Hi All
On 12 Jan 99, at 1:52, Glen Dickey wrote:
Rules without a rational are annoying at best. If the group is going to willing
submit to some form of regulation, then it seems to follow that the group should
benefit in some way from doing so. Could some kind soul please enlighten me as
.
Anyway, I could probably go on for a lot longer but suffice to say that I am in
agreement
with David here that the Libertarian Socialist ethos is not confused (nor is it
wrong). I'm
also in agreement with David as this is the political ideology to which I also
subscribe.
Horse
MOQ
st :)
One point I would make here is also from my last post:
Horse
If you don't take an active part in the
governance of your society then you have no grounds for complaint
So how comes you've not contributed more in order to raise the standard? Two posts
this
month as opposed to 31
Fintan
On 23 Feb 99, at 20:00, Fintan Dunne wrote:
Unsubscribe me please.
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Horse
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up our own minds.
I'll see if I can find some of them. Thanks again.
Horse
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ementation is apparent at a social level the value that precedes it
is
intellect.
Anyone else?
Horse
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on of guilt is for the benefit of the institutions of society.
On 2 Mar 99, at 7:47, Kevin Sanchez wrote:
In answering Rick's quiry, Horse reverts to the vaguest of terms - justice.
I have no such folly to believe "justice" is necessary in the MOQ. Justice
is a stuffy Western idea
a Rational point of view?
Horse? Anyone else?
Gee, thanks Jeff :) Why don't I keep my fingers shut.
This is a tricky one, to be sure.
If we look at the above passage in the context of Nirvana then a rational approach
would
hardly seem to do it justice. However Pirsigs rephrasing of it, seems to give
st to do it in a less structured fashion - suck it and see?
Horse
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its URL).
8) Members should refrain from swearing, using offensive language and
personal attacks on other members. Abuse, in any form, will not be
tolerated.
***
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Hi Kevin and folks
On 7 Mar 99, at 1:47, Kevin Sanchez wrote:
Horse answered my statement - that justice should left out of the MoQ - by
questioning whether my following statement does not embody the essence of
justice:
"Therefore, I say, the MoQ supports the concept behind &quo
]
Horse
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in
terms of
the simplest explanation. I believe that Roger is applying the principle of parsimony
or
Ockham's (Occam's) Razor to the foundations of the MOQ.
Horse
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ugh time to consider your post properly yet but
I
shall do so over the next couple of days or so.
Horse
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I'm happy with any of the following as they essentially say the same thing:
1) Change (Horse)
2) Potential (Jonathan)
3) How things become (Magnus)
Ialso agree with much of what David B. says and what I have said myself in the past.
DQ is
essentially unknowable as knowing is a static value.
I'm
Hiya
On 10 Apr 99, at 17:18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
PS Horse and Kevin, have you noticed that Kevin's mail is getting incorrect
date stamps in your alt.venus MOQ discuss post library?? I don't know
why.But I suspect this pattern is some kind of SOM conspiracy designed to
sow
thanks to Peter O'Neil for his timely and early warning.
Hopefully no-one has been inconvenienced by this problem and
everyone had the good sense to check the file before running it.
Charter and rules follow
Horse
MOQ_DISCUSS Administrator
TO ALL MEMBERS OF MOQ_DISCUSS
F-PROT HAS WARNED OF A VIRUS CONTAINED IN GLOVE'S
POST OF Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:28:22 +0100 (BST)
DO NOT OPEN THIS FILE
DISCARD IMMEDIATELY
Horse
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ual sphere.
As for "the connecting point" in MOQ terms perhaps this is the point
at which one "Abandons all static patterns in favor of pure Dynamic
Quality"?
Horse
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have you (or anyone else) come
across a term which describes the position between when faith is
first questioned and when it becomes either supportable or dogmatic.
Horse
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to just rely on the good-will, common sense and
recognition of Quality of contributing members.
Please read through the following Charter and Rules.
Enjoy.
Horse
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*
MOQ_DISCUSS CHARTER
The MOQ_DISCUSS
have
any comments?
