If you only need them long enough to look something up, check your local
library or ask a local AHJ. You likely won't be able to take them home, but
you can look them over.
Ed Kramer
Littleton, CO
> -Original Message-
> From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforu
Seriously, depending upon the year you want, www.abebooks.com Or ebay.
Otherwise, new from the ICC (International Code Council).
Scott
W: (763) 425-1001
C: (612) 759-5556
Sent from my handheld. Please excuse any misspelled words.
-Original Message-
From: Jay Jay Blocker
Sent: Frida
This might seem like a dumb question but what is the best way to obtain a copy
or access to the IBC and IFC?
Jay
From: John Drucker
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:53:24 AM
Subject: RE: Fire marshall
Jay,
Colorado is a
Hey, we are not all lefties here on the West Coast. I do agree though,
talking politics at work is one of those workplace cardinal sins. Next
thing you know we'll all be comparing salaries.
Justin D. Reid, P.E.
RLH Fire Protection
16735 Saticoy St. #110
Van Nuys, CA 91406
213-798-0251
Sent
Our greatest challenge is identifying water supplies with the aggressive
microbes. If there are no microbes there is no problem. If there are, we
have a problem that limiting of oxygenated water doesn't fully fix.
Paul Johnson
Bardane, Inc. Visioning a competitive workforce
(407) 401-7154 - Offi
Forest,
MIC is a colony of different species of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria
that live in a symbiotic relationship that cause them to flourish. A
by-product of their collaboration, if you will, is MIC. Introduction
of fresh water and its attendant free oxygen (O2 molecules in
solution) within th
m mailing list
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>
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Greg,
The country is surely capitalist, not pure mind you, but would you
really want to have a real free market economy and the robber barons,
child labor, slavery and all it can engender. Our work is derived from
government regulation and would not exist in a true free market.
Hammurabi, despot t
Question:
What is the concern with limiting new oxygen into the system? Water
molecules are oxygen and hydrogen, yes? Please explain.
Forest Wilson
Cherokee Fire
Is it better to run the ITC off the riser and limit the new oxygen into the
system, or run it off the tail end and check f
Academic exercise. Take care.
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Thom McMahon wrote:
> What can I say. I'll just continue to sprinkler them and you won't. I guess
> as Bobby C. would says "The standard is perfectly clear until the second
> person reads it."
>
> Happy Weekend.
>
> Thom McMahon, SET
This will be my first and last comment on this subject. I agree with Mark,
that sending people to Washington that do everything in their power to
restrict the free market is an embarrassment and should be a concern to
everyone who uses this forum. For without the free market, the only thing
woul
What can I say. I'll just continue to sprinkler them and you won't. I guess
as Bobby C. would says "The standard is perfectly clear until the second
person reads it."
Happy Weekend.
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-795
As one officially fighting the good fight here in Washington I love
this statement. With no effort on our part the statistics repudiate
the statement and I think we'll be able to both use that "stupid"
statement and the NAHB spin to further expose their machinations to
the legislature and the publi
n email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org
>
> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
>
--
Ron Greenman
at home
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Thom,
I think intent is in the language also I just read it differently. It
doesn't say heating equipment and air conditioning equipment but lumps
heating and air conditioning together such as in HVAC. Also the water
heater isn't a particular problem since the max temp is about 140
degrees. It's t
Dave,
I really didn't miss your point, I was ignoring your issue with this being a
technical forum, and taking advantage of the fact that while you generalized in
the statement "...refrain from using the names of political leaders,
particularly in a derogatory context...", I was very specificall
The fire in my customer's office was started by a HUMIDIFIER.
Not something I'd have been worried about until Wednesday's "event".
Glc
Can't we all just get along?
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf
Any of us on this board who have had any experience on the tailboard, or who
investigated deaths in home fires can immediately see the lie in that
statement. I can only shake my head at the gross stupidity of that
statement.
Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon,Inc
-
Ron:
Air conditioning equipment is generally not "Fuel Fired" yet requires
sprinkler protection and a Hot Water Heater is a Heater, just say its name!
13R doesn't say "Air Heater" or Water Heater" or "Radiant Heater" it just
lumps them all together. If it heats any heat transfer medium it's a heat
Mark:
You seem to have missed my point, which was that this is a forum on fire
protection and particularly sprinkler protection. If you want to discuss or do
something about the leadership qualities, or lack thereof, of our public
servants, write your representatives, vote, volunteer for a p
Mark, et al.,
While I defend your right to your opinion and your right to express
that opinion privately or publicly, and I believe that a public
figure, particularly a politician, is fair game for any kind of
muckraking and verbal abuse, I also think that this forum is not the
venue I come to for
I disagree if the device is electric and the closet it is in meets the
size requirements for omitting a head since a water heater is not
'heating and air-conditioning equipment" nor is it "fuel-fired." Gas
burner water heater or wood boiler (I've had one) would require a
head.
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009
Ok, while I'm grinning ear to ear and agreeing with Mark, I recognize Todd
and Dave have good valid points, and we should focus back on sprinklers.
