subject:"Re\: \[qubes\-users\] What happened to domain manager in 4\?"

I installed my new drive on my laptop and put 3.2 on there and just updated the 
kernels and fixed so it would boot properly. Alot more time consuming and now 
working out the minor fixes. 

All in all its still a pain that first i found the kernel was too old for 3.2 
to be installed so i switched to 4 and then find out that the feature i need 
was missing and back to 3.2 to get that working. 

For all the new computers I setup I assume I'll have the same issue. In no way 
would I ever consider 4 stripped in its condition even usuable in beta becuase 
of my needs. 

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread js...@riseup.net

mikihonz...@gmail.com:
>> Of course, if people want a GUI manager they can produce one - equally
>> people who don't want one can use command line tools or scripts to
>> provide the functionality they want.
>>
> That's the point. Since I cannot write one myself, I stopped using qubes 
> because my use case depends on it. Some users may only ever use firefox and 
> nothing else, they wouldn't mind stripping every other (cli)tool from qubes. 
> I see no point in making up lowest possible denominators of useability.
> Qubes has a unique architecure of integrating virtual machines. If there are 
> no proper tools to make it possible for a user to adjust this system to his 
> specific use case withouth the need to write a program, some people may stop 
> using it (also last I checked there wasn't a proper documentation on the new 
> commands). I don't think that's good or bad and maybe I'm the only one who's 
> going back to a different OS.
> 
> regards
> Loved 3.2 A truly great software.

Keep in mind that 4.0 is still basically in beta and hasn't actually
been released yet (someone else pointed out that it's a "release
candidate" and not beta, and there's a difference, but still). 3.2 is
still the latest stable release. I still use 3.2, and it works great for
me. 3.2 should still be an option for you if the lack of qubes manager
in 4.0 is a show stopper. Unless there's some reason you can't use 3.2?

Anyway, I'm just hoping people don't move away from qubes completely
just because the unreleased beta version is missing a useful feature.
Qubes is a lot less vulnerable than other OSes. It works great for me in
general and I think it's definitely worth a few minor inconveniences.

I will add my vote in favor of the qubes manager though btw. I know
everything qubes manager can do can also be done in command line, and
I'm comfortable enough with the command line that I can make it work,
but it would be less convenient for me to have to do without qubes
manager, despite its flaws!

-Jackie

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 14:17:52 CET Franz wrote:
> > On another note what would it take ($$$) for someone to create this back
> > on 4 as an option for the community (obviously theres quite a few of us)
> > that want this to install?
> > 
> > Im not rich by any means living in one bedroom apt and work from home
> > but
> > this does help me with work and would donate towards getting this done.
> 
> that is an interesting approach, developers can make programs, but
> non-developers can pay for others to do it. I offer $5000.

Hi guys,

I've investigated the possibilities today about how this can be done from a 
purely technical point of view.

It seems possible, and to test this I am writing a very simple app that 
retrieves the current Qubes and their status from the central qubes system.
Just as a proof-of-concept.

Looks promising so far!
-- 
Tom Zander
Blog: https://zander.github.io
Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread Elias Mårtenson

On 8 December 2017 at 00:16, Unman  wrote:


> Backup/restore is already on the target list.
> What doesnt seem to be at the moment is the ability to show all qubes,
> and how they are connected, and what their status is. That's a nice
> target.
>

If by "status" you include the update state, then that would make the new
solution on par with the old VM manager, yes?

Regards,
Elias

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread Unman

On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 08:06:49AM -0800, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> Ok well talking about 2 features when theres more then 2 features that users 
> prefer. 
> 
> Backups and restoring backups should be a definite. 
> 
> When dealing with net VMs the ability to watch which VM is attached to which 
> netvm and what is running properly and didnt shutdown. Same features as even 
> virtualbox uses. 
> 

Backup/restore is already on the target list.
What doesnt seem to be at the moment is the ability to show all qubes,
and how they are connected, and what their status is. That's a nice
target.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

Ok well talking about 2 features when theres more then 2 features that users 
prefer. 

Backups and restoring backups should be a definite. 

When dealing with net VMs the ability to watch which VM is attached to which 
netvm and what is running properly and didnt shutdown. Same features as even 
virtualbox uses. 

