Dan:
There is nothing wrong with saying the city of Los Angeles experiences
an earthquake. We use the term experience in various ways. But when it
comes to the MOQ we should strive to be as precise as possible.
Craig [previously]:
So are you saying that when the city of Los Angeles
Dan:
There is nothing wrong with saying the city of Los Angeles experiences
an earthquake. We use the term experience in various ways. But when it
comes to the MOQ we should strive to be as precise as possible.
Craig [previously]:
So are you saying that when the city of Los Angeles
Dan:
(static quality) is a memory of experience, not experience itself.
Are you using 'memory' is the usual way? Or does a metal spring, for instance,
have a memory
of its former shape?
I believe there are number of philosophic systems, notably Ayn Rand’s
“Objectivism,” that call the “I” or
[Michael R. Brown]
We think about time in terms of space, as revealed in the way we talk about it
We think/talk about space in either 1- (distance), 2- (area) or 3-dimensions
(volume).
We think of time in 1-dimension (timeline). The fact that we think/talk about
both
space time in
...fascism grew out of socialism...
I like that way of putting it.
Craig
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MRB,
I found the last joke (*/Sound Thinking/*) sexist, ageist corporatist.
Craig
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[Ant]
Errol Flynn...can always be trusted to let you down at critical moments!
Ant,
Is this what you're referring to?
During pre-war operations from an aircraft carrier off Hawaii, the VB-3 dive
bombing squadron (bearing the High Hat emblem of Bombing Squadron Four)
arrives in a wingover
http://www.booktv.org/Watch/13729/Book+TV+at+FreedomFest+Connor+Boyack+Latterday+Liberty+A+Gospel+Approach+to+Government+and+Politics.aspx
Craig
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[Hagen]
we insert the notion of “I” we’re posited some little, solid entity that
floats along, not as stream, but like a cork in a stream.
We see ourselves as solid corks, not as the actual stream we are.
If the stream is a stream of consciousness, this isn't right.
There is the
To the extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of quality
it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows Dynamic Quality, which
is undefinable, one's behavior is free.
(LILA, Chapter 12)
[Marsha]
How does this work for those of you who would like to make
[Dave]
social is now and was in 1991 when Lila was published commonly defined
as...[insert Wikipedia definition]
Yes, of course, but the definition of 'social' is not what is at issue.
Rather, animal social is at level 2 of the MoQ, while only human is at level 3.
Refer to Lila rather than
[Dave]
Why would one arbitrarily limit [the social level] to humans with no real
reason?
The spov levels are neither arbitrary nor without real reason?
What you are asking for is something that distinguishes the human social 3rd
level
from other animals' 2nd level.
IMHO this distinction lies
[Dan]
I cannot know the sun will rise tomorrow until I directly experience the sun
rising tomorrow. At that moment, I know.
IMHO this isn't right. Why can't I set up a sensor that the rising sun sets
off, so that I know the sun is rising, without directly experiencing the rising
sun.
Worse
[Jan Anders]
the victims use biological strategies. They run like stupid chickens and
every individual becomes an easy target. If
they instead stick together and act socially they can overrun the villain in
seconds.
It depends on the dynamics. If it is possible to disperse far enough fast
[Dave]
I think one of the weakness of Pirsig's ideas is that it can lead
people to believe that for instance emotions (supposedly exclusive to the
biological level) have no effect on reasoning (supposedly exclusive to the
intellectual level) when in the heat of the moment (even a calm
[John]
according to MOQ, intellect evolves from the social level, not from the
biological.
It seems to be saying that we are born with a blank slate, and concepts get
written on it
entirely from our social interactions...and I can't understand how
there could be no hardware functionality
Books That Shaped America, the Library of Congress asked curators and experts
to compile a list of books that have influenced us as a nation.
Included: The Federalist (1787), William James, Pragmatism (1907) Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged (1957)
Unfortunately, no Pirsig.
Craig
Moq_Discuss
http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/
First, a comment about polls: if you ask people what their favorite book is,
the winner will always be The Bible. Because Christians will vote as a bloc
for it, while the votes of non-Christians (even if they were more numerous)
would be
[Matt]
I'm wondering how you understand the difference between novels
of ideas and literary novels.
I don't have a full theory of novels, but I distinguish novels whose emphasis
is on (a) plot,
(b) character, (c) author's ideas or (d) literary device.
Examples:
(a) suspense or mystery
[MRB]
[Rand's] ultimate heroes - Roark and Galt - were also both working-class guys.
Not so. They were both professionals (architect engineer, respectively.)
She placed high value on productive work, whether from the upper-, middle- or
lower-class.
