Re: Dry system return bend - aux drain needed?

[Forest Wilson]

What a horrible waste of time. Hopefully this wasnt your local government
inspector asking this. If so, you should call the mayor and ask to be
reimbursed. Of course you dont need a drain on every sprinkler.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Dewayne Martinez <
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> wrote:

> NFPA 13 (07ed)
>
>
>
> Section 8.16.2.5.3.3 states that aux drains are not required for pipe
> drops supplying dry-pendant sprinklers installed per 7.2.2
>
> 7.2.2 address both listed dry type sprinklers and pendant sprinklers
> installed on a return bend in a heated space
>
>
>
> I have someone questioning if aux drains are required for pendant
> sprinklers on return bends because they not specifically “dry-pendant”.  I
> have always figured that if they were in section 7.2.2 then no aux drain
> would be needed.  What say’s the forum on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Dewayne
>
>
>
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Re: Fire dept. connection

[Forest Wilson]

Well, the internal swing check will not function peroperly in a vertical
position

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Lévis Blanchet 
wrote:

> Concerning FDC installation like a 2-1/2’’ siamese connection Y-pattern,
>
> is there any official reference pertaining to orientation requirement that
> enforced the positioning on an horizontal plan?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Lévis Blanchet *Représentant technique
> Technical Representative
> lblanc...@vikingfire.ca | 514-332-5110 #11575 <(514)%20332-5110>
>
> If you no longer want to be contacted electronically from this company,
> you can Unsubscribe
>  from future
> correspondence. Privacy and disclaimer
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>
> Si vous souhaitez ne plus recevoir de communications électroniques de
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> correspondance future. Confidentialité et renonciation
> 
>
> *De :* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *De la part de* Russell & Carol Gregory
> *Envoyé :* Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:07 AM
> *À :* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Objet :* RE: Am I reading this right?
>
>
>
> I was trying to be logical about the obstructions in the inner core
> discharge, which FM are so concerned with. Having a ‘cross’ of two 100mm
> wide obstructions seems totally untenable.
>
> You can’t put a Pendent ESFR over a 100mm wide bottom chord so the only
> difference with an Upright is the Range Pipe and the yoke shadow.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Russell Gregory
>
> Christchurch
>
> New Zealand
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org ] *On Behalf Of *
> mphe...@aerofire.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 28 March 2017 3:41 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Am I reading this right?
>
>
>
> If what you are saying is true, and I'm not questioning your statement,
> then this condition would not allow the lower obstruction to be the bottom
> chord of a steel bar joist or open web wood joist because the range pipe
> would need to be centered in the web of the joist and parallel to the
> joist, a physical impossibility. The obstruction would have to be something
> other than a structural member. Is this your experience?
>
> Mark at Aero
>
> 602 820-7894 <(602)%20820-7894>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2017, at 7:05 PM, Russell & Carol Gregory <
> rcgreg...@snap.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Because an Upright ESFR sprinkler can be connected directly to a Range
> Pipe of up to 100mm NB thus it is tested with an obstruction to core
> discharge. The  Upright ESFR sprinkler must have the yoke arms aligned with
> the Range Pipe therefore the obstruction is in the shadow area from the
> yoke arms.
>
> Accordingly another obstruction of up to 100mm wide may be positioned
> below the Upright ESFR, PROVIDING it is directly below the Upright  ESFR
> and is ALIGNED with the Range Pipe. If it is other than *directly below*
> and * parallel* with the Range Pipe then it is not permitted within the
> Core so must be at least 300mm away from below the Upright ESFR.
>
> I have seen it stated that Upright ESFR are more tolerant of obstructions
> to Core Discharge but I believe this is not the case as the arrangement
> must be as I have described.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Russell Gregory
>
> Christchurch
>
> New Zealand
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org ] *On Behalf Of *Vince
> Sabolik
> *Sent:* Monday, 27 March 2017 11:53 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Am I reading this right?
>
>
>
> NFPA 13, 2013
>
> 8.12.5.3.2.1   The requirements of 8.12.5.3.2 shall not apply
> where upright sprinklers are located over the bottom chords of bar joists
> or open trusses that are
> 4 in. (102 mm) maximum in width.
>
> Does this mean that an upright ESFR can be at or near center of a bar
> joist?
>
> Thanks, Vince
>
>
> 
>
> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
> Strongsville, Ohio 44136
> Phone 440 238-4800 <(440)%20238-4800> Fax 440 238-4876 <(440)%20238-4876>
> Cell 440 724-7601 <(440)%20724-7601>
>
>
> * Vince Sabolik *
>
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Re: Polybutylene

[Forest Wilson]

I did some work on an assisted living facility years ago with this piping.
what do you mean by adapter?

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:26 PM,  wrote:

> A client of mine has a system that was installed with polybutylene pipe.
> Now some sprinklers need to be relocated. Is there any kind of adapter that
> would allow you to modify one of these?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 <(860)%20535-2080> (ofc)
> 860-553-3553 <(860)%20553-3553> (fax)
> 860-608-4559 <(860)%20608-4559> (cell)
>
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Re: Another NFPA 25 Question - Controllers

[Forest Wilson]

Years ago, I completed the Fire Pump Technician Certification Training
through Peerless Pump Company at their headquarters, under a great guy
named Pete Noll.
The FireTrol controller rep also trained the students and certified them.
The course was designed for a technician to be competent to perform work on
the controller and pump. PPE has ALWAYS been required per OSHA. Most
sprinkler companies and many fire pump sales reps are too ignorant to use
the PPE. This obviously includes proper gloves, boots, rubber mat, eyewear,
etc. The AFSA worked with OSHA years ago to develop a very basic safety
program for the industry but what I did (when I was in business) was
contact the OSHA and Workers Comp Small Business Rep and they worked with
me (even made worksite observations) to develop a good safety plan.


On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 7:32 AM, John Denhardt  wrote:

> My personal opinion - no.
>
> John August Denhardt, P.E.
> Strickland Fire Protection
>
> On Mar 27, 2017, at 6:34 AM, John Irwin  criticalsystemsolutions.com> wrote:
>
> What are an inspector’s responsibilities when it comes to opening up a
> fire pump controller? One of our inspector’s wants me to buy him some PPE
> so he can comfortably open up the fire pump controller. I am certainly not
> opposed to this but I have talked to a number of inspectors at other
> companies who say if there isn’t an external meter on the cabinet, the
> voltage isn’t getting recorded. Should sprinkler inspectors even be in the
> cabinet?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *John Irwin - CET*
>
> *Division Manager – Fire Sprinklers *
>
> *Critical System Solutions, LLC*
>
>
> *License Number: FPC16-53 *2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
> St. Petersburg, FL  33716
> Office: 727.209.5122 <(727)%20209-5122>
>
> Fax:  727.209.5126 <(727)%20209-5126>
>
> Cell: 813.618.2781 <(813)%20618-2781>
>
> Email:  jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: NFPA 25 - exercising hose valves

[Forest Wilson]

The owner is responsible for maintaining the system, not the contractor.
In your contract, specify that you do not perform the valve exercise and
the owner is responsible.
You can't force a property owner to pay you to exercise the valves.

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017, Roland Huggins 
wrote:

> Sounds to me like an opportunity to discuss with your client what an
> inadequate job the prior inspectors were doing.
>
>
> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
> American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
> Dallas, TX
> http://www.firesprinkler.org
>
> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2017, at 6:51 AM, John Irwin  criticalsystemsolutions.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> These are the answers I was hoping to receive.
>
> Thank you everyone.
>
> *John Irwin - CET*
>
>
>
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Re: I Roles and Responsibilities

[Forest Wilson]

Unfortunately the contractors in this industry have really failed to
collaborate on a standard response to this question.
There was a knowledgeable insurance rep who used to comment on these
questions but he hasn't for some time.
The legal recommendation seems to be to "see no evil hear no evil."
Do you see a terrorist training camp doing the inspection? Dont document
it.
Recalled fire sprinklers? Dont document it.
Missing fire sprinklers? Dont document it.
A stupid China made pressure gauge that is 5 years old? Document that
because it's in NFPA 25.

On Sep 2, 2016 9:40 AM, "John Allen, CET, CFPS" <
jal...@allenfireandsecurity.com> wrote:

> I have a couple questions that pertain to the roles and responsibilities
> of a water-based inspector.
>
> 1st Question: Should an inspector inspect water-based systems outside the
> requirements of NFPA 25?  For example, NFPA 25 has no dialogue about 3-way
> shutoff valves for gauges.  However, NFPA 13 (2013) clearly defines the
> requirement of such:
>
> NFPA 13 (2013) 8.17.3.2Each gauge connection shall be equipped with a
> shutoff valve and provisions for draining.
>
> Therefore, if a 3-way shutoff valve is missing from installation, does
> this justify a non-compliant tag on the sprinkler riser and correction
> actions items identified to the owner(s)?
>
> 2nd Question: If there is a gap between my sprinkler head and the ceiling
> membrane, does this require a non-compliant tag on the riser.   NFPA 101
> outlines this as a smoke partition/barrier issue. NFPA 101 states:
>
> NFPA 101  (2000) - 8.2.4 Smoke Partitions.
> 8.2.4.1 Where required elsewhere in this Code, smoke partitions shall be
> provided to limit the transfer of smoke.
> 8.2.4.2 Smoke partitions shall extend from the floor to the underside of
> the floor or roof deck above, through any concealed spaces, such as those
> above suspended ceilings, and through interstitial structural and technical
> spaces.
> Exception:* Smoke partitions shall be permitted to terminate at the
> underside of a monolithic or suspended ceiling system where the following
> conditions are met:
> (a) The ceiling system forms a continuous membrane.
> (b) A smoketight joint is provided between the top of the smoke partition
> and the bottom of the suspended ceiling.
> (c) The space above the ceiling is not used as a plenum.
>
>  Again, NFPA 25 does not identify this as a deficiency.  Should this be
> justified as non-compliant deficiency?
>
> I do understand the role and responsibility of an inspection does not
> include the design of a water-based systems or of building code.  However,
> when faced with a deficiency from installation (from other codes), should
> it not be identified and corrected under the inspection and testing of a
> water-based system?
>
> I look forward to your feedback and thoughts.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> John Allen, CET, CFPS
> President
>
>
>
> AFS: Allen Fire & Security
> Your Safety is Our Success
> Direct: 770.715.7261 | Office: 770.723.7280 Ext 2 | Fax: 678.894.4180
>
>
>   Please consider the environment before printing this email
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Unsubscribe

[Forest Wilson]

It's been great being on this forum for years. The people on here are great
and I'll always remember the kindness and dedication of George Church.

I'm leaving the industry to get a degree in biology and hopefully be
admitted to a medical school.

Best wishes for health and prosperity to all.

Forest Wilson

On Aug 9, 2016 11:17 AM, "David Autry" <da...@mfp-inc.com> wrote:

> If you’re in West Des Moines, IA……. You will protect it, no matter what.
>
>
>
> David Autry
>
>
>
> Meininger Fire Protection
>
> 2521 West L Street, Suite 5
>
> Lincoln, NE 68522
>
> 402.466.2616
>
> 402.466.2617 fax
>
> da...@mfp-inc.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hairfield
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 9:30 AM
> *To:* Sprinkler Forum
> *Subject:* Combustible Concealed Space
>
>
>
> I have a AHJ telling me that even though the space is completely filled
> with noncombustible
>
> insulation that sprinkler protection is still going to be required.
>
>
>
> I'm I missing something here?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
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Re: RPZ Configuration

[Forest Wilson]

Provision for forward flow test

On Aug 4, 2016 3:49 PM, "Brian Harris"  wrote:

> Seem to be having a brain cramp today. Have an RPZ inside the Riser room
> with the FDC connection downstream with a flow switch and ITC. For some
> reason it just looks weird. For a single system what else is required
> downstream of the RPZ?
>
>
>
> *Brian Harris, CET*
>
> BVS Systems Inc.
>
> Sprinkler Division
>
> bvssystemsinc.com
>
> Phone: 704.896.9989
>
> Fax: 704.896.1935
>
>
>
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Re: Gloves for cutting machine

[Forest Wilson]

Long loose hair is also inadvisable.
In fact the older manufacturer manuals used to specify that only naked bald
persons should operate the machine.

On Jul 22, 2016 9:28 AM, "M.A Nelson"  wrote:

> I would also recommend against necklaces/ chains and long loose sleeves.
>
> Michael A Nelson
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 22, 2016, at 09:22, Richard Carr  wrote:
>
> No gloves are best for power machines.
>
>
>
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Justin Stewart 
> Date: 7/22/16 9:12 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Gloves for cutting machine
>
> I know this is random however, what's the best gloves for threading
> machines?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin Stewart
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Re: Sprinkler above freezer unit

[Forest Wilson]

I agree. Maybe move the sprinkler head

On Jul 22, 2016 9:25 AM, "Todd Williams"  wrote:

> I got a call from someone who has had a problem with a sprinkler in one
> specific area accidentally discharging. This has occurred multiple times.
> It is in a 0 - 14 degree freezer and is located directly over a chiller
> unit. The chiller unit goes in to defrost mode 4x per day. The sprinkler is
> a 286 degree, 1/2". Mechanical damage is not a possibility and the branch
> line is free of ice (obviously a dry system). I have  not visited the site
> yet (most likely Monday) but a contractor client has. He has no
> explanation. My only thought at this point is if there is an issue with
> heat cycling. Any ideas?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> Sent using CloudMagic
> 
>
>
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Re: Elevator piping

[Forest Wilson]

In addition to this forum, I would also consult the Elevator Code. Maybe
call your state elevator code inspector.
How will you do the stunt trip if you arrange the piping this way?

On Jul 22, 2016 7:47 AM, "Dewayne Martinez" 
wrote:

> Can I run pipe into the elevator shaft, supply the head in the pit and
> then use the same pipe to supply and terminate in the elevator  machine
> room?  I have done the opposite order and supplied the machine room first
> then the head in the pit but that was only one penetration through the
> elevator shaft.  This job I am on is out of sequence for the build so I
> can’t supply it the normal way but they still want the elevator in service.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dewayne
>
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Re: Auxiliary dry valve drains

[Forest Wilson]

The drain test is needed if it is downstream of a valve. Every valve needs
exercised, and a flow test needs conducted after the closed valve is
restored to the open position.

On Jul 18, 2016 1:05 PM, "rongreenman ."  wrote:

> John has stated and defended. Mike has stated. Mike, defend your position.
> I'll side with John, using his defense and add that that only one main
> drain test is needed for any lead-in, no matter how many systems and
> auxiliary systems it supplies if all originate from the same header. And,
> as an aside, the test is half useless without having the original test date
> and the latest test data to compare against.
>
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Mike Hairfield  wrote:
>
>> Yes
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Sprinklerforum 
>> on behalf of Todd Williams 
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 18, 2016 11:55 AM
>> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> *Subject:* Auxiliary dry valve drains
>>
>> Are full flow 2" drain tests required for auxiliary dry valves?
>>
>> Todd G Williams, PE
>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>> Stonington, CT
>> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>>
>> Sent using CloudMagic
>> 
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ron Greenman
>
> 4110 Olson Dr., NW
> Gig Harbor, WA 98335
>
> rongreen...@gmail.com
>
> 253.576.9700
>
> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
> inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
>
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RE: Installing ceiling tile

[Forest Wilson]

The answer depends on your relationship with the GC.
For example, there is a private owner I have done work for years. We cut
the ceiling tile on his remodels and expansions. I don't think he has even
shopped for another bid in his work.

Others will nickel and dime subs to death. It depends on the contract
language and the relationship you have or want to have.

On Jul 15, 2016 1:55 PM, "Ed Kramer"  wrote:

> Is the GC also asking the electrical sub to install tiles where there's can
> lights?  Or the HVAC sub to install tiles where there's HVAC penetrations?
> Or the  to install tiles where there's  device name here>?  If it's not in your contract, it not in your contract.
>
> Ed Kramer
> Bamford Fire Sprinkler
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Justin Stewart
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 10:37 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Installing ceiling tile
>
> I have a situation where the gc is telling me I have to cut the hole and
> install all the ceiling till where my sprinkler heads are located. Checked
> my contract and all bid documents and it states nothing about the sprinkler
> contractor installing ceiling tiles where sprinkler heads will be located.
> Just curious how other companies approach this situation?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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RE: Test header on riser

[Forest Wilson]

Why do you need to demonstrate the flow rate? The purpose of the forward
flow test is to fully operate the back flow valve. A flow at 500 GPM will
not open the valve fully?

On Jul 14, 2016 9:52 AM, "David Williams" 
wrote:

> As an engineer who just issued a design with such a test header (COE
> project where they “suggested” we look at this provision in the design). My
> view is that the FDC is fine for project with less than 500 gpm flow
> requirements. If over that (and in my case the flow was 1100 gpm), then we
> need a test header so we can properly demonstrate the flow rate.
>
>
>
> *David Toshio Williams, FPE, LEED-AP O+M*
>
> *(218) 279-2436 <%28218%29%20279-2436> direct | (218) 310-2446
> <%28218%29%20310-2446> cell*
>
> *LHB, Inc. | PERFORMANCE **DRIVEN **DESIGN*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Todd
> Williams
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:16 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Test header on riser
>
>
>
> We installed a by-pass on the FDC line for the forward flow test, but he
> wants a test header as well.
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
>
>
> Sent using CloudMagic
> 
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Ryan Labrie <
> rlab...@criticalsystemsolutions.com> wrote:
>
> I have installed a test header on a riser to do a flow test of a backflow,
> take a look at NFPA #13 2010 10.10.2.5
>
>
>
> *Ryan Labrie*
>
> Fire Protection Designer
>
>
>
>
> *Critical System Solutions, LLC *2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
> St. Petersburg, FL  33716
> Office: 727.209.5122
>
> Fax:  727.209.5126
>
> Cell: 813.394.3978
>
> Email:  rlab...@criticalsystemsolutions.com
>
>
>
> [image: CSS Logo]
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [
> mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Michael
> Hill
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:55 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Test header on riser
>
>
>
> Have not heard of this before. Perhaps he wants to do forward flow test
> for backflow preventer?
>
>
>
> Mike Hill
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [
> mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Todd
> Williams
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:41 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Test header on riser
>
>
>
> Is there any requirement to install a test header on a riser without a
> pump (In addition to arrangement for full flow FDC test)? I have an
> engineer insisting that it is. When I asked for referenced, I get the "you
> look it up" response. Just want to be sure before I scream back
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
>
>
> Sent using CloudMagic
> 
>
>
>
>
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RE: Base of riser on placards

[Forest Wilson]

I also compare to the plaque. In at least 2 cases, I found closed street
valves as a result. Acceptance testing is shoddy in many regions.
On Jul 11, 2016 11:14 AM, "Steve Leyton"  wrote:

