To: Donatella Galletti do...@tiscali.it; LuteNet list
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp;
chriswi...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 11:27 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Relative absence of funeral music in the Catholic territories has spawn
Message -
From: Stephen Arndt stephenar...@earthlink.net
To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed
Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; Donatella Galletti do...@tiscali.it
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:16 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Insofar
The situation as to which version came first is of a course a classic
Russell's Teapot (or Celestial Teapot, if you prefer).
Anyone can say the poem was written by anyone, including the Earl of
Essex, and it is impossible to prove it either way.
I stand by my metrical and stylistic
Thanks Ed--I don't know that one!
dt
At 12:26 AM 12/8/2009, you wrote:
On Dec 7, 2009, at 5:59 AM, David Tayler wrote:
That is such a gorgeous song, are there any other Pilkingtonia that
are as good?
Yes!
First book of songs #2: My choise is made, and I desire no
That is such a gorgeous song, are there any other Pilkingtonia
that are as good?
David Tayler
First book of songs #2: My choice is made, and I desire no
change.
Ed Durbrow
Thanks Ed--I don't know that one!
dt
Oddly enough, this is one of the first John Dowland
be interesting to know
the source, is there anyone who wrote such things in Italy at the time?
Donatella
- Original Message -
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow
edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re
...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 4:26 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Another take on the matter: In the eyes of Catholicism, being depressed
was a serious sin because it was seen as a denial of the saving power of
Christ.
I talked to someone very much
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Ed Durbrow
edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp, chriswi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 4:26 PM
Another take on the matter: In
the eyes of Catholicism, being depressed was a serious sin
because it was seen
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Donatella,
It was called Acedia and was one of the seven deadly sins. Its usually
translated as Sloth in English, but denotes a spiritual as well as physical
listlessness.
Chris
--- On Wed, 12/9/09, Donatella Galletti do...@tiscali.it wrote:
From
On Dec 7, 2009, at 5:59 AM, David Tayler wrote:
That is such a gorgeous song, are there any other Pilkingtonia that
are as good?
Yes!
First book of songs #2: My choise is made, and I desire no change.
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
On Dec 4, 2009, at 12:34 AM, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com
[2]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Its important to keep in mind that melancholy was a fashionable
artistic conceit at the time. It really was a game of I can out-sad
you. Thus, a lot of this rep has its tongue firmly implanted in
Hi all,
perhaps no one has not yet mentioned the interesting article by Anthony
Rooley: New light on John Dowland's song of darkness in Early Music
1983 11(1):6-22.
The beginning of the article can be seen in
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/11/1/6
And all of the the article
Ed,
--- On Tue, 12/8/09, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote:
No
one is mentioned as having
caused the distress. Kind of like some
blues in a way.
Yes, blues is a great analog. I suppose much of it is melancholy of the hurts
so good variety. Acting suitably bummed has been de
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Ed,
--- On Tue, 12/8/09, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote:
No
one is mentioned as having
caused the distress. Kind of like some
blues in a way.
Yes, blues is a great analog. I suppose much of it is melancholy of the
hurts so good variety
Another take on the matter: In the eyes of Catholicism
ah, but how does that play in england in elizabethan times? You have
closeted catholics, confused church of england, protesting calvinists,
black-clad puritans, refugee hugenots, and a Queen heading them all who
quietly tolerates it all as
Re the recent discussion as to what 'In
Darkness let me dwell' might be about:
As usual, David van Ooijen got it
right, but didn't point out that because the
setting of both verses of the poem was clearly written expressly for this
Penelope Rich/ Mountjoy 'Funeral Tears'
sequence, it must
And just one more, also from the 60's
Black Night is Falling; Charles Brown
So how does this compare to Paint It Black by the Rolling Stones?
