Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear list, Here are selected passages from Moss that pertains to our current conversation on virtuous interpretation and action. Of late, I have begun to stop using quotation marks because Google and *up to us* to find out. _ Aristotle clearly takes himself to be in broad agreement

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear list, Why Luke and not Matthew?.. Why not John? *"In the beginning was the **λόγος**". * *This is the very word used by the emperor: * *God acts, **συ**̀**ν* *λόγω**, with logos.* *I don't call a thing without logos** [**alogon**], a techne.* *quid sit deus*.. what would God be?

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

It’s okay, Helmut. Happy New Year everyone. Wendy > On 31 Dec 2017, at 18:23, Helmut Raulien wrote: > > Jon, > Yes, Ive read that too: After the three wise men had left, an angel told Mary > and Joseph that Herod wants to kill the child, and they should flee to Egypt, >

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Jon, Yes, Ive read that too: After the three wise men had left, an angel told Mary and Joseph that Herod wants to kill the child, and they should flee to Egypt, which they did. But the portray was "taken" in the barn, so they were not on their way yet, so technically they were not refugees

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Helmut, List: There are two accounts of the Holy Family in the Bible. Matthew includes the flight to Egypt to escape Herod after the visit of the Magi, which is presumably what the artist who portrayed them as refugees had in mind. Luke omits that particular episode. FYI, www.biblegateway.com

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

espect its role is similar to the role of logic or grammar.   My best wishes for 2018 to all,   Auke an Breemen                           Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes  

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ard Associate Professor Department of Philosophy Northern Arizona University (o) 928 523-8354 [2] - From: Skagestad, Peter Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 6:12:01 PM To: Peirce-L; Gary Richmond Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Gary, list,

RE: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

. That is why semiotics is a normative science. Best wishes, Auke van Breemen Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zondag 31 december 2017 4:02 Aan: Peirce-L <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Peter

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ff > > > Jeffrey Downard > Associate Professor > Department of Philosophy > Northern Arizona University > (o) 928 523-8354 <(928)%20523-8354> > -- > *From:* Skagestad, Peter <peter_skages...@uml.edu> > *Sent:* Saturday, Decemb

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ct: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Gary, list, Yes, I also thought the aspect of Peirce’s semiotics that might be helpful was precisely his methodeutic or rhetoric - corresponding, I believe, to what today, following Charles Morris, is generally referred to as pragmatics. And that was

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

From: Gary Richmond <gary.richm...@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 5:49:25 PM To: Peirce-L Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes List, Well, whether or not much of this discussion has been very helpful to Peter's sister, there has cer

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

On 12/30/2017 2:35 PM, Ben Novak wrote: Ben I have long been wondering why there is so little discussion of relating Peirce's concepts and methodologies to concrete examples, or other 20th and even 21st century thinkers. I strongly with that criticism. Regarding this, it seems something

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

gt; the various posts we make will, I think, help keep our discussions on the > Peirce-L on a productive track. > > > > Thanks, > > > Jeff > > > *Jeffrey Downard* > Associate Professor > Department of Philosophy > Northern Arizona University > (o) 928 5

Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

>> Best, >> >> >> >> Auke >> >> >> >> *Van:* Helmut Raulien [mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de] >> *Verzonden:* zaterdag 30 december 2017 20:45 >> *Aan:* a.bree...@chello.nl >> *CC:* peirce-l@list.iupui.edu >> *Onderwerp:* Aw: RE: Re: Re:

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ubject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Dear John F. Sowa: You write in your email of 30 Dec., at 11:45 am: Ben > I have long been wondering why there is so little discussion > of relating Peirce's concepts and methodologies to concrete > examples, or other 20th and even 21st century

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ly put your finger on it without moving it. >> So, >>either you take a historical or cross cultural sample of images and start >>looking for relevant semiotic differences or you concentrate on the >> process >>of the making from brief to finished product and ask what semiotic >>decisi

RE: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Helmut, It is an instance of a legisign. Best, Auke Van: Helmut Raulien [mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 20:45 Aan: a.bree...@chello.nl CC: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu Onderwerp: Aw: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Auke, I see, except

