The NJ Uniform Fire Code at NJAC 5:70-2.16(5) stipulates a time frame of 24
hours for inadequate fire protection system as an imminent hazard. However
the fire official has the authority to take immediate measures such as
evacuation. in two recent situations fire department pumpers were placed
Thanks, Ron. That's the answer I was looking for. There did seem to be a great
deal of silence from the forum.
C. Burton Ford
NICET Certified IV
NFPA Certified Fire Protection Specialist
Cintas Fire Protection Inc
1038 Conshohocken Rd
Conshohocken, PA 19428
Tel 610-233-1400
Fax 610-233-1401
Now that I'm with my stuff, a cursory check of every edition back to the
first (1992) and nothing about a five year back flushing. I think we're
into one of those things thought up at soem Fire Marshals' meeting and has
become considered gospel. You always hear, It's in the Constitution, when
it's
Check the philadephia fire code, when I. used to
Do inspections in phila. About 11 yrs ago it was
Required on every annual. You had to backflush
The fdc and open and operate the fdc check
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com wrote:
Now that I'm
(NFPA 13: 11.1.2 - 2013 ed)
I have a situation where there is a 12 ft. opening leading from one hazard area
to another but the opening has an 18 steel wide flange beam running along it.
I'm wondering if this 18 beam would suffice to adequately contain the heat in
the separate areas since NFPA
When sizing a water storage tank feeding a fire pump for a new facility with
multiple sprinkler systems and fire hydrants, do you have to include any
type of allowance for the hydrants? The tank will be the sole source of
supply for all (rural area). There will be no hose stations or standpipes,
Omigosh, yes. Have you checked the fire code requirement for fire flow
yet? Required flow x reduction factor for sprinklers x duration in
hours = reserve volume. What size and construction type is the
building and what reduction will the serving fire department offer for
sprinklers? 50% is
Yeah, you are looking at possibly a 180,000 gallon tank or bigger if you
are supposed to take care of site fire flow.
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
On 5/13/2013 10:23 AM, Steve Leyton wrote:
Yes - Tank serves sprinklers and hydrants
NFPA 13 2010 edition
Figure 11.2.3.1.1 .20/1500
Table 11.2.3.1.2250 hose for 60 minutes min (assume remote
supervision)
Jack W. Carlson, SET
Triple A Fire Protection
Office - 251.649.2034
Fax - 251.649.2037
Cell - 706.247.5050
I need some history on warehouse protection requirements.
When was high piled storage protection with hydraulic calculations required?
That was covered in NFPA 231 back then.
The problem is a 22 ft high building with a 1975 - 130 SF pipe schedule
system and a 45 psi water supply for class 3 and
I don't think so. If you have two separate hazard classes you'd need to
extend the higher into the lower the requisite number of feet (I have 16 in
my head but I'm not trusting memory) and to both sides.
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Ralphy Henderson
ralphbuccan...@yahoo.comwrote:
(NFPA 13:
That's only part of it: you size the tank for the greater of
(sprinklers + HSA) or the fire flow demand, whichever is greater when
calculated as flow x duration.
Steve L.
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
Jack,
I don't think you need to allow hose stream for this, but as mentioned you
have to add fire flow per IFC, with whatever reduction for sprinklers the
Fire Marshal allows.
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Jack Carlson ja...@aaafp.com wrote:
Yes - Tank serves sprinklers and hydrants
1980 231C has it.
David Autry
Meininger Fire Protection Inc.
2521 W L St. Suite No.4
Lincoln, Ne 68522
Voice (402) 466-2616
Fax (402) 466-2617
da...@mfp-inc.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
Won't fire flow always exceed sprinkies and hose allowance?
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Steve Leyton
st...@protectiondesign.comwrote:
That's only part of it: you size the tank for the greater of
(sprinklers + HSA) or the fire flow demand, whichever is greater when
calculated as flow x
231C goes back to 1971, but the real question is what did the building or fire
code require?
Scott
(763) 425-1001 Office
(612) 759-5556 Cell
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
Still not semantically correct. You don't have to proved fire flow
and sprinkler demand concurrently. Sprinkler demand is calculated as
(sprinkler design area + hose stream allowance) x duration. Fire flow
is just fire flow. You determine the most demanding and the water
supply volume has to
Usually. The only real-world exception that comes to mind would be if
you a relatively small building of fire resistive construction and a
very demanding sprinkler system such as for H-occupancies or really
demanding storage. I could see a situation where you had a
2,000gpm-or-less fire flow
I think it dates back to mid 70's.
Arthur Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection Design
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David
Autry
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:36 PM
To:
One BIG thing that is often overlooked is the Code requirement for Fire Flow.
The IFC talks about determining fire flow by an approved method. Jurisdictions
vary in the approach they may or may not take in determining fire flow.
Appendix B of the IFC is fairly common, however there are
The building will never be used for high piled storage right?
