[PEIRCE-L] Re: Cognonto

2017-11-23 Thread John F Sowa
Dan, Terry, and list, Dan http://www.dataversity.net/cognonto-takes-knowledge-based-artificial-intelligence/ Interesting claim for application of Peircean ideas in the tech industry. Thanks for the pointer. I'm happy to see more interest and applications of Peirce's logic and ontology. Terry

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.13

2017-11-22 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry, If Peirce had intended any further meaning, he would have mentioned it explicitly. Really? Yes, really. Peirce wrote about logic and EGs in multiple articles, lectures, and MSS. He didn't say everything in every article. But if you can't find something in at least one source, it's

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.13

2017-11-22 Thread John F Sowa
On 11/22/2017 10:50 AM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: This is common in the formal logic of the chemical sciences. Peirce studied logic long before he studied chemistry. He picked up his brother's copy of Whatley's logic when he was 12. Boole's two books (1847, 1854) were published when he was 8 an

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.13

2017-11-21 Thread John F Sowa
On 11/21/2017 4:08 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: CSP’s strange insistence on the logical perplexity of repeating words in sentences (or on sheets of assertion) has long puzzled me. Are you referring to the following passage? From 2.13: it seems reasonable that any decidedly marked point of the

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.13

2017-11-21 Thread John F Sowa
On 11/21/2017 11:48 AM, Mary Libertin wrote: In para 4 states that the first use should be in bold to designate it as the first. This is similar in some ways to the type/token distinction... Peirce said that selectives serve the same role as pronouns or a kind of artificial proper name, such as

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Logical Implication

2017-11-18 Thread John F Sowa
On 11/17/2017 5:05 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: I think, the three kinds of implication or hierarchy are: Composition, power, and classification: Composition: "a contains b" or "b is a part of a", "if we have a, then we have b too". Power: "a can have an effect on b", "if a changes, then b is not

Re: Aw: RE: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.11

2017-11-14 Thread John F Sowa
On 11/14/2017 11:49 AM, Helmut Raulien wrote: what I wrote about the Latin "condicio" and "conditio" was wrong. As far as I have got it from looking it up, both means both (state and prerequisite), and some other things too such as seasoning I checked a large Latin-English dictionary (over 200

Re: Fw: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.6

2017-11-03 Thread John F Sowa
On 11/3/2017 10:38 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: For you, formal logic is a branch of mathematics; for us, though... It's always a bad idea to make claims about anyone else's thoughts, contemporary or historical. It's best to quote their exact words. As for me, I completely agree with Peirce:

Re: Fw: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.6

2017-11-02 Thread John F Sowa
Gary F, There are two separate issues here: (1) the isomorphism between Peirce's 1911 system and his earlier presentations; and (2) the relationship between Peirce's endoporeutic and GTS. About #1, the issues are clear for first-order logic (Alpha + Beta): every graph drawn according to the 1903

Re: Fw: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.6

2017-11-02 Thread John F Sowa
Gary F, Jeff BD, Kirsti, Jon A, I didn't respond to your previous notes because I was tied up with other work. Among other things, I presented some slides for a telecon sponsored by Ontolog Forum. Slide 23 (cspsci.gif attached) includes my diagram of Peirce's classification of the sciences and

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 2.6

2017-10-30 Thread John F Sowa
Gary F, The issues are far deeper than notation or computer processing. 1903 was a critical year in which Peirce began his correspondence with Lady Welby. That led him to address fundamental semiotic issues. I’ll have to confess at this point that I have no interest in learning EGs for the sak

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Learning in the cycle of observation -> reasoning -> action

2017-10-24 Thread John F Sowa
Gary R and Jon A, Gary as Peirce argues in the Neglected Argument and elsewhere is, first, hypothesis formation (abduction), deduction of the implications of the hypothesis for the purpose of devising a test of it, and, once a test has been devised, finally the inductive experimental testing is

