t there is different design paradigm. Three-level
modelling, rather than two-level modelling?
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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Thanks Erik,
These feel like very sound proposals, in particular the focus on
bottom-up local development.
Pablo, Shinji - would Erik's suggestions be the kind of support that
you would hope to have?
Ian
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Hi Diego,
I have responded to your comments on the Clinical list under
openEHR Transition: Community Knowledge repository
as I think this a topic which properly belongs there and absolutely
merits further discussion.
Regards,
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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one or both might
be useful at regional level.
Would it be sufficient for the Foundation to give 'official status' to
regional affiliates e.g. openEHR Japan, or are there other practical
suggestions as to how best to support regional affiliates?
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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ion to development
and now into real implementation, I am increasingly confident that
openEHR has a solid and exciting future. I am looking forward to the
challenge of helping get us into the right shape to support this
future.
Regards,
Ian
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Hi Pablo,
I agree with your and Diego's suggested change. That was the intended
meaning of the original statement but yours expresses this more
clearly.
I was just interested in Diego's actual experience with the CKM
web-services as the basis for a generic API.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
uld be clarified. We should define a
>> basic API to access repositories, to avoid doing ad-hoc
>> implementations for each one of the possible repositories
>
>
>
> ___
> openEHR-technical mailing list
> openEHR-technical at o
.
Heather took an descision on which were 'good enough' to go into CKM
without too much extra work but there are others which can certainly
be used.
Ian
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s time. We do not want to put these archetypes , developed for a
particular project, up on to CKM until we have at least established
that they are appropriate for sharing to a wider audience.
We will get there honest.
Ian
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creating interoperable archetypes which make
use of clinical data collected as part of front-line activity and
requirements.
Ian
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Clinical Modelling
Haha Hugh - love it. The new generation of smart phones seem to have
mind-reading capacity.
Ian
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out how we might approach
this with openEHR. The main thing to note with this approach is that
it takes longer to do the 'first module' but each subsequent module is
easier, and faster to model.
Ian
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ple in the past, and I
am sure there is real value in collaboration. I think the archetype
methodology and review process would be of great value, even if
openEHR was not used formally at the back-end of openMRS systems.
Ian
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are not and can
have duplicates.
So is this a valid ordinal ? ordinal constraint?
Ian
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openEHR
CR for the Archetype Editor, a CR to the Ref Model, or a
clever alternative modelling suggestion to me?
Regards,
Ian
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mit _audit and versioned_object attributes for all
Encounter compositions.
Ian
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openEHR Clinical
/infocenter/index.jsp?topic=/org.openhealthtools.mdht.cda.doc.user/c_Introduction.html
Ian
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openEHR
I will get killed by
both communities for that statement!!).
I am interested in your question re granularity - can you explain
further what you were concerned about?
Cheers,
Ian
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to address
these issues but it does present a significant barrier for those
outside the NHS.
Regards,
Ian
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Clinical
developed
locally and submitted for inclusion to a shared repository as expertise
develops.
Ian
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me directly if
you want to discuss privately. I am based in the UK and reasonably familiar
with the various UK standards development efforts (for better or worse!!).
Ian
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ay to
go, particularly in getting to grips with the post-coordinated terminologies
but I think both our communities are broadly on the right track and it is
great to know that there is a useful exchange of ideas.
Regards,
Ian
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the needs of varying specialities and domains.
Interesting discussion,
Ian
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ge request mechanism.
e.g. As alternatives
1. Use the pseudo-unit in the unit attribute, as a qualified real
2. Use a qualified real and keep the name of the unit in the element name
'LV function factor (m2/kg3/m)' or whatever.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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force us to move
from v0->v1, which is what I think we need to avoid for these first draft
archetypes. Once an archetype is published, the rules suggested (mostly)
work just fine
Ian
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envisage a better solution.
Would calling first draft archetypes .v0 help to highlight their fragility?
Ian
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C
hics archetypes
and these are comparatively simple).
Any projects, including our own, that are using 'draft' archetypes must
accept that these are subject to change and have to be regarded as local
copies.
Ian
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archetypes to distinguish between
archetypes that are in early draft (like alpha code and therefore volatiile)
and those that are effectively Release candidates - would this be helpful.
Regards,
Ian
PS Enjoyed your Japanese presentation.
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+44 (0
Hi Diego,
Very interesting. Is any of the documentation available without paying a
small fortune?
Ian
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ype
in the description section of an archetype as follows:"
id_history =
Thoughts would be welcome as I think we need to start making these (or
alternative) specifications formal to enable tooling and application support
to go ahead.
Ian
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Congratulations Pablo,
Would it be possible to get some headline points for this release?
Ian
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openEHR
.
Ian
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Honorary Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL
.
openEHR-EHR-ACTION.procedure-unassisted_oxygen_delivery.v1|Unassisted
oxygen delivery| and name/value = 'Current
oxygen']/description[at0001]|Tree|/items[at0002.1|Intervention|]
Would it even be useful as a documentation convention even if not supported
in current systems?
