pathfinder-
Shocked & Horrified =-O that I've never heard of Omniflex! -And I've 
heard of a lot of string things...

-Thanks for the tip!


On 1/13/2019 1:56 PM, pathfin...@qwestoffice.net wrote:

I'm sure everyone will be horrified, but I use Ominflex 25lb test nylon
fishing line (from WalMart: about 2 or 3 dollars for a lifetime supply  : )
for the G (1st) string on my 8-string guitar...it works great.  I use the
20lb test for the chanterelle of my 8c Renaissance lute (600mm).  It works
great as well.  I have found plenty of inexpensive  replacements for other
strings too, among fishing lines and guitar strings if you do a little
calculating and choose conservatively.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Wim Loos
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2019 2:09 PM
To: LuteNet list 
Subject: [LUTE] Chanterelle

Dear all,
I ´m looking to string my 7c renaissance lute, string length 60cm
(a=415) again. In this moment I use nylgut and pyramid wound strings.
Only the chanterelle is nylon while the nylgut string was broken.
I considder to use carbon for the chanterelle, does anybody know if is
this a good alternative.
I hope jou can give me a advise what to do.
Thanks in advance,
Wim Loos

--


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[LUTE] Re: Chanterelle

[Dan Winheld]

The one string/course where a carbon fiber has never worked for me. Too 
harsh is a good term.


Dan Winheld

On 1/12/2019 2:06 PM, Mayes, Joseph wrote:

My $.02
I find the carbon chanterelle to be on the "harsh" side.

Joseph Mayes

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of Wim Loos 

Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2019 4:08 PM
To: LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Chanterelle

Dear all,
I ´m looking to string my 7c renaissance lute, string length 60cm
(a=415) again. In this moment I use nylgut and pyramid wound strings.
Only the chanterelle is nylon while the nylgut string was broken.
I considder to use carbon for the chanterelle, does anybody know if is
this a good alternative.
I hope jou can give me a advise what to do.
Thanks in advance,
Wim Loos

--


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[LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo

[Dan Winheld]

What is Spanish tablature?


On 1/2/2019 11:04 AM, Rainer wrote:

Hello out there,

I have a question regarding Fronimo:

When I open a tab file (Wayne's tab pgm) in Fronimo, Fronimo "thinks" 
it is Italian tab.


Any idea anybody how to tell Fronimo it is Spanish tablature?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: music stands

[Dan Winheld]

My current stand (nominally portable/collapsible) but is my stay at home 
study/practice center:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Superstand-Extra-Wide-Fold-Out-Music-Stand-soloist-conductor-/253916282119?hash=item3b1e96fd07

I really love this one, but there are other wider desk stands on this 
particular ebay page:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Peak-Music-SMS-35-Conductor-Music-Stand-WIDE-with-Solid-Desk-and-Tote-Bag-New-/332306917965?hash=item4d5f092a4d

-I may also go for this last one as a back-up (& more portable), 26.75" 
wide is good for 3 pages, and less massive than my other one if I ever 
get another gig in m life;


Dan

On 10/17/2018 10:45 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: music stands
   Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:39:20 +0200
   From: Martin Shepherd [1]
 To: Jean-Marie Poirier [2]
Thanks to all who replied!  OK I'll try K & M.

M

On 17/10/2018 19:14, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

K & M - German made -are the best !

Jean-Marie

--


Can anyone recommend a good traditional metal music stand?  I don't mean
the very heavy orchestral stand, just a "normal" fold-out one.  I ask
because it seems that they're all made in China and are flimsy and
unstable.  I have one (I think it's Stagg) where the top attaches to the
rest with just one rivet, so it just wobbles.

I need the little fold-out arms so I can see three-page pieces, too.

Thanks for any advice,

M



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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[Dan Winheld]

The Olde Shakespeherian Rage doth blow againe.  Stray not too farre from 
Occam's Barbershop-  whenever necessary, he giveth a very close shave 
indeed! (And mayhap a cittern, even a lute may be hanging on the wall- 
keeping our wayward thread music related...)


On 9/17/2018 9:40 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

I'm familiar with Shapiro's work.  The authorship question indeed.  It
is a question and not a given.  Some like to say the man from Stratford
was the sole author of the tremendous output of the works of
Shakespeare.  That is a theory that has yet to be proven, no matter
what your scholars of English Renaissance literature like to propose.

A thinking person considers that tremendous output and weighs it
against the physical reality of the amount of time required to produce
all that scribbling in light of the work a player like William
Shakespeare was required to do in order to survive.   Then a thinking
person considers how persons of noble rank would refrain from
publishing their work (Sidney's work was published posthumously).  And
a thinking person observes how authors and musicians would participate
in a salon atmosphere under the patronage of someone like Lucy Countess
of Bedford.

I have had the opportunity to delve into the subject, and the evidence
points to work produced by more than one author that retains a
consistent voice due to a collaborative effort with a common goal.
Like the collaborative effort that produced the King James Bible.

What does this have to do with lute music anyway?
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of T.J. Sellari 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 3:19 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The awful English language

   Re: Shakespeare authorship question
   There are many theories that purport to cast doubt on Shakespeare's
   authorship of the plays attributed to him, but scholars of English
   Renaisssance literature consider them largely nonsense. I suggest
you
   take a look at _Contested Will_ by James Shapiro. A review of the
book
   can be found here:

[1]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wro
   te-shakespeare
   On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 7:16 PM Ron Andrico
<[2]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:
Absolument, Alain.   Many forget that the English court was
 actually
French until the upstart Henry Tudor slaughtered his way to the
throne.   Even then, French was spoken at court through much of
 the 16th
century.
As for the less-than-eloquent William Shakespeare,   it's just
 plain
silly to think he actually wrote the canon commonly attributed
to
 his
name.   He was a player, a station lower than that of a
 professional
musician.   We can support various theories of who wrote the
 works
commonly attributed to Shakespeare, but my informed belief is
 that they
were written by committee, just like the King James Bible was a
 few
years hence.
I think there is strong evidence that the plays arose from the
 circle
surrounding Lucy Countess of Bedford, including the   likes of
 John
Donne, Ben Jonson, Edmund Spenser, Samuel Danyel.   There is
also
 a
theory that the very literate Countess of Pembroke, Sir Philip
 Sidney's
sister, may have dipped her quill in.
William Shakepeare the playwright is a successful bit of
 propaganda
that paved the way for other enormous lies that the public
buys.
   It's
really very easy for those in a position of power to promote an
 idea
with PR and make the public believe it.   Like A=415 was
 historical
baroque pitch, for instance.
 __
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 on behalf
of Alain Veylit <[5]al...@musickshandmade.com>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 8:37 AM
To: howard posner; Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The awful English language
If you really want to have a blast at the awful English
language,
 look
for something called "law French", a language understood only
by
English
lawyers and very much alive until at least the 18th century. It
 makes
modern legaleeze sound simple, although still difficult to read
 because
in very small letters. Many poor people sent to the gallows had
 no idea
what 

[LUTE] Re: Builder of Hard Cases

[Dan Winheld]

Obviously we need good, protective hard cases for umlauts too.

On 9/6/2018 11:39 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:21 PM, Stephan Olbertz  wrote:

Umlaut-trouble again...

"Holger Gotz" (with umlaut) actually came through perfectly on my my email, 
without the digital garbage that you got on the copy sent back to you.  Don’t ask me to 
explain why my email server in California handled the umlaut better than yours in Germany.



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[LUTE] Re: Straps

[Dan Winheld]

Personally could never understand or tolerate a strap on any normal, 
i.e., non-extended neck lute. Only necessary on tiny lutes (like wearing 
a necktie!) or the big bad boys. My archlute- a rather small one- does 
require the strap. But not my 68cm. 13 course bass rider d-minor lute.

Dan

On 8/16/2018 2:57 PM, David Van Edwards wrote:

Well yes I fear so!

Out of my searchable database of (now) 2060 images which I've been 
collecting for years there are just 49 with a lute strap in use! And 
most of those are archlutes or theorbos. I think this is indeed a 
serious question.


An initial part of this database has been uploaded onto the Lute 
Society website at 
https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/lute-iconography-database but it is 
still somewhat in a beta state and not all the fields have populated 
properly yet. But you may find it interesting for searches such as this.


Best wishes,

David



At 22:09 +0100 16/8/18, Peter Martin wrote:

   The Lute Society's recent Lutezine 126 contains about 27 pictures of
   historic lute players, of whom about 0 are playing with a strap.
   Should I simply throw away my new 'Capirola' lute strap, which 
arrived

   in the post this week?   It's very pretty, but if no-one ever used
   them
   Peter

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[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod

[Dan Winheld]

Alright, I give up. Tristan- what exactly do you want? Attention? You 
got that. Universal love & agreement? Wrong planet, (or universe). 
Honorary Doctorate of the Raga-Mezzo Mashup phenomenon? Don't apply to a 
lute list!


It's been an interesting (at times), but finally a tiresome ride you've 
taken us on. Discussion went way, way beyond my own simple 
understanding- not just of Indian music theory, but European as well. (I 
am a mere "pulsatore" of lute-shaped objects). But, I have done 12-bar 
blues/Passamezzo Antico mashups on my own. Generally much later in the 
evening, with imbibable assists from single malt Scottish mash-ups. -And 
NONE of the lute-lists damn business!


Dan W.


On 8/10/2018 7:02 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, 
instead those from the eristics bin?


So, officially I ask the list:
Does anyone of you support anything I say?
There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are 
playing the tracks.

Don't be afraid to speak up.
It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please 
ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically 
flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", 
or worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", 
or purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This 
is not a scientific magazine.





Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:

    Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
    spam.  He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to
    put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard 
evidence
    rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether 
the

    whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..
    So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
    thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like 
you and

    Jurgen Frenz.  I too see no reason to change my final comment to
    Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
    continue.
    Martyn Hodgson
---
    -





  2 Apr at 12:10 PM







    To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
    Thank you for this.  As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
    because there
    appears to be some similarities, various European early musical 
forms

    must
    have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by 
Monteverdi

    and
    others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
    It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
    properly developed
    paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
    seeking to have
    it published? - and when will it appear?
    Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
    logic employed
    in any recognised objective  analysis: - correlation does not imply
    causation.  A
    mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
    also be aware,
    a questionable cause logical fallacy.   No doubt you will, 
therefore,

    rigorously
    address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
    Martyn Hodgson
__

    From: Ido Shdaimah 
    To: lutelist Net 
    Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
    Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
  Dear Tristan,
  The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
  In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on 
exact

  points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras.
    The
  maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of
  them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used 
for each

  Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
    with
  in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
  Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India 
during the

  mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
  I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if 
Raags

  and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
  probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
  treatises.
  You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a 
deep

  musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE
  direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting 
here
  that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of 
them.

  This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
  knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger 
contact.

  Even these days 

[LUTE] Re: Things you didn't know you should worry about

[Dan Winheld]

Loose lips sink lutes. Or flutes. What's the difference- my old guitar 
teacher used to tell me to keep my mouth closed!

Dan


On 7/10/2018 1:07 PM, l...@reasonablefax.com wrote:

"Yamaha Lip Plate Patch

"The Yamaha Lip Plate Patch prevents the lips of the performer from slipping during 
a lute performance. Package contains 15 patches."

https://www.flutespecialists.com/product/yamaha-lip-plate-patch/

-Anne Burns



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[LUTE] Ifshin Winheld Duo presents Renaissance Lute Duets & Solos Thursday June 7, 2pm, The Musical Offering

[Dan Winheld]

   Take a Musical Offering break!
   Enjoy artisanal café fare and lute music of the Renaissance, performed
   by Dan Winheld and Leslie Ifshin.

   IFSHIN WINHELD DUO

   Lute Duets, Lute Solos: Music by Francesco, Terzi, and Dowland

   [cid:part1.A6590B5A.41BD0193@lmi.net]
   Leslie Ifshin & Dan Winheld, Renaissance lute
   Thursday, June 7, 2:00 PM

   THE MUSICAL OFFERING CAFÉ-BISTRO
   2430 Bancroft Way, Berkeley
   $15 suggested donation (benefit for The Musical Offering)



   --


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[LUTE] Re: Heres Paternus

[Dan Winheld]

Oh yes, one of Holborne's finest Pavans. Played if for years. Never 
figured out that title, though- "Dad's home!" is a good start..  ;-)


D

On 5/30/2018 9:21 AM, Bernd Haegemann wrote:

Dear all,

a beautiful pavan by Anthony Holborne. One variant is in the Varietie 
of Lute Lessons.


Is there an explanation of the title?
Kind regards
Bernd

---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus




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[LUTE] Re: Indian luthier

[Dan Winheld]

Excellent! Thank you, Tristan.

On 5/8/2018 10:49 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

Thanks Mark,

you're welcome.

As for your question - there is probably a reason why you have to 
study for years to make Indian music.

I have learned a lot during my research, but it is a vast topic...

Making mashups - regardless of Indian influence on Europe - has helped 
me quite a lot in understanding how Ragas work.


Here's some basic things:
- a Raga is not merely a scale (that would be "thaat")
- a Raga is not a composition (you can improvise on it)

So what is it? There we have a connection to European music:
What is a Ciacona? What is a Passacaglia?
It is not merely a bass or harmonic pattern, nor is it a composition.

A Raga is a melodic pattern that is embellished within the cycle of a 
beat pattern (Taal or Tala).
As I understand so far, this really works like improvising on a hidden 
ostinato, bringing out the important notes while improvising in between.

Each Raga also has a significant phrase which establishes its identity.
Also, each Raga has a characteristic Up and Down scale - these can be 
different, and there sometimes are "vakra" movements, that is zig-zag 
(think of late 16th century diminutions in England).
In certain cases more than 7 notes can be used. On C, it is mostly the 
4th that can be pure in the downscale, but augmented in the upscale, 
also the Seventh can be made flat in descent in some ragas.


A Raga has a main note and a consonant to the main note (4th or 5th), 
and also notes that are avoided.

The drone is sometimes also the main note.
Even if the scales of two Ragas are the same, they can be 
fundamentally different due to their main notes.

For example, Raga Yaman is in the Kalyan thaat (Lydian), so if "sa" (ut)
is on C, the main notes are B and E, bringing shades of e minor into 
the Raga though the drone is on C. The Yaman melodic structure is thus 
organised to enhance something like a C major/e minor mood.
It seems that the structures are basically emerging from the mode and 
main notes from a part of a harmonic series.
That is why they capture certain moods and colors to perfection (also 
a reason why many people exploited this for pop music).


Here's one rendering of Tilak Kamod that really makes things clear, 
because its recurring theme resembles the familiar "Branle de 
Bourgogne" by Gervaise (I don't claim any connection other than deep 
rooted cultural heritage - Tilak Kamod is said to have originated from 
folk music)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtoMZwMtpe4

Notice how the mood is established in a free improvisation without 
pulse, making clear which are the important relations of the main 
notes to the melodic structure, then in gradually increasing tempi the 
best ideas are sought, without leaving the exact framework.
Notice how the Fourth is used like it were a suspension note to the 
Third. The main notes are first and fifth of the scale. The seventh is 
avoided. The "C" - "G" jump is often used.
Trying to guess certain phrases and their would be "key" in relation 
to the Raga seems a good idea to grasp the main features.



Now compare this to Alhaiya Bilawal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77vtFARtAso

It uses the same mode, yet uses mostly the upper tetrachord. Main 
notes are "B" and "E", B is flat in downscale (like in late 16th 
century diminutions). This is a different mood.


It is interesting how 16th century theoreticians in Europe start 
building databases of modes not only describing their scale, but also 
giving voice leading patterns associated with the specific mode.


This is actually what is done to describe Ragas in literature today 
(and as I understand also in Indian historical music literature), this 
parallel might help to understand.


I hope this is of some help - I must admit though, it puzzles me how 
these musicians come up with such great renderings. As I said, decades 
of study are necessary - again, also found in lutes: it takes a while 
until you can pull off original yet true style diminutions on anything 
you touch.