[PEIRCE-L] Learning in the cycle of observation -> reasoning -> action

2017-10-24 Thread John F Sowa
I received an offline message that asked where learning occurs in the cycle of observation, induction, abduction, revision, deduction, and action. Answer: at every turn of every cycle. John Forwarded Message But your cycle implies that one person just keeps going around it,

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Existence and Reality (was Lowell Lecture 1: overview)

2017-10-21 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/21/2017 12:49 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: So my chapter leans more to the biological/biosemiotic side; but I think the essential ideas are the same. I agree. I subscribed to an email list on Rosen's ideas for a while, but I stopped because it was generating too much email. I am very s

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Existence and Reality (was Lowell Lecture 1: overview)

2017-10-21 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/20/2017 5:45 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: ​But ​John S found Peirce's tripartite diagram of the "main stages" of an inquiry inadequate and offered his own well-known cyclical diagram as a corrective. Peirce's three methods of reasoning are fundamental. I was not correcting them. I was just

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Existence and Reality (was Lowell Lecture 1: overview)

2017-10-20 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/20/2017 3:26 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: My feeling is that CSP’s remarks are now out of date in the sense that many forms of mathematical reasoning are used in different structural forms - sets, groups, rings, vector spaces etc. with different modes of reasoning, even about addition and

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Existence and Reality (was Lowell Lecture 1: overview)

2017-10-20 Thread John F Sowa
Since my name was mentioned in the list, I'll say why I believe that methods of reasoning -- induction, abduction, and deduction -- are kinds of arguments (third in the triad predicate-proposition-argument). And that all arguments are segments in a never-ending cycle of inquiry. Therefore, all of

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Existence and Reality (was Lowell Lecture 1: overview)

2017-10-19 Thread John F Sowa
Kirsti and Gary R, Resorting to Quine cannot be taken as any starter. My note was based on three lines by Peirce, which Quine summarized in just one line. If a reference to Quine is offensive, I'll restate the issues in terms of passages by Peirce that Gary cited: 1901 | Individual | CP 3.61

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Existence and Reality (was Lowell Lecture 1: overview)

2017-10-19 Thread John F Sowa
Jon AS, Edwina, Jerry LRC, Gary R, Mike, and Ben, Jon By Peirce's definitions--at least, the ones that he carefully employed late in his life--the verb "exist" may only be used to talk about actual things that "react with the other like things in the environment" (CP 6.495). Yes. That's why I

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1: overview

2017-10-18 Thread John F Sowa
Kirsti and Gary R, If a debate doesn't converge, the traditional solution (since Socrates) is to find which words are causing confusion and either (a) avoid using them or (b) define them more precisely. Kirsti, Possibilities may be real, but they do not exist until they become actual. In tha

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1: overview

2017-10-17 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/17/2017 8:31 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: I would rather see as Mark Type Token, using Type as mediation... I agree that the type is the mediator, but changing the order would conflict with the names Firstness, Secondness, and Thirdness. It's better to draw them in a triangle with Type at

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1: overview

2017-10-16 Thread John F Sowa
This thread is getting hung up on words. I recommend Peirce's advice to look for the "purposive actions" that would follow from any options that anyone is debating. Let's consider the two words 'real' and 'existence'. Quine is not one of my favorite philosophers, but I like his dictum: "To be

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1: overview

2017-10-16 Thread John F Sowa
Gary and Dan, Dan This is certainly a wonderful service to all. I agree. And if you have all of Lowell 2 available, please post it also. When I get started reading something, I don't want to stop. But the discussions can focus on the posted parts. John - PEIRCE

Re: LEM Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.8

2017-10-15 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry, I was making a narrow, noncontroversial point. LEM plays a central role in triad, the logic of logic, the logic of mathematics and the logic of science. LEM is an assumption in many versions of logic. If you prefer a 3-valued logic, feel free to adopt it. It's your choice. [JFS] Y

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.10

2017-10-14 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/14/2017 8:46 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: Peirce’s study of logic seems to be a /quest for the elemental./ It grows out of his phenomenology, which aims to identify the... It's unclear what "It" refers to. His study of logic certainly does not grow out of phenomenology. Therefore, "It"