We've chewed up far too many pixels on this, and let's start next week off
without all this Pelosi pelosi. And not only did Steve get me started on
th
6.9.4 Sprinklers shall be installed in any closet used for heating
and air-conditioning equipment.
Whereas 13R does not require the "Heating Equipment" to be "Fuel Fired" and
also since 13R provides a specific distance that must be maintained between
water heaters and sprinkler heads. Additionally
David,
I believe it is wrong to speak in derogatory terms about people or groups, but
I believe it is equally wrong not to criticise or condemn the guilty. I also
believe we should not refer to our public servants as political leaders.
Leaders they are not, servants they are supposed to be. Res
Hi Cliff,
I would say that they are required. (2007 - 6.9.3) allows omission of
sprinklers in clothes and linen closets and if it meets the conditions
as listed. (6.9.4) states that any closet used for heating and
air-conditioning equipment would require the sprinklers. IMHO if it is
an accessi
I know it's late on a Friday but I just had a colleague ask a question that
I thought I knew but the more I look at it, I'm not sure.
NFPA 13R doesn't say anything about putting heads in water heater closets
that I can find. It requires them in HVAC closets (2007- 6.9.4), but
excludes elevator
Here's the line to take to court when guess what "It Doesn't!"
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
"What we have now works; there will be no harm to citizens by the delay."
To quote him from a much earlier speech; "we are not red states or
blue states, we are the United States", so let's use our diversity in
a positive manner and get ourselves out of this mess (economy and bad
spec writing)
To the operators of this Forum: I apologize for the non-technical
nature
I am currently working on a project where we ran into a similar
problem (I think I mentioned it in earlier posts) The problem there
was that the water supply varies almost 30 psi at any given time of
the day. There were three water towers on the system that would fill
at random times (it has ch
Thanks Todd. Well said. When my friend David asked for restraint he
had no idea, because until now he didn't know my political bent, how
much restraint I was exercising. To paraphrase what our current
president said the other night I know everyone here is a American that
wants the best for his coun
OK, campers. This has gone far enough. We are a
diverse group of people united by a common
profession. We appreciate and respect the
diversity of each others professional experience
and we should carry that to a personal level as
well. This profession has people of different
race, religion, g
I think we're to wait for the Sprinkler Tax Incentive rather than having
spkrs n the incentive act anyway. You should know where your PAC money is
going :)
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
I don't think de Vries is pelosi at all. The NAHB spies will report these
remarks to the most powerful woman in Congress and you can forget about any
incentive act.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: big...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:57:55
To:
S
Cheers Tom, GB says Hi.
Mark at Aero
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org]on Behalf Of
big...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: system review, now
Although I can understand and respect the politically correct nature of this
response, I find it totally pelosi. I think that the term is appropriate and
here to stay.
Tom Prymak
-Original Message-
From: David de Vries
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 1:08
That this forum has such outstanding participation and participants speaks to
the fact that, like the children of a small MN town, we are all above average.
One thing we seem to share is a desire to see good quality fire protection in
our communities and in the work that we all do. This is the
Hmm.
If you're objecting to the use of Pelosi as bs, I apologize but feel her
actions and very public stature almost beg for it, and I'll likely continue.
Sorry if it bothers you. I apologize if anyone was offended by Pelosi, but
she offends me often.
As for Leyton and McMahon, we often debate and
I think it is Leyton-degrading to use someone's name in vain.although i am
as guilty as the next.
I know what it feels like to be cast as a jack-ass.
Conform to the norm, or they assume you can't perform.
If we got a God-Deal problem with something, then McMahon-almighty
call out the problem, be
Bill, I didn't send out any letters but I did FOIL the plans, calcs, and
submittal package after the building department told me it was the only way
I could see them. George was right in his assumptions - no friction loss
for the flex heads, the calc nodes on the drawing are not the numbers in
It caught on outside the forum a couple weeks ago. It replaced the term BS
outside the forum
Jim Sutherland
DeMaranville Installations
1510 NW 101st Street
Des Moines, IA 50325
515/225-8598
Fax: 515/225-9796
Fire Sprinklers Save Lives
Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any att
Can I suggest we use another career politician's name as a substitute for
"numnut"? You know, someone that the only thing they are good at and
understand is politics. I've got a few in mind. I am enjoying the Pelosi
term...hoping it'll catch on outside the forum. :)
Reed A. Roisum, CET
Fire
On a related note, Blazemaster has added Wheatland pipe with anti-
microbial coating to its' Chemical Compatibility list.
Roland
On Feb 27, 2009, at 7:15 AM, George Church wrote:
Is the possibility of MIC greater than the likelihood of ESF from MIC
coatings? This would aid us in deciding, on
Venus and Mars. I raise hypothetical questions, you hunter-gatherers answer
the question instead of pursuing the issue of statistics :) and how to find
them. Quite a change from the suggester of a group hug:)
I agree on the BFP, MIC, and although we often have the ITC on a riser
manifold, we gener
bullseye. IF protection is being provided but NFPA 409 does not
require the hangar to be protected then you do it as a NFPA 13 system.
