RE: FDC & Pump Suction

[Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum]

If you just cant get the FDC moved, maybe add a pressure regulating valve or 
relief valve to prevent system overpressure? Not the most-best way to go, but 
better than blowing the system apart?

Matt 


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mike Morey via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 2:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mike Morey ; Brian Harris 
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump Suction

Is cap it and put one on the building an option?  Generally that's what we'd do 
in that scenario as there isn't much else you can safely do because of the 
compound pressure increase potential with a fire pump.  Presumably you have to 
put a test header somewhere, just add an FDC as well?  Of course then hydrant 
distance comes in to play as well.  

Mike Morey
CFPS 3229 * NICET S.E.T. 123677
Project Manager * Fire Protection Group
Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company
7614 Opportunity Drive * Fort Wayne, IN * 46825 direct 260.487.7824 /  cell 
260.417.0625 /  fax 260.487.7991 email mmo...@shambaugh.com



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 3:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Brian Harris 
Subject: FDC & Pump Suction

 
BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR. 
 

8.17.2.4.8 (2016) States the FDC cannot be located on the suction side of a 
pump. If a pump is being added to an existing system and the current FDC is in 
the yard what is the best way to handle this?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bvssystemsinc.com__;!!FaxH778!Oa95dsu6TI9Hj7kAeXEmYhi-WKVOTMpEuNpYZClEf07ApkGuVdkxvIwISy803Y3I$
 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bvssystemsinc.com/__;!!FaxH778!Oa95dsu6TI9Hj7kAeXEmYhi-WKVOTMpEuNpYZClEf07ApkGuVdkxvIwIS5Dr4aGJ$
 >
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org__;!!FaxH778!Oa95dsu6TI9Hj7kAeXEmYhi-WKVOTMpEuNpYZClEf07ApkGuVdkxvIwISwwwknZk$
 

This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain confidential, 
proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege 
is waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If you receive this message in 
error, please  immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, 
destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender.  You must not, directly or 
indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message 
if you are not the intended recipient.
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flistinfo.cgi%2fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org=E,1,Lpx3tcRLpwiaxhRN_jgQvczpWoBVrpZ-_cMaxqSwti-hybygSBkkctPb9h9BqHqASuUDRZpIpde_X8ZfGbcUopm8WVscaRNi-wydT9N_rQ,,=1
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump Suction

[Mike Morey via Sprinklerforum]

Is cap it and put one on the building an option?  Generally that's what we'd do 
in that scenario as there isn't much else you can safely do because of the 
compound pressure increase potential with a fire pump.  Presumably you have to 
put a test header somewhere, just add an FDC as well?  Of course then hydrant 
distance comes in to play as well.  

Mike Morey
CFPS 3229 * NICET S.E.T. 123677
Project Manager * Fire Protection Group
Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company
7614 Opportunity Drive * Fort Wayne, IN * 46825
direct 260.487.7824 /  cell 260.417.0625 /  fax 260.487.7991
email mmo...@shambaugh.com



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 3:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Brian Harris 
Subject: FDC & Pump Suction

 
BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR. 
 

8.17.2.4.8 (2016) States the FDC cannot be located on the suction side of a 
pump. If a pump is being added to an existing system and the current FDC is in 
the yard what is the best way to handle this?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bvssystemsinc.com__;!!FaxH778!Oa95dsu6TI9Hj7kAeXEmYhi-WKVOTMpEuNpYZClEf07ApkGuVdkxvIwISy803Y3I$
 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bvssystemsinc.com/__;!!FaxH778!Oa95dsu6TI9Hj7kAeXEmYhi-WKVOTMpEuNpYZClEf07ApkGuVdkxvIwIS5Dr4aGJ$
 >
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org__;!!FaxH778!Oa95dsu6TI9Hj7kAeXEmYhi-WKVOTMpEuNpYZClEf07ApkGuVdkxvIwISwwwknZk$
 

This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain confidential, 
proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege 
is waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If you receive this message in 
error, please  immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, 
destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender.  You must not, directly or 
indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message 
if you are not the intended recipient.
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

FDC & Pump Suction

[Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum]

8.17.2.4.8 (2016) States the FDC cannot be located on the suction side of a 
pump. If a pump is being added to an existing system and the current FDC is in 
the yard what is the best way to handle this?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC & Pump

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Jamie,

We have a mall here like that, Just NO drains for each space..

Saturday, February 3, 2018, 5:49:12 PM, you wrote:


You say that, but we've had a fire marshal in the past try and require a 
control valve and drain on every branch line in a retail building, so you could 
isolate only the area requiring work. 