Re: LEM Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.8

2017-10-12 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry and Kirstima, Jerry the issue of the "Law of the Excluded Middle” is a red herring to me. Kirstima LEM presents one of the three basic misassumptions in modern logic. LEM is a convention used in a technical (mathematical) sense. It's important to keep the conventions distinct from ord

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.9

2017-10-11 Thread John F Sowa
Charles, Gary F, and Edwina, Charles On what the sheet of assertions represents in EGs, I thought Peirce said it represents TRUTH... Yes, but that is because a blank sheet in EGs is a graph that says nothing false. When I teach EG logic, I say "Silence is golden". Charles if we frame a theo

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.9

2017-10-11 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/11/2017 7:50 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: [Peirce] also says that “the logician assumes that the meaning of language is well known between himself and the person to whom he is imparting his doctrine” — an assumption that is quite unrealistic in ordinary dialogue, and in fact is a common so

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.8

2017-10-10 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry LRC, Jon AS, List, Jerry [JFS] Since a contradiction is always false, a contradiction implies everything. Everything? While this assertion is widely repeated in the literature, I think it is highly problematic. It's widely repeated because it is a fundamental assumption of most versio

Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: Lowell Lecture 1.8

2017-10-10 Thread John F Sowa
Gary F and Jon, Your comments about Peirce's views of negation in 1903 and 1906 are significant for later changes in this thinking about 3-valued logic and about existential graphs. Gary this definition of "not" as problematic... plays the key role in the evolution from the "scroll" (read as a

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.8

2017-10-09 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/9/2017 2:28 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: I never would have guessed that “what we mean by “/not/” is “every proposition would be true if it were.” That comment can only be true if there is no middle option -- i.e., a stone is either hard or not hard AND there is no possibility of being n

[PEIRCE-L] Recent article by Susan Haack

2017-10-04 Thread John F Sowa
Susan Haack recently published an article with the title "The real question: Can philosophy be saved?": https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319990958_The_Real_Question_Can_Philosophy_be_Saved_2017 From the first page: Yes, something is rotten in the state of philosophy. I'd go so far as to

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.4

2017-10-03 Thread John F Sowa
Dan, Edwina, Gene, Dan the Pirahãs... are initially welcoming. But you must make yourself useful to the community. They do not have the luxury of accommodating people who cannot carry their own weight. I enjoyed your writings about the Pirahãs, and I certainly defer to your expertise on anthro

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.4

2017-10-01 Thread John F Sowa
On 10/1/2017 6:59 AM, Stephen C. Rose wrote: The number of values to which all should subscribe is very few -- I make them to be tolerance, helpfulness, and democracy in the widest sense. I agree that those values are both important and universal. But they are complex goals. According to Peirc

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.4

2017-09-30 Thread John F Sowa
On 9/30/2017 10:54 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: Firstness and Secondness [Feeling and Reaction] exist within the individual and, if the process of forming conclusions is confined to these two modes - it is indeed a relativist opinion. It is only within the action of Thirdness that the 'controlle

Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Collapsing the wave function

2017-09-28 Thread John F Sowa
On 9/28/2017 7:18 AM, Stephen Jarosek wrote: Multiverse theory is a symptom of intellectual desperation… a descent into debating the number of angels on the head of a pin. Both of those lines are contrary to anything Peirce would have said or approved. Peirce's First Rule of Reason: "Do not b

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.3

2017-09-28 Thread John F Sowa
Jon AS and Jeff BD, [JFS] I would say that every diagram is an image ... [JAS] Peirce explicitly said otherwise in CP 2.277, dividing hypoicons into images, diagrams, and metaphors. But 'hypoicon' is a very technical term. JBD Peirce seems to use the term "image" in at least two senses...

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell Lecture 1.3

2017-09-28 Thread John F Sowa
On 9/27/2017 5:07 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt wrote: A diagram, in Peirce's terminology, is not an image; it is an icon, with indexical and symbolic elements, that embodies the significant relations among the parts of its object. An algebraic equation is a diagram just as much as a geometric figure.

