[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 5/07/20 8:30 am, MRAB wrote: On 2020-07-04 21:07, Martin Dengler wrote: How do you spell "regionalism"? As far as I'm aware, there's only one way to spell it, I suppose there could be some planet where it's spelled "regionalizm". -- Greg ___

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 2020-07-04 21:07, Martin Dengler wrote: On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:51:04PM +0100, MRAB wrote: >I'd also add: Try to avoid regionalisms; aim for a >broadly "international" form of the language. Some How do you spell "regionalism"? Martin PS: Irony intended As far as I'm aware, there's

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:51:04PM +0100, MRAB wrote: I'd also add: Try to avoid regionalisms; aim for a broadly "international" form of the language. Some How do you spell "regionalism"? Martin PS: Irony intended ___ Python-Dev mailing list --

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 2020-07-04 16:23, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: @Inada-sama: For RFC conformance to S, see footnote [3] at the end. MRAB writes: > If you believe you have something important to say, then at least > say it clearly. Indeed -- that commit log is an example of the kind of writing the

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

@Inada-sama: For RFC conformance to S, see footnote [3] at the end. MRAB writes: > If you believe you have something important to say, then at least > say it clearly. Indeed -- that commit log is an example of the kind of writing the reference to Strunk & White was intended to reduce;

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 2020-07-02 22:17, Jeff Allen wrote: On 01/07/2020 21:01, Ethan Furman wrote: A not-great article, White Fears of Dispossession: Dreyer's English, The Elements of Style,and the Racial Mapping of English Discourse, here:

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 01/07/2020 21:01, Ethan Furman wrote: A not-great article, White Fears of Dispossession: Dreyer's English, The Elements of Style,and the Racial Mapping of English Discourse, here: http://radicalteacher.library.pitt.edu/ojs/radicalteacher/issue/view/19/25 Thanks for posting this. (What

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 06/29/2020 06:21 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an Ivy league education". I believe the issue is writing, not talking. There's nothing wrong with being

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 06/30/2020 07:07 AM, Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:16 PM Thomas Wouters wrote: Please report all CoC violations to the CoC WG. Please don't. As far as I'm concerned, me and Thomas are fine. Also, as I said, I don't like CoCs nor appealing to them. This is a public

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 30/06/2020 13:58, Thomas Wouters wrote: I wasn't speaking for the PSF or the Steering Council, I'm afraid as politicians around the world discover on a daily basis, it doesn't work that way. Particularly on political matters such as this, you do speak as a Steering Council member and PSF

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:16 PM Thomas Wouters wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> >> It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected >> to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the >> entire PSF

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 8:39 AM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected to > the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the entire > PSF board. > That seems silly. Of course Thomas doesn't speak for the Board here, and

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected > to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the > entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this: > > "It's gonna happen again and again, until

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this: "It's gonna happen again and again, until everybody gets in line, shuts up or leaves due to exhaustion." and

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:53 AM Thomas Wouters wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: >> >> This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been >> going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation >> of the Python

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

I tend to keep out of these types of discussions because they have a tendency to be rather polarizing, and when introduced in an unrelated environment (such as python-ideas or python-dev), tend to do nothing other than set people against each other. But, after the above message, I feel obligated

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 6/30/2020 5:52 AM, Thomas Wouters wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' > wrote: > > This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been > going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 11:52:52 +0200 Thomas Wouters wrote: > > I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad > Python ever took any of your patches. Really? You know, I don't care (and few people probably care) what you think personally of other core developers. But

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 30/06/2020 10:52, Thomas Wouters wrote: I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while objecting to the wording in a commit message. Especially considering the commit message isn't nearly as visible as the places that people have actually been fixing things like

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been > going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation > of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on > here.

