2011/3/20 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com:
Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer lies in court as
long as he's not under oath.
Good point.
same goes for politicians and lying in public =P
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2011/3/20 eckinator eckina...@gmail.com:
2011/3/20 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com:
Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer lies in court as
long as he's not under oath.
Good point.
same goes for politicians and lying in public =P
oops, wrong. from a certain level
Peter I hope you're reading this.
Because damn, coming from you that hurts. You're one of the people
I've always seen as sincere and genuine in a discussion. You always
stand your ground and that's admirable in its own right no matter what
your opinions are. And I trust you to not be someone who
You know, Ecki man, I love you but I'm bowing out of this conversation.
There's no reasoning with you. You seem to be completely paranoid on
this matter. You seem to be impervious to fact and logic. Oh, and by
the way, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that water boarding is
torture. I
On 3/19/2011 10:48 PM, William Robb wrote:
On 19/03/2011 3:52 PM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many
years now.
With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.
That's an utterly ignorant (if
Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also are
subjected to it in training. They know how it works. It's just that
it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.
That said, I'd gladly submit myself
Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
are
subjected to it in training. They know how it works. It's just that
it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.
the evidence suggests that
On 3/20/2011 7:37 AM, Bob W wrote:
Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
are
subjected to it in training. They know how it works. It's just that
it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.
On Mar 20, 2011, at 8:37 AM, Bob W wrote:
Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
are
subjected to it in training. They know how it works. It's just that
it's unpleasant enough to remain
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture. Beheading a
journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is torture.
Waterboarding is just damn unpleasant.
uncontestedly waterboarding is less evil. but perpetrating
On 3/20/2011 8:34 AM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquistpnstenqu...@comcast.net:
Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture. Beheading a
journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is torture. Waterboarding
is just damn unpleasant.
uncontestedly
On 20/03/2011 6:21 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.
That's an utterly ignorant (if unsurprising) statement.
So you are saying you are about as ignorant about what is going on in
your own country as what is going on
No, Bill. What I'm saying is that anyone who would say such a
plainly idiotic thing obviously hasn't got the foggiest notion of what a
Nazi is.
-- Walt
On 3/20/2011 9:15 AM, William Robb wrote:
On 20/03/2011 6:21 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's
On 20/03/2011 6:27 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
subjected to it in return.
Does that include bombing civilians by the USAF?
Just wondering.
--
William
On 3/20/2011 9:17 AM, William Robb wrote:
On 20/03/2011 6:27 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
subjected to it in return.
Does that include bombing civilians by
On 20/03/2011 7:23 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture.Beheading a journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is
torture. Waterboarding is just damn unpleasant.
No Paul, waterboarding is just a rung or two down the evil
On 20/03/2011 7:37 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
Lesser evils are sometimes necessary evils. The bombing of Dresden
springs immediately to mind.
Just don't try to hold yourself up as a paragon of civilization and
democracy after practising your lesser evils, since every lesser evil
brings
On 3/20/2011 9:26 AM, William Robb wrote:
On 20/03/2011 7:37 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
Lesser evils are sometimes necessary evils. The bombing of Dresden
springs immediately to mind.
Just don't try to hold yourself up as a paragon of civilization and
democracy after practising your
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow humans
less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who recently
awarded the tax breaks that
On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist
On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow humans less
equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those who
oppose wikileaks.
back to where I started: DONATE FOR JAPAN, Eckeleaks notwithstanding
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On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:
On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably.
On 20/03/2011 17:55, Paul Stenquist wrote:
On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow humans less
On 3/20/2011 11:41 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:
On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
I fail to see why anyone would want that,
On 2011-03-20 04:10 , Bob W wrote:
There's an enormous difference between undergoing something voluntarily for
training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where you
are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will end,
and being subjected to the same thing
On 20/03/2011 18:48, Walter Gilbert wrote:
On 3/20/2011 11:41 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:
On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:
On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
On Mar 20, 2011, at 7:17 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
No, Bill. What I'm saying is that anyone who would say such a plainly
idiotic thing obviously hasn't got the foggiest notion of what a Nazi is.