On Feb 2, 2018 at 3:12 PM,  wrote:

Why not proposed valves every 50’ or so to be sure that you can isolate down to 
the smallest section(s) of pipe for potential interruptions?   (SMH)
 
If the intent is to work on the feed pipe then how far down the line would you 
have to put the FDC to arrange it so it wouldn’t be interrupted?   Seems to me 
the AHJ is wishfully trying to design for a scenario that has an infinitesimal 
chance of occurring in the first place and that can’t be “pumped around” in any 
case.   Because such as scenario isn’t reasonably foreseeable, the standard 
(14) is mute in that regard.
 
SL
 
 
 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
No,
I have had to put an extra control valve for the standpipe feed at point of 
connection to the riser manifold in addition to the standpipe isolation valves. 
 The AHJ’s reasoning was that if work was required on the feed pipe it could be 
isolated and wouldn’t affect the other systems on the manifold.
 
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager
 
TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/ 
   
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:39 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
What valve are you referring to as “standpipe feed” control?  Are you talking 
about the isolation valves required in 6.3.2?   If that’s the valve you’re 
referring to, then no you do not have to pump downstream of that (those) 
valve(s).
 
The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.
 
SL  
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 4:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
Tom,
Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must also 
connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is that in 14? 
 I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in over the years and 
I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like the individual system 
control valves on the manifold.
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager
 
TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/ 
   
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
What Larry said..
And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.
TD
 
 
The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:
 
8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.
 
Larry Keeping
 
 
I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___ Sprinklerforum mailing list 
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org 



-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC & Pump

[Jamie Seidl]

  
  

 You say that, but we've had a fire marshal in the past try and require a 
control valve and drain on every branch line in a retail building, so you could 
isolate only the area requiring work.   
  

  
  

  
  
>   
> On Feb 2, 2018 at 3:12 PM,   (mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>  Why not proposed valves every 50’ or so to be sure that you can isolate down 
> to the smallest section(s) of pipe for potential interruptions?  (SMH)
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  If the intent is to work on the feed pipe then how far down the line would 
> you have to put the FDC to arrange it so it wouldn’t be interrupted?  
> Seems to me the AHJ is wishfully trying to design for a scenario that has an 
> infinitesimal chance of occurring in the first place and that can’t be 
> “pumped around” in any case.  Because such as scenario isn’t reasonably 
> foreseeable, the standard (14) is mute in that regard.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  SL
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  
> Dewayne Martinez
>   Sent:  Friday, February 02, 2018 11:42 AM
>   To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>   Subject:  RE: FDC  &  Pump
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  No,
>
>   
>
>  I have had to put an extra control valve for the standpipe feed at point of 
> connection to the riser manifold in addition to the standpipe isolation 
> valves.The AHJ’s reasoning was that if work was required on the feed pipe 
> it could be isolated and wouldn’t affect the other systems on the manifold.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>
>  Thank you,
>
>   
>
>  Dewayne Martinez
>
>   
>
>  Fire Protection Design Manager
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  TOTALMechanical
>
>   
>
>  BuildingIntegrity
>
>   
>
>   
> W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
>  Pewaukee, WI53072
>
>   
>
>   dmarti...@total-mechanical.com (mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com)
>
>   
>
>  Ph:262-522-7110
>
>   
>
>  Cell: 414-406-5208
>
>   
>
>   http://www.total-mechanical.com/   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  Steve 
> Leyton
>   Sent:  Friday, February 02, 2018 9:39 AM
>   To:   sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
>   Subject:  RE: FDC  &  Pump
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  What valve are you referring to as “standpipe feed” control?Are you 
> talking about the isolation valves required in 6.3.2?  If that’s the 
> valve you’re referring to, then no you do not have to pump downstream of that 
> (those) valve(s).
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 
> 14 Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  SL   
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  
> Dewayne Martinez
>   Sent:  Friday, February 02, 2018 4:29 AM
>   To:   sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
>   Subject:  RE: FDC  &  Pump
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  Tom,
>
>   
>
>  Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
> riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must 
> also connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?Is 
> that in 14?I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in 
> over the years and I didn’t know it was wrong.I thought it was just like 
> the individual system control valves on the manifold.
>
>   
>   
>
>  Thank you,
>
>   
>
>  Dewayne Martinez
>
>   
>
>  Fire Protection Design Manager
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  TOTALMechanical
>
>   
>
>  BuildingIntegrity
>
>   
>
>   
> W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
>  Pewaukee, WI53072
>
>   
>
>   dmarti...@total-mechanical.com (mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com)
>
>   
>
>  Ph:262-522-7110
&

