Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello OpenBSD friends, Just to clarify this post, I would like to say that I have run gnumeric under gdb as I was told. It seems that the crash problem is a libgnomecanvas bug that is solved in the newer versions, so it is a GNOME bug, not OpenBSD packaging problem. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90259 Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x04c1f2ab in gcbp_destroy_gdk () from /usr/local/lib/libgnomecanvas-2.so.1000.1 So I want to apologize for blaming OpenBSD ports with this issue. Thank you very much and sorry for that. Ramiro. On 3/14/06, Kurt B. Kaiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nice to see someone who says something constructive. Would you mind if you can point me to a HOWTO on how to do that. I will be pleased to help. I supose that I must compile gnumeric with debugging simbols first, as someone stated before. And run gdb or ddd. Google is your friend. Also, http://directory.fsf.org/gdb.html http://directory.fsf.org/ddd.html man pages for such an extensive program aren't too useful for a beginner. The docs are texinfo and an info file is available. Also html and .pdf. -- KBK
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 12:10:53AM +0100, Ramiro Aceves wrote: Why do you insult to the GNU people? aren't you using their compiler?. I do not understand why you say such things. Peace, please. *I* can insult the GNU people. I've spent enough time working around their over-engineered code that somehow, breaks all over the place (latest issue being GCC's libmudflap being WAYS too chummy with linux headers), or can't possibly work without hordes of lemmings fixing it all the time (libtool, for instance). I guess that's the reason I spent most of my time debugging KDE bits instead of gnome... at least THAT code is sane.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hi I have better luck using pkgsrc (www.pkgsrc.org) than OpenBSD ports. There are more easy to upgrade. roberto 2006/3/12, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello dear OpenBSD fans. After playing during some time with OpenBSD 3.8 and understanding how it works, I wanted to give it a more serious try on my laptop. I know OpenBSD is not intended for desktop use, but anyway, I wanted to use some applications. The results have been very disapointing. GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. XFCE. Sometimes the panel suddenly disapears. VLC. When I try to open a file FILE- OPENFILE-BROWSE. I am not able to see the directory and file listing properly. I get a list of strange named files. GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells I am used to Debian GNU Linux stable, I have never seen so many failures on the applications (none at all). I do not want to start a war here, but It has been my sad experience using OpenBSD ports. I have no complaints about the base system, wireless Intel 2200 wifi works well, firefox, gaim, vim, etc... Do the porters check that the ports work before a release? Am I doing something wrong? If you need some information about my system please let me know. Thank you very much in advance. Ramiro. -- Ing. Roberto Pereyra ContenidosOnline Servidores BSD, Solaris y Linux Soporte ticnico ISPs Jabber ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For reliable and professional DNS, use DNS Made Easy! http://www.dnsmadeeasy.com/u/14989
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Sunday 12 March 2006 18:11, Wijnand Wiersma wrote: I have a problem with gnome and the gnome guys should just fix it. Switching is NOT the solution. Neither the openbsd developers, nor the gnome ones are your subordinates: you're not paying for their time and skills! So just shut up, go fix the bug yourself and give back diffs to them. If you're not able to code and fix the problem, just switch to another desktop and stop whining. This is how free software works. Wijnand Regards, David
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Roberto Pereyra wrote: I have better luck using pkgsrc (www.pkgsrc.org) than OpenBSD ports. There are more easy to upgrade. As someone once said USER: Your software does not suit my needs, I am going elsewhere. DEVELOPER: Promise? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 13/03/06, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do you say that? Gnumeric works nicely under Linux. No problem at all. If something is broken, it is broken. Period. Just because it seems to work on Linux every time you try it, doesn't mean that they have no programming mistakes in the code. It literally takes years for some mistakes to be discovered, just look in the archive of how many bugs were found in very popular third party software after 'malloc(3) has been rewritten to use the mmap(2)' in OpenBSD 3.8 (google for the part in quotes). Please: 1. Read FAQ: URL:http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq15.html#Problems 2. Notice that this is misc@, not [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. Complain to GNOME, not OpenBSD. Enlighten them about the new malloc(3) in OpenBSD. Cheers, Constantine.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 14/03/06, Constantine A. Murenin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/06, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do you say that? Gnumeric works nicely under Linux. No problem at all. If something is broken, it is broken. Period. Just because it seems to work on Linux every time you try it, doesn't mean that they have no programming mistakes in the code. It literally takes years for some mistakes to be discovered, just look in the archive of how many bugs were found in very popular third party software after 'malloc(3) has been rewritten to use the mmap(2)' in OpenBSD 3.8 (google for the part in quotes). And here is the link to the proper article about this: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=articlesid=20051224192032 I think it is now apparent that most OpenBSD developers aren't interested in fixing these bugs in every possible piece of software (which makes perfect sense to me -- one always has limited resources to spare -- why fix those GPL-style bugs? I'd rather see more free software fixed).