Craig
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[Jan Anders]
I don't think that Rand's view on society has much to do with Pirsig's.
The most important connection lies in their emphasis on values individual
arete.
Craig
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[Tuukka] Virtaperko mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Thu May 31 01:57:36 PDT 2012
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All,
Lately I've had a hard time figuring out why should I
[Tuukka]
They will not tell me why
they hold the number four as sacred, as in, that there have to be
exactly four levels of static value, and a MOQ with eight or sixteen
levels is not MOQ or at least not interesting in any way whatsoever.
Four isn't sacred, but four is what has been shown
[Ham]
Where does this nothingness come from?
A Zen question if there ever was one!
Craig
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[Arlo]
What we consider true is...a pattern of value that 'works' in such and such
context
What we consider true characterizes belief, not truth.
But as you say it's not all about us. What about the attraction of iron
filings to a magnet?
Do they find that useful? Maybe it's a nuisance.
[Arlo]
Are you suggesting, within the MOQ, there is 'truth' that is NOT provisional?
Let's start with an easy one: 2 + 2 = 4.
What is your possible revision?
[Arlo]
A speck of dust has a shape because the inorganic components of that speck of
dust have found value in attaching
themselves is
[Craig, previously]
2 + 2 = 4. What possible revision?
[Horse]
Doesn't 2 + 2 = 4 by convention upon which it is provisional?
Symbols have meaning, which is determined by convention/use. Conventions are
provisional; they can do
change. No one doubts this (I hope). Is this what is meant by
One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of things with
the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future this explanation must
be taken provisionally; as useful until something better comes along. (LILA)
Notice Pirsig does not say here that truth is provisional,
CORRECTION:
[Arlo}
In fact, I'd argue that within a MOQ, 'right' would mean 'useful'. To the
sailor trying to determine which map to
use, he'd examine his context, and select the best map to get him where he
needed to be, and he might say
that was the right map for that task, but 'right'
[Arlo]
I was thinking in terms of the polar versus Cartesian maps. What is 'right'
if it is not tied to pragmatic
experience? The whole notion of 'objective truth' (which is what 'right'
implies) is part of what the MOQ
(what is better) leaves behind. To answer your specific questions,
[Arlo]
If we are using a shared time system, and we agree to meet at 2pm and I am
late, and you say I was here at the right time,
then okay. But again, its about shared usefulness, nothing more.
Ah, but there is more (see your penultimate sentence). You're leaving out the
agreement!
[Tuukka]
1) the MOQ has to include those biological patterns
2) All patterns of the MOQ involve language.
3) But in a literal (non-metaphoric) interpretation of the MOQ,
every pattern is necessarily based on language
4) the MOQ...is not an intellectual pattern. As the MOQ encompasses all
[Tuukka]
I know this may sound silly, but instead of trying to be useful, I was trying
to be right...
[Arlo]
your difficulty is approaching this from the SOM view,
and you've clearly just demonstrated this in the above statement.
So is SOM not useful or is trying to be right only applicable
[Alan Gewirth, Wikipedia]
[Gewirth's] student Roger Pilon has developed a libertarian version of
Gewirth's theory.
Ant,
Are you familiar with Pilon's work or can you recommend it?
Craig
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CORRECTED SUBJECT LINE:
[Alan Gewirth, Wikipedia]
[Gewirth's] student Roger Pilon has developed a libertarian version of
Gewirth's theory.
Ant,
Are you familiar with Pilon's work or can you recommend it?
Craig
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[John]
I dislike the initials ZMM...It leaves out the A for art
ZAMM more bang, but ZMM (pronounced ZOOOMM) has that motorcycle feel.
Craig
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[Ant]
theories of empirical science are concerned with corresponding experiences
that are...not
particular
[Pirsig]
“In the MOQ repeated experience of the pattern gives it its “thingness.”
[Tuukka]
It is very unclear, how theories of empirical science should have no
corresponding
[Mark (as an empirical scientist)]
Data has no pattern until it is subjected to a theory. It is the
theory which provides the pattern...the data is completely neutral
and could care less about the theory.
Quite the opposite...the data couldn't care less about the theory.
Your science lesson
[Tuukka]
Nonrelativizability is not a property of a predicate, but a property of
the way in which it is used.
the meanings of nonrelativizably used predicates are random, from a logical
point of view.
If we want to write unambiguous text that may be rationally understood, we
may not use
[Tuukka]
Nonrelativizably used predicates cannot be proven to have, or to not have,
any properties.
[Tuukka]
I gave an example of a nonrelativizably used
predicate earlier, in the context of the problem of induction.