RE: FDC & Pump

[Steve Leyton]

Why not proposed valves every 50’ or so to be sure that you can isolate down to 
the smallest section(s) of pipe for potential interruptions?   (SMH)

If the intent is to work on the feed pipe then how far down the line would you 
have to put the FDC to arrange it so it wouldn’t be interrupted?   Seems to me 
the AHJ is wishfully trying to design for a scenario that has an infinitesimal 
chance of occurring in the first place and that can’t be “pumped around” in any 
case.   Because such as scenario isn’t reasonably foreseeable, the standard 
(14) is mute in that regard.

SL




From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

No,
I have had to put an extra control valve for the standpipe feed at point of 
connection to the riser manifold in addition to the standpipe isolation valves. 
 The AHJ’s reasoning was that if work was required on the feed pipe it could be 
isolated and wouldn’t affect the other systems on the manifold.

Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager

TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/
[Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:39 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

What valve are you referring to as “standpipe feed” control?  Are you talking 
about the isolation valves required in 6.3.2?   If that’s the valve you’re 
referring to, then no you do not have to pump downstream of that (those) 
valve(s).

The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 4:29 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

Tom,
Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must also 
connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is that in 14? 
 I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in over the years and 
I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like the individual system 
control valves on the manifold.
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager

TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/
[Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

What Larry said..
And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.
TD


The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

Larry Keeping


I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Dewayne Martinez]

No,

I have had to put an extra control valve for the standpipe feed at point of
connection to the riser manifold in addition to the standpipe isolation
valves.  The AHJ’s reasoning was that if work was required on the feed pipe
it could be isolated and wouldn’t affect the other systems on the manifold.



Thank you,

Dewayne Martinez

Fire Protection Design Manager



*TOTAL* *Mechanical*

*Building* *Integrity*


W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072

dmarti...@total-mechanical.com

Ph:  262-522-7110

Cell: 414-406-5208

http://www.total-mechanical.com/

[image: Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]



*From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton
*Sent:* Friday, February 02, 2018 9:39 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* RE: FDC & Pump



What valve are you referring to as “standpipe feed” control?  Are you
talking about the isolation valves required in 6.3.2?   If that’s the valve
you’re referring to, then no you do not have to pump downstream of that
(those) valve(s).



The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA
14 Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.



SL



*From:* Sprinklerforum [
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Dewayne
Martinez
*Sent:* Friday, February 02, 2018 4:29 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* RE: FDC & Pump



Tom,

Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must
also connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is
that in 14?  I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in
over the years and I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like
the individual system control valves on the manifold.

Thank you,

Dewayne Martinez

Fire Protection Design Manager



*TOTAL* *Mechanical*

*Building* *Integrity*


W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072

dmarti...@total-mechanical.com

Ph:  262-522-7110

Cell: 414-406-5208

http://www.total-mechanical.com/

[image: Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]



*From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Tom Duross
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* RE: FDC & Pump



What Larry said..

And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the
standpipe unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves
at the base of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser
manifold, for example.

TD





The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from
NFPA 13-2013:



8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the
suction side of fire pumps.



Larry Keeping





I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on
the supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?

I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in,
instead of stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.

Thanks,

Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Steve Leyton]

What valve are you referring to as “standpipe feed” control?  Are you talking 
about the isolation valves required in 6.3.2?   If that’s the valve you’re 
referring to, then no you do not have to pump downstream of that (those) 
valve(s).

The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 4:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

Tom,
Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must also 
connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is that in 14? 
 I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in over the years and 
I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like the individual system 
control valves on the manifold.
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager

TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/
[Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

What Larry said..
And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.
TD


The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

Larry Keeping


I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Steve Leyton]

If leaving it at the hot box (backflow?) means that you’d be pumping into the 
pump, then yes you’d have to move it.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Kenneth Berman
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 5:04 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: FDC & Pump

If I have an existing FDC at the hot box and add a pump later, then the FDC 
must be moved to the pumphouse?



On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Dewayne Martinez 
<dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> wrote:
Tom,
Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must also 
connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is that in 14? 
 I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in over the years and 
I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like the individual system 
control valves on the manifold.
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager

TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>
Ph:  262-522-7110<tel:(262)%20522-7110>
Cell: 414-406-5208<tel:(414)%20406-5208>
http://www.total-mechanical.com/
[Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump

What Larry said..
And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.
TD


The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

Larry Keeping


I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC & Pump

[Travis Mack]

Yes. You can’t have an FDC on the supply side of a pump. So regardless of when 
they are installed, it needs to comply with the standards. 