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread Unman

On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 07:46:31AM -0800, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> The manager isnt a distraction. You dont need to focus on it if you choose 
> not too. Your needs are very basic showing peoples emails. For those of us 
> that use it for work and get others we work with to use it also it is 
> important. 
> 
> Clearly plenty others here prefer the manager and you keep reiterating why it 
> isnt important to you and teaching people to use email securely. 
> 

I think that you replied a little hastily, and didn't get as far as my last 
paragraph. 
I'll say it again:

Will this suit everyone? Of course not - it doesn't suit me. It certainly
wont suit many of the people in this thread. If this is any guide then
many current users seem to want something in 4.0
For that reason I think it's worthwhile spending some time on
reinstating something like the old Manager in 4.0. I've started on this
focussing on the "display" side of the current Manager, rather than the
function side that some people seem to want to enhance. Let's see how we
get on.

I think that the Manager (and the Menu system) focusses too much
attention on the HOW of Qubes, both in 3.2 and 4. But other people dont
share this view, and want to have something like the old Manager. As
Marek has said they would consider including something like that in 4.0,
it's worth seeing what can be done. That is one reason why I asked
which 2 features should be retained - only a few people have actually answered
that question, as far as I can see.

unman

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

Additionally I would rather donate money to devs that can work on what i need 
added back on here as a priority rather than donate to the project itself that 
doesnt see these things as a priority. 

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

The manager isnt a distraction. You dont need to focus on it if you choose not 
too. Your needs are very basic showing peoples emails. For those of us that use 
it for work and get others we work with to use it also it is important. 

Clearly plenty others here prefer the manager and you keep reiterating why it 
isnt important to you and teaching people to use email securely. 

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread Unman

On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 01:29:32AM -0300, Franz wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Unman  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 05:13:56PM +0100, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users
> > wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote:
> > > > "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
> > > > What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
> > > >
> > > > I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's
> > wrong
> > > > with it.
> > >
> > > To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it
> > > would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in 4.0
> > >
> >
> > Tom, this is simply not true.
> > If you look at issue #2132 you will see that it was a deliberate design
> > principle. It has nothing to do with the architecture changes and
> > everything to do with simplifying the UX.
> >
> > I have to say that most of the users I have helped to work with Qubes
> > (most unfamiliar to Linux and certainly unused to the command line),
> > simply DO NOT USE the manager.
> >
> 
> Well that proves nothing. If you do not much use the manager and are
> teaching people to use Qubes, then you tend to teach to follow the way you
> do things and your followers will just do that.
> 
> On the contrary I am using the manager for everything also for starting
> applications and when I teach Qubes teach it this way and it is learned
> this way, so that loosing the manager means loosing all references to be
> able to use Qubes.

Franz,

I choose not to use the manager. But, as I've said before, my
requirements are probably very different from most users. For various
reasons, I don't listen to music/play games/ use YouTube/ etc etc - most
of the stuff I do is in a terminal. Even people who like me think this is
weird.

But the people I help use their computers in very different ways from
that.
I don't teach them not to use the manager, I show them how to use Qubes
without the manager - some of them find it for themselves, and like it
- some don't.

Here are some things these users DONT want to do:
Start a qube
Stop a qube
Start a disposableVM
Look in the manager to see if there are updates.

Here are some of the things they want to do:
Read their emails.
Go online in a secure way.
Browse without risking their emails/bank accounts
Open a web browser that wont keep history/cant compromise their private
stuff.
Look at pictures from phones/ downloads as safely as possible.
Keep their system updated.

Do you see what I mean? For many users the HOW of Qubes is completely
irrelevant, and because the Manager focusses on that it's a distraction.
The default Menu system has the same problem - it draws attention to the
qubes, not the activities.
So by providing a simple menu system, a few templates and some minor
configuration you can have a workable system that almost anyone can use
without knowing anything about the Qubes infrastructure, and without
need for the Manager.

Will this suit everyone? Of course not - it doesn't suit me. It certainly
wont suit many of the people in this thread. If this is any guide then
many current users seem to want something in 4.0
For that reason I think it's worthwhile spending some time on
reinstating something like the old Manager in 4.0. I've started on this
focussing on the "display" side of the current Manager, rather than the
function side that some people seem to want to enhance. Let's see how we
get on.

unman

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread Franz

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:29 AM,  wrote:

> On another note what would it take ($$$) for someone to create this back
> on 4 as an option for the community (obviously theres quite a few of us)
> that want this to install?
>
> Im not rich by any means living in one bedroom apt and work from home but
> this does help me with work and would donate towards getting this done.
>
>
that is an interesting approach, developers can make programs, but
non-developers can pay for others to do it. I offer $5000.
Fran

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On another note what would it take ($$$) for someone to create this back on 4 
as an option for the community (obviously theres quite a few of us) that want 
this to install? 