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 10:02:29 AM To: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu; John F Sowa Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes John, list - I agree with all that John has written. Certainly one could do a Peircean semiotic analysis of a nativity scene but, as John noted, it would take 20 pag

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

se or communication habits. In this respect its role is similar to the role of logic or grammar.   My best wishes for 2018 to all,   Auke an Breemen                           Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L

Re: Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

f the making and whether those decisions improved >> the effectiveness of the goals aimed at. After all the history of the visual >> arts can be looked at as explorations of the communicative and expressive >> possibilities of signs. >> A Peircean semiotic analysis is on

Re: Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

the >> making from brief to finished product and ask what semiotic decisions have >> been made in the process of the making and whether those decisions improved >> the effectiveness of the goals aimed at. After all the history of the visual >> arts can be looked at as explorations of the communicative and expressive >> possibilities of signs. >> A Peircean semiotic analysis is o

Aw: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

; PEIRCE-L <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu>; Auke van Breemen <a.bree...@chello.nl>; Claudio Guerri <claudiogue...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes   Edwina, I see, and agree. Peirce cannot do much for this example. But how about the other

Aw: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

shes for 2018 to all,   Auke an Breemen                           Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes     Peter, Ben, Claudio, Edwina, Auke, list,  

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear John F. Sowa: You write in your email of 30 Dec., at 11:45 am: Ben > I have long been wondering why there is so little discussion > of relating Peirce's concepts and methodologies to concrete > examples, or other 20th and even 21st century thinkers. >> I strongly with that criticism.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

t;nature of a cloth if you only put your finger on it without moving it. >> So, >>either you take a historical or cross cultural sample of images and start >>looking for relevant semiotic differences or you concentrate on the >> process >>of the making from brief to finished product and ask

RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

interests than when looking for changes in sign use or communication habits. In this respect its role is similar to the role of logic or grammar. My best wishes for 2018 to all, Auke an Breemen Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Ver

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

looking for changes in sign use or communication habits. In this respect its role is similar to the role of logic or grammar.   My best wishes for 2018 to all,   Auke an Breemen                           Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden:

Re: Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

for 2018 to all, Auke an Breemen Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Peter, Ben, Claudio, Edwina, Auke, list, I would tend to agree w

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } John, list - I agree with all that John has written. Certainly one could do a Peircean semiotic analysis of a nativity scene but, as John noted, it would take 20 pages and frankly, in my view, what would be

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

its role is similar to the role of logic or grammar.   My best wishes for 2018 to all,   Auke an Breemen                           Van: Gary Richmond [mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity sce

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Ben, Helmut, Peter, and Edwina, Ben I have long been wondering why there is so little discussion of relating Peirce's concepts and methodologies to concrete examples, or other 20th and even 21st century thinkers. I strongly with that criticism. To understand Peirce's writings and their

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Peter, Ben, Claudio, Edwina, Auke, list, I would tend to agree with you, Peter, that Peircean semiotics may not have too much to offer in the analysis o

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

ct its role is >similar to the role of logic or grammar. > > > > My best wishes for 2018 to all, > > > > Auke an Breemen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Van: Gary R

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

listers have  requested an image of the Trondheim Nativity scene, so here it is, attached.   Best, Peter From: Ben Novak <trevriz...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 5:13:43 PM To: Jerry Rhee Cc: Auke van Breemen; Peirce-L Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes   D

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

...@gmail.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Peter, Ben, Claudio, Edwina, Auke, list, I would tend to agree with you, Peter

RE: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 december 2017 0:32 Aan: Peirce-L <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> Onderwerp: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Peter, Ben, Claudio, Edwina, Auke, list, I would tend to agree with you, Peter, that Peircean semiotics may not have too much to offer in the an

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Hi all, Look what I just found on *Patheos*: On the occasion of the coming World Day of Migrants and Refugees, and looking at the *Holy Family of Nazareth, icon of all families*, I would like to invite you to reflect on the condition of the migrant family. Read more at