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 2, 2018, at 6:03 AM, Kenneth Berman <thekennyber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If I have an existing FDC at the hot box and add a pump later, then the FDC 
> must be moved to the pumphouse?
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Dewayne Martinez 
>> <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> wrote:
>> Tom,
>> 
>> Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
>> riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must 
>> also connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is 
>> that in 14?  I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in 
>> over the years and I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like 
>> the individual system control valves on the manifold.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> Dewayne Martinez
>> 
>> Fire Protection Design Manager
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> TOTAL Mechanical
>> 
>> Building Integrity
>> 
>> 
>> W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
>> Pewaukee, WI  53072
>> 
>> dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
>> 
>> Ph:  262-522-7110
>> 
>> Cell: 414-406-5208
>> 
>> http://www.total-mechanical.com/ 
>> 
>>   
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Tom Duross
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> What Larry said..
>> 
>> And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
>> unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the 
>> base of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for 
>> example.
>> 
>> TD
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from 
>> NFPA 13-2013:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the 
>> suction side of fire pumps.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Larry Keeping
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
>> through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on 
>> the supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
>> 
>> I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead 
>> of stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jamie
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>> 
> 
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC & Pump

[Kenneth Berman]

If I have an existing FDC at the hot box and add a pump later, then the FDC
must be moved to the pumphouse?



On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Dewayne Martinez <
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the
> riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must
> also connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is
> that in 14?  I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in
> over the years and I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like
> the individual system control valves on the manifold.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dewayne Martinez
>
> Fire Protection Design Manager
>
>
>
> *TOTAL* *Mechanical*
>
> *Building* *Integrity*
>
>
> W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
> Pewaukee, WI  53072
>
> dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
>
> Ph:  262-522-7110 <(262)%20522-7110>
>
> Cell: 414-406-5208 <(414)%20406-5208>
>
> http://www.total-mechanical.com/
>
> [image: Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Tom Duross
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: FDC & Pump
>
>
>
> What Larry said..
>
> And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the
> standpipe unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves
> at the base of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser
> manifold, for example.
>
> TD
>
>
>
>
>
> The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from
> NFPA 13-2013:
>
>
>
> 8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the
> suction side of fire pumps.
>
>
>
> Larry Keeping
>
>
>
>
>
> I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.
> Looking through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the
> instillation on the supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the
> supply?
>
> I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in,
> instead of stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jamie
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Dewayne Martinez]

Tom,

Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must
also connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is
that in 14?  I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in
over the years and I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like
the individual system control valves on the manifold.

Thank you,

Dewayne Martinez

Fire Protection Design Manager



*TOTAL* *Mechanical*

*Building* *Integrity*


W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072

dmarti...@total-mechanical.com

Ph:  262-522-7110

Cell: 414-406-5208

http://www.total-mechanical.com/

[image: Consecutive Honors 2012-2017]



*From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Tom Duross
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* RE: FDC & Pump



What Larry said..

And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the
standpipe unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves
at the base of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser
manifold, for example.

TD





The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from
NFPA 13-2013:



8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the
suction side of fire pumps.



Larry Keeping





I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on
the supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?

I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in,
instead of stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.

Thanks,

Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: FDC & Pump

[Kyle . Montgomery]

I disagree. From NFPA 13, 2016 edition:

8.17.2.4.3 For multiple systems, the fire department connection shall be 
connected between the supply control valve and the system control valves.

Wouldn’t that be on the riser manifold? The handbook even goes on to explain 
why this would be the preferable arrangement.

Am I misinterpreting this?

-Kyle M


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: FDC & Pump

What Larry said..
And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.
TD


The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

Larry Keeping


I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Tom Duross]

and also allowed, the FDC check….

duh

 

 

What Larry said..

And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.

TD

 

 

The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

 

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

 

Larry Keeping

 

 

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?

I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.

Thanks,

Jamie

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Tom Duross]

What Larry said..

And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.

TD

 

 

The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

 

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

 

Larry Keeping

 

 

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?

I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.

Thanks,

Jamie

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC & Pump

[Jamie Seidl]

  
  

 Thanks everyone. I knew why, I just couldn't remember where.   
  