Im not rich by any means living in one bedroom apt and work from home but this 
does help me with work and would donate towards getting this done. 

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

3.2 also doesnt have current drivers updated for new equipment. I couldn't get 
3.2 installed on my new setup but 4 installed. 

Saying its supported doesnt say much if cant handle new equipment and just old 
machines. 

I save alot of time using qubes as I need to deploy VMs all the time for 
clients. But not having an interface to monitor means 4 is useless to me.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-07 Thread Zrubi

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 12/07/2017 04:56 AM, mikihonz...@gmail.com wrote:

> I stopped using qubes because my use case depends on it.

> Loved 3.2 A truly great software.

3.2 is the STABLE version of Qubes.
And it will be supported for a full year AFTER the 4.0 release.

So there is no point to bury it because of a missing feature in the
latest release candidate...

Saying it while I'm also think that removing the Qubes Manager was a
big mistake. Thant new thing in the info bar is buggy and useless in
my use case too.

- --
Zrubi
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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On 7 December 2017 at 12:57, Chris Laprise  wrote:

> I myself find it strange and frustrating using Qubes VMs without the
> visual reminders for the templates they're based on, updates, last backup
> date, etc. If I need to see the template for a VM, going into VM settings
> feels like cognitive dissonance.
>
> Qubes might benefit from focusing the UI on a Qubes Manager-like
> interface, even to the point where guest apps are launched from it. Why
> shoehorm the new paradigm into existing DE tools? That will not get you the
> attention of the DE projects or potential userbase.

I don't think anybody disagrees with you. No one in this thread has said
that they don't want to see
a new management UI. And I do believe that even the devteam agrees with
this. That suggests that
if someone puts something together there is a high chance that it could be
included in Qubes
proper.

I have said that I would like to do the work, but there are factors that
make it impossible for
me to invest any time into it at this time. The surely must be others who
are willing to put
in the time to do it?

There are certainly enough people complaining about it that there should be
at least some
people able to scratch that itch.

If you're not capable of doing the work, I understand it can be frustrating
to see no progress being
done on aspects of the system that you feel is important, but do keep in
mind that the devteam
are resource-constrained and they have to follow their own priorities.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread Chris Laprise

On 12/06/2017 11:29 PM, Franz wrote:

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Unman > wrote:

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 05:13:56PM +0100, 'Tom Zander' via
qubes-users wrote:
> On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote:
> > "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly
designed?
> > What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
> >
> > I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for
what's wrong
> > with it.
>
> To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be
that it
> would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture
changes in 4.0
>

Tom, this is simply not true.
If you look at issue #2132 you will see that it was a deliberate
design
principle. It has nothing to do with the architecture changes and
everything to do with simplifying the UX.

I have to say that most of the users I have helped to work with Qubes
(most unfamiliar to Linux and certainly unused to the command line),
simply DO NOT USE the manager.

Well that proves nothing. If you do not much use the manager and are 
teaching people to use Qubes, then you tend to teach to follow the way 
you do things and your followers will just do that.

On the contrary I am using the manager for everything also for 
starting applications and when I teach Qubes teach it this way and it 
is learned this way, so that loosing the manager means loosing all 
references to be able to use Qubes.

I myself find it strange and frustrating using Qubes VMs without the 
visual reminders for the templates they're based on, updates, last 
backup date, etc. If I need to see the template for a VM, going into VM 
settings feels like cognitive dissonance.

Qubes might benefit from focusing the UI on a Qubes Manager-like 
interface, even to the point where guest apps are launched from it. Why 
shoehorm the new paradigm into existing DE tools? That will not get you 
the attention of the DE projects or potential userbase.

--

Chris Laprise, tas...@posteo.net
https://github.com/tasket
https://twitter.com/ttaskett
PGP: BEE2 20C5 356E 764A 73EB  4AB3 1DC4 D106 F07F 1886

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread mikihonzero

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 4:14:32 AM UTC, Elias Mårtenson wrote:
> On Thursday, 7 December 2017 11:56:13 UTC+8, mikih...@gmail.com  wrote:
> 
> > I stopped using qubes because my use case depends on it. 
> 
> I'm not going to judge the way you use the software, but I am curious
> as to what kind of use case you have that made the VM manages so important
> that you literally can't use Qubes without it?

It's actually not the sole reason. And I'm glad for everyone who qubes does 
work for.It's a great software. But having the tools providing the means for 
people
to 'make' it work may be a positive thing. 

