[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-30 Thread Greg Ewing
On 29/06/20 8:47 am, Daniel Moisset wrote:  . You seem to be trying to shoehorn all Python data structures into looking like alebraic types, for the sole purpose of being able to claim that PEP 622 is

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-30 Thread Emily Bowman
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:41 PM Raymond Hettinger < raymond.hettin...@gmail.com> wrote: > Perhaps you don't want to believe the results, but the timings are > careful, stable, repeatable, and backed-up by a disassembly that shows the > exact cause. The builds used for the timings were the

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:53 AM Thomas Wouters wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: >> >> This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been >> going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation >> of the Python

[Python-Dev] Re: Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-30 Thread Thomas Wouters
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:56 PM Tim Peters wrote: > [Ernest W. Durbin III ] > > Reviewing, I may have misinterpreted the message from PSF Executive > > Director regarding the situation. > > > > It does appear that python-ideas moderators contacted postmaster@. > > Appears I misread a message

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 23:31:31 -0700 Emily Bowman wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:41 PM Raymond Hettinger < > raymond.hettin...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Perhaps you don't want to believe the results, but the timings are > > careful, stable, repeatable, and backed-up by a disassembly that shows

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Thomas Wouters
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been > going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation > of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on > here.

[Python-Dev] Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Ethan Furman
On 06/29/2020 08:13 AM, Keara Berlin wrote: Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be significant differences between what I posted here versus in the commit message. Sorry for any confusion around that! Thank you for putting them both in one place here - that is helpful. To be clear, the

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 11:52:52 +0200 Thomas Wouters wrote: > > I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad > Python ever took any of your patches. Really? You know, I don't care (and few people probably care) what you think personally of other core developers. But

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 10:52, Thomas Wouters wrote: I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while objecting to the wording in a commit message. Especially considering the commit message isn't nearly as visible as the places that people have actually been fixing things like

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Kyle Stanley
I tend to keep out of these types of discussions because they have a tendency to be rather polarizing, and when introduced in an unrelated environment (such as python-ideas or python-dev), tend to do nothing other than set people against each other. But, after the above message, I feel obligated

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 29/06/2020 21:40, Antoine Pitrou wrote: IMHO, the fact that the "Strunk & White standard" is not known by everybody (it's certainly not by me) was enough of a reason to remove that wording and replace it with a clearer phrasing. Or perhaps to amplify on why something like S is a good guide

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Edwin Zimmerman
On 6/30/2020 5:52 AM, Thomas Wouters wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' > wrote: > > This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been > going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Łukasz Langa
> On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:44, Ethan Furman wrote: > > Of course I don't know if Keara or Guido knew any of this, but it certainly > feels to me that the commit message is ostracizing an entire family line > because they had the misfortune to have the wrong last name. In fact, it > seems like

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 29.06.2020 11:57, Victor Stinner wrote: > Le dim. 28 juin 2020 à 11:22, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit : >> as you may remember, I wasn't happy with the deprecations of the >> APIs in PEP 393, since there are no C API alternatives for >> the encoding APIs deprecated in the PEP, which allow direct >>

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread Emily Bowman
I completely agree with this, that UTF-8 has become the One True Encoding(tm), and UCS-2 and UTF-16 are hardly found anywhere outside of the Win32 API. Nearly all basic emoji can't be represented in UCS-2 wchar_t, let alone composite emoji. So how to make that C-compatible? Make everything a

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Piper Thunstrom
> The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the current > text was racist in any way; then we find out that, apparently, we've been > harboring white supremacist ideals by prescribing when to use apostrophes and > commas? That commit message (not the commit itself) took

[Python-Dev] Re: Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-30 Thread Tim Peters
[Ernest W. Durbin III ] >>> Reviewing, I may have misinterpreted the message from PSF Executive >>> Director regarding the situation. >>> >>> It does appear that python-ideas moderators contacted postmaster@. >>> Appears I misread a message saying “it looks like it’s happening on >>> python-dev

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 13:43, Emily Bowman wrote: I completely agree with this, that UTF-8 has become the One True Encoding(tm), and UCS-2 and UTF-16 are hardly found anywhere outside of the Win32 API. Nearly all basic emoji can't be represented in UCS-2 wchar_t, let alone composite emoji. You say that

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Steven D'Aprano
It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this: "It's gonna happen again and again, until everybody gets in line, shuts up or leaves due to exhaustion." and

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread Victor Stinner
Le mar. 30 juin 2020 à 13:53, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit : > > I would prefer to analyze the list on a case by case basis. I don't > > think that it's useful to expose every single encoding supported by > > Python as a C function. > > (...) > This does not mean we have to give up the symmetry in the C

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread Richard Damon
On 6/30/20 8:43 AM, Emily Bowman wrote: > I completely agree with this, that UTF-8 has become the One True > Encoding(tm), and UCS-2 and UTF-16 are hardly found anywhere outside > of the Win32 API. Nearly all basic emoji can't be represented in UCS-2 > wchar_t, let alone composite emoji. > > So