Arthur Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection Design
Tiroly and Associates
24400 Highland Rd rm 25, CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 Cell
WWW.ATCOfirepro.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
A barrier for separation is a wall, not just a beam.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension 74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
-Original Message-
From:
It's 15 feet - but only if you don't have a barrier between areas able to
contain the heat from one area into the other. The 18 beam is essentially a
lintel between these areas.
- Original Message -
From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Can an extra hazard storage facility be protected by a gas system or dry
chemical system?
--
Craig Leadbetter
Safeguard of Marquette
PO Box 116
Marquette, MI 49855
(O) 906-475-9955
(F) 906-475-5474
(C) 906-362-5393
craigleadbet...@gmail.com
___
But it doesn't say a wall... it says a barrier or partition capable of
delaying heat. Isn't the intent to basically have a compartment capable of
containing the heat in one area and ensuring only the sprinklers in the
compartment operate? In dealing w/ compartments it is acceptable to have
No. This is a tech school.
Bobby Gillett
Sr. Project Manager
Key Fire Protection, Inc.
(731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax
(731) 267-4853 cell
www.keyfireprotection.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
NFPA 1:18.4.1* Scope.
A.18.4.1 Section 18.4 and the associated tables are only applicable for
determining minimum water supplies for manual fire suppression efforts. Water
supplies for fire protection systems are not addressed by this section. It is
not the intent to add the minimum fire
Forgot this one:
NFPA 1:18.4.5.2.1 Required fire flow shall be reduced by 75 percent when the
building is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system. The
resulting fire flow shall not be less than 1000 gpm (3785 L/min).
Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the
But the IFC says that fire flow MAY be reduced up to 75% as approved by
the Fire Official. Most jurisdictions that accept a reduction - at
least out here in CA - offer 50%, but not 75%. I have dealt with fire
departments that only offer 25% when certain more hazardous conditions
exist, such as
Is it bigger than a breadbox?
Dry chem. Is typically reserved for protecting areas inside equipment. Not
occupied or potentially occupied spaces.
For large areas there are so many problems with keeping the area tight to
contain gas such as FM-200 that it would be virtually impossible.
You are correct, it all depends on the applicable code and approved ammendments.
NFPA 1:
18.4.5.2.1 Required fire flow shall be reduced by 75 percent when the
building is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system. The
resulting fire flow shall not be less than 1000 gpm
Gas is also a one shot and it's over scenario. Even where gas is the
primary protection for a piece of equipment (what it's designed for, hence
the Special Hazards monicker) there's a sprinkler system in case 1. the
gas system fails to extinguisher the fire altogether, 2. can't provide long
term
Can the combustion gases accumulate and migrate below the 18 beam into the
adjacent space? Depending on fuel loading, very good possibility. A barrier
or partition from floor to ceiling creates a physical separation.
Look at the specific wording in A.11.1.2 where is talks about a wall or
The project is a Class IC storage facility storing lampricide in 5 gallon
containers with rack storage that is 2400 sqft. With a required .45/3000
plus 500 PGM for two hours the cost of the water supply is going to
outweigh the cost of the building.
The site is remote and there is no municipal
Thank you everyone. I was asking for another designer in our office; he
asked me and I didn't have the quick answer.
Bobby Gillett
Sr. Project Manager
Key Fire Protection, Inc.
(731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax
(731) 267-4853 cell
www.keyfireprotection.com
-Original Message-
Make a call to the guys at Victaulic and look at the Vortex system. You may be
able to offer it as an alternative design to traditional sprinklers to the AHJ.
It takes very little water, can suppress high challenge fuel fires in open
environments, doesn't require the same closure restrictions
I will give them a call. It might be an option I hadn't thought about this
system.
thanks
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:31 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
Make a call to the guys at Victaulic and look at the Vortex system. You
may be able to offer it as an alternative design to traditional
A foam/water system could reduce the water supply required. I had very good
success with Compressed air foam. This greatly reduced water supply
required.
Arthur Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection Design
Tiroly and Associates
24400 Highland Rd rm 25, CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 Cell
Art,
A foam system was acceptable per spec. Which manufacturer would I look at
for the system that you have used.
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Art Tiroly atir...@atcofirepro.com wrote:
A foam/water system could reduce the water supply required. I had very good
success with Compressed
Hmmm...back to the fire code and building code first. Is it required to be
sprinklered? Has the architect taken any advantages to area, height,
separation, etc., based upon sprinklers? If so, gas or dry chem. don't
substitute for required sprinklers...
Scott
(763) 425-1001 Office
(612)
Scott,
Unfortunately this is a design build project government project and the
whole spec is about 60 pages and the fire protection spec is limited in the
requirements except to meet code, although they did mention the
classification of the storage and the 13 gpm well that is on site for our
use
Craig,
You said the building was storing a Lampricide. For exterminating/controlling
Lamprey?
Do you have an MSDS on the actual product being stored?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax
Viking Fire Flex makes ICAF deluge systems. All open nozzles.
You might use AFFF foam water closed head at a suitable density.
