Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
My father just recently got a purchase requisition for a dual Xeon P4 system approved for the CAD dept. at the company he works for. His CAD dept. runs AutoCAD. He always asks me what is the current thing. I always say, "why ask me? My newest computer is over a year old". I tried to recommend a dual-PIII machine, but he had to have the P4. Unfortunately, the P4 is available in dual-CPU systems only with the Xeon version (very pricey!). His new system cost about $6500. I tried to talk him out of spending so much for diminishing returns, but he always wants the biggest, fastest thing available at the time. He says he only gets approval for stuff like that once every five years, so it has to last a long time! And besides, it's the company's money, not his, that is being spent. Personally, as a business owner, I would want my employees to be better stewards of my money than that. But then, there is much strife among the employees and management at the company he works for. Sounds very Dilbertian to me... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: "Mike Ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > I fully agree that the motherboard needs to be of the highest quality, but > would propose that in fact a $5000 dual xeon (p4) motherboard setup is not > the best way to spend your budget. > > Mike > > > On 2002.07.22 10:06 Andrew Jenkins wrote: > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Mike Ingle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:53 PM > > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > > concern. > > > > > > > > > I would guess that your money on Protel would go the furthest > > > with a lower > > > cost motherboard and LOTS of memory and plenty of display > > > space. Cut those > > > pans. dual display?? triple display ??matrox g550 is working > > > nicely here > > > on 2 diplays. > > > > The above is poor advise. In fact, it is the definition of poor advise. > > No > > offense intended, but the motherboard is just about the most important > > component in a computer workstation, and definitely not the kind of > > component that should be offed to the "golly, them don't matter much'n, > > anyways" category in a technical venue such as this, by technical > > professionals like the average PEDA subscriber. If a consumer is about to > > plunk down eight thousand dollars or so (US) on a niche market program > > like > > Protel EDA, (or if the consumer already has...) and the consumer expects > > to > > be productive, maximize profits, and minimize headaches and downtime, > > then > > the consumer had better think long and hard before subscribing to the > > WalMart Computing model, especially when it comes to critical components > > like the motherboard. It is not unreasonable to expect that the user > > should > > consider a cost of around $2500-3000 for the entire system (monitor > > included), if he/she specifies the components and takes the time to get > > fair > > price, perhaps 25% more if the task is delegated to a trust-worthy > > "middle-man" operation. It should not be surprising either to accept that > > a > > decent motherboard is going to cost you somewhere around $200-300 (US) > > (and > > up) > > > > Http://www.Supermicro.com is one area that Brian might want to > > investigate, > > if Brain is interested in performance-level multi-processor motherboards. > > Not a company poo-hooed by the gamer set, I know, because their designs > > aren't all that friendly to over-clocking geeks, but then, as > > professional > > engineers, PCB designers, and the like, most of us don't really have time > > to > > be pissing around with such trivial and tertiary pursuits at work > > anyway... > > > > 2p+, > > > > aj > > > > > > > > > > * Tracking #: A64FAD8221983146AD3E7965686A68540350E602 > > * > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: > > I tried to talk him out of spending so much for diminishing returns, but he > always wants the biggest, fastest thing available at the time. He says he > only gets approval for stuff like that once every five years, so it has to > last a long time! And besides, it's the company's money, not his, that is > being spent. Personally, as a business owner, I would want my employees to > be better stewards of my money than that. But then, there is much strife > among the employees and management at the company he works for. Sounds very > Dilbertian to me... It truly amazes me what goes on in large corporations, especially multinationals. I have some friends who work for MasterCard, and the stories out of there are beyond belief. If there is a specific product that has anything to do with computers, it has to be bought from the vendor that has been specified for computer acquisition for that year. So, if they need memory chips, or GPIB interfaces, or video monitors, or laptops, or IBM mainframes, they HAVE to order it from Unisys (the chosen vendor at least some of the years). I don't know what overhead Unisys would charge on a Dell laptop, or an IBM 390 mainframe, or a memory stick. But, it HAS to cost WAY over what you can just buy it from the manufacturer for. Also, it usually takes something like 2 days of manpower to make sure the chosen vendor actualy know what to buy for you from the actual manufacturer of the item! The internal overhead must cost them $1M a year, minimum, just at their St. Louis facility alone! Scott Adams might have to start a whole new comic strip if he knew what went on there! Jon * Tracking #: B6A3556EEB60CC45B4642F880D954558E105F6A4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
