Here's the situation:
A person wants to open up a martial arts studio in a strip mall. The middle
unit has 2800 square feet of open floor space for matting. The building dept.
comes up with an occupant load of greater than 50 people therefor, it is
classed an assembly. The planning dept. gave
Any reason you're not using Means?? If you're looking for ballpark, those
books will provide that with ease.
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For Technical
That was in the spec and since our shop does welded outlets, I took it out.
Chris, surely you have "insta-galv" spray in your shop, too?
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thurs
So when you want galv pipe do you allow welded outlets? Noting the outlets
and weld aren't exactly galv even with a coat of paint.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
LOL, Rahe, I seriously laughed out loud in my office. Thanks for the smile.
I just had them taken out of a MasterSpec for a project we helped put out to
bid, and didn't get any argument from the PE who was backpedaling from
MasterSpec and its 60 pages of how to install a sprinkler system without
e
Chris,
I understand your plight and even I don't require screwed galvanized
fittings. We all know how difficult it is to thread pipe into them.
However, why are they made? Is there really a market for them? Not to
mention that newly threaded pipe has threads exposed that are not
galvanized. The
I use Galv. fitting with pipe in one place only. Bad environment. Everything
else gets black.
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-816-1087 Mobile
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com
> >-Original Message-
How often do you see galv fittings required on galv piping? Usually ductile
or cast are permitted aren't they? Don't ask where just know your tax
dollars are being put to good use - NOT! SIPA in a 20k office building with
galv required on both. We're not talking some secret agency or historic
wh
What about water hoses?
Greg
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 12:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Domestic Supply
That sounds
I was being tongue-in-cheek related to you can't prohibit something that
doesn't exist. I shall make it a point to work on my emoticons :-J, :j, 8-;)
On the topic of changes I saw some other odd language things the committee
did.
0.003" cellophane or thin bags? Great specificity or what the he
For clarification from the 2010 edition, Caps mine:
3.4.1 Antifreeze Sprinkler System. A wet pipe sprinkler system
employing automatic sprinklers that are attached to a piping
system that contains an antifreeze solution and that are connected
to a water supply. The antifreeze solution is discharge
Unless you find ANYTHING in NFPA 13 supporting such an arrangement and
countering the definition (yes that is a weak place to rely on for not
doing something but it is quite explicit), I'd go beyond calling it a
bad idea and say you would be installing a non-conforming system.
Roland
On May
Didn't realize you were from Texas since most don't consider 15' x 15'
a SMALL item. Even such large sections with opening between them
(often called floating clouds) are not an acceptable ceiling but just
an obstruction.
Roland
On May 20, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Todd Williams wrote:
> So we c
So we can't consider a ceiling a collection of interconnected 15'x
15' heat collectors?
At 03:13 PM 5/20/2010, you wrote:
>That reference does NOT support the existence of functional heat
>collectors - even if you presume such a thing (I prefer to use assume
>since we know what that means). It
That reference does NOT support the existence of functional heat
collectors - even if you presume such a thing (I prefer to use assume
since we know what that means). It's to stop folks from sticking
small items over the sprinkler then claiming they provide some value.
As the Annex points
Craig,
I would think that if you are simply looking for list prices any supplier or
manufacturer would be happy to provide you with that. If you can't get that
from anyone, contact me offline and I'll see what I can do to help.
I haven't been in the contracting side of this for 8 or 9 years but
It doesn't matter. I don't need to know the discounted price ABC sprinkler
gets versus XYZ Sprinkler. Just looking for list prices. If I get differing
info I'll use the highest. These estimates are used for funding of the project
so if they get more than what's needed they usually just spen
That information is confidential for the most part. Different discounts are
given to different contractors. I am sure the more you buy the better the
break. So even if you got info from a couple on here, it could still be
miles different.
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinkler
That sounds accurate, thank you.
Bobby Gillett
Sr. Project Manager
Key Fire Protection, Inc.
(731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax
(731) 267-4853 cell
bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-bou
I'd just list the issue as a Misc. Observation. Used to do that when I'd
notice things like crates stacked too close to ceilings or items being stored
in places they weren't intended to be stored. It's not a system deficiency but
it's noted.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
M
The suppliers wouldn't send their info since I'm not a contractor and wouldn't
be buying pipe from them.
Local prices are irrelevant since majority of my projects are all over the
place, not here locally.
I've got Tyco's data, but that's just parts, no pipe.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Prote
Sounds like if he was smart cheap he would buy min. 40 deg F for a few
months a year, but the 54k and many blowout thing sounds like he is also
into insurance on the side somehow
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Merkle [mailto:dlmcolon...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:00 AM
To
If all he's checking is magnitude differences changing prices shouldn't have
that much effect. Sprinkler pipe has gone up several times already this
year. And yes expecting more. Pipe and the scrape steel it's made from is
a world market and China didn't go into recession just dropped back to bi
Can't help you with that, but a friend of mine in the steel business
told me there may be a big price increase in steel coming in June.