Am 08.05.2018 um 17:48 schrieb Mark Seifert:

    Dear Tristan,
    This is great material, thanks.  Would it be possible to
    occasionally provide basic instruction on "Indian music for 
dummies?"
    Though I have in the past spent time studying Indian literature, 
even

    Mughal poetry, I never attempted to understand Indian music as I was
    not even well versed in Western music.  Are there some basics 
that can

    be addressed that might aid opening minds to an undoubtedly vast and
    ancient tradition?
    I just got through watching lectures on the British Raj in India
    describing the relentless wealth extraction, brutal suppression, and
    market-based agricultural austerity that led to starvation of 
millions
    especially in Bengal and the Ganges valley in 1872-79, WWI, 
between the
    war, and during WWII.  In this new age of oligarchy and 
corruption, we

    have a lot to learn 

[LUTE] And another LH thumb wrinkle

[Dan Winheld]

I suggest that you full screen this vertically compressed video, and 
look closely at Bahauddin's left thumb. He un-opposes it to play in the 
same plane as his other fingers; it is remarkably trained to work in 
complete freedom and harmonious conjunction with them,  no tying other 
fingers down at all.

Dan

On 5/2/2018 6:36 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
Thank you Arto! That is really fine, my wife and I just listened to it 
and bookmarked it. Lovely music indeed.


I think for our other friend who likes to find all those Hindustani 
and other Indian Raga based progenitors of English virginal music that 
we post another challenge: reverse engineer this performance of 
Bahauddin Dagar playing the Raga Bhairav on the Rudra Veena (or Vina) 
to any European Renaissance composition.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbVI6O21Sc=RDj5iO7Ee6gyE=1

More searching indeed! But why not just enjoy each music as it is, for 
whatever it's worth on its own terms; and leave your mind at peace.

Lute is still very cool- although we do wander astray now and then.

Dan

Hi lutenists,

here is a microtonal piece by one of my composer friends. This piece 
probably cannot be combined to to any Indian raga based performance? 
But who knows? He who searches, will find...


https://soundcloud.com/juhani-nuorvala/kaiho

Anyhow, I like this piece! No lutes ther, just a piano, but the 
tuning... only one octave and 97 piano keys!


Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Piece that has no connection to Indian music ;-)

[Dan Winheld]

Thank you Arto! That is really fine, my wife and I just listened to it 
and bookmarked it. Lovely music indeed.


I think for our other friend who likes to find all those Hindustani and 
other Indian Raga based progenitors of English virginal music that we 
post another challenge: reverse engineer this performance of Bahauddin 
Dagar playing the Raga Bhairav on the Rudra Veena (or Vina) to any 
European Renaissance composition.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbVI6O21Sc=RDj5iO7Ee6gyE=1

More searching indeed! But why not just enjoy each music as it is, for 
whatever it's worth on its own terms; and leave your mind at peace.

Lute is still very cool- although we do wander astray now and then.

Dan

Hi lutenists,

here is a microtonal piece by one of my composer friends. This piece 
probably cannot be combined to to any Indian raga based performance? 
But who knows? He who searches, will find...


https://soundcloud.com/juhani-nuorvala/kaiho

Anyhow, I like this piece! No lutes ther, just a piano, but the 
tuning... only one octave and 97 piano keys!


Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Left thumb on the sixth.

[Dan Winheld]

"...middle finger on c6, the ring finger on c4, the little finger on d3 and the 
index finger on c1."

No good either. No graceful way to resolve to the b4 without losing the 
c1. Two ways that have worked for me;


1.  Tuck the index finger on c4, (Squeezing in under the middle finger 
on c6) ring finger on c1, little finger on d3. Index easily slides back 
to resolve on b4.


2. Distal segment partial barre of the middle finger; covers both c6 and 
c4- allow barre to bend, releasing c4 to resolve to the b4 fingered with 
the index finger, while keeping middle finger tip on the c6 only, 
maintaining the bass line. (Other fingers same as above).


Number 2 was somewhat harder to master, but really is now almost easy. 
Much more doable for this voicing in the more restricted, higher 
positions. Like the LH thumb fingerings, partial barres with fingers 
other than index are also foreign to Classical Guitar training- at least 
in my youth. VERY much a Jazz & other styles technique.


I tried the left thumb on c6, using my narrow necked steel string 
guitar- but, having no personal background in this technique, found it 
utterly impossible. As mentioned, pulls the other fingers out of easy 
action.


Not to downgrade the technique itself, I'm just not trained/practiced in 
it; and none of my lutes- even the 6 course- are quite suitable. The 
"St. Louis Tickle" in Dave van Ronk's guitar adaptation, is a technical 
monster not dissimilar to the chord voicings of Melchior Newsidler.  I 
made it work on my 6 course lute, using my normal left hand fingering, 
but found out that Dave van Ronk could easily finger not only the 6th 
string of his guitar with his left thumb, but also the 5th!  Different 
hands, different instruments, different capabilities-


DW

On 4/28/2018 1:07 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote:

middle finger on c6, the ring finger on c4, the little finger on d3 and the 
index finger on c1





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[LUTE] Re: Barring tips

[Dan Winheld]

Don't neglect bar hopping. Start barring the 3rd position/fret, move up 
to 5th, back to 1st or 2nd, up to 6th and/or 7th; then supplement 1st 
finger only (in order to learn to make all strings sound clearly) with 
chord formations and scale patterns.


 Advanced training- take any very simple piece that is in open 
string/1st position and play the whole thing anywhere up the neck with 3 
fingers, your 1st finger bar being the "nut".


Then move on to pub crawling.

Dan

On 4/21/2018 12:51 PM, Leonard Williams wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions!  It looks like a major factor in
getting this down is - work on it!  Hopefully it will take less time
than tuning has.

Chris--I'm not sure about all that water before barring:  I like to
get there thirsty. And I'm generally good about tipping after barring,
espcially if I'm tipsy.

Thanks all,

Leonard

--


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[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Dan Winheld]

And, like the Zen masters (wordless direct transmission) Rumi used a 
whole buncha words over the years to say that! :-D



On 4/12/2018 8:45 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

Dimitri,
I think you nailed it. Thanks a lot!

Jurgen


​--

“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 12 April 2018 4:10 AM,  wrote:


​​

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means

simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).

It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of

trees), but I would not translate it literally.

There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:

"Silva de varios romances"

"Silva de poesía"

etc.

So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry

-Original Message-

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of

Jurgen Frenz

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM

To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of

Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the

source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and

nothing when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words

differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)

today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen


-

"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi

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[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

[Dan Winheld]

   "Who is Silvia? what is she,
   That all our swains commend her?
   Holy, fair, and wise is she;
   The heaven such grace did lend her,
   That she might admirèd be. "
   On 4/11/2018 7:56 AM, [1]b...@symbol4.de wrote:

= selva amorosa
Forest of love?

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11 April 2018 um 16:42:07 Uhr
Von: Rainer [2]
An: "Lute net" [3]
Betreff: [LUTE] Selua amorosa
Dear lute netters,

in Nobilita di Dame there is (page 361) a piece called "Selua Amorosa" (a concor
dance for Allemande Fortune helas...)

Does anybody know what the title means?

Rainer



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References

   1. mailto:b...@symbol4.de
   2. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: India News - Carnatic Music does the trick.

[Dan Winheld]

   Feel free to comment. :)
   This track was not found. Maybe it has been removed
   No comment!
   On 3/29/2018 5:58 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

 Let's try Bull XII again - this time with Carnatic Music.
 And lo and behold, it's all clear now.
 (Though I think Bull used the Hindustani version, it's just that
 they don't make it like that anymore, contrary to Carnatic music)
 [1]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/john-bull-fantasy-xii-
 ragam-thanam-pallavi-kharaharapriyarasikapriya-carnatic-raga-fellows
 Feel free to comment. :)
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References

   1. 
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/john-bull-fantasy-xii-ragam-thanam-pallavi-kharaharapriyarasikapriya-carnatic-raga-fellows
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Naming of things was Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Dan Winheld]

   Martyn-
   Excellent summing up, and kudos to all heroes attempting to put some
   order into the unstable chaos of nomenclature; a task more hopeless
   than herding ADD kittens on a moving carousel.
   -But beware of the Rene Magritte trap: "Ceci n'est pas une pipe- the
   treachery of images".  And of course actual objects!
   On 3/21/2018 6:22 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Dear Markus and Stephan,
   I very well understand your position, and that of a few researchers, of
   wishing to categorise instruments by associating a specific modern name
   based on just one out of a selection of earlier names - it certainly
   simplifies things and may appear to make things easier for the general
   public. A bit like calling all plucked keyboard instruments 'spinets',
   which was the British dealer practice for many years up to the mid-
   twentieth century and can still lead to confusion today when trying to
   trace earlier catalogued instruments (eg a spinet by a maker not known
   for making such instruments proved very elusive...).
   The problem arises when the practice becomes widespread outside
   the cognoscenti and quite innocently leads to supposed statements of
   fact which then become part of the modern mythology which is in turn,
   sadly, taken up by others. Such as statements like: 'callichons were
   the larger instrument, were tuned in D; mandoras were smaller and tuned
   in E;  or, it's something to do with the type of peghead, or, etc.
   .'
   I think it generally pays to be prudent in these organological matters
   and try to be as precise as possible and so protect against unintended
   consequences. Otherwise someone less knowledgeable than you might come
   across, say, Bresianello's works for 'Gallichone solo' and quite
   understandably  assume that they are meant for the large continuo
   instrument in a nominal A tuning... And other less obvious
   examples.
   If one employs a compound name, such as gallichon/mandora (or g/m for
   short), to describe such instruments then any danger of unintentionally
   misleading is easily avoided and the nineteenth century museum
   curators' obsession with the precise naming and categorisation of
   everything isn't prejudicially adopted.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Markus Lutz [1]
   To: [2]"'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'" [3]
   Sent: Wednesday, 21 March 2018, 9:34
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
   Dear Martyn, dear Stephan,
   as far as I can see, the categorizing into 3 different groups is common
   sense for all the relevant Mandora researchers (Dieter Kirsch, Andreas
   Schlegel, Pietro Prosser), but the names are discussed still.
   The third of these groups is the instrument I called Mandora, which
   includes the instruments tuned to e and d, that had been used as solo
   instruments or in obligato ensemble contexts. (Andreas Schlegel even
   proposed to differentiate between them, but I would not go that far).
   Normally it is tuned like a 5-stringed guitar with some additional bass
   strings, but normally double-choired except the chantarelle
   The second ones are even deeper tuned and only used for bass continuo,
   especially single lines but sometimes also chords ... (also
   double-choirs)
   The first group, we seem to concur.
   And yes, Martyn, the historical names are really confusing!
   Best regards
   Markus
   Am 21.03.2018 um 10:16 schrieb Stephan Olbertz:
   > I think that was also Pietro Prosser's objection on the Eichstädt
   symposium. But do we really have to call instruments by all names it
   ever had? I can fully understand the attempt to "bring it into line",
   as Andi Schlegel had put it.
   > Stephan
   >
   > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
   > Von: [[4]1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[[5]2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson
   > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. März 2018 09:48
   > An: [[6]3]mar...@gmlutz.de; '[[7]4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'
   > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
   >
   >We need to very careful of making a false, if tempting,
   differentiation
   >between the callichon/gallichon (and numerous cognates) and the
   >mandora: these generally seem to be one and the same instrument
   (some
   >sources clearly say so). Neither can we unequivocally state that
   the
   >later eighteenth century nominal E tuning for the first course
   (rather
   >than the earlier D) of the c/m is linked to a specific name such
   as
   >mandora.
   >What can be said is that the large, often single stringed,
   continuo
   >instrument tuned in nominal A (or rarer B) with a string length in
   the
   >high 90 cm was generally referred to as callichon (calchedon,
   galizona,
   >etc) and not mandora.
   >MH
   >
   

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Dan Winheld]

David--
Very glad to hear that you also have both E and E-flat diapasons. I 
ended up going to this arrangement myself within a month or two after 
getting my own archlute. Far too many occasions either calling for 
instant retuning, (or even both notes in the same piece)- and then you 
have to take the lute part of your archthing off your lap and go for a 
hike to the upper pegbox! (Long walk up there- do the tuning, rest a 
spell at the summit, then climb down carefully- "OK everyone, we can go 
on to the 2nd movement now!"). Very happy to sacrifice the very low FF; 
my small, solo oriented archlute can't quite growl out that low note 
anyway. The thumb, however, does require some extra care and training! 
Accidents can happen.

Dan


On 3/19/2018 7:12 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

I do play the bass line along, it's in the part after all. I used to do
it on an archlute with F tuned to E (fingered), and E tuned to Eb
(dispasson), but for many years now I have my archlutes with an E and
Eb diapasson. Comes in handy for a lot of other continuo lines as well,
not only in the St John.
David
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 at 15:08, Eloy Cruz <[1]eloyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Dear list
  Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the
  bass line along with the obligato part? It's a little awkward as
  long as it includes both f and f # and e and e flat.
  Best regards
  eloy
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--

***
David van Ooijen
[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[4]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

--

References

1. mailto:eloyc...@gmail.com
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Dan Winheld]

On 3/16/2018 9:26 AM, WALSH STUART wrote:
If there were such a person - who would only, ever,  play centuries' 
old music would it be enough to say that this choice was the harmless 
choice of a free being? 


Yes indeed. It would be quite enough! Most of my students over the years 
have been just such people. I have also, for years at a stretch, also 
played only old lute music on my aging lutes.
As far as I know at this time it still considered a "harmless choice of 
a free being". So far there have occurred no arrests, indictments, 
censures, citations, boycotts; or any other civil, legal, or criminal 
repercussions due to such proclivities. Of course, Bob Mueller is not 
yet finished with his extensive investigations so this is not written in 
stone.
"And flies away, and flies away from aged things" -Apologies to Robert 
Johnson. :-)




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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Dan Winheld]

"Claude Debussy & Erik Satie - 4 Pieces for Lute"
Arranged and Intabulated by Jonathan Rubin
Tree-Edition, Munchen - Tablature Copied by Albert Reymann
Copyright 1986


On 3/15/2018 6:24 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
The publication that has the Debussy does, in fact, have a couple of 
Satie's Gymnopedes..
I'll post the details if I can find it.  Apparently some of this work 
has already been going on, if a bit under the radar.

Dan

On 3/15/2018 5:22 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Let's collect some ideas what late 19th/20th century music to play on 
the lute :)


I suppose many pieces of Erik Satie would sound great on the lute.

Ravel's "La Vallée des Cloches" is probably nice for Baroque lute, 
though you would need an expert to transcribe this adequately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnTmtjO6IKI

This song deserves a lute version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih6UCcIvE18




Am 16.03.2018 um 00:07 schrieb Dan Winheld:
I TOTALLY support that- also, maybe the occasional transcription of 
a post-l historical lute era piece? Obviously some guitar stuff, but 
perhaps others. I have an archlute version of Debussy's "Lafille aux 
cheveux de lin" made years ago, I forget which lutenist. I made my 
own transcription of Piazzolla's "Triston". I'm sure there are a few 
more worthy things that could fit on a page or two, now and then...


  "Lutemags devote 1 page or half a page in their issue to contemporary
    lute music and related topics ?"

Dan

On 3/15/2018 3:38 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

That has been my argument for the last 20 years.
RT

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2018, at 1:38 PM, Ron Andrico<praelu...@hotmail.com>  
wrote:


   The very idea of not composing for the lute is an anachronism.

   RA



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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Dan Winheld]

The publication that has the Debussy does, in fact, have a couple of 
Satie's Gymnopedes..
I'll post the details if I can find it.  Apparently some of this work 
has already been going on, if a bit under the radar.

Dan

On 3/15/2018 5:22 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Let's collect some ideas what late 19th/20th century music to play on 
the lute :)


I suppose many pieces of Erik Satie would sound great on the lute.

Ravel's "La Vallée des Cloches" is probably nice for Baroque lute, 
though you would need an expert to transcribe this adequately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnTmtjO6IKI

This song deserves a lute version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih6UCcIvE18




Am 16.03.2018 um 00:07 schrieb Dan Winheld:
I TOTALLY support that- also, maybe the occasional transcription of a 
post-l historical lute era piece? Obviously some guitar stuff, but 
perhaps others. I have an archlute version of Debussy's "Lafille aux 
cheveux de lin" made years ago, I forget which lutenist. I made my 
own transcription of Piazzolla's "Triston". I'm sure there are a few 
more worthy things that could fit on a page or two, now and then...


  "Lutemags devote 1 page or half a page in their issue to contemporary
    lute music and related topics ?"

Dan

On 3/15/2018 3:38 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

That has been my argument for the last 20 years.
RT

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2018, at 1:38 PM, Ron Andrico<praelu...@hotmail.com>  
wrote:


   The very idea of not composing for the lute is an anachronism.