  
  

  
  
>   
> On Jan 31, 2018 at 4:34 PM,  mailto:jnor...@rlhfp.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> 
>   
>
> Last time I looked the FDC was not allowed on the suction side.That 
> requirement was in NFPA 13 under the FDC location section.
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> Jason Norton, PE – RLH Fire Protection
>
>   
>
> Direct: (661) 410-1334, Mobile: (661) 979-6301, Fax: (661) 322-6816
>
>   
>
> Mailing Address: PO Box 42470, Bakersfield, CA 93384
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> From:  Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
>  On Behalf Of  Jamie Seidl
>   Sent:  Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:30 PM
>   To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>   Subject:  FDC  &  Pump
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
> I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.Looking 
> through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation   on 
> the supply side.Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead 
> of stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Thanks,
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Jamie
>
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>  ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list 
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>   
  
  
 ___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Larry Keeping]

The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:

8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: January-31-18 4:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: FDC & Pump

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Prahl, Craig/GVL]

The FDC is for pressurizing the loop in the event that the main fire pump is 
out of service and you have to use the pumper apparatus.


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
Direct Extension  77540
CH2M is now Jacobs.
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: FDC & Pump [EXTERNAL]

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Matt Grise]

The pump will still boost its inlet pressure. If you use the FDC to boost the 
inlet pressure to 175, then the pump will discharge 175 + pump pressure. Could 
be too much.

Matt

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: FDC & Pump

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC & Pump

[Jason Norton]

Last time I looked the FDC was not allowed on the suction side.  That 
requirement was in NFPA 13 under the FDC location section.


Jason Norton, PE – RLH Fire Protection
Direct: (661) 410-1334, Mobile: (661) 979-6301, Fax: (661) 322-6816
Mailing Address: PO Box 42470, Bakersfield, CA 93384

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: FDC & Pump

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

FDC & Pump

[Jamie Seidl]

I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on
the supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in,
instead of stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Parsley Consulting]

Brad,
The gate-check-gate thing is similar to an RPDA with OS's on each side.
*Ken Wagoner, SET
*Parsley Consulting***
*350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
*Escondido, California 92025
*Phone 760-745-6181*
Visit our website







 ***
On 02/07/2017 6:55 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:


Lol.
I was thinking about the graphic Ken P posted yesterday, lower left 
with the gate, check, gate, and imagining the check being held open 
like it wasn't there, or only 85% there or whatever, and a Fire Dept. 
person wanting two checks in case one of them got held open by a rock.
Your hydraulic sense about this is amazing to me-- mostly because I 
had not considered it at all and don't have the faintest idea how to 
go about calculating it...

Yet!
And the gate, check, gate thing is like a pump city bypass, no? That's 
for if you have to take the check in to the garage for maintenance? 
Dig it all up and everything?


On Feb 7, 2017 8:36 PM, "AKS-Gmail-IMAP" > wrote:


Answers to your questions.


On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:01 PM, michael G > wrote:

Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a
separate feed back to the building in lieu of creating an
inefficient scenario as described?


Yes


On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Mitchell, Scott
>
wrote:

Is it a private or public main supplying the building lead-in
underground pipe?


Private



On Feb 7, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Brad Casterline
> wrote:

Is there a key operated gate upstream of the FDC they plan on
closing once they get set up, to 'check' the circuit?
I have heard some concearn by FP people about rocks holding check
valves open and creating the situation you describe.


No, but I can imagine what the sign at that PIV would say, “In
case of fire, close valve if you want more water, but only if
pumping to the FDC, otherwise keep valve open, so there is water.”
The rock fear is interesting. I hope the construction controls
don’t get so bad that we have rocks in the mains here.



On Feb 7, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Ed Vining > wrote:

Is there not a check valve or alarm check on the riser, upstream
of the FDC connection to the riser?


Yes

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO




___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org





___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Bruce Verhei]

For fire protection one of the most sought and least important measures is 
"arrival time of first unit". A much better time measure is agent (water) first 
applied, and when enough of that agent is applied to stop growth. 

It takes time to stretch lines, and apply water. Let's avoid a very long list 
of variables.

Of course I hear that automatic fire sprinkler systems often do well on both of 
the latter two measures. 