> I’m not sure what’s to disagree with.   If you see a static pressure on
> the gauge (it could be during a visual and not just a main drain test)
> that’s near or lower than the BOR residual demand on the calc’ card, then
> you potentially have a problem.   This is just comparative metrics:  the
> question was (if I’m recalling and paraphrasing correctly), where do we
> (composite Forum) locate the BOR node for purposes of recording the
> information on the calc’ card?And I said at the riser gauge for the
> reasons I’ve mentioned.  I’m haven’t recommended any measure of “testing”
> or any other steps beyond what’s already prescribed in NFPA 25.
>
>
>
> In our little incident, the owner bit the bullet and paid for it because
> the fire department stepped up and acknowledged that they had furnished the
> information based on the address side and not the connection side of the
> building.   If they hadn’t  … who knows?
>
>
> SL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Ben Young
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 5:30 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Base of riser on placards
>
>
>
> Steve,
>
> I have to respectfully disagree with you on this.  My main concern would
> be the fact that the drain and gauge are so close together.  On a riser
> manifold, the gauge is usually directly across or slightly above the drain
> location.  That would be equivalent to taking the residual pressure from a
> flowing hydrant, wouldn't it?
>
> In addition, as my original post alluded to, if your BOR node is on the
> suction side of the backflow preventer, the lower flow from the drain or
> inspectors test will create a higher friction loss from the backflow than
> was accounted for during the hydraulic calculations (normally, I'm sure not
> all BFPs have that larger pressure loss at lower flows, but most I've seen
> do,).
>
> Just out of curiosity as well, how long was the installing sprinkler
> contractor blamed for that issue you had?
>
> I guess my point is, we already have acceptance testing in NFPA 13, as
> well as hydraulic calculation procedures, licensing (in most states) etc.
>
> Using the main drain test for anything other than an NFPA 25 inspection
> point is slippery slope that I don't think we should be going down.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> Benjamin Young
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Steve Leyton 
> wrote:
>
> I’ve always looked at it as a red-flag benchmark.   The residual demand at
> BOR takes static lift and friction loss to the remote area into account, so
> if I do a main drain test and I look at the calc’ card and read that the
> demand is … whatever, 63.5 PSI @ 331.7 GPM.   And then I look at the gauge
> and it says 89 PSI static.  And then I open the main drain and residual
> drops to 81 PSI … great.  But if I open that drain and it drops to 60 PSI
> or if look at static and it says 68 PSI and then drops to 60 … then
> something is amiss.I have actually seen commissioning testing where the
> main drain flow test on final inspection called attention to the fact that
> the flow test was taken on a different main than the one feeding the
> system.   And it turned out that the one feeding the system was separated
> from the rest of the public system zone by a pressure regulating station.
> And that the entire system was not hydraulically capable of meeting its
> demand.
>
>
>
> Extreme example to be sure but if you have even a passing understanding of
> hydraulics, comparing the main drain test results to the BOR demand is a
> substantive metric.
>
>
>
> SL
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *rongreenman
> .
> *Sent:* Friday, July 08, 2016 10:29 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Base of riser on placards
>
>
>
> So I have the total demand at the BOR and the expected pressure loss from
> static with the entire design area flowing. How does a main drain test
> simulate this? My understanding of the main drain test is a comparative
> analysis of pressure drop as recorded at acceptance from the Contractor's
> Above Ground Materials and Test Certificate with the pressure drop at the
> time of the test. I presume that original data is what is noted under the
> area of the placard for "Supply Data" and is irrelevant regarding the
> calculations.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Steve Leyton 
> wrote:
>
> The information of value at least once a year when you do the main drain
> test.   Maybe you could add both BOR and Source demands, but I don’t agree
> with posting Source data in lieu of BOR.
>
>
>
> SL
>
>
>
> 

Re: Sodium Silicate

[Forest Wilson]

I encountered a similar situation a few years ago. I would send a letter to
the ahj and owner explaining what you found and notify them the system may
be impaired.
Suggest lab testing to confirm if needed and then ask the ahj for guidance.
On Jun 16, 2016 8:21 PM, "Jeff Bridges"  wrote:

> We found some- actually quite a bit, of sodium silicate, in the FDC drop
> above the check valve (about 3” thick 4” diameter).
>
> The FDC is located off the end of the feed main side of a gridded system.
>
> This is after doing a 100 head TI where we didn’t see anything unusual
> from the branch piping.
>
> NFPA 25 Annex D.5 directs a flushing of the entire system.
>
> Am I correct?
>
>
>
> Jeff Bridges
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Unconnected sprinklers

[Forest Wilson]

Besides a false impression upon building occupants (many of whom don't
notice sprinklers anyway), one must consider false impressions upon first
responders or insurance agents.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Frans Stoop  wrote:

> Gentlemen,
>
> Thank you very much.
> I overlooked the phrase NFPA 1 and NFPA 101 and the Annexes.
> In particular the Annex is very clear.
>
> The IFC does not apply in our country, but I will use the quoted phrase to
> emphasize that it is common practice in our profession to avoid a false
> impression of safety or fire protection by visible but non-functional
> devices.
>
> Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
>
> Frans Stoop
> Riskonet B.V.
> Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
> T +31 6542 37 642
> www.riskonet.com
> frans.st...@riskonet.com
>
>
> At 22:13 11-4-2016 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Eventually, we all run into this construction cart-before-the-horse
>> phasing situation where you just cannot say no to the client. Once, using
>> the defense that those observing fire sprinklers who would know what a fire
>> sprinkler looks like in order to perceive a space as being protected by
>> fire protection equipment, the exposed construction, unconnected upright
>> sprinklers were to be installed with florescent yellow tennis balls split
>> open and placed over each sprinkler. Perhaps that put a grin on some
>> sprinkler fitter.
>>
>> Allans Seidel
>> St. Louis, MO
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 11, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Foster, Ed  wrote:
>> >
>> > The International Fire Code; Section 901.4 Installation may apply.
>> > And Section 901.4.5 Reads:
>> > Appearance of equipment. Any device that has the physical appearance of
>> life safety or fire protection equipment but does not perform that life
>> safety or fire protection function shall be prohibited.
>>
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Re: Date on gauges

[Forest Wilson]

Regarding the 5 year gauge replacement, I have seen too much focus on this
component by both contractors and AHJ's.
The gauge replacement is only one item as part of a 5 year maintenance
interval. Internal inspection of piping is much more important than
replacing the cheap, Chinese made plastic gauges.
Too often, contractors will replace the gauges and that's all they do every
5 years.
Besides, if they gauges are tested every 5 years with a calibrated gauge
they could be used 200 years if they pass every 5 years.

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Charles G Key  wrote:

> Mike, I think where he is coming from is he is used to seeing the dates on
> the face of the gauges and now the date is missing. He is asking if the
> code
> changed or why are the dates are no longer required.
>
>
>
> C.Gregg Key SET
> Key Fire Protection Enterprises,LLC
> 3200 Mike Padgett Hwy.
> Augusta, GA. 30906
> 706-790-3473 Office
> 706-738-2119 Facsimile
> 706-220-8821 Mobile
> gr...@keyfps.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Morey, Mike
> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 1:01 PM
> To: Sprinkler Forum 
> Subject: Re: Date on gauges
>
> We just have our guys write the month and year in paint marker on the back
> when they put them in.  If an AHJ wants more than something reasonable like
> that or the stickers you mentioned, ask them to direct you to the code
> requirement, or even just say "we can't find this in the code, can you help
> us understand what you want" and if it's reasonable, just do it, if it's
> not, back to the "show me".
>
> Mike Morey, CFPS, SET
> Planner Scheduler/Designer
> BMWC Constructors, Inc.
> 1740 W. Michigan St, Indianapolis, IN 46222
> O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111
> mo...@bmwc.com | www.bmwc.com
>
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum  on
> behalf of Jay Stough 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:54 PM
> To: Sprinkler Forum
> Subject: Re: Date on gauges
>
> It does not state anywhere in 25 about where the date comes from, just
> replace or tested every 5 years.  In the 2014 edition of the NFPA 25
> Handbook on page 153 after 5.3.2.2, it states that the 5 year period is
> based on the install date not the manufacture date.  Try telling that to an
> AHJ!
>
> *Jay Stough*
> NICET IV LAYOUT
> NICET III ITM
>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Charles G Key  wrote:
>
> > Where can I find the requirement for the date being printed on the gauge?
> > Some new gauges are coming out with only a sticker that you can write
> > the date on and put on gauge.
> >
> >
> >
> > C.Gregg Key SET
> > Key Fire Protection Enterprises,LLC
> > 3200 Mike Padgett Hwy.
> > Augusta, GA. 30906
> > 706-790-3473 Office
> > 706-738-2119 Facsimile
> > 706-220-8821 Mobile
> > gr...@keyfps.com
> >
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RE: Antifreeze system

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

What was the concentration of the propylene glycol you filled with and its 
freeze point?


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message From: Douglas Hicks 
<fire...@eoni.com> Date:10/20/2015  10:59 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: 
Antifreeze system 
We installed an isolation valve on an propylene glycol antifreeze loop.  
Unfortunately, we were told the system was about 55 gallons. It was closer to 
90 gallons.  We only had enough antifreeze for 60 gallons.  We used what 
antifreeze we had, and finished the job with straight water.  My thought was to 
drain the water, monitoring the liquid until we got to the antifreeze.  Then we 
would fill the system with an antifreeze mix.

Today, we returned  to the job site with  30 gallons of antifreeze.  We closed 
the isolation valve and drained out 5 gallons.  The drained water tested  to 
15°F.  We tested the fluid at the other end of the piping.  It also tested 
15°F. I thought the antifreeze loop was a closed system.  How did the 
antifreeze and water get mixed in a closed pipe system?  

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
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Re: AHJ Powers

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

I've been in situations where i ask the general contractor to sign a waiver or 
argue with the AHJ...and what often ends up happening is the general uses 
another sprinkler sub on the next job.

Sure, legal liability is protected. But what about the next job?


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message From: John Drucker 
<jdruc...@redbanknj.org> Date:09/01/2015  10:06 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: 
AHJ Powers 
Craig, read 104.10 carefully. My writings parallel this code section 
which has not been satisfied. Also keep in mind that the conflict section of 
the IBC is mandatory language which trumps subjective language. The IBC 
contains prescriptive language regarding Protection of balconies that is not in 
the NFPA standard, does that negate the IBC requirement ?

John Drucker - Mobile Email
jdruc...@redbanknj.org<mailto:jdruc...@redbanknj.org>
Cell/Text 732-904-6823


craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:

Here's the difference in the PVC versus chain issue.

I could defend the chaining option based on the NFPA 13 standard since it is a 
viable alternative recognized by the fire sprinkler industry and established by 
the knowledge base of the authors of the NFPA Standards.  So while the Code 
states the valves are to be electronically supervised, this is a recognized 
option.

I could not defend using Shoe-Goo on PVC pipe because the AHJ said so if it 
wasn't documented as a viable option in any trade or industry standard or Code. 
 I'd have nothing to use as a defense for the choice.

Now per the IBC, there is language that grants permission to the code official 
to allow modifications to the code requirements based on unique conditions.  If 
the code official then uses an already established and accepted guideline such 
as NFPA 13 as a reason or source for his alternate direction and that decision 
complies with the directive as noted below, there is no dereliction.
IBC 2012
[A] 104.10 Modifications. Wherever there are practical difficulties
involved in carrying out the provisions of this code,
the building official shall have the authority to grant modifications
for individual cases, upon application of the owner or
owner's representative, provided the building official shall
first find that special individual reason makes the strict letter
of this code impractical and the modification is in compliance
with the intent and purpose of this code and that such modification
does not lessen health, accessibility, life and fire
safety, or structural requirements. The details of action granting
modifications shall be recorded and entered in the files of
the department of building safety.

Good food for thought as we often get sucked into these "the AHJ said 
" issues where there is nothing more to stand on than that one 
person's opinion.



Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 9:38 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: AHJ Powers

Members,

Someone's responsible.  Craig I agree with part of your thinking, if the 
sprinkler contractor was not responsible for the actual electrically supervised 
side of the equation, then mount the supervisory devices and so note in the 
final documentation making certain that the lack of electrical supervision is 
so noted.  Some sprinkler contractors go even further and provide a written 
quote to provide same and document an owners refusal therein making a 
reasonable attempt to fulfil the code requirements. Keep in mind that code 
officials are typically immune where there actions are not considered gross 
negligence, ie he/she made a mistake.  This immunity typically doesn't extend 
to other parties, I,e, the code official said it was ok that's my defense.  
That doesn't hold up as design professionals and contractors have a duty to 
comply.  For example if the code official said it was ok to use any kind of 
cement on cpvc would you ?

Food for thought.  As always the disclaimer.the preceding is not a legal 
opinion, nor the opinion of the borough of red bank but merely an informal 
observation, always c

Re: What is 'base of riser'?

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Yea but a good practice is to compare the main drain tests to the first test, 
not the plaque 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected 
by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by 
mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you 
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div Original message /divdivFrom: rongreenman . 
rongreen...@gmail.com /divdivDate:08/21/2015  11:21 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
/divdivTo: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org /divdivSubject: Re: 
What is 'base of riser'? /divdiv
/divThirty plus years of doing this stuff and that's the first time I've heard
a rational reason for defining a BOR. I've heard all of Ed's and they all
make sense but the rationale is not always solid. I've personally always
used the transition point from UG to system (or actually six inches above
finished floor since that's the usual contract language for the location of
the UG flange) but Leyton makes more sense. And I hate it when I have to
admit that.

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
wrote:

 Since the ongoing benchmark for the life of the system is the main drain
 test, I've always set our BOR node at the rough elevation of the drain
 valve.   3-4' AFF.

 Steve L.





 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed
 Kramer
 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 7:31 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: What is 'base of riser'?

 This may have been discussed previously, I don't recall.

 Assume  an underground fire service enters a building, multiple system
 risers are located in an interior mechanical room approx 50' from the
 stub-in location.  In the mechanical room there is a backflow prevention
 device and multiple system risers.  Where is the base of riser - you
 know, the base of riser that listed on the hydraulic design placard?

 a)  At the bottom of each individual system riser - a slightly
 different
 physical location for each system?

 b)  At the discharge side of the backflow prevention device?

 c)  At the inlet side of the backflow prevention device?

 d)  At the underground flange?



 I'm curious how others see this.



 Ed Kramer

 Lawrence, KS

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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

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inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: Holding Cells

[Forest Wilson]

I think this happens all the time in jails.
A local county told me that it regularly happens and he intentionally just lets 
the water flow a little longer to drench the prisoners that intentionally set 
them off.
 
Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor

forest_wil...@aol.com


 
 
-Original Message-
From: Ben Young derblitzkrie...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2015 7:15 am
Subject: Re: Holding Cells


This is the dirty little secret of institutional sprinkler heads... They
sell
them as being hard to tamper with, or not being able to support the
weight of a
person who is trying to commit suicide, or not having any parts
that are
useable as a weapon, but that's not what they're really designed
for.  The only
thing truly required of them is that once the heads are
activated, its
impossible to to stop the waterflow.  The orifices are all
shielded so you
can't stick anything in between it and the deflectors.  If
someone wants to set
a sprinkler head off, they're going to do it, you know?

And allow me to
qualify, by 'they' in the second sentence above, I'm
referring to people in
general and our industry.  I was not referring to
any specific manufacturer or
them as a whole, that would be false
advertising.

The heads are definitely
tamper resistant, and they make it hard to take
apart or get into, but nothing
is tamper proof, especially something that
already relies on something breaking
to work.


The pre-action system would definitely help with the waterflow,
but you'll
still be replacing sprinklers, and you may want to run that past the
AHJ to
get their buy-in.
I think the only fool-proof method is not putting the
heads inside the
holding cells.  Do the cells have open bars for walls, or are
they solid?
If they're solid, then you'd have to put the detection in there as
well, so
now they can just tamper with those.


Benjamin Young

On Thu,
Jul 9, 2015 at 5:56 AM, Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net wrote:

 I'm a
little out of it with respect to sprinkler protection in holding
 cells.
 I
have a client with a current issue of detainees going after and damaging
 the
institutional heads in their area station holding areas.  This summer
 damage
has skyrocketed and they've had systems going off almost weekly.
 We've almost
exhausted their spare head stock in 2 stations and replacing
 these are not as
easy as a standard pendent.  It seems it's become the
 'thing to do' to
disrupt and get out of the holding cell until morning
 court.  They remove
belts and shoes but have video of detainees literally
 punching heads until
they go off.
 Many stations have different heads.
 These are all wet systems
and control valves are mostly located away from
 normal operations so it takes
them a little while to shut down and
 evacuate.
 Last week we had a ton of
discharge water.  By the time they cuffed them,
 put them in vans and dealt
with fire department response and shut down, it
 was half an hour.
 I
thought about guards but they might hold back covers or linkages.
 Have any of
you ever designed preaction systems for these applications?
 I'm
 thinking
this might help deal with the issues, at least for waterflow.

 Tom
Duross

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Re: GE fire COMMENT

[Forest Wilson]

 Unless it is equipped with the old style sprinklers which spray 40% above the 
sprinkler.

 

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-736-0425
forest_wil...@aol.com


 

 

-Original Message-
From: MPhelps mphe...@aerofire.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2015 12:36 pm
Subject: RE: GE fire COMMENT


There was a large structure fire in Mesa Azizona at a new Apple facility last
month. 1,000,000sf  plus facility. The fire originated under the rooftop solar
array and the fire caused a large area of the roof to collapse.
Mark at
Aero
602 820-7894

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 9:04 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: GE fire COMMENT

Very
possible and wasn't there a fire that started in the roof system of a warehouse
this year or last?  Fire started in the roofing system and spread uncontrolled
since it was above the sprinklers.  

I know of one here in SC where lighting
hit the building and caused some significant damage including disabling the fire
sprinkler system.  Bldg was a total loss including all the contents (tires). 


Same issue with the photovoltaic panels on roofs.  Fires can start on the
roof and spread to the roof and no internal sprinkler system will ever activate
until it breaches the building which is not going to do anything to a fire above
the sprinklers.

Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group
Lead
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 
29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension 
74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


-Original Message-
From:
Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf
Of Jack Cahit Kilavuz
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 10:38 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: GE fire COMMENT

I would
say quite possible.
More frequent causes include faulty electrical connections,
faulty/imperfect electrical equipment (fluorescent starters, thermostats
etc.)
directly attached to it.
Cheers


On 6 April 2015 at 17:28,
accentf...@aol.com wrote:

 Ladies/Gentlemen:

 I watched NBC News that
night and they stated it may have  started 
 with a lightning strike on the
roof...My conjecture: Possibly igniting 
 insulating foam below roof
deck...and, above the  sprinklers?? Your 
 thoughts, por favor?

 Jerry

_accentfire@aol.com_ (mailto:accentf...@aol.com)

 Jerry D. Watts, SFPE

President  Co-Founder
 ACCENT FIRE ENGINEERING INT'L. Ltd.*
 Santa Fe, New
Mexico USA
 (800) 503.1961 nationwide

 *Licensed Fire Protection
Engineers -  Architects/Inspectors/Fire
 Investigators: AZ  CA  CO  NM   NV 
NY  TX  UT  KS  MD 
MS




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Re: Antifreeze systems

[Forest Wilson]

 It also depends on what edition of NFPA 13 has been adopted by your 
jurisdiction.


 

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-736-0425
forest_wil...@aol.com


 

 

-Original Message-
From: rongreenman . rongreen...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wed, Jun 3, 2015 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: Antifreeze systems


The reason I have no hair is local jurisdictions thinking they have a
better
insight into these problems than the committee because they have a
special
problem. I think they want the attic system because they're
afraid of
firefighters falling through the roof. My solution has always
been, if this is
a concern don't go on the roof. The shoe purpose of a 13R
is to afford
residents more tenable escape time. If everyone is standing on
the sidewalk,
surround and drown. Only my opinion though.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:15 AM,
Parsley Consulting 
parsleyconsult...@cox.net wrote:

 Travis,
 I
believe you have this correct, however, there's also a hook in the
 applicable
sections for 13R systems.
 That link (if you scroll down), shows you the
page, you see the
 revised section 5.4.2 for 13R, and it notes that ares
needing freeze
 protection can use anti-freeze if it is a listed solution per
NFPA 13, and
 the installation of that sort of system is to be per NFPA 13.