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/14/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells Clearly something rather fundamental is broken. It is very likely an issue relating to the port. We have no reports of such a thing over at the Gnumeric bugzilla. In fact, we have no open bugs containing the string bsd in a comment. For the record, Gnumeric gets tested on Solaris/sparc/purify regularly and well as on Linux/i86/valgrind. We also run regularly on 64-bit archs, so average code quality should be a good deal above normal. In order to do anything about your issue, a stack trace would probably be needed. Running under gdb and typing where after the crash ought to provide one. Nice to see someone who says something constructive. Would you mind if you can point me to a HOWTO on how to do that. I will be pleased to help. I supose that I must compile gnumeric with debugging simbols first, as someone stated before. And run gdb or ddd. Thanks Ramiro. Morten
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Nice to see someone who says something constructive. Would you mind if
you can point me to a HOWTO on how to do that. I will be pleased to
help. I supose that I must compile gnumeric with debugging simbols
first, as someone stated before. And run gdb or ddd.
Hi,
There is no howto, but I think I know how it is done.
cd /usr/ports/math/gnumeric
make configure
cd w-gnumeric-x.x.x/gnumeric-x.x.x
vi Makefile
Now you need to add in the -g switch to compile with symbols (as you
correctly stated). If you are lucky you will have a variable ${CC}, which
you can add the switch to.
then cd ../..
make install
This is still on the wrong list btw.
Also give this a read so you know how ports actually work:
http://openbsd.org/porting.html
Also read the man page for bsd.port.mk
Hope that helps.
Regards
Edd
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 08:34:08PM +, Edd Barrett wrote:
Nice to see someone who says something constructive. Would you mind if
you can point me to a HOWTO on how to do that. I will be pleased to
help. I supose that I must compile gnumeric with debugging simbols
first, as someone stated before. And run gdb or ddd.
Hi,
There is no howto, but I think I know how it is done.
cd /usr/ports/math/gnumeric
make configure
cd w-gnumeric-x.x.x/gnumeric-x.x.x
vi Makefile
Now you need to add in the -g switch to compile with symbols (as you
correctly stated). If you are lucky you will have a variable ${CC}, which
you can add the switch to.
Most ports support setting CFLAGS.