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread Franz

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Unman  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 05:13:56PM +0100, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users
> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote:
> > > "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
> > > What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
> > >
> > > I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's
> wrong
> > > with it.
> >
> > To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it
> > would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in 4.0
> >
>
> Tom, this is simply not true.
> If you look at issue #2132 you will see that it was a deliberate design
> principle. It has nothing to do with the architecture changes and
> everything to do with simplifying the UX.
>
> I have to say that most of the users I have helped to work with Qubes
> (most unfamiliar to Linux and certainly unused to the command line),
> simply DO NOT USE the manager.
>

Well that proves nothing. If you do not much use the manager and are
teaching people to use Qubes, then you tend to teach to follow the way you
do things and your followers will just do that.

On the contrary I am using the manager for everything also for starting
applications and when I teach Qubes teach it this way and it is learned
this way, so that loosing the manager means loosing all references to be
able to use Qubes.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 11:56:13 UTC+8, mikih...@gmail.com  wrote:

> I stopped using qubes because my use case depends on it. 

I'm not going to judge the way you use the software, but I am curious
as to what kind of use case you have that made the VM manages so important
that you literally can't use Qubes without it?

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread mikihonzero

> Of course, if people want a GUI manager they can produce one - equally
> people who don't want one can use command line tools or scripts to
> provide the functionality they want.
> 
That's the point. Since I cannot write one myself, I stopped using qubes 
because my use case depends on it. Some users may only ever use firefox and 
nothing else, they wouldn't mind stripping every other (cli)tool from qubes. I 
see no point in making up lowest possible denominators of useability.
Qubes has a unique architecure of integrating virtual machines. If there are no 
proper tools to make it possible for a user to adjust this system to his 
specific use case withouth the need to write a program, some people may stop 
using it (also last I checked there wasn't a proper documentation on the new 
commands). I don't think that's good or bad and maybe I'm the only one who's 
going back to a different OS.

regards
Loved 3.2 A truly great software.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 01:00:01AM +, a.mcwh...@yandex.com wrote:
> I will support that point of view.
> Could we please have a choice to stay with the manager or to use 
> console/whatever?
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> On December 6, 2017 10:54:26 PM UTC, Chris Laprise  wrote:
> >On 12/06/2017 10:29 AM, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> >> The manager was the main thing I liked about how it helped show what
> >was going on at any given time. Especially when running mulitple vms
> >attached to different VPNs, Tor, etc..
> >>
> >> Im a visual person and having this made it feel safe and secure to
> >watch what was going on fast and making changes fast. I know of only 2
> >other people that use qubes personally. Both of which when I told them
> >had the same response I did.
> >>
> >> There was no reason to remove it when you could opt to not use it. Or
> >make the gui more appealing but to replace it and claim "advanced users
> >can use the command line", I stand by my original remark. I definitely
> >will not be using 4.
> >
> >I also take this view. Qubes 4.0 shows what can happen when you change 
> >UIs without consulting the community.
> >
> >The devs seem to think that combining status info and functions in the 
> >same window is bad design and/or intimidating to users. Now we have two
> >
> >tiny icons on opposite sides of the screen and the user is starved of 
> >info. I would welcome the return of Qubes Manager.

Marek has made it clear that a rewritten VM Manager might be included as
an alternative, so there isn't TOTAL opposition to this, provided the
manager uses the core API.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 10:41:23PM +0100, Tom Zander wrote:
> On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:28:54 CET Unman wrote:
> > > the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it
> > > would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in
> > > 4.0
> 
> > Tom, this is simply not true.
> > If you look at issue #2132
> 
> That issue actually supports the point, to quote.
> > the next-gen manager for Qubes 4.0 (which we need to rewrite anyway
> > because of the changes in the core-ng)
> 
> But your reply is unnecessarily confrontational, it really doesn't matter 
> what the core devs decide on the GUI front as they also state they have an 
> open API.
> 
> As it turns out people are interested in a different GUI experience than the 
> one outlined in the quoted issue.
> 
> It is good to realize that a better GUI will allow a more secure usage.
> 
> > > * Media-management. Hard drives etc. It just barely works today.
> > 
> > Not my experience. There are occasional issues, but generally this seems
> > to work well
> 
> If you use a larger amount of features, stuff starts to fall apart fast, 
> though.
> For instance I added a second drive, attached it to a VM. Noticed that the 
> only thing that happened was the appearance of a strangely named file in 
> /dev/
> As far as I can tell you need to somehow guess which file to use in /dev and 
> then type a 'mount' command to actually access it. That requires CLI 
> interaction...
> 
> And thats just the most simple usecase I can come up with.
> 
> > BUT basic users generally want little more than to load
> > data from USBs/phones and to backup to disk
> 
> How do you rate usecases like having your homedir (private partition) on a 
> second drive on a desktop computer?
> Extremely common setup on desktops when you end up having many gigabytes 
> in your homedir. A multi-TB spinning disk costs a fraction of an ssd.
> 
> How about the usecase of auto-attaching and auto-mounting several drives on 
> a specific VM startup, every time it starts.
> For instance a read-only (aka CDRom or Loopback) mountpoint in your homedir 
> of firefox settings shared between some of the VMs.
> -- 
> Tom Zander
> Blog: https://zander.github.io
> Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