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s pure
social level garbage. It does not exist, it has never existed and, in all
likelihood will never exist in anything like the form you seem to
believe in.
Horse
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HORSE GETS THE HORN TURNS INTO UNICORN, DISCOVERS
HE IS ONLY A FICTION IN SOMEONE ELSES REALITY AND
DISAPPEARS UP HIS OWN BOTTOM IN AN ENORMOUS PUFF
OF, ER. SOMETHING QUITE PUNGENT AND RELAXING (AND
CONSIDERING THE SIZE OF HIS HORN YOU CAN'T IMAGINE THE
PAIN INVOLVED!)
On 23 May 99
bly explain this better than me but I
thought I'd lob a few initial thoughts in to try and get things started.
Horse
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ople whose philosophies
and ideas you don't like on hearsay and cheap prejudice at least be
consistent.
Horse
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. But exactly the same
case can be made against Capitalism as well and normally is.
Except that the intellectual value of Capitalism is of a lower order.
Horse
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into it to
show that what they did was wrong? I think you've missed the point
of what I've said. The accomplishments of an individual stand on their
own as good or bad. The character of the person is irrelevant to the
argument.
Horse
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at is good?' my answer is that good
is good and there is an end to the matter").
As you seem to espouse a non-naturalist ethic, Magnus, may I
ask you how you discern this 'good?' Intuition perhaps? Horse
pointed out that this whole question derives from the fact/value
debate which bri
Hi There
On 27 May 99, at 5:44, Struan Hellier wrote:
Horse:
"As Struan has mentioned Moore's position regarding good, and
Moore's position is solidly emotivist, I'd like to say something about it.
When Moore states: "If I am asked "What is good", my answer is that good
d coats.
Oh well, I suppose all the world is out of step but me.
Hmmm!!! :)
Horse
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have inadvertently
closed the door to Dynamic Quality in the buying and selling of
things. They close it because the metaphysical structure of their
objectivity never told them Dynamic Quality exists." (Lila, Chp. 17)
Horse:
"On the other hand the conservatives who keep trumpeting ab
ange and warped notions.
Bob replies:
You have made my day. Thank you.
No problem. Now you can read the book (again?).
As I don't see this argument going anywhere this is the last post I'll
be doing for this subject.
Horse
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the loaves and fishes to make a bit of spare cash.
Why not try reading Lila again Bob. This time with an open mind and
without the idea of justifying your strange and warped notions.
Horse
"Making history, it turned out, was quite easy.
It was what got written down.
It was as simple as that!
. I'm not doing this maliciously
and I know it's a pain, but when 75% of the mail I receive is bounced
from mailservers due to non-delivery I'm not going to bother to be
patient and wait.
(Technobabble Mod OFF)
Horse
Administrator - MOQ_DISCUSS Mailing List
ion? Again there was no need
except for revenge. Similarly, Dresden was a revenge bombing and
also quite unnecessary.
Horse
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Parliament with honest intentions and we had to give him bad press.
There's no justice!
Horse
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leave much time for other things - but the activity is
only temporary and normal service will be resumed shortly.
I'll get around to some of the other points in another post but it's late
now and I need some sleep.
Horse
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would make a final request to MD members to wait until the end of
the months discussion on the LS before taking it up over here and
**please** do not to cross-post.
Horse
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ome out.
It doesn't happen too often. Normal service will return very shortly.
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--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
From: "Clark" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Pirsig interview.
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:52:07 -0500
Squad,
There is an interview with Pirsig which can be found
Hi All
On 26 Jul 99, at 21:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
ROGER PROPOSES A REBUTAL TO ROBERT'S CHALLENGE
ON THE MD
Robert, Horse, Bo and the SQUAD
Robert's recent LS post, titled "Cartesian Not SOM Dualism" was pretty much
a point-by-point negation of the Metaphysics of Qu
Hi Struan
On 24 Aug 99, at 17:56, Struan Hellier wrote:
Greetings,
Prolific, if a little unoriginal. :-)
Horse?