   RA



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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Dan Winheld]

   I TOTALLY support that- also, maybe the occasional transcription of a
   post-l historical lute era piece? Obviously some guitar stuff, but
   perhaps others. I have an archlute version of Debussy's "La fille aux
   cheveux de lin" made years ago, I forget which lutenist. I made my own
   transcription of Piazzolla's "Triston". I'm sure there are a few more
   worthy things that could fit on a page or two, now and then...
 "Lutemags devote 1 page or half a page in their issue to contemporary
   lute music and related topics ?"

   Dan
   On 3/15/2018 3:38 PM, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

That has been my argument for the last 20 years.
RT

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 15, 2018, at 1:38 PM, Ron Andrico [2] wrote:

  The very idea of not composing for the lute is an anachronism.

  RA



To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Dan Winheld]

   Gilbert;
   I am in full agreement with David van Ooijen and  Joseph Mayes (his
   response copied & pasted below David's for continuity/clarity.
   You obviously do not know me- not your fault, of course, because unlike
   David- a most out-there & publicly active musician I am now pretty much
   retired & private.
   For your information, I own 5 lutes, one vihuela, a steel string and a
   nylon string guitar. In addition to the usual lute music I play the
   music of Astor Piazzolla, Leo Brouwer, and Heitor Villa-Lobos on my
   lutes. I've even done Tarrega's famous tremolo piece "Recuerdas de la
   Alhambra" on my 8 course- STRICTLY for practice/technical studies only.
   For Karmic Reversal purposes I use my Dean 7-string flat-top acoustic
   steel-string guitar exclusively as a fake "Orpharion" -only lute and
   vihuela music on that- it kicks ass!
   " Why are lots of lutenists looking down at lutenists who are trying to
   do something else with the instrument, with other techniques, new
   approaches?"
   Again, for your info, I am fluent not only in "Thumb Under" in various
   sub-variations, I also play Thumb Out with no little finger support
   (late Renn, Baroque, etc. Not the 6 course!). I hear that some
   guitarists, mainly 20th & 21st century ones, also play this way.
   I once played the David Van Ronk version of the St. Louis Tickle on
   Renaissance lute, (Thumb under) at an early LSA lute seminar way back
   in the late 1970's.
   I think you can relax now. Much, much worse things to worry about..:-)
   Dan

   On 3/14/2018 2:56 PM, David van Ooijen wrote:

   Could part of the answer be that you see/hear/know a limited set of
   lute players, a set that tends to gather in this forum, and don't
   see/hear the more broadly minded lute players in this world? Or perhaps
   does this forum tend to talk mostly about hipp lute playing, even
   though many of its members are more broadly oriented? I
   meet/see/talk/know many lute players who play a lot of other music
   besides the canon composed by our beloved and revered Old Ones. I don't
   think playing one kind of music excludes playing another kind of music,
   and I see many colleagues, professional and amateur, although perhaps
   more amongst the first than among the latter, who share my point of
   view. I think the lute playing world exhibits a wide variety of music
   styles that happily coexist.
   I play pop, jazz, contemporary, folk and early music on any of my
   instruments, lutes included, and I know many of my professional
   colleagues who do the same in their concerts, CD recordings and
   privately. It's even a kind of a current fashion, a gimmick or selling
   point: cross-over programmes.
   David


Hello Mr. Isbin

I can only answer your questions from my own perspective - naturally. I have tri
ed to do so below:

From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [2] on behalf of G
ilbert Isbin [3]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 5:33 PM
To: LS LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Some questions

   Why is the lute world ruled by early music ? Because the lute is considered a
n "early instrument" most if not all of the players were attracted to the instru
ment through its music.
   Why are 90 or 95% of the lutenists afraid to play new music for the
   lute ? This is a poorly stated question, as in, "Are you still on parole?" Ra
ther than ask why lutenists are "afraid" why not ask why they prefer music other
 than new music. For me, I like the style of the older music and despise the pre
tentiousness of some new music.
   Why did guitarists, recorder players, cellists, pianists , oud players
   etc. took the challenge to play today's music and the lute world almost
   - with a very few exeptions - doesn't ? See above response.
   Why are luteplayers afraid to play something different ? Have you stopped bea
ting your mother?
   Why do lutenists think the lute must be played with a very specific
   approach ? Why do contemporary composers think "pretty" is a pejorative?
   Why are lots of lutenists looking down at lutenists who are trying to
   do something else with the instrument, with other techniques, new
   approaches? Again - poorly stated question. You ask why something that may or
 may not be true is true. Like my asking why all composers insist on writing for
 de-tuned mandolin?
  What is the future for the lute music if it stays to be that dogmatic ? Good q
uestion.
   I guess Dowland and all the other wonderful lutes composers would have
   a good laugh with the today's lute world approach to the instrument. If Dowla
nd et al heard new music I believe they would choose another line of work.

 On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 at 22:34, Gilbert Isbin
   [4]<[1]gilbert.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why is the lute world ruled by early music ?
Why are 90 or 95% of the lutenists afraid to play new music for
 the
lute ?
Why did 

[LUTE] Re: How to tighten frets

[Dan Winheld]

The frets should work out- but I keep burning my feet trying to tighten 
the damn shoelaces...:-(.

Dan
On 3/11/2018 4:03 PM, Mayes, Joseph wrote:

Wow!! Thank you Sterling!

This will save on fret-gut and that's great! But think of what I will save on 
shoes!!!

Joseph Mayes

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of spiffys84121 

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 7:20 AM
To: Lute list
Subject: [LUTE] How to tighten frets

I was going to make a video, but I think a few words will suffice.

To tighten a loose fret, move the fret up to a very loose position
until you can push one end of the fret through the knot. Pull it as
tight as it will go just as you did when originally tying the fret.
Usually you will get only a few millimeters of extra. Now, burn the
existing bit with a soldering iron or match or flame-thrower or however
you make heat. Put the fret in position. Now you'll never have to use
ridiculously lame shims under your frets again.

The very first time I put frets on a lute as a kid I said-"oh, you can
tighten them if they get loose." And ever since then I've wondered why
people use shims, or even the completely baffling practice of replacing
loose frets. "Do they," I wondered "replace their shoe laces every time
they tie their shoes?"

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I think we can end this strange shims and fret
replacing practice in our lifetimes.

Sterling

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


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[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Dan Winheld]

What is string oil?
I remember liquid vitamin E and almond oil being recommended many years 
ago, but never heard of actual "string oil".

Dan

On 3/10/2018 6:25 AM, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

‎Dear list,

I don't use water, but I wipe a drop of string oil over each length of fret gut 
I am going to put on the neck of whatever lute or guitar instrument‎.

Greetings,

Joachim

Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
   Originalnachricht
Von: fournierbru
Gesendet: Samstag, 10. März 2018 15:00
An: l...@reasonablefax.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets


I actually never thought of it...but it is a good idea as they would
tighten up upon drying.

Bruno

Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au
pays.

 Message d'origine 
De : l...@reasonablefax.com
Date : 18-03-09 3:57 PM (GMT-05:00)
À : howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Loose frets

Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I
dip my fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let
them sit a little to soften just a tad. If needed,  I rewet  the part
that is going to make the knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret
on below where it is going to end up, and allow it to dry before
pulling into position.
I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the
wetting to be useful.
-Anne Burns
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner  wrote:
> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
>
>  My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are
>   metal.
I want to know how you tied them on in the first place.  You must have
really strong fingers.
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[LUTE] Re: John Dowland Fantasy 7 - Raga Bilawal.

[Dan Winheld]

   I enjoyed them as well-
   My unsent message was going to posit the elegant segue of "Oblivion" by
   Astor Piazzolla directly followed by Dowland's "Lachrimae", in the
   Galliard version. Same key, a lot of identical harmonic and melodic
   phrasing coincidences.  OR IS IT COINCIDENCE -lotsa fun in any
   case. Don't mean a thing even if it's got all that swing.
   Dan
   On 2/21/2018 12:41 PM, David van Ooijen wrote:

   I enjoyed both messages.
   David
   On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 at 21:41, howard posner [1]<[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
   wrote:

 Oops.   My apologies for that last message, which I did not intend
 to send.It was in my Drafts folder, and I hit the send button
 instead of delete because I lack the attention span necessary for
 email.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [[3]3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. [4]mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. [6]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. [7]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/



   --

References

   1. mailto:[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. mailto:3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Broeken nylgut string

[Dan Winheld]

Wim-

No clue as to cause of the breakage until you supply essential information:

1. String length- nut to bridge?
2. A= ? 440, 415, 465, 392 - other?

While stronger than equivalent gut, nylgut (especially the 1st 
generation, dead white stuff) is much more delicate than equivalent 
tension nylon or KF. The later, more yellow New Nylgut is stronger but 
still nowhere near as tough as the other synthetics.


First thing in any case, get a good magnifier and check the nut and 
bridge for any irregularities that could snag the string, any rough 
spots that could abrade the string, A sharp "V" shape groove, too deeply 
cut in the nut is a fine way to jam a string as you fruitlessly try to 
wind it up to pitch. Take care of that stuff first, then assess the 
other factors.


Dan

On 2/18/2018 11:27 PM, Wim Loos wrote:

Dear luteplayers,
Within a relative short periode, two times my g' (0.44mm nylgut) on a
7-c Renaissance lute has broken. Sounds this familliar to you? What do
you suggest as an alternative.
Wim Loos

--


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[LUTE] Re: Capirola's ornaments

[Dan Winheld]

Martin,

I've always ornamented all Renaissance lute music. (No reason in the 
world not to. It's what live musicians do.) Pretty much the way you do, 
too. And I would have played Capirola's music with ornaments even if he 
hadn't been so considerate and thorough as to supply them- of course 
easier to do in MS. vs. printing). You are sounding quite good, as always!


Thanks for the comprehensive blog page entry too...

Dan

On 2/3/2018 3:20 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Hi All,

Just to let you know that (after a longish gap, sorry) the latest blog 
can be found in the usual place: http://luteshop.co.uk/blog/


I hope you find it interesting.

Martin


---
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[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Dan Winheld]

They are legalizing Marijuana all over the place, come to California if 
you want to get stoned! (I gave up that little distraction decades ago, 
but I also much prefer Ballard). :-D

Dan

On 2/1/2018 5:15 PM, Susan Sandman wrote:

Stoning is medieval, appropriate only hundreds of years before...
Susan
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 6:46 PM Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

  Do I get stoned by the community if I say that I like Ballard more
  anyway? :)
  Am 02.02.2018 um 00:36 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier:
  > En guise de conclusion ;-) :
  > If you look at the chronological development of Ennemond's career
  and life, his "his high reputation" as a baroque lute super hero
  simply doesn't hold.
  > So there must be other material around to explain this phenomenon.
  > Cherbury is only one piece in the puzzle and certainly not the
  most interesting one concerning old Ennemond! There is a lot more to
  see and play in at least a dozen other ms. and of course his
  production in accords nouveaux is another essential aspect of the
  problem.
  >
  > Merci de votre intérêt et la "chasse" continue... :-)!
  > Best,
  > Jean-Marie
  >
  >
  >> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 22:53, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> a écrit
  :
  >>
  >> PS.
  >> And of course, I meant to say "you and Jean-Marie" SORRY! :D
  >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:27 PM, G. C.
  <[1][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
  >>
  >>  Great that you feel that way, Ron. I'm just saying, that
  >>   comparing to
  >>  what there is of real quality music for the lute out
  there, and
  >>   trying
  >>  to keep in mind, the "high reputation" of Ennemond
  Gaultier, I'm
  >>   sadly,
  >>  not at all impressed by these alleged simple courantes
  and voltas
  >>   in
  >>  Cherbury. Whatever his fame might otherwise be,
  these little
  >>   pieces
  >>  just don't cut the mustard IMHO.
  >>  But if you, as a renowned player, recognise Ennemond's
  style in
  >>   those
  >>  little ditties, I'm definitely not going to argue. :)
  >>  Best
  >>  G
  >>  On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Ron Andrico
  >>   <[1][2][4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
  >>  wrote:
  >>   G, I think you may have misunderstood my message.
I was
  >>   not
  >>saying
  >>   there were concordances in the CNRS edition of
  Vieux
  >>   Gaultier
  >>that
  >>   definitely linked pieces in Herbert to the proper
  Gaultier.
  >>  I
  >>said
  >>   that one could easily identify the style of music
  in that
  >>   edition
  >>and
  >>   compare to the sparse style of the Herbert pieces
  attributed
  >>   to
  >>   Gaultier. From a player's point of view, I feel
  a very
  >>   strong
  >>   similarity, and one only has to supply ornamented
  repeats in
  >>   the
  >>proper
  >>   style to flesh out the bones of these pieces and
  make some
  >>   very
  >>fine
  >>   music.
  >>   RA
  >>  --
  >>   References
  >>  1. mailto:[3][5]praelu...@hotmail.com
  >>   To get on or off this list see list information at
  >>
  [4][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >>
  >> --
  >>
  >> References
  >>
  >> 1. mailto:[7]kalei...@gmail.com
  >> 2. mailto:[8]praelu...@hotmail.com
  >> 3. mailto:[9]praelu...@hotmail.com
  >> 4. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  >

--

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
4. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
5. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
8. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
9. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Dan Winheld]

I HEARTILY second Ron's sentiments. And yes, I got stuff on the hard 
drive going nowhere. Last big download project was Miguel de Fuenllana's 
magnificent opus- well over 300 pages- I spent literally hundreds of 
dollars on all the paper and ink cartridges necessary for this, and then 
had to collate & get it all bound- three volumes! (Ironic note, I used 
to do offset lithography for a living).


I really, really miss good old "Books of Music" - yes, I want the 
Herb-Cherb! (and a few others)


Dan

On 1/31/2018 8:17 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Dear Chris:

I'm writing in response to Hector's lute list posting on the subject of
the Herbert facsimile under consideration for publication.  I would buy
the Lute Society facsimile edition, and would actively encourage others
to do so as well.

There is a certain misconception that, because pdf facsimiles may be
readily available from libraries, there is no longer a need for, nor a
demand for, good quality printed editions of lute music.  I have
observed that while lute players love to collect music, and also love
to get free music, there is simply no replacement for a well-designed
printed edition that includes essays on historical background and
concordances.

I'll wager that most downloaded facsimile editions are simply archived
on hard drives and remain there unused.  And as much as technophiles
love to tout the latest i-pad gizmos, nothing can replace real paper
music on a music stand.  I'm not the only person who has observed that
information from a printed page is mentally processed much more
effectively than information on a backlit screen.

Yes, please do what is necessary to advance the Herbert facsimile
project.

Best wishes,

Ron
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of Hector Sequera 
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:55 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

Good afternoon,
In reply to the original question, the Lute Society just sent an email
to its membership to assess whether or not there is any interest on
this. Your reply to the message below may determine the fate of this
project. If interested simply reply to the secretary at:
lute...@aol.com <[1]mailto:lute...@aol.com>
Here is the original message sent this morning to the LS list:
———————————————
1. HERBERT OF CHERBURY LUTE BOOK FACSIMILE – WOULD YOU BUY A COPY?

We have been talking for some years about producing a facsimile of the
Herbert of Cherbury lute book, the last great English renaissance lute
manuscript, with music from 6 to 10 courses, but there have been
delays.

We don’t need prepayments or subscriptions but we need to have some
idea of demand – especially as sales of facsimiles are less than they
were, with some much available online.

If a facsimile of the Herbert of Cherbury lute book were similar in
format to our beautiful Dd.2.11 facsimile, and similar in price - £50
to members - WOULD YOU VERY PROBABLY BUY A COPY? PLEASE REPLY TO THIS
EMAIL TO LET US KNOW!

And let us know if this would be too expensive, but you would buy
simple, say, black and white reproduction, for, say £25.
————————————————
Best wishes,
Hector





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[LUTE] Re: Gilded Roses

[Dan Winheld]

So lily gilders weren't the only game in town, then?

On 1/30/2018 3:10 PM, Alexander Batov wrote:

I do indeed.

On 30/01/2018 16:52, howard posner wrote:
On Jan 30, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Alexander Batov 
 wrote:


My only explanation for this is that lute soundboards (with roses 
already cut in them), as well as separate roses of various 
complexity and designs would be made in great numbers by dedicated 
guilds of craftsmen, not lute and / or guitar makers themselves.

Do you mean there was a separate lute-rose guild?