Best

Bruce Verhei 

PS If we won't to go further down this rabbit hole let's start another thread.

bv

> On Feb 7, 2017, at 20:40, Brad Casterline <bcasterli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> We all have our several talents.
> As a designer I thank Goodness my stuff only has to work for the first 15-30 
> minutes--- then the rubber meets the road.
> Google 'Average Fire Department Response Time'.
> 
>> On Feb 7, 2017 9:44 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Is it functional to pump from the discharge port of an engine to a suction 
>> port? Just like all other positions half of FM's are below average. 
>> 
>> Best 
>> 
>> Bruce Verhei 
>> 
>>> On Feb 7, 2017, at 12:01, michael G <m...@keyfps.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a separate feed 
>>> back to the building in lieu of creating an inefficient scenario as 
>>> described?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Michael Goodis
>>> 
>>> Estimator, Project Manager
>>> 
>>> IL#000635   NICET#135586
>>> 
>>> Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC
>>> 
>>> 3200 Mike Padgett HWY
>>> 
>>> Augusta, GA 30906
>>> 
>>> Office- (706)790-3473
>>> 
>>> Cell- (706) 220-8822
>>> 
>>> Fax: (706) 738-2119
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: Sprinklerforum 
>>> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Allan 
>>> Seidel
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 2:58 PM
>>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> Subject: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building 
>>> (sprinklers and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground 
>>> between the FDC and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed 
>>> this way as directed by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear, 
>>> water pumped from the fire hydrant into the FDC will return back to the 
>>> fire hydrant the pump is drawing from through the underground main. In this 
>>> case it is about 60 feet of 8" underground main. The amount of pressure 
>>> boost above the water supply pressure any pumper could possibly produce in 
>>> this setup is equal to the pressure drop in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning 
>>> the water back to the hydrant. It takes a huge amount of return underground 
>>> flow to account for a small pressure boost. Whatever water flow that ends 
>>> up going to the building is whatever the pump is pumping less the larger 
>>> return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water on the intake side 
>>> has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water on the discharge 
>>> side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some boost for 
>>> small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible for the 
>>> setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at play 
>>> also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle 
>>> FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that 
>>> outweighs its power inefficiency?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> 
>>> www.avast.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>> 
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>> 
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Brad Casterline]

We all have our several talents.
As a designer I thank Goodness my stuff only has to work for the first
15-30 minutes--- then the rubber meets the road.
Google 'Average Fire Department Response Time'.
On Feb 7, 2017 9:44 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Is it functional to pump from the discharge port of an engine to a suction
> port? Just like all other positions half of FM's are below average.
>
> Best
>
> Bruce Verhei
>
> On Feb 7, 2017, at 12:01, michael G <m...@keyfps.com> wrote:
>
> Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a separate feed
> back to the building in lieu of creating an inefficient scenario as
> described?
>
>
>
>
>
> *Michael Goodis *
>
> *Estimator, Project Manager*
>
> *IL#000635   NICET#135586*
>
> *Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC*
>
> *3200 Mike Padgett HWY*
>
> *Augusta, GA 30906*
>
> *Office- (706)790-3473 <(706)%20790-3473>*
>
> *Cell- (706) 220-8822 <(706)%20220-8822>*
>
> *Fax: (706) 738-2119 <(706)%20738-2119>*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Allan
> Seidel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 2:58 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground
>
>
>
> I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building
> (sprinklers and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground
> between the FDC and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed
> this way as directed by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear,
> water pumped from the fire hydrant into the FDC will return back to the
> fire hydrant the pump is drawing from through the underground main. In this
> case it is about 60 feet of 8" underground main. The amount of pressure
> boost above the water supply pressure any pumper could possibly produce in
> this setup is equal to the pressure drop in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning
> the water back to the hydrant. It takes a huge amount of return underground
> flow to account for a small pressure boost. Whatever water flow that ends
> up going to the building is whatever the pump is pumping less the larger
> return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water on the intake side
> has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water on the discharge
> side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some boost for
> small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible for the
> setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at play
> also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle
> FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that
> outweighs its power inefficiency?
>
>
> --
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Bruce Verhei]

Is it functional to pump from the discharge port of an engine to a suction 
port? Just like all other positions half of FM's are below average. 