Sounds like the AHJ for you Jay is stepping way out on a limb.  I
 don't know
if I'd do this sort of work with this sort of problem hanging
 over the
project, even if I did get the AHJ's instructions in writing with
 their
signature.  For me, one of the early seminars I attended included an
 advisory
that How are you going to defend installing a system with
 anti-freeze when
you know it has this issue?
 Or maybe ask the AHJ if they're going to
defend you in court, and
 definitely get that in writing, since they're asking
you to install
 something outside of the adopted standard.
 *Ken Wagoner,
SET
 *Parsley Consulting***
 *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
 *Escondido,
California 92025
 *Phone 760-745-6181*
 Visit our website
http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/


 ***
 On 06/03/2015 10:52 AM,
Travis Mack, SET wrote:

 Jay:

 The way I read that link is that you
can use AF listed for ESFR systems,
 or you can use premix solutions in
specific areas of a new 13D
 installation.  It doesn't say anywhere that it
is permitted in a 13R or 13
 system based on that link.

 So, if you
are 13R, I don't see how it would comply with the
 requirements.  But, maybe
I am reading something wrong.

 Travis Mack, SET
 MFP Design, LLC

2508 E Lodgepole Drive
 Gilbert, AZ 85298
 480-505-9271
 fax:
866-430-6107
 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

 http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
 Send large files
to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

 On 6/3/2015 10:48 AM,
Jay Stough wrote:

 I have an AHJ that is telling me to install an
antifreeze system in a 13R
 attic.  They have an ordinance requiring attics
to be protected in 13R
 and
 13D systems if deemed appropriate by the
fire marshal.  I was under the
 impression that after September of 2012 you
could not install new
 antifreeze systems without listed solution, which at
the present time is
 not available.  He is telling me that it just has to be
premixed.
When I go to the NFPA website, at


http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/fire-and-safety-equipment/home-fire-sprinklers/current-requirements-for-sprinkler-systems-containing-antifreeze,


it appears that you can use premixed, even at the higher concentrations.
   
Am I reading this correctly?

 *Jay Stough*
 NICET IV LAYOUT

NICET III ITM
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--

Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates
Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA
98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700
(cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC,
WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well
stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer
(1876-1958)
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Re: Owners Certificate

[Forest Wilson]

Just an FYI...when you buy the NFPA forms in electronic format you get all of 
these.
Technically, a lot of these cities post these forms online but sometimes it 
violates copyright laws.
I have the Owners Cert available on Word from NFPA. 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
forest_wil...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Travis Mack, SET tm...@mfpdesign.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Mon, Jun 1, 2015 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Owners Certificate



div id=AOLMsgPart_1_ca8c589d-4cba-4415-a178-b0704cc6a39f style=margin: 
0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;color: 
#000;background-color: #fff;

pre style=font-size: 9pt;ttGoogle is your friend..Here is an example 
I found on-line. Hopefully 
this
will meet your
needs.

a href=http://www.townofbrighton.org/DocumentCenter/View/4091; 
target=_blankhttp://www.townofbrighton.org/DocumentCenter/View/4091/a

Travis Mack,
SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ
85298
480-505-9271
fax:
866-430-6107
email:a href=mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com;tm...@mfpdesign.com/a

a href=http://www.mfpdesign.com; target=_blankhttp://www.mfpdesign.com/a
a href=https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692; 
target=_blankhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692/a
Send
large files to us via: a href=https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign; 
target=_blankhttps://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign/a

On 6/1/2015 8:43
AM, JONATHAN GARCIA wrote:
 Sounds like little league

 -Original
Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
[a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org?;mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org/a]
 On Behalf Of Mike
Hairfield
 Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 9:39 AM
 To:
a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org/a
 Subject: RE: Owners Certificate


oops disregard, responded to the wrong email

 From: a href=mailto:fsl...@msn.com;fsl...@msn.com/a
 To:
a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org/a
 Subject: RE: Owners Certificate

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:37:58 -0400

 The league woul make us send them
back, but I do not think they will changetheir minds because of Stacey.

Mike

 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:27:41 -0400
 Subject: Owners
Certificate
 From: a href=mailto:jaycs7...@gmail.com;jaycs7...@gmail.com/a
 To:
a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org/a

 Does anyone have a nice copy of
owners certificate that is in NFPA
 13.  I was hoping that the AFSA members
area might have had it with
 the other forms, but not yet.

 *Jay
Stough*
 NICET IV LAYOUT
 NICET III ITM

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Antifreeze Question

[Forest Wilson]

 What do you mean 'installed with sections of pipe?'
Expansion tanks or pressure relief valves are required on antifreeze systems.

 

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-736-0425
forest_wil...@aol.com

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Re: help

[Forest Wilson]

 Most Fire Codes allow the Chief to determine the location and criteria of the 
FDC.

 

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor

forest_wil...@aol.com


 

 

-Original Message-
From: Fairchild, Jack jfairch...@ballinger-ae.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 30, 2015 11:52 am
Subject: RE: help


Unlike NFPA 13, NFPA 14 has the height requirement in the body and not the
appendix.  From NFPA 14, 2007 edition:

6.4.6 Fire department connections
shall be located not less than 18 in. (457 mm) nor more than 48 in. (1219 mm)
above the level of the adjoining ground, sidewalk, or grade surface.

Jack
Fairchild

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of JONATHAN
GARCIA
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 11:07 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: help

Thank you very
much

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jack
Carlson
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 8:51 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: help

NFPA 13 (2010 and
2013 Edition)

A.8.17.2 The fire department connection should be located not
less than 18 in. (457 mm) and not more than 4 ft (1.2 m) above the level of the
adjacent grade or access level.


Jack W. Carlson, SET
Triple A Fire
Protection
Office - 251.649.2034
Fax - 251.649.2037
Cell -
706.247.5050

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of JONATHAN
GARCIA
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 10:43 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: help

To whom it may
concern

I am asking for the location in the code book NFPA or if it is in the
IFC that indicates the height minimum and maximum for a FDC.

Thank you in
advance

Jonathan Garcia
Fire Marshal/Investigator
1526 Stephanie Rd
Rio
Rancho, NM 87124
Cell  (505) 238-7097
Office  (505) 891-5871
Fax  (505)
892-3178

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Re: Testing Questions

[Forest Wilson]

 Tom,
You have been on here for years.
What's up?

 

Forest WilsonFire Sprinkler Contractor
forest_wil...@aol.com




-Original Message-
From: Douglas Hicks lt;fire...@eoni.comgt;
To: sprinklerforum lt;sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.orggt;
Sent: Mon, Apr 27, 2015 11:25 pm
Subject: Re: Testing Questions

 
 
 
Clarifications please Tom.  Testing as in Inspection, Testing and  
Maintenance or testing as in those who test the sprinkler heads, valves,  
pipe fittings and such.   If the former, I am guilty, as that is what we do. 
 
-Original Message-  
From: Tom Duross 
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 4:35 PM 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Testing Questions 
 
 
 
Are there many testing companies belonging to this forum? 
I took a brief hiatus so I'm not so sure currently. 
I have some questions for the masses, some #14, #13 but mostly #25. 
I don't want to waste the forum's time if this is really off-topic. 
 
LGRS 
Tom Duross 
 
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Re: Health club on top of parking structure

[Forest Wilson]

Joe,

The point all the posters are trying to get across is that this Forum discusses 
HOW to install fire sprinkler systems. 
The Building Code dictates WHEN and IF to install fire sprinkler systems. NFPA 
standardsare used to determine HOW to Install the sprinklers.

Your insurance company should be able to provide you guidance on this matter. 




Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-736-0425
forest_wil...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tue, Apr 14, 2015 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Health club on top of parking structure



div id=AOLMsgPart_1_898e82e8-35ad-4b9b-9e52-45f393018935 style=margin: 
0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;color: 
#000;background-color: #fff;

pre style=font-size: 9pt;ttWhich begs the question, how/why did the BO 
allow a B-occupancy 80' in the air
without sprinklers throughout?Do you have original plans with code analysis
from the AOR?If not, I would step back from the computer, leave this forum
for a short while, and go about finding a copy of the permit plans and the
permit documents from the building department that issued them.   


SL





-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org?;mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org/a]
 On Behalf Of Joe
Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:17 AM
To:
a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org/a
Subject: Re: Healthclub on top of
parking structure

I am working to keep some confidentiality on the building
itself. It is actually 10.5 stories. I thought the actual stories to be
insignificant, but it appears that you guys are too sharp for that!


ᐧ

On
Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:13 PM, Steve Leyton
a href=mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com;st...@protectiondesign.com/a
wrote:

 And that is because
...?





 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:
 a 
 href=mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org;sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org/a]
  On Behalf Of Joe

Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:11 AM
 To:
a 
href=mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org/a
 Subject: Re: Healthclub on top of
parking structure

 To be clear - this is high-rise by IFC standards.

ᐧ
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Re: for the avid history buff

[Forest Wilson]

 It's interesting. But How is he copyrighting old NFPA literature in his name?

 

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
forest_wil...@aol.com

 

 

-Original Message-
From: David Autry da...@mfp-inc.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wed, Mar 11, 2015 10:34 am
Subject: RE: for the avid history buff


Reads like science fiction.

David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection
2521
West L Street, Suite 5
Lincoln, NE 68522
402.466.2616
402.466.2617
fax
da...@mfp-inc.com

-Original Message-
From:
Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On
Behalf Of Brad
Casterline
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:27 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: for the avid history buff

I
stumbled upon some buried treasure in my own backyard
yesterday:



http://buildingcoderesourcelibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Fire-Pro
te
ction-History-Part-211.00.pdf



Brad
Casterline, NICET IV

Fire Protection Division



FSC, Inc.

P:
913-722-3473

bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com

www.fsc-inc.com



Engineering
Solutions for the Built
Environment



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Re: exterior cooler/freezer

[Forest Wilson]

 If the Project Engineer says they aren't needed then don't install them.
NFPA 13 would require it; However, you can submit a change order down the road 
and add them later if the AHJ requires it.


 

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-736-0425
forest_wil...@aol.com


 

 

-Original Message-
From: Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Mon, Mar 9, 2015 11:25 am
Subject: RE: exterior cooler/freezer


True, but that's about separate risers/systems not whether the building gets
sprinklered.  If there is a fire wall the 'engineer' is right the coolers don't
need sprinklers. If they were sprinklered though they need a separate riser
except if AHJ says its OK for one (8.2.5.2) or they are attached (8.2.4) which
they are so one riser would suffice.  

Chris Cahill, PE*
Associate Fire
Protection Engineer 
Burns  McDonnell
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax: 
952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in:
MN


Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work
For


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J
Willis
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:18 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: exterior
cooler/freezer

In that case, see 8.2.5 of NFPA #13

R/
Matt

Matthew J.
Willis
Project Manager
Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
1805 Samco Road
Rapid
City, SD
57702
Office-605.348.2342
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108



-Original
Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cahill,
Christopher
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 9:17 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: exterior
cooler/freezer

Hold on a second, there could be a fire wall between the two
creating separate buildings, lol. 

Chris Cahill, PE*
Associate Fire
Protection Engineer 
Burns  McDonnell
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax: 
952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in:
MN


Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work
For


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:07 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: exterior
cooler/freezer

I concur with if there's a door from the freezer into the
building then sprinkler. 

It's no different than if they added a room to the
building.  Some think because it's a freezer there's no fire hazard hence their
rationale for thinking no sprinklers required.

Craig L. Prahl 
Fire
Protection Group Lead
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International
Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax -
864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


-Original
Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 11:02 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: exterior
cooler/freezer

It is attached - per IBC definition therefore sprinkler are
required...that is my understanding and what has been enforced locally for
years.



Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL
32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Steve
Sorrell ssorr...@performancefire.com
wrote:

 Based on my actual
experience,
 If no access from the building, does not need to be sprinkled.

If access from inside the building, has to be sprinkled.
 This is based on the
A.H.J.'s


 Stephen J. Sorrell, CET
 NICET# 77901 Level III
 E mail:
ssorr...@performancefire.com

 Performance Fire Protection, LLC
 Corporate
Office
 179 Gasoline Alley -  PO Box 4510
 Mooresville, NC 28117
 Phone:
704-663-1664  Fax: 704-663-1652 Cell : 704-309-1242

 Web:
www.performancefire.com
 Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL

 Performance
on Every Level.

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd -

 Work
 Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:48 AM
 To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: exterior cooler/freezer


I am working on a project where they are installing 2 exterior 

coolers/freezers. The coolers abut the building and there is a doorway 
 cut
in the wall to access them. The engineer says they do not need to 
 be
sprinklers because they are outside and not part of the building. 
 My claim
is that they need to be sprinklers because there is direct 
 access makes them
part of the building and they present an exposure. I 
 could not find an NFPA
13 reference to support my claim. Any thoughts? 
 (FWIW, there will be a
sprinkler inside the building near the doors to 
 the coolers)





Sent from my iPad
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Re: Mech Tee Installation

[Forest Wilson]

 if they are in compliance.
Do you hang the ball peen hammer next to the 'fixed' dripping welds
that occasionally occur?

Every seen the weld scraping from the factory produced pipe get
dropped and adhered to the inside of the next pipe in the formation
line?  Now if I knock them loose I can show they were removed by
attaching. Wonder how you show compliance if they didn't occur in the
first place?

My real point in my ramblings is there comes a place where we have to
trust all involved did their job right.  Do things get left in the
pipe occasionally?  Sure do, but we need to tackle keeping the valve
open before we get into the minutia of the other possible failures
which all together don't add up to a lot of failures.

Chris Cahill, PE*
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
Burns  McDonnell
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in: MN


Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work
For


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth
Berman
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 6:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Mech Tee Installation

attaching the coupon shows compliance with retrieval requirement.
2007
13-
6.5.5.2(2) Might as well hang it there, it's just trash.

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:26 PM, John Denhardt 
jdenha...@stricklandfire.com

wrote:
No reference in NFPA 13 that I'm aware.  Usually see the
requirement in a specification.  You might want to look at a
manufacturer's installation instruction sheet that is part of the
listing for the

device.

John

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of JD
Gamble
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 6:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Mech Tee Installation

Does anyone know the actual Code for requiring the attachment of a
drill out to a Mech Tee?



I know its good practice, but does anyone know the actual code, or
is there one?







Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan

JD Gamble

jgam...@lssofsheridan.com mailto:jgam...@lssofsheridan.com

(307) 763-3361





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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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--
Forest Wilson
Project Manager
193 California St
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

[Forest Wilson]

I agree with all of the other endorsements.
How much does one potential leak cost?
With these there are little room for field error


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-516-8248
forest_wil...@aol.com




-Original Message-
From: Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wed, Feb 4, 2015 8:58 pm
Subject: Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up


Hello Todd,

rodding is not required, Nothing to rod to at the bend on it. Need to send the 
engineer the cut sheet showing that. I have had to before.

Wednesday, February 4, 2015, 7:37:16 PM, you wrote:

 Interesting that I had a client call about this right before this
 thread started. They installed a 6 unit with the grooved outlet.
 Now the Engineer on the job is requiring the stub above the floor to
 be rodded and a dielectric union to be installed. 

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com wrote:

 Hello ,

   I use em all the time. GREAT as you can drop it in the ground or give it 
 to the site contractor. NO need to hydrotest before they pour the slab.

 Wednesday, February 4, 2015, 11:08:19 AM, you wrote:

 It’s a great way to circumvent the need for pit at the lead-in when
 the owner is trying to avoid joints below the slab. This can take
 that joint outside the footprint of the building.

 Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire
 Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile:
 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:22 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

 Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

 Craig L. Prahl
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis 
 Mack
 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 10:20 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

 Are you talking about an Ames In-Building Riser?
 http://www.amesfirewater.com/Products/In_Building_Risers

 Travis Mack, SET
 MFP Design, LLC
 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
 Gilbert, AZ 85298
 480-505-9271
 fax: 866-430-6107
 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

 http://www.mfpdesign.com
 https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

 On 2/4/2015 8:18 AM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
 I've got someone asking about a prefabricated, welded stub-up.  Basically 
 connects to the UG and is one piece up to the connection just above the 
 slab.

 I've been hunting but just can't find who makes or represents these.

 Anyone use these or have a website of manufacturer?

 Craig L. Prahl
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC 29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension 74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com

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 -- 
 Best regards,
 Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com

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Re: Antifreeze, not enough

[Forest Wilson]

Doug,

You should only use factory pre mixed solutions.
It has been this way for years.

Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
PH: 937-516-8248
forest_wil...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Douglas Hicks fire...@eoni.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Fri, Jan 16, 2015 07:28 PM
Subject: Antifreeze, not enough



div id=AOLMsgPart_1_e341065c-cf67-4969-8aa8-79f27d2e77d3 style=margin: 
0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;color: 
#000;background-color: #fff;

pre style=font-size: 9pt;ttWe was called to install an isolation valve in 
a wet system, and replace the antifreeze. Another company made the wet system 
into an antifreeze system.  No signage, indicating the system was not a wet 
system but was an antifreeze system.   I was told the system held about 50 to 
55 gallons of glycol.  I ordered 12 of the 38% 5 gallon pre-mixed buckets, 60 
gallons.  I also had some straight glycol, that we mixed, for a total of 80 
gallons .We got to the job site and drained the system, getting about 75 
gallons of fluid. The old antifreeze was dirty, but no lumps, no scale.   After 
installing the isolation valve, and test ports at each end of the system, we 
flushed and drained the system. We filled the system with fresh water and held 
the pressure for 10 minutes and had no visible leaks. Again we drained the 
system, using the vacuum to make sure we got all the old fluid out. We put in 
80 gallons, of pre-mix.  Our pressure reading was about 5 
 PSI.  I went into the highest att
 ic, loosened 2 heads and we had antifreeze leaking out.  At least it tasted 
like antifreeze, nasty tasting stuff. I tightened the heads and we went to the 
sprinkler room.  We added 12 gallons of straight water.  Still not enough 
pressure, so we opened the main control valve.  That is when I found out the 
50-60 gallon estimate came from the alarm guy, when he flowed water for his 
annual test.  So the maintenance guy  I went to his office and finally found 
some information that noted there was 110 gallons of water in the system.   So 
now I have a mix of antifreeze and straight water.   My thought is to drain 
15/20 gallons, then test the solution, and keep draining and testing until I 
get to 38% glycol.  Then we will add 38% until the system is full.  Or do we 
need to dump all the antifreeze and start over?  

We did have a problem filling the system with the pump.  Should we go to the 
highest accessible head and remove it, replacing it with a ball valve that we 
can open  and relieve the pressure?  Our pump has filled other systems without 
any problems.  

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

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Re: Antifreeze in systems

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Jody,

For purposes of evaluating existing buildings and their sprinkler systems for 
prospective buyers, NFPA 25 will not help you.



Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

Notice:
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected 
by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by 
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may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by 
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guaranteed on the Internet.

div Original message /divdivFrom: Jody Massey 
engineeringdesig...@gmail.com /divdivDate:01/10/2015  10:31 AM  
(GMT-05:00) /divdivTo: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
/divdivSubject: Re: Antifreeze in systems /divdiv
/divThank you.
I had ordered
Fire Code Essentials, 2015 edition®
back before Christmas and it has not shipped yet.