cd /usr/ports/foo/bar
env 'CFLAGS=-g -O0' make install
Don't be surprised if '-O0' makes the bug dissappear.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nice to see someone who says something constructive. Would you mind if you can point me to a HOWTO on how to do that. I will be pleased to help. I supose that I must compile gnumeric with debugging simbols first, as someone stated before. And run gdb or ddd. Google is your friend. Also, http://directory.fsf.org/gdb.html http://directory.fsf.org/ddd.html man pages for such an extensive program aren't too useful for a beginner. The docs are texinfo and an info file is available. Also html and .pdf. -- KBK
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 08:34:08PM +, Edd Barrett wrote: cd /usr/ports/math/gnumeric make configure cd w-gnumeric-x.x.x/gnumeric-x.x.x vi Makefile Ouch. make DEBUG=-g install should do the job. -- It's a Barrier Of Entry issue: if you can't figure out which floppy to boot from, go run Gentoo. -- Matthew Jenove on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Matthias Kilian wrote: On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 08:34:08PM +, Edd Barrett wrote: cd /usr/ports/math/gnumeric make configure cd w-gnumeric-x.x.x/gnumeric-x.x.x vi Makefile Ouch. make DEBUG=-g install should do the job. Thank you very much! Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Kurt B. Kaiser wrote: Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nice to see someone who says something constructive. Would you mind if you can point me to a HOWTO on how to do that. I will be pleased to help. I supose that I must compile gnumeric with debugging simbols first, as someone stated before. And run gdb or ddd. Google is your friend. Also, http://directory.fsf.org/gdb.html http://directory.fsf.org/ddd.html man pages for such an extensive program aren't too useful for a beginner. The docs are texinfo and an info file is available. Also html and .pdf. Thank you very much Kurt for the information. I will try to study it and understand as much as I can, in order to be able to help instead of complain. I asume my mistake, perhaps I should have said things more politely, Regards. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Most ports support setting CFLAGS. cd /usr/ports/foo/bar env 'CFLAGS=-g -O0' make install Don't be surprised if '-O0' makes the bug dissappear. Hello Andrew, Many thanks for the valuable information. I will start doing the debugging this week end. We are in this world to learn things, not to fight. Regards. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello, this is what I found about the gnome-panel issue on the bugs page: Number: 4473 Category: ports Synopsis: gnome-panel freeze and quits on OpenBSD 3.8 current i386 Confidential: yes Severity: serious Priority: medium Responsible:bugs State: closed Quarter: Keywords: Date-Required: Class: sw-bug Submitter-Id: net Arrival-Date: Thu Aug 25 14:40:01 GMT 2005 Closed-Date:Wed Sep 28 19:03:06 MDT 2005 Last-Modified: Wed Sep 28 19:03:06 MDT 2005 Originator: Jaya Sri Das Release:gnome 2.10 Organization: net Environment: System : OpenBSD 3.8 Architecture: OpenBSD.i386 Machine : i386 Description: gnome-panel used to freez and quit unexpectedly nearly in every minute How-To-Repeat: i386, OpenBSD current, gnome-session 2.10.0, Xorg. Start to click on that panel, for example in Preferences, and it will freez up nearly in every minute. Maybe a memory allocation problem. Fix: Release-Note: Audit-Trail: State-Changed-From-To: open-closed State-Changed-By: pvalchev State-Changed-When: Wed Sep 28 19:02:40 MDT 2005 State-Changed-Why: not enough info provided i forwarded this to the gnome people anyway Unformatted: Text version OpenBSD [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have not found anything related to gnumeric, vlc, nor xfce. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Ramiro Aceves wrote: ... Yes, WM also works fine here. But again, it is not a solution. GNOME should not be released in such buggy state. I don't follow your logic here. Ok, let's say GNOME was removed from ports by your suggestion. In that case, you WOULD need to find another solution. In the mean time, no one would be attempting to isolate and repair problems with GNOME, which means nothing would get better, and you would still have to find another solution. From your original post: Do the porters check that the ports work before a release? uh...yes. But...YOU also have to be involved. Don't wait for a new release, then whine that it is broken. TOO LATE! You missed your chance. Quit letting other people do your testing and work, and then whining about the results. I find it entertaining (in a morbid sort of way) when people come from Linux when they realize some of the same things that drove them to Linux in the first place take place there, too. So then they go hunting around for an alternative, and then they try to make their alternative look just like what they gave up on. *sigh* Nick.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
I differ a bit. If the port were removed, there'd be even less incentive to work to fix it in future. But, if testing shows it doesn't work, it should be marked as BROKEN for releases, yes. Now, wrt testing, it applies what others said: Everyone is asked to contribute, even if the contribution is only testing and feedback. Oh yes, I agree, I am not complaining because gnumeric does not work, I complain because I understand that a released software shoud not have such kinds of trivial bugs. If the porters cannot fix it, it should be marked as BROKEN, just to avoid to the potential OpenBSD users thinking that they have that application ready to use. When I first discover OpenBSD after some years using Linux, I got in love with it, I liked its philosophy very much, its correctness, its documentation, the way the kernel boots, Everything is where you spect it to be. Sometimes linux is a mess. I looked at the package list, just to see if I could use the same applications I used to work under Linux. I said yes!, I can use GNOME, GNUMERIC, VLC, Vim, etc.. great!. But I have realized that it was not true. Just before the code