Best 

Bruce Verhei 

> On Feb 7, 2017, at 12:01, michael G <m...@keyfps.com> wrote:
> 
> Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a separate feed back 
> to the building in lieu of creating an inefficient scenario as described?
>  
>  
> Michael Goodis
> Estimator, Project Manager
> IL#000635   NICET#135586
> Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC
> 3200 Mike Padgett HWY
> Augusta, GA 30906
> Office- (706)790-3473
> Cell- (706) 220-8822
> Fax: (706) 738-2119
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Allan Seidel
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 2:58 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground
>  
> I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building (sprinklers 
> and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground between the FDC 
> and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed this way as 
> directed by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear, water pumped from 
> the fire hydrant into the FDC will return back to the fire hydrant the pump 
> is drawing from through the underground main. In this case it is about 60 
> feet of 8" underground main. The amount of pressure boost above the water 
> supply pressure any pumper could possibly produce in this setup is equal to 
> the pressure drop in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning the water back to the 
> hydrant. It takes a huge amount of return underground flow to account for a 
> small pressure boost. Whatever water flow that ends up going to the building 
> is whatever the pump is pumping less the larger return flow. Any operating 
> condition assumes the water on the intake side has not turned to vapor and 
> whatever is carrying the water on the discharge side has not come apart. I 
> know this system can produce some boost for small flows at a huge waste of 
> power. I also know it is impossible for the setup to produce standpipe 
> pressures. There are ethical obligations at play also. My question is a 
> benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle FDC setup considered by 
> the fire fighting community to have some value that outweighs its power 
> inefficiency?
> 
> 
>   
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
> www.avast.com
> 
> 
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Brad Casterline]

Lol.
I was thinking about the graphic Ken P posted yesterday, lower left with
the gate, check, gate, and imagining the check being held open like it
wasn't there, or only 85% there or whatever, and a Fire Dept. person
wanting two checks in case one of them got held open by a rock.
Your hydraulic sense about this is amazing to me-- mostly because I had not
considered it at all and don't have the faintest idea how to go about
calculating it...
Yet!
And the gate, check, gate thing is like a pump city bypass, no? That's for
if you have to take the check in to the garage for maintenance? Dig it all
up and everything?
On Feb 7, 2017 8:36 PM, "AKS-Gmail-IMAP"  wrote:

> Answers to your questions.
>
> On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:01 PM, michael G  wrote:
>
> Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a separate feed
> back to the building in lieu of creating an inefficient scenario as
> described?
>
>
>
>
> Yes
>
> On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Mitchell, Scott 
> wrote:
>
> Is it a private or public main supplying the building lead-in underground
> pipe?
>
>
> Private
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Brad Casterline 
> wrote:
>
> Is there a key operated gate upstream of the FDC they plan on closing once
> they get set up, to 'check' the circuit?
> I have heard some concearn by FP people about rocks holding check valves
> open and creating the situation you describe.
>
> No, but I can imagine what the sign at that PIV would say, “In case of
> fire, close valve if you want more water, but only if pumping to the FDC,
> otherwise keep valve open, so there is water.” The rock fear is
> interesting. I hope the construction controls don’t get so bad that we have
> rocks in the mains here.
>
> On Feb 7, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Ed Vining  wrote:
>
> Is there not a check valve or alarm check on the riser, upstream of the
> FDC connection to the riser?
>
>
> Yes
>
> Allan Seidel
> St. Louis, MO
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP]

Answers to your questions. 

> On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:01 PM, michael G  wrote:
> 
> Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a separate feed back 
> to the building in lieu of creating an inefficient scenario as described?
>  

Yes

> On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Mitchell, Scott  
> wrote:
> 
> Is it a private or public main supplying the building lead-in underground 
> pipe?

Private


> On Feb 7, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Brad Casterline  wrote:
> 
> Is there a key operated gate upstream of the FDC they plan on closing once 
> they get set up, to 'check' the circuit?
> I have heard some concearn by FP people about rocks holding check valves open 
> and creating the situation you describe.
> 

No, but I can imagine what the sign at that PIV would say, “In case of fire, 
close valve if you want more water, but only if pumping to the FDC, otherwise 
keep valve open, so there is water.” The rock fear is interesting. I hope the 
construction controls don’t get so bad that we have rocks in the mains here. 


> On Feb 7, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Ed Vining  wrote:
> 
> Is there not a check valve or alarm check on the riser, upstream of the FDC 
> connection to the riser?

Yes

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO



___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Ed Vining]

Is there not a check valve or alarm check on the riser, upstream of the FDC
connection to the riser?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Allan Seidel  wrote:

> I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building
> (sprinklers and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground
> between the FDC and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed
> this way as directed by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear,
> water pumped from the fire hydrant into the FDC will return back to the
> fire hydrant the pump is drawing from through the underground main. In this
> case it is about 60 feet of 8" underground main. The amount of pressure
> boost above the water supply pressure any pumper could possibly produce in
> this setup is equal to the pressure drop in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning
> the water back to the hydrant. It takes a huge amount of return underground
> flow to account for a small pressure boost. Whatever water flow that ends
> up going to the building is whatever the pump is pumping less the larger
> return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water on the intake side
> has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water on the discharge
> side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some boost for
> small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible for the
> setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at play
> also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle
> FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that
> outweighs its power inefficiency?
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Ed Vining
4819 John Muir Rd
Martinez CA 94553
925-228-8792
Cell 925-787-0465
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Brad Casterline]

Is there a key operated gate upstream of the FDC they plan on closing once
they get set up, to 'check' the circuit?
I have heard some concearn by FP people about rocks holding check valves
open and creating the situation you describe.

