Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 03:40:20PM +0200, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: classification analog/digital is very arbitrary, as all use both, like pan sonic uses a lot of electronics, i don't know why they will still be classified in computer music, maybe the way they use it makes it sound like computer music-? Yeah, totally agree. John Denver's «Country Roads» is computer music when it's been coded into 6809 machine code to be played on a Tandy 6-bit DAC. In the summer of 1983, my father left our rural isles by plane several times to get some training in the city of Québec, and each time he came back he had some 600-baud tapes with more programmes. Back then, we used to load this programme over and over to hear the marvellous sound coming out of it... Frankly, I don't care how much academicians use confusing terms for their own music at the expense of the rest of the population. I mean, «computer» and «music» are terms for everybody and if you just put those two words together it should make a term for everybody doing music with a computer, or some other sensible subset of it that doesn't have to do with whether the composers got tenure. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors]
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: I assume your talking about the HELP_PATCH_AUTHOR field, and not AUTHOR. (But maybe there are better names for these.) Yes, I confused the two with my example, but let's say that the authorship of one object-class is Johannes wrote the original version, Martin added a TCP transport module or Paquette wrote the whole abstraction, but we'd like to thank the XYZ institute for encumbering it with a patent. There are numerous things that one may want to put in an AUTHOR field in the real world. It's not like a university lab, where you just have to write the name of your advisor in that field and not think twice (except if you are unlucky enough to have several advisors at once). I don't understand your last point, as far as parsing in Pd is concerned. If you have the tag frequency_modulation, how is it that the user can search for fm and get appropriate results? They can't. Why should they? What's a tag? Tell me what's a tag and what's the point of having tags. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] ben voyons donc
On Sun, 6 Sep 2009, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: apportez vos portables mon telephone? mais non, ordinateur portable, bien entendu. il n'est pas du tout question de téléphones cellulaires. pero viva el marques de sade, i keep talking, you'll never get me Jésus t'aime. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [pix_video] with v4l
On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Miha Tomi wrote: On Linux using Gem 0.92 from SVN I am using [pix_video] with Logitech QuickCam 4000 and v4l driver but the red and blue colours are swapped. Is there a way to instruct [pix_video] to use different colorspace (BGR instead of RGB)? If not what is the cheapest way to convert from one colorspace to the other. a simple _hack_ is to use YUV-colorspace with [pix_video] and then (if you really need it) [pix_rgba] to convert to RGBA. Do you mean that the BGR thing is a bug in Gem or what? Because if it isn't, then YUV might as well be YVU, in which case you'd still use [pix_colormatrix], but possibly with different constants... what is [pix_colormatrix] supposed to do on a YUV image ? are its coefficients still RGB-wise in that case? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] higher math
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: But I didn't address that [exp~] is missing a right inlet (or that the help file is wrong). So I just added that as a comment for this bug. I don't understand why anyone might expect [exp] and [exp~] to have anything else than 1 inlet, and [pow] and [pow~] to have anything else than 2 inlets, in which the base comes before the exponent. It's a very well entrenched standard in many languages, in which the only variations I ever see, is that pow is sometimes called ** and sometimes ^; and sometimes you have to get those functions from a namespace. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] future of the Text Editor (fwd)
resending because i accidentally had used a different From:. -- Forwarded message -- Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 17:49:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mathieu Bouchard mbouch...@videographe.qc.ca To: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: PD list pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] future of the Text Editor On Wed, 9 Sep 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Now that cut/copy/paste works in all object boxes, comments, etc. on all platforms, is there any reason to keep the Text Editor? Shift+arrows : select Ctrl+arrows : skip words Shift+Ctrl+arrows : both Home, End Shift+Home, Shift+End. Triple-click (should select a whole line). I probably forgot some other things. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] future of the Text Editor (fwd)
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I just added a triple-click binding. The others seem possible but not easy. Matju, did you embed a full 'text' widget into the canvas using a window? Yeah, well, I got Chun to do it. I thought I had told you a few times. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] higher math
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Hans Roels wrote: I noticed some strange behaviour of some higher math objects in Pd vanilla (0.42-4): 'log~' has a right inlet log(a,b) = log(a)/log(b) it's dumb, because when a two-input log is computed, it takes the time of two one-input logs plus the time of a division... which is normal and useful, but the problem is that you can't make it compute any faster. e.g. you could precompute log(b), or you could even precompute 1/log(b) because nowadays it's faster to multiply than to divide, but those accelerations would need the existence of a one-input log. You don't find this in Pd's internals. You find this as [expr~ log($v1)]. file a 'optional creation argument initializes right inlet (the base of the logarithm)' but this doesn't work. If I create a 'log~ 10' object it still computes the logarithm base e I tried it with 0.42-5 and it worked. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] how to cite the Pure Data in a research paper
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, tania habib wrote: My question is regarding the citation of the Pure Data in a conference paper as I am mentioning that we are using a patch made in PD to record a 24-channel microphone array. Prompt reply will be really appreciated. So, where is the question? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Jerome Covington wrote: I'm interested to know who's been working with feedback, and if anyone has any patches they've developed, or that others have developed that they think is exemplary. Feedback is everywhere and is everything. The universe is made of feedback loops. Those feedback loops are made of smaller feedback loops and are constituents of bigger feedback loops. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] problem with pd-extended 0.41.4
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Yup, we are aware. Originally that stuff was handled by the hexloader for special characters, which had serious bugs. I probably missed something important. What happened to the hexloader? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] problem with pd-extended 0.41.4
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: Second that. I would love to hear more about the hexloader. Is this a part of the regular distribution or only pd-extended? Also, why is zexy not built as a lib rather than being a collection of files? Does it have lower memory footprint this way? it's higher in several ways. Each additional dlopen() takes one filehandle and each filehandle probably takes a lot more RAM than the machine code of the average zexy class. Given dlopen() uses mmap() which loads the *.pd_linux file content on-demand (in 4k blocks), one big *.pd_linux file is more memory-efficient than one-class-per-file, even when using a low number of different classes. On top of that, if your external takes 1k, it's padded to 4k, and if it takes 4.001k, it's padded to 8k, etc. however, if you loaded all of pd-extended as big libs, it would have a greater virtual-memory-size than one-class-per-file, but that doesn't have any advantage in practice. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, Derek Holzer wrote: as you probably discovered, you need to use a send~/receive~ pair or other type of one-block delay to make any kind of feedback in Pd You don't need it to be one block...? For one, feedback in the digital realm is never instantaneous, Instantaneousness is a myth. It does not exist in nature. If you ever wondered why computer clock speeds stopped increasing recently... well, that's the reason. but in the audio world, in which everything is in kHz, you wouldn't notice that often, because the scale of hearing is much larger than the scale of signal propagation. because no code can compute it's output using that exact same output as its input (discrete/sampled time). Use Mathematica. You will find out that it can figure out simultaneity equations using algebraïc manipulation, which is a digital-only concept. The only way you can compute actual instantaneous equations in analogue gear is if you use your analogue gear to build enough digital gear to be able to run Mathematica. But for audio, a straight mapping of signal theory might appear instantaneous in almost all cases... due to scale. In the analog realm, as in real life, things can and do simultaneously affect each other (continuous time). This analog realm, just like this real life, are completely foreign to the physics of the last 100 years. This makes sense since a filter is in fact a small feedback system of it's own which cancels out or reinforces various phases of a wave! Not all filters are feedback systems... for example, [rpole~] uses feedback, but [rzero~] doesn't. So this was the second turn-off from digital feedback systems--that I couldn't always rely on them to work! Ow, I don't know how you can rely on your analogue gear to work... I suppose you keep room temperature very close to constant, and you put the whole thing in a huge faraday cage, etc. One big reason for using digital gear is that it's so much more predictable. Most filters or delays in Pd, for example, throw a nan error at that point and the signal chain breaks down. If it does a NaN in the digital realm, it does a NaN also in signal theory, which means it does a NaN in Maxwell theory, which means Maxwell theory can't explain it, yet something happens. Therefore Maxwell theory is at least a bit off from the real world, and so this is another example of why you shouldn't confuse signal theory and real world. I figured this out in grade 13 when they showed us Maxwell equations and there were derivatives of things like resistance, but while you plug a wire, the resistance changes suddenly, and this causes a NaN in the derivative, and Maxwell theory offers no way to figure out what will happen at that time. Obviously, the teacher and the book both conveniently worked around those hurdles by ignoring them... provided no-one asks how to compute the voltage of the spark that comes out by plugging a certain wire in a certain circuit. Frank Barknecht posted a waveshaper to do soft clipping somewhere in the archives once, that might be an interesting patch to look at, since what it does is gradually taper off values as they approach the max/min values, instead of hard clipping them as the [clip~] object would. I mention [expr~ tanh($v1)] rather often (?), and I'm not the first one to use it. I suspect that it's rather close to how capacitors saturate, but still somewhat off... (I think I recall capacitors saturate more like negative exponentials...) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] new GUI screenshots
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: One of slightly annoying things about the console is that has a large, awkward default size that makes it likely to get covered up when there are lots of subpatches open. You can avoid having lots of subpatches open, by making judicious use of the GOP. You can also accept windows covering each other, make them all full-screen, and use Alt+tab to switch between them. You can split the screen in your mind such that you don't ever put a subpatch on the left side of the screen where you put your console. (I often do that) Would it be possible to get the console to pop-up when a message gets printed? By pop-up, I mean brought in front of all the other open patches, but behind the patch that has the focus. Using pop-ups instead of the console means you can't select the text of the message, you can't keep it for later, and you can't decide how long it stays on screen. Well, it doesn't mean that, but if someone replaced the console by popups, I'd expect them to make those three mistakes, and deny that they are mistakes. But I suppose that there are good possible popup-based solutions that could be tried, hybridised in various ways with the popups. I had made a first sketch like this: http://artengine.ca/desiredata/gallery/find_last_error.png in which the red phylactere appears when you do find last error. I had other ideas but I didn't implement them. It doesn't replace the console and it works only for posts that are errors (thus not for warnings and other info). _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] new GUI screenshots
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: If you dislike vanilla appearance of Pd on Linux as much as I do, please try the pd.tk file I sent out sometime last week on this list and report any bugs. I have no idea how much you dislike it, but I won't work on pd.tk anymore. If you read early 2004 pd-list archives, you'll find some of those hacks. Hans has pointed a few that affect other platforms (this one was designed to provide minimal changes while making GUI more 21st century I got a message from the future... they said OSX and Vista don't look 21st century enough... they claimed to be living in the year 2015. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] [PD-announce] Thirty-first meeting of the Pd club of Montréal, QC (schedule)
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: la trente-et-unième rencontre du club PureData de la ville de Montréal aura lieu le mercredi 16 septembre 2009 de 18h30 à 22h30, dans les locaux de Vidéographe-Production, situé au 4550 Garnier (entre Mont-Royal et Gilford). apportez vos portables. Au programme: Alexandre Quessy: Purity Création dynamique de patches en python Purity est une librairie Python pour la création dynamique de patches PureData. L'objectif est de pouvoir utiliser la puissance de PureData pour faire de la programmation sonore, mais sans devoir utiliser son interface graphique. La syntaxe claire et intuitive de Python peut alors être mise à profit afin de créer des patches à l'algorithmie avancée. Tout le traitement des chaînes de caractères, les interfaces graphiques de contrôle et le rendu visuel peuvent être relégués au langage Python. L'objectif à plus long terme de l'auteur est de créer des interfaces programmatiques pour le son en Python qui pourront être implémentées avec plusieurs engins, comme PureData, tels que Csound, Supercollider, Chuck et STK. Purity est en phase de prototypage alpha. Les commentaires sont les bienvenus. http://code.google.com/p/toonloop/wiki/Purity Thomas O. Fredericks: pdmtl-abstractions 2 Est-ce qu'il y a une suite après pdmtl-abstractions? Appel de candidatures. Présentation d'un nouveau browser d'externes qui fonctionne avec des tags. Présentation de nouveaux externes et surtout du nouveau système de state saving ultra puissant. Patrick S. Coulombe: Guitare à crayon L'idée derrière la Guitare à crayon est de pouvoir peindre et jouer de la musique avec le même instrument. C'est une guitare usb sur mesure, faite à l'aide de logiciels libres: notamment, PureData pour le son, ainsi que gimp, blender et flash pour le visuel. Notez qu'il reste du temps pour des présentations de dernière minute (ou autres propositions). _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-announce mailing list pd-annou...@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] new GUI screenshots