freeze for 3.9, for example, there was a request on the OpenBSD lists to test stuff *now*. That would've been the best time to try out everything you'd possibly like and report back on it. That'd have ensured that the port would either be fixed or marked BROKEN in time. Yes, I would have liked to help, but I have not had enough free time. Ramiro, Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello Helping is done with cash donations and diffs. Being an buttplug is not. I do not have enough money to make donations, I have contributed buying a CD set. I think it is insignificant and not too much but it is the only thing I can afford. I am not capable of sending any diffs. Not everybody is capable of understanding complex programs. It's and external piece of code and like most GNU code it sucks shit. Why do you say that? Gnumeric works nicely under Linux. No problem at all. Welcome to our world! Where most code is written for Linux only with lower quality standards than Windows 3.11. Don't like it? Go tell the Gnome imbeciles that *they* need to learn how to program. Why do you insult to the GNU people? aren't you using their compiler?. I do not understand why you say such things. Peace, please. Regards. Ramiro. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
I have tested it in two very different machines and It fails as soon as you format a cell. no, my laptop runs -current. Oh great, it means that they have fixed it! It is not every possible combination of program and input, it is a failure that appears as soon as you format a cell. you're missing the big picture. it is every possible combination of program and input - but we can't investigate stuff unless people report it. and people won't report bugs in features they never use. and we hardly ever backport fixes to old ports. programs mysteriously conflict with each other all the time. authors change APIs or dependencies and then everything breaks. that's why it took us so long to upgrade gettext... and i'm pretty sure that it's not hard to find gnumeric users who don't format cells. i hardly ever do: people send me excel spreadsheets, i look at them, say yes or no, and that's the end of it. Well, I understand, but formating a cell under a spreadsheet is so important thing that I can not conveive a spreadcheet without it. You need formating a numeric cell for example to stablish the quantity of digits on the right of the decimal point. It is just an example, but it is heavily used. If gnumeric is broken, do not release it, I would have choosen kspread without complaining here. I think that I am saying very reasonable things. Some people start getting angry very quickly. I of course appreciate your work and the work of all the people who contribute to OpenBSD. I just want to say that I was disappoited on how many basic bugs I found on very few time on OpenBSD ports. I just wanted to do constructive comments. That could be an interesting thing, the problem is that my C programming skills are very limited, just enough to write very simple programs. I am pleased to do any test you need. well this is a good opportunity to learn C, then. read bsd.port.mk(7) - pay attention to the parts about compiler flags. build gnumeric and all its dependencies with -g, don't strip the output, and see if you can get a crash dump. then use gdb or ddd to look at the crash. if nothing else, that'll give you someplace to start writing a bug report. you might even get lucky and not have to build with debug symbols - look at the core and see if it tells you where it crashed. Thank you very much for the interesting information. I will start reading, studying and understanding what you recomended. It will be hard work, I am 35 and thing I am too old to understand such complex software ;-). Programming is something one has to learn very early, in order to understand it easily. I appreciate very much your constructive email. Regards. Ramiro. when fixing ports, don't waste your time on a released version (3.8, 3.9, etc). those are frozen and rarely ever change. if you find a in a release, see if it exists in -current and try fix or report it. CK -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? ;-)
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 2006/03/14 00:01, Ramiro Aceves wrote: When I first discover OpenBSD after some years using Linux, I got in love with it, I liked its philosophy very much, its correctness, its documentation, the way the kernel boots, Everything is where you spect it to be. Follow the cvs-changes and ports-changes mailing lists for a while and you'll see what is involved with this. It doesn't take long to notice that this doesn't just require skill, it also requires a lot of time, effort, and attention to detail. Sometimes linux is a mess. No surprise that apps written primarily for Linux sometimes follow the same philosophy. Often it seems that people prefer to write how-to work around a problem than document it and report it to the people that might be able to fix it. Just before the code freeze for 3.9, for example, there was a request on the OpenBSD lists to test stuff *now*. That would've been the best time to try out everything you'd possibly like and report back on it. That'd have ensured that the port would either be fixed or marked BROKEN in time. Yes, I would have liked to help, but I have not had enough free time. It takes, what, a couple of hours to install a snapshot, set PKG_PATH appropriately and upgrade the pre-built packages if you haven't done it before...well under an hour real-time if you have. For next time: With OpenBSD, running -current is quite low-risk in the first place, running snapshots even safer. Running snapshots in the weeks building up to a release is like running a release candidate from many other software projects, any big problems would be both surprising and important to report. It seems like a simple thing to just test and report success or failure, but a few dozen people doing this and using sendbug or writing to ports@ or the maintainer where appropriate really extends the number of environments that get tested. The OpenBSD community is small enough that *you* can make a difference.
OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello dear OpenBSD fans. After playing during some time with OpenBSD 3.8 and understanding how it works, I wanted to give it a more serious try on my laptop. I know OpenBSD is not intended for desktop use, but anyway, I wanted to use some applications. The results have been very disapointing. GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. XFCE. Sometimes the panel suddenly disapears. VLC. When I try to open a file FILE- OPENFILE-BROWSE. I am not able to see the directory and file listing properly. I get a list of strange named files. GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells I am used to Debian GNU Linux stable, I have never seen so many failures on the applications (none at all). I do not want to start a war here, but It has been my sad experience using OpenBSD ports. I have no complaints about the base system, wireless Intel 2200 wifi works well, firefox, gaim, vim, etc... Do the porters check that the ports work before a release? Am I doing something wrong? If you need some information about my system please let me know. Thank you very much in advance. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Sunday 12 March 2006 20:36, Ramiro Aceves wrote: GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. GNOME is currently pretty much unusable on OpenBSD. If you want a full-featured desktop on OpenBSD KDE is currently the way to go. XFCE. Sometimes the panel suddenly disapears. Report it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] VLC. When I try to open a file FILE- OPENFILE-BROWSE. I am not able to see the directory and file listing properly. I get a list of strange named files. Report it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells Report it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am used to Debian GNU Linux stable, I have never seen so many failures on the applications (none at all). Other than GNOME not working I rarely have any problems at all with packages on OpenBSD. --- Lars Hansson
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 01:36:04PM +0100, Ramiro Aceves wrote: Hello dear OpenBSD fans. After playing during some time with OpenBSD 3.8 and understanding how it works, I wanted to give it a more serious try on my laptop. I know OpenBSD is not intended for desktop use, but anyway, I wanted to use some applications. The results have been very disapointing. GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. XFCE. Sometimes the panel suddenly disapears. VLC. When I try to open a file FILE- OPENFILE-BROWSE. I am not able to see the directory and file listing properly. I get a list of strange named files. GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells I am used to Debian GNU Linux stable, I have never seen so many failures on the applications (none at all). I do not want to start a war here, but It has been my sad experience using OpenBSD ports. I have no complaints about the base system, wireless Intel 2200 wifi works well, firefox, gaim, vim, etc... Do the porters check that the ports work before a release? Am I doing something wrong? If you need some information about my system please let me know. Ports should work, actually, and OpenBSD should be suitable for desktop use. The flip side of the coin is that fancy GUIs are not too well loved amongst the developers, so support is typically less good than would be the case for, say, Fedora Linux. However, I think I've heard of problems with the GNOME panel before (the others are new to me, at least, but I didn't check the bugs). You might want to: 1. Verify hardware 2. Upgrade to -stable, if you have not already done so (coincidentally, this uses gcc a lot, which is a very good memory tester - as in, it will almost certainly SIGSEGV if your memory is bad; bad disks might get detected, too) 3. Verify your installation 4. Try to reproduce them, preferably on 3.9 5. Send a couple of bug reports. Don't forget the dmesg! Before sending bug reports, you'll want to search the bugs list. Joachim
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello! On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 01:36:04PM +0100, Ramiro Aceves wrote: GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. XFCE. Sometimes the panel suddenly disapears. VLC. When I try to open a file FILE- OPENFILE-BROWSE. I am not able to see the directory and file listing properly. I get a list of strange named files. GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells I am used to Debian GNU Linux stable, I have never seen so many failures on the applications (none at all). That could also be the fault of the programmers of said applications, writing relatively non-portable code. Kind regards, Hannah. PS: Who runs OpenBSD quite fine, though I don't use bloaty stuff like Gnome or similar - fvwm2 and normal X applications are quite fine.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. I had the same problem on 3.8 too, I was hoping this was fixed in 3.9. I am sure it is not a hardware error, maybe the malloc changes have something to do with it? Wijnand