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Lowell lecture 1.1

2017-09-25 Thread John F Sowa
On 9/25/2017 11:41 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: I consider that the initial quotation was simply Peirce's general Introduction to his anticipated analysis, explaining that he was going to explore fallacious logic, using a key example. I agree. Muhammad Ali did a lot of bragging. But he followe

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's classifications of the sciences

2017-09-03 Thread John F Sowa
On 9/2/2017 8:31 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: [Metaphysics is] "First in dignity, last in the order of learning": What is meant by "learning"? Is it the learning of the researcher, or the learning of the pupil, who is being taught by the researcher the results of the research? The word Aquinas use

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's classifications of the sciences

2017-09-02 Thread John F Sowa
On 9/1/2017 6:37 PM, Tommi Vehkavaara wrote: I do not see how those who take ontology as the first philosophy could be convinced with this diagram, because in it, metaphysics is presented rather as the last philosophy, instead. I googled "prima philosophia" and found an interesting discussion

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's classifications of the sciences

2017-08-31 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/31/2017 6:41 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: FZ: About Sowa’s classification of the sciences, compared to Peirce’s, I don’t see something new. I strongly agree. I was *not* attempting anything new. And I was most definitely *not* attempting to produce a classification of the sciences. I did no

[PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's classifications of the sciences

2017-08-30 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry LRC, Tommi, Gary F, and Kirsti, Jerry Thanks for collecting and posting the references to Simons works. His views have changed hues since his book! Yes. I'd say that the theoretical analysis in his 1987 book is still valid, but Simons got hit with a large dose of reality in his dozen ye

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's classification of the sciences

2017-08-28 Thread John F Sowa
Reality Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:51:22 -0400 From: John F Sowa To: ontolog-fo...@googlegroups.com Dear Matthew, Your note led me to search for publications by Peter Simons that can be freely downloaded. And I came across a rich vein of texts that are critical for the proposed ISO standard. &g

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's classification of the sciences

2017-08-26 Thread John F Sowa
Stephen CR, Gary F, and Kirsti, I also received some offline comments, which I'll start with. And I'm including a slightly revised copy of CSPsciences.jpg. Anon Might it be useful to label/annotate the relationships and have a legend which describes the motivations behind the divisions via the

[PEIRCE-L] Peirce's classification of the sciences

2017-08-25 Thread John F Sowa
I drew the attached CSPsciences.jpg to illustrate Peirce's "Outline Classification of the Sciences", CP 1.180-202 or EP 2.258-262 (1903). The dotted lines show dependencies: the category at the lower end of each line depends on the one at the higher end. Only two sciences have no dependencies on

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-25 Thread John F Sowa
Stefan B, Stephen CR, Bev, and Kirsti, I drew a new diagram based on Peirce's classification of the sciences. I'll send it to the list in a separate thread. Stephan I believe you are seeing this from a very different viewpoint. I am interested in the sociology and history of knowledge. So am

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-17 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/16/2017 6:29 PM, sb wrote: in my opinion the diagram should contain two cycles. A "habit" cycle and a "something unexpected happens" cycle. The diagram should also address the fact, that the stock of knowledge changes with every turn on the "something unexpected happens" cycle. All those

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-16 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry, JFS In his late writings on the logic of pragmatism, he emphasized the multiple cycles of observations, induction, abduction, deduction, testing (actions) and repeat. JLRC> Do you have specific citations? I wish that Peirce had used the word 'cycle' and had drawn a diagram similar to t

Re: Aw: Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-16 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/12/2017 4:23 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: I have problems with the term "final" or "end" anyway. I guess that the pragmatic maxim is only a proposal how to make our ideas clearer, in order to be able to talk more reasonably, but not absolutely end-clear. That 1878 article about the gates of

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-12 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/12/2017 10:43 AM, Stephen C. Rose wrote: Isn't the point of considering anything the end? And isn't the end a practical actionable something (expression, act) that contains the initial sign and the index. Peirce said that the interpretant of any sign is always another sign. He also said th