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: If you dislike vanilla appearance of Pd on Linux as much as I do, please try the pd.tk file I sent out sometime last week on this list and report any bugs. I have no idea how much you dislike it, but I won't work on pd.tk anymore. If you read early 2004 pd-list archives, you'll find some of those hacks. Sorry, bad edition of my email. I deleted a sentence while I was shuffling some others around. I meant that I made some pd.tk hacks back in early 2004 and that you can find about them in the pd-list archives. Now that I think of it, several of them involved a bit of C code as well. For example, I had added a console to the main window... _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] new GUI screenshots
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, András Murányi wrote: 2009/9/15 Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Btw I can see it's a snapshot of 2009/09/06. Do I understand right that 1) dd is being actively developed these days 2) some code from it gets its way to pd? DD is GPL and Pd is BSD so code can only flow Pd-DD. Wow. Why? Oh, don't worry: it's not true. However, using different licenses in the same program means all licenses have to be respected at once, and if you do that, then effectively the whole program has to be handled as if it were all GPL'ed, except for the fact that you can take any SIBSD part of it and handle it under SIBSD license. This is because GPL basically includes SIBSD's clauses, not the other way around. Hans has not mentioned the other possibilities: making Pd partially GPL'ed, or asking me (and Chun) for relicensing some parts to SIBSD, or invoking fair use (for small snippets), etc. Note: SIBSD = the 1999 version of the BSD license. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 04:00:09PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Instantaneousness is a myth. It does not exist in nature. I thought that at the moment it looks quite a lot like the collapse of a wave function of an electron being measured is instantaneous. Damn, my sentence was too short. Yes, I agree that those events are as instantaneous as instantaneousness can be... but cause-effect relationships always take nonzero time... they can't be strung continuously in time. Eventually, between a chosen original cause and final effect, picking intermediate causes and effects will eventually come to an end, as you will find each event leading directly to another, each after a certain nonzero delay. Thus a feedback loop can only have a nonzero feedback time. (but then, a number of things that we'd casually count as events don't count in this concept of physics, and thus we are free to imagine them as continuous as we like, or as non-existent as we like; e.g. a change in position doesn't count, a change in speed does). I think that an event (collapse) could also appear to have a duration, but only as an artifact of limited measurability (time-energy uncertainty), and I think that physicists prefer seeing events as instantaneous with unknown timing, but to make sure I'd have to ask them. ... But there are surely tricky phenomena that can be thought of as both a feedback loop and not a feedback loop, in which case the appearance of instantaneous feedback would be a mirage due to the way of writing the math formulas... _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, josepadovani wrote: On the next PdCon we should have sessions for physics related papers, presentations and performances (without cars!)... ;) It would require that people submit physics-related papers in the first place... but it would have to be physics-with-pd, for the same reason that there is no room for max-based pd-less projects in a pd convention: not only it's a convention _about_ pd, there's also so much stuff happening in the pd world (compared to the time between the conventions), that when you have finished putting hot pd stuff in the schedule, it's because the schedule is already full. And as you put hot stuff in the schedule, the schedule needs to follow thermodynamic principles, which either increases the pressure in the schedule (PdCon07) or the size of the schedule (PdCon09). Unfortunately I think that nobody (including Heisenberg) knows when or where it will happen... :P I hope that at least the Barcelonians can know that it will happen in Barcelona in late 2010 or early 2011. It's a decidable problem, therefore they can decide themselves :) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] convert number to pass it as argument to canvas
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, Ricardo Dueñas Parada wrote: 2009/9/15 Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com: You can do this: [makefilename %d] thank you. Be careful with that, as each different-looking number will eat a bit of RAM that will not come back. So, if you make a few million numbers, it'll eat all of your RAM. Also note that this is using %d, which chops off all fractional parts (rounding towards zero). There is %f, which instead shows most of the fractional part. It can also be configured to show various amounts of digits. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Derek Holzer wrote: As I said already, I'm not interested in predictability. Analog nonlinearity is interesting to me, much more so than digital pseudo-randomness. I wonder what you mean by nonlinearity... it seems that there are wholly different definitions of it. Because I wonder why you compare those two things, and not also compare with digital nonlinearity and/or analog pseudo-randomness. But my main interest is in being able to maintain a live performance in the midst of all this unpredictability. That must take a lot of nerve... I hope that the audience can feel that you're dealing with impredictability. When digital stuff fails, it tends to fail catastrophically--in other words NO SOUND. Game over. I know what you mean. It might be because decisional processes are inherently digital, so, naturally, decisional processes is a thing people want to do with computers (because they can't do it with anything else), and then decisions always have an either-or aspect to them, which excludes gradual failing by necessity. But if you mean hardware failures, then also yes, the large majority of digital crashes fail catastrophically, though the weirdest non-crashing hardware failure I have ever had was with trying to run GridFlow on a K7 computer that had a really bad heatsink. In a wave propagation simulation, large garbage values would sometimes pop out of nowhere and replace a small or zero value. Because the wave propagation is a feedback effect, you'd see the computation error propagate itself as a wave across the screen. It was interesting, but for many other reasons (occasional hard freezes and data corruption) I had to add some extra cooling: http://artengine.ca/matju/pics/fan.jpg (And a few weeks later I defenestrated the whole box.) The errors that I get from analog instabilities are much more interesting than anything I've managed to predictively compute. Ah, that's another difference that is not a basic analog-digital difference. I play a lot with digital instabilities and I also play with digital stabilities that I haven't tried to predict. Top-down processes use reason to predict and produce, whereas bottom-up processes start provoking a good source of interesting stuff and then sort through whatever come out of it. Naturally, finding and provoking a good source of interestingness are activities that also can benefit from reason and intuitions and a taste of adventure, all at once. In a top-down perspective, an error is something that you didn't want upfront, whether in a bottom-up perspective, an error is something that you don't want after it's done. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Derek Holzer wrote: I can't really say from a supra-atomic standpoint I could agree with you, but I'd settle for the speed of light, Oh yes, the speed of light (in vacuum) is quite exactly the maximum propagation speed. Which is quite a bit faster than your average blocksize or even a single discrete sample--assuming that a complex digital system like Pd could react effectively at single-sample speed. Ok. Yeah, a continuous signal theory will be usually much more accurate in imitating nature than any discrete sampling. What I'm saying is that it still fails at it, both because NaN doesn't tend to occur in nature, and because the actual signal has a grain texture that is both unlike ordinary smooth continuity and any ordinary discrete sampling. And most likely, if you play with really fine-grained feedback, you will more often encounter situations where an ordinary continuous model will fail to imitate reality, than if you're doing non-feedback things. Really though, must everything really be so complicated Mathieu? I'd like to ask you! From my point of view, I saw instantaneousness as a complication in the conversation, which I could have dealt with by ignoring it, but instead I chose to talk about it. The latter is more proactive in making the complication go away... but at the same time, it makes the complication stick around while we're talking about it. Not everything can be so easily described with mathematics. Sure, but where they do apply well, it's tempting to make use of them. Even when just fooling around, you can fool around better when you have a better intuition, and one of the ways of bettering intuition is to play around with reason (and another one is just hands-on experience). I also like to sip single malt whiskey during the last evening hours of a summer headed towards autumn... If you were on my front porch we could enjoy that or a bottle of Trois-Pistoles while watching big maples slowly turn yellow and red, but right now we're talking on the net about music-making and hopefully trying to do more of a dialogue than «I like noise» «me too». It doesn't *have* to include explicit references to math, but it's hard to do without any, and as you didn't prevent yourself from saying «digital» «analogue» «discrete» «continuous», I supposed we were largely talking about math (and/or physics, which in many respects is indistinguishible from math anyway). I merely wanted to share my (unsatisfactory) experiences with feedback scenarios in Pd. Your Mileage May Vary. Well, I merely wanted to share my comments about your account of your experiences with feedback... and possibly elucidate some of your comments, if you will. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Thirty-first meeting of the Pd club of Montréal, QC (ADDENDUM)
Finalement nous allons rajouter deux présentations supplémentaires: Mike Wozniewski: [serialgps] [serialGPS] is an external to log GPS data from serial (or serial-over-bluetooth) devices. Any NMEA-compatible receiver should work. We have used this on the Gumstix, with PDa (Pure Data Anywhere), to have realtime GPS tracking available in Pd on a mobile device. The external can also log data in .gpx format, which can later be imported into almost any GIS/maping software (eg, OpenStreetMap, Google Earth, GRASS, ArcGIS, etc). There is also a sister external called [GPSplay], which can read .gpx files and replay logged data. Mathieu Bouchard: waveshaping non-monotone à la guitare Voici comment obtenir une basse bien grasse de manière simple, applicable à n'importe quel instrument. Dans ce cas-ci j'ai choisi la guitare électrique comme exemple. Je fais une normalisation de l'effet par rapport au volume RMS afin que l'effet soit plus uniforme dans le temps (ce qui s'avère particulièrement utile). Je fais varier automatiquement l'intensité de l'effet selon des sinus lents (LFO) et optionnellement je rajoute un délai rétroactif (feedback), lui aussi contrôlable par sinus lents, en tant qu'exemple d'effet qui se combine bien avec le waveshaping en question. (Si le temps le permet, nous pourrions essayer les polynômes de Chebyshev, en tant que cas particulier intéressant de waveshaping non-monotone) On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: la trente-et-unième rencontre du club PureData de la ville de Montréal aura lieu le mercredi 16 septembre 2009 de 18h30 à 22h30, dans les locaux de Vidéographe-Production, situé au 4550 Garnier (entre Mont-Royal et Gilford). apportez vos portables. Au programme: Alexandre Quessy: Purity Création dynamique de patches en python Purity est une librairie Python pour la création dynamique de patches PureData. L'objectif est de pouvoir utiliser la puissance de PureData pour faire de la programmation sonore, mais sans devoir utiliser son interface graphique. La syntaxe claire et intuitive de Python peut alors être mise à profit afin de créer des patches à l'algorithmie avancée. Tout le traitement des chaînes de caractères, les interfaces graphiques de contrôle et le rendu visuel peuvent être relégués au langage Python. L'objectif à plus long terme de l'auteur est de créer des interfaces programmatiques pour le son en Python qui pourront être implémentées avec plusieurs engins, comme PureData, tels que Csound, Supercollider, Chuck et STK. Purity est en phase de prototypage alpha. Les commentaires sont les bienvenus. http://code.google.com/p/toonloop/wiki/Purity Thomas O. Fredericks: pdmtl-abstractions 2 Est-ce qu'il y a une suite après pdmtl-abstractions? Appel de candidatures. Présentation d'un nouveau browser d'externes qui fonctionne avec des tags. Présentation de nouveaux externes et surtout du nouveau système de state saving ultra puissant. Patrick S. Coulombe: Guitare à crayon L'idée derrière la Guitare à crayon est de pouvoir peindre et jouer de la musique avec le même instrument. C'est une guitare usb sur mesure, faite à l'aide de logiciels libres: notamment, PureData pour le son, ainsi que gimp, blender et flash pour le visuel. Notez qu'il reste du temps pour des présentations de dernière minute (ou autres propositions). _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801 _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-announce mailing list pd-annou...@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Thirty-first meeting of the Pd club of Montréal, QC (ADDENDUM)
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: lui aussi contrôlable par sinus lents, en tant qu'exemple d'effet qui se combine bien avec le waveshaping la mise en forme d'ondes please Ouais, ou «la formation d'onde» selon le GDT (bizarrement), mais dans un cas comme dans l'autre, la traduction française est équivoque et vague... mais faut pas s'étonner qu'en traduisant mot-à-mot une expression anglaise pas terrible, on obtienne un autre truc pas terrible. Personnellement, j'aimerais mieux utiliser aucun de ces trois termes, mais des fois c'est mieux de parler dans le vocabulaire du milieu dans lequel on est. pourquoi pas «la mise en plis» ? :-} _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Feedback discussion
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, josepadovani wrote: On the next PdCon we should have sessions for physics related papers, presentations and performances (without cars!)... ;) It would require that people submit physics-related papers in the first place... but it would have to be physics-with-pd, Oh and btw the reason why I said that, even though you intended it as a joke, is that in the YAPC conferences of 2000 and 2001, some important talks (almost keynote) involved quantum superpositions as a new programming concept in Perl, as well as an ascii-art simulation of gas particles filling a room. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Array Enhancements
