on thier
accuracy), but that's more a style thing:
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/laine/postgresql/programmer/arch-pg.htm#PGARCH-CONNECTIONS
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/static/arch-pg.html#PGARCH-CONNECTIONS
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/static/connect-estab.html
--
Robert Treat
Build
trigger that executes a DELETE, which then
fires row level calls.]
This seems to completly hand-wave away the idea of implementing row level
visibility in statement level triggers, something I am hoping to see
implemented somewhere down the line. Am I missing something?
--
Robert Treat
Build
, although that's rather ugly ;-) I'll commit this
change for now, but if anyone comes up with a simpler recipe I'll be happy.
Note we've been using Theo's plperl bytea patch on one of our production
servers for some time; if anyone wants access to that lmk.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
match
), but not partitioning?
Yes, but aiui, SE should allow seq scans to achieve performance similar to
partitioning, especially if the planner can exclude segments based on values
in the data.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end
the
partitions. If using segment exclusion on it meant that I could get a global
index to help that query, I'd be happy.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched
segment
exclusion to handle what is currently handled by partitions, and create
a global index across all the other data for that other, currently killer,
query.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
to manage this, which as of yet I am skeptical.
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
http://archives.postgresql.org
On Monday 10 December 2007 10:16, Tom Lane wrote:
Further down the road, those whose notion of intuitive was formed
by mysql might lobby to have -u become an alternate spelling for -U,
crontab, truss, sudo, ps, strace, top, etc...
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache
| 2007-12-09 11:25:52.923612
If you store without timezone, you lose the original timezone information, so
selecting out with time zone simply selects the stored time in the time
zone you selected. HTH.
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
, but in any case is there some reason it can't print out the proper
user name (maybe some encoding issue?)
3) as far back as I can remember, -u has been deprecated, so if we dont want
to revert to it (see 1) maybe it should just be removed entirely?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache
to the regular
mailing lists for help (which contrib authors may not follow).
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do
On Sunday 09 December 2007 13:33, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1) I don't recall why -u was ever deprecated (and honestly postgresql is
the only program I know which uses -U rather than -u) but maybe we should
revert to -u and deprecate -U instread?
You appear
people is removed
eventually, which doesn't happen with release notes.
Unless it's been changed, I added the past contributors section just for the
purpose of giving a historical credit and ongoing thanks for past
contribution.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware
lists, or
involving the central project.
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
person entering the query anyway,
because there are layers of software between him and the DB. All they
will accomplish is to bloat some logs somewhere.
Comments?
I would lean toward #1 since it seems to be closest to the behavior from
previous releases.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP
of notice (and
given the lack of back patches, should be too much of a burden in that time
either)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL
creating a tablespace on tmpfs or ramfs or something
like pramfs
FYI, Postgres is know to be used successfully on some *extremely* heavy
websites, without using tables pinned in memory.
+1
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
any pressure, but this fix had me wondering if we might see an
8.2.6 before 8.3 is out?
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map
now that we have?
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
http://archives.postgresql.org
://ftp.postgresql.org/pub/projects/pgFoundry). If it was to go on
pgfoundry (which I'd recommend) I'd suggest removing it from 8.3 contrib
before we release (cause having it in both places is really going to cause
confusion)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 10:57, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
Robert Treat wrote:
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 02:09, Simon Riggs wrote:
On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 01:14 -0300, Euler Taveira de Oliveira wrote:
Simon Riggs wrote:
I would prefer that we backported pg_standby into 8.2 contrib, so
of F.A.Q. is little bit obsolette.
The FAQ's *are* managed in html, though we also keep a spare copy as plain
text for historical reasons. See doc/src/FAQ/
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
to core or to pgFoundry. Adding yet
another important feature that's just in contrib is making things
worse, not better.
IMHO, of course ;-)
+1. I felt the same way about pg_standby, which would have been far more
accessible for 8.2 users had it lived on pg_foundry.
--
Robert Treat
Build
tsearch in it's own schema, so I can
easily seperate it with pg_dump.
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
how this isn't a win. I'll clean it up and apply it.
Just curious, but does this apply to subtransactions that are the result of
plpgsql try...exception blocks? And how many is lots? Presumably looping 50k
times in a single procedure would be enough?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP
the pgtranslation project, see
http://pgtranslation.projects.postgresql.org/contributing.html to get
started.
I believe both the pgAdmin III and phpPgAdmin projects (and probably others)
would also welcome any translation contributions you can give.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache
://pgtranslation.projects.postgresql.org/status.html
what's the relevant link?
PgAdminIII
http://pgadmin.org/translation/
phpPgAdmin
http://phppgadmin.cvs.sourceforge.net/phppgadmin/webdb/TRANSLATORS?revision=1.13
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wednesday 05 September 2007 12:01, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wednesday 05 September 2007 00:06, Tom Lane wrote:
BTW, on re-reading that, it seems a tad surprising to get an error right
there --- if postgres_fe.h or anything it includes were broken
Just wondering if it is already in 8.3 with a new name, or if not if there are
plans to add it? TIA
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet
On Wednesday 05 September 2007 00:06, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I get the following error during make (configure runs fine)
/usr/include/netdb.h:560: error: syntax error before =E2=80=98[=E2=80=99
to= ken
Which line of netdb.h is that exactly? I'm thinking
, so apps already need a way to deal with that. I would agree that the
behavior of the column has changed, so it might cause some odd behvaior in
apps that rely on it.