Hi Tom

I'm sorry if you found my reply confrontational - I was just pointing
out that your assertion was false, and that it was a design decision to
remove the manager in it's 3.2 form.

Of course, if people want a GUI manager they can produce one - equally
people who don't want one can use command line tools or scripts to
provide the functionality they want.

On your "simple usecase" I'm just baffled - in both nautilus and
dolphin, when you attach USB devices to a qube, they appear in the file
manager and can be mounted simply by double clicking the device. No
command line, no looking in /dev (although the location isn't THAT hard
to find). Is this not your experience? 

On the "homedir" on a second drive issue, I've done this for some users.
I've even talked someone through it on the phone. Should there be a GUI
for that? Really?

Don't misunderstand me - I understand that some users are dismayed at
the loss of the manager. I hardly used it, so the loss means nothing to
me. Few of the users I work with use it much, so the loss won't mean
much to them. But some people want something like it in 4, and it's
probably worth spending a little time on it, if only so that folk can
see the state of all their qubes in one window.

unman

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread a . mcwheel

I will support that point of view.
Could we please have a choice to stay with the manager or to use 
console/whatever?
Thank you.


On December 6, 2017 10:54:26 PM UTC, Chris Laprise  wrote:
>On 12/06/2017 10:29 AM, r...@tuta.io wrote:
>> The manager was the main thing I liked about how it helped show what
>was going on at any given time. Especially when running mulitple vms
>attached to different VPNs, Tor, etc..
>>
>> Im a visual person and having this made it feel safe and secure to
>watch what was going on fast and making changes fast. I know of only 2
>other people that use qubes personally. Both of which when I told them
>had the same response I did.
>>
>> There was no reason to remove it when you could opt to not use it. Or
>make the gui more appealing but to replace it and claim "advanced users
>can use the command line", I stand by my original remark. I definitely
>will not be using 4.
>
>I also take this view. Qubes 4.0 shows what can happen when you change 
>UIs without consulting the community.
>
>The devs seem to think that combining status info and functions in the 
>same window is bad design and/or intimidating to users. Now we have two
>
>tiny icons on opposite sides of the screen and the user is starved of 
>info. I would welcome the return of Qubes Manager.
>
>-- 
>
>Chris Laprise, tas...@posteo.net
>https://github.com/tasket
>https://twitter.com/ttaskett
>PGP: BEE2 20C5 356E 764A 73EB  4AB3 1DC4 D106 F07F 1886
>
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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread Chris Laprise

On 12/06/2017 10:29 AM, r...@tuta.io wrote:

The manager was the main thing I liked about how it helped show what was going
on at any given time. Especially when running mulitple vms attached to
different VPNs, Tor, etc..

Im a visual person and having this made it feel safe and secure to watch what
was going on fast and making changes fast. I know of only 2 other people that
use qubes personally. Both of which when I told them had the same response I
did.

There was no reason to remove it when you could opt to not use it. Or make the gui more
appealing but to replace it and claim "advanced users can use the command
line", I stand by my original remark. I definitely will not be using 4.

I also take this view. Qubes 4.0 shows what can happen when you change
UIs without consulting the community.

The devs seem to think that combining status info and functions in the
same window is bad design and/or intimidating to users. Now we have two
tiny icons on opposite sides of the screen and the user is starved of
info. I would welcome the return of Qubes Manager.

Chris Laprise, tas...@posteo.net
https://github.com/tasket
https://twitter.com/ttaskett
PGP: BEE2 20C5 356E 764A 73EB 4AB3 1DC4 D106 F07F 1886

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:28:54 CET Unman wrote:
> > the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it
> > would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in
> > 4.0

> Tom, this is simply not true.
> If you look at issue #2132

That issue actually supports the point, to quote.
> the next-gen manager for Qubes 4.0 (which we need to rewrite anyway
> because of the changes in the core-ng)

But your reply is unnecessarily confrontational, it really doesn't matter 
what the core devs decide on the GUI front as they also state they have an 
open API.