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Ethan Furman
On 06/30/2020 05:03 AM, Łukasz Langa wrote: On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:44, Ethan Furman mailto:et...@stoneleaf.us>> wrote: Of course I don't know if Keara or Guido knew any of this, but it certainly feels to me that the commit message is ostracizing an entire family line because they had the

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Stéfane Fermigier
I didn't want to participate in this discussion, but I will, probably for the following reasons: - I'm French - I bought a copy of Strunk & White during my first trip to the US, in 1990, in a desperate attempt to improve my english writing style. - I can't say it changed my life, but I found the

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Charalampos Stratakis
- Original Message - > From: "Ethan Furman" > To: "Python Development List" > Cc: "Keara Berlin" > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 12:44:33 PM > Subject: [Python-Dev] Recent PEP-8 change > > On 06/29/2020 08:13 AM, Keara Berlin wrote: > > > Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-30 Thread Petr Viktorin
On 2020-06-30 02:46, Victor Stinner wrote: You missed the point of the PEP: "It becomes possible to experiment with more advanced optimizations in CPython than just micro-optimizations, like tagged pointers." I don't think experiments are a good motivation. When the C API is broken, everyone

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Kyle Stanley
> Basically, it feels like we were lied to. And if that wasn't bad enough, to see that Guido accepted that vitriolic commit message and merged it in ... it makes me embarrassed to be a Python supporter. Only Guido could attest to this, but as someone who spoke in support of the change, I

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread David Mertz
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 8:39 AM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected to > the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the entire > PSF board. > That seems silly. Of course Thomas doesn't speak for the Board here, and

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:16 PM Thomas Wouters wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> >> It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected >> to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the >> entire PSF

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread Richard Damon
On 6/30/20 7:53 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Since the C world has adopted wchar_t for this purpose, it's the > natural choice. I would disagree with this comment. Microsoft Windows has chosen to use 'wchar_t' for Unicode, because they adopted UCS-2 before it morphed into UTF-16 due to the

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 13:16, Richard Damon wrote: On 6/30/20 7:53 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: Since the C world has adopted wchar_t for this purpose, it's the natural choice. I would disagree with this comment. Microsoft Windows has chosen to use 'wchar_t' for Unicode, because they adopted UCS-2 before

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Thomas Wouters
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected > to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the > entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this: > > "It's gonna happen again and again, until

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 13:58, Thomas Wouters wrote: I wasn't speaking for the PSF or the Steering Council, I'm afraid as politicians around the world discover on a daily basis, it doesn't work that way. Particularly on political matters such as this, you do speak as a Steering Council member and PSF

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread David Mertz
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:38 AM Piper Thunstrom > The actual advice in The Elements of Style are mostly inoffensive when > taken on their own, and out of context. The problem is that the Elements of > Style (And many works like it) are built on a system of white supremacy. > The grammarian

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Keara Berlin
Thank you, Piper. This is exactly what I meant to say, and a very good explanation. I appreciate your time and energy. On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 09:23 Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the > current text was racist in any way; then we find

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Richard Damon
On 6/30/20 12:18 PM, Jim F.Hilliard wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 17:36 Piper Thunstrom, > wrote:  > > It specifically > was chosen to avoid "lower class" usages and things like AAVE (though > that term would not exist for decades after the movement

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Mark Lawrence
On 30/06/2020 17:42, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hmm, I'm curious: which form of English do you propose Python should standardize on? Regards Antoine. I suggest Geordie or Glaswegian on the grounds that most people outside of the UK have probably never heard of them hence they should be

[Python-Dev] Re: Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-30 Thread Ernest W. Durbin III
On June 30, 2020 at 11:05:06 AM, Tim Peters (tim.pet...@gmail.com) wrote: [Thomas Wouters ]  > Just to clarify: this had nothing to do with the PSF, but with the  > Steering Council  My understanding is that the "PSF Executive Director" Ernest cited has  nothing to do with the Steering Council,

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Piper Thunstrom
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > No we don't. Who are you to tell others what they should be aware of > or what they should fight for? And why should I join your battle that > I don't even agree with? Most of us probably had no idea what Elements > of Style was before

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 18:02, Mark Lawrence wrote: I suggest Geordie or Glaswegian on the grounds that most people outside of the UK have probably never heard of them hence they should be regarded as neutral in any world wide debate on English. Possibly not. I do recall an occasion when a Glaswegian

[Python-Dev] [RELEASE] Python 3.8.4rc1 is now ready for testing

2020-06-30 Thread Łukasz Langa
Python 3.8.4rc1 is the release candidate of the fourth maintenance release of Python 3.8. Go get it here: https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-384rc1/ Assuming no critical problems are found prior to 2020-07-13, the scheduled

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Alan G. Isaac
Which people in the Python community are entitled to say that they find a commit message to be offensive and have that claim treated seriously, compassionately, and as a good reason for accommodative action? Under what circumstances is the appropriate response of the community a dismissive "you

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
Mmm. Well, we said what we had to say. I think we both agree there's no point in continuing. ;-) Cheers. On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > > No we don't. Who are you to tell others what they should be aware of