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
On Wednesday 05 September 2007 18:40, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm trying to decide how reasonable the use case is. We have transactions
that run several hours long, often touching a number of tables, and I've
used the transaction to get a list of all
warning. I looked at a handful of other machines configured for xml and they
all seemed right, but maybe someone can do a more thorough search in the db?
Or maybe there is a way to capture configure warnings?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
TODO
list? If it needs to be I could take a whack at it (though perhaps things are
still to in flux to worry about this yet?)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 2: Don't 'kill
On Sunday 02 September 2007 10:29, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
postgres=# \dF
Did not find any relation named F.
Works for me. When did you last recompile psql?
Blah I compiled last night, using the latest snapshot in the
postgresql/dev/ directory in ftp
of corner cases,
special siutations, if's and but's (and candies and nuts), that I fear will
lead to more confusion for end users, and make development more difficult in
the future as we forced to try and live with backwards compatability.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache
.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
http://archives.postgresql.org
, ruby, python, bash etc...
If you don't like it, don't use it and use C instead.
:)
Keep in mind that the obfuscation techniques that can be used by python
and perl are all reversible.
Hmm I wonder if you could wire plphp through something like Zend Gaurd?
--
Robert Treat
Build
talking about general solutions to admin and/or gui
interfaceing problems (even the hacky non-core style solutions might be ok if
they are approach from the idea of being able to solve a problem at the sql
level)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
to hackers, so I'd
ask those interested to check out the .net project page at
http://pgfoundry.org/projects/npgsql/
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 7: You can help support
, Tom doesn't look at the log files, so I guess your idea is shot...
:-)
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating
it in the last week, all
doing seperate things. Coincidence, or sign of impending doom? :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
be
consensus first...
I generally recommend to try autovacuum first, augmented by
vacuum/analyze/reindex if you find trouble. I wont say there aren't
workloads that autvacuum wont handle, but in most cases it does fine, and I
expect that increase with 8.3.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP
packaging, I noticed it's
now been over a year since I first complained about the stable snapshots in
our ftp directory being outdated
(http://www.postgresql.org/ftp/stable_snapshot/), if no one is going to fix
that, can we remove them?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache
their willing to place on development, I see them a good
chicken/egg away from making it a continually usefull tool.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 3: Have you checked our
at systemtap instead (
http://sourceware.org/systemtap/wiki ) which is a bit immature but is
going the right direction.
I will now bow my head and wait for someone to suggest you move to an OS
that supports dtrace.
You know that's what I was thinking :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP
of extending the standard to allow this case if not.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
http://archives.postgresql.org
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
On Tuesday 29 May 2007 20:06, Jaime Casanova wrote:
On 5/27/07, Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Friday 25 May 2007 12:39, Jaime Casanova wrote:
On 5/25/07, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bernd Helmle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
--On Freitag, Mai 25, 2007 10:49:29 +
could be put into drop
tablespace itself?
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Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
when the proposal was originally laid on the
table?
snip
I haven't studied the proposed syntaxes in detail,
snip
lol... just thought this was ironic. :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
the information rather than just
refer to the buildfarm HOWTO.
And really should probably be written up into FAQ section or a full on guide
for how do i get started hacking on postgresql?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
the latter it won't really be useful.
Maybe you just need to have a 1 week clock skew when reading pgsql-bugs?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 7: You can help support
to
wipe it all out, we can just put a Redirect on the web server on
gborg over to
pgfoundry so that ppl can't go *to* gborg's web site ... we can also
make the
CVS 'read-only', so that developers can't update the CVS there, but
ppl can
still download the code ...
--
Robert Treat
Build
at a specific point in
time.
As for inclusion in the docs I beleive we're still waiting for your
patch...
We'll see :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 3: Have you
enabled with the default
postgresql.conf settings.)
+1
--
Robert Treat
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail
On Monday 23 April 2007 18:17, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
That would be just because you don't know the numbering scheme. 8.2 to
8.3 is considered major in these parts. See
http://www.postgresql.org/support/versioning
Is that official policy? I don't see any mention of it in the docs.
--
Robert
(which is not on 8.0 AFAIR).
blinks Um, can I get a pointer to that thread? I can't imagine why we
would actually want to automatically destroy our data without oversight from
a DBA... I must be reading that wrong.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 20:54, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm with Joshua on this one. Statement_timeout is often used as a means
for protection from long running statements due to server load and
locking and all of the above commands can certainly fall
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:30, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
Robert Treat wrote:
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 20:54, Tom Lane wrote:
I'm not excited about the other ones but I can see the argument for
making pg_dump force the timeout to 0.
Allowing pg_dump to run un-checked could also lead
.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
there as a backstop; you're not depending
on them for correctness.