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: You can get all of the above (except onMouseUp behavior) using data structures. Really, there should just be a way to deputize a ds array as a Pd array usable by [tabread] and the like. So if you have a subpatch with [struct blah float x array some_array] you could put the following in the same subpatch: [deputize some_array] And now [tabwrite~ some_array] will work. I don't get the point of it. there is already a hidden struct called 'float' defined by pd in a hidden patch (which doesn't appear in the window list) upon startup. Afaik this is a sign that [table] is making something that can be used as a DS array. Having it vice-versa shouldn't need something like [deputize]. However, such a new object class would be nice for introducing a stride factor, e.g. if you have a struct of several elements such as float x float y float z and you want [tabwrite~] to use only z and not x nor y; this is unless it would be better to make it an option in every array-using class, or to make it an object-class that does something else: e.g. [virtualarray foo bar y] would make a fake bar array that is actually a subpart of foo such that modifying bar also modifies that subpart of foo (not a copy of it). This is like the VIEW feature of the SQL language. But I don't know the inner workings of Pd either, so I'm not sure how feasible this is. Your suggestion prompted me to have an idea which in turn sounds like the kind of API change that could go hand-in-hand with a replacement to the 64-bit fixes of Pd 0.41, but I'd have to think about it more. It would be a generic feature for setting the spacing between relevant elements in an array, in bytes. But it may involve too many changes at once for me to be comfortable with. I know this is probably flawed for I know not the inner technical workings of Pd, or for its purposes, there are other more suitable methods for gui interaction, but is any of this possible? cheers Well, if you think about the fact that Pd 0.41 fixes the 64-bit problems by adding 100% waste (thus the resulting array wastes 50% of its space), you can guess that it's because it wasn't easy making an efficient fix, therefore it's probably hard to make the [deputize] I suggested; however, it's probably easy to make the [deputize] you suggest (?), but I haven't tried and I don't know what it would involve, i just know that as long as your struct has only one element in it, all versions of Pd so far have their internals fairly ready to accept such a feature. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors]
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Martin Peach wrote: As I see it a tag like fm would be associated with synonyms like frequency modulation, frequency_modulation, Frequency Modulation modulation de frequence, DX7 synthesis that could be added to it at any later date, so a search for any of the synonyms would ultimately return whatever was connected to the tag. Yeah, either considering a tag to have several names (hardlinks), or a tag to have a real name and several aliases (symlinks), or something like that. This is good when there is no central authority that gathers all tags together before they begin to be used, or when even the central authority is not sufficient anymore because people can't figure out synonyms at the right time (too many tags, insufficient search engine, etc). _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors]
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: I've been assuming that one of the aims of tags (i.e., keywords) is that there would be a search window in the browser so you can search for relevant help patches/tutorial patches/ etc. Or maybe an actual patch, since Hans has said that the keywords should be parsable in pd. There are already some categories from which simple, standard keywords may be used, but for some terms like frequency modulation there's the aforementioned problem of the space between the words. Given that, frequency_modulation is certainly one solution, and users can get used to using underscores when searching, but why not also include fm and modulation in case the user happens to type that (which would be completely reasonable)? Typically, with tags, the user has access to the list of all currently existing tags, so that the user can choose from there. You could have a feature to search by regexp and/or thesaurus on the list of tags, but when you look for a tag in patches, the goal is sort of to have one concept per tag and one tag per concept, no synonyms, no homonyms. What's a tag? A keyword. That's pretty terse. What are the expectations about tags? what about synonyms and homonyms? what do the tags mean, that the whole text of the patch doesn't? Because, what's the advantage of searching in tags vs searching in the whole text? I saw your nick in the irc discussion of the PDDP, didn't you actually take part in some of these decisions? What??... what does take part mean to you? I don't understand. I don't recall my opinions being represented in PDDP, but then, I don't recall trying to push them. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Array Enhancements
On Sat, 19 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Do you mean a struct having *arrays* x, y, and z like: [struct foo array x x-element array y y-element array z z-element] ? No, sorry, just [struct foo float x float y float z] used as the template of an array. I thought that we were talking about that... Then [tabwrite~ foo] writes to all arrays in foo, and [tabwrite~ bar] writes to array y of foo if you use [virtualarray foo bar y]. Do I have it right, or am I completely misunderstanding? I mean that with the struct foo above, and an array named foo using struct foo as its template, you could make a virtual array named bar, which would be an actual subpart of the array foo, using a different template, which would have to be some kind of substruct of the original template. I know this is probably flawed for I know not the inner technical workings of Pd, or for its purposes, there are other more suitable methods for gui interaction, but is any of this possible? cheers I don't believe I wrote this. why do you say that? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] implications of pd~ for 'poly' objects
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009, Phil Stone wrote: Thanks for clarifying that, Hans, and for pointing out the issue with threads, IOhannes. One shouldn't be profligate with [pd~]s, strewing them all about and expecting performance gains -- therefore, one [pd~] per voice instance in a [polypoly] patch is probably not a good idea until we have 64-core CPUs as a regular thing! :-). However, with judicious use, [pd~] seems like it will allow Pd to scale to future processor design, and that's a good thing. For large numbers of CPUs, and even for not so large ones, [pd~] is not so useful, as it has to be put explicitly in places where one would rather not have to put it, and where it can be quite complicated to introduce it. If [pd~] were more like [pd] it would be more transparent; it would be easier to switch between the two. However, the most useful load-balancing cutting lines are not necessarily those of subpatches and they're even less those of whole patches (thus you have to artificially create separate patches wherever you want to spread work on several CPUs). I would believe that the most useful solutions would look more like Blechmann's [detach] and [join], but I don't know all of the implications of it. ... There is also a naming problem. It's expected that a ~ sign contrast such as [exp~] vs [exp] means that both classes are as similar as possible except one works on signals and the other doesn't. Despite Pd having some quirks about this, [pd~] introduces a big mental clash, so that now, when one explains the general meaning of ~, on has to make an exception for [pd~]. (If [pd~] were more like [pd], this problem wouldn't be any different.) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: So they say that good piano players play with the whole body (same for guitar or any physical instrument, I guess). Is it because it makes the music any better, or because what musicians are after is not just the music but also the dance that a musician makes with the instrument? Art is suposed to be a free environment, meaning that it should be guided or conditioned only by the artist. According to whom? If you answer yes to the third, the probabilities are that your mind is twisted after years of taking drugs, and maybe it was already twisted before you studied art or started taking drugs. Sorry, I was joking... Drugs usually come relatively late in the picture. They don't tend to make art more twisted, just more defective. They also don't have much to do with being twisted. Of course in these three questions I was only having fun while being retoric, because relativity dismantles concepts as making a difference, quality, being emotionally involved and even academic or popular (history shows lots of examples that would complicate the difference between the last two). Dismantling and complicating are not the same thing. Being conscious of the relativity doesn't make those concepts less important and it doesn't break them. It just breaks down a lot of talk that uses those concepts: that which is vague, makes undue assumptions, etc. At the end, anything could be poetic, as it mostly depends on who we are at that right moment. It ends as a matter of self-perception. Right. And as perception is not transferable, neither is poetic or aesthetic experience. Well, despite our frustrations with it, plain talking goes a long way transferring a lot of perception, experience, and other ideas. Calling perception non-transferable comes from either taking conversation as so much for granted that it doesn't count in the picture, or being very pessimistic about how well it can be effectively transferred. That gives us a lot of possibilities, none better than other, only differents. It's only all the same if you just don't care about the possibilities (or if you are trying to be diplomatic). In practice, people get involved in aesthetics because they are passionate about them, and they judge a lot. There is no absoluteness, no central authority, but there's still a lot of judgements and impressions of what is better and what is worse, and that's a necessity. It is also supposed that someone not educated would be more able to find poetic in anything, because for him anything would be different from anything he knows. People don't enter university as blank slates. That is why we commonly despise the creations of early students, forgetting that in history teachers stole several times the concepts of students that weren´t clever enough to realize the jewel they had in hands. Students are at a disadvantage here. They are not knowledgeable in the research-wise artistic discourse of profs, that is what profs are bathing in constantly, and so they don't know what is valuable to the profs. What is valuable to the profs doesn't make much sense to an outsider. It's probably more whim-oriented than most any other discipline (?). it was an interesting read. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd.lib
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Damien Henry wrote: Where can I find documentation about pd.lib ? Does anyone on the list turn pd into a library ? for creating a DSP engine for instance ? Bah, j'ai fait ça (libpd.so, libpd.dylib ...) sous forme d'un petit changement de makefile, mais je n'ai rien fait de concret avec ça. j'avais juste espéré que ça inspire quelqu'un. Il y a d'autres gens qui en ont fait une bibliothèque aussi, mais à ce que je sache, pas quelque chose de générique comme libpd.so, plutôt quelque chose pour faire de Pd un greffon dans un autre logiciel en particulier ou au mieux une interface générique qui n'est pas m_pd.h (par exemple VST...). Personnellement, j'ai pas regardé. Quant à PD.DLL, c'est un hack dû à une lacune dans le chargement des DLL sur Windows, comparativement à Linux et OSX. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Question about object categorizing
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, PSPunch wrote: Hi all, A quick question regarding, pd/doc/5.reference/intro-help.pd I was wondering why [print~] and [samphold~] are under AUDIO FILTERS. Are they meant to belong there? They are meant to remind everybody that categories don't necessarily make any sense. I'd also ask what's the logic in not putting all the AUDIO FILTERS object classes in the AUDIO MATH section, and/or in not putting all the AUDIO MATH classes in the AUDIO FILTERS section. But I don't expect an answer at all. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Question about object categorizing
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, PSPunch wrote: Hi Mathieu, I'd also ask what's the logic in not putting all the AUDIO FILTERS object classes in the AUDIO MATH section, and/or in not putting all the AUDIO MATH classes in the AUDIO FILTERS section. But I don't expect an answer at all. May I take it that there really is no relevancy (as far as you are aware)? No, I know exactly what the relevancy is, I just don't enjoy it. First, a person tells himself/herself «it would be better if there were categories». Then the person looks for characteristic features of the elements to be categorised, so that categories can be made. Those features have to be easy to think about. Turns out that one of the easiest features to think about in this case, are things like: where you first learned the basic concept of each object class. It's a kind of microcosm of the whole job-title social structure. Let me give an example. [lop~] is not an operation you learn in elementary-school or high-school math, therefore it doesn't fit in MATH. It doubly doesn't fit in math, because it isn't taught in a Math Department. A Math Department is a social structure that concentrates on any math concept that doesn't belong to any other discipline already, because if Electrical Engineers already occupy the [lop~] land, it's not only redundant for Math Departments to claim it, it also would make Mathematicians look like Electrical Engineers. So not only [lop~] is not part of Math Depts, but a bunch of related topics are just on the border, so they get lumped into a course called Applied Math, which is all made of pure theory, it's just a form of discrimination against kinds of Math that are too much in use by other departments. Meanwhile, Electrical Engineers would say that [lop~] is math, except when they get distracted by a category system. But most of all, for music students, [+~] is true math, whereas [lop~] is something magical and not math, because [lop~] is not part of what they learnt in courses labelled as «math» before, so it looks a lot more «audiosome» than +~ does. This is a summary. The actual situation is more complicated. So basically the category system has more to do with social factors than with anything else... and those social factors don't help seeing things as they are. For example, something that unites most of AUDIO MATH object classes, is that the effect only involves one instant at a time, no memory, no feedback. This obviously excludes all four [fft~] and [framp~] from that category system, as those are block-oriented object classes (which could be the name of another category). But then, there are a few expatriates that you have to pick from all over to put them in the instant-oriented category. For example, [cos~] from the OSCILLATORS AND TABLES category; but also, the [tabread...] classes are instant-oriented, but they differ from all others so far, because they use data that doesn't come from the signal. Then we could argue about whether [noise~] belongs in or not (because it depends on how you look at it). I'm not completely against categories... I'm trying very hard to make good categorisations, because it's hard for me to find a categorisation that I can take seriously, and I'm trying to find one. As there is a chance of it being widely circulated, I guess he may have to issue it based on pd-help as is, and refer to Mathieu's comment if anyone asks the same, At this point, I don't expect Pd's category list to change at all, so, depending on what it is that you're doing, it may be better to just go with Pd's categories, if you have any advantage in following Pd's categories. although if it was never brought up here, chances of it being asked again may be slim. Oh, the general topic was brought here in the past. For example, I remember some years ago there was a thread about whether [namecanvas] is OBSOLETE or not. It's not. (As you see, it didn't change Pd's official categorisations). But also, for each post to the pd-list, there may be 10 or 100 people asking themselves the same thing, roughly speaking. You don't know. In any case, downloads of pd-extended aren't on the same scale as the member-list of pd-list, and then, not everybody ever writes at all. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Question about object categorizing