Mr. Godwin to the white courtesy phone.
--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
On Mar 20, 2011, at 1:37 PM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those
who oppose wikileaks.
back to where I started: DONATE FOR JAPAN, Eckeleaks notwithstanding
I did so today. Costco
Thank you Paul. You were a good man in my book before that, too =)
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
On Mar 20, 2011, at 1:37 PM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those
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2011/3/20 Walter Gilbert ldott...@gmail.com:
One particular FB wants to use a baseball bat.
I'll supply the bat.
the text is making that FB sound like his is a pet fruitbat named Eric.
ministry of housinge looney detector van, anyone?
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On Mar 20, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
On Mar 20, 2011, at 1:37 PM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those
who oppose wikileaks.
back to where I started: DONATE FOR
On 2011-03-18 20:28 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat
president is torturing a U.S. citizen?
Obama sucks
there, i said it
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2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely.
If you look at how he's treated in prison there will be no telling how
sane he may have been once they're done with him. He's on POI watch
and in isolated confinement. He walks
On Mar 19, 2011, at 5:48 AM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely.
If you look at how he's treated in prison there will be no telling how
sane he may have been once they're done with him. He's
On 3/19/2011 1:43 AM, steve harley wrote:
On 2011-03-18 20:28 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal
democrat president is torturing a U.S. citizen?
Obama sucks
there, i said it
Mark!
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From: Scott Loveless
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William Robb anotherdrunken...@gmail.com
wrote:
American = Wikileaks bad.
Rest of world = Wikileaks good.
And frankly, I don't think Wikileaks has hurt any innocent people.
Don't lump us all in together. What with security theater at
Like I said, just because Assange and Wikileaks are trying to stick it to the
U.S. Government doesn't make them good guys.
John,
You're right. I think he's a form of pond scum. And not too tough of
a target to hit either!
The US Government gets slightly embarrased. The people mentioned face
On 3/19/2011 8:22 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
From: Scott Loveless
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William Robb
anotherdrunken...@gmail.com wrote:
American = Wikileaks bad.
Rest of world = Wikileaks good.
And frankly, I don't think Wikileaks has hurt any innocent people.
Don't lump us all
On 19/03/2011 5:06 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
And of course the information his lawyer provides is completely accurate:-))) !
Paul, your military and CIA are pretty well known to use torture of
prisoners.
IIRC, it was George Bush who had waterboarding redefined into the
equivalent of
On 19/03/2011 6:26 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
Obama sucks
Actually, the American government sucks, it doesn't matter which puppet
is at the helm.
--
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On 3/19/2011 5:48 AM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/19 Paul Stenquistpnstenqu...@comcast.net:
From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely.
If you look at how he's treated in prison there will be no telling how
sane he may have been once they're done with him. He's on POI watch
2011/3/19 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com:
I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of them
at this point. Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an advocate,
and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in court. There's
even less
On 3/19/2011 3:09 PM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/19 P. J. Allingwebstertwenty...@gmail.com:
I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of them
at this point. Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an advocate,
and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's
2011/3/19 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com:
Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake. There's no
percentage in it. The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.
Rational beings don't risk that. Manning is a known prisoner. Even the
most repressive
On 3/19/2011 4:14 PM, eckinator wrote:
liberal seems to be the new communist. mccarthy rears his ugly head if
you ask me...
If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many
years now.
-- Walt
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2011/3/19 Walter Gilbert ldott...@gmail.com:
liberal seems to be the new communist. mccarthy rears his ugly head if
you ask me...