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. -ME On 3/12/06, Wijnand Wiersma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. I had the same problem on 3.8 too, I was hoping this was fixed in 3.9. I am sure it is not a hardware error, maybe the malloc changes have something to do with it? Wijnand -- http://erdelynet.com/ Support OpenBSD! http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Wijnand Wiersma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. I don't care what you think. You almost sound like some linux kiddo: hey, don't use windows, linux is teh best. Fuck off, I use what I want. Holy cow! You're bitching about Gnome not working and I offered an alternate solution. I _definitely_ deserved to have my head taken off for that (note the sarcasm). icewm is light and fast. If you don't like it, don't use it. Or, better yet, cuss someone out. That will solve all of your problems. Get a grip, man. -- http://erdelynet.com/ Support OpenBSD! http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:36:04 +0100 Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello dear OpenBSD fans. After playing during some time with OpenBSD 3.8 and understanding how it works, I wanted to give it a more serious try on my laptop. I know OpenBSD is not intended for desktop use, but anyway, I wanted to use some applications. The results have been very disapointing. GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. XFCE. Sometimes the panel suddenly disapears. I've been using xfce4 on openbsd for a couple years now, on my laptop that I use all day every day. I've never seen this happen. VLC. When I try to open a file FILE- OPENFILE-BROWSE. I am not able to see the directory and file listing properly. I get a list of strange named files. GNUMERIC. The application crashes after introducing a number on a cell- right click-format cells Dunno about 3.8, but this doesn't happen in current. Do the porters check that the ports work before a release? Am I doing something wrong? Its kinda hard to check every possible thing. If you could do that then software wouldn't have any bugs. Adam
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Wijnand Wiersma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. I don't care what you think. You almost sound like some linux kiddo: hey, don't use windows, linux is teh best. Fuck off, I use what I want. Holy cow! You're bitching about Gnome not working and I offered an alternate solution. I _definitely_ deserved to have my head taken off for that (note the sarcasm). icewm is light and fast. If you don't like it, don't use it. Or, better yet, cuss someone out. That will solve all of your problems. No, you were advocating something else I don't want to use. But ok, I should have been friendlier, I apologize. I just hate that kinda behaviour. I have a problem with gnome and the gnome guys should just fix it. Switching is NOT the solution. Wijnand
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. If we're getting into religious wars here WindowMaker works great for me. Greg
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. If we're getting into religious wars here WindowMaker works great for me. Greg Wow! I'm not trying to start a religious war. Who cares what window manager their using as long as they can conveniently get to the real applications they want to use. I take it back. Trying to help people sucks. -- http://erdelynet.com/ Support OpenBSD! http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Wijnand Wiersma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, you were advocating something else I don't want to use. But ok, I should have been friendlier, I apologize. I just hate that kinda behaviour. So, you know everything? You've tried everything? What if you were actually open to learning something new or trying something new and found that icewm was the BEST window manager you've ever seen? Or, perhaps you'd learn it doesn't work for you. You've got too much hate in you. Let go. Yes, I may have advocated something you don't want to use, but you're advocating using something that you even admit is broken. I have a problem with gnome and the gnome guys should just fix it. Switching is NOT the solution. In a perfect world software would be perfect. There'd be no bugs. All developers would make sure their applications work on OpenBSD (or the OS you're using). But that's not the case. You _might_ have to look at an alternate solution. If the gnome guys aren't fixing _your_ problem, maybe you should cuss them out, not the guy that's trying to help you by potentially giving you more information than you previously had. Then again, maybe cussing people out isn't the answer either. Wijnand -- http://erdelynet.com/ Support OpenBSD! http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. If