Roland
On Feb 27, 2009, at 5:27 AM, Fletcher, Ron wrote:
It's in #13. I believe it is EH Grp I.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024
-
I had a similar case in an apartment I leased with recalled heads the landlord
refused to address or acknowledge after I showed them the recall notice.
I waited 2 months then filed suit.
After I filed a lawsuit against the landlord requesting the court order the
Fire Code be adhered to, the la
But if you are doing a risk analysis you are forgetting the outcome side.
For example, failure of a BFP to protect the public in theory could be
catastrophic to many if not all on the water supply. Failure of a BFP in a
fire should only affect one building. On the theoretical side some may die
fro
I'd tweak 2 things - "contacting your design engineer and/or sprinkler
contractor" to a licensed PE to investigate. Not that a reputable contactor
couldn't achieve the same results but they have a legal issue if the
allegations are true.
"your sprinkler system will not operate as it was designed
He has a right to be as particular as he wants, but you don't have ANY
first-hand knowledge of what transpired, gauge accuracy, etc. and Bill is
right to suggest a short and simple letter leaving other possibilities open.
Murphy notes that otherwise you may have injury added to insult when YOU get
But this is his home Bill. He has a right to be more demanding.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: bill.bro...@brooksfpe.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:33:47
To:
Subject: RE: system review
Step 1 - Do not send an overnight letter to the fire marshal.
S
Step 1 - Do not send an overnight letter to the fire marshal.
Step 2 - Do send an overnight letter to the building owner. Make it
simple so you don't do any engineering or make any assumptions about who
didn't do what when.
Dear mr/ms owner; on a recent visit i noted the required automatic
sprin
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Just as we recently discussed that we don't know how many heads a year are
installed, or how many have been installed in the past 100+ years, when
discussing unexpected activations, statistics of some order of magnitude
would be helpful in numerous other things.
Which occurs more frequently, failu
inkler.org
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http://ww
Just as a plumber would assume testing a sprinkler backflow is limited to
the backflow portion of the test, not aware of the forward flush we're more
concerned about.
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On
In Washington a fire sprinkler contractor can put in the backflow for
the sprinkler if it's outside the building perimeter. If inside it has
to be a plumber. My favorite part is that the sprinkie can put in the
UG to the flange and the piping after the backflow but the plumber has
to be called in f
I was flabbergasted when an august group of design managers was queried
about adjusting flow tests for tank gradient, then disappointed.
I have myself to blame since I have not submitted a proposal to the #13
Committee to add the requirement, since apparently it must be specified, not
just obvious
Question for the lettered members and others with experience and/or an
opinion -
I recently looked at the riser of a new system installed in my home town.
The system requirement according to the hyd. calc. nameplate states
377.9...@75psi. The system gauges read 60psi static.
When I contacted
Here's the rest of the story. But most important this decision HAD NOTHING
to do with home sprinklers. That was local NAHB spin.
Local well respected and politically active fire chief sends this to the
paper/reporter:
To: bswen...@bemidjipioneer.com
Subject: Article
Just wanted to share my
Happened in St. Paul about 6 years ago. It's not unheard of but always
tragic. There are sure a bunch of wacko's out there (here too).
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Appeal to the City Council?
Have them take you to court?
Think of it like what if you got a ticket from a police officer that you
didn't deserve. A Fire Marshal is nothing more than a cop specializing in
fire issues.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
It's in #13. I believe it is EH Grp I.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:23 AM
To: sprinkler
We have a local area that will not allow fire sprinkler contractors to
test,
service or install backflows on fire sprinkler systems (even on the
anti-freeze loops).
This is the way it is in the entire state of Michigan. Sprinkler
contractor cannot even help the plumber install the backflow.
IF you have to provide protection for Group III, you do it in
accordance with the requirements for Group II if I remember correctly.
Most popular Group II option is usually automatic sprinkler system
above with low level low expansion foam system.
Justin Reid
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 2
So far as I know the guy didn't schedule an inspection.
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: A
George,
Did the contractor schedule an inspection and the AHJ refused to do it ?
I've been known to see work going on and remind a contractor of the required
inspections prior to close up, but ultimately it's up to the contractor to
schedule and obtain a satisfactory inspection before proceeding.
Minn. delays adoption of home sprinkler code
February 25, 2009
By Brad Swenson
The Bemidji Pioneer
MINNEAPOLIS Rules to mandate automatic fire sprinklers in new homes
constructed after Jan. 1, 2011, will be delayed, the state Department of
Labor and Industry says.
In a decision announced Mond
Jay,
Colorado is an ICC State. http://www.iccsafe.org/government/map/co.htm
What that means is access to the ICC as a government member. Yes each AHJ in
Colorado has direct access as a government member to ICC's Technical Staff.
Additionally I have yet to be told that NFPA would not assist an AHJ
PE's generally get involved with a sprinkler design at two stages. First, as
the representative of the owner. In this role, he/she is the
engineer-on-record. The PE has to determine and specify the scope of work,
specify the design criteria, review the water supply etc. Yes, if he feels
that he sho
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