With that argument why have unique constraints at all?
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 7: You can help
it easier for people getting in on the ground floor)
--
Robert Treat
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
].
I would think this is a separate project from the maintenance window
change proper.
IF the OP want's the project to be considered, he needs to submit an
application TODAY. (Read that as I don't see an application in yet)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware
?
--
Robert Treat
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your
- will anybody
except pghackers see that? New opclass layout, new opfamily table - users
don't that changes at all.
If I have configured my tsearch install for spanish (spanish
dictionary/stemmers/synonyms/etc...) aren't I going to lose all that on the
next database upgrade?
--
Robert Treat
are not dumped by default, so that seems easier, until you consider that your
custom tsearch install will then be lost on upgrade... oops!
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP
a range of someval - MAXINT for instance, to catch such cases.
That again means that the onus is on the partition creator most of the
times..
*shrug*... we can do that now in pgsql
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end
semantics?
Given that Simon wants to do away with having the master table APPENDed in
the planning phase, this would be better.
ISTM you're trading appending the master table for appending the DUMP
partition, which afaict would give you no gain.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux
not to listen* and here it is documented.
As long as we're pretending that were doing this right, we ought to add the
notice as part of the list signup message that is sent out to anyone how
signs up to the list.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
of a FK relationship, but
otherwise this should be fairly safe even for replay since alter table needs
an exclusive lock, so you have finite points where data for the table would
be written or ignored.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
postgresql systems out of disk space both on data partitions
and wal partitions and never suffered corruption. Certainly I don't
recommend the practice, but pg can be amazingly resilient at times.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
? This might help folks judge whether any
proposed solution for postgres will be above or below potential users
expectations.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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TIP 4: Have you
in the SoC
process. (Picking items from the TODO list is a good way to start if you need
ideas)
--
Robert Treat
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives
version is so
much better it's worth it to work out remote X and use that instead :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your
On Monday 26 February 2007 14:57, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
Robert Treat wrote:
FWIW ClearCase also offers a command line version of its merge tool,
where it shows three columns (a la diff --side-by-side) and allows you to
pick which column you want to merge in (repo, change1, or change2
competition, and IMHO that's
what we should do. There are many more-pressing things for us to spend
time on right now than an SCMS conversion.
100% Agreed.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
until
someone comes along who's interested in implementing them both at the
same time.
Are you that opposed to working on the display portions as well? You'll be a
hero to thousands of mysql users if you do it.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
release and I rely on you. It was my fault,
of course.
I got bit by this today and, afaict the best solution for the status quo would
be to change the install schema to something like tsearch2, which would then
allow for much easier dump and restore handling.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter
the information as needed? :-)
--
Robert Treat
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL
is this behavior by design? if so why would you design it that way? :-)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
On Tuesday 20 February 2007 12:50, Tom Lane wrote:
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
pagila=# create or replace function test() returns bool as $$ begin set
statement_timeout = 3000; perform pg_sleep(4) ; return true; end $$
language plpgsql;
CREATE FUNCTION
statement_timeout
pg_migrator's behavior shouldnt change terribly. If your doing
pg_dump based upgrade, presumably pg_dump could write it's create statements
with the columns in attstorpos order and set attnum = attstorpos, preserving
the physical layout from the previous install.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter
instinctively hit delete when I saw that phrase.
Too bad... I know oracle can do what he wants... possibly other db systems as
well.
--
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 7: You can
to a specific tablespace (like you can do for
users) would allow for a lot of flexibility in tuning queries that go across
different tablespaces.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
workable is using PITR with weekly
filesystem snapshots as the base and then copying the xlogs offline for
re-play. It's still tricky to get right, but it seems to work.
--
Robert Treat
Database Architect
OmniTI Computer Consulting, Inc.
---(end of broadcast
://developer.spikesource.com/info/search.php?c=POSTGRESQLview=details
--
Robert Treat
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---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe
memory is pretty fuzzy on this), so if I could avoid
changing it I would...
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
http
of the person
or entity to whom this message was originally addressed.
Please delete this e-mail, if it is not meant for you.
---
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
.
I don't find the reasons too compelling - but they are points to
consider.
5) GNUTLS does not run well under all of our supported platforms.
given options like --enable-dtrace and --with-libedit-preferred, I don't find
this argument compelling...
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP
this TODO removed.
OK, removed.
I thought this was needed for spec compliance? If we have no plans to even
attempt to support it, istm that ought to be noted someplace.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end
be removed yet). Given this
patch came from userland, istm people are comfortable enough with this
terminology there is no need to change it.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 2
is also to add
controls at the table level (where we'll know the vacrelid anyway) though it
will probably be put off until there is more demand for it.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast
against it.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
updated timestamp field.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
http://archives.postgresql.org
On Sunday 12 November 2006 16:23, Simon Riggs wrote:
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 13:01 -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
On Friday 10 November 2006 08:53, Simon Riggs wrote:
On Fri, 2006-11-10 at 12:32 +0100, Zeugswetter Andreas ADI SD wrote:
4. although at first it might seem so I see no advantage
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