we're getting into religious wars here WindowMaker works great for me. Greg Wow! I'm not trying to start a religious war. Who cares what window manager their using as long as they can conveniently get to the real applications they want to use. I take it back. Trying to help people sucks. No, that doesn't suck. It just wasn't helpfull. I know what other options are around, but I actually like gnome. But they have a broken panel, it will get fixed, no big deal. I was just hoping for someone that actually knows the current status of gnome-panel to respond. And no Micheal, I don't have too much hate in me and if you would know me you wouldn't say that. I just know what I want to run and I hope to see a particular problem solved, I don't need anyone else to tell me to run something entirely different, that is just annoying. I hope you understand my point. Wijnand
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Sunday, March 12, Wijnand Wiersma wrote: I have a problem with gnome and the gnome guys should just fix it. So, go bug the gnome guys. Switching is NOT the solution. I use crappy software, it crashes, I like the pain, I will not switch, please help. I have a LART here somewhere... --Toby.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On 3/12/06, Tobias Weingartner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday, March 12, Wijnand Wiersma wrote: I have a problem with gnome and the gnome guys should just fix it. So, go bug the gnome guys. Yes, I know. I didn't bug the OpenBSD guys about this, it is gnome's fault. Wijnand -- OpenBSD needs your help improving the softwareworld, please donate: http://openbsd.org/donations.html Yes big code using companies, that includes you!
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Michael Erdely wrote: On 3/12/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. If we're getting into religious wars here WindowMaker works great for me. Greg Wow! I'm not trying to start a religious war. Who cares what window manager their using as long as they can conveniently get to the real applications they want to use. I take it back. Trying to help people sucks. Hey Michael, Don't always take it to hart like that. Helping people is actually a good way to give back and you never know who else read the list that you might have helped as well. I for one didn't know about icewm and I guess I will try it. OK, running a window display on my OpenBSD is something I like to do, but in all honesty, it's something I like to do for the last 7 years and still today, I don't run one, so it show the importance of it doesn't it! (: I try before KDE, GNome and may be one or two more, but all to bulky if you asked me! I always end up going back to the console only and PuTTY when I need to access the servers from a Windows computer. I guess may be what I was/am looking for is something that could be like these windows manager, but that don't need the X packages, (to many security issues brought to light by Dave), but I guess it may doesn't exists. But again, may be it does. See the level of my ignorance on that side! I have to admit, it's always been something I wanted to run, but the needs always been very small that I never spend the time to actually do the research to see what can actually be done. I figure, one day, it will cross my screen on the list and then, may be it will be time to try it. Anyway, all that to say that you should not react like that. A few times you will be hang to the wall, sure happened to me as well, but that's not a reason not to help when you can. You never really know who else your answer will benefit. Many are silent and do read the list, always remember that! Doesn't mean what you suggest is good or bad, I have no clue, but it does give me something to try! (: Regards, Daniel
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Wijnand Wiersma wrote: On 3/12/06, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. I had the same problem on 3.8 too, I was hoping this was fixed in 3.9. I am sure it is not a hardware error, maybe the malloc changes have something to do with it? Wijnand Yes, I agree, it definitely is NOT a hardware issue. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello Joachim and others, Joachim Schipper wrote: Ports should work, actually, and OpenBSD should be suitable for desktop use. The flip side of the coin is that fancy GUIs are not too well loved amongst the developers, so support is typically less good than would be the case for, say, Fedora Linux. I understand, but I think It would be better not to release a software port if it has important bugs. The bugs I found are not rare bugs, they appear as soon as you start using the application. They should have been detected by the porters and if the application is not ready for release it should not be released. For example, gnumeric is NOT usable. Why has it been released?. However, I think I've heard