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-12 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/11/2017 5:09 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: A system, I think, is defined by the part of its structure, that does not change. The system exists as long as this part of structure (set of relations) exists. Which part of the structure is used to define the system, can be arbitrary choice, but usu

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-10 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/10/2017 3:23 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: Is Tarski’s approach to the formal logics of metalanguages essential to give coherence to communication with the broad array of modern synthetic symbol systems? By itself, Tarski's version of model theory and metalanguage is not sufficient. But s

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Phaneroscopy & Phenomenology

2017-08-09 Thread John F Sowa
Gene, Gary F, and Clark, Gene let's remember the influential book by Ogden and Richards, The Meaning of Meaning (1923), which brought discussion of Peirce to a wider audience over many following decades. It was Lady Welby's influence on Ogden that brought Peirce into the discussion, using quot

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Phaneroscopy & Phenomenology

2017-08-09 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/9/2017 9:18 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: Peirce certainly devoted a lot of study to the meanings of English words, especially in the period /before/ he developed his detailed classification of signs, but of course his work was not /limited/ to those studies. Yes. I would never "block t

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Phaneroscopy & Phenomenology

2017-08-08 Thread John F Sowa
Kirsti, Gary F., and Clark, Kirsti Meanings are contextual. - Do we agree in that? Yes. Peirce said many times in many ways that any meaningful concept must show its passport at the gates of perception and action. That is a major part of its context. Kirsti Letters to lady Welby need to be

Re: CP2.230 (1910) ] Systems of Meaning was Re: [PEIRCE-L] 123, abc

2017-08-07 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/7/2017 12:07 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: How does the modern notion of a system compare with CSP’s late 19th / early 20 th Century rhetoric? Very directly. Peirce had provided the logical foundation for describing all of them. He didn't have the modern experience with the latest compute

Re: Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Phaneroscopy & Phenomenology

2017-08-05 Thread John F Sowa
On 8/4/2017 5:23 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: Something is either a gas, a liquid, or a solid, and you cannot tell which one, by just looking at the chemical composition. That is, because additional information is needed Actually, there are many "strange states" of matter, for which that three-way

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Phaneroscopy & Phenomenology

2017-07-28 Thread John F Sowa
On 7/28/2017 5:07 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: when [Peirce] uses “intentional” in an ordinary context, it means pretty much the same as it typically does in ordinary usage today. For instance, CP 1.334 (c. 1905)... Yes. And note the definition of 'intentional' that he wrote for the _Century

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Phaneroscopy & Phenomenology

2017-07-28 Thread John F Sowa
On 7/28/2017 12:39 PM, Clark Goble wrote: I’ve long noted that while Peirce’s phenomenology bears little resemblance to Husserl’s, Heidegger’s seems quite different. Famously it is both on the nature of consciousness and intentionality that Heidegger breaks from Husserl. Heidegger too turned to

Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Is relativity theory holding back progress in science?

2017-07-20 Thread John F Sowa
I have been following new developments in physics for many years, and I am also interested in Peirce's views on the subject. But I agree with the summary below by Kashyap V Vasavada. I would prefer not to have these emails stuff my folder for Peirce-L. Unless other Peirce-L subscribers want to

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's definitions in the Century Dictionary

2017-07-13 Thread John F Sowa
On 7/12/2017 5:19 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: I assume that each JPG you would want to download is an image of a single page of the CD. Yes. I'm primarily interested in Peirce's definitions, and I've given up hope for that "forthcoming" volume. I've found that going to the word list to find

[PEIRCE-L] Peirce's definitions in the Century Dictionary

2017-07-12 Thread John F Sowa
I have downloaded some of Peirce's definitions, and I wondered whether there is any site that contains more or all of them. Following are the few that I downloaded as .jpg files: http://www.jfsowa.com/peirce/defs For the short ones, I've extracted part of the .jpg page. But the longer ones (more

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Stjernfelt Revisited • Propositions and Information