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[LUTE] Re: tone colour echo

[Dan Winheld]

We are indeed talking about two unrelated pieces. Wolfgang was not 
talking about the two (or three?) Recercari "Senza Canto" in the D-Mbs 
Mus. 266 -but instead one of the tone colour echo examples:


"a nice example for tone colour (echo) in higher register is:
   Che debo far che me consegli amore
   BSB Mus. ms. 267 No. 32"

Whereas I was referencing Tristan van Neumann's post:

"Ms. 266 has a really crazy Aquila ricercar, No 25 (f. 24v), which 
starts at the lowest course and goes up to 7/h. It's also a senza canto 
ricercar.

Has anyone played this beast?... "

-Which I got from "The Lute Society Music Editions - The Collected Lute 
Music of Marco Dall'Aquila"; where it is piece no. 9.


-And to pile on a touch more potential confusion, Matthew Daillie then 
referenced one of the  other "Recercari senza canto" (a much shorter, 
but very beautiful one; can be found as no. 3a or 3b in the same book) 
played by Lukas Henning.


"Am 30.01.2018 um 20:10 schrieb Matthew Daillie:
    In his latest Memo video, Lukas Henning plays another Marco recercar
    'senza canto' and adds a few inventions of his own for a lute with
    several broken strings!
    [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6=g-Lzgk8N-yM
    Best,
    Matthew "

-Hope we are sorted out now. I'm also finding more "tone color echo" 
bits all over the place in Marco's works, and some more as well in Gorzanis.


You guys got me playing more early Renaissance music than I intended 
today; I WAS in the midst of a non-stop Baroque lute Weiss & Bach binge, 
and you've all ruined that! :-D

Dan

On 1/30/2018 12:53 PM, Rainer wrote:

Dear Dan,

You and Wolfgang seem to be talking about two different pieces.

Ms 267, No. 32 (page 50) does not fit your description.

Rainer

On 30.01.2018 19:56, Dan Winheld wrote:
SO glad to hear that someone else has discovered this wonderful 
bizarre masterpiece by Marco... I have been studying and practicing 
it for about a year, almost memorized. It is the ultimate 
"Recercar/fantasia senza il canto" ever written; surpassing all other 
pieces of this tiny subgenre; generated of course by the unfortunate 
frequency of chantarelle disintegration- usually mid-performance, 
esp. in the pre-nylon string days.


I highly recommend it; especially as a study piece. It's probably a 
lousy recital/concert piece unless you are playing for a small group 
of lute nerds. And, most importantly; if you try to play it on a lute 
with unison basses it will sound like crap. Really! A high quality 6 
(or 7) course, and the 8ves MUST include courses 4 and 5 as well as 
the other basses- and this piece really pops! Actual gut helps too, 
we want crisp enunciation of the notes as you fret up to 7 & 8 frets 
on the bass courses.


The only other piece of music in any category that I have heard that 
starts on the lowest bass notes and stays there for so long is 
Gorecki's Symphony #3 "Sorrowful Songs" -utterly different mood, 
though. Marco's is very upbeat, almost humorous.


Giacomo Gorzanis is another lute composer/player who repeated phrases 
changing only courses and positions for tone color reasons.


Dan

On 1/30/2018 8:27 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Ms. 266 has a really crazy Aquila ricercar, No 25 (f. 24v), which 
starts at the lowest course and goes up to 7/h. It's also a senza 
canto ricercar.

Has anyone played this beast?...



Am 30.01.2018 um 16:46 schrieb Wolfgang Wiehe:

    a nice example for tone colour (echo) in higher register is:
    Che debo far che me consegli amore
    BSB Mus. ms. 267 No. 32
    (Marco dall Aquila?)
    greetings
    Wolfgang

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0003/bsb00032067/images/index.h 

tml?id=00032067=79=193.174.98.30=%2F=150%25 



    p.s. I made a transcription in french Tab some years ago, if 
some one

    is interested




    Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Januar 2018 um 15:46 Uhr
    Von: "Joachim Lüdtke" <jo.lued...@t-online.de>
    An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Betreff: [LUTE] Re: tone colour echo
    Nor do I, but Brown records two later editions. It may be 
interesting
    (at least for someone who is fascinated by the music and the 
history of
    its editions) to compare the texts. Years ago I copied the 
piece from

    the CNRS edition, which should be based on the earliest known
    publication, that is on 1554[6]. If I wasn't out of my mind while
    copying the music, there are several measures where you would 
have to
    pick the final note in cadences from the octave string of the 
third
    course. Later I saw the piece in one of the later prints, and 
all this
    fine play with octave strings and resulting sonorities, which 
to me
    seemed so perfectly matched the way De Rippe intavolated the 
echos of
    the chanson, was edited out ... I have however never 
investigated much
    time into this, 

[LUTE] Re: tone colour echo

[Dan Winheld]

SO glad to hear that someone else has discovered this wonderful bizarre 
masterpiece by Marco... I have been studying and practicing it for about 
a year, almost memorized. It is the ultimate "Recercar/fantasia senza il 
canto" ever written; surpassing all other pieces of this tiny subgenre; 
generated of course by the unfortunate frequency of chantarelle 
disintegration- usually mid-performance, esp. in the pre-nylon string days.


I highly recommend it; especially as a study piece. It's probably a 
lousy recital/concert piece unless you are playing for a small group of 
lute nerds. And, most importantly; if you try to play it on a lute with 
unison basses it will sound like crap. Really! A high quality 6 (or 7) 
course, and the 8ves MUST include courses 4 and 5 as well as the other 
basses- and this piece really pops! Actual gut helps too, we want crisp 
enunciation of the notes as you fret up to 7 & 8 frets on the bass  
courses.


The only other piece of music in any category that I have heard that 
starts on the lowest bass notes and stays there for so long is Gorecki's 
Symphony #3 "Sorrowful Songs" -utterly different mood, though. Marco's 
is very upbeat, almost humorous.


Giacomo Gorzanis is another lute composer/player who repeated phrases 
changing only courses and positions for tone color reasons.


Dan

On 1/30/2018 8:27 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Ms. 266 has a really crazy Aquila ricercar, No 25 (f. 24v), which 
starts at the lowest course and goes up to 7/h. It's also a senza 
canto ricercar.

Has anyone played this beast?...



Am 30.01.2018 um 16:46 schrieb Wolfgang Wiehe:

    a nice example for tone colour (echo) in higher register is:
    Che debo far che me consegli amore
    BSB Mus. ms. 267 No. 32
    (Marco dall Aquila?)
    greetings
    Wolfgang

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0003/bsb00032067/images/index.h
tml?id=00032067=79=193.174.98.30=%2F=150%25

    p.s. I made a transcription in french Tab some years ago, if some 
one

    is interested




    Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Januar 2018 um 15:46 Uhr
    Von: "Joachim Lüdtke" 
    An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
    Betreff: [LUTE] Re: tone colour echo
    Nor do I, but Brown records two later editions. It may be 
interesting
    (at least for someone who is fascinated by the music and the 
history of
    its editions) to compare the texts. Years ago I copied the piece 
from

    the CNRS edition, which should be based on the earliest known
    publication, that is on 1554[6]. If I wasn't out of my mind while
    copying the music, there are several measures where you would 
have to

    pick the final note in cadences from the octave string of the third
    course. Later I saw the piece in one of the later prints, and all 
this

    fine play with octave strings and resulting sonorities, which to me
    seemed so perfectly matched the way De Rippe intavolated the 
echos of
    the chanson, was edited out ... I have however never investigated 
much
    time into this, and it may even be that the piece is full of 
errors in
    1554[6] or the copy the CNRS editors where working from, and that 
all

    ideas of mine about fine play, octave strings and sonorities are
    nonsense ...
    Best
    Joachim
    Lektorat & Korrektorat
    Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
    Blumenstraße 20
    D-90762 Fürth
    Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
    Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
    Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
    [1]www.vfll.de
    [2]www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
    -Original-Nachricht-
    Betreff: [LUTE] Re: tone colour echo
    Datum: 2018-01-30T14:00:09+0100
    Von: "Rainer" 
    An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
    Looks like I don't have that book (Brown 1554[6]) - 
g

    Rainer
    On 30.01.2018 11:58, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
    > Dear Rainer,
    >
    > De Rippe's intavolation of Gentian's "Dieu qui conduit" 
("L'Eccho").

    >
    > Best
    >
    > Joachim
    >
    >
    > -Original-Nachricht-
    > Betreff: [LUTE] tone colour echo
    > Datum: 2018-01-30T11:45:30+0100
    > Von: "Rainer" 
    > An: "Lute net" 
    >
    > Dear lute netters,
    >
    > I may have posted this may years ago already - I don't remember.
    >
    > In the duet treble "Sellinger's Round" (Marsh, p. 182 and 
Dd.3.18, f.
    5r) there is a tone colour echo in bars 57 and 58 - the same 
notes on

    different courses.
    >
    > I wonder if anybody knows of any other such echo in Renaissance 
lute

    music.
    >
    > By the way, it is tempting to play a similar echo on bars 53 
and 54.

    >
    > Rainer
    >
    >
    >
    > To get on or off this list see list information at
    > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    

References

    1. http://www.vfll.de/
    2. 

[LUTE] Re: OT--Early dance interpretation?

[Dan Winheld]

Thank you! Love this...

On 1/22/2018 5:14 PM, Leonard Williams wrote:

Not quite our topic, but I just had to share this “early” dance video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjQucCX7e8o

Enjoy,
Leonard



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[LUTE] Re: left hand exercise

[Dan Winheld]

Wow David- you make it sound musical! (I always thought wood shedding 
was supposed to sound ugly so that it would be more like "work"- that's 
they way I've always done it...)

-Dan

On 1/6/2018 7:27 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

As said before, I'm not much into exercises on the lute, lifting wine
glasses and turning pages is about as sporty as it goes for me, but I
currently have an on-line pupil who likes to have some. I made her
this, beneficial for left-hand posture, slurs, ornaments, keeping
fingers close to the fingerboard, killing time and feeling good about
doing workout without having to go to the gym:
[1]https://youtu.be/ZulNNDwYK08
Ideally to be played in any key you can think of, singing along with
the right note names, and in any rhythm you feel is today's rhythm.
David
***
David van Ooijen
[2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

--

References

1. https://youtu.be/ZulNNDwYK08
2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


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[LUTE] Re: Early Music life

[Dan Winheld]

In 1967 I played Renaissance lute music on a Renaissance lute (9 course 
transitional thing by David Rubio) at an open mic joint in S.F. Also 
performed  impromptu in a number of coffee houses on Haight Street. And 
once in a vacant lot in the wee hours in the Fillmore district (back 
when it was an African-American slum, where I lived for a time) for the 
entertainment of some poor homeless drunks. Good times, actually. My 
music was somewhat less appreciated a few years later in a rural redneck 
bar in Maine. They wanted country western, and I didn't blame them one bit.


"The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters"


Francisco Goya was no dummy, that's for sure. Make America Musical 
Again  (Oh, mama!)


Dan

On 1/3/2018 10:51 AM, John Mardinly wrote:

America, being in the throes of "Make America Great Again", is
unfortunately in general hostile to any music that requires more than
two brain cells to appreciate. Fortunately, there are some exceptions.

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Jan 3, 2018, at 9:32 AM, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

  Thank you for your New Year's greeting, Tristan.
  Much as I would wish the US early music scene to be otherwise, it is
  for the most part not what might be characterized as informal,
inviting
  nor inclusive.  While there are a few soloists and ensembles
attempting
  to perform in less traditional venues, the attempts are not really
  successful.  Ronn McFarlane did in fact play in a bar in Cleveland
  once.  I had lunch with him the following day and he reported that
  there were 10 people in attendance.
  I have written about this at some length and will continue to do so,
  but the early music scene in the US really caters to
  sit-down-and-shut-up audiences who are encouraged to participate in
  some weird fan worship culture.  There are a few exceptions, and
  Mignarda is definitely among the exceptions.  We make it a point to
  seek out non-traditional audiences, and we have deliberately been
  performing in a variety of smaller venues, restaurants, coffee shops,
  libraries and in house concert settings for most of our 15 years as a
  duo.  We also perform in churches and the usual larger venues, but we
  like having contact with our audiences.
  I am of the opinion that early music will die out with the rapidly
  ageing baby-boom generation unless more of an effort is made on the
  part of performers to connect with people of all ages and backgrounds
  and encourage informal ensemble playing.  In the coming year, we will
  be initiating a series of local informal gatherings where amateurs
and
  professionals can connect and share a love of making ensemble music.
  Wish us luck.
  RA
__






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[LUTE] Re: New music

[Dan Winheld]

Excellent! There aren't nearly enough lute songs employing the Baroque 
lute.  Perfect lute for Maestro Wait's vocal range & style.



On 12/26/2017 7:13 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

I have a couple of Tom Waits songs worked up on baroque lute, but that
is an entirely different brow level!
RT

On 12/25/2017 1:15 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Interesting that you mention Taylor Swift and the lute.  A sound
engineer who twists knobs for her live shows discovered our music and
is now a regular Mignarda concertgoer, even hiring us for on demand
performances.  He said that, while he is a dedicated professional and
very good at his work, when he's off-duty he wants to hear honest,
direct, and convincing music.  We're OK with that.

RA
  __

From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [2] on
behalf of Roman Turovsky [3]
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:53 PM
To: Ido Shdaimah; lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New music

If Taylor Swift ever picks up a lute - I'd be sorely tempted to look
for
another
instrument for myself.
Lute has been (at least to some of us) an antidote for kitsch that
permeates the
commercial mass culture.
Such reactions are not limited to lutes. There has a huge backlash
against mass production,
and a resurgence of the handmade in all other art fields.
RT
On 12/25/2017 8:12 AM, Ido Shdaimah wrote:
> Interesting mail, Tristan.
> While many of us (including me) would like to see the lute
flourish in
> the world of modern classical music, maybe its best chance is
actually
> in more popular types of music.
> I think a few factors might block that though:
> 1. Obscurity: Sterling Price gave an anecdote in one of his
videos (If
> I recall correctly), where he told someone he plays the lute, and
that
> fellow thought he was referring to the flute. Yes, many people
don't
> know what is a lute or don't know that it's still played today.
> 2. Price: Like you mentioned, not everyone can even afford (or
want to
> buy) Luth Dore lutes, but most would stay clear of overpriced
Pakistani
> lutes. Something like Yamaha guitars; cheap but playable enough,
would
> do wonders to the lute world.
> 3. Available repertoire, which lacks two things: popularity of
the old
> music and modern popular music. If Taylor Swift (for example)
suddenly
> started playing the lute on stage and had songs for it, we would
> definitely see a large influx of new players. Having
intabulations of
> popular music to the lute is not enough, it's also important to
bring
> the instrument out of obscurity.
> The lute does have a lot of advantages such as the easy systems
of
> French and Italian tablature. The availability of a lot of cool
(but
> obscure) repertoire. Its portability and its sweet, delicate and
warm
> tone more suitable to the human voice than the guitar (in my
opinion).
> I'm not sure if all these are enough to tackle the above
problems.
> On Dec 23, 2017 02:08, "Tristan von Neumann"
> [4]<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>   This is probably too pessimistic, for reasons I will now try to
>   explain I hope in a deeper look at today's music.
>   Of course this is just an educated guess, not a prophecy, and
more
>   of an encouragement. The Lutists ultimately set the course. (oh
no -
>   back in the pundaemonium...)
>   1. The audience for Early Music (even really early music) is
bigger
>   than the "New Music" ("Neue Musik").
>   Whenever a composer is successfully appealing to a general
audience,
>   you can always assume it is because of a great sense of
traditional
>   tonality or modality. Philip Glass and John Adams seem widely
>   popular in the US even among the non-classical audiences.
>   In Europe, there's Arvo Pärt who left the path of atonality
and
>   serialism, and it seems the Spectralists of France are well
based in
>   the tradition of Debussy, Ravel and Messiaen (take Dalbavie for
>   example).
>   Therefore, an obscure instrument is just introduced into an
even
>   more obscure scene. (viewed from the mass standpoint)
>   Such musical approach was at least until around 2000 also part
of
>   the film score scene. Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams and others
have
>   treated film scores as New Music. But here is the strong move:
>   By forcing it onto millions of movie buffs, for the duration of
>   

[LUTE] Re: [FLUTE] New music

[Dan Winheld]

There's a sarcasm emoji?