As it turns out people are interested in a different GUI experience than the 
one outlined in the quoted issue.

It is good to realize that a better GUI will allow a more secure usage.

> > * Media-management. Hard drives etc. It just barely works today.
> 
> Not my experience. There are occasional issues, but generally this seems
> to work well

If you use a larger amount of features, stuff starts to fall apart fast, 
though.
For instance I added a second drive, attached it to a VM. Noticed that the 
only thing that happened was the appearance of a strangely named file in 
/dev/
As far as I can tell you need to somehow guess which file to use in /dev and 
then type a 'mount' command to actually access it. That requires CLI 
interaction...

And thats just the most simple usecase I can come up with.

> BUT basic users generally want little more than to load
> data from USBs/phones and to backup to disk

How do you rate usecases like having your homedir (private partition) on a 
second drive on a desktop computer?
Extremely common setup on desktops when you end up having many gigabytes 
in your homedir. A multi-TB spinning disk costs a fraction of an ssd.

How about the usecase of auto-attaching and auto-mounting several drives on 
a specific VM startup, every time it starts.
For instance a read-only (aka CDRom or Loopback) mountpoint in your homedir 
of firefox settings shared between some of the VMs.
-- 
Tom Zander
Blog: https://zander.github.io
Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 05:13:56PM +0100, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users wrote:
> On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote:
> > "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
> > What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
> > 
> > I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's wrong
> > with it.
> 
> To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it 
> would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in 4.0
> 

Tom, this is simply not true.
If you look at issue #2132 you will see that it was a deliberate design
principle. It has nothing to do with the architecture changes and
everything to do with simplifying the UX.

I have to say that most of the users I have helped to work with Qubes
(most unfamiliar to Linux and certainly unused to the command line),
simply DO NOT USE the manager.
The set up is such that with a custom menu they simply don't want (or
need) to know about the implementation, and the Manager would be
confusing.

Of course some people like to have this sort of stuff, just as some people
like to have conky configured with process lists etc, but it shouldn't
be a necessary part of running Qubes. Nor should the Qubes UX be led by
those people.

> This is relevant to know because that means nobody actively thought
> "It is not good enough, lets remove it".
> The removal then, in my own opinion, means we have an opportunity to do 
> better.
> 
> 
> To support the point of view of "useful but wasn't any good", let me explain 
> what I think such a tool should behave like.
> 
> The first issue with the old tool, and also with some of the new tools, are 
> that you already have to know how things work in order to be able to use it.
> For instance the terminology 'appvm', 'templatevm' etc are completely not 
> explained anywhere. You have to go to a website to learn what the mean.
> 
> A clear success story of Qubes is its networking, abstracting the netVm is 
> done to add security without having any significant impact on usability.
> Practically speaking, normal users can ignore the whole networking setup as 
> it "just works".
> 
> This is the level of support that we want. And most tools are nowhere near 
> that just yet.
> 
> Some examples of things that in 3.2 as well as in 4.0 are clearly in need of 
> a lot of love are;
> 
> * Which VMs are in which state. If you start something and the netvm/
> firewall VM are auto-started, this is not at all clear to the user. If 
> something fails, it gets even worse.
> 
> * Network communication between Qubes. Routing via the firewallVM.
> 
> * Port forwarding. FirewallVM again.

Neither of these are core tasks in Qubes, and I would expect that
someone who wants to implement this should be capable of setting it up,
and understand the risks in doing so.
It's possible that this could be implemented into a separate network GUI
but I see little advantage in including it in the manager. Frankly, it
has enormous scope for subverting the benefits of Qubes and I see great
danger in making it too easily available.

> 
> * Media-management. Hard drives etc. It just barely works today.

Not my experience. There are occasional issues, but generally this seems
to work well. BUT basic users generally want little more than to load
data from USBs/phones and to backup to disk, and for them the new (and
old) tools seem to work fine.

> 
> * Graphical configuration of multiple qubes. Even in 3.2 not being able to 
> open more than one config dialog at a time was silly.
> 
> 
> This is just a short list based on my experiments over the last month or so. 
> I'm sure others can add wishlist items.
> -- 
> Tom Zander
> Blog: https://zander.github.io
> Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 17:34:24 CET Elias Mårtenson wrote:
> I had a script that updated the templatevms and it was written in Python,
> taking advantage of the API. This script stopped working in 4.0. I rewrote
> it to use the commandline tools instead.
> 
> Perhaps a new UI could also be based on those tools. Without a need to use
> Python, such UI could be implemented in any language. That would be an
> interesting project.

i was pondering between two options;
a) hope that the python APIs are just thin wrappers that send the actual 
commands to the daemon process via a unix socket and instead write code that 
uses the protocol on the socket in a language of choice.

b) generate an python script for certain calls and then call them in order 
to call the APIs.

the first would be beneficial as that allows us to receive notifications 
from the daemon (like a new VM starting).