> > > > -Original Message- > > From: Mike Ingle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:53 PM > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > concern. > > > > > > I would guess that your money on Protel would go the furthest > > with a lower > > cost motherboard and LOTS of memory and plenty of display > > space. Cut those > > pans. dual display?? triple display ??matrox g550 is working > > nicely here > > on 2 diplays. > > The above is poor advise. In fact, it is the definition of poor advise. No > offense intended, but the motherboard is just about the most important > component in a computer workstation, and definitely not the kind of > component that should be offed to the "golly, them don't matter much'n, > anyways" category in a technical venue such as this, by technical > professionals like the average PEDA subscriber. If a consumer is about to > plunk down eight thousand dollars or so (US) on a niche market program like > Protel EDA, (or if the consumer already has...) and the consumer expects to > be productive, maximize profits, and minimize headaches and downtime, then > the consumer had better think long and hard before subscribing to the > WalMart Computing model, especially when it comes to critical components > like the motherboard. It is not unreasonable to expect that the user should > consider a cost of around $2500-3000 for the entire system (monitor > included), if he/she specifies the components and takes the time to get fair > price, perhaps 25% more if the task is delegated to a trust-worthy > "middle-man" operation. It should not be surprising either to accept that a > decent motherboard is going to cost you somewhere around $200-300 (US) (and > up) > > Http://www.Supermicro.com is one area that Brian might want to investigate, > if Brain is interested in performance-level multi-processor motherboards. > Not a company poo-hooed by the gamer set, I know, because their designs > aren't all that friendly to over-clocking geeks, but then, as professional > engineers, PCB designers, and the like, most of us don't really have time to > be pissing around with such trivial and tertiary pursuits at work anyway... > > 2p+, > > aj Finally, The first post here that makes some real sense. I have a serious contract to work on. Tony was right ->(You must have quoted someone a flat rate on a big job??? :))< I did. I do not wish to be late on the job, or, cut corners to save time. Repeat business here would be a big + to my bank account. :) This is not the first time I had a contract to re-do an existing PCBs because of a sloppy, auto-routed design that was plagued with manufacturing & odd functional problems which differed from board to board. Impressed with my existing manual layout work, I've been contracted to manual re-route a huge board. Personally, this is not my favorite type of work, but, the $$$ I'll be making is well worth a professional system which should glide through all of the aspects of the PCB design. It's sad however, If Protel were to fix the auto-pan, I mean, really do it properly, I might be tempted to work with my existing Dual 1GHz system, but, system performance affects many other things like, re-building polygons, DRC, push & shove routing, auto-backups, and ect... Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 * Tracking #: B6D02F2D1819E94E8B17A52188A00A5C7AEA19D8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
I fully agree that the motherboard needs to be of the highest quality, but would propose that in fact a $5000 dual xeon (p4) motherboard setup is not the best way to spend your budget. Mike On 2002.07.22 10:06 Andrew Jenkins wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Mike Ingle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:53 PM > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > concern. > > > > > > I would guess that your money on Protel would go the furthest > > with a lower > > cost motherboard and LOTS of memory and plenty of display > > space. Cut those > > pans. dual display?? triple display ??matrox g550 is working > > nicely here > > on 2 diplays. > > The above is poor advise. In fact, it is the definition of poor advise. > No > offense intended, but the motherboard is just about the most important > component in a computer workstation, and definitely not the kind of > component that should be offed to the "golly, them don't matter much'n, > anyways" category in a technical venue such as this, by technical > professionals like the average PEDA subscriber. If a consumer is about to > plunk down eight thousand dollars or so (US) on a niche market program > like > Protel EDA, (or if the consumer already has...) and the consumer expects > to > be productive, maximize profits, and minimize headaches and downtime, > then > the consumer had better think long and hard before subscribing to the > WalMart Computing model, especially when it comes to critical components > like the motherboard. It is not unreasonable to expect that the user > should > consider a cost of around $2500-3000 for the entire system (monitor > included), if he/she specifies the components and takes the time to get > fair > price, perhaps 25% more if the task is delegated to a trust-worthy > "middle-man" operation. It should not be surprising either to accept that > a > decent motherboard is going to cost you somewhere around $200-300 (US) > (and > up) > > Http://www.Supermicro.com is one area that Brian might want to > investigate, > if Brain is interested in performance-level multi-processor motherboards. > Not a company poo-hooed by the gamer set, I know, because their designs > aren't all that friendly to over-clocking geeks, but then, as > professional > engineers, PCB designers, and the like, most of us don't really have time > to > be pissing around with such trivial and tertiary pursuits at work > anyway... > > 2p+, > > aj > > > > > * Tracking #: A64FAD8221983146AD3E7965686A68540350E602 > * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