I avoid emojis and internet acronyms.


but I was once listed in a concert program as playing the flute.

OMG!  WTF!?  LOL!  QED!  MAGA!

=-O:-\:-D :-);-)


When I asked what happened, it turns out the organizers had it listed correctly
but the printers took it upon themselves to correct the obvious typo.

Or so they told you.

I believe you don't play theorbo, so you've missed out on reading that you play
not only "the oboe" but also "the orbo."




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   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: New music

[Dan Winheld]

Now THAT is cool!   -Dan

On 12/25/2017 10:15 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Interesting that you mention Taylor Swift and the lute.  A sound
engineer who twists knobs for her live shows discovered our music and
is now a regular Mignarda concertgoer, even hiring us for on demand
performances.  He said that, while he is a dedicated professional and
very good at his work, when he's off-duty he wants to hear honest,
direct, and convincing music.  We're OK with that.

RA




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[LUTE] Re: Rewarding Renaissance Lute repertoire

[Dan Winheld]

Two thumbs up for Martin's anthology!
- I got my copy from him years ago at lute seminar, it has a wonderful 
balance of repertoire in all ways. By the way, much of Hans Newsidler's 
intabs are no push overs. He will first give you a pretty straight 
intab, then follow with an ornamented one. Timing, rhythms can be very 
tricky if you don't tweak your pace properly.  I love all of them, and 
it is especially  rewarding to learn & play his "Mille Regretz" after 
all these years of only playing the justly popular version by Narvaez. 
Both are superb examples of the art of intabulation at its best.


Dan

On 12/7/2017 1:50 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Since we're talking about Newsidler:

Yes, his books are ideal for learning to read German tablature because 
the letters are very clear and distinct and he only introduces a few 
symbols at a time.


Many of the German Tenorlieder are frustrating because they have these 
huge gaps between sections - perhaps we should improvise some twiddly 
bits to fill the gaps?


You can find some nice music (56 pieces) from German prints (in French 
tab) in my anthology "Renaissance Lute Music from German Sources" 
published by the Lute Society in 2000 
(http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/catalogue#b).


Martin

On 07/12/2017 08:04, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

Well then, you are lucky!
Deciphering obscure German Tabs is one of my next projects.
I'm running out of new music, so this would be the way to go, and as 
a side effect, I might even learn to play from those tabs. I plan to 
transcribe with lute in hand.


Does anyone have any insight into which German tab books are most 
desired as transcriptions? I prefer German song intabulations to 
French chansons. Italian Madrigals are ok. Most welcome of course are 
interesting Fantasies and groovy dances.


Am 07.12.2017 um 01:44 schrieb G. C.:
    So, Hans Newsidler seems to be a good place to begin, judging 
from the
    many manuscript copies that were made of his books. He not only 
was an
    early Renaissance lutenist, but had a didactic flair which 
caught on
    and demonstrably also worked. (Both his sons Conrad and Melchior 
became
    outstanding lutenists, especially Melchior). German tablature is 
also
    made approachable for a modern player through his easy pieces. 
There is
    a wealth of (often quite virtuosic) music available in the many 
German
    tablature manuscripts, which have not yet been sufficiently 
researched

    and are still awaiting academic and performer discovery.
    G.
    On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Tristan von Neumann
    <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
    THanks G.,
    I own the Poulton Lute Book, also I browse regularly through Sarge
    Gerbode's site. I have harvested literally 1000s of pieces now...
    But you never know what's out there, so that's why I asked, and 
also to

    see what people think is on the easy to intermediate side.
    Hans Neusiedler is really really good though, I practically 
learned to

    play the lute with his pieces.

    --

References

    1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de


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[LUTE] Re: Rewarding Renaissance Lute repertoire

[Dan Winheld]

Hey- Marco Dall Aquila! A giant among faves, and of course Capirola. And 
in the "Intabolatura de Leuto de Diversi Autori" of Castelioni we also 
have 2 magnificent, intriguingly mysterious fantasias by the once famed 
gambist & lutenist Jacobo Albutio.


Dan

On 12/4/2017 3:24 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
All good faves so far. The ones I love & and haven't been named yet 
are  Simone Molinaro and his uncle Giovanni Battista dalla Gostena. 
Fantasias of Terzi'really aren't all that daunting if you approach 
them calmly, without fear, and go slowly at first. Same can be said in 
regard to Albert de Rippe. And let's not forget Giacomo Gorzanis. Some 
repetitiveness and a little sloppy here and there, but when he rocks 
he rocks.  And, painful or not, Mel Newsidler is well worth the 
effort. Even if one can't get his most challenging ball-breakers up to 
speed, it will improve your range & grasp of fingering to work his 
stuff seriously.


And one of our most prolific composers, the man (or woman) of a 
thousand faces and more than human lifespan- Anonymous!


On 12/4/2017 1:54 PM, Sean Smith wrote:
I’m currently partial to the intabulators who took on the work of 
Archadelt. There's Vindella’s all Acadelt book (1546), the many 
variations of “Quand’io pens’al martir” and even the chansons for 
voice and renaissance guitar (A. LeRoy, Cinqiesme Livre). And 
Crecquillon, non Papa, Pathie, deRore, Lasso and ….


.. who am I kidding? I enjoy most all the vocal pieces set for lute. 
Ok, all the ones I can play, anyway. Phalese (’63, ’68) and Paladin 
sometimes stay on the stand for months.


Sean

ps, Tristan, there’s a nice Pathie set by the mysterious B.M. in Siena.




On Dec 4, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Tristan von Neumann 
<tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:


Here's a poll for Renaissance Lutists -

what do you consider most rewarding to play in terms of playability 
combined with beauty?
So far, I love Francesco da Milano and most anonymous pieces from 
the Siena Ms., they never get tiresome and lie gently on the hands.

Also Hans Neusiedler and Luis Milan.
Not in this category: Albert de Rippe. Amazing music, but honestly, 
did this guy have six fingers on each hand??


What are your favourites? Is there any obscure repertoire to discover?



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[LUTE] Re: Rewarding Renaissance Lute repertoire

[Dan Winheld]

All good faves so far. The ones I love & and haven't been named yet are  
Simone Molinaro and his uncle Giovanni Battista dalla Gostena. Fantasias 
of Terzi'really aren't all that daunting if you approach them calmly, 
without fear, and go slowly at first. Same can be said in regard to 
Albert de Rippe. And let's not forget Giacomo Gorzanis. Some 
repetitiveness and a little sloppy here and there, but when he rocks he 
rocks.  And, painful or not, Mel Newsidler is well worth the effort. 
Even if one can't get his most challenging ball-breakers up to speed, it 
will improve your range & grasp of fingering to work his stuff seriously.


And one of our most prolific composers, the man (or woman) of a thousand 
faces and more than human lifespan- Anonymous!


On 12/4/2017 1:54 PM, Sean Smith wrote:

I’m currently partial to the intabulators who took on the work of Archadelt. 
There's Vindella’s all Acadelt book (1546), the many variations of “Quand’io 
pens’al martir” and even the chansons for voice and renaissance guitar (A. 
LeRoy, Cinqiesme Livre). And Crecquillon, non Papa, Pathie, deRore, Lasso and ….

.. who am I kidding? I enjoy most all the vocal pieces set for lute. Ok, all 
the ones I can play, anyway. Phalese (’63, ’68) and Paladin sometimes stay on 
the stand for months.

Sean

ps, Tristan, there’s a nice Pathie set by the mysterious B.M. in Siena.





On Dec 4, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
wrote:

Here's a poll for Renaissance Lutists -

what do you consider most rewarding to play in terms of playability combined 
with beauty?
So far, I love Francesco da Milano and most anonymous pieces from the Siena 
Ms., they never get tiresome and lie gently on the hands.
Also Hans Neusiedler and Luis Milan.
Not in this category: Albert de Rippe. Amazing music, but honestly, did this 
guy have six fingers on each hand??

What are your favourites? Is there any obscure repertoire to discover?



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Fishing Line Renaissance

[Dan Winheld]

Actually, Nylon is a lot less dense than gut. To equal the tension of a 
.42 gut treble I need to go up to a .475 diameter in Nylon. And about 
.36 or .37 in Fluorocarbon, (which is why I almost never use it for 
trebles- getting like a bad steel string in sound & feel, although not 
of course in tension. Only of my instruments sounds/feels good with the 
Fluorocarbon treble).


Looking forward to trying out the fishing line. Maye I will reel in some 
interesting sounds!


Dan
On 10/31/2017 11:21 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

It's much less dense than Fluorocarbon.
And only a little less dense than actual gut or nylgut. You will end 
up with similar, just a bit thicker diameters than those.

Careful: They take a long time to settle (more than a week).


Am 31.10.2017 um 19:09 schrieb Anthony Glass:

So...is nylon more or less dense than fluorocarbon? I've never used
nylon on a lute, only nylgut and PVF.
Thanks!
TG

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>
wrote:

  Very cool discovery! Thanks. Could it be some form of the stuff
  referred to as "Carbon" or "Flourocarbon"- the KF (in gauges up
  to.91) made by Savarez?
  Dan

On 10/31/2017 6:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  Hello Lutist "cheapskates",
  I just got the information from the factory who produce KastKing
  Durablend fishing line (available in 0.4-1.4mm) - specific 
weight is

  1150 kg/m ³ so it's a bit more dense than usual Nylon.
  So if there's anyone out there needing a cheap string replacement
  and don't like the Flourocarbon stuff, buy those-
  It's quite transparent though, but has a nice sound. Ask for sound
  samples if you're interested.
  Cheers,
  T*
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Fishing Line Renaissance

[Dan Winheld]

Very cool discovery! Thanks. Could it be some form of the stuff referred 
to as "Carbon" or "Flourocarbon"- the KF (in gauges up to.91) made by 
Savarez?


Dan

On 10/31/2017 6:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

Hello Lutist "cheapskates",

I just got the information from the factory who produce KastKing 
Durablend fishing line (available in 0.4-1.4mm) - specific weight is

1150 kg/m³ so it's a bit more dense than usual Nylon.
So if there's anyone out there needing a cheap string replacement and 
don't like the Flourocarbon stuff, buy those-
It's quite transparent though, but has a nice sound. Ask for sound 
samples if you're interested.


Cheers,
T*



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Buying a Lute

[Dan Winheld]

I second Ron's RH recommendation very strongly, but it's not always 
simple merely because one maintains a thumb -out orientation. I would 
add a few points-


1. Within the general orientation of thumb-out only, there are 
nevertheless some very different RH angles that have all been used on 
Classical Guitar- I was taught a very bent stiff "Segovia" style that in 
no way resembles any historic 17th-18th century thumb out; (or for that 
matter late 18th - early 19th century guitar thumb out!) and by the time 
I got a decent B-lute -decades later, I moved into a more historically 
based thumb out style after having first implanted R-lute thumb under, 
followed by 10 course transitional thumb out.


Little finger down on the top; highly restrictive if not fatally 
destructive to Torres & post-Torres guitars (elevated fingerboard!) -can 
be a good thing for initially acquiring orientation for the RH and 
discharge tension while learning. Eventually, as also attested to by E. 
G. Baron , the more advanced player is free to lose that little finger 
contact as often as necessary to move around & play with greater freedom 
of expression. On my 13course lute I absolutely cannot play with that 
finger tied down anywhere on the lute top, except for very occasional 
situations. It just happens naturally when necessary.


2. At this stage of general lute knowledge I would be very surprised if 
there is anyone, anywhere who would dispute that there are differing 
techniques appropriate to differing instruments, times, uses, 
provenances, etc. as amply demonstrated in countless iconographic 
sources and writings.


3. Nails? Before you do anything, just try them and see how it works. 
Without getting into historicity, I have known several nail players who 
get just as good (1 player) and almost as good tone quality as decent 
finger-tip players. And the absolutely worst harsh sound I have ever 
heard on a lute was attained by a no-nails player!  I personally had to 
rid myself of nails (no longer interested in modern conventional 
classical guitar player, certainly no professional commitments or 
aspirations).


And of course- as mentioned- plenty of historical precedents (including 
some 20th century players) for no-nails classical guitar. You makes your 
choices and your "mileage may vary".


4. Bridge width- you need to get a set-up that fits YOU! -whatever that 
requires. Like buying shoes, pants, whatever- "If the lute don't fit, 
you'll have to quit."


Dan Winheld



On 10/18/2017 6:37 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

I forgot to reply to all.
  __

From: Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 1:36 PM
To: Ido Shdaimah
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Buying a Lute

I'll step in with some personal insights on your questions.

Without passing judgement on the output of the many excellent luthiers
across the globe, nor of recent efforts to produce instruments at a
lower cost utilizing labor from a rapidly emerging world power, buy the
best lute you can afford.  More importantly, buy an instrument from
someone who can promise to make adjustments and repairs as needed,
because you will need them.

As a classical guitarist, you will likely be more successful with
baroque lute.  Most baroque music is much more accessible, with a more
familiar treble and bass texture.  There is plenty of accessible
earlier music for renaissance lute, but the more satisfying music for
this instrument demands much deeper study in order to manage
polyphony.  With most baroque repertory, you get to play pretty
melodies with occasional added inner texture.  The work is in getting
your thumb to gracefully manage the bass notes (not like a
sledgehammer), most of which are open strings.  Further, the
historically appropriate right-hand technique for baroque lute is
really the same as that for classical guitar.  I will be dogmatic on
this point by asserting that the renaissance "thumb-under" approach on
baroque lute is historically indefensible and a complete absurdity.

Since you don't wish to give up on classical guitar, whether you choose
to use nails or not is really immaterial, unless you are interested in
playing on gut strings.  Gut strings plus nails equals large buckets of
money to replace strings that may only last a few days.  On the other
hand, many classical guitarists today are cutting their nails and
following the advice of Fernando Sor by playing with the fingertips.

Whatever you choose to buy and however you choose to approach the
instrument and its music, don't be taken in by people who will tell you
there is only one correct approach, my comments on the "thumb-under"
technique notwithstanding.  In that particular case, I'm telling you
that ne

[LUTE] Re: Left hand warm up exercises

[Dan Winheld]

More specifically to the point than the string material, but thick tight 
single strings & higher action allow for relatively healthy productive 
"pumping" finger action (right hand also) while lighter tension doubles 
and lower action benefit more from feeling & a little squeezing. And 
keep it slow- as much depends on sensitivity; "muscling" tough chord 
formations & passages can lead to  stiff, harsh playing; accumulated 
tension in the hands, wrists and tendons. Melchior Newsidler in 
particular - for me!- is a real test- only PERFECT practice makes 
perfect, not repetitive head banging.


On 10/7/2017 8:33 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

Well, it's not supposed to be pumping nylon. It's supposed to be
touching and feeling gut, relaxing your body and freeing up your sound.
But you are right in that you see me pump gut.
And about the reversed lefty, I've undertood most righties are not so
good ar reversing their brains so I've chosen to opt for reversing the
video.
    On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 at 16:57, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:

  David-
  Thanks for the video;
  Oh yes, I remember those! I did most of them back in my teenage
  years,
  Classical Guitar training.   I forgot a few, some are new (to me)
  tweaks.
  You have wandered deep into the Dark Wood of Evil Nylon Pumping
  territory- but some of us NEED to do some of that work. Not all the
  time, of course- and not hard and fast (Counterproductive, even
  injurious if overdone). I go through this kind of woodshedding
  maintenance work about 2 to 3 times a year. Oh yes, the actual
  "Pumping
  Nylon" guitar workout book is a very valuable resource for this kind
  of
  stuff. I especially like "Sergio Assad's favorite excercise" and one
  called "The Spider". There - I've said it, I do technical work; even
  guitar torture. Guilty & not sorry- Judge me accordingly!
  David- one more thing; DO NOT REVERSE FROM LEFTY! It's much better
  for
  righties to flop their brains by pretending that they are watching
  themselves in the mirror when viewing your work. I first learned to
  do
  this   years ago the first time I encountered your videos online. As
  easy
  as learning Italian tab.   I got to the point of sensing/feeling a
  more
  direct connection than from seeing th same thing from a RH player's
  perspective.
  (As an archery teacher I find it a basic necessity   to shoot lefty
  most
  of the time as most of my students are RH- otherwise they cannot see
  what I am demonstrating   & I can't see what they are doing. Good
  thing I
  am a left handed archer; I am clumsier when having to instruct the
  LH
  students I get occasionally).
  Dan
  On 10/7/2017 4:32 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:
  >  The subject came up some time ago. This is what I made for an
  on-line
  >  pupil with the same question:
  >
  >  [1][2]https://youtu.be/aFGZA7JJueE
  >
  >  This is not about speed, muscles or strength. It's about
  relaxing and
  >  feeling, touch versus grip.
  >
  >  David (and before ypu ask: yes, I'm a lefty but these videos
  I tend to
  >  reverse)





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[LUTE] Re: Left hand warm up exercises

[Dan Winheld]

David-

Thanks for the video;

Oh yes, I remember those! I did most of them back in my teenage years, 
Classical Guitar training.  I forgot a few, some are new (to me) tweaks. 
You have wandered deep into the Dark Wood of Evil Nylon Pumping 
territory- but some of us NEED to do some of that work. Not all the 
time, of course- and not hard and fast (Counterproductive, even 
injurious if overdone). I go through this kind of woodshedding 
maintenance work about 2 to 3 times a year. Oh yes, the actual "Pumping 
Nylon" guitar workout book is a very valuable resource for this kind of 
stuff. I especially like "Sergio Assad's favorite excercise" and one 
called "The Spider". There - I've said it, I do technical work; even 
guitar torture. Guilty & not sorry- Judge me accordingly!