Reason: dramatic increase in raw materials. That could make most
current pricing info obsolete.
At 12:23 PM 5/20/2010, you wrote:
>Would anyone happen to hav
Always do. Thanks for the heads up.
Matt
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-816-1087 Mobile
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com
> >-Original Message-
> >From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:spr
Read Roland's article in Sprinkler age NFPA 25 Upcoming 2011 Edition,
especially the part about Hazard Evaluation.
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerfor
Gotta love these computers and back up. Cheap and Very effective.
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-816-1087 Mobile
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com
> >-Original Message-
> >From: sprinklerforum-boun
You can write and mail anything you want too. Just having that piece of
paper in the file could save you and your insurance co. everything,
including your kids college fund.
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 97
Water flow switch must not operate before 4 GPM and not after 10 GPM most are
in the 8 to 9 GPM range. Unless you have a big pan head shower or tub the
switch wont operate if you set the retard to the max.
Mike Cabral
Bobby Gillett wrote:
> Truly you think you would be able to since the
Oh the notification happens. On the SEPARATE form from the report thingy.
You know, the one that is thrown away. What I want is something I can hang a
Yellow/Red tag on and get the state behind me. But if it is not in the
adopted code/standard, then I cannot write it up. The lawyers can scream all
I would say that unless you have an inspector that is totally ignorant on
13, 1, IBC or any applicable code or standard besides 25, some Lawyer will
say that YOU KNEW!!! Of the deficiency, and did not make any attempt to
report it either to the owner or the AHJ. "Therefore as a "Professional"
Inspe
Would anyone happen to have a distributor price list on pipe and ftgs? Looking
for black and Galv. Standard sizes up to 8". This can be straight list prices.
Just need to make sure the estimators are using the right values, so far they
seem off.
This is for rough order of magnitude estimati
See 3.4.1 in the 02 edition. Handbook commentary is specific.
Then look at 7.1.3 same edition.
Finally 7.5.3.1
It is not allowed.
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-816-1087 Mobile
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire
Truly you think you would be able to since the tie in point for us is tee'd
off just after the backflow, but I am trying to prevent going back and
adding later.
Bobby Gillett
Sr. Project Manager
Key Fire Protection, Inc.
(731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax
(731) 267-4853 cell
bobby.gill...@
Could you set the WFS retard out to 90 sec and avoid the check?
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:
At first blush this is not a good idea. You could develop a head pressure water
column above the DPV which can slow or even prevent operation of the DPV. Newer
DPV have a low differential. You still need expansion tank $$. How do you do a
trip test AF then air then water. No No No!
Sent on the S
The smaller attic area is well below 40 gallons. The total dry system is
probably closer to 350.
Daniel L. Merkle, CET
NICET # 118915
Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III
"COLONIAL" Fire Protection Systems Inc.
937 Linden Ave. W.
E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445
Office-(585) 381-7362
Fax-
> >
> >Tiles are part of the ceiling assembly and the protection design for a
> >standard drop ceiling presumes the tiles are in place and yes, grid
> >with no tiles is a design style, grids with some tiles is a design
> >style, floating grid with an open perimeter is a design style, but
> >th
How large is the complete dry system? (gallon capacity)
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
*Licensed in KS & MO
913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[ma
Well that is sort of the problem. He has had many blow outs over the years and
is afraid of dry systems. He had another sprinkler company do about 20k worth
of work to his system last year and I can't determine if they made the system
better or worse. He had a blow-out on x-mas eave this past wi
I completely agree that it sounds like a bad idea and will do everything that I
can to talk the owner out of it. However, I am just trying to figure out if
this would even be allowed per code. If the owner persists, I will walk away.
Daniel L. Merkle, CET
NICET # 118915
Automatic Sprinkler Sy
Just wait until the dry system freezes and pops, and then have him compare the
cleanup bill to the cost of retrofit.
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
*Licensed in KS & MO
913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com
-Original Me
$$$. Cheap owner.
Daniel L. Merkle, CET
NICET # 118915
Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III
"COLONIAL" Fire Protection Systems Inc.
937 Linden Ave. W.
E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445
Office-(585) 381-7362
Fax-(585) 381-8263
E-mail - dlmcolon...@yahoo.com
_
I agree. This sounds like trouble. I would not want to have to explain that
design in court.
Is there any reason why the entire dry system cannot be converted to
anti-freeze? Or a wet line run to supply the anti-freeze branch?
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
*
The definition of anti-freeze systems in NFPA 13
specifically references it feeding from a wet
system. Also, is a sprinkler activates, it dump
anti-freeze, then air and finally water. I don't
know haw antifreeze would impact water delivery time. Sounds like a bad idea.