2017-06-29 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/29/2017 2:34 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: Jon--The Peirce list is a forum, not a kind of personal 'storage' site. Gary R I second that motion. My email handler (Thunderbird) has a place to store "drafts". Other email handlers I've used or seen also have such storage sites. I suggest them as

[PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's own definition of 'information'

2017-06-29 Thread John F Sowa
Jon A, Charles Pyle, and John C., The main point I was trying to make is that the term 'proposition' is basic, and that information is knowledge (propositional content) that is being communicated or derived in some way. Jon there is simply no reason why we should not take seriously the lectures

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's own definition of 'information'

2017-06-29 Thread John F Sowa
Jon A, Jeff D, and Gary F, JA Why don't we put this on hold for later discussion? I was about to send the following when your note appeared in my inbox. It should be sufficient for the word 'information', but we can discuss other issues later. JD I take the following passage to indicate tha

[PEIRCE-L] Re: { Information = Comprehension × Extension }

2017-06-28 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/28/2017 1:44 PM, Jon Awbrey wrote: The short shrift for now is that neither Peirce nor I is talking about propositions in the sense of dicisigns or dicent symbols at this juncture but rather the simpler sorts of propositions that fall under the heading of the Propositional Calculus in curren

[PEIRCE-L] Re: { Information = Comprehension × Extension }

2017-06-28 Thread John F Sowa
Jon, That's an important topic to explore: JA we can take up the issue of propositions in more detail as it arises in the relevant context. For a good analysis of the issues, I recommend the following book: Stjernfelt, Frederik (2014) Natural Propositions: The Actuality of Peirce’s Doctrine o

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: { Information = Comprehension × Extension }

2017-06-27 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/27/2017 6:08 PM, Jerry Rhee wrote: Thanks for making what might otherwise appear confusing and complex, clear and simple. I hope I didn't make it too clear and simple -- because I agree with Peirce (and with modern lexicographers) that word senses are definitely not clear and simple. I wa

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: { Information = Comprehension × Extension }

2017-06-27 Thread John F Sowa
Jon, The subject line raises some complex issues: Information = Comprehension × Extension A more fundamental term is 'proposition', which is informally defined as the "meaning" of a sentence. That meaning is usually analyzed as comprehension (AKA intension) and extension. Given that definit

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: C.S. Peirce • Logic As Semiotic

2017-06-27 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/25/2017 5:28 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: interesting outline - and I'd need to spend a lot more time on it. I realize that 112 slides are a bit much to digest. So I deleted 93 slides to create a short version (title page + 18 slides): http://www.jfsowa.com/talks/vrshort.pdf In the short v

[PEIRCE-L] Re: C.S. Peirce • Logic As Semiotic

2017-06-25 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/25/2017 6:24 AM, Jon Awbrey wrote: I am also concerned with maintaining avenues of communication and cross-fertilization among various communities of inquiry. We have to observe the specialized ways that terms are used in particular communities but we cannot capitulate to uses so specialized

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: C.S. Peirce • Logic As Semiotic

2017-06-24 Thread John F Sowa
Jon A, I was trying to emphasize the distinction between syntax and semantics. Literally, 'formal' means "according to form"; 'syntactic' means "according to the arrangement (taxis)". For diagrams (in one or more dimensions) the form is the arrangement. Therefore, the word 'formal', when applie

Re: [PEIRCE-L] An apology

2017-06-20 Thread John F Sowa
Dear Kirsti, End of this dicussion in my part. Nothing bothers me. But I do have one very general comment: In any discussion of any subject of any kind, avoid using the word 'you'. It always diverts attention away from the subject and toward the person being addressed. John

Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: AI

2017-06-20 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/20/2017 11:58 AM, kirst...@saunalahti.fi wrote: Are you taking the side: "machines are innocent, blame individual persons' ??? No, that's not what I said or implied. You said that you agreed with Gene, and I was also agreeing with Gene: On 6/15/2017 1:10 PM, Eugene Halton wrote: What "