David- one more thing; DO NOT REVERSE FROM LEFTY! It's much better for 
righties to flop their brains by pretending that they are watching 
themselves in the mirror when viewing your work. I first learned to do 
this  years ago the first time I encountered your videos online. As easy 
as learning Italian tab.  I got to the point of sensing/feeling a more 
direct connection than from seeing th same thing from a RH player's 
perspective.
(As an archery teacher I find it a basic necessity  to shoot lefty most 
of the time as most of my students are RH- otherwise they cannot see 
what I am demonstrating  & I can't see what they are doing. Good thing I 
am a left handed archer; I am clumsier when having to instruct the LH 
students I get occasionally).


Dan

On 10/7/2017 4:32 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

The subject came up some time ago. This is what I made for an on-line
pupil with the same question:

[1]https://youtu.be/aFGZA7JJueE

This is not about speed, muscles or strength. It's about relaxing and
feeling, touch versus grip.

David (and before ypu ask: yes, I'm a lefty but these videos I tend to
reverse)

--

***
David van Ooijen
[2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

--

References

1. https://youtu.be/aFGZA7JJueE
2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


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[LUTE] Re: Voices and lute in Cleveland - was "Sting Effect"

[Dan Winheld]

CLEVELAND ROCKS!

On 9/10/2017 11:55 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Since another on this list has found occasion to use this list to drop
names and advertise events in Cleveland, I'll announce to those who may
be interested in the better sort of music circa 1500 that we are
performing a concert in Cleveland Sunday September 17th.
We'll be featuring music of Binchois, DuFay, Hayne von Ghizeghem,
Ockeghem, and Josquin.  We have assembled a fine vocal ensemble that
includes Jay White, a former member of the ensemble Chanticleer, and
also David J. Rothenberg, chair of the music department at Case Western
Reserve University, author of  _The Flower of Paradise: Marian Devotion
and Secular Song in Medieval and Renaissance Music_, published by
Oxford University Press - and also a lutenist.   We'll be performing
several pieces Rothenberg mentions in his book, including Josquin's
Missa D'ung aultre amer, and Stabat Mater dolorosa.
If anyone has questions or would like more specific information, just
write me personally.
RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of Timothy Swain 
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 9:14 AM
To: Leonard Williams
Cc: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: "Sting Effect" (was Direwolf Hall)

   This was interesting (among all the responses that I deleted...) to
   someone who was involved in the early years of lutes & luting...I
knew
   Robert Lundberg BEFORE he knew a thing about lutes! (He died of
cancer
   in 2001, God rest him...) & the book that was published a few months
   after he died, HISTORICAL LUTE CONSTRUCTION by the Guild of American
   Lutheirs: Daniel Shoskes is right--& the blissfully talented large
   number of very gifted lutenists! I'm reminded of the first lute I
had,
   a GLUTE (terrible thing!) & watched Bob & his wife as they plunged
into
   lutes, going to Europe many times, the course he taught in Germany
over
   10 years--surely lutes deserve all this attention, good bad or
   indifferent! Praise be!
   Timothy Swain
   On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Leonard Williams
   <[1]arc...@verizon.net> wrote:
 I've always enjoyed Sting's musical offerings, and was
 encouraged by his
 lute diversion.   However, I was quite disappointed to see a close
 up of
 him in some sort of ensemble with a third fret very obviously
loose
 and
 surely buzzin' like bee.   I would like to have seen him take a
 second to
 slide it into place.
 Leonard
   >
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
References
   1. [1]mailto:arc...@verizon.net
   2. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Dan Winheld]

And not to be forgotten, the great work of Dan Larson of "Gamut" 
Strings- using real gut subjected to great research & creativity to 
bring us lute strings- esp. those troublesome basses- that come closer 
to a "real" thing!

Dan



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[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Dan Winheld]

Oh yes; here it is: "The lute in its historical reality" by Mimmo Peruffo

http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/liuto-en.pdf

Should be "required reading" by all lute students, players, & teachers. 
No matter how you end up stringing your instruments. Over 50 years of 
luting I have done my own small efforts; sacrifices, mistakes, and at 
this point have made the compromises (bargains with the devil too) 
necessary to continue as I head into the sunset, frets still fraying & 
strings still breaking.


Dan

On 8/31/2017 2:23 AM, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote:

Ciao,
I have to thanks all the friends  that has apreciated my efforts. It is very 
emotional, guys.
I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW:  you are 
right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, 
concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros 
(I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost  elettricity etc etc). 
Despite that  it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back and so I 
do not complain.
Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life 
(instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the 
economical support for all these tests).

Yes, I am working hard on this project:  it is one of my dream, maybe the 
bigger.  The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my  head for years 
and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass lute 
string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old sources 
that decribes the sound of the lute basses.
Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol.

Last point: I am totally in feel  and I totally agree on what Matthew and 
others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is 
happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a 
product deserves a good product. Sentence.
This is why I am there to do my service:  when I will have found the final 
solution I am there for the replaces.
(I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal job; 
instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol.
Vivi felice
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Matthew Daillie
Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21
A: Lute List 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of 
CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them 
that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions will 
be much better.

I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of 
euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent 
recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them.

Best,
Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Dan Winheld]

Mimmo,
You are a Lute Saint! And not least for the strings, but ESPECIALLY your 
wonderful work, "The Lute in its Historical Reality", all about the 
evolution of the strings; including what we know, what we don't know, 
and why we even know (and not know!). In a way, perhaps it's the strings 
that are of 1st importance, all a lute (or any instrument) is; is an 
amplifier for the sound, and a framework for the player & his hands.   ;-)


Thanks for all your great work! (And considerable investment) -but 
please don't ever stop...


Dan

On 8/31/2017 2:23 AM, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote:

Ciao,
I have to thanks all the friends  that has apreciated my efforts. It is very 
emotional, guys.
I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW:  you are 
right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, 
concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros 
(I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost  elettricity etc etc). 
Despite that  it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back and so I 
do not complain.
Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life 
(instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the 
economical support for all these tests).

Yes, I am working hard on this project:  it is one of my dream, maybe the 
bigger.  The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my  head for years 
and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass lute 
string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old sources 
that decribes the sound of the lute basses.
Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol.

Last point: I am totally in feel  and I totally agree on what Matthew and 
others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is 
happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a 
product deserves a good product. Sentence.
This is why I am there to do my service:  when I will have found the final 
solution I am there for the replaces.
(I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal job; 
instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol.
Vivi felice
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Matthew Daillie
Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21
A: Lute List 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of 
CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them 
that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions will 
be much better.

I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of 
euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent 
recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them.

Best,
Matthew



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Dan Winheld]

   George-
   Very interesting what different people have come up with. So you are
   able to get down pretty "deep" in the bass with fishing line? Quite
   intriguing! Can you tell us what material, diameter and (if you've
   figured it out) the tension of these strings? Only thing about your set
   up that doesn't compute for me is wound strings on extended peg box
   diapasons- I would think the two would be mutually exclusive-.
Back in the late 1970's when I got my first "real" lute I went nuts
   trying to get surgical gut and VERY stiff harp gut (not even simple
   high twist in that far-off "Mediaeval" era!) and had bad to disastrous
   results- esp. anything lower than the 4th course. Kept trying anyway.
   Even gave a few deplorable performances.
   Thanks for the input!
   Dan
   On 8/29/2017 5:25 AM, George Arndt wrote:

   Hello fellow lute players:

   I have been using salt water monofilament fishing line on my lutes for
   the past three years with satisfactory results. The only exception
   being the 7th course on Renaissance lutes and the diapasons on my
   Baroque lute that are wound with metal. I matched the diameter and
   length of the original strings with fishing line. If a string was
   easily broken I use a larger diameter to replace it. If peg friction
   was a inadequate, I decrease string diameter and replace that string.
   If a string slapped the fingerboard I used a larger diameter when
   I replace it.  One nice advantage is mono-filament strings may be
   pigmented and this helped me as I was learning to play. After three
   years I am satisfied with the result. It cost $120 for a lifetime
   supply of strings for my seven lutes.

   Thanks for the opportunity to add my comments.

   George
 __

   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [2]<lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
   behalf of Matthew Daillie [3]<dail...@club-internet.fr>
   Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 3:01 AM
   To: Dan Winheld
   Cc: lutelist Net
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

   Unfortunately there have been serious issues with the new loaded nylgut
   strings.
   Availability has been erratic ( I believe that there have only been two
   batches so far, the second stiffer than the first) with promises of
   delivery of certain references delayed by several months.
   Some gauges break without warning between the nut and the peg, perhaps
   due to the fact that the surface is slightly rough and does not fare
   well on the passage in the grove over the nut.
   Strings are often false, especially when being stopped going up the
   fingerboard but also when used as diapasons; their inherent
   stretchiness gives them great amplitude so when they are plucked they
   can not only hit against the fingerboard but also against the string of
   a neighbouring course!
   I am sorry to be so negative regarding these strings. I had very high
   hopes and if Mimmo manages to get the formula right and overcome
   production issues, then they will probably become a lot of players'
   number one choice but we are certainly not there yet. Loaded nylgut
   strings are not inexpensive and it is frustrating to spend considerable
   sums of money before being forced to conclude that they are still at
   the experimental stage and that we are acting as guinea pigs.
   I use PVF strings on the 5th courses of renaissance lutes and as
   diapasons on theorbos. They work well and are incredibly long lasting.
   I have seen and heard them used very successfully on 6th, 7th and 8th
   courses of renaissance lutes. Tying them around the bridge is tricky
   (some luthiers such as Martin Shepherd suggest thinning the ends). I
   have no experience of using them on baroque lutes but I would have
   thought that the diameters for the lower courses would have been
   prohibitive.
   Best,
   Matthew
   > On Aug 29, 2017, at 1:26, Dan Winheld [4]<dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:
   >
   > A question for those of you who have tried, used, and been satisfied
   with the Savarez KF (originally for harp) bass strings- the gut like
   one starting at .90 or .95 mm thickness (losing memory here) and have
   also tried Mimmo Peruffo's new basses- How do they compare? I am mostly
   quite happy with the Savarez KF- VERY satisfied with the long single
   basses on my archlute-  but on my 10 course & 13 course bass rider
   style Baroque lute the very lowest courses could use a little help; but
   if I change them I would want to go all the way to the 6th course.
   >
   > One draw back to the KF is the stiffness, they can be very annoying
   to wrestle through and around the bridge holes, worse as they get
   thicker. I have heard that Peruffo's strings were actually too flexible
   at first and that he had to "dial them back" a bit so that they would
   not fret flat going up the fingerboar

[LUTE] Re: Restringing for transitional tunings

[Dan Winheld]

Makes me wonder about the term "Slack key" tunings for Hawaiian guitars- 
that the change in tension is part of the fun...

Dan

On 8/29/2017 7:23 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

I'm playing since years and years some transitional tunings on my 10c lute, 
normally tuned in VT, without changing any strings - and other accords nouveaux 
lute types which are normally tuned in the nouvel accord ordinaire (d-minor) 
withoput changing any string. And it works.
Of course the feeling changes - but I can handle it.
If I make a concert program, I have normally one instrument in the dedff and 
the other in edeff and fedff tuning. For the tunings see:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Accords/Accords_Darstellung/Accords_Darstellung.html
or
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/styled-5/styled-9/index.html
(the beginning of the translated homepage... the remaining pages and a better 
formatted design will follow in the next months...)

It's simply not thinkable that the lutenists of the transitional period 
restringed their lutes for every tuning! So we have to find solutions which are 
near by the old practice.

By the way: With gut strings it's more comfortable to change tunings than with 
modern string materials.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 29.08.2017 um 15:36 schrieb Matthew Daillie :


Unfortunately it isn't really possible to play the music for 10-course lute in 
transitional tunings without changing a number of strings (or having a second 
lute) if you're coming from vieil ton. Even going from one transitional tuning 
to another is problematic, especially with respect to the chanterelle.

Best,
Matthew

On 29/08/2017 15:21, Leonard Williams wrote:

I don't play anything of the transitional tuning period, but my
experience with retuning between D or C on my eighth course makes me
wonder about the need to change strings for retuning.  (I came up [aided
by Dan Larsen] with a gimped gut that's not too flabby on the C, not too
bright on the D.)  Perhaps it's easier to accommodate variable tuning with
higher pitches?  Are different materials more amenable to this? Do you
need several lutes, or simply a program arranged from a single tuning
scheme?

Thanks—just curious,
Leonard Williams





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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


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[LUTE] KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Dan Winheld]

A question for those of you who have tried, used, and been satisfied 
with the Savarez KF (originally for harp) bass strings- the gut like one 
starting at .90 or .95 mm thickness (losing memory here) and have also 
tried Mimmo Peruffo's new basses- How do they compare? I am mostly quite 
happy with the Savarez KF- VERY satisfied with the long single basses on 
my archlute-  but on my 10 course & 13 course bass rider style Baroque 
lute the very lowest courses could use a little help; but if I change 
them I would want to go all the way to the 6th course.


One draw back to the KF is the stiffness, they can be very annoying to 
wrestle through and around the bridge holes, worse as they get thicker. 
I have heard that Peruffo's strings were actually too flexible at first 
and that he had to "dial them back" a bit so that they would not fret 
flat going up the fingerboard. Very counter intuitive to me after years 
of thick basses fretting sharp!


Thanks for any information.Dan



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[LUTE] Re: lute and flute ideas

[Dan Winheld]

A very easy initial immersion for the non-specialist in early music is 
to jump right into the English lute song repertoire. Good editions have 
been around forever; they are usually very user friendly. Any and all of 
them, Campion, Rosseter, all the way up to Dowland. That's how I 
introduced my harp duet partner to this stuff. A total modern harpist, 
she still has some trouble with Galliard rhythms and hemiolas- but 
outside of early music she can literally play anything, including jass & 
pop. Songs are good for learning and/or practising phrasing in ways that 
pure instrumental music does not.


Dan

On 8/28/2017 6:56 AM, Gary Boye wrote:

Collective Wisdom of Performing Lutenists:
I have someone who plays flute interested in doing some duets . . . She
has a Renaissance flute and I have a 6c in A and an 8c in G.
I would appreciate any thoughts on appropriate repertoire--I'm assuming
she would play either vocal lines or melodies for non-specific
instruments. She is a professional--but on the modern flute; a bit new
to early music. What really works?
Thank you in advance; I know this is the quickest way to get an answer
to a question like this!
Gary
--
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Erneston Music Library
Appalachian State University

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[LUTE] Re: A440?

[Dan Winheld]

A dime in pitch is a lot less than a quarter. Tune it up, you should be 
fine.  Going up from 415 would be a whole 'nother matter; THAT would be 
out of the question without a re-stringing. You would really have to be 
skating on the edge for 10 cents of pitch to make the diff between 
flying bridges, snapping chantarelles, and fun "safe" performance. A gut 
treble would be the only thing that would concern me, and for that 
occasion I would put on a suitable nylon for that one string.
In fact, my "440" capable gigging archlute lives at at 430 between jobs, 
just for the relaxation & mercy to my ears. But she tunes up fine with 
no problems once a month or so for the 440 gigs.