My language of choice is Qt/C++ with QML for the GUI.
-- 
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Blog: https://zander.github.io
Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 00:14:04 UTC+8, Tom Zander  wrote:

> On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote:

> > "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
> > What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
> > 
> > I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's wrong
> > with it.
> 
> To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it 
> would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in 4.0

I had a script that updated the templatevms and it was written in Python,
taking advantage of the API. This script stopped working in 4.0. I rewrote
it to use the commandline tools instead.

Perhaps a new UI could also be based on those tools. Without a need to use
Python, such UI could be implemented in any language. That would be an
interesting project.

> To support the point of view of "useful but wasn't any good", let me explain 
> what I think such a tool should behave like.

I was the one who said that, and your statement is an almost spot-on summary
of my opinion.

> The first issue with the old tool, and also with some of the new tools, are 
> that you already have to know how things work in order to be able to use it.
> For instance the terminology 'appvm', 'templatevm' etc are completely not 
> explained anywhere. You have to go to a website to learn what the mean.

The 3.2 VM manager, with all is faults, did help newcomers a single place
to see what was going on. It's not harder in 4.0, but I'd imagine that to
a newcomer it would look a lot more opaque.

This, I believe, is the most important feature of a new UI; the ability
to guide a new user to the proper usage of the OS.

> A clear success story of Qubes is its networking, abstracting the netVm is 
> done to add security without having any significant impact on usability.
> Practically speaking, normal users can ignore the whole networking setup as 
> it "just works".

For a new UI, I imagine a graphical representation of the networking setup.
Think boxes with arrows, showing connections, ports, IP-addresses, etc.
In fact, hardware assignments could be represented there as well.

Do a Google image search for "flow control ui" to see what I'm thinking of.

> * Which VMs are in which state. If you start something and the netvm/
> firewall VM are auto-started, this is not at all clear to the user. If 
> something fails, it gets even worse.

Easy access to the logs from here would be a most welcome quality-of-life
improvement.

> * Graphical configuration of multiple qubes. Even in 3.2 not being able to 
> open more than one config dialog at a time was silly.

Yes. The fact that the old VM manager was blocking, and you couldn't do
anything with it while an operation was in progress was one of its biggest
flaws.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread Ted Brenner

Here are some use cases:

1) The ability to see all the VMs currently running in one easy spot. This
helps me remember to shutdown certain VMs that I forgot to shutdown when I
was done with them.
2) The ability to know which template VMs need updating.
3) Related to 2, which appVMs need to restart since their template was
updated.
4) Easy place to make changes to VMs like expanding their available disk
space.

To sum up Rory's point. It is a clean visual way to get a lot of
information. I get that there's a new infrastructure so you'd have to
rebuild it from scratch but it was a handy tool. Warts and all. At least
for me.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Unman  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 06:24:42AM -0800, Elias Mårtenson wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 21:58:56 UTC+8, Unman  wrote:
> > > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 03:34:25PM -0800, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> > > > Just read it. Thats fucking stupid.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > I think it's safe to say that opinion is divided on the removal.
> >
> > I liked the old tool. However, I am also on the side of agreeing with its
> > removal.
> >
> > The old tool was useful, but it wasn't any good. As Tom Zander suggested
> earlier,
> > someone else should create a new GUI. Like him, I also took a look at it
> but
> > decided not to, since Python is one of the languages I like the least,
> and when
> > it comes to unpaid work, I prefer doing it in a language I actually
> enjoy using.
> >
> > There may be people out there that enjoy writing GUIs in Python, and I'm
> sure the
> > entire Qubes community would be immensly grateful if someone stepped up
> to the
> > task. I certainly would be.
> >
>
> "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
> What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
>
> I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's wrong
> with it.
>
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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote:
> "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
> What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?
> 
> I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's wrong
> with it.

To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that it 
would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes in 4.0

This is relevant to know because that means nobody actively thought
"It is not good enough, lets remove it".
The removal then, in my own opinion, means we have an opportunity to do 
better.

To support the point of view of "useful but wasn't any good", let me explain 
what I think such a tool should behave like.