Ian
Dr Ia
except in
exceedingly rare circumstances.
Ian
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Honorary Senio
Hi Leonardo,
You can use a local terminology-id but do not use 'local' for the
terminology name, which is reserved name meaning that internal atcodes are
being used.
So this would be valid, I think ...
>
>leonardoCT
>
> 5
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
off
fundamentally a DV_CODED_TEXT list, but which in some circumstances
(where the number of states is 2 or less, after template level
constraint), that can be expressed as a boolean for GUI purposes.
I am re-reading Erik's comments to see where that takes us!!
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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most of SNOMED, openEHR, 13606 and HL7 semantics.
Ian
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nt with clinical
statements but make it easier for GUI designers to understand how to
represent the questionairre.
I very rarely now use DV_BOOLEAN when modelling but agree that using
DV_TEXT/CODE_TEXT is a pain to map to a checkbox/radiobutton GUI.
Ian
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specifications change to allow FEEDER_AUDIT
used in this way.
Ian
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openEHR Clinical Knowledge Editor
was deemed unsuitable for this purpose.
Personally I like the idea of using FEEDER_AUDIT and there is growing
recognition that we need to expose more of the RM in the models for
specific archetypes but the current specs seemed to debar the use of
FEEDER_AUDIT for outgoing identifiers.
Ian
Dr Ian
I would vote for RSS
Dr Ian McNicoll
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Honorary Senior Research
some
of the code sensibly. Oxygen may be just as good.
Ian
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Hi Thomas,
I think I have used DV+DURATION in all of these circumstances.. My
impression has been that DV_QUANTITY with time property was
deprecated.
Ian
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Clinical
ed post-coordination work and addressing the
Questionnaire conundrum.
Ian
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cannot be added to a template.
Ian
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just an issue of
GUI.
Ian
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Honorary Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UC
of association between a
parent concept and potential children which is independent of any GUI
representation. These, I believe, should be considered for inclusion
within archetypes/templates.
Ian
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-defined forms, a common feature in many
applications. The other is in the area of requirements gathering and
prototyping, either for EHR aplication development or wider standards
development work.
Dr Ian McNicoll
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the enclosed scope of a single archetype.
Ian
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definition is pretty stable. The issues of extra
directives and extensions are important at this stage as arguably some
should be supported in the operational template, as I discussed above.
Ian
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Thanks Pablo,
I was dealing with some monster requirements documents which were
perhaps atypical.
Ian
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although fairly amusing on
occasion!! Most of the formatting is retained although Word numberings
tend to get lost.
Ian
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openEHR Cl
ow readily other local template-based openEHR projects can
generate an operational template, since this not only gives a pivot
oint for GUI directives etc but makes it possible to switch back-end
persistence very easily.
Ian
Ian McNicoll
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ecords this (i.e. in MST Findings
archetypes [Present?] node).
=/
So, in principle, should we keep the operational template 'pure', and
if so, where is the cut-off and how do we integrate that pure template
layer with a GUI/messaging directive layer(s).
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office
ed or effectively married or religiously married? By whose rules?
I think this is taking ontological purity into an unsustainable and
fruitless level of detail.
Ian
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e from
and support open source projects like yours and Koray's. There are
also some interesting discussion to be had about how to share the
archetype you have developed, or at least feed your ideas into broader
developments.
Would you mind re-posting in a different/new thread?
Ian
Dr Ian McNico
bular representation difficult in all cases.
Ian
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kind of simplification around the use of CLUSTER, with the
ability to define TABLES within a CLUSTER or ITEM_TREE would give us
some simpler modelling constructs and, as you suggest, flatten the
data path.
Ian
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epj::openEHR-EHR-EVALUATION.genetic_diagnosis.v1.12,
org.openehr.ehr::openEHR-EHR-EVALUATION.diagnosis.v1.29,
org.openehr.ehr::openEHR-EHR-EVALUATION.problem.v2.4
Ian
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commercial offerings such as Mindmanager
but would need some work to 'componentise' as I understand things.
Heather Leslie and I make extensive use of Xmind in designing
archetypes and templates.
Ian
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Hi Leo,
The standard advice is always to use DV_PROPORTION. I am not sure of
the background to why proportion i also available as a DV_QUANTITY.
Ian
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ian at
sitting, or if the oxygen
level was not recorded in the ambient oxygen archetype, it would be
safe to assume that the patient was breathing air.
In practice, we have very few examples in the CKM archetypes to date,
where it is safe to make such clinical assumptions.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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context of a common 'base' Patient
Name archetype.
Ian
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of the slot for downstream users.
Ian
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ents[at0006]/data[at0003]/items[at0004]/value/value
>= 140
Note too that, specialised archetypes also support the same mechanism
of filled lots, which allows compound archetypes to be defined i.e
with some pre-filled slots.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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at0026,
at0027,
at0028]
}
}
...
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Clinic
o use it afterwards - i.e.
is the above going to assign an expression to *as_string()* function?
=========
Discuss!!