of problems with the GNOME panel before (the others are new to me, at least, but I didn't check the bugs). You might want to: 1. Verify hardware I have tested the same ports on another completely different machine (a desktop computer) and failures are exactly the same. 2. Upgrade to -stable, if you have not already done so (coincidentally, this uses gcc a lot, which is a very good memory tester - as in, it will almost certainly SIGSEGV if your memory is bad; bad disks might get detected, too) I will wait for 3.9 release and will give them a try. 3. Verify your installation 4. Try to reproduce them, preferably on 3.9 5. Send a couple of bug reports. Don't forget the dmesg! Before sending bug reports, you'll want to search the bugs list. Joachim Thank you very much Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Greg Thomas wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. If we're getting into religious wars here WindowMaker works great for me. Greg Yes, WM also works fine here. But again, it is not a solution. GNOME should not be released in such buggy state. Ramiro.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Michael Erdely wrote: On 3/12/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/12/06, Michael Erdely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnome is too bloated anyway... try out icewm. Much better. If we're getting into religious wars here WindowMaker works great for me. Greg Wow! I'm not trying to start a religious war. Who cares what window manager their using as long as they can conveniently get to the real applications they want to use. I take it back. Trying to help people sucks. Suppose that I start installing GNOME cause I am used to it. I find that gnome-panel crashes so much that it is imposible to work. I switch to Window Maker. Great! it works. I expent some time to get used to it. I need a spreadsheet, I install gnumeric cause I like it, start it and fails the first time I format a cell. What should I do? switching to kspread? I think this is not good for OpenBSD reputation. The bugs I found mean that the porters just compiled the aplication, started it, but they did not check that it work properly. I looks like a poor job, a second class OS. Regards. Ramiro. -- http://erdelynet.com/ Support OpenBSD! http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Ramiro, Do you really think you're improving the situation by mourning in our mailing lists? Have you tried debugging the problems you mention? Have you tried contacting the respective ports maintainers to work out those issues with them? Did you bother to report at all? Just pointing at people and saying things don't work may be easy, but is definitely not a constructive approach. And if all you want to do is crying, go run something else. Nobody is forcing you to run OpenBSD. But if you do, be at least thankful to the people who do ports for their effort. That's best done by respecting their work and helping them fix bugs that you might encounter. My kind suggestion: go ahead, do it. I'm sure they're eager to see diffs from you. -p.
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Hello, Yes, WM also works fine here. But again, it is not a solution. GNOME should not be released in such buggy state. Please respect the amount of effort it takes our developers to port huge applications like GNOME. Such applications must be debugged and patched to even run, let alone in a stable state. As you have learned, you will upset people if you post a list of bugs to our list, saying that our efforts are dissappointing. At least you could have posted each of these bugs to ports@ with a DMESG and output of pkg_info? Its worth mentioning that once apps have been ported, patches are sent back to the developers of the apps, but whether they import the fixes or not is out of control of the OpenBSD community. Regards Edd
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
On Sunday 12 March 2006 23:24, Wijnand Wiersma wrote: On 3/12/06, Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNOME-PANEL. It crashes very often, so GNOME is not usable. I had the same problem on 3.8 too, I was hoping this was fixed in 3.9. It's not. Perhaps, if anyone who wants it makes an effort to fix it, after 3.9 it will be updated to a recent version. Maybe it should even be marked as BROKEN in 3.9. Lars Hansson
Re: OpenBSD 3.8 ports quality?
Ramiro Aceves [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, WM also works fine here. But again, it is not a solution. GNOME should not be released in such buggy state. OK, then just pretend it wasn't. Debian has like 25 packagers working on Gnome. It's not the focus of OpenBSD. http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/meta-gnome2.html Take a look there and see what bugfixes could be ported to OBSD. If you have an itch, then scratch it and submit some patches. Otherwise, you know what to do: run Debian. Or Arch. Or XP. -- KBK Ion forever