Brad
On Feb 7, 2017 1:57 PM, "Allan Seidel"  wrote:

> I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building
> (sprinklers and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground
> between the FDC and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed
> this way as directed by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear,
> water pumped from the fire hydrant into the FDC will return back to the
> fire hydrant the pump is drawing from through the underground main. In this
> case it is about 60 feet of 8" underground main. The amount of pressure
> boost above the water supply pressure any pumper could possibly produce in
> this setup is equal to the pressure drop in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning
> the water back to the hydrant. It takes a huge amount of return underground
> flow to account for a small pressure boost. Whatever water flow that ends
> up going to the building is whatever the pump is pumping less the larger
> return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water on the intake side
> has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water on the discharge
> side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some boost for
> small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible for the
> setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at play
> also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle
> FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that
> outweighs its power inefficiency?
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Mitchell, Scott]

Is it a private or public main supplying the building lead-in underground pipe?

J. Scott Mitchell, PE
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
Mission Engineering
CNS Y-12 | 865-576-5258
CNS PTX | 806-477-5883


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Allan Seidel
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 2:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building (sprinklers 
and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground between the FDC 
and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed this way as directed 
by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear, water pumped from the fire 
hydrant into the FDC will return back to the fire hydrant the pump is drawing 
from through the underground main. In this case it is about 60 feet of 8" 
underground main. The amount of pressure boost above the water supply pressure 
any pumper could possibly produce in this setup is equal to the pressure drop 
in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning the water back to the hydrant. It takes a 
huge amount of return underground flow to account for a small pressure boost. 
Whatever water flow that ends up going to the building is whatever the pump is 
pumping less the larger return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water 
on the intake side has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water 
on the discharge side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some 
boost for small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible 
for the setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at 
play also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle 
FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that 
outweighs its power inefficiency?
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[michael G]

Is it not feasible to put the FDC on the building? Or on a separate feed back 
to the building in lieu of creating an inefficient scenario as described?





Michael Goodis

Estimator, Project Manager

IL#000635   NICET#135586

Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC

3200 Mike Padgett HWY

Augusta, GA 30906

Office- (706)790-3473

Cell- (706) 220-8822

Fax: (706) 738-2119







From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Allan Seidel
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 2:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground



I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building (sprinklers 
and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground between the FDC 
and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed this way as directed 
by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear, water pumped from the fire 
hydrant into the FDC will return back to the fire hydrant the pump is drawing 
from through the underground main. In this case it is about 60 feet of 8" 
underground main. The amount of pressure boost above the water supply pressure 
any pumper could possibly produce in this setup is equal to the pressure drop 
in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning the water back to the hydrant. It takes a 
huge amount of return underground flow to account for a small pressure boost. 
Whatever water flow that ends up going to the building is whatever the pump is 
pumping less the larger return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water 
on the intake side has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water 
on the discharge side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some 
boost for small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible 
for the setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at 
play also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle 
FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that 
outweighs its power inefficiency?



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

FDC pump in circle with hydrant on underground

[Allan Seidel]

I'm looking at an FDC setup on the underground main to a building
(sprinklers and standpipe) where there is not a check on the underground
between the FDC and the nearest upstream fire hydrant. This was installed
this way as directed by the Fire Marshall. To make this picture clear,
water pumped from the fire hydrant into the FDC will return back to the
fire hydrant the pump is drawing from through the underground main. In this
case it is about 60 feet of 8" underground main. The amount of pressure
boost above the water supply pressure any pumper could possibly produce in
this setup is equal to the pressure drop in the 60 feet of 8"pipe returning
the water back to the hydrant. It takes a huge amount of return underground
flow to account for a small pressure boost. Whatever water flow that ends
up going to the building is whatever the pump is pumping less the larger
return flow. Any operating condition assumes the water on the intake side
has not turned to vapor and whatever is carrying the water on the discharge
side has not come apart. I know this system can produce some boost for
small flows at a huge waste of power. I also know it is impossible for the
setup to produce standpipe pressures. There are ethical obligations at play
also. My question is a benefit of doubt interest. Is this pump in a circle
FDC setup considered by the fire fighting community to have some value that
outweighs its power inefficiency?
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org