> -Original Message- > From: Mike Ingle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:53 PM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > concern. > > > I would guess that your money on Protel would go the furthest > with a lower > cost motherboard and LOTS of memory and plenty of display > space. Cut those > pans. dual display?? triple display ??matrox g550 is working > nicely here > on 2 diplays. The above is poor advise. In fact, it is the definition of poor advise. No offense intended, but the motherboard is just about the most important component in a computer workstation, and definitely not the kind of component that should be offed to the "golly, them don't matter much'n, anyways" category in a technical venue such as this, by technical professionals like the average PEDA subscriber. If a consumer is about to plunk down eight thousand dollars or so (US) on a niche market program like Protel EDA, (or if the consumer already has...) and the consumer expects to be productive, maximize profits, and minimize headaches and downtime, then the consumer had better think long and hard before subscribing to the WalMart Computing model, especially when it comes to critical components like the motherboard. It is not unreasonable to expect that the user should consider a cost of around $2500-3000 for the entire system (monitor included), if he/she specifies the components and takes the time to get fair price, perhaps 25% more if the task is delegated to a trust-worthy "middle-man" operation. It should not be surprising either to accept that a decent motherboard is going to cost you somewhere around $200-300 (US) (and up) Http://www.Supermicro.com is one area that Brian might want to investigate, if Brain is interested in performance-level multi-processor motherboards. Not a company poo-hooed by the gamer set, I know, because their designs aren't all that friendly to over-clocking geeks, but then, as professional engineers, PCB designers, and the like, most of us don't really have time to be pissing around with such trivial and tertiary pursuits at work anyway... 2p+, aj * Tracking #: A64FAD8221983146AD3E7965686A68540350E602 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
I would guess that your money on Protel would go the furthest with a lower cost motherboard and LOTS of memory and plenty of display space. Cut those pans. dual display?? triple display ??matrox g550 is working nicely here on 2 diplays. My point being if you are manually laying out, I wouldn't expect any wait w/ a dual athalon at about 40% the price of a dual p4 for 95+% the performance. The money spent on display hardware and memory should have the greatest effect. Also for compute intensive jobs like the autorouter or fpga compilers, I wouldn't expect that much improvement w/ a dual P4 over a dual Athalon. Mike On 2002.07.21 14:22 Brian Guralnick wrote: > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent starting > resource > > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > > Thanks, I completely forgot about Tom's hardware guide. I use to go > to that page back in the old days when I used to try to > overclock 200MHz processors... > > > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI may be > just > > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI decision > if > > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. > > I guess you never been on a system with a SCSI3 Raid, 2 drive Seagate > Cheetah drive at 15000 RPM. This really cuts swapfile > time access by 3x-4x. I never had problems with SCSI in the past. As > long as you separate your SCSI from printers & scanners & > cheap CDR drives, It should work without problems. Especially if the > SCSI controller is built on the motherboard. But, I must > admit, if I wanted large media files on the system, I would just add a > cheap 120GB IDE drive. > > > Brian Guralnick > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Voice (514) 624-4003 > Fax (514) 624-3631 > > - Original Message ----- > From: "Drew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:24 PM > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > concern. > > > > > > Brian, > > > > This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I have > great > > trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you spend a > good > > amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking at and the > > advice you receive. > > > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent starting > resource > > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > > The chipset and motherboard issue have too many variables to correctly > guess > > which one is the best and is largely determined by your CPU choice(s). > > From my personal experience, the pros of AMD are mostly seen on game > > oriented platforms, when money is no object. > > I believe the industry made a mistake with RDRAM. Go with the fastest > DDR > > available. DDR400, I think. > > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI may be > just > > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI decision > if > > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. > > I bought my power supply from PC Power and Cooling > www.pcpowerandcooling.com > > Never had any problems even when the power flickered, reset the cable > box > > and turned off the TV. I did not have a UPS at home and I know that > was > > just plain stupid, but my monitor never even flickered and I kept on > > working. I have had one person tell me afterwards that PC Power and > Cooling > > is just a reseller. I have not verified this. > > > > I am excited for you... > > I got my first big board near the end of last year. An 18-layer OC192 > card > > with the major components being 22 BGA's from 676 pins to 272 pins, 12 > QFP's > > from 100 to 32 pins, and a large multiple power supply section. It had > diff > > pairs, matched lengths, clock lines and controlled impedances. The > entire > > board was hand routed on my then new machine here at home, and a 420 > > Precision Dell that I was upgraded to at my work. The beautiful part > was > > the majority of the board was in four mostly repeatable sections. This > 24" > > x 8" card is still the most enjoyable project I have encountered to > date. > > > > My employer and I have had mostly good experiences with Dell support. > The > > bad experiences were only when we tried to use e-mail correspondence to > > solve an issue. > > > > Good luck to you. > > > > Cheers! >