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 29/06/2020 21:40, Antoine Pitrou wrote: IMHO, the fact that the "Strunk & White standard" is not known by everybody (it's certainly not by me) was enough of a reason to remove that wording and replace it with a clearer phrasing. Or perhaps to amplify on why something like S is a good guide

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here. Ah... How about you drop the condescending tone, Nathaniel? You certainly can make your point without attacking your fellow contributors. > But using a thread on >

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer compileralchemy | blog github Mauritius On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:34 PM Rhodri James wrote: > On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 12:43:18 +0100 Rhodri James wrote: > On 29/06/2020 11:31, Steve Holden wrote: > > If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these > > waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find > > distasteful or offensive. I do not

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Can we simply revise the commit message to something neutral like "Removed specific reference to Strunk and White in favor of generic urge for language clarity." That's all the change actually was; there's no need for the other debate or broad political background. On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:28

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

To bring this thread back to encouraging diversity, I must point out that diverse English dialects are not all there is to diversity, folks. Nathaniel Smith writes: > In particular, it emphasizes that the new text is accomplishing > "the same goal", "maintaining the original intent", That

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread. I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more. Since the PSF has seen fit to make a political statement (re Black Lives

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Hi all, as a moderator of python-ideas, I’ve asked postmaster to place python-ideas into emergency moderation. (I do not have the tools to do so myself.) I’m willing to review messages individually as needed. best, —titus > On Jun 29, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > wrote: > >

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread. It opens the gap for people who are not concerned about development jump in the game shifting the focus away while nurturing a culture of thrash I mean you tend to ignore

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

The commit message is simply silly. It introduces numerous contentious and false claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with the small wording change. It misunderstands how language, culture, history, and indeed white supremacism, work. I would recommend amending the commit message. The

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be significant differences between what I posted here versus in the commit message. Sorry for any confusion around that! Thank you for putting them both in one place here - that is helpful. Take care, Keara On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 16:12 Paul Sokolovsky wrote:

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden wrote: > > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the > change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the > documentation clear and concise. Use

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 29/06/2020 15:02, Paul Sokolovsky wrote: Hello, On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here. [snippety snip] I'm not going to try to educate you Dude, you totally aren't going to. So please leave your

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:21 PM Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard > English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an > Ivy league education". > You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here. > I

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Hello, On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:04 AM Paul Sokolovsky > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300 > > "Jim F.Hilliard" wrote: > > > > > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is > > >

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:04 AM Paul Sokolovsky wrote: > > Hello, > > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300 > "Jim F.Hilliard" wrote: > > > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & > > White connected with white supremacy? > > I wouldn't be surprised if the only

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Paul Sokolovsky wrote: > > I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word > "white". > > I would be *very* surprised. This seems very foreign to me as a European. ___ Python-Dev mailing list --

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Hello, On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300 "Jim F.Hilliard" wrote: > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & > White connected with white supremacy? I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word "white". > > Scanning through this

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 6/29/20 7:35 AM, Jim F.Hilliard wrote: > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & > White connected with white supremacy? > > Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick > google search, I wasn't able to find something tangible.  > > > Best

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 29/06/2020 11:31, Steve Holden wrote: If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find distasteful or offensive. I do not necessarily require my opinions to be thought reasonable, even by

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & White connected with white supremacy? Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick google search, I wasn't able to find something tangible. Best Regards, Jim Fasarakis Hilliard

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > and describes the > old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the > problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone > intentionally keeping it there. I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Thank you. I understand the need for tolerance in such matters since opinions vary, and merely wished to voice my own. If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find distasteful or offensive. I

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden wrote: > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the > change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the > documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly > regrettable, since it

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

It's broadly accepted among professional writers that the language used should be acceptable and comprehensible to the audience. This seems uncontentious. Posting a straightforward change representing a relaxation of standards (which were not in any case being enforced) should also be

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

Hello, Shouldn't such feedback be also cross-posted to the python-dev mailing list? Also note the original pull request, https://github.com/python/peps/pull/1470, and differences of what was written in the pull request description and what went in the commit message. On Sun, 28 Jun 2020