In my job, I complete MEP, Fire, and Life Safety assessments for buyers of
existing buildings. I know fire alarm systems very well, but I am now
focusing on the items in the fire code which are holes in my knowledge base
- the details of Fire Sprinkler system inspection.

I have found an ICC (International Code Council) Fire Inspector Cert,
NICET (these are the PE people) Fire Inspector Cert,
and of course, the NFPA Fire Inspector Cert.

Do any of you have any experience with any of these?

Ok. - HELP. I have now just stumbled upon NFPA 1031. Am I correct in saying
that any course on NFPA 1031 would include a full review of NFPA 25?

I just do not want to waste time on material that is not pertinent to my
situation.

Thank you for your insight.
ᐧ


*Jody Massey *

On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Douglas Hicks fire...@eoni.com wrote:

 25-2014 edition 5.3.4 If you do not have a copy, go to
 http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages.  You
 can look at the codes as  read only.  But you really need to get the
 book.  Or better, get 13 and 25 with the commentary.



 -Original Message- From: rongreenman .
 Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 5:28 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Antifreeze in systems


 Try reading NFPA 25.

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Jody Massey engineeringdesig...@gmail.com
 
 wrote:

  Gentlemen,
 Concerning existing systems (in general):

- Are these required to be inspected? If so, where is it noted?
- When are antifreeze systems used and can you look at the system and
see when/if the antifreeze was put in?
- How often, if ever, does the antifreeze need to be replaced/tested?

 Thank you and happy 2015,

 *Jody*
 ᐧ
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 --
 Ron Greenman
 Instructor
 Fire Protection Engineering Technology
 Bates Technical College
 1101 So. Yakima Ave.
 Tacoma, WA 98405

 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

 http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

 253.680.7346
 253.576.9700 (cell)

 Member:
 ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

 They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
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Re: expansion tanks

[Forest Wilson]

The tank should be listed. It sounds like they used a cheap water heater 
expansion tank.
I can make this very easy for you. Since there are only 2 companies I am 
aware of with listed tanks, take a picture and send it to the companies. 
Ask if it is theirs. Share their response with your customer. Let them 
know that the rubber in their cheap tank will degrade and become worthless.
The manufacturers of the listed tanks should be able to furnish you with 
literature to share with them.

Also, regarding the conversion to anti-freeze:
Were hydraulic calculations performed?
Changes in Backflow protection?





On 11/29/2014 5:13 PM, Douglas Hicks wrote:

An account has had the wet sprinkler system changed to antifreeze. Too bad the 
alarm guy did not know about the antifreeze.  Maybe there is a reason for 
signs.  When I checked the antifreeze solution at the far end, it was at 10°F. 
We will install an isolation valve so the system can be flow tested w/o loosing 
the antifreeze solution, and install a test port at the far end.  The system is 
about 50 gallons, so we do not need to test the antifreeze except at both ends.

And isn’t the expansion tank  supposed to be listed?  The tank does not have 
any ID as to manufacturer or listing or capacity.  Other tanks I have seen were 
mounted vertically, this one is horizontal.

There are at least 2 places where the wet sprinkler piping goes vertically 
about 15 feet.  Do we need to loosen the sprinkler heads to allow air to escape?

We now get our antifreeze pre-mixed in 5 gallon buckets.  Any leftover 
antifreeze will be left on site. And signs will be installed.  One sign we make 
by cutting an empty bucket so the label becomes the sign.

What did I miss?
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///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

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Re: Separation of systems with plate steel

[Forest Wilson]

Jamie,

I don't understand your question.
Will the frying pans be left in the system or is this temporary when the 
system is being worked on?



On 11/10/2014 12:21 PM, Jamie Seidl wrote:

I have a ongoing project where we are separating by floor, an old bird cage
system from 1901.  There are flanges on the top and bottom of each vertical
feed, unfortunately, each of these flanges is an older bolt pattern, (6
bolt instead of 8 bolt for 6 pipe), so cutting it out and installing a
blind flange is a no go.  Years ago when working on these types of systems,
we used to use a Frying Pan or piece of plate steel with a handle slid
between the flange with a new gasket to separate the floors.  Before having
some fabricated, I wanted to check a see if this is still an acceptable
method for system subdivision.  I don't see anything prohibiting this in
NFPA 13, but wondered if I have missed it.
Thanks,
Jamie Seidl
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Re: NFPA 13

[Forest Wilson]

Maybe it's like ordering checks...you never start with number one, usually
a higher number.

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 12:16 PM, David Blackwell david.blackw...@llr.sc.gov
 wrote:

 While it doesn't address the NFPA numbering issue [1 vs. lucky 13...]
 the following article entitled History Of The NFPA Codes and
 Standards-Making System is on NFPA website and worth a read if you are
 into studying the history...


 http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/Files/Codes%20and%20standards/Standards%20development%20process/HistoryNFPACodesStandards.pdf


 Respectfully,


 David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE, CFI I
 Chief Engineer
 Office of State Fire Marshal
 SC Department of Labor, Licensing,  Regulation, 141 Monticello Trail,
 Columbia, SC 29203
 Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct]
 Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office]
 Email:   david.blackw...@llr.sc.gov
 Website:  http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/


 Please note that you can sign up to receive automatic information on SC
 Division of Fire and Life Safety current events, policies, laws and
 procedures by visiting our Web site at:
 http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David Autry
 Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 12:08 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: NFPA 13

 My 1961 version is NBFU No. 13.
 Standard of the National Board of Fire Underwriters for the Installation
 of Sprinkler Systems as recommended by the National Fire Protection
 Association

 David Autry

 Meininger Fire Protection
 2521 West L Street, Suite 5
 Lincoln, NE 68522
 402.466.2616
 402.466.2617 fax
 da...@mfp-inc.com

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 rongreenman .
 Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 10:38 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: NFPA 13

 It was but before NFPA was NFPA. Cecil has this down. Ask him.

 On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Todd - Work t...@fpdc.com wrote:

  That sounds like something I would ask. Triskaidekaphobia was
  obviously not a concern.
 
  Todd G Williams, PE
  Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  Stonington, CT
  www.fpdc.com
  860-535-2080 (ofc)
 
   On Nov 6, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Smith, Steven D. (CSFD) 
  sdsm...@springsgov.com wrote:
  
   Had a question posed to me that I couldn't answer completely.
  
   If NFPA 13 was the first document from NFPA why isn't it NFPA 1?
  
   Steve
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 Ron Greenman
 Instructor
 Fire Protection Engineering Technology
 Bates Technical College
 1101 So. Yakima Ave.
 Tacoma, WA 98405

 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

 http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

 253.680.7346
 253.576.9700 (cell)

 Member:
 ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

 They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
 Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

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 inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: Outdoor Dining

[Forest Wilson]

You can always send an RFI to the Project EOR.

On 10/28/2014 2:19 PM, Jeff Bridges wrote:

Fully sprinklered Restaurant with outdoor dining-

Restaurant has an outdoor dining area with steel frame over the top and a
pullback fabric canopy.

If sprinkler protection is provided (and is it even required) is the fabric
sufficient to catch heat for sprinkler activation?

  

  

  


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Project Manager
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Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

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Re: Expansion Joint vs. Seismic Expansion Joint

[Forest Wilson]

If in any doubt, I always send an RFI.
You have nothing to lose by asking for formal information/ instruction.


On 10/22/2014 1:24 AM, Aaron Peck wrote:

I seem to remember there's no difference. Except on this project I have an 
irregular expansion line and the USACoE plans only indicate expansion joints on 
the mains, allowing branch lines to cross it without a problem.

This project doesn't require seismic bracing. So any thoughts if I should bring it up 
about the branch lines crossing it? They are 2 in size to 1.

Sent from my iPhone
Aaron M. Peck, SET Fire Protection
Skype +1(202)407-9079
Cambodia +855(0)78700407


On Oct 18, 2014, at 8:56 PM, Bob b...@firebyknight.com wrote:

Jerry,
Looking at the 2010 ed. 6.6.6 (yikes), crawl spaces are specifically omitted
from requiring sprinklers.  Also, a test is provided to determine if
sprinklers are required or not, other concealed spaces that are not used or
intended for living purposes or storage and do not contain fuel-fired
equipment.
Your situation meets the crawl space omission so there should be no reason
to sprinkle it.  I'm working instead of hunting, my weekend is shot!  Hope
you have a good weekend.

Thank You,

Bob Knight, CET III
208-318-3057
www.Firebyknight.com


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of MFPC
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 7:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Sprinklers underneath a struture

I'm working on a 13r bungalow type building that is built on a hillside.
Would the exposed crawlspace under the build need to be sprinklered. Or
could that be considered balcony type situation?

Jerry Van Kolken
MFPC (760) 722-2722
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Project Manager
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Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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Re: Existing swing check valve replacement

[Forest Wilson]

This is at the discretion of the water purveyor.
In most states, the EPA has jurisdiction over the water supply and
containment backflow devices fall under the water purveyor's jurisdiction,
not the building departments (or building code).

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:44 PM, Dewayne Martinez 
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com wrote:

 Is there anywhere in the IBC or EIBC or NFPA that allows a existing swing
 check to remain and not to be replaced by a new double check backflow
 device in the system riser if it is not disturbed.  Thanks
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9/11 Stair Climbs

[Forest Wilson]

Last weekend, I participated in a local 9/11 Stair Climb in Yellow 
Springs, OH.
I highly encourage anyone able and willing to participate in these 
events across the country.
The funds raised in these events are used to aid families of disabled 
and killed firefighters.

You can find events in your areas at www.firehero.org
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Insurance Companies

[Forest Wilson]

This is really a topic for SprinklerChat but it's gone now so I'm posting
it here.I need names of insurance companies for fire sprinkler contractors.
Please send me the name of your insurer, it is much needed and appreciated.
My current renewal fell through and I'm in a little bind.
Thank you.
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Re: Another anti-freeze question or teo

[Forest Wilson]

I think that UL would be the listing lab.

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Todd - Work t...@fpdc.com wrote:

 Is there any progress on developing a listed anti-freeze solution? Who
 would be the listing agency?

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
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Re: Seismic bracing

[Forest Wilson]

Does the building code require it?
The building code dictates if you are in a seismic zone and NFPA 13 
tells you how to do it.




On 9/5/2014 8:13 AM, Steve Sorrell wrote:

I need some help with a seismic problem.
I am making modifications to a 1970's sprinkler system in NC, we are using the 
2000 ed of NFPA  13.
There is no seismic bracing on this system.
I have had to add some new main in various areas.
The local AHJ is requiring that only the new sprinkler main will need to be 
braced.
Does anyone know if this is an actual standards requirement or just a 
preference of the local AHJ ?
Obviously I am trying to avoid installing the seismic bracing on this project.


Stephen J. Sorrell, CET
NICET# 77901 Level III
E mail: ssorr...@performancefire.commailto:ssorr...@performancefire.com

Performance Fire Protection, LLC
Corporate Office
179 Gasoline Alley -  PO Box 4510
Mooresville, NC 28117
Phone: 704-663-1664  Fax: 704-663-1652
Cell : 704-309-1242

Web: www.performancefire.comhttp://www.performancefire.com
Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL

Performance on Every Level.

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Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender 
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Re: NFPA 25 2011 System Size

[Forest Wilson]

I think the original question was if a system with fewer than 20 heads 
was regulated by NFPA 25 in his state.
For example, does the car wash with 2 sprinklers in the chemical room 
require testing and maintenance under his state codes?
In Ohio, many local AHJs do not require systems with less than 20 heads 
to be inspected or maintained under NFPA 25.




On 8/21/2014 8:11 AM, Greg McGahan wrote:

* NFPA #25.2.1.4* says that modifications affecting less than 20 sprinklers
does not require hydrostatic testing...we regularly have inspections for 1
and 2 head mods...


Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852


On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com
wrote:


Hello Sprinklerforum,

   I have been told verbally by an AHJ in the area that systems under 20
heads do not have to be inspected. He said it was in the code, But has not
been able to pinpoint where.  I am unable to find that code reference,
Anybody know where it would be?

--
Best regards,
  Charles  mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com

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Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system 
manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only 
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disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender 
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Re: NFPA 25 2011 System Size REPLY

[Forest Wilson]

I think the original poster was asking about limited area systems of 20 or
fewer heads.
IN OHio, most jurisdictions do not require annual testing of these systems.
This is from the city of Philadelphia website; they also do not require
annual testing:

ISSUE:
Section F-901.6 of the Philadelphia Fire Prevention Code requires all fire
protection systems be tested in
accordance with section F-915.
The question has been raised as to the need for certification of limited
area sprinkler systems which have been
installed in accordance with the building code provisions for such systems.
The building code provides for limited area systems to protect small areas
that require fire suppression in a
building that is not protected throughout with a sprinkler system. The
limited area systems are
regulated under a separate section of the building code and are relieved
from many of the requirements that
are applicable to sprinkler systems in general, e.g. fire department
connections; separate fire water service
from the city main; alarm and alarm attachments; flushing, main drain and
flow tests.
The certification of automatic sprinkler systems is contingent on NFPA
standards and requires testing of
components that do not exist in limited area sprinkler systems, and at
pressures that exceed the
installation requirements of limited area sprinkler systems.
DIRECTION:
The department will not require annual certification of limited area
sprinkler systems based on the
characteristics of such systems described above.


On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:49 AM, JD Gamble jgam...@lssofsheridan.com
wrote:

 It would seem that the AHJ has become confused by the verbiage of NFPA 13,
 24.1.2.3 (2010 ED) not requiring Hydrostatic testing for modifications to
 fewer than 20 sprinklers.  Call me simple, but the scope of NFPA 25 as
 outlined in 1.1 (2008 ED) seems pretty transparent as to WHAT must be
 inspected.



 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
 On Behalf Of accentf...@aol.com
 Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 9:43 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: NFPA 25 2011 System Size REPLY

 Good morning Ladies/Gentlemen:

 I do not know where  20 sprinklers might be found in 25  (or any other
 standard) and/or why there would be such a stipulation in the  first
 place...That said: IF an overwhelming number of  failures attributed to
 sprinkler systems (all sizes) are due  to closed valves and/or inadequate
 water supplies, it seems 'logical' that, if a  sprinkler system has a water
 supply and/or control valve, those devices would  need to be
 check/tested/inspected, regardless of the number of sprinklers in the
 system?? The number '20' has been bandied around for years as to adding
 that
 number of heads to an existing system, plans submittals, whether a hydro
 was
 required, FDC requirement, etc.

 In my professional (albeit humble) opinion, ALL fire sprinkler  systems
 need
 to be inspected/tested per NFPA-25 guidelines. I rather suspect our friends
 in the insurance industry would concur. In New Mexico, it is quarterly - it
 is statewide (commercial systems).

 Best to All-

 Jerry
 _accentfire@aol.com_ (mailto:accentf...@aol.com)

 Jerry D. Watts, SFPE
 President  Co-Founder
 ACCENT FIRE ENGINEERING INT'L. Ltd.*
 Santa Fe, New Mexico (a U.S. State)
 (800) 503.1961 nationwide

 *Founded 1991



 In a message dated 8/21/2014 9:29:26 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
 rongreen...@gmail.com writes:

 In  Seattle the rule was, and may still be but I haven't worked in industry
 for  some time, that a six head or less T.I. didn't require an inspection,
 but  that was local to Seattle.


 On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:11 AM, Greg  McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
 wrote:

  * NFPA #25.2.1.4*  says that modifications affecting less than 20
 sprinklers
  does not  require hydrostatic testing...we regularly have inspections
  for
 1
  and  2 head mods...
 
 
  Greg McGahan
  Living Water Fire  Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
  1160 McKenzie  Road
  Cantonment, FL 32533
  850-937-1850
  fax  850-937-1852
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Charles  Thurston
  charl...@mbfsg.com
  wrote:
 
   Hello  Sprinklerforum,
  
 I have been told  verbally by an AHJ in the area that systems
   under 20 heads do not  have to be inspected. He said it was in the
   code, But has
  not
been able to pinpoint where.  I am unable to find that code
  reference,
   Anybody know where it would be?
  
--
   Best regards,
Charles  mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
  
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Re: copper pipe vs CPVC

[Forest Wilson]

I would at a minimum speak with the local AHJ, as they may require a permit.
If you intend to replace all of the piping with plastic, the AHJ may not 
permit the use of antifreeze in this new system.

Is this a residential system?


On 8/8/2014 4:40 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:

It just occurred to me though Douglas (on a smoke break as usual) I would be
worried that the existing pipe size is per code, so I would calc it anyway.

-Original Message-
From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 3:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: copper pipe vs CPVC

Both C=150 and the best part is it looks like the I.D of CPVC is bigger than
type K,L, and M copper.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: Douglas Hicks [mailto:fire...@eoni.com]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 1:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: copper pipe vs CPVC

One of our group homes has leaking copper pipe.  The owner told me their
experience is to replace the copper with CPVC.  I like that, faster and
easier for us.  But, do I need to get the system re-engineered when changing
to CPVC?  Can I just replace size for like size?

The system is 20+ years old so I am going to propose new sprinklers.
Besides, some of the heads are corroded and some have paint on them.
We will also provide a means to test the antifreeze, at present there is no
way to test the solution.

I  am going to exclude sheet rock and painting from the job.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
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--
Forest Wilson
Project Manager
193 California St
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender 
immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete 
this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are 
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Re: Excessive system pressure and opening of sprinklers

[Forest Wilson]

I know the heads are all tested by the mfr; HOWEVER, I have personally 
experienced heads leaking from the seats immediately after installation 
(using correct installation practices).
In one box of 100, we had 3 leaking heads! (this was about 10 years ago, 
I havent had any recent problems)




On 8/6/2014 4:26 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

If it were due to a pressure spike than only one head opening might not be
unusual as the over pressure would be immediately relieved, but an unlikely
event nevertheless. Particularly multiple times unless a batch of bad
sprinklers. Think of pieces of pipe cut from a single pipe with a bad seam.
Then again when the forklift guy hits the sprinkler it usually is an
accident.


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
wrote:


Actually sprinklers (and most UL-listed equipment) are required to be
pressure tested at 4x rated, so that would be 700 PSI for conventional
sprinklers and 1000 PSI for HP.

SL






-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
mphe...@aerofire.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 9:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Excessive system pressure and opening of sprinklers

Check the UL listing requirements, I believe the sprinkler heads are
pressure tested at 500 PSI.
Mark at Aero

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 9:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Excessive system pressure and opening of sprinklers

Got a client that has had more than one incident of accidental sprinkler
discharge they claim is due to municipal pressure surges.   Static pressure
on this industrial system is 150 psi, and a surge tank was installed a
couple of years back to mitigate alleged pressure spikes.

Anyone heard of sprinklers opening due to a pressure spike?

It was only one head out of multiple hundreds in the building.

Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com

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--
Forest Wilson
Project Manager
193 California St
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not 
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender 
immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete 
this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are 
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Re: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground

[Forest Wilson]

 for informational purposes only. This annex contains
explanatory material, numbered to correspond with the applicable text

paragraphs

Yet when brought to NFPA's attention the answer from the NFPA
representative was interpreted from the Annex material.  This is
clearly incorrect, the annex and the illustration are not part of the

code.  In either case fix the

code language or the annex.   The same happens in I Code Commentaries and
various subject matter books that often interpret, amend or supplement
the actual code language.  In a nutshell our codes and standards have
become a maze of requirements, exceptions and interpretations.  This
should be a warning flag to the code community.  Perhaps the code
official has just reached his limit and is instead relying on
empirical experience in the face of confusion.