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

r > -- > *From:* Ben Novak <trevriz...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 29, 2017 5:13:43 PM > *To:* Jerry Rhee > *Cc:* Auke van Breemen; Peirce-L > *Subject:* Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes > > Dear List: > > I am a long-time foll

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

iz...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 29, 2017 5:13:43 PM > *To:* Jerry Rhee > *Cc:* Auke van Breemen; Peirce-L > *Subject:* Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes > > Dear List: > > I am a long-time follower of the discussions on Peirce List, and am most > grateful

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Ben, list Then, how, Ben, would you have advised Peter? I agree with you that there is, at least on this list, unfortunately little discussion relating Peirce's concepts/methods to concrete examples, but

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear List: I am a long-time follower of the discussions on Peirce List, and am most grateful for some of the discussions of Peirce's thought, which makes me continue to read each entry. However, I have long been wondering why there is so little discussion of relating Peirce's concepts and

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Auke, Peter, list, Is not “Holy Family as present-day refugees from the Middle East” image enough? At least surprising enough for Google. And ye tell me, friends, that there is to be no dispute about taste and tasting? But all life is a dispute about taste and tasting! Taste: that is

RE: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Peter, Did you provide an image of what you described in your original question? I have a somewhat unusual question. My sister is writing an Art History thesis on nativity scenes and their contemporary relevance. An example is one at a street mission in Trondheim, Norway, depicting the

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

On 12/29/2017 11:24 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: My own view is that I think that this is getting into a complex over-intellectualized outline of what is actually a simple, basic analogy. I strongly agree. There is nothing special about nativity scenes that differs in any significant way from

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Edwina, List, I think that this is the first time that I don't agree with you... already two times in the last days. 1. "semiotics has nothing to say about such an analogy" If the Peircean semiotic has nothing to say, then we should close the List. I think that exegesis of Peirce's work should

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Claudio, list: My own view is that I think that this is getting into a complex over-intellectualized outline of what is actually a simple, basic analogy. As I see it, none of this - what can certainly be an enjoyable intellectual exercise for the academic mind - enlightens us

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

me as highly relevant to my >> question, and I will refer my sister to a few quotes from Mead. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Peter >> >> >> -- >> *From:* Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> >> *

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

R Chandler Cc: Peirce List; Skagestad, Peter Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes   Jerry: I am quite aware of your post and don't need to re-read it. I'm not sure what you mean by "your response with its conjectures that give a hint as to the identity your character' means - but it

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

of empathy. Peter - From: Edwina Taborsky Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 3:19:17 PM To: tabor...@primus.ca; Jerry LR Chandler Cc: Peirce List; Skagestad, Peter Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Jerry: I am quite aware of your post and

Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

cember 28, 2017 3:37:58 PM To: tabor...@primus.ca; Jon Alan Schmidt Cc: Peirce List Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Jon, list: I consider you are diverting from the issue with your 'well, the question didn't use the term analogy'... Here's Peter's comment: "My sister

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

From: Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 3:11:43 PM To: Eugene Halton Cc: Peirce List Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Gene, Gary R., List: How one actually responds to this or any other Sign (Dynamic Interpr

Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Jon, list: I consider you are diverting from the issue with your 'well, the question didn't use the term analogy'... Here's Peter's comment: "My sister is writing an Art History thesis on nativity scenes

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

of empathy. Peter From: Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 3:19:17 PM To: tabor...@primus.ca; Jerry LR Chandler Cc: Peirce List; Skagestad, Peter Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes Jerry: I am quite aware of you

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Gary R - I'll continue to disagree. I don't think that Peircean semiotics can be used to correlate these two types of refugees. As far as destitution of both sets - that is open to question on both sets - and I

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Edwina, List: Peter's initial post did not say anything about analogy, either. The original question was about the "contemporary relevance" of nativity scenes. From a Peircean semeiotic perspective, it seems obvious to me that this has to do with their Interpretants. Evoking compassion is