Arthur Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection Design
Tiroly and Associates
24400 Highland Rd rm 25, CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 Cell
WWW.ATCOfirepro.com
-Original
I have an 8 riser with BFP with a system demand of 1500 gpm. I was
going to provide a test header consisting of (6) 2 1/2 hose valves for
the forward flow testing of the backflow preventor but then starting
wondering if there were any other means or devices out there that could
achieve the
NFPA 13:3.3.24 Thermal Barrier. A material that limits the average
temperature rise of the unexposed surface to not more than 250°F (139°C) above
ambient for a specified fire exposure duration using the standard
time-temperature curve of ASTM E 119, Standard Test Methods for Fire Tests of
I was told that bolts on a fire pump must have 3 threads showing on the bolt
side I complied and then was told I must have 5 exposed threads because it will
operate above 150 PSI I complied but I did ask were to find that. I love code
trivia I was told its some were in the ASME codes that are
Andy,
I have never seen anything in writing about the number of exposed threads of
a bolt thru the nut. However, I used to be an aircraft mechanic in the
Navy, and we had a rule of two exposed threads. We lived by that rule,
where it came from we never questioned. It worked in conditions of
Just like the velocity limit of 32ft/s rule. Never was valid but often
enforced with great zeal.
Roland
Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org
On May 13, 2013, at 1:34 PM, John
He is good natured FM I don't have a problem complying, but I did offer him 50
bucks for copy of the code.
Thank you,
Andy Johnston
On May 13, 2013, at 4:34 PM, John O'Connor jocon...@nfspk.com wrote:
Andy,
I have never seen anything in writing about the number of exposed threads of
a
Never seen it applied to an NFPA document, but I have heard referenced a
document called DIN 78 EN-Bolt end protrusions?
Jamey
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Monday,
The latest issue of Sprinkler Age has an article addressing how to calculate
the flow for exercising the BFP. You certainly don't need six 2-1/2 hose
valves. Approximately what pressure do you have at the riser when flowing the
system demand (without hose demand unless you have INSIDE hose
By definition, a lintel is a header above an opening in a wall. If a beam
would suffice, a room with a beam is would be two compartments. We reasonable
assume that a fuel package is not placed within a doorway (aka under the
lintel).
Roland
Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
American Fire
A 4 pipe 40 long with a shutoff valve should flow 1500 gpm and provide a
smooth flow to pitot.
Arthur Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection Design
Tiroly and Associates
24400 Highland Rd rm 25, CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 Cell
WWW.ATCOfirepro.com
-Original Message-
From:
In traditional architectural terms a lintel is the piece between two
vertical supports over a portal, so it could (and often is) used to
describe the header span not only over doors but also windows.
SML
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
I have 68 psi at 1570 gpm...
- Original Message -
From: Roland Huggins rhugg...@firesprinkler.org
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc:
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Forward Flow Testing of BFP's
The latest issue of Sprinkler Age has an article addressing
There was once a white paper that discussed Porches and Tractors when it came
to Velocities...
From: rhugg...@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Exposed threads
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 13:45:02 -0700
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Just like the velocity limit of 32ft/s rule.
Written by one of those Terp FPEs, right?
Sent from my iPhone
On May 13, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo
prodesigngr...@msn.com wrote:
There was once a white paper that discussed Porches and Tractors when it came
to Velocities...
From: rhugg...@firesprinkler.org
Now that is a tease if I ever heard one. so spill it!!
Mark at Aero
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sprinkler
Academy - C Bilbo
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:22 PM
To:
Forward Flow Testing of BFP's Flushing of FDC's
Interesting how these two topics came up relatively in quick succession, and
more interesting how you can achieve both (even though it's not in the
constitution ;-)
1) Install Bypass Piping around the FDC Check
2) Install Storz Connections or
My porch has no velocity. It just sits out front of the house.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 13, 2013, at 3:21 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo
prodesigngr...@msn.com wrote:
There was once a white paper that discussed Porches and Tractors when it came
to Velocities...
From:
One size of the nut thickness?
Regards,
Le Vu Phong
Mobile: +84 (0) 902 363 525
phong_indochineengineering
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John
I am guessing that somewhere on the AFSA website, there is a white paper that
one Roland Huggins wrote some years ago about putting tractor tires on a
PORSCHE (not front porch) it involved the idea of taking a design that
was meant to do a very good job, and making it into something that
No just wants 3 threads showing if 150 PSI 5 threads if more. We normally use
NBK that comes with the fittings.
The are marked with the ANSI marks. Never had any work loose. Even on diesel
pumps that do get run like the should.
I have complied with his request. If it exist I would like to find
Try this one on for originality. The great City of Phoenix is set to amend the
requirements of all the NFPA standards regarding FDC's. They will now require
an industrial complex supplied by a fire pump taking suction from the city
main, to have an FDC on the pump discharge and in addition, an
NFPA 13 requires baffles (between sprinklers) to be non-combustible or
limited-combustible. The contractor has installed plexi-glass baffles, and
claims that is what is normally used and has been approved on previous
projects.
Any comments?
Tony
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