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
> Tom's HG is not hugely useful I think if you are a professional interested > in rock-solid stability rather than overclocking tweaks. Reviews from some > of the big CAD magazines would be better but are harder to find. > > Ian Wilson After taking a brief look at Tom's hardware guide page, I fully agree. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: "Ian Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > On 11:24 AM 21/07/2002 -0700, Drew said: > > >Brian, > > > >This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I have great > >trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you spend a good > >amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking at and the > >advice you receive. > > I agree - do a search on the motherboard model number of Google Groups (the > old Deja News) and see if you can get a feel for the stability of the > motherboard - but don't forget that you will generally be seeing those with > problems. By doing this I found out about some power supply > susceptibilities in a Tyan's early dual AMD offering. > > > >Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent starting resource > >for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > > Tom's HG is not hugely useful I think if you are a professional interested > in rock-solid stability rather than overclocking tweaks. Reviews from some > of the big CAD magazines would be better but are harder to find. > > Ian Wilson > > > > * Tracking #: A732C82ADC6C144DAFC8F9F8DA9AF6497A8EBC9A > * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
On 11:24 AM 21/07/2002 -0700, Drew said: >Brian, > >This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I have great >trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you spend a good >amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking at and the >advice you receive. I agree - do a search on the motherboard model number of Google Groups (the old Deja News) and see if you can get a feel for the stability of the motherboard - but don't forget that you will generally be seeing those with problems. By doing this I found out about some power supply susceptibilities in a Tyan's early dual AMD offering. >Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent starting resource >for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. Tom's HG is not hugely useful I think if you are a professional interested in rock-solid stability rather than overclocking tweaks. Reviews from some of the big CAD magazines would be better but are harder to find. Ian Wilson * Tracking #: A732C82ADC6C144DAFC8F9F8DA9AF6497A8EBC9A * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
> Yes, true... > > You must have quoted someone a flat rate on a big job??? :) > I guess it's that obvious... Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > Yes, true... > > You must have quoted someone a flat rate on a big job??? :) > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:13 PM > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > concern. > > > > > > > I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a > > > Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 > > > that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's > > faster, but it > > > seems WAY faster. > > > > The problem with comparing earlier cpu's is that the > > performance characteristics radically change with regard to the latest > > available CPUs. Another problem is if you are not exactly sure > > what's in your system, the radical performance change between the > > Athlon900 & PIII-700 may be due to other advancements in your > > system, not just the cpu. Like video card, agp speed, memory speed & > > general motherboard chipset capabilities. Now I am not knocking > > Athlon here, I'm just saying I mean to get the fastest possible PC > > for Protel today within a 4-5K$ budget. > > > > I have a personal stake in this new PCB & time here will cost > > me money. I do not whish to wait for Protel at any time. I also > > do not want sluggish panning when routing the board since I will > > be manually routing it. I also do not want to buy a system which > > is a bit slower because of something silly like a cheap > > motherboard ram controller. > > > > > > ____ > > Brian Guralnick > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Voice (514) 624-4003 > > Fax (514) 624-3631 > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not > > a concern. > > > > > > > I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a > > > Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 > > > that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's > > faster, but it > > > seems WAY faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:25 AM > > > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > > > concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > > > This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I > > > > have great > > > > trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you > > spend a good > > > > amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking > > at and the > > > > advice you receive. > > > > > > > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent > > > > starting resource > > > > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > > > > The chipset and motherboard issue have too many variables to > > > > correctly guess > > > > which one is the best and is largely determined by your CPU choice(s). > > > > >From my personal experience, the pros of AMD are mostly seen on game > > > > oriented platforms, when money is no object. > > > > I believe the industry made a mistake with RDRAM. Go with > > the fastest DDR > > > > available. DDR400, I think. > > > > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI > > > > may be just > > > > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI > > decision if > > > > that decision is based on s