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, João Pais wrote: Those features have to be easy to think about. Turns out that one of the easiest features to think about in this case, are things like: where you first learned the basic concept of each object class. yes, that's a very good example of category-building. if it's simple, everyone is going to remember it. What I mean is that using those categories does not much except reinforcing stereotypes that are just artefacts of how things were learned by certain groups of people, at the expense of not just everybody who didn't learn it like that, but also everybody who doesn't want it to be grouped like that. for what is [lop~] mostly used, for math or as a filter? both... well, if I understand the question. I definitely can't pick one OR the other. but then I cannot tell the difference between something used as math and something used as a filter. following your radical assumption, there would be only 3 categories, math (because 50% of the externals involve some math), dataflow (because the other 50% of externals route/handle messages), I thought we were only talking about internal classes, not external (but a good categorisation would expand naturally to externals) no, if there were a dataflow category, it'd cover about 100% of the classes, and then we'd need subcategories, and math could be a subcategory, and it'd cover perhaps 90% of the classes, and then we'd need a lot of subcategories because it's meaningless to have categories that contain nearly 100% of the items; so instead we'd start from scratch with other ideas. i exposed some of those other ideas in the mail you replied to, but you skipped over it then told me I'd want only a 3-category system that I don't want either. do you think it would be easier for the general user (whatever that is) You're not a general user and neither I am. In a community as disparate as pd, there may not be any such thing. But no matter what, there are always people willing to claim themselves as more normal than others. look at max/msp. how do I do that? did those categories (which are the same as here, but more detailed) helped or prevented people from using it? is that the only thing that matters? if we put a quizz on the list asking if [lop~] is a math of filter object, what do you think most people will choose? most people will choose to skip the question. you won't want to use [lop~] if someone thinks that it's more used as a filter as a math object? What's this kind of strawman...? Stalin wore clothes, so, of course, decent people shouldn't. ;) Really, I meant something more like: I could be removing category names from my copy of 00.INTRO.txt... but I don't think I'd even bother with it. In any case, category systems don't tend to affect my opinion of whatever is put in the category. I think a major overhaul of Pd's categories list (pd-van + pd-ext) is necessary. right. but that will only happen if people really want to discuss it and get organized. otherwise it will be only more characters traded around on e-mails. right. ... BTW: if you look up the definition of Filter in Signal Theory, you find out that Filter is a word used to refer to certain kind of Math functions, that may remove or leave alone any given frequency, but will never boost any frequency. This definition rules out [rpole~] from that category, because the output of [rpole~] can be a bunch of dB above the strength of the input signal. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Question about object categorizing
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, PSPunch wrote: Perhaps I should have made clear that I was not sure how [print~] and [samphold~] would even be considered to go under filters. No, no, you were clear enough, I just meant that those aren't the only things that don't fit where they've been put, and that the problem is much bigger than that. (e.g. afaik, in Signal Theory, [rpole~] is not a filter, though it still is peripherally related to filters; otoh there might be other Signal Theorists using different definitions or namings). Is [samphold~] also often used in building filters? I don't know... but it isn't filtering because what you can get out of it can have a richer spectrum than the original (left-inlet input), and it isn't linear either, or quad, or whatever... it doesn't fit the filter theory much... and I don't see how using it anywhere inside an abstraction can not prevent the abstraction to be a linear filter or quad filter...! According to my num.analysis book, [samphold~] would be called a piecewise-constant interpolator, with the warning that constant interpolator is somewhat a contradiction of terms; and that you get to choose the pieces (using right-inlet). Whereas [adc~], for example, is also a piecewise-constant interpolator (in hardware or emulated), but all the pieces are identical in width (duration), that is, 1 sample. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Patching circle NYC
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: This city is large enough for multiple Pd meetings after all. Austria has multiple Pd groups, and there are less people in that whole country than in NYC. :) You are supposed to know that Pd users are not evenly spread out. The change of density is not even continuous: if I just cross a bridge to Laval or Longueuil, poof! no Pd users at all there. Go figure. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd_opencv 0.2-rc4
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: after a week of intensive workshop in baltan laboratories ( http://www.baltanlaboratories.org/ ), No idea what's the cause of this, but if you have only 256 megs of RAM and FireFox 3, just don't go on that website. I thought that just being patient would be enough, but no. (FireFox may still not be nearly as frugal as it could, it's still a very common browser) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] how to cite the Pure Data in a research paper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote: Names are not something you can argue about or that you can improve. Pd's author called it Pure Data and Pd, so in a scientific paper I would always use these two names/spellings and I'd consider everything else a research negligence by the paper's author. In casual communication like here of course there is more freedom possible. By a strange coïncidence, yesterday night, Carmen brought to my attention the existence of this scientific article about the epidemiology of zombies... The author claims to be named «Robert Smith?», question-mark included. For something that people can't argue about or «improve», this guy's name used up considerable amounts of ink and serious braintime... in *several* newspapers' style-guide committees. And in the end, there was no consensus. http://www.mathstat.uottawa.ca/~rsmith/cover.jpg http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/684873 http://www.mathstat.uottawa.ca/~rsmith/ _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] how to cite the Pure Data in a research paper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: That's true, especially for a name like ChucK, which as far as I've seen, has been consistently spelled with that capital K in research papers where it's turned up. OTOH, the name ChucK is more distinctive *because* of the extra uppercase. On another note, I think Desire Data should be renamed :) Data just for the fun that would happen when someone tries to type that name into ms word. Sorry, could you please explain the joke. I don't know anything MS Word does. If I cared about that kind of pranks, I'd be more inclined to call a piece of software «that software» (all lowercase, without the doublequotes, no trademark symbol) and watch the trouble that ensues. But that's quite hypothetical. In reality, there is already enough trouble arising from uncovering ordinary everyday confusion, that there's nothing that I'd want to actually add to the mess. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Percolate
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, dmotd wrote: i'm just looking at the license now and i'm not sure that this is acutally a problem.. looks like an open style license.. not for resale, non-commerical educaton use only, must credit authors and distribute license. GPL forbids any clauses about non-commercial, non-military, education-only, and any other clauses restricting the freedom to use. (section 7 out of 17) http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html But some other documents may be easier to interpret (but the following are about what is a free license, they aren't about GPL-compatibility per se). FSF's Free Software Definition lists four essential freedoms, the first one being: «The freedom to run the program, for any purpose». http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html OSI's Open Source Definition's sixth item (out of ten) states: «the license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor.» http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php I think that it's clear enough. What's more difficult to grasp is how all the different licenses interact with each other when you use or don't use plugins together... _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Question about object categorizing
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, PSPunch wrote: If by any chance someone can explain the historical background, I think I and others as well would be interested in learning.. The historical background of... what? The classification used in Pd itself? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Art project: blur a movie on external action
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, vibro...@laposte.net wrote: From what i understood, i should use Pd+GEM to achieve my goal. But in GEM documentation, i only found pixel_blur, which looks irrelevant. Feel free to ask me any question, maybe what i explained is not clear enough, or you need extra informations. Well, it would be clearer if anyone of us knew why [pix_blur] is irrelevant. I'm quite experienced in Linux, opensource software, and electronics ; so don't fear to get into tech things. Well, if you want to apply any amount of blur, of any shape of blur, in always the same amount of time, there's only one way that I know about, and it's using Fourier transforms. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] segfault with dynamic loading of abstractions
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Orm Finnendahl wrote: objects and their connections are visible in the gui. Turning dsp off and on makes it work, but trying to automatize it leads to the segfaults from time to time. have you looked at: EXTERN int canvas_suspend_dsp(void); EXTERN void canvas_resume_dsp(int oldstate); So, why would this work, while automatising the turning of dsp off and on would not, and can this happen in a self-modifying abstraction, and then in that case, how does a self-modifying abstraction get to be able to use those two special functions? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] An infinite number of acid + breakbeat loops + wii
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: Thx hard off! I have found a good way to get appealing melodies is to have a bit of fractal stuff going on. One way to do this is to have the same melody at different speeds (double speed, half speed, triple speed, quadruple speed) laid over the top of eachother, and then switch randomly between the normal speed melody and the other speeds. It means you get melodies which are internally self similar and for some reason the brain likes that (well my brain does anyway). Hmmm, can this be called self-similar? well, if you do have speeds 0.5, 1.0, 2.0 and 4.0 at once, then doubling the speed of the whole thing will cause the speeds to increase speeds to 1.0, 2.0, 4.0, 8.0, so with 3 out 4 speeds (or 3 out of 5) the system displays a large amount of approximative self-similarity, but if you add 3.0, 5.0, etc. then depending on which ones you actually choose, it may match much less. Usually, it's called self-similar when the whole thing is equal to a simply transformed (e.g. uniformly scaled) version of itself, but I'd gladly extend it to not-exactly-equal things as well... as long as it's more equal than non-equal... In general, exact powers are a key concept in getting more self-similarity... so for example, you could use just a bunch of powers of two, but if you do use three as a multiplier, use it multiplied by each of those powers of two, and also use many powers of three multiplied by each of those powers of three. This would be more self-similar but it doesn't mean that it'd be any easier to follow. It seems that powers of 2 are a lot, lot easier to think about than powers of 3, 5, 7, ... otherwise, there's not just self-similar patterns that stimulate the mind: also perfect harmonics do (just intonation, etc). so if you use the speeds 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 at once, it's like using the harmonics 1,2,4,6,8 at once in a timbre, or like making a chord of four consecutive fundamentals and a fifth. (actually, unrolled, that's degrees I, VIII, XV, XIX and XXII). On a related note (pun intended), music history started with a predominance of just intonations, because that's what struck a c(h)ord in the mind at first, because it's made of perfect harmonics, but then the less-harmonically-perfect equal-intonation has largely replaced it, because equal-intonation is more self-similar than just-intonation is! Here, self-similarity is important because it allows transpositions of the same melody to appear more closely related. Hoping that those ideas will in turn give you some ideas of how you could tweak your list of speeds, or come up with any other new concepts. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Question about object categorizing
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, András Murányi wrote: There is still some good in this world as categories 1.) are an optional startup plugin (and believe me there will be more startup plugins to piss you off, that's why they are optional) yeah, exactly :) it would definitely solve some social problems if category systems are not considered part of the object-classes themselves. it will save a lot of energy and anger, for better causes. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd and openCV
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Loic Kessous wrote: well, for those interested...but maybe it's a dev subject... Ow... endless potential for nameclashes with GridFlow... maybe there is no clash now, but as both projects use the cv. prefix together with names spelt exactly as in the original OpenCV, it looks like there will be more clashes in the future. (at the moment, GridFlow supports very few OpenCV features.) I will think about a renaming. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] pd, openCV, pointers and indirection.