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 16:54, Piper Thunstrom wrote: I do not. We must, as a community, examine our prejudices and aim to be welcoming or we're going to see a split in Python much worse than Py2 -> Py3. Curiously I am yet to see any acknowledgement that the change itself may be detrimental to

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Jim F.Hilliard
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 17:36 Piper Thunstrom, wrote: It specifically > was chosen to avoid "lower class" usages and things like AAVE (though > that term would not exist for decades after the movement reached a > furor). I mean, surely not only did it exclude "lower class" terms and AAVE (African

[Python-Dev] Please refrain from posting on the PEP 8 threads for 24 hours

2020-06-30 Thread Brett Cannon
Regardless of what side you fall on, I think we can agree that emotions are running very high at the moment. Nothing is going to change in at least the next 24 hours, so I am personally asking folks to step back for at least that long and think about: 1. Is what you want to say going to

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:39 PM Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > > The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the current > > text was racist in any way; then we find out that, apparently, we've been > > harboring white supremacist ideals by prescribing when to use apostrophes >

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
> The grammarian movement, in general, was built on elevating a very specific > form of English over others. Hmm, I'm curious: which form of English do you propose Python should standardize on? I agree that for code comments it may not matter much, but it probably does for documentation. There

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Rhodri James
On 30/06/2020 17:48, Alan G. Isaac wrote: Which people in the Python community are entitled to say that they find a commit message to be offensive and have that claim treated seriously, compassionately, and as a good reason for accommodative action? Anyone, for any reason. IMHO, obviously.

[Python-Dev] Re: Please refrain from posting on the PEP 8 threads for 24 hours

2020-06-30 Thread Tim Peters
[Brett Cannon wrote:] > Regardless of what side you fall on, I think we can agree that > emotions are running very high at the moment. Nothing is going > to change in at least the next 24 hours, so I am personally > asking folks to step back for at least that long and think about: > > Is what you

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Matt White
I am imagining the pain and hurt these conversations will cause for people who are not as well positioned and not as comfortable in the community. Just want to throw out a counterpoint to the imagined people - as a real person who is not well positioned or comfortable in the community.

[Python-Dev] Re: Please refrain from posting on the PEP 8 threads for 24 hours

2020-06-30 Thread Tim Peters
[Victor Stinner ] > If someone continues to feed the PEP 8 discussion, would it be > possible to change their account to require moderation for 1 day or > maybe even up to 1 week? I know that Mailman 3 makes it possible. I see no such capability. I could, for example, manually fiddle things so

[Python-Dev] Re: Please refrain from posting on the PEP 8 threads for 24 hours

2020-06-30 Thread Victor Stinner
If someone continues to feed the PEP 8 discussion, would it be possible to change their account to require moderation for 1 day or maybe even up to 1 week? I know that Mailman 3 makes it possible. Victor Le mar. 30 juin 2020 à 19:46, Tim Peters a écrit : > > [Brett Cannon wrote:] > >

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-30 Thread Inada Naoki
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:45 AM Raymond Hettinger wrote: > > > > Converting macros to static inline functions should only impact very few > > C extensions which use macros in unusual ways. > > These should be individually verified to make sure they actually get inlined > by the compiler. In

[Python-Dev] Re: Please refrain from posting on the PEP 8 threads for 24 hours

2020-06-30 Thread Richard Damon
On 6/30/20 4:32 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > [Victor Stinner ] >> If someone continues to feed the PEP 8 discussion, would it be >> possible to change their account to require moderation for 1 day or >> maybe even up to 1 week? I know that Mailman 3 makes it possible. > I see no such capability. I

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 2:34 AM Greg Ewing wrote: > > Sorry for fanning the flames, but this whole thread is so over > the top I'm finding it kind of entertaining. > > On 1/07/20 2:23 am, Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > The grammarian movement, in general, was built on > > elevating a very specific

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-30 Thread Daniel Moisset
Hi, thank you for the comments On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 07:18, Greg Ewing wrote: > On 29/06/20 8:47 am, Daniel Moisset wrote: > > < > https://github.com/dmoisset/notebook/blob/811bf66/python/pep622/understanding-pep-622.md> > . > > > You seem to be trying to shoehorn all Python data structures

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

2020-06-30 Thread Greg Ewing
Sorry for fanning the flames, but this whole thread is so over the top I'm finding it kind of entertaining. On 1/07/20 2:23 am, Piper Thunstrom wrote: The grammarian movement, in general, was built on elevating a very specific form of English over others. It specifically was chosen to avoid

[Python-Dev] Stable ABI question.

2020-06-30 Thread Inada Naoki
Hi, folks. I found PyEval_AcquireLock and PyEval_ReleaseLock are deprecated since Python 3.2. But the same time, stable ABI is defined in Python 3.2 too. The deprecated APIs are stable ABI too because `ceval.h` is not excluded from the stable ABI PEP. As far as my understanding, we can not

[Python-Dev] PEP 622 pattern matching syntax

2020-06-30 Thread i.r.galahad
Hello Python Devs, For some time I've been hoping to be able to use pattern matching in Python, so PEP 622 is an exciting proposition. I do have some concerns, mostly about the syntax, because it doesn't currently match the style the rest of Python seems to lay out. The thing I'd most suggest