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
Yes, true... You must have quoted someone a flat rate on a big job??? :) > -Original Message- > From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:13 PM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > concern. > > > > I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a > > Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 > > that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's > faster, but it > > seems WAY faster. > > The problem with comparing earlier cpu's is that the > performance characteristics radically change with regard to the latest > available CPUs. Another problem is if you are not exactly sure > what's in your system, the radical performance change between the > Athlon900 & PIII-700 may be due to other advancements in your > system, not just the cpu. Like video card, agp speed, memory speed & > general motherboard chipset capabilities. Now I am not knocking > Athlon here, I'm just saying I mean to get the fastest possible PC > for Protel today within a 4-5K$ budget. > > I have a personal stake in this new PCB & time here will cost > me money. I do not whish to wait for Protel at any time. I also > do not want sluggish panning when routing the board since I will > be manually routing it. I also do not want to buy a system which > is a bit slower because of something silly like a cheap > motherboard ram controller. > > > > Brian Guralnick > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Voice (514) 624-4003 > Fax (514) 624-3631 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not > a concern. > > > > I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a > > Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 > > that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's > faster, but it > > seems WAY faster. > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:25 AM > > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > > concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I > > > have great > > > trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you > spend a good > > > amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking > at and the > > > advice you receive. > > > > > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent > > > starting resource > > > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > > > The chipset and motherboard issue have too many variables to > > > correctly guess > > > which one is the best and is largely determined by your CPU choice(s). > > > >From my personal experience, the pros of AMD are mostly seen on game > > > oriented platforms, when money is no object. > > > I believe the industry made a mistake with RDRAM. Go with > the fastest DDR > > > available. DDR400, I think. > > > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI > > > may be just > > > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI > decision if > > > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. > > > I bought my power supply from PC Power and Cooling > > > www.pcpowerandcooling.com > > > Never had any problems even when the power flickered, reset > the cable box > > > and turned off the TV. I did not have a UPS at home and I > know that was > > > just plain stupid, but my monitor never even flickered and I kept on > > > working. I have had one person tell me afterwards that PC Power > > > and Cooling > > > is just a reseller. I have not verified this. > > > > > > I am excited for you... > > > I got my first big board near the end of last year. An 18-layer > > > OC192 card > > > with the major components being 22 BGA's from 676 pins to 272 > > > pins, 12 QFP's > > > from 100 to 32 pins, and a large multiple power supply section. > > > It had diff > >
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
> Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent starting resource > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. Thanks, I completely forgot about Tom's hardware guide. I use to go to that page back in the old days when I used to try to overclock 200MHz processors... > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI may be just > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI decision if > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. I guess you never been on a system with a SCSI3 Raid, 2 drive Seagate Cheetah drive at 15000 RPM. This really cuts swapfile time access by 3x-4x. I never had problems with SCSI in the past. As long as you separate your SCSI from printers & scanners & cheap CDR drives, It should work without problems. Especially if the SCSI controller is built on the motherboard. But, I must admit, if I wanted large media files on the system, I would just add a cheap 120GB IDE drive. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: "Drew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > > Brian, > > This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I have great > trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you spend a good > amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking at and the > advice you receive. > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent starting resource > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > The chipset and motherboard issue have too many variables to correctly guess > which one is the best and is largely determined by your CPU choice(s). > From my personal experience, the pros of AMD are mostly seen on game > oriented platforms, when money is no object. > I believe the industry made a mistake with RDRAM. Go with the fastest DDR > available. DDR400, I think. > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI may be just > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI decision if > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. > I bought my power supply from PC Power and Cooling www.pcpowerandcooling.com > Never had any problems even when the power flickered, reset the cable