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Loic Kessous wrote: I understand your point of view, but I am more interested buy the approach than the implementation itself. I mean passing a pointer and not the image itself. Passing the image itself is largely a myth anyway. At a first level, Pd doesn't always pass $1, $2, $3, etc., as separate arguments in C: it often passes the pointer to the list (under the name argv). This is what always happens for running list-methods and anything-methods, as well as when sending list-messages and anything-messages (pd automatically converts argv to non-argv and non-argv to argv whenever needed). At a second level, not much large data is passed as pd arglists: some notable exceptions can happen in [pix_data], [pix_set], [#to_list], [#import], [pix_convolve]'s config, Martin's strings, etc.; plugins such as Gem and GridFlow use a second level of pointers to avoid Pd's argv. This is mostly for this reason: because Pd's argv is limited to being a t_atom array, which is usually too big and inefficient for tightly-formatted data, spending 8 or 16 bytes on storing a 4-byte float when you just want to store a single-byte int, for example. But then, with either level, the way of specifying the pointer to the list allows basically anything to happen, as the pointer doesn't have to be stack allocated. With argv, methods aren't allowed to rely on a past argv after the return is done, but still, the sender of the message can decide the argv to be anything, not necessarily on the stack; this can happen to be fairly permanent data. Beyond that, there is a distinction between systems that let the user deal with the pointerness aspect, and those that try to hide it (to make it more automatic and easier to think about, they pretend to pass the image but doesn't really). Outside of Pd, both strategies are widely used. Perl and Tcl are very good examples of strings that never look like they use pointers but always do. In Pd, ... only GridFlow uses something that looks like pass the image semantics but has a few gotchas, and it's also the only one that can pass an image without allocating a buffer of the same size as the image. In the end, all the video frameworks make the user mess with pointers in some way: * Gem's [pix_separator] * PDP's [pdp_trigger] * GridFlow's [#t] * MaPoD even required the user to free() image buffers using a special object-class. * FrameStein: i don't know (sorry). That's why it's compiled as a dll library I suppose I don't see any link between any of the above notions, and the kind of linkage (dll, etc) it uses. and I wonder how using another solution as shared memory for example could be done in the same goal... loic No idea what you are referring to. I know what shared memory is, I know what indirection is, but I don't know what is the problem that the solution solves, you didn't say that. (And if anything, shared memory introduces new portability concerns.) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] List Message Queueing? ( Note on/off messages into vst~ )
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, saint wrote: I'm looking for a way to send an object (or an external) a bunch of list messages and for that object to then store them and output them at 2ms intervals in a sort of a queue. if the messages are all of a fixed length and all made of floats, you could look into using several [pipe] at once. But if ever you need your messages to be more free-form (variable length, mixed symbols) you may enjoy [textfile] even though you won't be writing to files, reading from files, converting to text, or from text. It's a misnomer really. And because you can't delete the queue items that you are done with ([textfile] only supports deleting the whole contents), then I suppose it'd be better if you use a few counters, and use a second [textfile] so that once in a while, one of the [textfile]s only contains obsolete data, so that you can clear it, so that you don't make a memory-leak. Using externals instead of internals, you could use a single [coll], that can delete single elements. In that case you save yourself the trouble of double-buffering, but afaik you still have to use counters. if you want something even more automatic, I haven't looked into Holzmann's containers, but I assume that they offer a lot more than either [textfile] or [coll]. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] [PD-announce] Cours PureData de 50 heures chez Vidéographe
PureData est un logiciel solidement implanté dans le monde des arts interactifs. Il s'agit d'un de ces rares logiciels qui servent à tout faire ce qu'on ne peut pas faire avec des logiciels d'usage plus courant: les solutions ordinaires requièrent des problèmes ordinaires, et pour tout le reste il y a PureData. C'est un logiciel de programmation semi-visuelle à flot de données: on utilise le dessin pour exprimer la circulation de l'information, et l'écrit pour décrire chaque composante dans un diagramme. La formation vous introduit à PureData et à diverses théories sur les manières de programmer ce que l'on veut programmer et sur la manière de quantifier divers aspects du son, de l'image et de toute information que l'on peut entrer dans l'ordinateur. Quand : 10 cours, le samedi de 10h à 16h, du 16 janvier 2010 au 20 mars 2010. Chaque journée se déroule en deux temps, une partie essentiellement théorique dans laquelle vous testez la théorie au fur et à mesure et une partie plus pratique dans laquelle vous faites une révision/synthèse de la théorie. Cours 1: Les principes de base de la programmation, du flot de données et de PureData en particulier. Cours 2: Sous-patches, abstractions, GOP, documentation, évolution, fiabilité. Cours 3: Gestion des flots de nombres et de leur degré de précision. Exemples avec le son et l'Arduino. Cours 4: La multidimensionnalité, pour gérer les informations en rangées, colonnes, et autres. Exemple avec la caméra. Cours 5: Le filtrage linéaire (les égalisateurs, les flous, les spectres, etc.). Exemples avec le son et avec l'image et comparaison des points communs entre le son et l'image. Introduction aux morphismes (analogies). Cours 6: Théorie des couleurs. Espaces de couleurs. Sélection de couleur. Utilisation de morphismes pour faire à la fois des effets spatiaux et des effets de couleur à partir des mêmes outils. Cours 7: Tables. Échantillonnage et montage en temps réel. Exemples non seulement avec le son, mais aussi avec la vidéo dans toutes ses dimensions (slitscanning, etc). Cours 8: Détection de mouvement et de présence. Centroïdes et étiquetage de régions d'image. Cours 9: GEM et la modélisation 3D. Cours 10: transformation du son en vidéo et l'inverse, et autres correspondances. Chaque participant recevra une trousse de départ (Un poste PC Linux par 2 candidats). Lieu: La formation se donne dans l'espace et le laboratoire du PARC de Vidéographe Production : 4550 Garnier (coin Mont-Royal), Montréal. Prérequis: Aucun Éligibilité: Cette formation s'adresse à des travailleurs autonomes en arts médiatiques ou à des travailleurs culturels, tous résidents de la ville de Montréal. Nombre de candidats : 10 Frais d'inscription : 150$ (modalités de paiement : Visa, Interac et argent comptant) Contact : Pierre-Luc Audet, agent de liaison, 514.521.2116 poste 10, product...@videographe.qc.ca, entête du message : formation PureData Cette formation bénéficie d'une aide financière d'Emploi-Québec, volet formation continue, Arts et culture, Île de Montréal. Date: 2010 Durée:10 jours répartis sur 3 mois Tarif membre: $150.00 Tarif Non-membre: $150.00 _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-announce mailing list pd-annou...@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Cours PureData de 50 heures chez Vidéographe
On Sun, 4 Oct 2009, vibro...@laposte.net wrote: Miam, je veux bien de tes slides, j'ai tant de mal a digérer la doc de Pd... Elles ne sont pas publiques, désolé, mais certaines choses vont aboutir dans GridFlow avant que le cours commence. Mais je ne suis pas à Montréal mais à Berlin, Ça tombe mal, il n'y aura aucun non-résident de Montréal qui pourra être inscrit... le seul truc qui pourrait varier c'est pour les gens habitant les autres villes de l'Île de Montréal, je sais pas. En tout cas, l'explication est ici: Cette formation bénéficie d'une aide financière d'Emploi-Québec, volet formation continue, Arts et culture, Île de Montréal. Alors c'est clair, il s'agit d'un truc de formation professionnelle subventionnée par l'État, et l'État, c'est le Québec. La restriction à une seule région plutôt que les 17 régions québécoises, c'est dommage, mais en même temps, PureData est pratiquement inexistant dans les 16 autres régions, alors il faut être content que ça soit régionalisé. L'autre truc dommage, c'est qu'il y a un seul tarif, alors qu'on pourrait simplement dire que les gens non-couverts par la subvention doivent payer le montant non subventionné, par exemple le double du prix (150 piastres = 95 euros; 300 piastres = 190 euros) ou un peu plus. Mais si ça se faisait, il y a quand même le problème d'être sur place durant deux mois, parce que nous ne faisons pas de téléprésence. et je suis chômeur, et pas travailleur, ca peut compter quand même? Si tu remplissais les autres conditions, oui, certainement! Il s'agit d'un programme d'aide à l'emploi. Ce type de programme exclut les gens qui ont déjà une job stable, c'est tout. «Travailleur autonome» est un euphémisme pour «Personne sans sécurité d'emploi et sans avantages sociaux, qui doit se démerder toute seule pour trouver des clients, de l'équipement et un local». _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd, openCV, pointers and indirection.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Loic Kessous wrote: thanks Mathieu, it is still not clear for me what make things faster in one case or another but it helps. 1. data spacing: the more your data is spaced in memory, the more the cache has to load lots of data, because it assumes that the data is not very fragmented. Pd in 64-bit mode spends half of the argv space on padding. Here by spacing I mean the difference of starting position of two elements next to each other (e.g. where are $1 and $2 in RAM). 2. data element size: when the data doesn't have padding, this is the same as data spacing. Pd in in any mode spends half of the nonpadding argv space on type information. 3. type checking: if you have to check that every element of an argv is indeed a float, you need to use twice more data, and it's twice more spacing, but on top of that you need one conditional per element, just in case it isn't a float, and conditionals are getting comparatively slow on modern CPUs because they're harder to accelerate than the rest. 4. time fragmentation: a low block size may mean the CPU has to reload things in the cache more often, if the CPU's other tasks need the same cache for other purposes between the processing of two blocks. Bigger blocks mean that the CPU can concentrate. Having to repeatedly call, init, deinit, return, is also something that can take time. 5. cache fitting: repeatedly making long sweeps on very long arrays can make the cache completely useless. it's better to do as many things as possible on a small area of RAM at a time. Based on those five criteria, we could compare various storage and computation strategies of various internals and externals of pd, provided that we get a bit more precise on some things. There may also be additional criteria. loic PS: what do you call Martin's strings ? I thought I knew, but I borked that. Martin's strings are [mrpeach/str], but they don't use pd lists of floats, they use a custom atom type called BLOB, which is essentially a form of double-indirection. (POINTER is also a double-indirection, but it was meant for DS, though it's often hijacked to be used in other ways.) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd, openCV, pointers and indirection.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Loic Kessous wrote: loic PS: what do you call Martin's strings ? I thought I knew, but I borked that. Martin's strings are [mrpeach/str], but they don't use pd lists of floats, they use a custom atom type called BLOB, And the weird thing is that actually I knew that very well, but I still wrote «Martin's strings» in the list without thinking, I don't know why. Sleep deprivation, drugs, distractions, name it, blame it. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] English-speaking German piano
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Greg wrote: Some frames of this video show puredata in action. Very cool project. Would any German-speaking folk like to say more about this (in English :) )? I'm not German-speaking and frankly I am glad to finally hear more out of this maschine than the abnormally short piece that was played on this system at Pd Convention 2004. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] starting the release cycle for Pd-extended 0.42
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, András Murányi wrote: Alrite, 'books' sounded a bit alien not only because real books are offline but also because they cost money, I come from the year 2078 to tell you that real books are a purpose and not a device. A book is a convenient unit of a large amount of text. Virtual books are not virtual, because their purpose is real, and so is their usefulness. And electronic books are not electronic, because fileformats never cared about electrons. And regardless of the money that they cost or that they don't, books can be quite priceless. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] ANN: Purity dynamic patching for Python release 0.1.1
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, marius schebella wrote: I guess I am looking for something like: for i in range(2): obj1 = pdobj.osc~(i) obj2 = pdobj.throw~(bus-1) pdconnect(obj1 0, obj2 0) obj1 = pdobj.receive~(bus-1) obj2 = pdobj.dac~ pdconnect(obj1 0, obj2 0 1) What I had made in 2002 or so, was something with this syntax: for i in 0...2 obj1 = FObject[:osc~,i] obj2 = FObject[:throw~,:bus-1] obj1.connect 0, obj2, 0 end obj1 = FObject[:receive~,:bus-1] obj2 = FObject[:dac~] obj1.connect 0, obj2, 0 obj1.connect 0, obj2, 1 except that the colon prefix (to mean symbol instead of string) didn't exist in ruby yet, and except that this system wasn't connected with pd in that direction, so you couldn't create those pd objects from ruby. also eventually i got to think that symbol-string differences are useless. this is just an example syntax, just to say that this kind of stuff existed in some form at some point and so, it's a precedent that can be used as inspiration if one wants to. (the python syntax is a bit different, but i thought it's similar enough that I may as well quote an actual example of my old ruby stuff) and then call this script from within pd itself, hehe... This is the kind of thing I had back then, exactly: things that were officially externals, that were small scripts, that built a patch as if it were some kind of abstraction. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] List Message Queueing? ( Note on/off messages into vst~ )