I have situation at this very moment on two different projects that
impose an operational issue for the fire department, one that the code
is not considering.  However my approach is to get everyone around the
table do some brainstorming and come up with an equitable technical

solution.

Perhaps by finding the root cause of your situation the stakeholders will
put down their swords and solve the problem.   Food for thought.

Best wishes, always available should the need arise.

Sincerely,

John

John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Email: jdruc...@redbanknj.orgmailto:jdruc...@redbanknj.org
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823

Safe Buildings Save Lives !












-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of rfletc...@aerofire.commailto:rfletc...@aerofire.com
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 1:04 PM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.orgmailto:sprinklerfo...@lists.fir
esprinkler.org
Subject: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground

It's Friday so I figured I'd whine on the forum.  To set the stage,
prior to the letter I am referring to we had approved permitted
drawings from the AHJ. The following is a quote from a letter we
received

from that same AHJ.

At this time , Blah Blah Blah Fire Protection District is denying
said plans and is requesting a re-submittal of new plans that exceed
IFC, UFC, and NFPA standards. Nowhere in the body of the letter does
he say exactly how we are to EXCEED IFC, UFC and NFPA. In the letter
they basically outline that what was submitted meets the all of the
codes. I was told by the author of the letter at a meeting the day
before that he didn't care what the code said because he is the AHJ
and per Section 104 of the IFC he can make us do whatever he wants.
Then he said do it my way or there will be no Certificate of
Occupancy.  We are 4-5 weeks away from a CofO and the change involves
increasing the size of two new diesel pumps that are being installed.
The fire chief told us to go to the State Fire Marshal if we wanted to

appeal. I'm a bit frustrated with AHJ's right now.

Ron F
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Forest Wilson

Re: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground

[Forest Wilson]

 and regulations shall be in 
compliance with the intent and purpose of this code and shall not have the effect of 
waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.

Enforce THIS code... shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of THIS 
code.  I don't see where he gets HIS code in place of THIS code. And 
interpretation are only allowed to CLARIFY.  What's not clear is the issue.

Private contractor AHJ or gov't employed AHJ?  Reason being is the contract 
doesn't have the same liability protections usually.  IOW you can sue a contact 
AHJ easier than the gov't.  I'd suggest you have your attorney reply.

Hope you have an owner willing to tell them they are moving in without CofO.
'Cuz that's the way it really gets in front of a judge.  He's right in that he 
can hold the CofO.  That's a powerful tool.  Only the owner can push this and 
move in.  Then the AHJ writes a ticket and you get to go to the judge (assuming 
the City attorney doesn't squash it) to explain how the gov't is wrong on the 
basis of denying the CofO.  I've had a few AHJ's cave when an owner tells them 
we'll see you in court.  But sadly most owners cave and write a check for the 
unlawful requirement.

And consider this, the local sprink chapter in MN hired a lawyer a few years 
ago to write a white paper about the law and legal limits of what AHJ's can 
actually do.  It was mailed to every AHJ in the State. I'm out of contracting 
now so I don't know how effective it was but at least it made them aware we 
weren't a bunch of dumb contractors that will fall for their
every whim.

Chris Cahill, PE*
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
Burns  McDonnell
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in: MN


Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For





-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of rfletc...@aerofire.com
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 12:04 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground

It's Friday so I figured I'd whine on the forum.  To set the stage, prior to
the letter I am referring to we had approved permitted drawings from the
AHJ. The following is a quote from a letter we received from that same AHJ.

At this time , Blah Blah Blah Fire Protection District is denying said
plans and is requesting a re-submittal of new plans that exceed IFC, UFC,
and NFPA standards. Nowhere in the body of the letter does he say exactly
how we are to EXCEED IFC, UFC and NFPA. In the letter they basically
outline that what was submitted meets the all of the codes. I was told by
the author of the letter at a meeting the day before that he didn't care
what the code said because he is the AHJ and per Section 104 of the IFC he
can make us do whatever he wants. Then he said do it my way or there will
be no Certificate of Occupancy.  We are 4-5 weeks away from a CofO and the
change involves increasing the size of two new diesel pumps that are being
installed. The fire chief told us to go to the State Fire Marshal if we
wanted to appeal. I'm a bit frustrated with AHJ's right now.

Ron F
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--
Forest Wilson
Project Manager
193 California St
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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Re: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground

[Forest Wilson]

 Protection District is denying said
plans and is requesting a re-submittal of new plans that exceed IFC, UFC,
and NFPA standards. Nowhere in the body of the letter does he say exactly
how we are to EXCEED IFC, UFC and NFPA. In the letter they basically
outline that what was submitted meets the all of the codes. I was told by
the author of the letter at a meeting the day before that he didn't care
what the code said because he is the AHJ and per Section 104 of the IFC he
can make us do whatever he wants. Then he said do it my way or there will
be no Certificate of Occupancy.  We are 4-5 weeks away from a CofO and the
change involves increasing the size of two new diesel pumps that are being
installed. The fire chief told us to go to the State Fire Marshal if we
wanted to appeal. I'm a bit frustrated with AHJ's right now.

Ron F
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Forest Wilson
Project Manager
193 California St
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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Exhauster

[Forest Wilson]

These exhauster rebuild kits are now available.
I just bought 2 from local Tyco distributor

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1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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Re: Thermal Barrier for Bathrooms

[Forest Wilson]

On your project, I would send an RFI to the Architect and ask: Are the 
bathrooms thermal barrier as required by IBC ?




On 5/15/2014 6:47 PM, Roland Huggins wrote:

That is my understanding (despite the fact that a door is not required to the 
adjacent room).  Never said it ad to be logical.

Roland


Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.   ---  Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org





On May 15, 2014, at 2:31 PM, rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote:


I just ran this very thing by the forum. The consensus was the barrier has to 
isolate the shower enclosure from the wall cavity so the sheet rock would have 
to be on both sides of the stud.
Ron F

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1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

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Changing building from unheated to heated

[Forest Wilson]

Existing system is dry.
owner installed heating in building.
Question: Is there advantage to just changing it to wet (taking out DPV 
and installing a piece of pipe with a flow switch)?

System does have a backflow valve installed.
My initial thought was that the owner would save costs associated with 
annual trip testing of the DPV, draining of the low point drains, etc.


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Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

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Re: sprinkler in confined space

[Forest Wilson]

Basically there isnt much difference between what you described and your 
average indoor McDonald or Burger King Play parks I take my kids to.

Kids tear those apart too.
Why is the term confined space used? Is that what drove the requirement 
for a sprinkler inside?
The same logic could be used to say that a tunnel slide needs fire 
sprinklers...


On 4/28/2014 5:05 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:

Would a child be traumatized if a sprinkler goes off in a confined space such 
as that?  How fast can a momma dial 1-800-call-a-lawyer?   Yeah, no doubt it 
would be a traumatic experience to get doused with cold, dirty water.  If there 
were multiple children in that section during a discharge someone could easily 
end up being trampled in the panic to get out.   I've seen plenty of those 
plastic tubular play houses and I've yet to see one with a sprinkler in it.  
The room they are in are sprinklered, but not within the play tubes themselves.

What kind of code was cited as requiring the internal of this to be sprinklered?

Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group Lead
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - Work
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 4:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: sprinkler in confined space

I have an interesting situation that I would like some input on. I am doing an 
as-built drawing for an indoor playscape based on a medieval village. There are 
a lot of small spaces that need to be sprinklered. One of them is a tunnel, 
approximately 2 ft wide by 2 ft high with an arched ceiling. The tunnel turn in 
a roughly 90 degree arc and is approximately 8 ft long. Per Code, a sprinkler 
is required in this space, which has been installed. However, my concern is 
that if the sprinkler goes off while a child is inside, is the discharge going 
to potentially cause a injury or trauma to the child? We have a static pressure 
in the street of 116 psi, so there would be a lot of water going into a small 
space very rapidly. Anybody else run into something like this?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com
860-535-2080 (ofc)
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1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

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Re: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13?

[Forest Wilson]

 garages around the perimeter of
the building (which all have access from a common 1st floor corridor
only) All the Garages have a 2 hour separation between them and the
2nd level  residential units and the 1st floor corridor. There are
residential units on the 1st floor (opposite the garages) facing the

court yard.

I figured the Garage calculations shall conform to NFPA-13, based on
NFPA-13R (2013ed.) Sec. 7.3.1. My question is if the building can be
classified as a 13R (with garage areas calced at NFPA-13) or should it
be classified as a NFPA-13 with dwelling units  residential heads
(calculations based on the greater of the area/density @ .10 or the
head listing). If not, what is the determining factor or the

threshold.

George Medina Jr.
Mobile: 323-906-5701

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253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
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They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
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Re: de-zincification

[Forest Wilson]

It does affect sprinklers.
I read a White Paper about how it affected dry sprinklers years ago, but 
can't remember who wrote it.



On 4/17/2014 6:48 PM, Thomas Watt wrote:

http://www.meaforensic.com/forensic-engineering-expert-witness/blog/bid/87801/Beware-of-Cheaters-Brass-Cheater-Failures-in-Fire-Protection-Systems

This article describes a phenomenon where, basically, zinc is leeched from
brass leaving behind a weak copper which is prone to failure.
My question is...why would this not affect sprinklers?
Thanks guys...
Thomas
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Re: de-zincification

[Forest Wilson]

I found this report from the NFPA about a zinc problem at a facility.
It's a good case study: 
http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/Files/proceedings/corrosioninsprinklersystemsbhjorth.pdf


On 4/17/2014 10:49 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

Sprinkler manufacturers - at least the USA-based ones - have adopted the use of 
dezincification resistant (DZR) alloys.

Sent while mobile.
John Corcoran, Globe Fire Sprinkler Corporation
+989-439-5694
   Original Message
From: Forest Wilson
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 10:28 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Reply To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: de-zincification


It does affect sprinklers.
I read a White Paper about how it affected dry sprinklers years ago, but
can't remember who wrote it.


On 4/17/2014 6:48 PM, Thomas Watt wrote:

http://www.meaforensic.com/forensic-engineering-expert-witness/blog/bid/87801/Beware-of-Cheaters-Brass-Cheater-Failures-in-Fire-Protection-Systems

This article describes a phenomenon where, basically, zinc is leeched from
brass leaving behind a weak copper which is prone to failure.
My question is...why would this not affect sprinklers?
Thanks guys...
Thomas
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Re: WHEN TO DE USE BACK FLOW PREVENT???

[Forest Wilson]

Most water purveyors want the backflow installed on the supply side of 
the fire pump.



On 4/3/2014 1:49 PM, Cesar Lira wrote:

This has nothing with how far is the pumps room with the sprinklers system??




-Mensaje original-
De: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Enviado el: jueves, 03 de abril de 2014 10:19 a.m.
Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Asunto: RE: WHEN TO DE USE BACK FLOW PREVENT???

A backflow is installed on the water line serving a sprinkler system when
the sprinkler system water comes from a potable (suitable for human
consumption) water source.

The rules are typically provided by the Department of Health or Water
Departments.

The rules may vary depending on the location of your project.

Craig L. Prahl



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cesar
Lira
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 1:07 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: WHEN TO DE USE BACK FLOW PREVENT???

Hi, everybody.

Where can I use or where INEED to use a back flow preventer there is any
rule for that???..


tHANKS

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Re: Recessed heads and escutcheons

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Yes. 
The escutcheons are part of the UL listed assembly. 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message 
From: rongreenman . rongreen...@gmail.com 
Date:04/02/2014  10:14 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Recessed heads and escutcheons 

I know of none that aren't. Also semi-recessed. As far as I can tell only
fully exposed heads, where the escutcheon is merely decorative does not
need to be listed with the head. That would be flat plates and cup and cone
types.


On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 7:00 AM, John Denhardt
jdenha...@stricklandfire.comwrote:

 In my opinion, yes.

 John

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 firs...@aol.com
 Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 9:55 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Recessed heads and escutcheons

 Are all recessed heads listed to be installed with their escutcheons?

 Sent from my iPad
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Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
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They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
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inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: Recessed heads and escutcheons

[Forest Wilson]

@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org



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Re: Recessed heads and escutcheons

[Forest Wilson]

If they say the heads are not model F1, take a picture of the head and 
email it to Reliable and ask if it is a F1 model.


In Indiana, there is a motel full of recalled fire sprinklers. I 
explained to the manager that they were recalled, she called the fire 
chief and he told her that there is no recall of fire sprinklers.


The evil in this and your situation is that if a contractor is deficient 
in work or inspections, he is held liable.
If a government official is incompetent (like say this motel burned with 
casualties), he may have to retire early...may have to take a paid 
vacation while the matter is investigated...
If he is sued, the taxpayers will fund a defense for him and the 
taxpayers are the ones that foot the bill! Even if he looses the lawsuit!



On 4/2/2014 3:01 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Don't feel bad. After having argued a point, with all the pertinent code
references, to no avail, I requested an AFSA informal interpretation. The
response was written by Roland, using the same code path I had, and again
rejected by an inspector whose professional credentials were ten years as a
mechanical draftsman, two as a fire fighter, and two as an AHJ. His comment
on reading the letter, The guy that wrote this obviously doesn't
understand the intent of the code.


On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:46 AM, firs...@aol.com wrote:


Yes, I did request and receive a letter from reliable stating the F1
series escutcheon was part of the listed assembly.  Now apparently they are
telling council the heads are not the F1 series. Now I've got them on the
NFPA section on recesses heads. I've been forced to play this game and
allow them to dig the hole deeper. It is amazing how their ego and self
preservation will overshadow their duty to public safety. Just a shame.

Sent from my iPad


On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:58 AM, Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com

wrote:

If I were you, I would email Reliable Technical Services and ask them:

Can the Model F1 be installed recessed without the escutcheon and still
maintain the UL listing?

Then take their response and forward it to the fire chief and the

council member.

I encounter this incompetence sometimes and i understand your

frustration.




On 4/2/2014 1:53 PM, firs...@aol.com wrote:
They are recessed.

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:26 AM, John Denhardt 

jdenha...@stricklandfire.com wrote:

Are they installed in a recessed manner or are the threads even or

below the ceiling?

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:

sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Owen Evans

Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 12:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Recessed heads and escutcheons

Yes, they are the Reliable F1 series recessed heads.



-Original Message-
From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wed, Apr 2, 2014 9:39 am
Subject: Re: Recessed heads and escutcheons


Owen,

They are correct in this case UNLESS the heads were installed in a
semi-recessed manner. The gap is debateable... but no plate is

required.





Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852



On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Owen Evans firs...@aol.com wrote:

In Redondo Beach, 5 Reliable F1 recessed heads were installed in an
overhang (the heads weren't required in the first place). Two were

simply

pocked through the stucco with about a 3/4 gap around the head into

the

combustible space above. As a citizen knowledgeable in fire protection
systems I advised the Fire Chief and my council representative that

the

fire inspector recently signed off the building with this deficiency.

  The

Fire Chief didn't like me calling out his inspector. He went on to

say in

his email response to defend his inspector;  It is erroneous of Mr.

Evans

to claim the escutcheons are required. Escutcheons are decorative

only and

not even required per code. The Fire Marshal and Deputy Fire Marshal
agreed with the Fire Chief. I was shocked. It became clear to me that

the

problem with incompetence goes beyond the Fire Inspector. Of course

the

city manager and city council believe the Fire Chief because he and

his

team of experts stand behind a badge. Frust
rating.



-Original Message-
From: Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. masorn...@kfi-eng.com
To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wed, Apr 2, 2014 8:50 am
Subject: RE: Recessed heads and escutcheons


Please clarify your intent.  Do you want to install a recessed head
without any
escutcheon, or do you want to use a different brand/model escutcheon

from

that
which is listed with the head?

Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
Engineer |
Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
http://www.kfiengineers.com

-Original

Re:

[Forest Wilson]

I placed 155 in my home utility closet


On 3/25/2014 2:23 PM, rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote:

We use intermediate for everything unless specifically forbiden. Have to watch 
out cuz  some heads not available in intermediate.

- Original Message -
From: Jim Adams [mailto:tfscolor...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 01:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject:


Ifyou have a closet solely with a washer/dryer should you put a standard temp 
orintermediate temp head in it ?  FCU and hot water heater rooms are veryclear 
to use intermediate temp heads..
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///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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Re:

[Forest Wilson]

I think it's deleted; and it seems that only 10% of the posts here are 
technical.


On 3/26/2014 12:08 AM, Bill Cunningham wrote:

Whatever became of that other AFSA Forum that was called Sprinkler Chat,
that was intended for none technical items that we have seen a lot of lately
on this forum ?
Bill Cunningham
Plumbco Inc.
NICET IV

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad
Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:40 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Re:

Actually it just sunk in-- the only thing worse here than somebody talking
about Newton's 3rd Law is somebody talking about Newton's Rule #3


On Mar 25, 2014, at 10:01 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com

wrote:

I been ripped to shreds here for 3 or 4 years, like in training, know what

I mean, now I'm ready to thump on someone, and guess who's up

On Mar 25, 2014, at 9:39 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com

wrote:

Yo yourself Tony- there's no such thing as standard temp-- read your damn

book.

You might have put me on ignore- but you said you like it here and I

fixing to find out how serious you are

On Mar 25, 2014, at 9:32 PM, Scott A Futrell sco...@ffcdi.com wrote:

Tony,

Sometimes people (especially older people) turn the heat up and it does

get above 100 in the closet.

Sometimes furnaces don't operate properly and the high limit switch on

most furnaces is 100, even greater than 130, I've seen them as high as 175
in furnaces in apartments that serve the corridor or common areas.

I haven't seen an intermediate residential sprinkler operate in a

furnace closet when it shouldn't have.  I have seen ordinary temperature
rated residential sprinklers operate in furnace closets when they shouldn't
have.

Scott


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org

[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Palmero

Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: RE: Re:

Yo forum,

So we put in standard temp sprinklers in utility rooms all the time.

 From what my girlfriend says, we can put em in as long as the temp at the
ceiling doesn't go over something like 100 degrees.  Now I don't know about
you, but I don't let it get above 100 in my house and the dryer is always
vented to the outside.  She'd kill me if I let the dryer heat (and fuzz)
stay in the house.

With that said, I can see where a guy would wanna use a 200-212

sprinkler to be safe..  but i understand they cost just a touch more.  I
also heard someplace that qwik response costs more than standard response.
If that's true then things start to come real clear to me.

See ya,

Tony P
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Re: Laminated placards and info signs

[Forest Wilson]

You may need to change your email from the blitzkrieger to the Limp Wrist.


On 3/19/2014 12:50 PM, Ben Young wrote:

No, it actually only takes one to make my hand cramp, I just didn't want to
sound like a baby. ;)


Ron,

Certain jurisdictions in NJ used to require the engraved dual color plastic
placards like you're talking about, and they added so much extra info, the
placard was the same size as a regular sheet of paper.

My main concern with doing this is the AHJs.  I've asked a few local
people, and they wouldn't give me a straight answer for some reason.


Benjamin Young


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.comwrote:


Is your hand really sore and cramping after filling out 2 Hydraulic Plaque
signs?



On 3/18/2014 12:55 PM, Ben Young wrote: I know I can't be the only person
that gets tired of filling out hydraulic placards. My hand starts cramping
up after two, and the last one is always barely legible. Benjamin Young
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Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

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Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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Re: Laminated placards and info signs

[Forest Wilson]

Is your hand really sore and cramping after filling out 2 Hydraulic 
Plaque signs?