On 8/7/2017 8:00 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Aug 7, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Gary Boye  wrote:

Lute List members, Help!
   I've been asked to play on some Lully excerpts from Le Bourgeois
   Gentilhomme in early October. I have a theorbo, lute, Baroque guitar .
   . . no problem. But the conductor wants to do it A440. All of my
   instruments are strung for A430 (and one A415).
   My initial response is to say no, but I want to encourage some early
   music performance here, so my only options would appear to be:
   1) Re-string an instrument for A440 ($$$!)
   2) Try some type of capo (OK for guitar, less so on theorbo)
   3) Try to finger it at F#m or Fm and stay tuned low
   4) Tune high and risk it (!)

Unless your instrument is really cranked at 430, tuning it up to 440 shouldn’t 
be much of a risk.  I’d say the chance of it exploding, killing you and 
everyone within ten feet of you, is less than 50%.  I’d think the only reason 
to have a lute-family instrument at 430 is to facilitate playing at both 415 
and 440 without a major change in tension.

If you have a theorbo in A at 415, try tuning it down and playing it as an 
instrument in G.


   5) Try to convince them to play at A430 (seems doubtful)

Indeed, impossible, if there are woodwind instruments.




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[LUTE] Re: vocal source

[Dan Winheld]

Thanks, Ron (and thank you Joe for setting this in motion!) for all this 
great info; I have enjoyed playing the Wickhambrook ms. for decades and 
look forward to your next release of the French Chanson anthology.


Never cared deeply for that old Philly Dump after hearing that catchy 
first bit a few times (nice fun lute candy to rip through now & then) 
but obviously unlike any of van Wilder's real material.


Dan

On 7/17/2017 9:07 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

I forgot to copy the lute list on this response.
  __

From: Ron Andrico 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 1:41 PM
To: Mayes, Joseph
Subject: Re: [LUTE] vocal source

You're welcome.

I don't believe you will find a setting of "Si vous voules" attributed
to Loyset Compere.  I'm quite familiar with Compere's music, and no
reference to a setting of "Si vous voules" by this composer is listed
among his work - even among the questionable attributions.

There seems to be a great deal of confusion over attribution of works
by Van Wilder and Compere.  For instance, the motet "O bone Jesu",
found among Francesco da Milano's intabulations of vocal polyphony, has
been mis-attributed to Compere for probably 500 years, and is still
listed among his works in sometimes useful but mostly iffy places like
the Choral Public Domain Library.  "O bone Jesu" is by the Spanish
composer, Antonio de Ribera.  The famous lute variations titled "Dump
philli" and found in the Marsh ms. has nothing whatsoever to do with
Philip van Wilder, but someone created the attribution out of thin air
sixty years ago and the absurd myth persists.

Compere was of the same generation as Josquin, and his secular chansons
exhibit a style that can be described as much earlier than the more
sophisticated mid-sixteenth century polyphony of van Wilder, and van
Wilder is undoubtedly the composer of the model upon which the
Wickhambrook lute setting is based (concordance in Dd. 2.11 f. 24v).  A
handful of Compere's otherwise delightful chansons are included in our
Anthology of 16th-century French Chansons, Volume II, which will be
available this autumn.

RA
  __

From: Mayes, Joseph 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 12:32 PM
To: Ron Andrico
Subject: Re: [LUTE] vocal source

Thank you, Ron, for your informative reply.

I already have the Van Wilder however, and am searching for the
Compere.
  __

From: Ron Andrico 
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 3:55 PM
To: Mayes, Joseph; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [LUTE] vocal source

I guess I constitute the reservoir of collected wisdom for the moment.

"Si vous voules" is by one of my favorite composers, Philip Van Wilder,
and a modern edition of the vocal model can be found in Philip van
Wilder: Collected works, ed. J. Bernstein, Masters and Monuments of the
Renaissance, iv (New York, 1991).  Van Wilder's setting in five parts
lacks a text, and there is no surviving poem with the same title that
can be adapted to fit the musical setting.  "Ma povre bourse", which is
also arranged in a very ornamented setting for solo lute in the
Wickhambrook Ms., does have a surviving text that we have fit to the
music, and it makes a very convincing lute song.

RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of Mayes, Joseph 
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 4:28 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] vocal source


Hello Collected Wisdom
I feel a bit inadequate for having to ask this, but...
I'm playing "Si Vous Voulez" from the Whickhambrook Ms. and am looking
for the vocal model. The song is attributed to Loyoset Compere, but I
can't seem to put my questing finger on the original. Does anyone out
there in the lute-universe have a direction for me?
Thanks,
Joseph Mayes
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[LUTE] Re: La folia

[Dan Winheld]

If French tab versions are so hard to find, perhaps learning Italian tab 
or transcribing it into the French system will produce the the same or 
better results for the same effort. Unless, of course, this is for an 
historical research project- comparisons? Disseminations?


On 6/10/2017 4:28 AM, Wim Loos wrote:

Dear friends,

I'm looking for La folia in French tablature for Renaissance lute. Does
anyone where I can find it.

Thanks in advance,

Wim Loos

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[LUTE] Re: Cumb=C3=A9es?=

[Dan Winheld]

   "I'm gonna build a wall! The Picts are gonna pay for it! Make Albion
   great again!"  -Hadrian Trumpus.
   Didn't work too well for the Chinese either. As far as I know, the
   Mongols & the Manchus still haven't even coughed up a single yuan.
   On 5/28/2017 12:00 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:

   >Perhaps we should hire President Trump to build a wall for us.

   I seem to recall some guy named Hadrian attempted the barrier solution
   a few years back.  But I for one would donate money if you would hire
   Donald Trump to build a wall, just as long as you keep him busy and
   keep him over there.
   RA
 __

   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [2] on behalf
   of [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk [4]
   Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 1:59 PM
   To: [5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   Cc: LutList
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cumbées?
   Original Message
   From: [6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   Date: 28/05/2017 0:08
   To: "Lute List"[7]
   Subj: [LUTE] Re: Cumbées?   > On May 27, 2017, at 6:37 AM, 
[8]mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk wrote:
   >
   >  there were a lot of Africans in Spain during
   > the 16th and 18th centuries. North African is just a short distance
   > across the Mediterranean from Spain.
   Tangier is, but it's 3,300 kilometers from Gibraltar to Dakar and 4,500
   kilometers to Sierra Leone.  Is the cumbee a Moorish dance?
- That is a good question.  Spain held territories in North Africa and
   Spain and Portugal navigated down the west coast of Africa long before
   they reached the New World. Vasco da Gama sailed to India round the
   southern tip of Africa etc. at the same time that Columbus discovered
   the West Indies. So the idea that any African dances must have come
   from Mexico doesn't really hold water. I think the received wisdom is
   that the cumbees, paracumbe and guinea and a few others all came from
   Guinea or that part of Africa rather than from north of the Sahara.
   Distance is not really a factor - it was Aristotle I believe - correct
   me if I am wrong - who said "We Greeks live like frogs around a pond".
   The Mediterranean is not much of a barrier - refugees are flooding from
   Africa into Europe in boatloads by that route today. Perhaps we should
   hire President Trump to build a wall for us. A suspension bridge might
   be a better idea - fewer people would drown. The Roman Empire
   encompassed a lot of North Africa and Spain was invaded by people from
   North Africa long before the Moors arrived and some of them must have
   been ethnically African.
- So take your pick.
   Monica

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   4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   6. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Amusing lute reference

[Dan Winheld]

   On 3/8/2017 4:51 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:

   We were just listening to a live concert performed by the amazing  Hana
   BlažÃková & Barbora Sojková (with apologies for the diacritics),
   [1][1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enLsTLDKym0 apparently recorded in
   2011, and Donna began browsing for harps on the interwebs.  One
   particular site she visited advertised what appear to be toy
   instruments, and we were amused by the following quote:

   DAMN! I want that instructional book...!

   "...we also offer a Renaissance Lute which is a pretty easy instrument
   to learn and it comes with a case and instructional book."  Now we
   know.


   --

References

   1. [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enLsTLDKym0


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[LUTE] Test piece workout, for Loaded 6th course

[Dan Winheld]

Fellow luters, I have found the perfect piece of music for thoroughly 
vetting a 6th course (and 5th , also) for intonation up the neck. This 
one will really let you know if your bass & octave can truly cut it!   
And a great workout for you and your lute in any case.


Marco Dall'Aquila, #9 from the Lute Society Music Editions. "Recercar", 
D-Mbs Mus.266, ff. 24v-25v.


Enjoy!

Dan



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[LUTE] Re: String calculators

[Dan Winheld]

Also on Dan Larson's "Gamut" website:

http://www.gamutstrings.com/calculators/calculator.htm

On 3/1/2017 5:59 AM, Leonard Williams wrote:

Can anyone recommend a good online string calculator?  I used to use
Arto's, but I'm currently being blocked by Java on my Mac (running Sierra
— OS 10.12).  Or perhaps someone more tech savvy than I (easily done!)
knows a work-around.

Thanks and regards,
Leonard Williams





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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Dan Winheld]

On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:

"Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the fundamental."

Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly slack octaves 
early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were functionally useless; the overspun 
basses already being so overly heavy on the harmonics. Until we started seriously 
playing with gut basses we didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave 
strings. (I know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same 
tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & 
intonationally.

 But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes that's a 
deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet tried the new CD 
loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the thick string would go flat as 
it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not false!). Too flexible- very 
interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I remember attempting to use thick, 
stiff, low twist harp strings back in the 1970's for lute basses- what a 
disaster!

Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the trigger 
yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings until this is 
sorted out.

Dan




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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Dan Winheld]

Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? 
That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string 
specifically.  It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses 
are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut 
bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut 
"Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)  All fret more or less the same and 
can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, 
matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. 
Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets 
can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & 
single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure 
will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will 
respond differently.


Dan


On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:

Hi Bruno

No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.

Arto

On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:

   Dear Collective wisdom,
   I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with 
wound

   strings and gut or nylgut.
   recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
   getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
   loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
   different lutes.
   I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go 
up the

   neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
   rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to 
figure

   out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
   it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably 
found to

   be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
   combinations.
   I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes 
out
   of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded 
string

   that is giving me the problem.
   any comments?
   Bruno

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[LUTE] Re: "Intavolatura de viola overo lauto" Naples, 1536

[Dan Winheld]

Too much pizza. the Neapolitan lutenists/violists did not want to see 
reminders in their tab.

Dan
On 2/23/2017 12:53 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

I remember playing through the book the first time. So difficult! But
strangely familiar. And no open strings ... only then I realised.
David





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[LUTE] Re: "Intavolatura de viola overo lauto" Naples, 1536

[Dan Winheld]

Thank you all- no luck on this; (nothing on the LSA website, just the 
better known sources) I would love the Minkoff but I imagine that it is 
only slightly less unobtainable than a surviving copy of the original. 
Basically, I would be good just knowing which- if any- of the pieces are 
concordant with any of the ones in the Ness anthology, a first edition 
copy that I have been wearing out for over 46 years now.


Thanks to Stephan Olbertz, your edition looks very interesting,, we may 
be in touch.



On 2/22/2017 6:53 PM, lutesm...@me.com wrote:

You might try the lsa facsimile page. I think I saw it there.
Sean





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[LUTE] "Intavolatura de viola overo lauto" Naples, 1536

[Dan Winheld]

Dear lute list,

My turn to beg for help:

"Intavolatura de viola overo lauto" Naples, 1536

Yes, that book- Francesco's "Vihuela" book.  Can anyone direct me  to 
any modern reprints? (any tab. or pitch trans.) OR, a list of 
concordances- preferably to any in the Ness anthology- assuming there 
are any, of course. I could find none; although he lists it as a source 
("36S"), so I am now really puzzled about the contents of that print.


I am giving a small recital in which I intend to illustrate the 
Italian/Spanish Viola/Vihuela connection/overlap- so the Francesco book 
is an obvious must! (Also means I bring just the vihuela & leave the 6 
course lute at home).


Thank you all-  Dan



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[LUTE] Re: planetary tuners

[Dan Winheld]

   Actually I stand somewhat corrected on the gut basses- some of Dan
   Larson's work quite well... :-)   DW
   On 2/11/2017 12:26 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:

   John Mardinly has nailed it. My otherwise fabulous 8 course has an
   early prototype installation of these things. On my lute they are far
   more bother than they are worth (came with; this lute was a quick
   purchase of an already built lute. Bought in spite the pegheadz).
   Changing strings is, indeed, a tedious nightmare; esp. the 1st course
   which must dive into the pegbox at an unfortunate angle due to no
   provision for an "outside" hole on these things. Broken more 1st
   courses (not gut!) than not, until I ran the string to the LAST peg!
   The 4/1 turning ration is good only if your nut is slick enough to
   avoid the string sticking that is more likely to occur from slow,
   incremental turning speed- which does, admittedly, make very fine
   tuning easier for those who need it- WHEN the nut is smooth & flawless.
   Beginners, (esp. multi-course instruments). Anyone with arthritis &/or
   other finger health issues.
   But, it slows me up, and no doubt many other players.
   There is one argument against the planetary gear/pegheads that I
   totally reject. It is the one that says "They are not HIP, not
   traditional, the Old Dudes didn't use them..."   Bullcrap! That line of
   judgment leads, of course, to no synthetic strings. And that would mean
   no really usable bass strings beyond 6 course. (Only a very few of us
   still have working loaded GUT basses from Mimmo. And the loading itself
   has not been totally cleared for Kosher consumption.)
   So- I hate them, but others love them- including one of my Baroque lute
   students; on his 13 course Burkholtzer copy from Dan Larson's workshop.
   He has yet to replace his synthetic strings with the gut set that he
   also ordered, and we have yet to change a single string. Very smooth
   nut, and on his lute they do work perfectly. Just too many turns of the
   screw for my taste, but he loves them and it's HIS lute!
   Dan
   On 2/11/2017 10:02 AM, John Mardinly wrote:

   I have planetary tuners called ‘Pegheads'. They were installed in my
   1970 David Rubio 8 course lute by Mel Wong during a restoration he did
   a year and a half ago. Let me share some observations:

   1) The original friction pegs had gone very out of round and were very
   difficult to use. My understanding of this process is that it is caused
   by anisotropic expansion and contraction of the woods, which is extreme
   in regions that have extreme changes in humidity with the seasons. The
   'Pegheads' seem immune to this problem. I know this can be avoided by
   regularly moving the pegs, but prior to the restoration, the instrument
   had been unplayable for over a decade, and I just never even took it
   out of the case to look at it.

   2) The 4/1 mechanical advantage and absence of ‘sticking' make it much
   easier to adjust the tension on the string between the peg and the nut.

   3) The improvement in adjusting the tension does not necessarily
   translate into improvement in tuning, since on my lute, the strings
   stick at the nut. Perhaps I need a new nut, or need to repair and
   re-install the ‘roller-nut' I built 40 years ago that I removed for the
   restoration. I have just been too busy playing, and perhaps a bit lazy
   and procrastinating so far.

   4) Changing strings requires a lot more (4X) knob twisting, and they do
   not fit any guitar string winders I have seen.