Not quite sure really. Seems to be a case of someone letting a friend
use their machine and the friend subscribes to the list.
Pillock!
Still I've unsubscribed him/her so
e hysteria that is a trademark of the
reaction to this culture.
Have a good read
Horse
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Cheers
Horse
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more difficult
and requires some thought.
To use a moral compass you need to know more than where you are and where you want to
go. A good first step is to work out if the damn thing works!
Horse
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On 18 Dec 99, at 11:03, David Buchanan wrote:
pt.
I deny it. I've only had two drinks all evening.
:)
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Hi Platt and Squad
I've snipped a few bits here and there in order to abbreviate the post a little but
hopefully kept
the core text.
On 18 Dec 99, at 15:53, Platt Holden wrote:
Hi Horse:
Glad to see you jump in on the morality discussions. As usual, your post is
provocative
Hi Walter
I've snipped some of your post - hope you don't mind.
On 19 Dec 99, at 14:43, Walter Balestra wrote:
I am interested in
what Horse is going to answer to Platt's questions about the absoluteness
of universal morality vs the relativity of answers to moral questions when
made
interpretations and conclusions, so why not
show
how either he is incorrect or you (and others) are correct within the context of the
MoQ
without flaming, being unpleasant or using Emotivist argument.
Think you can do it?
Horse
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Hi Platt Squad
On 22 Dec 99, at 22:40, Platt Holden wrote:
Horse, your recent contributions to the discussion are like a breath of fresh
air. I cannot hope to match the depth and breadth of your answers to my
questions. You make a good case for context as opposed to
contextualism
Hi Rog
On 27 Dec 99, at 22:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Horse,
Why all the sudden doubts about free will and the MOQ? I know you always
thought Pirsig's explanation was funky (I agree), but you seem to have
shifted to a more sceptical view than before..?
Doubts? Scepticism? Who
to patterns that
have optimal potential to let DQ be realised to the best extend. Now we have
Morality as a continuum towards the optimal realization of DQ, but that leaves
us with the nature of the Good.
HORSE CONTINUES:
What emerges from a conflict between (or within) levels
g as the traditional Moral is to the MoQ moral. If you begin with a completely different metaphysical starting point but continue to try and superimpose traditional definitions on top you get the sort of problems we are seeing now.
MoQ Moral and S/O Moral are as different as MoQ Good and S/O
To unsubscribe mail to:
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Or alternatively go to the MoQ web-site for more details.
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Sorry Chaps - Minor typo at the start of my post - it should have read as follows:
Hi Struan and Jonathan
On 9 Jan 00, at 13:17, Struan Hellier wrote:
X is perfectly sufficient, more concise, less confusing and very elegant.
And says nothing! - X has no content, no context, and certainly
hink about includes everything then the dichotomy(division) of subject and object is
the
division of everything into either subject or object (or both in some cases). This
doesn't
sound too far from the notion of A subject/object metaphysics which could include any
or
many of the western philosophical
hoose and experience the world.
Horse
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Hi All
On 19 Feb 00, at 12:55, Matthew Ketchum wrote:
Horse wrote:
SNIP
Interesting comment. You seem to have revealed the paradox of multiple
truths.
I wasn't aware that a paradox exists.
If I'm right that there is only one way that reality is, then we
can simply dismiss all
in bringing it up was merely to remind those using the terminology - not
to
admonish or ridicule or whatever. Objectivity and subjectivity are useful in their own
limited
way but as with most S/O thinking, tend to severely limit the scope of a concept and
the
means of expression.
Horse
, oddly enough, is the same as when I was
Myers-Briggs categorised about 4 years ago. I also spent a day on an MB course
learning
the basics. There doesn't seem to be much knowledge about exactly why it works, just
that
it does - or perhaps that was just the counsellor!. Strange.
Horse
Hi All
On 19 Mar 00, at 17:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
BTW, should people have more faith in God or Science.?
Should people have faith?