On 3/18/2014 12:55 PM, Ben Young wrote: I know I can't be the only 
person that gets tired of filling out hydraulic placards. My hand starts 
cramping up after two, and the last one is always barely legible. 
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1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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Re: Modifying sprinklers

[Forest Wilson]

When I worked for FE Moran, Special Hazards Div. this was standard 
procedure.







On 3/5/2014 12:27 PM, Richard Mote wrote:

Use to do it all the time, Automatic used to make a standard spray pendent 
and upright with a glass strut thru a metal tag with a hole in it. After we pressure 
tested you  could walk through the job with a long pole with a hook on it and pull out 
the struts.

Richard L. Mote
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
7994 Route 522, Suite 1
PO Box 407
Middleburg, PA 17842
P 570-837-7647
F 570-837-6335

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 10:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Modifying sprinklers

OK, thanks for all the input.


We will now return to our regularly scheduled program...



Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group Lead
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
rongreenman .
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 10:04 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Modifying sprinklers

Standard practice in many cases. You use standard spray which aren't listed for a 
particular application. What would you use in an EH that just required sprinklers? 
If I can get the a system to calc through 1/2 closed sprinklers at the 
necessary density I can use them. What's the difference?
In some special application cases you would use open nozzles. In my opinion 
though, you can't modify special app sprinklers (residential, ESFR, etc.) and 
turn them into an inappropriate deluge system. STANDARD SPRAY, in all of its 
configurations (standard response, quick response, differing temperature 
ratings, EC, etc.), remains a generic application sprinkler for a reason.


On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:24 AM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:


Received a shop drawing stating that for the deluge system, the
contractor would purchase standard fused sprinklers and remove the fusible link.

Now I can't find specific NFPA verbiage that would prohibit this but
seems to me that a sprinkler that is listed for LH or OH occupancies
would not be acceptable for an EH deluge system just by popping the
link out.  Wouldn't this also be modifying the sprinkler post production?

Maybe this is done all the time, but what say ye?


I found this statement in 13,
8.4.4 Open Sprinklers.
8.4.4.1 Open sprinklers shall be permitted to be used in deluge
systems to protect special hazards or exposures or in other special
locations.

Seems kind of like a DUH, statement.  What other type of sprinkler
would you use for deluge other than open?


Craig L. Prahl

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Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, 
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Forest Wilson
Project Manager

1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
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RE: Air Testing CPVC Piping

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

I would contact the manufacturer rep and ask for his recommendations in writing 
and then send that to the AHJ


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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guaranteed on the Internet.

 Original message 
From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net 
Date:02/25/2014  1:23 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Air Testing CPVC Piping 

I've always air tested cpvc to 50# for an hour prior to hydro at the rough 
stage of installation, regardless of manufacturer's caution.  Some dry fits can 
hold almost that much unglued when the pipe is properly supported and braced 
allowing little room for slipping.  I hydro with premix glycerin in the winter 
and after 2 hours, drop it back to 100 and leave it for the sheet-rocking 
stage.  And I advise them all it's under pressure so be careful screwing and 
most important (to me anyway) don't bend the head to meet your hole that's off 
just because you think you can.
TD


Most CPVC manufacturers advise against air testing a CPVC piping system since 
pipe failures usually are very dangerous because of the plastic fragments 
produced by the pipe failure. There is a lot of energy store in a pipe system 
being tested with air. The stored energy is capable of causing a fatality due 
to flying pipe shards. 

I would recommend against  testing with air.

Regards

Jim

We have an AHJ requiring a 50 psi test on CPVC piping, we think that is 
excessive, and have always used 20 psi max. I know the best practice is to do a 
hydrostatic test, but thanks to the polar vortex we are having freezing 
temperatures and the builder needs to close up his walls. Right now we are 
looking for chapter and verse as to what the maximum recommended pressure is 
for an air test. Have looked through 3 different CPVC installation handbooks 
but the number is not jumping out at me. The TYCO Residential Dry System runs 
10 - 15 psi pressure. Note: This is not  a residential dry system we are trying 
to air test a system so the drywall can go on. When the building gets the heat 
turned on it will be a wet system.

Richard L. Mote 

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Re: seismic bracing calcs

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Locate per 13 and send a calc sheet only if required in plan review. 



Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message 
From: rongreenman . rongreen...@gmail.com 
Date:02/20/2014  11:36 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs 

From the Piemontesi to the greasy Sicilian, with molte amore. I won't hold
it against you that your family is from the rock of hell in the Med 'cause
you always explain the problem so clearly. And Letyon's OK too.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.comwrote:

 Right - all of the above.   We put the calc's on our detail sheet(s)
 next to enlarged sketches of the proposed anchorage.

 Steve L.




 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 Brian Harris
 Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 6:32 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs

 Both...

 Brian Harris, CET
 BVS Systems Inc.
 bvssytemsinc.com

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:27 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: seismic bracing calcs

 Seismic design category C, contractor submittal package,

 Do you provide a calc sheet for EQ bracing or just locate per NFPA 13
 and send typical catalog data sheets?

 FM Global project, BTW.

 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com

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Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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RE: Butterfly valve, monitered or not?

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Just Change it from NO to NC when you connect the contacts 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message 
From: John Denhardt jdenha...@stricklandfire.com 
Date:02/17/2014  4:56 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Butterfly valve, monitered or not? 

Wait a second.

It looks like the NFPA 20 committee cleaned this section up in 2013 and now 
allows (thanks Chris for the post)

(3) Locking valves open
(4) Sealing of valves and approved weekly recorded inspection where valves are 
located within fenced enclosures under the control of the owner.

That makes more sense.  We were locking them open for years.  

The point is that these control valves do not affect the system operation.  The 
worse that could happen is the piping or test header valves would freeze and 
break.

About three years ago, the industry (NIBCO and Victaulic that I remember off 
the top of my head) have started providing normal closed butterfly valves that 
are correctly supervised to operate within 2 turns from closed.  While these 
valves are available, they cost more than a normal butterfly valve.

John


John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
5113 Berwyn Road
College Park, Maryland 20740
Office Telephone Number:  301-474-1136
Mobile Telephone Number:  301-343-1457
FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them?


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
rfletc...@aerofire.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 4:44 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Butterfly valve, monitered or not?

Agreed. Most normally closed valves cause something else to happen when opened 
(start a pump or dump a deluge system) and that something else is usually 
alarmed..

Ron F

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John 
Denhardt
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 2:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Butterfly valve, monitered or not?

Agree.  However, this is similar to a fire pump test header control valve. The 
NFPA 20 committee thought it was important enough to supervise the fire pump 
test header valve.  To me, this is a wasteful requirement but it is a 
requirement.  We need this requirement changed.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
5113 Berwyn Road
College Park, Maryland 20740
Office Telephone Number:  301-474-1136
Mobile Telephone Number:  301-343-1457
FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them?


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad 
Casterline
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 4:07 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Butterfly valve, monitered or not?

Douglas,

Search the archives for 'full forward flow test control valves'.
lots of good stuff and fairly recent.
brad

-Original Message-
From: Douglas Hicks [mailto:fire...@eoni.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 2:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Butterfly valve, monitered or not?

I am going to install a 4 butterfly valve on a sprinkler manifold.  This will 
give us an outlet to perform a Forward Flow.  Does the valve need to be 
monitored or will it be OK to use a chain to lock the valve in the closed
position?   
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Re: Testing for Air Leaks in Dry Fire Sprinkler System

[Forest Wilson]

Check the pressure switch before you start using colored smoke


On 2/12/2014 5:06 PM, Douglas Hicks wrote:

Tell us more about the colored smoke.  I have not heard of that before.

-Original Message- From: rongreenman .
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Testing for Air Leaks in Dry Fire Sprinkler System

Drop the air and pump in colored smoke and you can see the leaks.


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:21 AM, James McHugh 
jmch...@testandrain.comwrote:



Hi All,
A friend of mine has a busy (loud) automobile bay with a dry fire
sprinkler system which is located near a highway.  He has complained 
that

the compressor is running too often. I explained that usually means air
leaks. He posed the question of what various ways can they detect air
leaks. Can members of the forum reply with as many ways as possible?
Thanks
Jim McHugh
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1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are 
addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system 
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Re: OBSOLETE SPRINKLER

[Forest Wilson]

NFPA 25, as I recall, used to require same manufacturer but that was
changed a few years ago to Same characteristics/ specs.

I only mentioned same manufacturer in the purpose of this thread, changing
K Factor on obsolete recalled sprinklers.

You would have to look in 25 for clarification.

I do know that the replacement models that Tyco used in the replacement
program were approved of by the federal government.
On Jan 24, 2014 10:22 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote:

 (Oops) I think I am correct accidentally- I took 'like for like' meaning
 any manufacturer and being 5.?, 8.?, and 14.?

  On Jan 24, 2014, at 9:16 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
 wrote:
 
  You are welcome Steve and thanks Forest but I think I
 
  On Jan 24, 2014, at 5:56 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
 wrote:
 
  Flex heads are acceptable, but if used, the flanges shall be 250 lb
 rated.
 
  On Jan 24, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. 
 masorn...@kfi-eng.com wrote:
 
  Make someone do the job they were paid to do.
 
  -Craig L. Prahl, CET
 
 
  But-but...Craig!  The specs said do it per code.  They DID their
 job right?  And they also said make sure the water supply is
 adequate; and get the approval of the authorities; and only use certain
 types of copper pipe, etc.; and no extended coverage sprinklers, 'cuz
 that's untested technology...  What more needs to be done?
  Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
 Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
 http://www.kfiengineers.com
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Re: OBSOLETE SPRINKLER

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

You are correct. 
You do not need to do calcs unless you use a head manufactured by other than 
Tyco. 
Tycos agreement with the federal government is to replace with a like for 
Like model


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected 
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 Original message 
From: Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com 
Date:01/24/2014  7:26 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: OBSOLETE SPRINKLER 

The hope though is, as I learned from a recent similar thread is that if you 
replace an old K=14.?? with a new K=14.?? you will be replacing 'like for like' 
and revised calcs should not be required.

 On Jan 22, 2014, at 8:14 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote:
 
 If an old K=14.2 said .64, then an old .70 should be around K=14.63. But I 
 fear you will have to use K=14.0 if you have to calc the replacement heads :(
 
 On Jan 22, 2014, at 4:02 PM, John Corcoran j...@globesprinkler.com wrote:
 
 Go to www.sprinklerreplacement.com ‎for the identification guide to identify 
 the ESLO or any of the other Central o-ring heads.
 
 Sent while mobile.
 John Corcoran, Globe Fire Sprinkler Corporation
 +989-439-5694
 From: Steve Sorrell
 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:50 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Reply To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: OBSOLETE SPRINKLER
 
 
 None shown
 
 Stephen J. Sorrell, CET
 NICET# 77901 Level III
 E mail: ssorr...@performancefire.com
 
 Performance Fire Protection, LLC
 Corporate Office
 179 Gasoline Alley -  PO Box 4510
 Mooresville, NC 28117
 Phone: 704-663-1664  Fax: 704-663-1652
 Cell : 704-309-1242
 
 Web: www.performancefire.comhttp://www.performancefire.com
 Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL
 
 Performance on Every Level.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - 
 Work
 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:44 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: OBSOLETE SPRINKLER
 
 What is the K factor?
 
 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.comhttp://www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
 
 On Jan 22, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Steve Sorrell ssorr...@performancefire.com 
 wrote:
 
 Does anyone know of a replacement head for a Central ESLO .70 upright head ?
 
 Stephen J. Sorrell, CET
 NICET# 77901 Level III
 E mail:
 ssorr...@performancefire.commailto:ssorr...@performancefire.com
 
 Performance Fire Protection, LLC
 Corporate Office
 179 Gasoline Alley -  PO Box 4510
 Mooresville, NC 28117
 Phone: 704-663-1664  Fax: 704-663-1652 Cell : 704-309-1242
 
 Web: 
 www.performancefire.comhttp://www.performancefire.comhttp://www.performancefire.comhttp://www.performancefire.com
 Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL
 
 Performance on Every Level.
 
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RE: Dry System I.T.C.

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Ive seen it done. 
Just ensure you use the sprinkler orifice size on the ITC.  
Most remote area..


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message 
From: G. Tim Stone tston...@comcast.net 
Date:01/23/2014  12:12 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Dry System I.T.C. 

Not as the ITC but at the bottom of the ITC leg. One job we had 2
branchlines on the dry system.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

    117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: (802) 373-0638   TEL: (802) 434-2968   Fax: (802) 434-4343
   tston...@comcast.net

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian
 Harris
 Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 11:39 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Dry System I.T.C.
 
 Has anyone ever used a Drum Drip (aux. drain) on a dry system as the
I.T.C.
 as well ?
 
 Brian Harris, CET
 BVS Systems Inc.
 Sprinkler Division
 bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/
 Phone: 704.896.9989
 Fax: 704.896.1935
 
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Re: Swimming Pools RFI

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

We have to remember that the Building Code tells us when to sprinkle and 13 
tells us how to sprinkle. 
A fully sprinklered building is fully sprinklered. 
Ive read numerous informal interpretations on pool areas but they are 
consistent in that the 13 committee considers it an area that needs 
sprinklered. 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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guaranteed on the Internet.

 Original message 
From: ParsleyConsulting ken4p...@gmail.com 
Date:01/22/2014  5:28 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Swimming Pools RFI 

Jerry,
 The only reference I could find in NFPA 13 is not a direct 
requirement, but rather is annex material to support 6.2.6.1on areas 
where corrosion resistant sprinklers are required.  One of the examples 
is areas over and around swimming pools, which sort of suggest those 
areas are to be sprinklered.
 I haven't looked at the Building or Fire Code.
*

PARSLEY CONSULTING

*

Ken Wagoner

760.745.6181 voice

760.745.0537 fax

website: www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com

On 1/22/2014 2:19 PM, accentf...@aol.com wrote:
 Guyz/Gals:


 I know that, at one time, there was a 'blurb' about sprinkler protection over 
 swimming pool areas. We have just spent a fairly significant amount of time 
 looking for the 'requirement' in recent editions of 13 - and have been unable 
 to find a specific citation. Aside from all areas are required to be 
 sprinklered... can anyone assist us with a specific reference to swimming 
 pool areas (hotel/motels, et al) - in any Code - needing to be sprinkler 
 protected. I remember reading about the possibility of the pool being emptied 
 and the pool itself and/or surrounding areas being used for 'storage' of 
 combustible materials, but that was years ago...



 Any assistance will be much appreciated - we are performing a third-party 
 review and our PE/FPE is stuck.



 Regards to All. Gracias!!




 Jerry
 accentf...@aol.com


 Jerry D. Watts, SFPE
 President  Co-Founder
 ACCENT FIRE ENGINEERING INT'L. Ltd.
 Santa Fe, New Mexico USA








 -Original Message-
 From: Brian Harris bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com
 To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 3:09 pm
 Subject: RE: Reusing Heads


 Thanks!

 Brian Harris, CET
 BVS Systems Inc.
 bvssytemsinc.com

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
 On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 12:34 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Reusing Heads

 It's also in NFPA 25 for good measure.


 Steve Leyton




 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Morey, 
 Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 9:25 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Reusing Heads

 In 2013 6.2.1 (and added clarification in section 6.2.1.1)

 Mike Morey, CFPS, SET
 Planner Scheduler/Designer
 BMWC Constructors, Inc.
 1740 W. Michigan St, Indianapolis, IN 46222
 O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111
 mo...@bmwc.com | www.bmwc.com

 
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] on behalf of Brian Harris
 [bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 12:17 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Reusing Heads

 I know I've seen it somewhere but can someone point me to the section of
 NFPA-13 that says once you remove a head you have to replace it with a new 
 one?

 Brian Harris, CET
 BVS Systems Inc.
 Sprinkler Division
 bvssystemsinc.comhttp://bvssystemsinc.com/
 Phone: 704.896.9989
 Fax: 704.896.1935

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Re: Street elbows

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

I dont underatand how a fitting would be considered a pipe nipple. 
The prohibition against using 1/2 pipe in earthquake zones should not apply to 
the use of street l fittings. 

If it did, then the same argument could could made against using any 1/2 
fitting.  


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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 Original message 
From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 
Date:01/17/2014  5:33 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Street elbows 

I thought this was about using 1 st ells in a tight spot, not changing 
uprights to pendants. And of course you can use them and they're readily 
available through plumbing suppliers if your sprinkler supplier doesn't have 
them. They come in reducing types, in black steel, galvy, stainless, bronze, 
and in weights (strength) equivalent to schedule 40, 80, 120  160. Very common 
for industrial boiler application.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jan 17, 2014, at 2:23 PM, Todd - Work t...@fpdc.com wrote:
 
 Charles, I would be careful. You can't use 1/2 nipples in an earthquake zone 
 (8.15.19.4.4). Given your proximity to Charleston, this may be a concern. I 
 would assume street elbows (if permitted) would fall under the same category. 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
 
 On Jan 17, 2014, at 5:05 PM, Kenneth Berman thekennyber...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 close nipples are as close as street ells. 1/2 x 1/2 x 1 tees and you can
 leave the uprights, or for tight spaces where you can eliminate the
 upright, use 1 x 1 x 1/2 with a 1 plug.
 
 
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.comwrote:
 
 Hello All,
 
 I do wish I could find some 1/2 Male x 1 Female Street ells for a
 upright to pendant conversion project.
 
 Friday, January 17, 2014, 4:25:23 PM, you wrote:
 
 I think it comes down to if the street elbows are made according to
 the appropriate ASTM standard from Table 6.4.1. In your defense,
 6.4.6.1 states that unless circumstances exist where hex bushings
 are allowed, one piece reducer fittings shall be used for a change in
 pipe size.
 
 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
 
 On Jan 17, 2014, at 3:43 PM, Morey, Mike mo...@bmwc.com wrote:
 
 So I seem to remember this being a no-no but the code doesn't seem to
 explicitly prohibit us from using them.  I have a tight squeeze where a 1
 male x female street elbow would be helpful, but I want to make sure I'm
 not missing something in 13 that prohibits it, we use the 2010 edition.
 
 
 Mike Morey, CFPS, SET
 Planner Scheduler/Designer
 BMWC Constructors, Inc.
 1740 W. Michigan St, Indianapolis, IN 46222
 O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111
 mo...@bmwc.commailto:ma...@bmwc.com | www.bmwc.com
 http://www.bmwc.com/
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 --
 Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
 Systems Design Manager
 NICET Certified
 
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Hydrostatic Testing Relocated Drops

[Forest Wilson]

Question:

Are relocated drops considered modified sprinklers under NFPA 13
definitions?
Project has less than 20 sprinklers (existing branch lines and mains, new
sprinklers are drops installed into new mechanical tees)
More than 20 existing drops are being relocated.

Is a hydrostatic test of 200 required?

I know this has been addressed before but i can't find links and need to
wrap this up this week 
On Jan 14, 2014 5:59 PM, Gregg Fontes gr...@cen-calfire.com wrote:

 In reviewing my own questions, I see in NFPA 13 Chapter 16 2013 that class
 I - IV storage to 25' high with a 35' deck K14 are still shown @ 75-psi.
  Over 40' deck with 25' storage they are not shown.  However, for storage
 of class I - IV greater than 25',  a building with a 40' deck and 30'
 storage they are shown at 75-psi.  So it looks like there is an issue with
 the clearance between top of storage and deck  that is going to dictate
 when K14's are allowed.  I have not checked the other storage chapters yet,
 but I will.  Any one's input still would be interesting.