The first issue with the old tool, and also with some of the new tools, are 
that you already have to know how things work in order to be able to use it.
For instance the terminology 'appvm', 'templatevm' etc are completely not 
explained anywhere. You have to go to a website to learn what the mean.

A clear success story of Qubes is its networking, abstracting the netVm is 
done to add security without having any significant impact on usability.
Practically speaking, normal users can ignore the whole networking setup as 
it "just works".

This is the level of support that we want. And most tools are nowhere near 
that just yet.

Some examples of things that in 3.2 as well as in 4.0 are clearly in need of 
a lot of love are;

* Which VMs are in which state. If you start something and the netvm/
firewall VM are auto-started, this is not at all clear to the user. If 
something fails, it gets even worse.

* Network communication between Qubes. Routing via the firewallVM.

* Port forwarding. FirewallVM again.

* Media-management. Hard drives etc. It just barely works today.

* Graphical configuration of multiple qubes. Even in 3.2 not being able to 
open more than one config dialog at a time was silly.

This is just a short list based on my experiments over the last month or so. 
I'm sure others can add wishlist items.
-- 
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Blog: https://zander.github.io
Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 06:24:42AM -0800, Elias Mårtenson wrote:
> On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 21:58:56 UTC+8, Unman  wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 03:34:25PM -0800, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> > > Just read it. Thats fucking stupid. 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > 
> > I think it's safe to say that opinion is divided on the removal.
> 
> I liked the old tool. However, I am also on the side of agreeing with its 
> removal.
> 
> The old tool was useful, but it wasn't any good. As Tom Zander suggested 
> earlier,
> someone else should create a new GUI. Like him, I also took a look at it but
> decided not to, since Python is one of the languages I like the least, and 
> when
> it comes to unpaid work, I prefer doing it in a language I actually enjoy 
> using.
> 
> There may be people out there that enjoy writing GUIs in Python, and I'm sure 
> the
> entire Qubes community would be immensly grateful if someone stepped up to the
> task. I certainly would be.
> 

"useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly designed?
What 2 features should be implemented/fixed?

I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's wrong
with it.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 21:58:56 UTC+8, Unman  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 03:34:25PM -0800, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> > Just read it. Thats fucking stupid. 
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> I think it's safe to say that opinion is divided on the removal.

I liked the old tool. However, I am also on the side of agreeing with its 
removal.

The old tool was useful, but it wasn't any good. As Tom Zander suggested 
earlier,
someone else should create a new GUI. Like him, I also took a look at it but
decided not to, since Python is one of the languages I like the least, and when
it comes to unpaid work, I prefer doing it in a language I actually enjoy using.

There may be people out there that enjoy writing GUIs in Python, and I'm sure 
the
entire Qubes community would be immensly grateful if someone stepped up to the
task. I certainly would be.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 03:34:25PM -0800, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> Just read it. Thats fucking stupid. 
> 
> -- 

I think it's safe to say that opinion is divided on the removal.

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:02:43 CET Franz wrote:
> Sorry for the obviously stupid question, but why is it harder to write it
> in python rather than something else?

Not at all, its a good question.

It is harder to *have* to write it in python instead of any langauge any 
developer may be  actually good at.

It limits the pool of available developers, available toolkits/libraries and 
other such resources quite dramatically.
-- 
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Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel

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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?

2017-12-06 Thread Franz

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:22 AM, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users <
qubes-users@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 08:14:44 CET taii...@gmx.com wrote:
> > On 12/04/2017 06:34 PM, r...@tuta.io wrote:
> > > Just read it. Thats fucking stupid.
> >
> > Sure is, I am tired of the linux greybeard obsession with the CLI - it
> > is not always the best choice.
> >
> > When it comes to management of many virtual machines a GUI is a must to
> > speed tasks and avoid 3AM critical mistakes.
>
> The creation of GUIs doesn’t have to be done by the Qubes team, in my
> opinion.
>
> I would even argue that the skills required to make fine UX apps are
> significantly different and we’ll likely get better interaction from people
> that are further away from the core development.
>
> I took a look at this myself and got disengaged when I realized that the
> core team does all of its APIs in python. Which means that the only way to
> ask the qubes-daemon something is to either write in python, or emulate the
> way that python talks to it.
>
> This does not make it impossible just significantly harder to write good
> GUIs
> for Qubes.
>
>
Sorry for the obviously stupid question, but why is it harder to write it
in python rather than something else?


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> Blog: https://zander.github.io
> Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel
>
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Re: [qubes-users] What happened to domain manager in 4?