If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many years
now.
haha yes it is - to each their own flavour of fascism I guess =/
--
PDML
On 2011-03-19 13:20 , P. J. Alling wrote:
Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake. There's no
percentage in it. The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.
apparently, the US government has figured out its percentages on torture
outcomes and decided it's worth doing
On 3/19/2011 6:48 PM, steve harley wrote:
On 2011-03-19 13:20 , P. J. Alling wrote:
Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake. There's no
percentage in it. The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.
apparently, the US government has figured out its percentages on
2011/3/20 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com:
It's not the government that's rational, but the humans who run it and do
it's bidding that are. If you think that there are no consequences improper
behavior should, just ask the General in charge of Abu Ghraib, she no longer
has a career
On 2011-03-19 18:04 , P. J. Alling wrote:
If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and
heads will roll.
his mistreatment is out already -- it's been covered and editorialized
about in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Daily Beast, etc.; and
because it's been excused (and many
On 3/19/2011 8:25 PM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/20 P. J. Allingwebstertwenty...@gmail.com:
It's not the government that's rational, but the humans who run it and do
it's bidding that are. If you think that there are no consequences improper
behavior should, just ask the General in charge of Abu
On 3/19/2011 8:26 PM, steve harley wrote:
On 2011-03-19 18:04 , P. J. Alling wrote:
If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and
heads will roll.
his mistreatment is out already -- it's been covered and
editorialized about in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Daily
Beast, etc.;
From: P. J. Alling
I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of
them at this point. Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an
advocate, and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in
court.
Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer
On 3/19/2011 10:31 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
From: P. J. Alling
I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of
them at this point. Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an
advocate, and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in
court.
Under the
On 19/03/2011 1:20 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.
Rational beings don't risk that.
We ~are~ talking about the US government and the US military Peter.
Rational doesn't really enter into it.
--
William Robb
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On 19/03/2011 3:52 PM, Walter Gilbert wrote:
If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many
years now.
With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.
--
William Robb
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That sounds good if you think that people are always rational actors.
But they aren't. They are imperfect, unreasonable, creatures driven
by emotion, even when there are very detailed procedures to follow.
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 3:20 PM, P. J. Alling
webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote:
On
On 19/03/2011 7:26 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
Oh, and by the
way, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that water boarding is
torture. I have friends who have undergone training to withstand
interrogation, and being water boarded is part of the training. It's a
thoroughly unpleasant experience,
You are doing the same thing by stating that the government can't
possibly be doing anything wrong.
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 9:41 PM, P. J. Alling
webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote:
You know, I can't refute your argument, it's just so air tight. I bow to
your superior intellect. The fact that
On 19/03/2011 7:41 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
If you want to believe that the US Government sanctions
torture for tortures sake I can't stop you.
Don't obfuscate. Torture for any reason is still torture.
--
William Robb
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To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much. It's always
embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
little information can explain so much.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:34 AM, Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William
On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much. It's always
embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
little information can explain so much.
for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks will
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:39:02PM -0600, steve harley wrote:
On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much. It's always
embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
little information can explain so much.
for
On 2011-03-18 19:09 , John Francis wrote:
While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.
sometimes it takes a weasel to ferret one out
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PDML Pentax-Discuss
I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- in
government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond in
confidence at times. Strategies to defend against terrorism have to remain
Jail is not a deterrent for those that are committed to a cause.
People are willing to die for causes that they believe in.
The founding fathers of the US literally risked their necks for the
cause that they believed in.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net:
I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
I was a conservative voter much of my adult life. I stopped when I
realized how much more corrupt the moderate right is than the moderate
left and how much more they are willing
On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:54 PM, David Parsons wrote:
Jail is not a deterrent for those that are committed to a cause.
People are willing to die for causes that they believe in.
I doubt that the soldier who supplied the data was seriously committed to any
cause. From what I've read, seriously
On 2011-03-18 19:39, steve harley wrote:
for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks will
improve us a bit
Wikileaks is a necessary evil. It could be a lot less necessary if our
government weren't convinced they're better, smarter people than the
ones that elected
Most definitely he will used as an example, but it's hard to say what
his motivations are when he's been in holding since the event. And
IMO, once they decide to try him for treason, he's as good as dead
anyway.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Paul Stenquist
pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
On
On 2011-03-18 21:44, Paul Stenquist wrote:
Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings,
and -- yes -- in government as well. Government officials
have to be able to correspond in confidence at times.