Another predicate amateurs commonly use nonrelativizably is everything
[Tuukka]
A common fallacy in metaphysics, at least among amateurs, is that we
have a predicate, which is expected to mean something, that is not
defined.
But historically, predicates do mean something, even before they are defined.
[Craig, previously]
I'm not certain one can perceive
[Arlo]
Let me stop and ask, do you think there is 'one' MOQ, as evidenced by
the determinant 'the', or do you think there is/can be multiple MOQs?
[Craig, previously]
I think there is a distinction between THE MoQ AN MoQ.
THE MoQ is the metaphysics which started with Pirsig (influenced by
Arlo,
Thank you for your thoughtful response to my post.
This is embarrassing. I wrote a sketchy outline of what I wanted to think
about this topic
hit SEND instead of SAVE.
So rather than respond to your response to what I didn't mean to say, I'll
start over:
I think Pirsig's distinction
[Marsha]
I agree there is Quality (Reality), which may be experienced as static
(patterned) and/or Dynamic (undifferentiated),
or from my particular point-of-view patterned experience and unpatterned
experience. Nowhere have I suggested one
should rely on ONLY unconceptualized experience,
“whatever conceptual model we come up with, it cannot ultimately serve as a
substitute for Reality.
And while we might be tempted to shrug off this observation, ignoring its
implications is potentially devastating.
I think just the opposite.
I think the conceptual model we come up with is
[Arlo]
Can Pirsig be wrong about the MOQ?
Consider 3 different points of reference:
a) inconsistencies
b) logical consequences
c) undecidables
a) What if Pirsig says 2 inconsistent things about the MoQ?
Then either the Pirsig's view embraces inconsistencies or Pirsig has changed
his mind.
b)
[Marsha]
“whatever conceptual model we come up with, it cannot ultimately serve as a
substitute for Reality.
And while we might be tempted to shrug off this observation, ignoring its
implications is potentially devastating.
[Craig, previously]
I think just the opposite.
I think the
[Tuukka]
In this case, the error can be found in the materialist's assumption,
that he is speaking of the same thing as the idealist.
Berkeley says the rock is a mental object.
Samuel Johnson kicks the rock.
Did Johnson kick a mental object?
Berkeley says Yes; Johnson says No.
Are they talking
[Tuukka]
One such predicate would be everything that exists. We might
define this predicate to have a certain property, such as that of being
physical. In this case we would have constructed an ontology known as
physicalism.
Tuukka,
In everything that exists is physical
(x)Px
(x)
[Tuukka]
http://www.todellisuudenomistaja.net/suhteutuvuus-ja-sen-seurauksia/#comment-802
if you understand the kind of language used in the text, you will get an idea
of what
nonrelativizably used predicate is about.
Tuukka,
I understand the kind of language used in the text, but without
Hi Ian,
I thought Wikipedia did a good job in distinguishing anthropocentrism from
the anthropic principle.
So far these entries haven't been altered and remain a good starting point.
Carter is mentioned so it could eventually lead back to Psybertron.
Craig
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[Mark]
Anthropocentrism means that the way we see things is the way they must be.
[Ian]
[Anthropocentrism means that] the way we see things is the way we must see
them.
[Wikipedia]
Anthropocentrism describes an analysis from the perspective that human beings
are the central, only or most
CORRECTED SUBJECT LINE:
[Mark]
Anthropocentrism means that the way we see things is the way they must be.
[Ian]
[Anthropocentrism means that] the way we see things is the way we must see
them.
[Wikipedia]
Anthropocentrism describes an analysis from the perspective that human beings
are
[Judy]
Platt had triple by-pass and valve replacement surgery
This should put to rest the rumor that Platt had no heart.
Some one who is not liberal when young, has no heart.
Some one who is liberal when old, has no head.
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[Marsha]
can anything at all be apprehended apart from one's complex of cognitive
processes?
Not a universe, not billions-of-years, not humans, and not advanced
civilizations.
Try going in the opposite direction.
Can iron filings apprehend a magnet arrange themselves in a pattern?
Can a
[dmb]
I'm not sure how this e-row even got started...
e-row...nice neo-logism. Did you originate it?
Craig
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[Craig, previously]
Can iron filings apprehend a magnet arrange themselves in a pattern?
Can a mother mouse apprehend the cry of her joey?
[Marsha]
Not iron filings, a magnet, mother mouse or her joey are apprehended apart
from human cognitive processes.
I HATE to say this, but it depends
In regard to ideas, which produce what we know as matter:
it should be remembered how insignificant humans might be.