   5) As a former industrial and university failure analysis engineer, I
   am always worried that one day, something inside the peg head will go
   ‘Pop', the peg won't work, and my lute will be essentially disabled,
   and I will not be able to fix it myself because I have no idea what the
   ‘guts' of the mechanism is or if there is even a way to take it apart
   for repair without destroying it.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer

   On Feb 11, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Roman Turovsky [1]<[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   A question for the Collective Wisdom:
   Looking for opinions on planetary tuners for lutes or vihuelas,
   cautionary tales, where to get them, which brands, how to install etc.
   Thank ye all,
   RT
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2][2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQICaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji
   z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=qhk
   PbCA9hO80PkW18vkevfqksMnDfwT3D4yosPLAH9Y=bWPEnXQeUDe15yQrHzezPd2v4Mu_
   YRly_RHlQF1hFMs
References

   1. [3]mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQICaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A
-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTc

[LUTE] Re: planetary tuners

[Dan Winheld]

   John Mardinly has nailed it. My otherwise fabulous 8 course has an
   early prototype installation of these things. On my lute they are far
   more bother than they are worth (came with; this lute was a quick
   purchase of an already built lute. Bought in spite the pegheadz).
   Changing strings is, indeed, a tedious nightmare; esp. the 1st course
   which must dive into the pegbox at an unfortunate angle due to no
   provision for an "outside" hole on these things. Broken more 1st
   courses (not gut!) than not, until I ran the string to the LAST peg!
   The 4/1 turning ration is good only if your nut is slick enough to
   avoid the string sticking that is more likely to occur from slow,
   incremental turning speed- which does, admittedly, make very fine
   tuning easier for those who need it- WHEN the nut is smooth & flawless.
   Beginners, (esp. multi-course instruments). Anyone with arthritis &/or
   other finger health issues.
   But, it slows me up, and no doubt many other players.
   There is one argument against the planetary gear/pegheads that I
   totally reject. It is the one that says "They are not HIP, not
   traditional, the Old Dudes didn't use them..."   Bullcrap! That line of
   judgment leads, of course, to no synthetic strings. And that would mean
   no really usable bass strings beyond 6 course. (Only a very few of us
   still have working loaded GUT basses from Mimmo. And the loading itself
   has not been totally cleared for Kosher consumption.)
   So- I hate them, but others love them- including one of my Baroque lute
   students; on his 13 course Burkholtzer copy from Dan Larson's workshop.
   He has yet to replace his synthetic strings with the gut set that he
   also ordered, and we have yet to change a single string. Very smooth
   nut, and on his lute they do work perfectly. Just too many turns of the
   screw for my taste, but he loves them and it's HIS lute!
   Dan
   On 2/11/2017 10:02 AM, John Mardinly wrote:

   I have planetary tuners called ‘Pegheads'. They were installed in my
   1970 David Rubio 8 course lute by Mel Wong during a restoration he did
   a year and a half ago. Let me share some observations:

   1) The original friction pegs had gone very out of round and were very
   difficult to use. My understanding of this process is that it is caused
   by anisotropic expansion and contraction of the woods, which is extreme
   in regions that have extreme changes in humidity with the seasons. The
   'Pegheads' seem immune to this problem. I know this can be avoided by
   regularly moving the pegs, but prior to the restoration, the instrument
   had been unplayable for over a decade, and I just never even took it
   out of the case to look at it.

   2) The 4/1 mechanical advantage and absence of ‘sticking' make it much
   easier to adjust the tension on the string between the peg and the nut.

   3) The improvement in adjusting the tension does not necessarily
   translate into improvement in tuning, since on my lute, the strings
   stick at the nut. Perhaps I need a new nut, or need to repair and
   re-install the ‘roller-nut' I built 40 years ago that I removed for the
   restoration. I have just been too busy playing, and perhaps a bit lazy
   and procrastinating so far.

   4) Changing strings requires a lot more (4X) knob twisting, and they do
   not fit any guitar string winders I have seen.

   5) As a former industrial and university failure analysis engineer, I
   am always worried that one day, something inside the peg head will go
   ‘Pop', the peg won't work, and my lute will be essentially disabled,
   and I will not be able to fix it myself because I have no idea what the
   ‘guts' of the mechanism is or if there is even a way to take it apart
   for repair without destroying it.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer

   On Feb 11, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Roman Turovsky [1]<[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   A question for the Collective Wisdom:
   Looking for opinions on planetary tuners for lutes or vihuelas,
   cautionary tales, where to get them, which brands, how to install etc.
   Thank ye all,
   RT
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2][2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQICaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji
   z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=qhk
   PbCA9hO80PkW18vkevfqksMnDfwT3D4yosPLAH9Y=bWPEnXQeUDe15yQrHzezPd2v4Mu_
   YRly_RHlQF1hFMs
References

   1. [3]mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.ed
u_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQICaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A
-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=qhkPbCA9hO80PkW18vkevfqk
sMnDfwT3D4yosPLAH9Y=bWPEnXQeUDe15yQrHzezPd2v4Mu_YRly_RHlQF1hFMs=



   --

References

   1. mailto:[1]r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. 

[LUTE] Re: Lute Stringing

[Dan Winheld]

Hello Mimmo,

YES, I'm sold. When I have the time to crunch all the numbers (tensions 
& all other relevant specifications together) I will be ordering a 
bunch. Or just send me what's on your lute. Or send the whole lute; you 
won't have unstring & restring, and I will tune it up for you too! :-P 
Now take a rest, you've earned it.


Thanks for the new vid, and all the fine work.

Dan


On 2/8/2017 1:15 PM, Mimmo wrote:

   Hello to anyone
   I have made this video showing the last version of ther CD basses.

   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrNCEOfPVM

   there is  a brief text in the video explaining the difference than the
   first CD's types.
   In the video I am a bit tired after this very stresses job.
   Do not worry for that
   Mimmo



   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrNCEOfPVM


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[Dan Winheld]

Interesting- to (some) modern players- both HIP and non-HIP; by the way- 
that "well played" has to automatically be synonymous with "fast enough".
- And Ralf, thanks for the info concerning falsas, ficta, and the 
hexachords.


I never heard that Mudarra was mocking Ludovico, rather instead that he 
was honoring the great harpist's ability to throw in some chromatic 
(well, falsa/ficta fun) notes playing a diatonic harp. Another theory 
(or actual fact?) was that harpists would indeed have a string in f# in 
one octave and an f natural in another, to cope with the need for such.


Dan


On 1/15/2017 3:28 PM, Ralf Mattes wrote:
  
Am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2017 22:37 CET, Mathias Rösel  schrieb:
  


and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast enough.
There are no "wrong" notes.

Wait, wait! Nowhere does Mudarra mention speed at all. It's an easy to fall in 
trap to claim to know
what an author "wants to say", esp. if you are ignoring what he wrote - 
"Algunas falsas tañiendo se bien
no pareçen mal"


Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
notes" in his fantasia.

I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
that why you put it in quotes?)

"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", i.e. 
notes that are generated from
hexachords other than the standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) 
translation one might read:
" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when played well 
appear to sound good."

Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
skills as a harp player but actually
rather convincing when you look at the music. And it give us valuable 
information on techniques used on
diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.

  Cheers, Ralf Mattes


  
  
  

  
  
  

  






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[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain

[Dan Winheld]

   "...and my guess is that these strings may last forever.."
   While no doubt true, and good thing as well, ALL unfingered lute bass
   strings last virtually forever! My Baroque lute student has had the
   original (and unspeakably vile) metal overspun strings on his otherwise
   very fine 13 course lute for at least 10 years now; only his 7th course
   is starting to become tolerable from the occasionally fingered A-flat
   and B-flat. I do my part keeping string builders and merchants afloat
   because of my perceived need for new & improved strings, and/or radical
   re-evaluations of tension/sonority/pitch considerations.
   Thanks to all for answering my little shopping questions- but as they
   are flying off the shelves so fast, I may have to wait awhile; at least
   until Mimmo gets the bugs out of the factory. Can't stand it when I can
   only get some a set to fill out a particular range.
   Onwards!
   Dan
   On 1/9/2017 9:02 AM, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:

   and my guess is that these strings may last forever..
   Bruno

   2017-01-09 11:56 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>:

 Fascinating thread! I am delighted that after over 40 years in the
 lute "business" (even mostly amateur) that good bass strings may be
 emerging as an obtainable, affordable,  predictable, and PRACTICAL
 reality. Mimmo Peruffo is to be congratulated for all his work over
 all these years.
 Now, can anyone tell me if the new basses are now  available in the
 U.S?
 Thank you all-
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain

[Dan Winheld]

Fascinating thread! I am delighted that after over 40 years in the lute 
"business" (even mostly amateur) that good bass strings may be emerging 
as an obtainable, affordable,  predictable, and PRACTICAL reality. Mimmo 
Peruffo is to be congratulated for all his work over all these years.


Now, can anyone tell me if the new basses are now  available in the U.S?

Thank you all-



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: new video

[Dan Winheld]

Thank You Martin- yes, that's how it's done- basically- and Matthew has 
given us a few good follow up tips as well.  I haven't owned a soldering 
iron in many, many decades- so it's the old match stick. cig lighter, 
flame-thrower options for me as well. Nothing like the smell fried gut 
in the morning!


Also check- or double check for low spots on the neck, esp. near the 
fingerboard/body joint. Sometimes there are nasty surprises. On one of 
my lutes, the highest fret was a toss-up (to the builder) for a tied 9th 
or the first (optional of course) wooden fret. Came tied, which I 
prefer- but it's a low spot that requires the thickest fret of all. 
Straight-edge on the fingerboard and careful sighting in a good light 
are necessary here.


Dan



On 10/23/2016 12:48 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote:

On 23/10/2016 18:32, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Hi All,

A new video in the "tips" series - this time some help with tying frets:

https://youtu.be/Qs_pXOoBVLU

Best wishes,

Martin


Dear Martin,

Thanks for the video. Without wanting to question anything you 
demonstrated I thought I might add a few points which I consider to be 
important.


I think that it is advisable to have a set of fret gauges for a 
particular instrument (often supplied by the maker) rather than just 
measuring a fret to be replaced. Very often over time the diameters of 
frets change considerably (the gut generally absorbs humidity and 
becomes thicker) and even if one measures an old fret on the part that 
was sitting on the back of the neck, it is not necessarily the correct 
gauge for a replacement. It also imperative to measure thicknesses of 
new fret gut with a micrometer as they rarely correspond exactly to 
what the manufacturers note on the packet (especially if they have 
been stored for some time). Once the new fret is in place it is always 
good to check that there are no buzzes.


To avoid the issue of scratching a varnished neck (or a plain fruit 
wood neck) with a knot, some people suggest using a slither of thin 
plastic taken from an old credit card or the like which can be put 
under the knot as one slides it into position. Some makers use a hard 
wood for the fingerboard edging which overlaps the neck enough to be 
able to place the knot on and so avoid damage to the softer wood on 
the neck. I have also noticed that it is advisable to put the running 
end of the fret through the knot in such a way as it comes out 
parallel to the burnt end. In this way one makes sure the knot lies 
flat and does not gouge a ridge into the neck.


I try to place the new fret as close as possible to the fret below it 
(or the nut in the case of the first fret) so that when put into 
position it becomes tight enough (you suggest one centimetre lower 
than its final position which doesn't seem quite enough to me).


I have never used a soldering iron to burn the ends of fret gut but 
find that good quality matches or a lighter with an adjustable flame 
are perfectly safe as long as one holds the neck of the lute 
horizontally so that the flame is above the part of the fret one 
wishes to singe and one proceeds by gentle touches using the base of 
the flame.


One last thing. When passing the fret gut under the strings, it's good 
to check that no strings have been missed out before tying the knot. 
There is nothing more annoying than starting to move a fret into 
position and realising that a string has escaped your attention and is 
above the fret rather than below it!


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Purcell

[Dan Winheld]

Hello Monica-
I have never heard of Princess Anne's Lute Book- could you please 
enlighten me a little further?

Thanks,   Dan W.


On 10/1/2016 1:25 AM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

And if you have access to it, Princess Anne's Lute Book includes
arrangements of about 20 pieces from Purcell's stage works of the 1690s
including one piece that might just possibly be one of those played
during a performance of Dido.
Monica


Original Message
From: mjhodg...@hotmail.co.uk
Date: 01/10/2016 8:04
To: "Bruno Figueiredo", "List LUTELIST"
Subj: [LUTE] Re: Purcell

If you play the 5 course (baroque) guitar then you'll see that Purcell
asks for a couple of dances for this instrument so this will best
fit
the composer's intentions - as well as having audience appeal.
Select
a chaconne  and another piece by, say, Corbetta and this will work
very well in performance.

Peter Holman, with whom I've frequently played continuo in D,
believes Purcell expected guitar continuo for much of this
particular work.

MH
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on
behalf
of Bruno Figueiredo 
Sent: 30 September 2016 14:18
To: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Purcell

   I have been asked to play on Purcell's Dido (modern orchestra at
442
   with my little 8 course - ok, we can skip this part) and the
conductor
   asked for a solo lute piece by Purcell or someone in the same
style.
Is
   there any dance tune of him transcribed for renaissance lute? I
thought
   that maybe a saraband by Puccinini might work...
   Any advice is welcomed!
   --
   Bruno Figueiredo
   Pesquisador autônomo da prática e interpretação
   historicamente informada no alaúde e teorba.
   Doutor em Práticas Interpretativas  pela
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   --
To get on or off this list see list information at
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[2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
www.cs.dartmouth.edu
Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list.
getting
on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I
get
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References

1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: New blog tackles a major piece

[Dan Winheld]

Martin, sounds great! Thanks for including your play-through 
demonstration-  your performance made sense of a couple of spots where I 
would otherwise nit-pick your solution. (I still might, when I go back 
to working on it myself). Couple of spots I had already done your 
correction- because it was easier than playing  it as presented by Poulton.



On 9/28/2016 9:16 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear All,

You can find the fruits of some recent research at:

http://luteshop.co.uk/dowlands-tremolo-fantasia-whats-wrong-with-it/

I hope you find it interesting.

Martin



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



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[LUTE] Re: composed for the lute?

[Dan Winheld]

Still a better bet than trying to play the collected lute solos of Buddy 
Bolden. I've heard that they're ALL spurious!



On 9/16/2016 1:30 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Dear Martin and all:

Interesting point of view, and one that seems to be based upon the
theme that if the surviving evidence is scant, then we are obliged to
discount the premise.  In in thesis, David Tayler posed a similar
question of how much of the surviving music, mostly in manuscript form,
can be firmly attributed to Dowland, and the answer was not much.

Of course Dowland composed for the lute - and he sang and he most
likely wore shoes although there is no firm evidence of any of the
above.  But anyone who wades through the "collected works" will detect
a musical personality that emerges, mainly via signature riffs (such as
the Lachrimae motif) and cadential events.

Whether the actual notes written in ms  or printed in his books were
those Dowland meant to write, we'll never know for sure.  We do know
that all players took inspiration (or purloined tunes) from diverse
sources and I think the question might be stated, "where did Dowland
filch his source material for the surviving lute music that was written
down mostly by others?"

RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of Martin Shepherd 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 3:01 PM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] composed for the lute?

Hi all,
You might find my latest blog interesting:
[1]http://luteshop.co.uk/was-dowland-a-composer-of-lute-music/
Best wishes,
Martin
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References

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2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Charles Mouton / CNRS

[Dan Winheld]

   Well, on this side of the old mud puddle:
"...we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
   ...And if you finally get M. Mouton's book in time, you could perhaps
   adapt one of his tombeaux for us- e.g., "Le Depart de feue de la
   Republique", or perhaps the iconic bumping down the stairs of a typical
   tombeau de M. Blancocher would be more appropriate. Would that it may
   only be a Trump l'oeil- we are way too far down the rabbit hole here as
   it is.
   D
   On 8/26/2016 1:54 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote:

After Brexit I no longer know whether I'm an Englishman or a mad dog. Probably a
 bit of both (with a hint of garlic thrown in for good measure).
Best
Matthew




On Aug 26, 2016, at 2:12, Dan Winheld [1]<dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:

"Mad dogs and Englishman do business in August..." (Pendent le mois d'aout, tous
 le monde est en vacances...:-D)



On 8/24/2016 3:25 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
If you give me all the details I shall try to ring them (although many companies
 close during August in France).
Best
Matthew




On Aug 24, 2016, at 12:11, Mathias Roesel [2]<mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:

Dear everybody,

In the beginning of June I ordered Les Oeuvres de Charles Mouton from CNRS
Editions. They confirmed my payment automatically and at once. On the next
day, Mrs Lavaud of CNRS Editions confirmed my order and promised to deal
with it asap.
Two months later, in the beginning of August, I wrote them a note, saying
that I was waiting still. I have got no reply so far.

Would the French members of this list please advise me how to proceed?

Mathias



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References

   1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Charles Mouton / CNRS

[Dan Winheld]

"Mad dogs and Englishman do business in August..." (Pendent le mois 
d'aout, tous le monde est en vacances...:-D)



On 8/24/2016 3:25 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote:

If you give me all the details I shall try to ring them (although many 
companies close during August in France).
Best
Matthew




On Aug 24, 2016, at 12:11, Mathias Rösel  wrote:

Dear everybody,

In the beginning of June I ordered Les Oeuvres de Charles Mouton from CNRS
Editions. They confirmed my payment automatically and at once. On the next
day, Mrs Lavaud of CNRS Editions confirmed my order and promised to deal
with it asap.
Two months later, in the beginning of August, I wrote them a note, saying
that I was waiting still. I have got no reply so far.

Would the French members of this list please advise me how to proceed?

Mathias



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