I think it was ergot in the Renaissance. In the 60s... ; )
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
We can't end this discussion with Pilkington, surely :)
d
At 01:30 PM 12/5/2009, you wrote:
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:07 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote=
:
=A0 I agree that the word joy is a reference to Mountjoy, it is not the
=A0 repetition that is important, since many poets
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 10:39 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
We can't end this discussion with Pilkington, surely :)
:-)
No, we shouldn't, however sweet his songs.
Given Dowland's known love for Marenzio, his knowledge of continental
music and poetry, indeed, his borrowing from
I agree that the word joy is a reference to Mountjoy, it is not the
repetition that is important, since many poets used repetition, it is
the way it is used.
For example,
Dear if you change:
Earth with her flow'rs shall sooner heav'n adorn,
Heav'n her bright stars through
I agree with David that the second verse is quite different in style
and meter, maybe having been added later to suit the occasion.
The dramaitic quality of the first verse, has inspired Dowland to make
his most intense song.
Adding the second verse as Cooper/Coperario did would have produced
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:28 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
The internal metrical structure of the poem, which relies on an
Alexandrine pattern, suggests that it is a translation of a
continental model, probably French.
Now we are talking; these are valid arguments.
Digman
- Original Message -
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Peter Martin
peter.l...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:34 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Peter
...@sonic.net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 6:37 AM
I'm not so sure that the ever
mournful John Dowland's tongue was so firmly planted in his
cheek on this issue. Did JD not travel to Italy to learn
the melancholy pose
...@yahoo.com
To: Lute list [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Peter Martin
[7]peter.l...@gmail.com
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 9:34:32 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Peter Martin [1][8]peter.l...@gmail.com
wrote:
From: Peter Martin
Thank you ALL for your thoughtful and erudite responses! I hope you
will keep folowing this thread.
I never cease to be amazed at the amount of sheer knowledge and
intellect encapsulated within the lute list.
You have given me much more to ponder than I ever imagined possible.
All that stuff is well and good. Actually, it's magnificent,
important, and the best course of study if you are planning to
expound this song to a college audience.
For me personally, all I ever needed was the bare song itself.
Between difficult times in my life- including a touch of
They may be alluding to depression.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Tom Draughon
Sent: 03 December 2009 04:58
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Renaissance Metaphors
A music student at my local college wants me
As a point for discussion.
I read the poem thus (a very personal view of course!)
For me sitting down and writing this down puts any thoughts I have had
about this poem in perspective.
Probably next year I will have changed my mind somewhat.
In darknesse let mee dwell,
Definatley a piece written about depression ( or depressed at the time of
writing ).
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Lex van Sante
Sent: 03 December 2009 08:59
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance
Can I remind everyone of the [1]www.johndowland.co.uk website which has
paraphrasesof all Dowland's lyrics:
[2]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm
Might be of interest to the present discussion.
Rob
--
References
1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/
2.
Definatley a piece written about depression ( or depressed at the time of
writing ).
I don't think so. A real depression makes you unable to write like that.
As mentioned in the poem, sorrow and dispair are the main parts of that
dark building..
The listener is to imagine what the reason for
The paraphrase--perhaps a mixture of metaphrase and paraphrase
changes
In darknesse let me dwell the ground shall sorrow be,
to
Let me live in darkness. The ground of my dwelling shall be sorrow
However, this cannot be correct as since the word dwell is changed to
live but
It's one of the Funeral Teares, a series of seven poems, set for
soprano, alto and lute by Coprario, to commemorate the death of
Charles Blount, Baron Mountjoy. It has two verses, Dowland only used
the first verse, and apart from the obvious advice to read the second
verse to understand the first
Reminds me of Starless and Bible Black. King Crimson, via Dylan
Thomas.
P
2009/12/3 Lex van Sante [1]lvansa...@gmail.com
As a point for discussion.
I read the poem thus (a very personal view of course!)
For me sitting down and writing this down puts any thoughts I
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:54 AM
Reminds me of
Starless and Bible Black. King Crimson, via Dylan
-Original Message-
From: Narada [mailto:blues.for.nar...@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 03 December 2009 15:39
To: 'chriswi...@yahoo.com'
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Could we apply this line of thought to Dowlands Forlorn Hope Fancy?