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Jerry: I am quite aware of your post and don't need to re-read it. I'm not sure what you mean by "your response with its conjectures that give a hint as to the identity your character' means - but it sounds rather insulting and out of line on this thread. There is no

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Gene, Gary R., List: How one actually responds to this or any other Sign (Dynamic Interpretants) will depend on one's peculiar habits of interpretation (Final Interpretants)--feeling, action, and thought--as inculcated by one's upbringing and subsequently cultivated by one's deliberate

Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } Jon, list Again, as I've said, the issue of compassion was never brought up in the question. The question was whether semiotics [which I presume refers to Peircean semiotics] was applicable to use in some kind

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Edwina, Gene, Peter, Jon S, Jon A, list, Edwina wrote: Where I would quibble with you, Gary, apart from the fact that such an analysis has nothing to do with Peircean semiotics - is that one has to, I think, be careful with analogies. One situation may be similar to another situation only in

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Edwinia: Please re-read my post. It simply states two parallel sentences. Does your response, with its conjectures that give a hint as to the identity your character, confirm my suggestion that there is no room for compassion in semiotics? :-) Best Wishes to All for a New year filled with

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Edwina, List: But that is not the form of argument in view here at all; it is more like the following, as I understand it. 1. The members of the Holy Family were destitute in a foreign land. 2. I feel compassion for the members of the Holy Family. 3. Therefore, I ought to feel

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear list, Silence gives grace to woman- though that is not the case likewise with a man. Everything in woman is a riddle, and everything in woman hath one solution —it is called pregnancy. Man is for woman a means: the purpose is always the child. But what is woman for man? SUPPOSING

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Jerry, list - but apart from the perhaps-not-quite-accurate analogy of 'destitute in a foreign land' - don't you consider that it is rationally dangerous to set up an analogy that might imply that the attributes of one set can possibly be fully applied to the second set? Human

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Yes, Gary, perhaps I did not state it clearly enough. Without the capacity to be the other at the same time as oneself, key to Mead's definition of the significant symbol and to empathy, nothing will be imparted. With that capacity, the scene can impart something new to the witness, an

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Peter, List: Is it possible that what is missing from this philosophical discussion is simple human compassion? The Holy Family were destitute in a foreign land. in parallel sentence structure for the image (icon) without regard to the facts not stated of the two images, The refuges are

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear list, The disparity between what something is and how an opinion or opinions about it show up in someone of a particular character is always the engine of any Platonic argument.. All deliberative mediation, or thinking, takes the form of a dialogue. The person divides himself into two

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Gary R, list - Where I would quibble with you, Gary, apart from the fact that such an analysis has nothing to do with Peircean semiotics - is that one has to, I think, be careful with analogies. One situation may

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Eugene, Peter, list, I very much like your analysis, Gene. You wrote: The implication here is that the experience of the nativity scene, with refugees representing today as echoing Jesus as a refugee, imparts in the witness an ability to empathize with "the other." However, I think that rather

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Gene, list - I appreciate your outline, but I think that it shows the capacity of the human mind - to imagine just about anything. To say that X IS Y; and that Y IS Z , is a purely artificial and imagined

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear Peter, Peirce described the way in which symbols can grow over time. And clearly one of the meanings of the symbol of the nativity is the family. Feuerbach called attention to how the holy family symbol is a representation of the earthly family. Marx took it further by claiming that the

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Jerry, list - heh, very funny. And quite accurate as a logical set-up. Edwina On Thu 28/12/17 11:41 AM , Jerry Rhee jerryr...@gmail.com sent: Dear Peter, list, The surprising fact, “ Holy Family

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Dear Peter, list, The surprising fact, “Holy Family as present-day refugees from the Middle East”, is observed; But if “Holy family from Buckingham Palace” were true, C would be a matter of course.. Best, Jerry R On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:

Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nativity scenes

Peter - in my view, semiotics has nothing to say about such an analogy - for that is all it is: a 'metaphoric' analogy. Saussure's semiology - which has nothing to do with Peircean semiotics - would be better suited, but even then, I don't see the rationale for using such a conceptual