Horse
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5 Mar 2000, at 22:58, Jonathan B. Marder wrote:
So when Horse asks:
Should people have faith?
I really don't know what question he is really asking.
Furthermore, when Horse says:
I [snip] disagree that [snip] we cannot live without faith...
I ask him if he really BELIEVES this? This is especially
Hi Jonathan and MD
On 28 Mar 2000, at 10:11, Jonathan Marder wrote:
Horse brings up the TRUTH word again in its objective sense, to which I must
give my oft repeated statement that TRUTH and REALITY are not the same.
No. I used the TRUE word. TRUTH (for me) is a whole other kettle
values? That the nature of our experience is primarily
moral?
But if reality consists of value, value and nothing but value then logically we would
HAVE to
sense value before anything else.What else is there?
Horse
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with and for how long.
Problem? What problem?
Horse
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en banging on about for some time now - autopoesis - but
this
doesn't seem to be continued later in the paper.
Anyway, I'll bugger off and have another good read of it and let some other folk say a
few
words before I come back for another go.
Horse
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and it's easier or
more
appropriate to discuss it here then that's what happens.
MOQ.ORG offers the luxury of choice - no-one else does as far as I'm aware.
Horse
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) are the
same thing.
Obviously they are related and closely dependent but not, I believe, identical.
Horse
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To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions
. Even fewer are still engaged in keeping MOQ.ORG going and
providing everyone else with the means to discuss Pirsigs work.
Well done Glove. Reserve me a hard copy of the book when it comes out - signed by the
Author of course.
Horse
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her. For example,
Eliminative
Materialism denies the existence of anything EXCEPT matter and Paul Churchland is
considered enough of a serious philosopher to be included on philosophy courses.
JON:
I'm no expert, but I think he may be right.
I'm not an expert (or a professional, but I am ser
Hi All
There will be some system maintenance at the MOQ.ORG hosting company tonight for a
few hours. The site and mailserver will probably be down for a short period.
Horse
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Hi Rich, Jon et. al.
Definitely interested in this one - let me have a think over and a read of what's
suggested and
I'll get back.
Horse
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To unsubscribe from
to
get
something good together. I'll also offer whatever services I can to help get it up and
going.
BTW - in answer to your question:
"Maybe it's still too early for this kind of thing. What'd'you think?"
I think it's a great idea and probably about the right time to give it a
c
and logical place (with obviously no place for mysticism or other such hippy shit)
would be
good enough to give us poor gormless gumby Pirsigians the benefit of your incredible
wisdom.
Humbly yours
Horse
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monly
subscribed-to protocols, and without any central control; .this being a
new medium, there are many misunderstandings."
HORSE:
There is no list moderator for moq_discuss but there IS a list-master - ME, and if
necessary it
would be down to me to do any imposing. However contrary to
d of analysis that cannot cope with this in
that the F/~F exists as a set of potentials within the set of possible
expressions within a mode of interpretation.
HORSE INTERJECTS:
That something is both A AND ~A simultaneously is one of the fundamental principles of
Fuzzy Logic/Thinking. The main problem w
iew, but that's life :-)
Horse
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cessarily_ presented in a
disreputable, malicious, grotesque, dishonest, cleverly twisted, insubstantial, highly
simplistic (or
other adjectival phrase) manner. This is also shown in the examples that Warburton
provides and
in his comments.
HORSE
I'm using the term strawman here as being no
or not we can at least be civilised and start talking
rather than
fighting.
Horse
On 25 Dec 2000, at 2:33, Struan Hellier wrote:
The last time anyone said that to me (apart from Rich "oh shit now I've read
some philosophy I realise that it doesn't work after all" Pretti) was in
prim
and abuse
where we
discuss Pirsigs work - disagreement yes, but this is not the same thing. Two or more
people
can disagree on a position without fighting if they are reasonable and fair-minded.