 Thanks,
 Gregg Fontes
 Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
 209-334-9119
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes
 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:22 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: ESFR K14 Sprinklers

 The following was sent to me by a developer.  I had heard some rumors
 through the circles that this may be happening.  Has any seen or heard that
 this is truly happen later this year?

 We're finding out (via a tenant's fire consultant) that the fire code
 changes in September 2014 in that they no longer allow K14 sprinkler heads
 in new construction. Also, only a certain (newer)  type of the K17 head
 which only two manufacturers have in limited supply but are production.
 We're finding that many fire jurisdictions and contractors are not yet
 aware and have not commented back to us.

 Thanks,
 Gregg Fontes
 Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
 209-334-9119

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Re: NICET Training

[Forest Wilson]

Yes. The NFSA, AFSA and NFPA all offer classes
On Jan 14, 2014 12:54 PM, James D. Waite jdwa...@flsamerica.com wrote:

 Has anyone used the NTC or FireTech training material for Sprinkler
 Inspection  Testing?  Is it worth it? Is one better than the other? Are
 there any other good ones available.


 Thanks,

 Jimmy Waite, CET - Design Manager
 Fire  Life Safety America- Raleigh District
 7711 Welborn Street, Suite 103
 Raleigh, NC  27615
 Office: 919-872-3250
 Cell: 919-868-3546
 Fax: 919-877-5775
 www.flsamerica.com




 

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Re: crematorium

[Forest Wilson]

This brought a smile to my face tonight, to read his name mentioned.
I remember him as a sprinkler man, but also as a devout Christian.
Before he passed, I sent him a note expressing my sorrow for hearing of 
his illness; I happened to mention that I was going through a rough 
patch myself (though obviously minor to his)...
Irregardless, he took his time to counsel me and share that he was a 
former Deacon of the Methodist Church and advised me to grieve in the 
difficult times, but remember to cheer and celebrate the good times.


I wanted to share that since Mr. Church's name was brought up.

On 1/13/2014 11:16 AM, John Denhardt wrote:

I am sure George Church is smiling with that one Ron.

John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
5113 Berwyn Road
College Park, Maryland 20740
Office Telephone Number:  301-474-1136
Mobile Telephone Number:  301-343-1457
FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them?


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
rongreenman .
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 10:19 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: crematorium

Fire Sprinklers Save Lives. Sorry, I couldn't resist.


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 4:47 AM, Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com wrote:


standalone


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:43 AM, John Drucker jdruc...@redbanknj.org

wrote:
Is is part of another use ? Or standalone ?
John Drucker - Mobile Email

- Original Message -
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Mon Jan 13 07:42:12 2014
Subject: crematorium

Can anyone help guide us with sprinkler requirements in any (national)

code

for a crematorium?

Thanks

--
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852
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--
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852
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--
Forest Wilson
Project Manager

1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

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re: Attention SprinklerForum Subscribers Using AOL and Yahoo Mail

[Forest Wilson]

This email was very helpful.
I've had problems for years.
Ironically I preferred AOL for emailing prints, etc but always had problems
with the Forum emails.

I opened up a Gmail account as you suggested.

Thabk you so much for this info.
On Jan 6, 2014 1:04 PM, Maurice Marvi maur...@marvi.org wrote:

 Steve, I've had my own prblem with AOL email addresses. They think my Web
 Host is a spammer.

 Good luck

 Maurice Marvi

 

 From: Steve Muncy smu...@firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 12:05 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Attention SprinklerForum Subscribers Using AOL and Yahoo Mail

 Attention SprinklerForum Subscribers Using AOL and Yahoo Mail!

 ---

 Many (not all) subscribers to the AFSA SprinklerForum are no longer
 receiving messages because delivery is being blocked by AOL and Yahoo.
 About 50 percent of Yahoo email users and 70 percent of AOL email users
 have been blocked and are no longer receiving SprinklerForum messages. If
 you are currently using an @aol.com or @yahoo.com email account and
 you are still receiving SprinklerForum messages, it is possible that you
 will be blocked in the future.

 Unfortunately there is nothing we can really do about this. The email
 servers at AOL and Yahoo have long been a problem, but in the past few
 years we haven't had many issues..but the problem has now cropped up again
 starting in December. The AOL servers and Yahoo servers don't always place
 nice with list servers and block our messages as spam. Our list server will
 continue to try to deliver messages when it receives a bounced mail
 message - but after awhile it gives up and sets the account as inactive
 with no mail delivery.

 What can you do about this?
 --

 (1) If you have received a message from out list server notifying you of
 the problem, or if you are no longer receiving SprinklerForum emails, you
 can contact AOL or Yahoo and see if they can pass through forum email to
 your mail account. This won't be easy but you can give it a shot. Try
 sending email to postmas...@aol.com or postmas...@yahoo.com and
 alerting them that you want email from @lists.firesprinkler.org to be
 delivered and not bounced. (I'll be surprised if you have any luck with
 this approach, but it may be worth trying.)

 (2) You might want to consider re-subscribing to the sprinklerForum with
 another email address. You can obtain a free email address from Google (
 gmail.com) or Hotmail (hotmail.com). We have not had any problem with
 those email servers. (This approach is more likely work for you.)

 I have unblocked all AOL and Yahoo accounts in an attempt to make sure
 that everyone can monitor their account with the SprinklerForum, but if
 messages from the forum continue to be bounced by AOL or Yahoo, our
 software automatically cut off service again. After one month, we will
 delete the accounts of all those AOL and Yahoo subscribers whose account
 has been suspended due to bounced messages.

 Steve A. Muncy, CAE - President
 American Fire Sprinkler Assn. -- FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES!
 Dallas, TX
 http://www.firesprinkler.org

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No Test Cert, No Main Drain tests to compare

[Forest Wilson]

I have a question:

A few weeks ago, I posted that I had conducted a main drain test on a 
system installed in 1996.

Since installation, this was the first main drain test performed.
The Hydraulic Calc Plaque showed residual 40 psi.
My main drain test was 15 psi.

Since the difference exceeded 10%, and there were no former main tests 
to compare to, I compared to the Hydraulic plaque and wrote the owner a 
letter informing them that the system may be impaired and recommended 
further investigation. I recommended that they obtain the Contractors 
Test Certificate since that is the only main drain we can compare to.


The owner has been unable to obtain the Test Cert.
They contacted the installation contractor and the contractor has the 
As-Builts and original hydrant flow test but not the Test Certificate.
As a side note, the installation was terrible, upright sprinklers 
installed 6' below roof level, upright installed as a pendent, etc. I 
didnt note these on the inspection since I was just doing an NFPA 25 
inspection.


What is the recommended course of action?
I don't need suggestions about NFPA 25 or liability to me (the owner is 
an organization I belong to)

; What is the recommended course of action for the owner?

--
Forest Wilson
Project Manager

1855 Bellbrook Ave Ste C
Xenia OH 45385
Ph: 937-736-0425

///WHO IS JOHN GALT?///

**This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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RE: Abrasive Blasting Operation

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

For clarification,  only cellophane bags are permitted. 
The common sandwich bags are not cellophane and not acceptable for covering a 
sprinkler with. 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

Notice:
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected 
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guaranteed on the Internet.

 Original message 
From: Taylor, Galen galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov 
Date:12/18/2013  12:33 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Abrasive Blasting Operation 

Jim,

I would think walnut shells to be a better blasting media for the purpose to 
protect precision machined surfaces, but they're probably using steel to 
achieve more tooth for the corrosion resistant coating they apply next. 
Nevertheless, to protect sprinkler heads from accumulating media dust use the 
cheapest sandwich baggies you can find, just as you would do for a paint spray 
booth.

Galen Taylor
County of Los Angeles Fire Department
Fire Prevention Engineering
323-890-4339
galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kettler
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Abrasive Blasting Operation

We have a facility installing a large new abrasive blasting booth. The booth 
uses steel grit/shot.

Is there a requirement for the fire sprinkler system to be extended into the 
booth? If so, how are the sprinklers protected?

It used solely for abrasive blasting - the spray finishing operations are in 
another protected booth.

Thanks!

Jim K.





James M. Kettler, EFO, CFPS
Director of Building and Codes/Fire Marshal PO Box 413
4613 Hughesian Drive
Buckingham, PA   18912
215.794.8836 (office)


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RE: EQ Bracing

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

Keep simple?
4 way every change of direction. 
Longitudinal every 80.  
Latitudes every 40.  
Flexible couplings top and bottom of riser. 

These guidelines will satisfy most building departments.  
Some will want calculations etc.  


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you 
may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by 
fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for 
response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be 
guaranteed on the Internet.

 Original message 
From: JD Gamble jgam...@lssofsheridan.com 
Date:12/10/2013  4:58 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: EQ Bracing 

What are the best “Keep It Simple Stupid” resources for seismic applications?

And, ... is EQ bracing limited to only those floors above grade?



JD Gamble
Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan
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Main Drain Inspection Test

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Contractor]

I recently inspected a wet sprinkler system. 
It was installed in 1997 and had not been inspected or tested since 
installation. 
I conducted a main drain test. 
The residual pressure was 30 psi. Static 75. 
According to the hydraulic calc plaque, the residual should be 60. 
The gauge was downstream of the main drain, approx 80 feet of pipe downstream. 

I sent a Notice of Impairment to the owner and requested a copy of the 
Contractors Test Cert to use as a benchmark. 
The installing contractor told the owner: the pressure gauge is installed in 
the wrong place and the system is fine. 

Any thoughts? 


Forest Wilson
Fire Sprinkler Contractor
937-736-0425

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by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by 
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guaranteed on the Internet.

 Original message 
From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net 
Date:12/06/2013  6:02 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: NFPA 13D Water Supplies 

Dude,
I believe every tank system has refill whether off another pump and tank, or
traditional domestic.  We do pumps and tanks all over Boston (13D up to 3
family but 20 minute supply per Maurice P.) mainly because the purveyors are
so expensive with permits, bonds, tap fees and pipe rentals that Owners have
spent the cost of the tank system before they dig a hole.
I believe you also have to factor in domestic usage so refill may not be as
great.  I've never taken a credit for it because I'm leery of degradation of
the pumps over time.  I will say SPP (and others) make good 220/1 pumps but
I'd advise using a  SS fitted pump rather than CI, about $75 more for the
typical 2 HP end suction variety.  I would also advise getting a pump
control panel too.  CH makes a nice one sold through RH Stearns in
Portsmouth, NH.  It has an off-delay which helps with hammer prevalent in
these systems and will also drive a bell or horn/strobe and has dry contacts
for Fire Alarm.  One thing I did with the last two I bought was to install a
run timer, $50 from Grainer, 1 yr. battery, and runs the pump once a week
for 10 minutes.  Keeps it working.  One other thing, install a low pressure
switch on the riser and connect as alarm.  That way if you lose power and
have no water supply and a head opens, the alarm still rings through its
batteries and people get out.
Dude

Folks,

Been watching the thread and wanted to chime in a little as Mr. Huggins, PE
has done.

Any 220V pump and any tank that will hold water are an acceptable supplies
in areas served by well water.  And when sizing the tank, you may use the
water supply's refill rate to eliminate some of the gallons required to be
stored.  So on a home with a well pump (that probably already has it's own
pump and pressure tank), you can branch off of that supply and fill a tank.
That tank can be sized like so: 

Demand gpm X 10 minutes = Total Water (in gallons)

Home water Supply gpm X 10 minutes = Total Refill (in gallons)

Total Water MINUS Total Refill = Tank Size

Two sprinklers (YES!  ONLY CALC 2 IN THE BASEMENT) x 10 minutes usually
equals less than 300 gallons total.  Subtract 100 gallons or so for refill
and you only need a 200 gallon tank.  A 6ft tall, 30 diameter tank (fits
through a 32 door), will suffice (+/- 220gallons).  

A 2HP pump can handle this (up to 45 psi).  See SPD Pumps for some really
good charts and products.http://www.spdinc.com/products/residential.html
(Or call and talk to Dave and tell him I said, YO!)

This is a very inexpensive solution for a rural home.



It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the
NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance
with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore
not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the
NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. 

Sincerely,


Cecil Bilbo 
Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology
Champaign, IL
217.607.0325
www.sprinkleracademy.com
ce...@sprinkleracademy.com

OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!!      
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RE: resurrecting an old system

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

I would air test first but I think you will need the water test to find leaks  


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Scott A Futrell sco...@ffcdi.com 
Date: 11/20/2013  9:06 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: resurrecting an old system 
 
I like the replace it all option...
How old is the system to start with?
You need to replace all the sprinklers, if some have popped you don't know 
how many others may be damaged.
What about gaskets in grooved couplings?
Is the water supply now equal to the original pump and pond? If not, pipe size 
changes, right?
You could minimize the liability by replacing everything...

Scott
 
(763) 425-1001 Office
(612) 759-5556 Cell


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - Work
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: resurrecting an old system

I am working with a company that bought a building where the sprinkler system 
had been turned off about 10 years ago. The fire department is requiring that a 
system be turned on. The existing system was fed from a pump taking suction 
from a pond (disconnected and removed). There has been some cracking and 
splitting of fittings at low points and some heads have popped. 

The first step was to have a contractor come in and made a detailed visual 
inspection of the system, including internal. That showed that all of the pipe 
up high appears to be in good shape and could possibly be re-used. However, 
there was some mud (not scale) that had collected in some of the mains.

My thought was that the next step would be to fix or cap off the broken areas 
and do an air test to see what the integrity of the system really is, then 
flush the system if all looks good. However, would you want to flush out the 
mains before you do an air test? If there is a problem with the mains in the 
area covered by the mud, would the air test not show it? On the other side, 
flushing would create a problem since there is no public water supply. We would 
probably have to get a fire department pumper involved. Also, you could have an 
issue if the water finds a leak and water starts spraying down on equipment

Thoughts? Flush or air test first?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com
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RE: Polystyrene Peanuts

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

So if they don't hang from the ceilings  and instead construct a structure to 
hang the bags from the question still exists. 

You can visit any ups store or fedex office kinkos and find bags hung from 
the ceiling. 


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Thomas Reinhardt treinha...@wheelingil.gov 
Date: 11/08/2013  7:45 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Polystyrene Peanuts 
 
A simple solution is to tell them that they can't hang anything from the 
ceiling. The anchoring of the ceiling is only rated to hold up ceiling 
components. Under fire conditions this could cause early collapse of the 
ceiling. Granted the bags are light, but nothing should hang from the ceiling.


From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
rfletc...@aerofire.com [rfletc...@aerofire.com]
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:53 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Polystyrene Peanuts

Anyone have experience with a place where the make the peanuts, this one is 
about 30k sqft.. Storage areas are petty cut  dry design wise but in the 
production area they have these big bags hanging from the ceiling with the 
peanuts in them. The bags are about 10'X10' at the top and square for the first 
15' or so down then they tapper to a discharge nozzle. The top of the bag is 
only a couple feet below the roof (28'+/-). I am wondering if there is any need 
to protect under the bags. There is really no place to collect heat and no 
structure to support pipe.
Ron F


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Re: NFPA25 scope

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

I've encountered this from the recalled sprinkler heads issue and I do believe 
that recalled components should be identified. 
If the only thing we are willing to conduct and guarantee is a main drain test 
then the owners may as well self perform that because a trained monkey can do 
that. 




Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Roland Huggins rhugg...@firesprinkler.org 
Date: 11/06/2013  10:12 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: NFPA25 scope 
 
ACtually this issue is much broader than NFPA 25.  NFPA is asking the question, 
what if anything that it do to reduce the number of failures of the sprinkler 
system to control the fire (due to changes of contents changes in the water 
supply, etc where the water discharge is not enough to control the fire).  One 
of the question is should verifying the adequacy of the sprinkler system be 
part of an NFPA 25 inspection or some other NFPA document?

That is the starting point for this thread.  What do you gals and guys think?

Roland

Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.   ---  Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org





On Nov 5, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Douglas Hicks fire...@eoni.com wrote:

 http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/november-december-2013/features/closer-look?order_src=C246
 
 More on 25 and the scope of 25.
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RE: Head Guards

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

The best practice would be to submit the product sheets to the AHJ and ask for 
a variance to install the head guards. 
If he attaches them to the plywood then that's part of the ceiling and not part 
of the head though. And that affects the 18 clearance rule. 


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Gregory Lindholm greg0...@msn.com 
Date: 11/05/2013  11:33 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Head Guards 
 
Yes John, that is the way I remembered it.
Thanks

 From: jdenha...@stricklandfire.com
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Head Guards
 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 16:07:34 +
 
 My educated guess is that there are no listed sprinkler guards for 
 semi-recessed sprinklers.  NFPA 13 requires the guard to be listed with the 
 specific sprinkler.
 
 Bottom line - not available if you want to comply with NFPA 13.
 
 John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE
 Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
 5113 Berwyn Road
 College Park, Maryland 20740
 Office Telephone Number:  301-474-1136
 Mobile Telephone Number:  301-343-1457
 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them?
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jamey 
 Prentice
 Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 11:02 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Head Guards
 
 FPPI no idea on listing though
 
 From: Gregory Lindholm
 Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 10:58 AM
 To: SprinklerFORUM
 Reply To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Head Guards
 
 
 I think that this was discussed before, but are there any head guards 
 available for semi-recessed heads?
 I do not think that there are, but I have a customer that is looking for even 
 something that he could screw to the plywood ceiling that the heads are 
 coming through. (This is in an ice arena locker room.)
 Greg Lindholm
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RE: Pipe supports revisited (Pipe support spacing requirements for structural supports)

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

Im not qualified to answer but my opinion is that much of these standards were 
put In place for industry before internet, etc.  
So that every job does not need to be reviewed by an engineer.  

I was told the 250 lb requirement was to support the weight of the fitter 
hanging the pipe. I don't know why the 5X rule was added. 

The standard always has allowed for equivalency in product or requirement.  


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Hinson, Ryan rhin...@burnsmcd.com 
Date: 10/29/2013  2:38 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org,k...@parsleyconsulting.com 
Cc: Leahy, Andrew P aple...@burnsmcd.com,Reene,Kevin 
kre...@burnsmcd.com,Eberly,   M. David mebe...@burnsmcd.com,Jordan, 
David djor...@burnsmcd.com 
Subject: Pipe supports revisited (Pipe support spacing requirements for
structural supports) 
 
I'm getting tired of going toe-to-toe with every structural and piping engineer 
regarding fire protection related pipe support and spacing requirements on 
every time I work on a refinery-type project and hoping a hanging and support 
committee member might weigh in here.  The spacing limitations and required 
loading per pipe support in conformance with NFPA is actually driving a 
potential $200K cost increase just for the pipe supports (of which FW piping is 
but one of several supported systems) on a single project.

Two questions:

1.   Does anyone know why the safety factor is 5X the weight of the 
water-filled pipe exists or from where it originates?  The 2013 edition of NFPA 
13 has been revised from the 2010 edition and commentary has been included 
requiring structural engineers to also design for 5X  Section 9.1.1.2 
requires SE's to design supports to include:

-  5X the weight of the water-filled pipe plus 250 lbs

2.   Why is spacing limited to 15 ft...with one known exception?  NFPA 13 
(2013) Section 9.1.1.2 further limits SE's to:

-  Spacing of supports cannot exceed 15 ft per Tables 9.2.2.1(a  b) 
...which only includes piping through 8.
Some supporting Code:

-  NFPA 13 Section 9.1.1.3.1.1 allows pipe support design to use 5X... 
based on ultimate stress while Section 9.1.1.3.1.2 allows it to be done using 
5X... and 1.5X the weight of the other supported systems.  Both these sections 
require reference back to Section 9.1.1.2 only allowing spacing to 15 ft.