box > and turned off the TV. I did not have a UPS at home and I know that was > just plain stupid, but my monitor never even flickered and I kept on > working. I have had one person tell me afterwards that PC Power and Cooling > is just a reseller. I have not verified this. > > I am excited for you... > I got my first big board near the end of last year. An 18-layer OC192 card > with the major components being 22 BGA's from 676 pins to 272 pins, 12 QFP's > from 100 to 32 pins, and a large multiple power supply section. It had diff > pairs, matched lengths, clock lines and controlled impedances. The entire > board was hand routed on my then new machine here at home, and a 420 > Precision Dell that I was upgraded to at my work. The beautiful part was > the majority of the board was in four mostly repeatable sections. This 24" > x 8" card is still the most enjoyable project I have encountered to date. > > My employer and I have had mostly good experiences with Dell support. The > bad experiences were only when we tried to use e-mail correspondence to > solve an issue. > > Good luck to you. > > Cheers! > Drew > > > - Original Message - > From: "Brian Guralnick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 3:35 PM > Subject: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I just got my first mega-huge contract for PCB design with Protel. We > are talking 8 x 1020 FBGAs + 4 x 1024 bit DDR sdram > > sections + a whole lot of other stuff. > > > > Price of system is not a concern. I have no problem in choosing OS, > video card, monitors, HDs... It's the choice of > > motherboard & memory bus speed. > > > > My target system is Dual P4, 2 GByte ram, Seagate Cheetah SCSI3 > drives. > > > > What is the current top RDR memory technology? > > What is the current top motherboard chipset, & motherboard brand for such > a system? > > What is the best choice for a PC power supply? (For such a system, the > run of the mil 350 watt just
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
> I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a > Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 > that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's faster, but it > seems WAY faster. The problem with comparing earlier cpu's is that the performance characteristics radically change with regard to the latest available CPUs. Another problem is if you are not exactly sure what's in your system, the radical performance change between the Athlon900 & PIII-700 may be due to other advancements in your system, not just the cpu. Like video card, agp speed, memory speed & general motherboard chipset capabilities. Now I am not knocking Athlon here, I'm just saying I mean to get the fastest possible PC for Protel today within a 4-5K$ budget. I have a personal stake in this new PCB & time here will cost me money. I do not whish to wait for Protel at any time. I also do not want sluggish panning when routing the board since I will be manually routing it. I also do not want to buy a system which is a bit slower because of something silly like a cheap motherboard ram controller. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice (514) 624-4003 Fax (514) 624-3631 - Original Message - From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a > Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 > that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's faster, but it > seems WAY faster. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:25 AM > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > > concern. > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I > > have great > > trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you spend a good > > amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking at and the > > advice you receive. > > > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent > > starting resource > > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > > The chipset and motherboard issue have too many variables to > > correctly guess > > which one is the best and is largely determined by your CPU choice(s). > > >From my personal experience, the pros of AMD are mostly seen on game > > oriented platforms, when money is no object. > > I believe the industry made a mistake with RDRAM. Go with the fastest DDR > > available. DDR400, I think. > > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI > > may be just > > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI decision if > > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. > > I bought my power supply from PC Power and Cooling > > www.pcpowerandcooling.com > > Never had any problems even when the power flickered, reset the cable box > > and turned off the TV. I did not have a UPS at home and I know that was > > just plain stupid, but my monitor never even flickered and I kept on > > working. I have had one person tell me afterwards that PC Power > > and Cooling > > is just a reseller. I have not verified this. > > > > I am excited for you... > > I got my first big board near the end of last year. An 18-layer > > OC192 card > > with the major components being 22 BGA's from 676 pins to 272 > > pins, 12 QFP's > > from 100 to 32 pins, and a large multiple power supply section. > > It had diff > > pairs, matched lengths, clock lines and controlled impedances. The entire > > board was hand routed on my then new machine here at home, and a 420 > > Precision Dell that I was upgraded to at my work. The beautiful part was > > the majority of the board was in four mostly repeatable sections. > > This 24" > > x 8" card is still the most enjoyable project I have encountered to date. > > > > My employer and I have had mostly good experiences with Dell support. The > > bad experiences were only when we tried to use e-mail correspondence to > > solve an issue. > > > > Good luck to you. > > > > Cheers! > > Drew > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Brian Guralnick"
Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern.