You are right. But each of us individually has to have the same ability
to
On 2011-03-18 21:54, David Parsons wrote:
The founding fathers of the US literally risked their necks for the
cause that they believed in.
And the part that a lot of people miss is that, homicide bombers do what
they do, from their viewpoint, for exactly the same reason that the US's
On 2011-03-18 19:44 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- in
government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond in
confidence at times.
On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:20 PM, steve harley wrote:
On 2011-03-18 19:44 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes --
in government as well. Government officials have to
Not personally, but with his tacit or explicit support, yes.
Depriving a prisoner of clothing is not standard procedure in in any
US jail or prison.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Paul Stenquist
pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a
Some of what Wikileaks is doing is open to question on ethical
grounds. On the other hand, many of the people screaming about it
are, arguably, war criminals. What Bradley Manning is alleged to have
done is ethically and legally questionable. What is being done to him
is nauseatingly abusive.
On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Tim Bray wrote:
Some of what Wikileaks is doing is open to question on ethical
grounds. On the other hand, many of the people screaming about it
are, arguably, war criminals.
I know of no convicted or indicted war criminals who have commented on
wikileaks. The
On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:39 PM, David Parsons wrote:
Not personally, but with his tacit or explicit support, yes.
Depriving a prisoner of clothing is not standard procedure in in any
US jail or prison.
Providing alternate clothing for prisoners who might be a suicide risk is
standard
On 18/03/2011 8:28 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro
sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk.
Have you considered that they might just be saying that as an excuse to
humiliate him?
He's Obama's
Huh???
On Mar 17, 2011, at 5:04 AM, eckinator wrote:
PayPal Germany adds 50% to all donations for Japan. money goes to the
German Red Cross. probably there are similar offers for other
countries. time to punish them for messing with Wikileaks!
Cheers
Ecke
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what I was really saying is, donate for Japan. and if you can get the
PayPal offer in your country, why not make three bucks out of two. of
course I was also saying I don't like PayPal for a plethora of
reasons, Wikileaks being only the latest one or rather one before
latest... just had fun with
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
Huh???
Paypal were one of a number of companies which withdrew services to
WikiLeaks, for debatable reasons. Quite a few people, including me,
see this as despicable behaviour and deserving of retribution. Others
see
Well aware of all that. Just found it bizarre that giving to Japan in this way
was equated with punishing Paypal, which is obviously being generous in this
case. In regard to the Wikileaks termination, I certainly wouldn't trust
Assange in any kind of financial deal. But to each their own
Paul
From: Paul Stenquist
Well aware of all that. Just found it bizarre that giving to Japan in
this way was equated with punishing Paypal, which is obviously being
generous in this case. In regard to the Wikileaks termination, I
certainly wouldn't trust Assange in any kind of financial deal. But
to
2011/3/17 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com:
Just because they stuck a knife in the back of U.S. Government policy on
Iraq and Afghanistan don't make Wikileaks good guys. Looking at their
overall effect, they harmed a lot more innocents than they exposed any bad
guys.
In that case Wikileaks
On 17/03/2011 1:13 PM, eckinator wrote:
2011/3/17 John Sessomsjsessoms...@nc.rr.com:
Just because they stuck a knife in the back of U.S. Government policy on
Iraq and Afghanistan don't make Wikileaks good guys. Looking at their
overall effect, they harmed a lot more innocents than they exposed
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William Robb
anotherdrunken...@gmail.com wrote:
American = Wikileaks bad.
Rest of world = Wikileaks good.
And frankly, I don't think Wikileaks has hurt any innocent people.
Don't lump us all in together. What with security theater at
airports, warrantless wire
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