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, saint wrote: i just thought of the textfile idea a while after i posted. i use one textfile that when it's caught up with it's queue it deletes it's contents and starts over. do you think there could be a memory leak in this patch??? i use it with a 2ms interval value... ah, I didn't think about your particular application, so the double-queue trick was just in case the way you use the container causes it to never catch up. (when i say leak i mean just a practical leak, no matter how it happens: thus even though you can see and control the dead data in a normal way from pd, as long as the memory gets increasingly wasted and nothing is done to clean it up, it's still a leak to me, though leak-detectors wouldn't find that because they only look for unrecoverable leaks. in pd, those may only happen because of bugs in externals.) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Turning non-audio data feeds into audio
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Jerome Covington wrote: Is anyone interested in sharing their process for turning real-time, non-audio data feeds, into music? See a great example of one possible direction, here. Coïncidentally, I wrote some thoughts about it in the Pd chatroom a few hours before your email, because of a similar topic there: « musical meaningfulness comes from meaningfulness of the data beforehand... basically, if you put garbage in, you get garbage out. the exception to that is that a programme is a kind of data in itself, so the programme can be considered a kind of meaningful input... and if the programme imposes itself as the source of the meaning and successfully downplays the incoming garbage, it can make the output meaningful; but unless one is very skilled at understanding the information theory standpoint of music, using random values gives you just more meaningless music like what you are talking about... sort of like picking a random book from the library of babel. » http://vimeo.com/5415629 now this is what I add to my above thoughts, this time in relationship to the video: without necessarily explicitly thinking about information theory, one can get to interesting results intuitively... one essentially has to focus on getting beautiful results for likely inputs instead of being content with whatever fits with the description of a certain art concept. Any former stock-market music I had listened to sounded like crap. What Patrick did was to make his programme insert so much beauty and coherence in the market's noise, that it made it sound meaningful... actually, it's more like this: the programme can only output music that sounds reasonably good no matter the input, and the meaningless input selects one of the possible nice-sounding outputs. Overall, the music is more shaped by Patrick's æsthetic decisions than by the stock market, and it's perfect like that. so, Jérôme, I would mostly just suggest that you make patches so that the results sound fairly good no matter the input you give them, and optionally, if you can make the input also recognisable in the output, it's a bonus feature that can feel very rewarding, but it depends on the context... for feeding stockmarket data it may not matter as much, but for live interactive data from performers or visitors, they have to recognise their own impact on the music, else the point is going to be lost on them, really. but even for stockmarket data, it's better if you can recognise the stock price in the music, because if you can't, you could have taken that data from anywhere else and it wouldn't matter, so why would you call it stockmarket music then?... so maybe you wanted people to explain their actual processes, but I hope that you will also enjoy this reflexion on the question of what might make processes be good or not. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] clap clap bonk bonk
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Justin Glenn Smith wrote: Mathieu Bouchard wrote: i just looked up pop filter when seeing that word in cgc's reply, and it seems like it's a highpass filter, though it doesn't use those words in the description I read, but I guess it from what they say about clipping and aspirated plosives. It is not so much a question of highpass vs. lowpass as it is a directional filtering - the pop filter attenuates the most direct path of the sound Attenuation is normally not frequency-independent, unless it is designed to be so. So pretty much anything has an highpass and/or lowpass aspect to it unless you compensate it or you're just lucky... I can't imagine studio mics doing things that favour the bounced-off waves at the detriment of the direct sound... and if I am not mistaken they are designed to attenuate more with a higher energy burst of sound (this attenuation achieved via air turbulence), Uh, wouldn't air turbulence would be a consequence (side-effect) of the filtering, not the cause of it? This turbulence theory may be wrong, I looked for confirmation or denial online but my google skills are failing me. In the case of sibilants, there is a turbulence going on inside of the mouth, but once it comes out of the mouth, it becomes just noise. Pretty much any large-scale natural [noise~]-like sound has to be generated by some kind of turbulence. Turbulence is normally a generator of noise, isn't it? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] turn abstractions into subpatches
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, i...@timvets.net wrote:
just an idea: This would be a feature I would like: Turn all
abstractions used in a patch into subpatches, replacing the $1's in
objects inside by the actual assigned numbers or arguments. That way you
could more esily distribute a patch as one file.
It doesn't work with objects that use t_canvasenvironment, such as
GridFlow's [args], but also, [canvasargs] and other similar things...
whenever an abstraction looks up its own dir or search path.
the exact quote, from the g_canvas.c definition:
struct _canvasenvironment {
t_symbol *ce_dir; /* directory patch lives in */
int ce_argc; /* number of $ arguments */
t_atom *ce_argv; /* array of $ arguments */
int ce_dollarzero; /* value of $0 */
t_namelist *ce_path; /* search path */
};
_ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ...
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Re: [PD] pd_opencv 0.2-rc4
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, olsen wrote: compiling it from source works except a few warnings but on opening the help patches undefined symbols are reported: /home/olsen/pd/extra/pix_opencv/pix_opencv_bgstats.pd_linux: /home/olsen/pd/extra/pix_opencv/pix_opencv_bgstats.pd_linux: undefined symbol: _ZNK12GemException6reportEv This is a conflict between Gem.pd_linux 0.92 and Gem 0.90 headers, or equivalent. I don't know the exact versions and dates involved, but at some date, a function named «GemException::report() const» was removed from Gem, for whatever reason, and it causes the GridFlow-Gem adaptör to fail to load if you used the Gem headers bundled with GridFlow, or just old headers. Basically, all Gem externals that are outside of the main Gem library have to be recompiled once in a while, to match the Gem ABI. Perhaps Johannes has a few words to say about how this change happened? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] denial of service attack
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, Andrew Faraday wrote: WHY Yeah, frankly, it's a lot easier to eat all RAM in other ways. #N canvas 0 0 450 300 10; #X obj 6 27 loadbang; #X obj 6 8 namecanvas z; #X obj 6 46 until; #X msg 6 65 \; z obj 0 0 table foo 1000; #X connect 0 0 2 0; #X connect 2 0 3 0; _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] denial of service attack
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, András Murányi wrote: OK, you're all welcome to crash my pd but not to run hostile code on my machine. Now, we now that the code posted my Claude can eat up our RAM but can it write to an executable region or do other really nasty things? On the other hand - does a fresh copy of Vanilla or extended offer simple ways to run system commands? If yes, no odd stack overflow methods are needed to hack a system. Just [textfile] and [soundfiler] are enough to overwrite important files. A user's most important data is typically writable, and write-protected files are usually the files that are easy to reinstall from a DVD or whatever. And then writability is only one half of the problem when you can have your personal data uploaded to your enemies. This also goes for any other code one runs on your system. Max by default isn't any safer than Pd by default, and then Perl/Python/Ruby/Tcl/Lua/Bash interpreters by default aren't any safer, and there isn't any point in banning any of those if your four-year-old daughter still can download random EXE files and run them. And so on. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] denial of service attack
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, András Murányi wrote: 2009/10/17 Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca Just [textfile] and [soundfiler] are enough to overwrite important files. A user's most important data is typically writable, and write-protected files are usually the files that are easy to reinstall from a DVD or whatever. And then writability is only one half of the problem when you can have your personal data uploaded to your enemies. Or a worm/rootkit set up on your box. if a user has a single non-root account in which s/he does as many things as possible, then there's not many important things that you can only do as root. therefore rootkits have limited usefulness. it's still a VERY good idea to avoid rootkits, but gaining root isn't making the difference between stealing an addressbook or not, it isn't making the difference between rm -rf ~ or not, and it doesn't make the difference between running a spambot or not. Indeed. What's worse, i download scripts from unknown dudes and run them root on a daily basis (most of them are makefiles ;o) Well, I'm sure you trust your OS provider a lot more than random fictitious people sending you YourDocument.ZIP.EXE that are associated with application /usr/bin/wine... _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: Mathieu Bouchard escribió: Is it because it makes the music any better, or because what musicians are after is not just the music but also the dance that a musician makes with the instrument? In a physical instrument the position of the body when playing modifies the dynamics of movements, so variations in the dynamics of movement produce also diferent dynamics of sound. If you press a key with a strong movement it will almost shurelly be different if you do it sitting on a chair, with your head and back aiming behind your gravitational center, that if you do it whith your body aiming foreward or if you do it standing on your feet. Yeah... well, I guess it's possible to imitate the natural playing style of any body position using any other body position, but then it would be a bit like ventriloquy. For example (in Spanish), the vowel A is open, vowels E+O are medium, and vowels I+U are closed, but what matters is the amount of opening in the mouth as a whole, not just the tongue or the jaw. You could do it with just the tongue and not the jaw, but it's more difficult and the only point is to give a different impression with the sound than what it looks like you'd be doing if you were talking normally. gives the musician a wider sound palette (Sorry, I am not shure if this is the word). sounds like a good word for that. Art is suposed to be a free environment, meaning that it should be guided or conditioned only by the artist. According to whom? Anyway, as any definition of art is possible while it must be contextualized, I agree that we could talk of other kinds of art where freedom is not important or does not exist at all. Yeah, the word art just like the word being and the word freedom, are used in many related and not-so-related ways by different people as tools to express their ideas and ideals. I admit right away that I don't know nothing about those philosophers' conception of art, but it sounds quite peculiar that they would claim such a thing... they surely use a non-recursive (non-transitive) definition of guided and conditioned, skipping over all the thinking about what guides or conditions the artist, which is nice if that's what they want to skip thinking about. Anyway, that's the thought that made me ask the question in the first place. If you answer yes to the third, the probabilities are that your mind is twisted after years of taking drugs, and maybe it was already twisted before you studied art or started taking drugs. Sorry, I was joking... I was just joking and being metaphoric and rethoric. I know I know, but jokes are as meaningful as anything else, else we wouldn't bother saying them in the first place. Drugs usually come relatively late in the picture. They don't tend to make art more twisted, just more defective. They also don't have much to do with being twisted. Besides that, There have existed circunstances when drugs have been part of the creative environment and I wouldn´t agree that the results were defective. Yeah. For example, if a musician has a headache and is supposed to be recording right now, the musician takes aspirin. that's part of the creative process. But also, if the musician has adopted a «lifestyle» such that various substances of dubious usefulness have hijacked his/her dopamine subsystem, then a stable amount of those substances have to be taken in to support the creative process, else it becomes a process of frantically running around the city to find the appropriate shady people that support the musician's brain damage. I know what you mean, I just want to point to other realities that are probably taking most of the room that drugs are taking in this vocation. And I would say that defective is another relativable concept. Yeah, for example, drug users who argue that everything is alright end up changing their minds about it and start claiming that drugs made them lose years of productivity, lots of opportunities, ... they think it's relative, because it sounded like a good idea, then it sounded like it ok, then it sounded like it would be better without, then it sounded like it was a tremendous waste after all. it's all relative. and then there are those who you can only imagine wishing to claim the same, because they passed away. And as perception is not transferable, neither is poetic or aesthetic experience. Well, despite our frustrations with it, plain talking goes a long way transferring a lot of perception, experience, and other ideas. [...] I understand what you mean, but the fact is that perception is not fully transferable. If it was, there would be no difference between any sound/image and a description of it. You didn't say fully and in that case it doesn't mean the same at all. That gives us a lot of possibilities, none better than other, only differents. [...] There is no absoluteness, no central authority