I tend to agree with most of what you said except for AMD. I have a Athlon900 sytem here and it seems to "blow away the doors" of a PIII-700 that is also here for general purpose use. Yes I know it's faster, but it seems WAY faster. > -Original Message- > From: Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:25 AM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a > concern. > > > > Brian, > > This is a great topic, especially when money is not a concern. I > have great > trust with the opinions of this group, but make sure that you spend a good > amount of time researching the stats of what you are looking at and the > advice you receive. > > Tom's Hardware Guide www.tomshardware.com is an excellent > starting resource > for everything, other than entering key words in a search engine. > The chipset and motherboard issue have too many variables to > correctly guess > which one is the best and is largely determined by your CPU choice(s). > >From my personal experience, the pros of AMD are mostly seen on game > oriented platforms, when money is no object. > I believe the industry made a mistake with RDRAM. Go with the fastest DDR > available. DDR400, I think. > With IDE RAID and the RPM's higher end IDE HD's are now at, SCSI > may be just > an added complication to the system. I would re-think a SCSI decision if > that decision is based on speed and/or RAID. > I bought my power supply from PC Power and Cooling > www.pcpowerandcooling.com > Never had any problems even when the power flickered, reset the cable box > and turned off the TV. I did not have a UPS at home and I know that was > just plain stupid, but my monitor never even flickered and I kept on > working. I have had one person tell me afterwards that PC Power > and Cooling > is just a reseller. I have not verified this. > > I am excited for you... > I got my first big board near the end of last year. An 18-layer > OC192 card > with the major components being 22 BGA's from 676 pins to 272 > pins, 12 QFP's > from 100 to 32 pins, and a large multiple power supply section. > It had diff > pairs, matched lengths, clock lines and controlled impedances. The entire > board was hand routed on my then new machine here at home, and a 420 > Precision Dell that I was upgraded to at my work. The beautiful part was > the majority of the board was in four mostly repeatable sections. > This 24" > x 8" card is still the most enjoyable project I have encountered to date. > > My employer and I have had mostly good experiences with Dell support. The > bad experiences were only when we tried to use e-mail correspondence to > solve an issue. > > Good luck to you. > > Cheers! > Drew > > > - Original Message - > From: "Brian Guralnick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 3:35 PM > Subject: [PEDA] Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern. > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I just got my first mega-huge contract for PCB design with > Protel. We > are talking 8 x 1020 FBGAs + 4 x 1024 bit DDR sdram > > sections + a whole lot of other stuff. > > > > Price of system is not a concern. I have no problem in choosing OS, > video card, monitors, HDs... It's the choice of > > motherboard & memory bus speed. > > > > My target system is Dual P4, 2 GByte ram, Seagate Cheetah SCSI3 > drives. > > > > What is the current top RDR memory technology? > > What is the current top motherboard chipset, & motherboard > brand for such > a system? > > What is the best choice for a PC power supply? (For such a system, the > run of the mil 350 watt just isn't good enough, especially > > when you consider the price of the whole thin, I'd rather got with the > Cadillac of power supplies.) > > > > Thanks, > > > > Brian Guralnick > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Voice (514) 624-4003 > > Fax (514) 624-3631 > > > > > > > > > > * Tracking #: EF8406847C44974E9EEC81ACB3A2B87673DA95A3 > > * > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