Ian
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Cl
point is that for these demographic *name*-based-typing
it will be even safer to use an openEHR terminology instead, as that is
always available within an openEHR environment.
=
Part 2 to follow ...
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
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o me needs to be in a separate post as the
combined message is too large for the email server.
I hope a lively debate will ensue :-)
Regards,
Ian
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Hi David,
I agree. I think the default behaviour in AE would be switchable as per user
preference. i.e. save in adl 1.4 or 1.5. The file extensions will be
different in any case - .adls and .adlf.
Ian
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it, so I hope someone else
will pitch in to any further discussion.
Ian
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Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group
Memb
Hi Leo,
No it works the other way round. All of the null flavours are automatically
available unless you specifically constrain them out.
Ian
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h matches the Snomed approach.
Regards,
Ian
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ome sort of comment is mandatory then using the null is the
means to allow an empty comment.
I have copied ot the clinical list, as it would be interesting to get some
other feedback.
Ian
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s defining the detailed clinical
content in a manageable and scalable fashion.
I think the openEHR approach to content definition has definite advantages.
Ian
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Final decision has not been taken but I am expecting to be there.
Ian
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entry field is left blank, this would simply not
be recorded in openEHR data. If the field is mandatory, either the user is
forced to make some sort of entry or perhaps is allowed to select one of the
null values as you suggest.
Regards,
Ian
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publication.
Any contributions would be very much appreciated.
The links are
Address : http://www.openehr.org/knowledge/OKM.html#showArchetype_1013.1.484
Person Name:
http://www.openehr.org/knowledge/OKM.html#showArchetype_1013.1.477
Regards,
Ian
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are likely to be the most common sort of redefinition, in
Templates, constrained down to 0..0. In comparison name and datatype
redefinitions will be comparatively rare.
So, I would prefer to keep the original rule for name and datatype
redefinitions but relax it for occurences.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
Hi Leo,
See below for my best understandings!!
Ian
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also feel this is primarily a technical activity but will probably
need somre clinical input as a sanity check.
We also need to think about these issues in relation to possible alignment
with IHTSDO e.g should we start to think about using SNOMED-like primary
technical representations.
Regards,
Ian
'metadata', as
far as I can tell , other than Refset name, this is almost wholly technical
in nature and clinical metadata elements e.g use, misuse, purpose, authoring
details are not defined - is this correct?
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209
Hi Sheng,
A few of my comments below...
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group
Member BCS Primary Health Care
I would agree - this is clinically the safest and correct action.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group
Member
in 'normal' CKM archetpye e.g. Heart
rate-Pulse, Blood pressure and Oximetry. There is also now a
CLUSTER.waveform archetype to hande this form pf device output.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceanin
nical list as I think there will be some interest there as well.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group
Member B
I would definitely recommend Zotero - this is what I use to store and format
the references used in CKM. Mendeley looks very interesting, and perhaps
better suited for joint reference libraries, but they do recognise that it
is not as fully-featured as Zotero.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax
Hi Otavio,
Thanks for the input. There are a few of us looking at the wound archetypes
via Google Wave at
https://wave.google.com/wave/#restored:wave:googlewave.com!w%252BsliTddCQD
Your contribution would be very welcome.
If you need a Google Wave invitation, just let me know.
Ian
Dr Ian
tructures.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group
Member BCS Primary Health Care SG Group www.phcsg.org / BCS
to run out.
Thanks to all,
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group
Member BCS Primary Health Care SG Group www.phcsg
enough offers of invitations for now . If demand seems to be
outstripping supply, I will ask for more offers.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics
I can hand over
to you when I run out - nice sort of chain invitation process ;-)
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype
Central Europe (and beer) sounds a good match to me :-)
Certainly Amsterdam would be good from the perspective of easy transport.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical
e collaboration at a very early stage so that overlapping and
contradictory models/requirements can be rationalised before different
groups have invested too much time and energy.
Share early, share often.
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcni
m potential 'consumers' of the archetypes
we cannot be certain that they are 'fit to publish'.
Thanks for your interest and potential input. We appreciate that everyone's
time is at a premium but any feedback you can give will be most welcome.
Regards,
Ian
Dr Ian McNi
Hi Graham,
Thanks for the detailed reviews of both the Address and Name archetypes.
I can see your reviews and review cycles listed for both archetypes if I go
to the Archetype concerned and then to Reviews - are you navigating
differently.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
Cluster archetypes between the 2 models.
Does that help?
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
BCS Primary Health Care Specialist Group
ersion
repository.
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
BCS Primary Health Care Specialist Group www.phcsg.org
2009/10/26 pablo pazos
> H
properly belongs in
the guideline/pathway space, rather than as ref ranges?
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian at mcmi.co.uk
Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com
BCS Primary Health Care
type does
not represent actual patient data but an abstract of ALL patients who might
fall within the guideline.
See http://www.hst.aau.dk/~ska/MIE2009/papers/MIE2009p0653.pdf
Hope this helps,
Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
skype ianmcnicoll
ian
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