Re: [PD] pdpedia and spam
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, dmotd wrote: i understand yr frustration with the pdpedia, but i am still of the belief that pd and its numerous (count thousands) of objects (and abstractions) do need a pure reference online, and i do believe the wiki format suits maintaining a said reference. If only a PdPedia meeting could occur so that all participants can finally agree that PdPedia is not gonna go anywhere and is taking the energy and attention away from improving the currently most-up-to-date documentation sources... However, googlable online docs would still be a good idea, as long as it is all done automatically, so that it doesn't duplicate any efforts, doesn't splinter other documentation projects, and doesn't cause headaches on how to merge the different documentation sources together. Edition features can be replaced by appropriate mailing-lists and enough svn accesses for everybody. *-help.pd files need your help. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pdpedia and spam
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, Marvin Humphrey wrote: I had a choice once for a wiki I ran. A) Leave it to the spam fiends. B) Install captchas. I chose B. The rationale: a wiki with no captchas is better than a wiki with captchas, but a wiki with captchas is better than no wiki at all. wait. why wouldn't it be better to just have no wiki at all, even in a situation where there wouldn't be any spam and the captcha wouldn't be annoying? I mean, what is the problem that is solved by the existence of a wiki, and which are the problems that are introduced by the existence of a wiki (not even thinking about spam and captchas), and how do those problems balance ? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] computer music WAS: Re: Pd at a livecoding event on the BBC
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: in the end, people still choose to spend their time with certain art and not certain other art, and this is implicitly a judgement of value. those judgements are both relativables and an implicit necessity of the art world. [...] There are plenty of reasons one might spend their time with certain art and not certain other art, without making an implicit judgment about artistic value at all Yeah, my comment was not the whole story, but you know, when you're starting back from scratch after «nothing is better than anything else», how long and how detailed would you write immediately when you don't know whether you will get a reply? (area of expertise, access, medical condition, risk aversion to spending one's time examining new works, etc.). So why do you say this is an implicit necessity of the art world? I don't get it. Because I'm trying to say that even if everybody claimed that anything is as good as anything else, then there are still signs we can extract from observing people's behaviour, to figure out what is important to them, regardless of the words; and I'd say that this may also be a key concept to figure out what's going on when absolutism reigns, because in either case, the words bad and good and beautiful and ugly (etc) can't be used anymore for one's own opinions, as absolutism steals those words and total relativism trashes them, which both means that those words aren't yours, aren't mine, and they aren't anybody else's. Those things you are listing, are useful to consider for building new definitions of bad/good/beautiful/ugly/etc. There are several kinds of definitions that we might want to use, though. I might say that if an artwork is hidden from public view, then it makes it less valuable, and someone else may say that it makes it more valuable, and someone else may say it doesn't matter, and all three will successfully argue for three different kinds of value, and all of those ideas are different aspects of value in general. It's really hard to talk about these topics and be clear in that few words, though. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] latency issue
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009, Justin Glenn Smith wrote: Also, many commercial audio apps misreport latency; for example a large number, if not most of them, report only the latency introduced by the app itself, which is in their case actually cumulative with the latency introduced with the OS drivers and the latency inherant in the DAC / ADC of the card itself. With jack, at least, you are getting a much more accurate picture of the latency. Yet Jack still expects you to be responsible for adding 1 ms of latency per foot of air that the sound has to go through, in and out. And then, there are all sorts of brain latencies. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] problem making an audio-thread-safe external
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009, Claude Heiland-Allen wrote: Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: iret1 = pthread_create( thread, NULL, cwiid_pthread2_setRumble, (void*) rPars); This creates a new thread. pthread_join(thread, NULL); This waits (blocking Pd's main thread) until the new thread terminates. So, why create a new thread only to immediately wait for it to terminate - that makes the program essentially behave in a single threaded way. But if ever there's any way that this gets to run in a multithreaded way, then the post() in cwiid_pthread2_setRumble will violate the singlethreadedness of m_pd.h because sys_lock() is not being used. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] founders of computer music, about past and future...
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, Fernando Gadea wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSd4MLVOqFM is there any transcript of this? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] [PD-announce] GridFlow 0.9.5
http://gridflow.ca/download/gridflow-0.9.5.tar.gz version 0.9.5 (2009.10.18): * added [gf.print] (aliased to [print]) * added [cv/#Ellipse], [cv/#HarrisCorner], [cv/#KMeans] * renamed goop.pd to surface_tension.pd * [#in quicktime]: get also produces messages framerate, height, width, depth, codec. * added [#draw_hpgl], [#reinterval], [#cluster_avg] * added [norecurse], [gf.error] * [#color]: added bang * [#inner]: fixed infinite loop bug with large right-inlet grids. * [#transpose]: fixed crash with zero-sized grids. * [receives]: empty prefix automatically turned into (no prefix). * [#in grid] and [#out grid]: fixed several bugs * [#make_cross] can make rectangular crosses * [demux] alias removed (please use [shunt]) * renamed every [cv.Something] to [cv/#Something] to avoid any future nameclashes with Loïc's library. * automatically removes artificial stacksize limits of the OS that may have caused segfaults in the last year or so, if you didn't use ulimit -s unlimited or somesuch * added [# c2p] and [# p2c] (polar transforms) * added new examples: polar.pd, radial_blur.pd * fixed more OSX bugs * fixed [#grade] bug (thanks to mescalinum) * removed support for gem 0.89 and some 0.90 versions _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-announce mailing list pd-annou...@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] latency issue
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009, Justin Glenn Smith wrote: Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Also, I forgot to mention, there was a thorough discussion on latency a few years ago: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-ot/2006-12/001629.html Of particular interest from that thread is a simple way to measure latency: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-ot/2006-12/001642.html Again, this experiment measures the difference between two latencies. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] latency issue
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Bjørn Nielsen wrote: Yeah, sorry that I said there was no latency, I do know that every software needs to process. What I meant to say was that the latency while recording was so low in fx Pro Tools, that I don't hear it. That is not the case with PD. Btw, in the audio preferences, what do you choose as Delay (msec) ? How low can you get this to be? (This is also known as -audiobuf.) Probably this is a really silly question and is the first setting you played with, but I don't know. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] latency issue
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Bjørn Nielsen wrote: The lowest delay in ms I have reached before the sound gets quicky is 11ms, but it depends on whether I use Jackpilot and what audiointerface I use (the macbook internal soundcard can't do 11ms, but my mbox2 can). It was my impression that this delay is all the latency PD have, I don't know, I'd risk saying that the delay in question is simply added to the base delay of the in/out system, but I wouldn't risk guaranteeing it without rereading all of the s_audio*.c code again... I forgot a fair bit of it. In theory, the soundcard needs to fill a block before it can pass it to pd, then pd needs to process a whole block before a block of output is ready, and then the time it takes to play a block is a block duration, but if you look at the minimum time difference between in and out, you don't need to count the normal duration of the output block in there. So you only count blocksize once, and then, if the processing time is really smooth, then your minimum audiobuf size is the blocksize delay times the % of CPU that pd is using. So if your patch takes 75% CPU and has 64-byte blocks at 48000 kHz, then you compute (1+75/100)*64/48000 = 0.002333... s = 2.333... ms; and you could set pd's audiobuf to (75/100)*64/48000 = 0.001 s = 1 ms exactly. Obviously, this is not what you are getting, because the processing isn't that much smooth. This may depend on the speed of the multitasker in the OS itself, the quality of the realtime priority system, and various little hiccups that happen in Pd itself. Many Pd internals and externals make it hard, by expecting a file-open to take 0 ms of logical time, thus if it really takes 50 ms, then you need at least 50 ms - 0 ms = 50 ms of audiobuf on top of the minimum required audiobuf. but maybe I'm wrong? Is it even possible to measure where in the system the latency occur? The best you can do is make a laundry list of things be checking for, but Pd can't possibly have all the information. Btw, can you get doc/7.stuff/tools/latency.pd to work? and how would one interpret that figure? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd_opencv 0.2-rc4
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote: Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Basically, all Gem externals that are outside of the main Gem library have to be recompiled once in a while, to match the Gem ABI. the same holds true for all Gem externals that are inside the main Gem library and/aka internals. the process is more automated, though. Yeah, I'm saying that _especially_ because it's less automated one way than the other. And people only notice it when they get undefined symbol or whatever. This can happen with any Pd library that other Pd libraries link to, in any machine code format (.pd_linux, etc), but it tends to happen more with Gem because Gem is quite popular. Perhaps Johannes has a few words to say about how this change happened? Revision: 2978 virtual void report(const char*origin=NULL) const throw(); Well, I meant, what kind of change it was, for what purpose. I would very much like to have a stable extendable API, and it's somewhere on my TODO-list. the current API is rather hmmm. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's everybody's sweetest dream and yet it's everybody's nearly-last item on the todo list, and that's not by lack of good intentions... anyhow, all in all: use the version of Gem you compiled/linked your Gem-external with. Yeah. I think that Pd-extended does make that easier. In the future, people will use even more precompiled externs with Pd. Pd-extended has had quite a tremendously good impact on Pd, and I don't just mean no more new pd-list threads about -Werror every week or so. ;) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] fast cam
On Thu, 22 Oct 2009, Pall Thayer wrote: Jean-Michel Dumas wrote: Some models go up to 200fps Mine goes to 11. You mean 1.1 ? as in USB 1.1... Still have a bunch of those cams around. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] fast cam
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009, Pall Thayer wrote: Actually, I meant as in Spinal Tap - It goes to 11! :-) Yeah... I understood. I had heard of that joke over a decade before I finally watched Spinal Tap. But I was trying to make another joke on top of it. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] fast cam
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009, Páll Þayer wrote: #N canvas 1 48 450 300 10; #X obj 169 34 vsl 15 170 0 11 0 0 empty empty empty 0 -9 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 16900 1; http://www.cloudera.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/volume_dials.jpg http://rlv.zcache.com/spinal_tap_one_louder_tshirt-p235551580107438137trlf_400.jpg _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] comment object
On Sat, 24 Oct 2009, IOhannes zmölnig wrote: well, a comment is a comment rather than an advertising label or whatever. i guess it is meant mainly for internal documentation of the patch (like for unknown reasons these two objects must not be connected if you don't want a crash). therefore comment was deemed to be unnecessary for gop. Btw, I am using a [cnv]'s label to make text appear thru a GOP, but now, how do I make spaces run portably? I am using nbsp (non-breaking spaces) so that it works in pd (in non-dd branches), but pd-extended 0.41 on OSX assumes iso-latin-1 whereas pd-extended 0.42 on Ubuntu 9 assumes utf-8, and so, the spaces that i made on Ubuntu and look fine on Ubuntu look like pairs of empty squares on OSX. any ideas? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd-GUI-Rewrite test builds
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, colet.patr...@free.fr wrote: Now I can admire the ugly tcl/tk-8.4 GUI, in french, but with curious symbols replacing letters with accent like é or ê probably same problem on OSX... instead of é, do you see à followed by © ? if not, then it's a different problem than usual. P.Boivin noticed it when he tried using my abstractions that use my nbsp (nonbreaking spaces) in IEMGUI labels... they appear as pairs of little squares. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] is there an object that emits bang when a subpatcher is restored?