Horse
On 31 Dec 2000, at 12:16, David Prince wrote:
In principle, I disagree with this stance
Hi Puzz
On 31 Dec 2000, at 23:18, PzEph wrote:
Puzzled Pachyderm:
I feel suitable chastened by your comments, as I am not wholly confident
that I have met proper standards.
Horse:
For the most part I've had no problem with your comments and your posts in general
have
been enjoyable
Hi Glenn
Maybe I missed it in your post but could you state exactly what it is YOU mean by the
Scientific Method. That might seem odd but I'm sure there are a number of people who
will
otherwise be confused.
Thanks
Horse
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suggest, should not be tolerated.", but presumably that
only
applies to others. The most that I can do for now is to ask others to treat this sort
of behaviour
with the contempt that it deserves and to try not to respond in kind.
Horse
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Nice try Struan but I doubt anyone's buying it.
And in case you hadn't noticed I'd said everything I wanted to say in my last post but
you carry
on if it makes you feel better.
Horse
On 11 Jan 2001, at 14:40, Struan Hellier wrote:
Greetings,
It is very amusing to wind you up and watch
.
Let me know if you want to unsubscribe and I'll sort it out for you.
Horse
On 12 Jan 2001, at 8:29, David Prince wrote:
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Hi Dave
As far as I know Chris Lucas isn't on the list - at least not by the name that he uses
at the
CalResCo site, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't subscribed.
Thanks for the link to the site. Very intersting.
Horse
On 17 Jan 2001, at 13:51, 3dwavedave wrote:
Couple
fundamental that it is considered by most to be an axiom.
Horse
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Hiya Puzz and other Pirsigians
On 19 Jan 2001, at 21:17, elephant wrote:
I approached you over the frightening vehemence of the quarrel with Horse.
Do you have the gall to deny writing to me in response:
I'm just having a laugh winding
Horse up, don't take it so seriously. I know its
to fail to point to any
evidence
whatsoever of the effect you claim to have on me, nor will you ever because you're
really not
good enough to provoke me sufficiently. Thanks Ol' chap, this is the most fun I've had
for a
while - toodle pip
Horse
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive
Hi All
It's entirely possible Mark - it wouldn't be the first time Struan has posted as
someone else -
but it's not against the rules and is quite common on the Internet to alias yourself.
If it is true I'm sure we'll find out eventually and if not..
Horse
On 21 Jan 2001, at 7:53, Mark
(and I can't think of a single Quality
swearword -
nope, not one).
Thanking you in advance for your kindly assistance
Madam Jackboot AKA Horse AKA allsortsofnames
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED
number of ways plus it ties him down to a particular position and
would
probably undermine his position on both SOM and the Subject Object Dichotomy. That is
unless he produces a deliberately obscure or obviously warped definition - but that
leaves
him open to challenge etc.
Horse
MOQ.ORG
Hi All
Does anyone know if there is a Spanish version of Lila available. I've been asked by
someone who is running a post-grad course with ZMM and Lila as substantial elements.
Let me know privately or on the list if you have any information.
Horse
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail
Struan
I have asked you before and I will NOT ask you again to refrain from being abusive
when
replying to other members of this forum. If you persist in this behaviour and refuse
to accept
this one simple rule then I will remove you from the list.
Horse
On 26 Jan 2001, at 1:29, Struan
the blame off on me Struan. this issue is entirely of your making.
Have some respect, if not for yourself, then for the principles of the moq.
Oh please - don't make me laugh. Cant piled upon hypocrisy.
Horse
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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without resorting to insult or abuse or
swearing
etc. If you can do so until a reasonable conclusion is reached I will donate 10 to
the charity
of your choice. Ya can't say fairer than that me old mucker but I think my money is
perfectly
safe.
Horse
On 27 Jan 2001, at 1:28, Struan wrote
Greetings to All
On 27 Jan 2001, at 8:29, Struan wrote:
As you know full well Horse, 'Anon' is Elephant and there are plenty of
examples of his abuse in the archives.
And yet you are still unwilling or unable to provide examples of either myself, El
Tusko, 'Anon'
or anyone else being
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