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-19 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/19/2017 12:38 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: I’ve just read your article on “Peirce's contributions to the 21st century” (http://www.jfsowa.com/pubs/csp21st.pdf)... I couldn’t explain what’s wrong with it as clearly as you have. (especially in your section on “logical negativism.” I got th

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-18 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/18/2017 3:50 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: few workers in these fields today would consider semiotics, or logic, or philosophy, to be “empirical sciences” according to current usage, although they are all “positive sciences” for Peirce, so we can’t really substitute the one for the other i

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-18 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/17/2017 5:45 PM, Jeffrey Brian Downard wrote: The term "positive" is the word that Peirce uses to describe the character of the philosophical sciences--as well as the special sciences. They are positive (and not merely ideal) in that they study real things and not idealizations. In the 19t

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-17 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/17/2017 3:22 PM, Jeffrey Brian Downard wrote: I think we are general agreement. I think we mostly agree. But I don't see any need for the term 'positive science'. I would say 'empirical' instead of 'positive' in the sentence "Every positive science must describe and make testable predict

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-17 Thread John F Sowa
Jon A, Gary F, and Jeff BD, Jon The most important difference between linguistics and logic is that linguistics is descriptive while logic is normative. No. Grammars and dictionaries have traditionally been considered normative. Note l'Académie française. Modern linguists emphasize the desc

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Rheme and Reason. A comment on CP 3.440

2017-06-16 Thread John F Sowa
Kirsti and Jon A. Kirsti Logic is not linguistics, and should not be replaced, not even partly, by linguistics. Even though there are a host of philosophers, quite famous ones even, which have made that mistake. Jon ditto amen qed si. Logic and linguistics are two branches of semiotic. Th

Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: AI

2017-06-15 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/15/2017 1:10 PM, Eugene Halton wrote: What "would motivate [AI systems] to kill us?" Rationally-mechanically infantilized us. Yes. That's similar to what I said: "The most likely reason why any AI system would have the goal to kill anything is that some human(s) programmed [or somehow in

Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: AI

2017-06-15 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/15/2017 9:58 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: To me, an intelligent system must have an internal guidance system semiotically coupled with its external world, and must have some degree of autonomy in its interactions with other systems. That definition is compatible with Peirce's comment tha

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-13 Thread John F Sowa
Gary F, Jerry LRC, and Jerry R, GF Computability is not the core issue, when you define logic pragmatically as “the science of the laws of the stable establishment of beliefs” (CP 3.429). When you use the term "pragmatically", the issues of how that stable establishment can be achieved in a fi

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-13 Thread John F Sowa
L] Rheme and Reason Date: 6/12/2017 3:00 PM From: John F Sowa ... [Although Peirce was careful to distinguish syntax and semantics, he used the single word 'illation' (inference) without explicitly stating which aspects were syntactic and which were semantic (or truth preserving).] Toda

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Rheme and Reason. A comment on CP 3.440

2017-06-13 Thread John F Sowa
Jon and Jerry, To specify a system of formal logic, there are many equivalent options for choosing the notation, the operators, the definitions, the axioms, and the rules of inference. JA One could hardly dispute the importance of implication relations like A ⇒ B. The set-theoretic analogues a

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Rheme and Reason. A comment on CP 3.440

2017-06-12 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/12/2017 11:21 AM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: Is computation power relevant to semiotics? If so, what are the forms of the propositions that transform illations to relations? As Peirce said, everything is relevant to semiotic. For starters, read his 1887 article on "Logical machines": http:

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Rheme and Reason. A comment on CP 3.440

2017-06-12 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/11/2017 10:32 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: Peirce says in CP 3.429 that “Logic may be defined as the science of the laws of the stable establishment of beliefs.”I’ll quote a bit more of the article below, but I’d recommend reading the whole of it in CP 3, if you have access to it. I str

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: [biosemiotics:9235] Rupert Sheldrake TED Talk