Firstly, the universe existed billions of years before humans if humans
demise, might exist billions of years after.
Secondly, there might be civilizations way more advanced than
[David]
These are ideas which you communicate to me...we are talking. And we can only
ever talk in ideas.
These are ideas which you communicate to me.
This seems to be an example of the fallacy of mistaking the menu for the food.
1) Beef, chicken fish are on the menu
2) Only words are on the
[David]
Ideas come before hawks and mice.
I realize this is your view, but as Marsha has pointed out, for the MoQ the
order is inorganic,
biological, social and intellectual spov.
[Craig, previously]
A hawk circles overhead, then swoops down on a mouse. How does it distinguish
the mouse
[Dan]
I reject overlaying our human characteristics on a hawk.
But you don't reject a hawk's preferring...or don't you think humans have
preferences too?
[Dan]
And if you think the MOQ is a bad metaphysics what are you doing here?
I know you are but what am I?
Craig
Moq_Discuss mailing
[Dan]
Predators do not recognize patterns of prey...they exhibit preferences.
[Craig, previously]
But you don't reject a hawk's preferring
[Dan]
You might need to re-read what I wrote. I said we can infer that hawks
exhibit preferences, not that they have preferences.
I guess we both needed
[Craig]
Inorganic patterns (iron filings) recognize other inorganic
patterns (magnets); biological patterns (predators) recognize the patterns of
their prey.
[David]
How do you know that?
A hawk circles overhead, then swoops down on a mouse. How does it distinguish
the mouse from
[David]
The reason we call them this is because they are only ever recognised as
patterns *because*
of our intellect. They only exist *because* of our intellect.
I don't think this is Pirsig's view. Inorganic patterns (iron filings)
recognize other inorganic
patterns (magnets); biological
Good job, david.
I couldn't always distinguish who was speaking, so I guess good job
to all of you.
Everyone listen!
http://www.partiallyexaminedlife.com/2012/02/03/episode-50-pirsigs-zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle-maintenance/#comments
Craig
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[Tuukka]
I'm okay with artistic intellectual property being given away for free,
if there is basic income guarantee and no welfare traps. If we don't
want that, why would we even want public libraries?
Good point!
Public libraries are an example of the government buying 1 copy of a book
When where's the podcast?
Craig
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[dmb]
The Bozeman Daily Chronicle published an article about Pirsig's old friends...
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/100/newsmakers/article_1c0afdfc-2ebe-11e1-b4ab-001871e3ce6c.html
Nice find,
Craig
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[Tuukka]
Understanding triumphs cooperation.
Tuukka,
We don't normally say (in American English, anyway), for example,
Understanding triumphs cooperation.
***British English speakers should correct me if I'm wrong.***
We would say Understanding triumphs OVER cooperation or (possibly)
[Ham]
It's unclear why the author characterized platonists as
realists, inasmuch as Plato is regarded as the father of Idealism.
Platonists ( Plato) are considered realists because the former hold that
reality precedes
our IDEA of it.
Plato's idealism consisted in his Forms as IDEALs, not as
...as in an elegant mathematical proof.
Craig
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[John]
I swear. If I keep this up my wife is gonna take this thing off me.
I think those were John Wayne Bobbitt's last words before his wife reached for
the knife.
Craig
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John...you've got to write this stuff down where you can get to it...Craig
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[Steve]
What happens when a few hundred people own pretty much
everything? Would even THAT be a problem for you?
That's hard to say.
But we should look at some more plausible scenarios.
First of all, let's deal with the current 1% vs. the 99%.
1% of 350 million people is 3.5 million, so we're
Just when we're told The End of the World Has Come, we're told The Class War
Has Begun.
They can't both be right!
As much as I wish the Occupiers luck, I think they are going about it the
wrong way.
It does no good to go to Wall St. say the system is not working. The fat
cats look
at their
Occupy Wall Street has received over $500,000 in donations
they're keeping it in a BANK. How Fey is that?
Craig
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http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/24354-free-will-as-an-open-scientific-problem/
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[Steve]
I think it may help to see what Pirsig is
doing as making a mention-use distinction to avoid any
metaphysics-reality confusion.
IMHO there are overlapping distinctions here:
Reality/words-about-reality/words-about-words.
The use-mention distinction is about the last two.
Craig
[Steve]
the notion
of “seeing clearly” presupposes an objective Way-Things-Really-Are to
which subjective philosophical systems should try to conform.
This view is self-refuting.
Someone who sees that there isn't a single truth Way-Things-Really-Are,
sees clearly.
Craig
[Marsha]
RMP has said that static quality represents all that can be conceptualized.