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: I guess the title says it all. Not to be confused with #X restore ... Instead of a loadbang, this thing would emit a bang whenever a patcher is restored (e.g. [pd something] is closed by default, and every time it is restored, obviously after being closed it would emit a bang from this object). Is there such a thing? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] GEM support in GridFlow
the GEM support in GridFlow 0.9.6 doesn't use GEM's headers anymore, so, no need to install the GEM sources, configure them and point to them. people tended to get this wrong anyway. this new implementation also is less kludgy in several ways, as it doesn't use CPPExtern and thus doesn't need funny Zaphod-like objects (two heads: one for GEM, one for GridFlow). i know it's gonna blow up at runtime with a future unspecified version of GEM, but we'll know that we got there when we get there. In the meanwhile it just saved us from some unspecified amount of work needed to support multiple versions of GEM at once (GridFlow would have needed three binaries for three versions of GEM and now doesn't anymore). in short, it's a happy day for GEM-GridFlow cultural exchanges. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] font
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I forgot to mention, I just changed the font from Bitstream Vera to DejaVu in SVN. what for? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] font
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Nov 2, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I forgot to mention, I just changed the font from Bitstream Vera to DejaVu in SVN. what for? Bitstream was removed from Debian and Ubuntu in favor of DejaVu. Does that change the font's character aspect ratio? e.g. with nominal font size 10, each character is 6 by 13 with the pd-extended 0.42 that I have (dated before your change). is it still 6x13 now? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] cooled~ for OSX intel
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, hard off wrote: all the patch is there, i am keeping no secrets. but still people expect me to do all the work to add features to something which i gave them for free and for which they can modify as they like. The better it is, the more people will wish more. If you see a feature request, chances are that it also means: thank you. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd-extended build on 9.10 /gem 0.92.1 eeepc = no luck with v4l2
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote: recordQT4L.cpp: In function ?lqt_file_type_t guess_qtformat(const char*)?: recordQT4L.cpp:96: error: invalid conversion from ?const char*? to ?char*? yah, this is dues to an overly pedantic compiler (or probably: invalid headers: the line the error is referring to is (here; but i might have a different version :-)) using the (const char*) argument to guess_qtformat() as input for strchr(). according to my man-pages, strchr() indeed takes (const char*) rather than (char*). if this is indeed the problem, just add a cast to (const char*) to the call of strchr(), and file a bug-report to ubuntu that they are shipping broken headers) hi, the problem is not the type of «filename», it's the type of «extension», because the error message is about casting const to non-const, and not the other way around. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] combining 2 or more cameras to output 1 stream in Linux
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, jim wrote: Does anyone know the easiest way of combining 2 or more camera outputs into one stream? ie. how can I take two cameras using 320 x 240 and generate a wider image 640x240? Is this possible in PD? I would like the resulting stream to be available in v4l ie /dev/video0 + /dev/video1 = /dev/video2 . Any thoughts on this? Thanks, Jim If I have two images coming out from two [#in], I can make a wider image that contains both images side to side using [#join 1], but this is not the only way of putting images together to form a bigger image. for example, it could be about alternating slices of both images. In that case, I'd use a [#remap_image] after the [#join 1], to shuffle things around a bit. But you didn't say whether you want to do this with GEM, PDP or GF. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] GridFlow 0.9.6 for Mac OS X
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, mark edward grimm wrote: although... when i mouse over the gridflow [#out window] i get the spinning beach ball - this is in all example patches, so obviously the When I wrote the window code for OSX, I couldn't get it to work, and then James Tittle fixed the bugs so that it starts displaying pixels, but he didn't fix those bugs. That was in 2004 or so. No-one has worked on that module ever since... (except for keeping it in sync with changes in gridflow.h) I am running 10.6. Well aware this is compiled for 10.4, could this be the problem? No, I had this problem back when I made this code for 10.2 in 2003 or 2004. (I don't seem to be an OSX programmer.) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Thirty-second meeting of the Pd club of, Montr?al, QC
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: Oh, I thought thirty-second meeting meant a meeting of the duration of thirty seconds - lol It never crossed my mind. Any club meeting under three hours, that is... it's that much unthinkable. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Finding $0 and dealing with it in messages
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote: Alexandre Porres hat gesagt: // Alexandre Porres wrote: But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and people always get confused and think they can just throw $0 in messages. That may be because your students assume, that $1 in a message box is the same as $1 in an object box when in fact it's something different. That may be because you assume that objectboxes' $0 must have something to do with $1,$2,$3,... when in fact it's something different. $3 stands for ce_argv[2] $2 stands for ce_argv[1] $1 stands for ce_argv[0] $0 stands for ce_dollarzero it's a special case no matter what. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Finding $0 and dealing with it in messages
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Roman Haefeli wrote: On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 18:08 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that using $0 to get the selector could be confusing? because i want to get the selector of an object-box as well (it's name). What the hell is the selector of an object box? when an objectbox is created, its contents («binbuf») are $-evaluated as when a messagebox receives a message (but commas and semicolons are left untouched), and then the whole contents are sent to pd_objectmaker as a message. therefore [moses 42] has receiver=pd_objectmaker, selector=moses, $1=42. The selector is the creator's name, which is usually the same as the class' name, but not always (because aliases are possible). The difference is mostly only visible in the default names of helpfiles. I often say that the classname is the selector, even though it's not technically true, because it's almost true (a damn lot more than calling it the objectname, anyway). _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] externals installlation
On Sat, 14 Nov 2009, Aditya Mandayam wrote: i'd like to use some of the following: http://zwizwa.be/pd/ however the default path that make and make install refer to are /usr/local/lib/pd/ now i dont have any such folders - how do i modify this? usually, ./configure has the --prefix option, for which the default value is «/usr/local». Thus if you want to install in /home/aditya/lib/pd you would say «./configure --prefix=/home/aditya». _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] freeverb and denormals
On Sat, 14 Nov 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: It appears that current iteration of freeverb~ is susceptible to denormals bug. Namely, feeding silence after sound hogs cpu (I chuckled by reading Pd's CPU footprint which was in excess of 400%). Adding a tiniest amount of DC bias inside Pd solves this but I wonder shouldn't this be simply added to the freeverb c code instead? On which CPUs does this problem occur? It seems both annoying and a good excuse to slow down programmes on CPUs that don't have the problem (?). _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Finding $0 and dealing with it in messages
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: with dollsym i really mean what Pd internally understands as A_DOLLSYM, that is a symbol constructed with a dollar+number and something else, e.g. $1_bla or /foo/$2/bla but not an A_DOLLARG, which is a a dollar+number, e.g. $1. It's really a Dollar and not a Doll Arg. Though you could ask why is it a Doll Sym and not a Dollar Symbol... And why Dollar when the $ character is $ because it looks like the S in Substitute... Anyway, in m_pd.h, A_DOLLAR exists and A_DOLLARG doesn't. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Finding $0 and dealing with it in messages
On Sat, 14 Nov 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: User-wise, there _is_ something inherently unique to the messagebox, but it happens to be exactly the difference that we'd like to eliminate. Yeah, for clarification, there is nothing inherently unique in the implementation. I don't mean that it's just a user-wise thing and thus not an implementation thing. I mean that it's a user-wise thing therefore you don't have the choice to imitate it using a special implementation, if you are going to imitate it faithfully. The $-substitution isn't run on messageboxes when they get instantiated. That's the difference I'm talking about. This is also the difference that the new messagebox wouldn't imitate, so the new-style messageboxes wouldn't need weird hacks in the pd source; but if anyone wanted to reimplement old-style messageboxes, they'd need to find a way to disable $-substitution in that case. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Finding $0 and dealing with it in messages
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote: Mathieu Bouchard wrote: wouldn't need weird hacks in the pd source; but if anyone wanted to reimplement old-style messageboxes, they'd need to find a way to disable $-substitution in that case. you can get the unparsed arguments during runtime (though after creation time) just fine. this is what every save-routine does (unless somebody decides to really save 1053 instead of $0) Yes, I thought of that, but just try it, you'll see: it'll complain about missing $1, $2, etc. as you try making such messageboxes, because the $-substitution does happen anyway even if you ignore it. Even though it technically would work, no-one would want to put up with those error messages. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Fred Voisin wrote: In France we use to say plus on est de fous plus on rit (the more silly persons we are, the more fun we have) ! On dit ça chez moi aussi, mais pour passer à travers un tel projet, il faut savoir se passer de ce dicton. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Finding $0 and dealing with it in messages
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: You can already use [symbol] to get the selector of an incoming message. It doesn't work for those selectors: bang symbol list To handle these cases, you need to also have [route bang symbol list], three messageboxes that say «symbol bang» «symbol symbol» and «symbol list», and three [b] to protect those messageboxes from whatever comes out of [route]. then the else-case of [route] goes to [symbol]. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