2017-06-12 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/12/2017 7:33 AM, kirst...@saunalahti.fi wrote: It may well be that it is LOGICALLY impossible to prove. That may be true. That may be like the existence of God. There are no proofs that God exists. There are no proofs that God does not exist. In fact, there are no two people -- believer

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Rheme and Reason

2017-06-12 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/11/2017 5:08 PM, Jon Awbrey wrote: An icon is an icon when it's interpreted as an icon. An index is an index when it's interpreted as an index. The same goes for term, sentence, argument by any name. The first two sentences are true. But the third is false. In natural languages and artif

Fwd: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Rheme and Reason

2017-06-11 Thread John F Sowa
IRCE-L] Rheme and Reason Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:06:00 -0400 From: John F Sowa Jon and Gary F, These issues are fundamental logical principles. They are semantic issues that are independent of any syntactic notations. JA The just-so-story that relative terms got their meanings by blanking o

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: [biosemiotics:9235] Rupert Sheldrake TED Talk

2017-06-11 Thread John F Sowa
Kirstina, I'm sympathetic to the possibility of paranormal phenomena. In fact, I know of some unexplained examples. But the only thing we can say is "They're weird, and we don't know how or why they happened." Sheldrake has not been searching evidence for 'parapsychology' as such, as a somewh

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Rheme and Reason

2017-06-10 Thread John F Sowa
Jon and Gary F, These issues are fundamental logical principles. They are semantic issues that are independent of any syntactic notations. JA The just-so-story that relative terms got their meanings by blanking out pieces of meaningful clauses or phrases... runs into cul-de-sacs when taken too

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Jay Zeman's existentialgraphs.com

2017-06-08 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/8/2017 11:09 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: But Peirce wrote his later (1909) version in a letter, not a well-edited, peer-reviewed publication. It's not a "full scale revision", but it's one of the best available examples of how his views evolved after 1906. */[GF: ] It’s at least an ex

RE: [PEIRCE-L] Re: [biosemiotics:9235] Rupert Sheldrake TED Talk

2017-06-06 Thread John F Sowa
Jerry, Kirsti, Gary R, Helmut, list, I didn't respond to some earlier points in this thread because I was tied up with other things. But I looked into Sheldrake's writings and the earlier writings on morphogenesis by Conrad Waddington, a pioneer in genetics, epigenetics, and morphogenesis. For

Re: [PEIRCE-L] [biosemiotics:9235] Rupert Sheldrake TED Talk

2017-06-01 Thread John F Sowa
On 6/1/2017 11:23 AM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: If you have watched Sheldrake’s talk, how would you describe his 10 categories? I would call his categories hypotheses. But in any case, I found his "dialogue with David Bohm" much more informative: http://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/A_New_Scienc

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: [biosemiotics:9235] Rupert Sheldrake TED Talk

2017-05-31 Thread John F Sowa
On 5/31/2017 10:48 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: I agree that #3 is not a dogma of science. As Peirce emphasized and nearly all scientists agree, nothing is a dogma of science. John - PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to t

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Jay Zeman's existentialgraphs.com

2017-05-30 Thread John F Sowa
On 5/29/2017 4:38 PM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: Roberts (p.92) describes the “Prolegomena” as “Peirce’s last full scale revision of EG,” and notes that the “tinctures” did not really solve the problems with representing modal logic that Peirce thought he had solved in the spring of 1906. I agre

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Jay Zeman's existentialgraphs.com

2017-05-27 Thread John F Sowa
On 5/26/2017 8:49 AM, g...@gnusystems.ca wrote: my own site, http://www.gnusystems.ca/ProlegomPrag.htm, which I think improves on Zeman’s version in some respects, even correcting a few errors. Yes, that looks good. your contribution to the “Five Questions” collection, http://www.jfsowa.com/p

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Resources of placing CSP's scientific writings in context.

2017-05-25 Thread John F Sowa
On 5/25/2017 6:36 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: In recent weeks I have found references that give insights into the state of the logics of chemistry in the CSP era. Could you please copy the excerpts in an email note? A citation of 739-page book from 1860 and a 554-page book from 1952 would req

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