Note the word 'represent' has 2 opposed meanings:
(1) = symbolize (e.g., this oval on the map represents Manhatten)
(2) = instantiate (e.g., the Komono dragon represents the closest living
relative
of the
[Steve]
The MOQ says that Quality comes first which produces ideas which
produce what we know as causality. It is common sense to presume that
causality comes first and produces ideas. However, as if to further
the confusion, the MOQ says that the idea that causality comes first
is a high
- Original Message -
From: craig...@comcast.net
To: craig...@comcast.net
Cc: moq discuss moq_discuss@lists.moqtalk.org
Sent: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:35:50 - (UTC)
Subject: Re: [MD] Causation
[Steve]
The MOQ says that Quality comes first which produces ideas which
produce what we know
[Steve]
that same cosmology that puts
inorganic patterns historically before intellectual ones itself is an
idea which shows that ideas come before inorganic, biological, and
social patterns in the MOQ's _epistemology_ which is also its
ontology.
If it were correct that inorganic patterns
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPST/structuralismworkshop.html
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[Steve]
what is gained as freedom by saying that the will
is part random?
Part of free will lies in considering options.
Sometimes this consists in thinking things we never thought of before,
imagining their consequences choosing.
Craig
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For years, politics has been represented as a choice between the left (or
liberal) and right (or conservative). Growing numbers of thinkers agree this
is far too narrow a view—and excludes millions of people. The political map on
the Quiz gives a much more accurate representation of the true,
[Craig, previously]
Parfit's argument shows only that a causally inevitable act can be
morally wrong, not that the actor is morally responsible for the act.
[Steve]
What does morally responsible mean to you?
Probably the same as for you.
In the case of a person being morally responsible for
[Horse]
Neither you nor I experienced the unleashing of the atomic bomb so for
us there is no DQ (or experience or whatever you want to call it)
involved so all we have is a description of the events and to this
extent our knowledge is illusory and not real.
Compare the case of someone who
[Tuukka]
we don't know what social quality is.
It has only been described in Pirsig's writing, but these descriptions
cannot belong to the MOQ, because the MOQ is exclusively intellectual
quality.
This is the all too frequent mistake in the MD of confusing the food for the
menu.
REALITY
[Jan-Anders]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfCQ-t7xY0
This version has completely ruined the old song.
They have left out the central pun--the raison d'être of the entire song--when
they
replaced 'whetstone' with 'stone'.
Craig
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[Craig, previously]
This version has completely ruined the old song.
They have left out the central pun--the raison d'?tre of the entire
song--when they
replaced 'whetstone' with 'stone'.
[Jan-Anders]
Well, in the version I remember with Harry Belafonte, Odetta Holmes say
'stone' too:
[Derek Parfit]
For some act
of ours to be wrong, because we ought to have acted differently, it
must be true that we could have acted differently. But the relevant
sense of ‘could’ is the hypothetical, motivational sense. And this
sense of ‘could’ is compatible with determinism. Even if our
We become aware of [others'] being aware of us,
and that in turn causes us to become aware of ourselves.
Robert C. Solomon, The Little Philosophy Book
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1) There are apes only when something can be recognized as an ape.
2) Something can be recognized as an ape only if there is a concept of 'ape'.
3) There were no concepts before there were humans.
4) :. There were no apes before there were humans.
Craig
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[Horse]
Apes weigh 800 lbs.
A small car weighs 800lbs
:. An ape is a small car
Interesting...I'll have to think about it.
Craig
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[Arlo]
all patterns are ipso facto moral patterns
Yes.
An analogy:
Everything has temperature: some high (hot), some low (cold).
Everything has a value: some high (good), some low (bad).
Craig
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[Steve]
Pirsig does not say that when we choose to follow DQ we are free. That
would be absurd.
Do you have any support for the claim in your last sentence?
Craig
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[Craig, previously]
1) Apes weigh 800 lbs.
2) Concepts do not weigh 800 lbs.
3) :. Apes are not concepts.
[Dan]
1) my... that's a fat one...
It's the proverbial 800 lb. gorilla in the room.
WARNING: It doesn't like to be called fat.
[Dan]
2) but weighing 800 pounds is a concept
Weighing 800
1) Apes weigh 800 lbs.
2) Concepts do not weigh 800 lbs.
3) :. Apes are not concepts.
Craig
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[Dan]
Sometimes I wonder if Craig is really Rick Perry incognito.
Then you'll like my new book:
http://www.booktv.org/Featured/12084/Fed+Up+Our+Fight+to+Save+America+from+Washington.aspx
Craig
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