-  It appears that NFPA forcing pipe support design through a pretty 
small window through which can be designed though not its primary function.

-  It should also be noted that NFPA 15 (2012) Section 6.3.2.2.2 allows 
a limited extension of support spacing with the addition of diagonal 
bracing...again, only pipe sizing up through 8 is addressed.

-  NFPA 24 (2013) and NFPA 13(2013), both Sections A.10.4.1(3), refers 
to AWWA M11 for applicable documents for the installation of pipe and fittings 
which allows distances exceeding those in NFPA 13 Tables 9.2.2.1(a  b) or NFPA 
15 Table 6.3.2.2.2 (though this is specifically for depth of cover subject 
matter).

o   AWWA M11 Chapter 7 states the load is determined to be the weight of the 
water filled pipe.

o   AWWA M11 Chapter 7 gives several spanning maximums which far exceeds those 
allowable in NFPA.

§  Take 8 Schedule 40 pipe as an example:

· The wall thickness is .322 inches.

· Per Table 7.1, this approximately nominal 5/16 wall thickness can 
have supports 45 ft apart...compare to 15 ft.

Follow-up questions:

1.   How can this; or can it be - reconciled in the refinery industry where 
most all piping is standard weight as a minimum, welded or weld-flanged, and 
all piping supports are calculated to at least 20 ft spacing?  While 
hydrocarbon product piping is not life safety related, surely, sufficient 
safety considerations have been factored into the 1.5X... safety factor for 
this type of pipe.

2.   Why does firewater (life safety) piping require safety factors and 
limit support spacing to much more conservative values  than that of piping 
systems actually containing flammable and hazardous products with little or no 
allowance for 'structural engineering' to take place?

Thank you,

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET
Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Federal Group,
PI GP Liaison
Burns  McDonnell
Minneapolis-St. Paul Office
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300
Bloomington, MN 55437
Direct: 952-656-3662
Mobile: 320-250-5404
Fax: 952-229-2923
www.burnsmcd.comBLOCKED::www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in MN


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RE: Missing pages in NFPA 30

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

Ask if you can use FM standards?


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Damien Shannon dshan...@pscl.ie 
Date: 10/23/2013  2:54 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Missing pages in NFPA 30 
 
Hi Galen.

Thank you for the response.

The project in question is for a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility. The
exact processing and liquids we don't know at the moment. We are meeting
with the project Fire Safety Consultants tomorrow. However they don't seem
to know too much about the sprinkler aspect (as we were told 'Sprinkler
according NFPA 30'). They have information on the liquids boiling
points/flash... so they are knowledgeable in other aspects, so it is likely
that they would be able to provide criteria, if we were able to say we need
to know x,y,z in order to determine head spacing, fire area requirements,
calc requirements.

The previous 'similar' projects that we have done have been per FM 7-32/7-14
which would have that type of criteria that we could point to. However NFPA
is referenced for this project.

Thanks again for any assistance.

Damien Shannon
Provincial Sprinkler Company Ltd.
Unit 4, Cork Airport Industrial Estate
Kinsale Road,
Cork, Ireland.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Taylor,
Galen
Sent: 23 October 2013 19:27
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Missing pages in NFPA 30

Help us to help you - Define processing for us. For instance: Is it an oil
refinery or a paint manufacturer.
Other terms for processing could be use, mixing  dispensing. 

Galen Taylor
County of Los Angeles Fire Department
Fire Prevention Engineering
323-890-4339
galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Shannon
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Missing pages in NFPA 30

So I'm not really missing pages, however some of the information I thought
would be contained in chapter 17 doesn't seem to be in there. There seems to
be extensive information related spacing, fire rating requirement and
hydraulic calculation requirements for the various storage of liquids within
NFPA 30, however there doesn't seem to be such criteria for Processing
Facilities.

Can anyone advise where one goes for criteria for an internal processing
facility utilizing flammable and combustible liquids (both miscible and
immiscible) in regards to:
Max allowable spacing of sprinklers?
Do you have to flow all sprinklers within a fire area (i.e. including
sprinklers under platforms, under obstructions, over the liquid pumps)?
What is the required calculation area and density? I see 3.3.2.2 defines a
Fire Area as 'An area of a building separated from the remainder of the
building by construction having a fire resistance of at least one hour and
having all communicating opening properly protected by an assembly having a
fire resistance rating of at least one hour. However, if you have a large
area and trench drains are provided to prevent spill fires, what is the
maximum area to calculate?

First NFPA job in 3 years and it would be one that I'm familiar not with.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. 

Regards.

Damien Shannon
Provincial Sprinkler Company Ltd.
Unit 4, Cork Airport Industrial Estate
Kinsale Road,
Cork, Ireland.

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Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

I completely agree with Ron concerning the soldering of copper sensing lines. 
This scope of work should be performed by a fire sprinkler contractor and not a 
plumber. 
You can gain these skills through a community college course 


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: rongreenman . rongreen...@gmail.com 
Date: 10/17/2013  10:45 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: jockey pump runs intermittently 
 
Plumb=ers don't get fire pumps. Learn to sweat, learn to braze. Both are
easy and keep plumbing hands off critical parts like FP sensing lines. And
both sensing lines are supposed to be attached to the main line between
discharge check and the main discharge control valve. Shut that control
valve jockey discharge control valve and if the same thing occurs you have
a leak in either one of those check valves, or, and sight unseen, I'm
betting the real problem is that sensing line check and it doesn't have a
hole.


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Douglas Hicks fire...@eoni.com wrote:

 The jockey is  2 or 3  years old, and is not leaking.   It was a cold
 winter, someone removed both electric heaters in the sprinkler room. At
 -15°F, things freeze, including jockey pumps.  And all 10 gauges, the air
 relief valve on the fire pump piping, the condensate drips, and other
 things I forgot.   I need to look at the check valve, the plumber did that.
 We don't solder copper pipes.

 -Original Message- From: rongreenman .
 Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:07 PM
 To: 
 sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.orgsprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

 So the leak is before any valves you shut off downstream of the pump. And
 there is a leak. If the check after the jockey pump discharge leaks the
 loss could be through the jockey packing. If the check after the FP
 discharge leaks the loss could be through the FP packing. You don't need
 much of a leak to lose pressure quickly. There's no direct (1:1)
 correlation. The check in the sensing line should have a hole in it, it's
 to buffer surges, and there should be two in each sensing line. And, if
 memory serves me, the pump is supposed to leak ten drops per minute so
 loosen the packing a tad, but that may be a best practices idea I've
 carried around for the past thirty years.


 On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
 **wrote:

  Sounds like the JP is set to come on WAY too low, for starters.  Refer to
 NFPA 20, A.14.2.6.4, which offers a recommended configuration of your JP
 and FP settings for pump up/pump down.

 Steve Leyton




 -Original Message-
 From: 
 sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.**firesprinkler.orgsprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org[mailto:
 sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.**firesprinkler.orgsprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
 On Behalf Of Douglas Hicks
 Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:36 PM
 To: 
 sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.orgsprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: jockey pump runs intermittently

 That says it. The jockey pump runs at 5 minute intervals, for less than 30
 seconds.  Start pressure is 90 PSI, shutoff at 135 PSI.   The electric
 fire
 pump leaks about a drop at 2 minutes. The wet pipes are under insulation,
 and no leakage  through the sheetrock ceiling. The jockey pump does not
 leak, nor does the jockey pump or sensing lines leak. There is one check
 valve in the sensing line, about 3 years old. Shutting the wet and dry
 system off together or separately  makes no difference in the intermittent
 operation of the jockey pump.  The jockey pump piping is 2”and about 12
 feet long. The sensing line is 3/4” copper x 15 feet.  Would a leak in the
 4” x  1’ pipe at the OSY valve be the problem?
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 http://lists.firesprinkler.**org/listinfo.cgi/**
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 http://lists.firesprinkler.**org/listinfo.cgi/**
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 --
 Ron Greenman
 Instructor
 Fire Protection Engineering Technology
 Bates Technical College
 1101 So. Yakima Ave.
 Tacoma, WA 98405

 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

 http://www.bates.ctc.edu/**fireprotection/http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

 253.680.7346
 253.576.9700 (cell)

 Member:
 ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

 They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
 essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
 

RE: County continues investigation into fire sprinklers, voluntary recall

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

Lol. 
Replaced with a more reliable rubber seal

It amazes me how people can miss these sprinklers for more than a decade


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Thomas Watt firesprinklerssaveli...@gmail.com 
Date: 10/14/2013  8:27 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: County continues investigation into fire sprinklers, voluntary recall 
 
http://www.islandpacket.com/2013/10/13/2736723/county-continues-investigation.html
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Flex Heads in Remodels

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

Quick question on industry practices concerning remodels. 
When we remove hard pipe drops and replace with flex heads in a remodel do we 
need to perform hydraulic calcs?


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Terri S. Leyton te...@tlcfire.com 
Date: 10/09/2013  6:35 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Sprinkler law dampens area construction 
 
Hi all,

Take a look at this article.
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_8396d406-302d-11e3-a026-0019
bb2963f4.html

It comes from Calavaras, CA.  (NorCal)



Sprinkler law dampens area construction

Residential fire sprinklers have been required since 2011 and add thousands
of dollars to construction costs.



I encourage everyone to put on their George Church cap and write a response
to this article.  We are likely contacting the reporter through our CA Fire
Sprinkler Coalition.

Please shoot me a copy of any responses.

Thanks!

T



Terri S. Leyton

Terri Leyton Consulting, Inc. (TLC Fire)

1444 Nashville St.

San Diego, CA 92110

C:  619.871.8450

F:  619.768.2487

www.tlcfire.com http://www.tlcfire.com/ 



Fire Sprinklers Save Lives, Property  Firefighters!



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RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

I would first rule out the use of clothes hangers 


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Phong - Indochine Engineering ph...@indoeng.com 
Date: 10/05/2013  9:33 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms 
 
Thanks Dwight,

It is at high level. 
But if it happened with a light clothe, should be no problem with the metallic 
side cover?

http://static.victaulic.com/assets/uploads/literature/40.11.pdf


Regards,
Le Vu Phong
Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
  





phong_indochineengineering



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dwight 
Havens
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:29 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

My first attempt didn't get through, but have you considered the common 
practice by patrons of hanging clothing on hangers from the sidewall sprinklers?

Dwight




From: Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com
To: Phong - Indochine Engineering sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms


Hello Phong,

What is the pressure in the standpipe feeding these when the fire pump is at 
churn?

From the Victaulic cut sheet for this head:
Max. Working Pressure: 
175 psi/1200 kPa FM Global
250 psi/1725 kPa UL
Factory Hydrostatic Test: 100% @ 500 psi/3450 kPa


Also a chance the heads were hit with something during construction after they 
were installed, Or the installer could have dropped a head.

Saturday, October 5, 2013, 6:35:07 AM, you wrote:

 The model of the head is V2710 (K5,6) of Victaulic


 Regards,
 Le Vu Phong
 Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
                      





 phong_indochineengineering



 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phong - 
 Indochine Engineering
 Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 5:29 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

 But it is still a chance that during the construction, some heads are 
 installed by another brand...


 Regards,
 Le Vu Phong
 Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
                      





 phong_indochineengineering



 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phong - 
 Indochine Engineering
 Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 5:06 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

 Exactly Steven.


 Regards,
 Le Vu Phong
 Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
                      





 phong_indochineengineering



 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steven 
 Scandaliato
 Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 4:50 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

 So I am assuming each floor is fed from the same standpipe and
 supplied by the same fire pump...and the same sprinkler head type from same 
 manufacturer??

 Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS
 520.971.2322 Cell


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phong - 
 Indochine Engineering
 Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 3:47 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

 Thanks Steven,

 The rooms are on different floors: L9, L14, L16, and L22.

 Regards,
 Le Vu Phong
 Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
                      





 phong_indochineengineering



 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steven 
 Scandaliato
 Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 4:46 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

 Le Vu,
 Can you tell me, were the sprinklers that activated in consecutive
 rooms...side by side or one right next to the other or are they on
 different floors or at different locations on the same floor?


 Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS
 520.971.2322 Cell

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phong - 
 Indochine Engineering
 Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 3:08 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Sprinkler broken in 05 star hotel guest rooms

 Hello,

 In a 04 year old 05 star hotel of Starwood in Asia, 

RE: Sprinkler protection criteria for bulk storage piles

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

This topic was addressed about a month ago on the Forum. 
The consensus was that it was outside the scope of NFPA 13 and that the 
Engineer of Record should be consulted   


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: David Bitton dbit...@questlosscontrol.com 
Date: 09/30/2013  7:56 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Sprinkler protection criteria for bulk storage piles 
 
I am looking at a recycling facility for construction debris that has large
indoor piles for wood, asphalt shingles, etc.  Storage height is to 25 ft.
The existing sprinkler system was designed based on the storage requirements
for solid-piled/palletized storage of Class III Commodities outlined in NFPA
13.  I believe that such storage falls outside the scope of this chapter.
However, I am unable to find any guidance elsewhere to address this storage.



Does anyone have any additional thoughts about the protection of such piles?



David Bitton, ing.

Quest Loss Control Services Inc.

Les services de prévention des sinistres Quest inc.

5100, rue de la Savane, bureau 200

Montréal, QC H4P 1T8

(514) 341-4545

www.questlosscontrol.com



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RE: Life Safety or Property Protection

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

Read 13- 1.2.1. References life and property protection (2010 edition)


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com 
Date: 09/26/2013  8:53 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Life Safety or Property Protection 
 
Hello Sprinklerforum,

  Ok the question has come up on a nursing home in the area by DECH (regulatory 
agency) They say a fire sprinkler system installed to NFPA 13 is not a property 
protection system. They are saying it is Life Safety Yes all the residences 
are ambulatory. Any hints as to the section of the code stating the NFPA 13 
system is Property Protection?

-- 
Best regards,
Charles  mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com

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Re: old 14.5k ecoh brass upright

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

We are in business to make money and on an issue like this we need to remember 
the words of our dear late friend George Church: keep it simple 


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: rongreenman . rongreen...@gmail.com 
Date: 09/24/2013  9:09 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: old 14.5k ecoh brass upright 
 
Something I've said a million times and Scan demonstrates very well with
very large Italian waving arm gestures is that the calc method is a model.
That all the numbers used are approximations, constants and variables, and
when actually accurate either based a fixed theoretical or on a snapshot of
actual performance from a test at a particular time, on a particular day,
in a particular year and are supposed to apply to a system at any time, on
any day, over a period of years. Add to that it's all based on a specific
number of heads operating at specific locations. I would need a much more
controlled environment than I can possibly have, with measuring instruments
of far greater precision, using factors such as temperature and actual
specific gravity of the fluid, and far more quality control at the pipe
manufacturers' facilities to be able to calc something to the degree of
accuracy that is sometimes suggested by forum members (and definitely often
by writers on the SFPE forum). There has to be a lot of slop built into
this model as it has to perform yeoman service under so many different
conditions in so many differing scenarios.

An example is an old Grinnell head that under flow x has a 9.0K, under y
it's 9.1K, and so on in tenths increments. That would be the paragraph
describing the head's characteristics. In the paragraph of how to apply it
within calcs the cut-sheet said to always use 9.2K. It later became, for
calculation purposes, an 8.0K head. Now nothing about the head itself
changed, just how one dealt with it in a calc sheet. Easier to understand
is the head that changed from quick response to standard response at a
certain height from the floor. Then there's the sidewall head I wanted to
use in a slight stretch of it's listing, based upon the response of similar
upright/pendant head under comparable conditions. The brainiac I talked to
this about at Tyco said he agreed that it should work and took it to
theTyco brainiac coven where everyone peered into their crystal balls,
agreed that it ought to work, and then officially said no. Wasn't listed
that way, they weren't going to get it listed that way, and they certainly
weren't going to stick the corporate neck across the chopping block. All
very reasonable, The point being there's a lot that is subsurface on this
stuff and to try to out guess the book is a waste of time. Put in
reasonably good data collected in the prescribed manner, note who gave you
any data that could be questionable that you weren't  able to personally
verify, follow the prescribed method of calcing, make no, or at least
insignificant mathematical errors, be able to demonstrate your use of
industry standards in your execution, and consistency of that execution
over time, and you can expect good results. Every time I've ever had a
problem I've found it due to something out of my control, except once when
I was in a hurry and had a result that I should have just known was
impossible. That and a couple times of wanting a particular solution so bad
that I manipulated it enough until I was able to justify that the wrong
solution that I'd come up with previously was now the right solution. This
thread started out that way with I want this but this is what's happening.
Happy ending though is you can have what you want but not for the wrong
reason you're trying to get agreement to.


On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Cahill, Christopher
ccah...@burnsmcd.comwrote:

 So let's say a hypothetical company (Globe) is putting out Listed 8.1
 heads?  Are they acceptable per 13 to use here in NFPA 13 land and
 calculate with 8.0?  I know it's a nominal k  and k's vary with actual
 flow.  But Greg started this showing a system that wouldn't work with a
 k14.5 vs. 14.  I also realize work and not work is theoretical and if the
 valve is open nothing else matters statistically (a little hyperbole so
 don't focus there).  I recently told a contractor no but am second guessing
 myself now.

 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Senior Fire Protection Engineer
 Burns  McDonnell
 8201 Norman Center Drive
 Bloomington, MN 55437
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com

 Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
 *Registered in: MN




 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland
 Huggins
 Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 2:40 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: old 14.5k ecoh brass upright

 Now how could it be Off the record while on a public 

Star Exhauster BB parts

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

I ordered a rebuild kit for a Star Exhauster BB and am having problems getting 
a rubber rebuild kit for this valve. 
Does anyone have a rebuild kit?

If this valve can't be rebuilt, what options are available? The system was 
designed to function with the valve. It already has an accelerator on the system


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com 
Date: 09/25/2013  8:20 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: old 14.5k ecoh brass upright 
 
Maybe the push to change was to stop any K-Factor War between manufacturers.
I have heard it said there was an RTI war and that is why the makers stopped
publishing the RTI in the data, i.e., this head activates the square root
of X feet-seconds faster than this one so it has to be better. But with
K-factors it is more noticeable because the numbers in the calc sheets are
all 2 or 3 decimal places accurate, so why shouldn't K be?

-Original Message-
From: Roland Huggins [mailto:rhugg...@firesprinkler.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 4:50 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: old 14.5k ecoh brass upright

I think it was the 99 edition when it was changed so it has been awhile.


Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.   ---  Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org





On Sep 24, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
wrote:

 ya ok thanks John, and Roland I was just looking at that section, thanks.
I
 guess the manufacturer publishes the nominal K-factor in their data, even
 though I have not seen it called that. It has been quite a while since I
 have used 5.62 or 8.2 instead of 5.6 and 8.0, and it seems this change
from
 specific to nominal is the reason!

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RE: Full Forward Flow Test Control Valves

[Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor]

I would place it in the same categoryas auxiliary drain valves and I don't 
think it needs to be monitored


Sent from my Galaxy S®III

 Original message 
From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com 
Date: 09/25/2013  1:33 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Full Forward Flow Test Control Valves 
 
Without going back through the rest of the mile long thread...

IF there is a control valve in the normally closed position for Full
Forward Flow Testing,  is it REQUIRED to be monitored?

Thanks,

-- 
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852
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