Neil
-Original Message-
From: lute
On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:34 AM, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
The poem is not quite up to the eloquent heights of desperation
evinced in a line like cigarettes and ice cream, but Darkness
is still a pretty decent tune.
The poem's definitely about depression. Not truly debilitating
clinical
Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the Funeral Teares
(including that 2nd verse to In Darkness.. easily googleable, or
Wikie'd? Or is there some especially good source where one can find
them?
A side note esp. regarding Dowland's settings- frequently the
underlay is problematic after
Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the Funeral Teares
(including that 2nd verse to In Darkness.. easily googleable,
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/funeral/index.html
Tom
or
Wikie'd? Or is there some especially good source where one can find
them?
A side note esp. regarding
A side note esp. regarding Dowland's settings- frequently the
underlay is problematic after the first verse
Irregular scansion is hardly unique to Dowland - a problem familiar to all
singers of any experience, commonly affecting every song of any length,
from church hymns to sea chanties. The
Are you saying that Dowland was familiar with Coprario's setting and
adapted it, or can it be either that they both used the same poem
--with some important changes--or is it also possible that the extra
verses were added later?
I don't see a convincing timeline as far as the composition of the
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net wrote:
Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the Funeral Teares
(including that 2nd verse to In Darkness.. easily googleable, or
All in one site:
Thank you David. Tom's recommended website- also very helpful- is a
hoot, and also worth checking out
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/funeral/index.htm
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Daniel Winheld
dwinh...@comcast.net wrote:
Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the
Any theories about why, if the song was written this early, Dowland
didn't include it in any of his first three books of songs (1597, 1600,
1603), but held it back until the Musical Banquet of 1610?
Peter
2009/12/3 David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net
Are you saying that
That's an interesting site, and I haven't looked through the whole
thing, but it seems it only establishes a print date, or terminus
ante quem for Coprario of 1606.
If there is more information I would be interested in seeing it.
That would put Coprario around 4-6 years later than Dowland, even
Dowland was reluctant to publish his most important works. Farewell
Fancy, his masterpiece, was never published, nor was the solo version
of Lachrimae, and there are many more.
When wondering why, I always like to think of Leonardo da Vinci and
the Mona Lisa. He carried it everywhere, and
Human speech is like a cracked kettle on which we tap crude rhythms
for bears to dance to,
while longing to make music that will melt the stars.
-Flaubert
Another possibilty is that both poems are based on an unknown
antecedent which may or may not have the extra verses.
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:02 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
wrot=
e:
Dowland =A0was reluctant to publish his most important works.
Of course, anything is possible. But some facts before theories.
Coprario published his set of song in 1606 on the death of Baron
Mountjoy. The
To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Peter Martin
peter.l...@gmail.com
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 9:34:32 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Peter Martin [1]peter.l...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Peter Martin [2]peter.l...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re
.
_
_
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com
To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Peter Martin
peter.l...@gmail.com
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 9:34:32 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Peter Martin
Hi,
So how does this compare to Paint It Black by the Rolling Stones?
My tiny little impro on that matter in ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuyf4uha8fs
Arto
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
In Darkness would have to have been written before Galliard to
Lachrimae. Dowland's pieces can all be reliably dated by the way the
courses are used.
The internal metrical structure of the poem, which relies on an
Alexandrine pattern, suggests that it is a translation of a
You will hear and read many things about these poems. Everyone has an
idea about what X means.
In Shakespeare studies, the example is oft cited about the three
witches. There are literally a thousand versions of what they
symbolize; each writer is sure that they have it right, and they are
all
On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Tom Draughon wrote:
it seems
obvious to me that The ground, the ground shall sorrow
be... has multiple connotations - physically ground as in
the foundation of a building, and musically ground as in
variations on a ground. The roof despair... and ...walls
of
55 matches
Mail list logo