At 11:40 AM 5/20/2010,
I have 4 sprinklers in room coming from domestic supply. In NFPA 13 D.4
(LSC101:7.7.1.2) says an indicating shutoff valve shall be installed in an
accessible location between the sprinklers and the connection to the
domestic water supply. IBC 2006 903.3.5.1.1 (1) Valves shall not be
installed betw
So now I'm wondering why this is OK but the NFPA frowns on trapped
water in a heated
area in a dry system.
At 11:42 AM 5/20/2010, you wrote:
>So the idea would be that when the anti-freeze system activates, the
>antifreeze solution would be blown out by the supervisory air, then
>the dry valve
Correct.
Daniel L. Merkle, CET
NICET # 118915
Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III
"COLONIAL" Fire Protection Systems Inc.
937 Linden Ave. W.
E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445
Office-(585) 381-7362
Fax-(585) 381-8263
E-mail - dlmcolon...@yahoo.com
From:
So the idea would be that when the anti-freeze system activates, the antifreeze
solution would be blown out by the supervisory air, then the dry valve would
trip, then the water would fill the system and discharge?
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
*Licensed in K
He would like to a line off the dry system to feed the anti-freeze.
Daniel L. Merkle, CET
NICET # 118915
Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III
"COLONIAL" Fire Protection Systems Inc.
937 Linden Ave. W.
E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445
Office-(585) 381-7362
Fax-(585) 381-8263
E-mail - dlmco
Is there a CPVC pipe that is listed for use in dry systems?
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
*Licensed in KS & MO
913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
I have done this a few times. After the dry system piping had rusted out
this was suggested to the owner to reduce the maintenance problems with dry
sprinklers in attics. I have only know of one problem ie: when PG was
refilled in a system with CPVC piping.
Art
Tiroly and Associates.
-Origin
So he wants to remove the dry pipe valve and replace it with an anti-freeze bfp
and expansion tank? Or does he want to take a line off of the dry system to
feed the anti-freeze system (keeping the dry system in place)?
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
*Licensed
It hasn't made it out of the Legislature yet. It was sent back to the
House with amendments. It is listed on the House Calendar
[http://www.scstatehouse.gov/hcal/20100520.htm] today under the heading
"UNANIMOUS CONSENT REQUESTS SENATE AMENDMENTS" on page 26 as H. 4
Based on the 2002 version of NFPA-13 is there anything that restricts an
anti-freeze system from being piped off of a dry system? I have an owner of a
building with a relatively small attic that has a dry system in place that was
not installed properly and he would like to make this portion of h
I am not sure I agree with your approach. This is enforceable language
that is NFPA 1. NFPA 1 is not adopted in many areas. A simple copy
will make the enforcement of removed ceilings much easier.
John
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
5113 Berwyn Road
College
So using your theory, we should not encourage the adoption by the IRC of
residential sprinklers, nor should we encourage the adoption of that code by
states until they, in your opinion, adequately enforce existing codes.
We should not incorp. CMSA into 13, or anything else "NEW" until all of
existi
Thank you, Matthew
Bobby Gillett
Sr. Project Manager
Key Fire Protection, Inc.
(731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax
(731) 267-4853 cell
bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkl
2007 section 8.6.5.2.2
Matthew Drewello, PE
Fluor Corporation
100 Fluor Daniel Drive
Greenville, SC 29681
864-517-1814
"Bobby Gillett"
Sent by: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
05/20/2010 09:49 AM
Please respond to sprinklerforum
To
cc
Subject
Hospital curtains with mesh
Can someone direct me to the allowances for the mesh opening in hospital
curtains in NFPA 13? I know it used to be in there, but I cant seem to find
it.
Thank you,
Bobby Gillett
Sr. Project Manager
Key Fire Protection, Inc.
(731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax
(731) 267-4853 cell
It doesn't need carried over to 25
25 cannot be expected to incorporate all the building codes.
Sprinkler inspection and maintenance should not turn into building code
analysis.
Besides, there are so many items NFPA has added to 25 that aren't being
followed or enforced anyway.
I don't thin
Matt,
Depending on what codes they have adopted in their jurisdiction. I use the IFC
(2003) Chapter seven Fire-Resistance-Rated Construction. Fire resistant rated
construction must be maintained. Also with out ceiling tiles the heat would
rise and cause a delay in sprinkler activation. I hope th
NFPA 1 Chapter 13 Fire Protection Systems Section 13.3.3.3 Inspection, Testing
and Maintenance... Where automatic sprinklers are installed, ceilings necessary
for the proper actuation of the fire protection device in accordance with NFPA
13 shall be maintained.
Sounds like someone should propos
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